1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: So at this point he then said to Castio, I 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: want to write a lesson to my mother, and I 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: also want to tell you that everything that's been said 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: about me is untrue. Charlie was a pest. I tried 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: to get away from him. There was nothing between us, 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: and that's the truth. 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from The Herald Son and this is 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 2: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's 9 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 2: forgotten characters. Today we return for part two of the 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,959 Speaker 2: story of the murder in the Treasury Gardens. Make sure 11 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: you listen to part one first. As we heard in 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: part one, after having their photos taken, holding hands and 13 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 2: pointing pistols at each other, Ned Feeney and Charlie Marks 14 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: headed for the Treasury Gardens in Melbourne. Charlie was found 15 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 2: dead that Ned emerged alive. We're talking again with Michael Adams, 16 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 2: host of the Forgotten Australia podcast, to tell us what 17 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: happened next. Just a warning, this episode can disturbing content, 18 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 2: including discussion about self harm. If you or anyone you 19 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 2: know needs help, you can contact a lifeline on one 20 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 2: three double one one four and you can find more 21 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 2: help lines in the show. Notes to this episode. So 22 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: what do you think really happened here? With so many 23 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 2: different possibilities. 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: I think exactly as we've heard, they went there to 25 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: do what they'd done in the photograph, to shoot each other, 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: to end each other's lives by mutual agreement. The prosecution 27 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: argued that it wasn't mutual suicide, it was cross murder. 28 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: So the judge could have actually directed the jury to 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: find him guilty of manslaughter, which still could have carried 30 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: a death sentence, or guilty not guilty by virtue of insanity, 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: which would have sent ned to the Arab Bend Asylum 32 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: for an indefinite period of time, perhaps the rest of 33 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 1: his life anyway, which may have been a fate worse 34 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: than death. However, the judge, as I said, directed that 35 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: the jury couldn't find insanity. They couldn't find manslaughter. It 36 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: was murder or nothing. They found murder. 37 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: So, Michael, just to clarify, did Charlie not shoot back 38 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: because he was shot before he got a chance to 39 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: shoot the gun, or because the gun failed, or because 40 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,279 Speaker 2: he got cold feet at the last moment. 41 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: We don't know. My presumption is it was kind of 42 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: a hey, let's do this on the count of three 43 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: two one, Charlie for whatever reason, gets cold feet, hesitates, 44 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: Ned does not. It's a split second thing and Charlie's shot. Now, 45 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: the Crown actually argued that Ned had agreed to this 46 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: mutual suicide pact, but it had actually decided he wanted 47 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: to be rid of Charlie and had used it as 48 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: an opportunity to murder him. So the Crown argued that 49 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: you know, Need had gone in first and shot Charlie dead, 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: wanting wanting to murder him, which again made absolutely no sense. 51 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: If you were going to do that, why would you 52 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: do it after having written a letter saying you were 53 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: going to commit suicide post for that photograph, do it 54 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: in the Treasury gardens in broad daylight. That argument made 55 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: absolutely no sense. So I think the most logical conclusion 56 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: is it was just a split second thing. Charlie hesitated, 57 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: Ned didn't. And the irony was that you know, Charlie 58 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: Ned was going to commit suicide it would seem anyway, 59 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: and Charlie had sort of said, you know, I'm going 60 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: to do it with you, Let's do it together. That 61 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: seemed to be his kind of contribution to the to 62 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: the plan and the terrible irony was that after the 63 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: you know, the smoke had cleared, Ned was left alive, 64 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: Charlie was dead. Ned was now to be tried for 65 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: his friend's murder. He was exposed. I mean, they wouldn't 66 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: say it out right because he'd not been charged with it, 67 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 1: but he'd been exposed as a homosexual. It was a 68 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: huge scandal, and he had, you know, two months now 69 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: to wait while he was you know, until he was 70 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: tried and then hanged. I mean, so it was just, 71 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure that Ned, even though he didn't 72 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: say anything, I imagine in his cell at night, would 73 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: be thinking, my god, I should have just gone and 74 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: done away with myself quietly, as I'd intended to do. 75 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: Charlie would still be alive, and I would never have 76 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: been exposed like. 77 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: This if it was a suicide pack that failed, though, 78 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: could Ned not just have turned around and shot himself 79 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: at that moment? 80 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: Well, this is the thing he could have And the 81 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: judge said exactly that. The judge said before sentencing, you 82 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: were a coward. The honorable thing to do would have 83 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: been to pick up the pistol and to shoot yourself dead. 84 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: Now there's a few problems with that, one, it's a 85 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: judge saying he should have committed suicide, and he's saying 86 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: it from the bench. You might think it, but judge 87 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: can't say, hey, you should have committed a crime, because 88 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: committing suicide was a crime. And he was actually saying 89 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: this before he sentenced this man to death, and he 90 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: wasn't going to be recommending mercy, so Ned was almost 91 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: certainly going to hang. I mean, the callousness of this 92 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 1: was incredible. It was so far beyond the pal that 93 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: he actually was censored in the press that the judge 94 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: was Justice Williams for being so callous and for basically 95 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: saying he should have committed a crime. The Justice would 96 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: not back down and he would not apologize. He stood 97 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: by exactly what he'd said. Now, the thing was, yeah, okay, 98 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: Ned could have picked up the pistol and he could 99 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: have shot himself. He was also in shock. He just 100 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: shot his friend dead. There were people there within moments. 101 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: And also his own gun had exploded in his hand 102 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: to the point where you know, parts of it were 103 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: in his clothes. That had been a project doll had 104 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: gone through his clothes and could easily have killed him 105 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: as well. The other part of the gun was in 106 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: a little creek nearby, so you know, three to two, 107 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: one bang, there's this massive explosion, your friend falls down 108 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: dead or dying a few feet from you. You're thrown 109 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: back on the ground. Whether he lit a cigar or 110 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: had a cigar or in his mouth, we don't know. 111 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, he could have done that, but 112 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: I think he was also probably completely in shock. 113 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: And there was someone only what one hundred yards away, 114 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: so would have got there within a matter of seconds. 115 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: There were gardeners on the scene, I would say within 116 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: a minute. 117 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And there were descriptions that he was quite calm 118 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: once people got there, but perhaps it was simply the 119 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: cigar that gave the illusion of a calm demeanor. 120 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: That's right. I mean, there were descriptions saying that he was, 121 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: you know, puffing away on this cigarette without a care 122 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: in the world. But there were other descriptions saying that, 123 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, the cigarette was just between the cigar was 124 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: just between his lips. He wasn't actually lighting it or 125 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: drawing on it. It was just there. So it could 126 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: have been something he had cleansed between his teeth at 127 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: the moment that he pulled the trigger, and it was 128 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: just still in his mouth. Another report said that he 129 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,559 Speaker 1: was appeared to be sort of dazed or in shock 130 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: or drunk, all of which would make sense, you know, 131 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: given what had just happened. So he was in custody, 132 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: I would say, you know, within a couple of minutes, 133 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: and he was being forcibly restrained. He was pushed back 134 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: to the ground so he couldn't get up. He wasn't 135 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: able to get to the pistol if he'd wanted to, 136 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, finish himself off. There are sort of little 137 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: unknowns in this, but I think the picture that we have, 138 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: the photograph, is actually what happened, and the descriptions of 139 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: you know, what he said initially the mutual mutual suicide 140 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: pact was the truth. After he was in custody, he 141 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: knew that he was going to be exposed. He knew 142 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: that his letters would be read, that they'd be entered 143 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: into evidence. He knew what people would say, and I 144 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: think the only and he also I think knew that, 145 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: you know, there was no way that he was going 146 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: to be acquitted, to enter into an insanity defense, to 147 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: try and argue that, to give interviews to doctors to 148 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: plead his own case, in court. Any of that, all 149 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: that would have done would be to open him up 150 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: to more exposure, more shame, more ridicule. The only control 151 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: he had left, I believe, was to say nothing. That's 152 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: what he did. So he was sentenced to after the 153 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: judge made his despicable remark that he was a coward 154 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: who should have sort of should have shot himself. He 155 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: sentencedin to death and said he would not recommend mercy 156 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: to the executive, which he didn't. The jury didn't recommend 157 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: mercy either, so it would then go to the executive. 158 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: They would review the case. They'd review the case, however, 159 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: under the guidance of the judge who'd just passed sentence, 160 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: and obviously he's going to steer them to the conclusion 161 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: he wants. There was a petition to reprieve him again. 162 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: It was, you know, based on the idea that he 163 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: was insane, but no medical evidence had been presented at trial. 164 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: It was all argument, it was all supposition. So the 165 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: executive rejected the appeal and the sentence of death was 166 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: to stand. So when he was sentenced to death. During 167 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: his incarceration, ned Fenny said nothing. He didn't respond in 168 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: any way, didn't react The governor of Melbourne Jail at 169 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: the time was John Buckley Castio, who in time would 170 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: be Ned Kelly's final jailer and final friend. He asked 171 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: Ned do you want a pen and paper? Do you 172 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: want to write to anybody? And Ned said no, that's 173 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: all he said. However, not long before the hanging date, 174 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: a letter arrived to him from his mother in Ireland. 175 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: And I think this reminded Ned that, you know, no 176 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: matter that he hadn't said anything, all of this was 177 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: eventually going to be in the Irish newspapers. Her son 178 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: the murderer, her son the homosexual, all of it. So 179 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: at this point he then said to Castio, I want 180 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: to write less to my mother, and I also want 181 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: to tell you that everything that's been said about me 182 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: is untrue. Charlie was a pest. I tried to get 183 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: away from him. There was nothing between us, and that's 184 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: the truth. So that's what he wanted known. On the 185 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: eve of his hanging. Didn't deny that he was a murderer. 186 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: He denied he was a homosexual. He didn't say it 187 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: out right, because no one said the actual words at 188 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: the time. He just said that what had been said 189 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: was completely untrue, and I think that he said that 190 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: because he knew that would also be in the newspapers 191 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: and that would eventually reach his mother. What he said 192 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: in the letter to his mother is unknown. That remained private, 193 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: but I think his last last thoughts on earth were 194 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: to spare his mother, give his mother a plausible denial 195 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: that her son had been homosexual. 196 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: I think the other thing that I found confusing about 197 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: this case in the past is as far as whether 198 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 2: they were gay or not, is that I've read that 199 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: they had fallen in love with the same women in 200 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: the past. 201 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I disagree with that well that I think there's 202 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: a lot more evidence to suggest that was untrue than true. 203 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: There was a woman who was She completely disappeared after 204 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: the killing. She was only found, i think on the 205 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: second afternoon of the trial. She was eventually located, and 206 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: basically she just said she'd known them and had been 207 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: friendly with them, and that's all she said. So she 208 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: didn't confirm any sort of relationship with either of them. 209 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: And there was this year, this sort of implication. A 210 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: guy came forward who claimed that they had been in 211 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: love with the same woman back in the day, back 212 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: in England, and there's just no evidence for that whatsoever. 213 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: I think what I think, and what I think is 214 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: that there were friends of them both, including Abraham Briscoe, 215 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: who were doing what they could to put it out 216 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: there that they were heterosexual, to spare Ned this shame. 217 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: And it didn't matter for Charlie. He was dead. So 218 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: Abraham Briscoe's sort of descriptions of the two men were that, 219 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: you know, Charlie had been sort of, you know, sweet 220 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: on Ned, but Ned had sort of been pretty stand 221 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: offish about the whole thing. I think that was basically 222 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: to one to try and make it seend that Ned 223 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: was heterosexual and be to spare Abraham Briscoe the sort 224 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: of shame of having what would have been considered a 225 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: gay bar at the time. I mean, if you read 226 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: the letters between the two, I think it's quite clear. 227 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: I mean, here's one from Charles to Ned in which 228 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: he said, I want to know if you like me 229 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: well enough to accede to the proposal I make that 230 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: is to remain fast friends, not friends today or tomorrow, 231 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: but forever. I do not attempt to deny, but I 232 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: am proud to say I love you as a brother 233 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: and perhaps more. I don't for I don't know a 234 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: brother's love, never having had one, and I know you 235 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: are fond of me, or at least I hope you are. Ned. 236 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: We are getting old enough to look out for the future, 237 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: so I want us never to part. 238 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: They're very strong words, but of course one of the 239 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 2: competing theories is that Charlie was gay and Ned wasn't. 240 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 1: This is true. You also have to remember that these 241 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: letters were absolutely dynamite. If they were found at any 242 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: point while they were alive, and there was anything overt, 243 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: it would be evidence of homosexuality and could be used 244 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: against them. So I believe they had to. They had to. 245 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: They had to write between the lines. So this is 246 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: again this letter from Charlie to Ned, the same letter. 247 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: If I go home, you come. If you go, I 248 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: come with you. But we neither have many friends we 249 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: care much for. I think we might do far worse 250 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: than be united in close brotherhood. If, as I said before, 251 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: you can, without any scruple say yes, do, I shall 252 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: be waiting in dread for fear of no answer. This 253 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: in the same manner, by writing hoping, please God, you 254 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: accede to my proposition, which i'll and believe me to 255 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 1: remain your sincere friend until death does part us. Now 256 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: that sounds like a wedding vow. I mean every word. 257 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: I mean every word and more than is here written 258 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: yours Charlie. And he added a PostScript, don't be advised 259 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: by anyone, but let it come from your own heart. Now. 260 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: Ned wrote back and said, look, you know you're going 261 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: to think I'm a terrible person, but you know we 262 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: need to separate. And he said I knew I would 263 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: have to separate from you, and I did not like 264 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: to mention it. So why he made this decision, Ned 265 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: went on, the cause of my determination must remain a secret, 266 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: and I trust that any little matters known to you 267 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: will also remain a secret. I mean, if there was 268 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: another woman involved, it would basically be I'm in love 269 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: with this girl, please leave me alone anyway, So it 270 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: would seem that they had sort of decided to separate. 271 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: But then on the twenty seventh of February, like this 272 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: is only a week before the event in the Treasury Gardens. 273 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: This is after they've been out drinking the night before, 274 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: And it's written from the ship from Charlie to Ned. 275 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: He says, my dear Ned, I was so glad you 276 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: got in all right last night. Not that I should 277 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: be very glad for you to leave, but I should 278 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: like you to leave on your own account. So he's 279 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: talking about Ned getting back into the hospital drunk before curfeme. 280 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: So he went on, now, as you are my friend, 281 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: don't It also seems that Ned had been again talking 282 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: about committing suicide, So Charlie writes, now, now as you 283 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: are my friend, don't do anything of the sort. If 284 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: you do, I shall not remain long. Charlie wrote Ned, 285 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: Now I know the reason of your determination, and that 286 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: we are what by the blessing of God, we shall 287 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: remain true to the core. I feel happy and shall 288 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: sail today with a light heart. So it reads like 289 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: whatever had been between them had been cleared up and 290 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: they made some sort of resolution. Charlie thought that the 291 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: future was bright. He went on, fancy the good reception 292 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: we gave each other in the morning and then at night, 293 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: and that you and I are the same as before. Ned, 294 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: for my sake, don't do anything to yourself. That to 295 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: me sounds very much like they were intimate. I mean, 296 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: I could be wrong. Charlie signed off, hoping you will 297 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: enjoy every blessing life can afford I close. I remain 298 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: yours truly, Charlie. So that was the last letter written 299 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: between the two of them that we know of. To me, 300 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: it sounds like that they had. It sounds to me 301 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: like Ned had been wrestling with his homosexuality and had 302 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: come to terms with it in terms of at least 303 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: admitting it to Charlie, and that they were going to 304 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: be together. If not in life, then perhaps in death. 305 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but certainly in Melbourne of eighteen 306 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: seventy two, everybody believed that they were homosexual homosexual the 307 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: and they didn't say it in the press outright because 308 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: Ned had not been charged with it, so to say 309 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: that in the press directly would be libel defamation. But 310 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 1: like John Castillo's diaries, because he recorded his diary at 311 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: this time, left it in absolutely no doubt that everybody 312 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: thought that this was the cause of the tragedy, And 313 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: certainly the doctor at the time, doctor Edward Barker, who 314 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: was the hanging Doctor, one of the most ghoulish characters 315 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: in colonial Victoria after Charlie's. When he did the post 316 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: mortem on Charlie, he inspected his anus to see if 317 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,959 Speaker 1: there was evidence of homosexuality, and he was champing at 318 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: the bit to do exactly the same thing when Ned 319 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: was hanged. 320 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: We'll be back after a short break to hear what 321 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: happened in the end, so stay with us, Michael. Now 322 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 2: that we've heard more of the story, I have to 323 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 2: go back and talk about these photographs again. So I'm 324 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 2: looking at them now, and if listeners want to see them, 325 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: they can google the names Edward Feenni and Charles Marx. 326 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 2: They're part of the State Library Victoria collection and will 327 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 2: also include the photos with the Herald Sun story that 328 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 2: accompanies this episode. So, as we talked about, the two 329 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: men are facing each other with the pistols pointed into 330 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: each other, and Edward's got the big bushy bush ranger 331 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: beard and Charlie's got the big bushy sideburns. So the 332 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: absolutely fabulous photos. But I'd love to talk about what 333 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: the men's intentions were for these photos. I'd sort of 334 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: imagined when we talked at the beginning of this episode 335 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 2: that perhaps they had arranged for these photos once they 336 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 2: were ready to be sent somewhere, But now that you've 337 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 2: told me that they weren't fully paid for, I'm curious 338 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 2: what they were ever expecting to happen to the photos, 339 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: because if they weren't paid for, who was ever expected 340 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 2: to receive them. 341 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: Us Yep, that's my theory. I mean, otherwise, you know, 342 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: they would have waited until the photographs had been developed, 343 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: gone back, paid for them, and taken them and maybe 344 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: sent them to their family. But by leaving them there, 345 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: knowing the contents of these photos and what they were 346 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: going to do, it's basically showing the world what they're 347 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: about to do. They're holding hands in one photograph, which 348 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: you know was not something that men did at the time, 349 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: and in the other photograph, they're pointing pistols at each 350 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: other's hearts, and this is like, you know, two hours 351 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: before they go to the Treasury gardens and shoot each other. 352 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: So I don't know that there's any other way you 353 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: can possibly interpret it than a declaration of love followed 354 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: by a suicide. Photograph. 355 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: They were partially paid simply because they had to. It 356 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 2: was the deposits, so the photos could be taken. 357 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my interpretation. I mean, maybe they had decided 358 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: that they would, you know, would go back in a 359 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,959 Speaker 1: couple of days, but they literally went from the photographic studio. 360 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: So with their guns wrote the letters in the winebar. 361 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: Abraham Briscoe saw the guns on them. They left and 362 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: they went to the Treasury gardens and did what they did. So, yeah, 363 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: it's really difficult to see it as anything else other 364 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: than a message to Melbourne and to us. 365 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, that's pretty convincing. So what happened in the 366 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: end there were no further hopes for an appeal or 367 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 2: a reprieve. 368 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: Yes, there was no hope for After the appeal was denied, 369 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: Ned wrote his letter to his mother. On the fourteenth 370 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: of May, he went to the gallows in Melbourne Jail. Castio, 371 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: as I said, you know, did as he would, as 372 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: he promised. He went to the newspapers and said, you know, 373 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: I want to say that Ned Feennie has said that, 374 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: you know, the things that have been said about him 375 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: are not true. So this execution, because it was recorded 376 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: by Castio in his diary, gives us a real insight 377 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: into what it was like on the gallows. I mean, 378 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: we have numerous dozens and dozens of reports by journalists 379 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: who were standing below and back, but Castio is up 380 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: on the actual scaffold, and he wrote you know, William Bamford, 381 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: the drunken, one eyed hang man who'd been in the 382 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: job for you know, thirteen years by this stage, and 383 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,959 Speaker 1: you know, botched probably half the executions that he conducted, 384 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: was was doing the honors this day, and he had 385 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: trouble getting the white cap over Ned's head. And Castio 386 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: wrote in his diary at such a time a second 387 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: seems like a minute, and a minute almost an hour. 388 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: He wrote that Ned, even though the reporters would say, 389 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: you know, from their vantage point that Ned seemed quite calm. 390 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: Castio wrote, he was evidently in a great state of 391 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: fear and shook a good deal. This I could see, 392 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: being close to him. The bystanders some little distance off 393 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: thought he showed little signs of concern, and predictably, of course, 394 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: William Bamford stuffed it up. Castio wrote, Baanmford did the 395 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: pulling tight of the rope a little too hard, and 396 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: when the bolt was drawn, the body scarcely fell fairly, 397 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: the rump catching the side of the scaffold and thus 398 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,239 Speaker 1: breaking the fall. Phoenie seemed to struggle much longer than 399 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: men who were hanged, usually due Dr Barker, however, styled 400 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: the horrible spasmodic movements as simply reflex and of no consequence. 401 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: So you know, that is horrific, but it wasn't unusual. 402 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: What was unusual was that Castio, who'd been watching men 403 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: die on the gallows for two decades now, because you know, 404 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: he'd previously been a governors of other jails, including Beechworth. 405 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: Castio was sort of like, wasn't going to take Dr 406 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: Barker's explanation at face value, so he said, why why 407 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: why do some men struggle more than others. Dr Barker 408 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: quote could not, however, answer my question as to why 409 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: some men, when executed were troubled with reflex movements and 410 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: others were not so. But doctor Barker was basically making 411 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: it up as he went along. But doctor Barker was very, 412 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: very happy because he had a fresh corpse. So Castio 413 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: wrote that Dr Barker and his medical students quote reveled 414 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: in the luxury of a fresh and healthy corpse. And 415 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: there was a special reason for this enthusiasm, as we've established. 416 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: Quote Barker exposed Feenie's rectum, and both he and doctor 417 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: Yule said it told of a vicious indulgence. I was 418 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: asked my opinion or rather to coincide in theirs, but 419 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: I declined as I had no experience of what a 420 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: healthy rectum would represent. So I think Castio thought that 421 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: Dr Barker was an absolute ghul, and this was, you know, 422 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: a terrible invasion of this man's privacy. This sort of 423 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: medical examination subsequently has been proved to be utterly junk science. 424 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: It shows absolutely nothing. But what it does show that, 425 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: you know, there was a real prurient interest in Phoenie's 426 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: sexuality at this time, and he was believed to be gay. 427 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: Then casteo Ads double Day took a cast of Phoenie's head. 428 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: So that's Joseph Doubleday, who was a hairdresser come phrenologist 429 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: who had a store on Burke Street. So he did 430 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: a cast of Phoenie's head. He also shaved his beard 431 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: and cut his hair off, and six days later Phoene's 432 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 1: cast was in the window of the Waxworks, and soon 433 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: after his effigy with his actual beard and his actual 434 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: hair was on display next to Charlie Marx in the 435 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: Chamber of Horrors. So you know, it really shows you 436 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: just what a gruesome little industry it was, and you 437 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: know what delight there was in Melbourne, the Melbourne population 438 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: at this time in punishing homosexual men and punishing murderers 439 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 1: as well. But it really seems that in this instance, 440 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: Colonial Victoria got to hand a homosexual man because there 441 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: were so many other cases. You know, if you do 442 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: a thought experiment and picture it being a man and 443 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: a woman in the Treasury gardens and one of them 444 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: shooting the other one in this love pact, and you know, 445 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: the other one being tried for murder, almost certainly there 446 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: would have been, you know, arguments for passion and love 447 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: and all of the rest of it, all of which 448 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: would have been allowed. I mean, homosexuality couldn't be raised 449 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: in Phoene's defense, whatsoever it was, you know, it would 450 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: basically make things worse for him. Whereas a heterosexual person 451 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: on trial could have argued, you know, passion, delusion, romantic madness, whatever, 452 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: Almost certainly there would have been a lesser conviction or 453 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: even an acquittal. So in many ways, I think this 454 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: was the hanging of a homosexual man because he was homosexual. 455 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 2: What an extraordinary story it is. 456 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: It's a really sad story. 457 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 2: And just when you're talking there about junk science. I 458 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 2: just wish we could be around in one hundred and 459 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 2: fifty years time listening to podcasters talking about some of 460 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 2: the things that we just assumed today are one hundred 461 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: percent correct and that we'll know in one hundred and 462 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: fifty years time are actually junk science. 463 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, that's right. 464 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 2: Any final thoughts about this case. 465 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 1: Look, I just think it's a strong reminder of just 466 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: how much homosexual people suffered in Australian history. It's something 467 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: we're only kind of relatively recently starting to recognize. Like 468 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, yesterday in New South Wales the premier made 469 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: a historic apology to homosexual people who'd been convicted. And 470 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: you know that it's forty years since homosexuality was decriminalized 471 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 1: in New South Wales. And you know, the commentary is that, 472 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people who were convicted didn't 473 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: live to see this, you know, historic day in which 474 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: you know, the premier apologized for this unjust law. And 475 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: when you look back at au Straightian history, as I'm 476 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: always doing, you see these cases going all the way 477 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: back to seventeen eighty eight, and it was pervasive and 478 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: not only you know the prosecutions, but also the sort 479 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: of you know, persecution and people living in fear for 480 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, two hundred years, which is just you know, 481 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 1: it's a part of history that we haven't even begun 482 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: to sort of reckon with in terms of the brutality 483 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: and the tens hundreds of thousands of lives that were lost, ruined, compromised, 484 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: et cetera, because you know, people were not allowed to 485 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: be who they were. 486 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for sharing another incredible story with us today, Michael. 487 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: Jen, Thank you so much for having me. 488 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. This has been In Black and White, 489 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 2: a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters, written and 490 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 2: hosted by me Jen Kelly, edited by Nini Young, and 491 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: produced by John Tyburton. You can find all the stories 492 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: and photos associated with our episodes at haroldsun dot com 493 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 2: dot au slash ibaw. If you've enjoyed this podcast, we'd 494 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: love you to leave a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. 495 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 2: Even better, leave a review. Any comments or questions please 496 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 2: email me at In Black and White at haroldsun dot 497 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 2: com dot au. Any clarifications or updates will appear in 498 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 2: the show notes for each episode, and to get notified 499 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 2: when each new episode comes out. Make sure you subscribe 500 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 2: to the podcast feed.