1
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,440
Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

2
00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:13,000
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, April eighth, twenty twenty six. The arrest of

3
00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,720
Speaker 1: Ben Robert Smith on war crimes murder chargers is reverberating

4
00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 1: through politics, with Tony Abbott and Pauline Hanson saying they

5
00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:25,200
Speaker 1: stand by the Victoria Cross recipient and other politicians declining

6
00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,320
Speaker 1: to comment on the case that's now before the courts.

7
00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,720
Speaker 1: Robert Smith is likely to strongly defend himself. You can

8
00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,360
Speaker 1: read all the fallout, plus the inside story of Brs's

9
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,960
Speaker 1: path to this moment right now at the Australian dot

10
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:48,080
Speaker 1: com AU. Australians know him as the affable mining billionaire Twiggy,

11
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,000
Speaker 1: but is Andrew Forrest, living a double life as a

12
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,800
Speaker 1: top level diplomatic powerbroker. Our North Asia correspondent Jonni Bishan

13
00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,600
Speaker 1: spent a while at the court of King Twiggy and

14
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:04,880
Speaker 1: Joy to discuss this charming, confounding character. Yan is here

15
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:16,200
Speaker 1: in just a moment. Yanni Bishan is The Australian's North

16
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,120
Speaker 1: Asia correspondent and he's been spending time in the court

17
00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,040
Speaker 1: of King Twiggy Andrew Forrest, the founder of the Fortescue

18
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,399
Speaker 1: Metals Group, one of Australia's richest people, and apparently the

19
00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,920
Speaker 1: kind of creator of world peace. What did you make

20
00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,680
Speaker 1: of Andrew Forest when you hung out with him in China.

21
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,640
Speaker 2: I mean, he's a very very nice man.

22
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,400
Speaker 3: He exudes warmth and welcome and he's accommodating.

23
00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,080
Speaker 2: He's gregarious.

24
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,120
Speaker 3: He wants you to have a glass of wine in

25
00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 3: your hand if he's got one in his hand. He

26
00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 3: was kind of foisting this glass of grange onto me

27
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,040
Speaker 3: while I was trying to work, which is fine. We'd

28
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:54,680
Speaker 3: all love a glass of grange while we work. But

29
00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 3: you know he'd say things like this is our first

30
00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,280
Speaker 3: drink together, isn't it. And you know he notices those

31
00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 3: sort of things. You mate, he calls you digger. Yeah,

32
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,080
Speaker 3: he wants to kind of emphasize that. Yeah, he's a

33
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 3: billionaire with nearly seventeen billion dollars in the bank according

34
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,560
Speaker 3: to our colleague John Stencil, but he's also just twiggy.

35
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,160
Speaker 3: You know, he's the mining guy, and yes he's made

36
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,200
Speaker 3: a lot of money, and yes he's gallivanting around the

37
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,680
Speaker 3: world and shuttling between the capitals and engaging in all

38
00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,919
Speaker 3: this kind of track one point five diplomacy.

39
00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,600
Speaker 2: But it's just a normal guy. But that's the question.

40
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,360
Speaker 2: Is he actually a normal guy? Though?

41
00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I spend some time with him recently, and I

42
00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,840
Speaker 1: noticed how he calls everybody digger. It didn't call me digger,

43
00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 1: because I think he's from that kind of old, slightly

44
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,600
Speaker 1: old fashioned school where you don't call ladies mate or

45
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,400
Speaker 1: digger or cobba or whatever. But he he's a good company,

46
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:45,639
Speaker 1: Isn't he very entertaining?

47
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,440
Speaker 3: He's wonderful company. And it's because he does exude a

48
00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,680
Speaker 3: kind of warmth. I mean, in my memory of our

49
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 3: interaction together, he's kind of red faced and smiling. He's

50
00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,960
Speaker 3: having a good time, and I think he wants the

51
00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,440
Speaker 3: people around him to have a good time.

52
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,000
Speaker 2: And you notice that as well with his staff. They're tired,

53
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:02,760
Speaker 2: they're exhausted.

54
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,800
Speaker 3: I mean, one of the most striking things about Twiggy

55
00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,720
Speaker 3: is that he's been doing this since five in the morning,

56
00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:10,880
Speaker 3: and when I spoke to him, it was after ten

57
00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:12,320
Speaker 3: o'clock at night, but he was still going.

58
00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:13,519
Speaker 2: He was great.

59
00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 3: His staff were pale of face and tired, and they

60
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,000
Speaker 3: hadn't eaten in many hours, and he'd been moving between

61
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,360
Speaker 3: half a dozen to a dozen different meetings and then

62
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 3: hosting a party in his hotel suite, and he looked great.

63
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 2: And it's incredible. It's actually it's actually quite inspiring.

64
00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,519
Speaker 1: Really. Now we know he spends a lot of time

65
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,640
Speaker 1: in China, but what was he doing on this particular

66
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: occasion when you went to talk to him.

67
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,480
Speaker 3: So he comes to China numerous times a year, but

68
00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,080
Speaker 3: for this particular occasion, he was in China for two

69
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,880
Speaker 3: major annual events. One of them is the boll Our Forum,

70
00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 3: which is where I spoke to him, and that's a

71
00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 3: meeting of you might liken it to a meeting of

72
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:56,040
Speaker 3: government officials and leaders from all over the Asia Pacific.

73
00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:02,840
Speaker 4: China is going green, it understands what is happening with

74
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,800
Speaker 4: climate change, but also because economically it makes huge sense

75
00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 4: for China.

76
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,960
Speaker 3: The other meeting that he had attended was called the

77
00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 3: China Development Forum, and that had happened a couple of

78
00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 3: days earlier, and.

79
00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,800
Speaker 2: That happens in Beijing. It's a very big deal.

80
00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,560
Speaker 3: It's attended by Apple CEO Tim Cook and the CEOs

81
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,600
Speaker 3: and chairman of Fortune five hundred companies, and Twiggy attends

82
00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,000
Speaker 3: that event and he really delineates between the two events

83
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,240
Speaker 3: by saying that the China Development Forum, or what we

84
00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,599
Speaker 3: call CDF, that's a business forum, that's for business, that's

85
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,400
Speaker 3: for corporate what he called.

86
00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 2: The corporate world of the world.

87
00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 3: And the bo Ole Forum is really about government. It's

88
00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,599
Speaker 3: about dialogue, it's about the region, it's about the Asia

89
00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,799
Speaker 3: Pacific voice, and it's regarded as a kind of counterweight

90
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,520
Speaker 3: to what Davos is to the Western world. So these

91
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,320
Speaker 3: are two very important occasions that he sees fit to

92
00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:54,800
Speaker 3: fly into on his private jet with a very large

93
00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,440
Speaker 3: retiny of staff who are trailing him at all times.

94
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,559
Speaker 1: There's a mess expense to doing something like that, though,

95
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,920
Speaker 1: like he's running a very big and successful business, he's

96
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:05,640
Speaker 1: got a lot of iron ore to dig out of

97
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 1: the ground. He's still trying to make green hydrogen work.

98
00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,080
Speaker 1: Why would he spend what must be millions of dollars

99
00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,479
Speaker 1: a year going to these sort of annual talk fests,

100
00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,080
Speaker 1: which you and I've been to the MELI. Absolutely, there

101
00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 1: can be absolutely deadly boring.

102
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,640
Speaker 3: Oh they'll put me into a deep rim within a

103
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,480
Speaker 3: couple of minutes of being there. But they are important,

104
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,120
Speaker 3: and particularly for someone like Andrew Forest, these conferences in

105
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,080
Speaker 3: China are of pivotal importance because you have to remember,

106
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,919
Speaker 3: almost his entire commercial interest lies in China. He borrows

107
00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,880
Speaker 3: money from Chinese banks, his supply network is integrated in China,

108
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 3: his customers are in China. The decarbonization of his empire

109
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,240
Speaker 3: is rooted in Chinese technology. So he relies on these

110
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,800
Speaker 3: events to inform what he does at ford esqu commercially.

111
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,080
Speaker 3: I also think he likes being in China, and he

112
00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 3: likes Chinese people, and he just enjoys being there. But

113
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 3: this is a very important opportunity for him to meet

114
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,240
Speaker 3: with his clients, meet with his suppliers, meet with executives,

115
00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,000
Speaker 3: and meet with people in government, which by the way,

116
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,720
Speaker 3: not all mining officials were able to do. I will note,

117
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,760
Speaker 3: for example, this year BHP was not in attendance at

118
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,000
Speaker 3: the Chinese Development Forum.

119
00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,920
Speaker 2: They weren't at Boao. You have to wonder why.

120
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,680
Speaker 1: He seems to also want to kind of step into

121
00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,839
Speaker 1: a world where people like him don't normally go the

122
00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,000
Speaker 1: kind of quiet world of diplomacy. He wants to be

123
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,160
Speaker 1: making speeches at these kinds of events where normally you

124
00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,440
Speaker 1: might hear from the head of a think tank or

125
00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,960
Speaker 1: some sort of un official, and at the China Development

126
00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,640
Speaker 1: Forum he made some comments about the Iran War that

127
00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,480
Speaker 1: ruffle feathers. It's fair to say, what did he say

128
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:40,320
Speaker 1: and why?

129
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this was just absolutely fascinating.

130
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,479
Speaker 3: And one of the great things about writing about Andrew

131
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,599
Speaker 3: Forrest is that he's unpredictable and you don't know what

132
00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,800
Speaker 3: he's going to say. So two some days ago he's

133
00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,720
Speaker 3: an attendee at the China Development Forum, this exclusive, prestigious event,

134
00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,720
Speaker 3: and he's a speaker on a green energy panel with

135
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,680
Speaker 3: other CEOs and leaders, and each of them get about

136
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,599
Speaker 3: seven minutes to get up and have their say in

137
00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,000
Speaker 3: their allocated time. There's even a Chinese official who stands

138
00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 3: down the back with a big red sign which she

139
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 3: holds up when they're running out of time, a bit.

140
00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:13,920
Speaker 2: Like at the Oscars. It's quite funny.

141
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,000
Speaker 3: So the panelists include people like Twiggy and the CEO

142
00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,720
Speaker 3: of Anglo American and typically the CEOs get up and

143
00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,760
Speaker 3: they talk about things of relevance to their business. They're

144
00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,240
Speaker 3: talking about their business, they're not talking about geopolitics. But

145
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,360
Speaker 3: Twiggy gets up, he has seven minutes, and the first

146
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,600
Speaker 3: five and a half minutes or so all he does

147
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:38,560
Speaker 3: is talk about America, Iran, what's happening in Iran, fossil fuels,

148
00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 3: and what he calls the whole lot of More. Now,

149
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 3: for anyone who doesn't know what the whole lot more is,

150
00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,840
Speaker 3: I mean that's the Ukrainian word for the man made

151
00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,000
Speaker 3: starvation campaign that's Stalin embarked upon in the nineteen thirties.

152
00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:51,880
Speaker 3: So he's getting up there and he's saying these things

153
00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,760
Speaker 3: about what's happening in Iran. And it's not that what

154
00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,040
Speaker 3: he's saying is factually incorrect or logically doesn't stack up.

155
00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,200
Speaker 3: The thing about Andrew Forrest is that he doesn't necessarily

156
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,280
Speaker 3: say things that are wrong, but his timing and the

157
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,520
Speaker 3: optics of what he's saying are questionable. He's making these

158
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,040
Speaker 3: remarks in a room where it's full of Chinese officials.

159
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 3: He's saying them in Beijing, and for all intents and purposes,

160
00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,400
Speaker 3: one might ask, what is he trying to signal here?

161
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,520
Speaker 3: Did he, for example, tell the Chinese that he was

162
00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,480
Speaker 3: going to make these remarks? Is he trying to signal

163
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,960
Speaker 3: to them that there's some kind of a geopolitical alignment?

164
00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,680
Speaker 3: And as for the remarks themselves, if I can just

165
00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,840
Speaker 3: actually answer the question you asked.

166
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:33,959
Speaker 2: What he was saying was is that.

167
00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,960
Speaker 3: If America was intending to Bomberanian power plans, as they

168
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,800
Speaker 3: were thinking about doing at the time, and which they

169
00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,240
Speaker 3: may still be thinking about doing, the consequence would be

170
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:44,240
Speaker 3: mass civilian death.

171
00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 2: And that was the point he was making.

172
00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,280
Speaker 3: But in making that point, it also sounded at a

173
00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,000
Speaker 3: pinch that he might be against the wall and potentially

174
00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,120
Speaker 3: anti American, and his stance on this seemed to mirror

175
00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,840
Speaker 3: some of the Chinese Foreign Ministry comments about the warrior

176
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:02,800
Speaker 3: in Iran, which is that the Americans shouldn't be there,

177
00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 3: the Israeli shouldn't be there, This should not be happening.

178
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:05,439
Speaker 2: There should not be.

179
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,439
Speaker 3: A war in Iran, And that was something I really

180
00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:08,480
Speaker 3: wanted to nail down with him.

181
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,839
Speaker 1: And it's going even further than that, and suggesting or

182
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,640
Speaker 1: implying that there's a point at which this tips over

183
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,600
Speaker 1: into being in genocide, right, because that's what the word

184
00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,400
Speaker 1: holomidol conjures are it does.

185
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,320
Speaker 3: I mean, what he was effectively accusing the Americans of

186
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,480
Speaker 3: contemplating was a genocide, was a war crime. And so

187
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,079
Speaker 3: when I put that to him, he was very much

188
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,640
Speaker 3: of the opinion that I shouldn't be politicizing those comments.

189
00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,679
Speaker 3: It was actually me who was misunderstanding him. What he

190
00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,120
Speaker 3: was going to do was make a point about fossil fuels.

191
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 3: Fossil fuels, as he says, a weapon of war. This

192
00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,480
Speaker 3: was a war over fossil fuels. We've had other wars

193
00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,800
Speaker 3: over fossil fuels. They don't end very well. That was

194
00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 3: the point he was making, And to be fair, I

195
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,319
Speaker 3: think I take those remarks in good faith. I think

196
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:51,320
Speaker 3: that's probably what he meant.

197
00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:52,160
Speaker 2: Genuinely.

198
00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,560
Speaker 5: Are you opposed or are you in favor to military

199
00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,240
Speaker 5: action against the Uranian regime as it stands, because the

200
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,040
Speaker 5: comments that I heard from on Sunday sounded anti American

201
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:04,120
Speaker 5: in there.

202
00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:04,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's in new sentiment.

203
00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,880
Speaker 4: They were historic, and I don't think you should politicize them,

204
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 4: and I certainly don't think you'd draw a bow that

205
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,439
Speaker 4: anyone from China had any influence on them, because they

206
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:16,040
Speaker 4: were the most well.

207
00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,040
Speaker 1: Bombing the power plants in Iran would send Iran back

208
00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,920
Speaker 1: to the pre industrial era. Of course, Suddenly people would

209
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,320
Speaker 1: be unable to light their homes, unable to heat themselves,

210
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,880
Speaker 1: unable to wash their clothes, unable to get food, you know,

211
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,000
Speaker 1: you would very quickly see hunger problems and retreat to

212
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,360
Speaker 1: social massive social disorder.

213
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,840
Speaker 2: So that is true, right, Really, of course it's true.

214
00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,720
Speaker 3: What he's saying is not factually incorrect, and he's coming

215
00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 3: at this from a place where he's been observing very

216
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,080
Speaker 3: closely what's been going on in Ukraine. I noted in

217
00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,160
Speaker 3: the piece that I wrote that he wears a Ukraine

218
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,280
Speaker 3: pin on his lapel. He wears it everywhere. I'm not

219
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:55,760
Speaker 3: aware of him ever taking it off. I know he's

220
00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 3: been asked at times to take it off in certain

221
00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,079
Speaker 3: locations he's refused to do so. I mean, this is

222
00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,679
Speaker 3: a man who cares very very strongly about what is

223
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:06,600
Speaker 3: happening in Ukraine. Conversely, he also said throughout our interview

224
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,000
Speaker 3: at one point, you know, I have no particular allegiance

225
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,880
Speaker 3: to Ukraine, which I thought was striking considering he was

226
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,880
Speaker 3: wearing the flag on his Well, I didn't really understand

227
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:15,760
Speaker 3: the point he was making.

228
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,960
Speaker 4: There, And I've said, well, actually I'm close to Ukraine.

229
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,520
Speaker 4: I've studied that history, I've seen what's happened. Yeah, I've

230
00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,360
Speaker 4: born this bad since the tanks rolled over the water,

231
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,960
Speaker 4: not because I've got any great lauty to Ukraine, but

232
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,720
Speaker 4: I just can't stand what happened.

233
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,320
Speaker 3: This is the thing about Twiggy. It's that he's kind

234
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,760
Speaker 3: of this ball of contradictions. He has all this energy

235
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,920
Speaker 3: and it seems to be sprouting outwards in all these

236
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,000
Speaker 3: different locations. He says one thing, and he speaks with

237
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,000
Speaker 3: such conviction, but then he'll say something else that seems

238
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,719
Speaker 3: to undermine or undercut that conviction, although he still does

239
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,040
Speaker 3: sound believable at times.

240
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,000
Speaker 2: He's an enigmatic figure.

241
00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so when you try to work out whose

242
00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,800
Speaker 1: side is he on. Okay, Now he's saying that Iran,

243
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 1: which is an ally or a partner of China, should

244
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,560
Speaker 1: be bombed by the United States because that would be

245
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:03,440
Speaker 1: a war crime.

246
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:05,400
Speaker 2: And then when you ask him about.

247
00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,200
Speaker 1: It, he says he doesn't really have a view about

248
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,720
Speaker 1: the war itself in Iran. He said, no, I don't

249
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:12,760
Speaker 1: have to have a view on this.

250
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,559
Speaker 4: What Iran needs to do is recognize the state of Israel.

251
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:23,760
Speaker 4: It needs to stay peacefully. Women's borders, I don't agree

252
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:30,640
Speaker 4: with transgressing borders from Taiwan to Iran's crazy view against Israel.

253
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 2: That's all going to stop.

254
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,240
Speaker 1: So then it's like, well, maybe he's not on China's

255
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,920
Speaker 1: side at all, because invoking Taiwan in that way, which

256
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,079
Speaker 1: China considers to be a rogue province or a state,

257
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,840
Speaker 1: just like Tasmania. They often make that comparison for Australia.

258
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,839
Speaker 1: You know, he's saying it would be wrong for China

259
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,960
Speaker 1: to take this province back. So whose side is he?

260
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:53,960
Speaker 2: Well, and that's an interesting point.

261
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,040
Speaker 3: Is he actually saying it would be wrong for China

262
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:58,960
Speaker 3: to do that, or is what he's saying that he

263
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:04,000
Speaker 3: just doesn't agree with transgressing borders militarily. And this is

264
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,960
Speaker 3: the way that these remarks that he makes can be

265
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,280
Speaker 3: very finely passed. And it's either because he's an absolute

266
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,640
Speaker 3: genius or because he kind of misspeaks and then accuses

267
00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:12,520
Speaker 3: you of getting it wrong.

268
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,520
Speaker 1: Well, China would say there is no border, that China

269
00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,280
Speaker 1: and Taiwana one country, just like Australia and Tasmania, and

270
00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,480
Speaker 1: that China can do absolutely whatever it wants, and if

271
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,040
Speaker 1: it decides to send troops from the People's Liberation Army

272
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,439
Speaker 1: into Taiwan, then that's not an invasion, correct.

273
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 3: I Mean, there's something I've been thinking about ever since

274
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,120
Speaker 3: I spoke to him, was that he has this particular

275
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,720
Speaker 3: bugbear with transgressing borders. Okay, well, another recent instance of

276
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,480
Speaker 3: transgressed borders was when Hamas crossed the border into Israel

277
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:41,240
Speaker 3: or October seven.

278
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,359
Speaker 2: I don't recall seeing him wearing an Israeli.

279
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,760
Speaker 3: Flag on is lapel. It's not because I query his

280
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 3: motives and intentions. It's not that I don't think he

281
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,120
Speaker 3: really cares about Ukraine. It's just that sometimes these sentiments

282
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,000
Speaker 3: come off as selective, or they could appear I'm not

283
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,760
Speaker 3: accusing him of this, but it could appear self serving.

284
00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,680
Speaker 3: And again I come back to this issue with China.

285
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,959
Speaker 3: It's like, why did you make those remarks in Beijing

286
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 3: on this particular occasion when you haven't made these remarks

287
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,080
Speaker 3: in the weeks leading up to it. Like there's a

288
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,960
Speaker 3: timing factor that needs to be taken into account here.

289
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,360
Speaker 3: And the question I really wanted to know was, is

290
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,080
Speaker 3: this because you have such a deep commercial stake in

291
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,440
Speaker 3: China through Fortescue, this really really matters. But when you

292
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,640
Speaker 3: put that to him, what he'll say is no, no, no,

293
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,800
Speaker 3: You've got this all wrong. You know, I just care

294
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,800
Speaker 3: about borders being transcripts. I just don't want to see

295
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,640
Speaker 3: a lot of people die in your arm. And then

296
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,880
Speaker 3: when I say back, okay, well let's just nail this down.

297
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 3: Is there any scenario in which you would support a

298
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,920
Speaker 3: military campaign in your arm He'll say, well, I don't

299
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:36,600
Speaker 3: need to have a view on that.

300
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:38,960
Speaker 2: It's like, well, actually, I think you do need.

301
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,360
Speaker 3: To have a view on that, because your signaling is

302
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:42,520
Speaker 3: you don't support this war.

303
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,120
Speaker 1: And then he also raises with you an initiative that

304
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,760
Speaker 1: he says that he has created, which is a sort

305
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,280
Speaker 1: of behind the scenes dialogue between China and America about

306
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:58,120
Speaker 1: how to control the use of AI in military operations. Now,

307
00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,560
Speaker 1: of course, this has blown up recently to a massive

308
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,040
Speaker 1: dispute involving the Pentagon Andthropic and open AI.

309
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:05,440
Speaker 2: That's a whole other story.

310
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:11,400
Speaker 1: Andrew Forrest is saying he's been masterminding I suppose behind

311
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,720
Speaker 1: the scenes talks between China and America about having some

312
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 1: sort of mutual standards on this kind of thing. Now,

313
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,560
Speaker 1: if that is true, that is a remarkable diplomatic achievement.

314
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 2: Isn't it.

315
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,800
Speaker 3: It is quite a remarkable diplomatic achievement. And he appears

316
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,720
Speaker 3: to want people to know about this. He will freely

317
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,960
Speaker 3: admit he has organized and funded this.

318
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,640
Speaker 4: So in twenty nineteen, I became incredibly worried about artificial

319
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:43,760
Speaker 4: intelligence in military applications, and I approached the Americans and

320
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,520
Speaker 4: the Chinese and said, you guys got to get in

321
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 4: a room. And it survived the Trump one presidency, it

322
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,280
Speaker 4: survived the Biden presidency, and it now rolls with the

323
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 4: Trump two presidency. Despite all the rhetoric, Beijing is represented

324
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:05,040
Speaker 4: by Shinmi University. It's public brookingstins should represents the Pentagon.

325
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,800
Speaker 4: They made very regularly. I organize that and fund all that,

326
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 4: and from twenty nineteen onwards, it demonstrates that these superpowers

327
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 4: can actually speak and be cordial and reach decisions which

328
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 4: are in the best interest in humanity.

329
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 3: The fact that he's achieved this is rather remarkable. The

330
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,960
Speaker 3: fact that it survived three American presidencies. By that I

331
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,280
Speaker 3: mean Trump one, Biden, and Trump two. The fact that

332
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 3: it survived that entire time it started I think around

333
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,240
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, That in itself shows that it's resilient and

334
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 3: perhaps contributing something of value, although we don't really know

335
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:43,080
Speaker 3: what at this stage.

336
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 2: It's a dialogue.

337
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,840
Speaker 3: He seems to suggest that the point of all this

338
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,440
Speaker 3: is for them to scrum down and discuss the future

339
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,360
Speaker 3: of modern warfare, but to do so in the best

340
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,080
Speaker 3: interests of humanity, which is quite a humorous line, it's

341
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 3: almost and that appears to be the realm in which

342
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 3: Andrew Forrest is trying to operate, whether it's on this

343
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,760
Speaker 3: matter of diplomacy between the superpowers and AI or whether

344
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,560
Speaker 3: it's you know, his campaign against global warming and decarbonizing mining.

345
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,080
Speaker 3: He's operating in the best interest for humanity. And this

346
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:20,680
Speaker 3: is I guess the whole point of why I wrote

347
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,640
Speaker 3: the piece. It's like, well, that's great Pepe who appointed

348
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,639
Speaker 3: you to be the to be the prosecutor of that.

349
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,919
Speaker 1: Well, if you can create world peace, you know, I

350
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:31,160
Speaker 1: guess we'll all be on his side.

351
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,960
Speaker 2: Correctshon, Thank you very much, Thank you.

352
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:36,960
Speaker 3: M H.

353
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,120
Speaker 1: Yiahan is The Australian's North Asia correspondent. You can read

354
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,439
Speaker 1: all Yoi's work right now at the Australian dot com

355
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: dot au