1 00:00:03,970 --> 00:00:06,840 Adam Lang: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Adam 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,039 Adam Lang: Lang. There's plenty happening in the world of media right 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,820 Adam Lang: now with a federal election a couple of months away, 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,550 Adam Lang: prepare for a surge in campaign advertising, including on digital 5 00:00:17,550 --> 00:00:20,960 Adam Lang: media, where a lot of the normal rules don't apply. 6 00:00:21,390 --> 00:00:24,470 Adam Lang: We've also got another player in the TV streaming space, 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,830 Adam Lang: a big data play by the ABC, and a brand 8 00:00:27,830 --> 00:00:30,960 Adam Lang: new budget to talk about. Tim Burrowes was the founder 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,949 Adam Lang: of Mumbrella, and now the proprietor of media and marketing 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,110 Adam Lang: industry newsletter unmade. Tim, it's great to have you back. 11 00:00:39,140 --> 00:00:40,440 Adam Lang: Welcome back to Fear and Greed. 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:42,479 Tim Burrowes: Adam, great to be with you. And when you say 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:43,870 Tim Burrowes: it out loud, it does sound like there's a lot 14 00:00:43,870 --> 00:00:44,640 Tim Burrowes: happening, doesn't it? 15 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,900 Adam Lang: It does. There's plenty to roll off the tongue. Let's 16 00:00:48,900 --> 00:00:52,339 Adam Lang: start with a budget. Tim, you've looked at how that'll 17 00:00:52,340 --> 00:00:55,430 Adam Lang: impact the media and marketing space. What did you find? 18 00:00:56,110 --> 00:00:59,720 Tim Burrowes: Well, look that there are a few indirect things, I 19 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:05,180 Tim Burrowes: suppose, probably for the media companies and the wider media 20 00:01:05,310 --> 00:01:08,959 Tim Burrowes: marketing industry, more winners than losers. One of the things 21 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,289 Tim Burrowes: that I thought was quite interesting was the 120% tax 22 00:01:12,290 --> 00:01:19,390 Tim Burrowes: offset for going digital and training, now for an industry 23 00:01:19,390 --> 00:01:21,720 Tim Burrowes: that had a pretty tough couple of years of it in 24 00:01:22,209 --> 00:01:25,089 Tim Burrowes: the events world, that's a bit of a bonus if 25 00:01:25,090 --> 00:01:28,750 Tim Burrowes: it sends people back towards face to face training. So, 26 00:01:28,750 --> 00:01:33,280 Tim Burrowes: that was certainly one aspect that was interesting. Another one 27 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:38,330 Tim Burrowes: where you probably see winners around the digital side of 28 00:01:38,330 --> 00:01:41,740 Tim Burrowes: things is web development. So the first a $ 100,000.00 is 29 00:01:41,740 --> 00:01:46,010 Tim Burrowes: spent on that going digital, including for instance, updating a 30 00:01:46,010 --> 00:01:50,410 Tim Burrowes: website or even going online for the first time. That 31 00:01:50,410 --> 00:01:54,550 Tim Burrowes: again, will be tax deductible at that 120% rate. So 32 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,950 Tim Burrowes: whether in practice that means that web development will put 33 00:01:57,950 --> 00:02:00,700 Tim Burrowes: up their prices by 20%, we'll have to see, but 34 00:02:00,700 --> 00:02:03,560 Tim Burrowes: that's definitely a winner as well. And then of course, 35 00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:05,810 Tim Burrowes: the digital behemoths are a winner of that sort of 36 00:02:05,810 --> 00:02:08,799 Tim Burrowes: thing, because they're the ones who provide those cloud based 37 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,519 Tim Burrowes: services like Salesforce or Google's G- suite, all of those 38 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,290 Tim Burrowes: things. So a number of measures, which are broadly positive 39 00:02:18,290 --> 00:02:22,440 Tim Burrowes: for the communications industry and then one may be more 40 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,460 Tim Burrowes: negative would be, it looks like Screen Australia will have 41 00:02:25,460 --> 00:02:28,950 Tim Burrowes: a lot less to spend in terms of grants over 42 00:02:28,950 --> 00:02:32,280 Tim Burrowes: the next sort of three years or so, but perhaps 43 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,160 Tim Burrowes: that's understandable when the screen industry is booming, thanks to 44 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:41,070 Tim Burrowes: investment in streaming. So maybe government funding isn't needed as 45 00:02:41,070 --> 00:02:43,190 Tim Burrowes: a intervention on that right now. 46 00:02:44,130 --> 00:02:46,730 Adam Lang: So it could be finally time for Fear and Greed 47 00:02:46,730 --> 00:02:49,519 Adam Lang: to get a new website. I'll look at that. Now 48 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,840 Adam Lang: let's turn to the election, which has to be held 49 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,870 Adam Lang: in May. Can we expect to see the advertising ramp up soon? 50 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,900 Tim Burrowes: Yeah, it's always swings in roundabouts with an election because 51 00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:02,560 Tim Burrowes: on the one hand, government advertising has to go on 52 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,620 Tim Burrowes: hold, but on the other, the parties start spending. Now 53 00:03:06,620 --> 00:03:08,520 Tim Burrowes: what tends to happen in the run up to an 54 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,010 Tim Burrowes: election, has been happening is government spending does tend to 55 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,730 Tim Burrowes: happen with all of these public service announcements, which might 56 00:03:16,730 --> 00:03:18,930 Tim Burrowes: just have a little political aspect to them as well, 57 00:03:18,930 --> 00:03:22,610 Tim Burrowes: or political motivation. But then we'll see the parties begin 58 00:03:22,610 --> 00:03:25,840 Tim Burrowes: to start selling in their communications. And of course, we 59 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,530 Tim Burrowes: are increasingly seeing them moving towards social media in how 60 00:03:29,530 --> 00:03:33,710 Tim Burrowes: they communicate their ability to target much smaller groups of people. 61 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:35,810 Tim Burrowes: And of course, that also makes it a lot harder 62 00:03:35,810 --> 00:03:37,030 Tim Burrowes: to monitor what they're up to. 63 00:03:37,510 --> 00:03:41,570 Adam Lang: Closely for contest can probably mean a bit more spending. 64 00:03:41,570 --> 00:03:42,340 Adam Lang: Would you agree? 65 00:03:42,710 --> 00:03:45,920 Tim Burrowes: Look, I would, of course it depends on what budgets 66 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,600 Tim Burrowes: all of the parties hold. And of course, one of 67 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,930 Tim Burrowes: the things that distorts that whole market is the deep 68 00:03:51,930 --> 00:03:55,670 Tim Burrowes: pockets of the likes of Clive Palmer, for instance, where 69 00:03:55,970 --> 00:03:59,460 Tim Burrowes: you can't miss those ads on often on the front 70 00:03:59,460 --> 00:04:02,530 Tim Burrowes: pages of the newspapers, but online as well and those 71 00:04:02,530 --> 00:04:06,820 Tim Burrowes: bright yellow billboards, et cetera. So that tends to drag 72 00:04:06,820 --> 00:04:09,010 Tim Burrowes: more spend into the sector. And of course, drive the 73 00:04:09,010 --> 00:04:11,850 Tim Burrowes: cost of advertising up for all of the political parties. 74 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,410 Adam Lang: Yeah. Now you've mentioned it. There is so much attention 75 00:04:15,410 --> 00:04:19,610 Adam Lang: on digital media now, but does traditional media advertising still 76 00:04:19,610 --> 00:04:21,670 Adam Lang: have a big role to play in this campaign? 77 00:04:22,220 --> 00:04:26,159 Tim Burrowes: I suspect it probably does. I think obviously you can't 78 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:31,120 Tim Burrowes: necessarily think of parties as brands, but for overall tone 79 00:04:31,190 --> 00:04:36,120 Tim Burrowes: and messages, that's where television works very well, but it's 80 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,950 Tim Burrowes: expensive obviously, where newspapers work very well. And I suppose 81 00:04:40,950 --> 00:04:45,210 Tim Burrowes: where digital works best is when you're targeting specific messages 82 00:04:45,430 --> 00:04:49,030 Tim Burrowes: to specific groups of people, which of course has been 83 00:04:49,730 --> 00:04:51,960 Tim Burrowes: in some places around the world has actually been seen 84 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:57,180 Tim Burrowes: as a potential negative for democracy when micro- targeting can 85 00:04:57,540 --> 00:05:00,100 Tim Burrowes: converge towards the overly psychological. 86 00:05:01,060 --> 00:05:05,020 Adam Lang: Right. Now, traditional and digital also can be subject to 87 00:05:05,020 --> 00:05:08,680 Adam Lang: different rules. For example, there's a blackout period for political 88 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,279 Adam Lang: ads in the three days leading up to the election, 89 00:05:11,510 --> 00:05:14,680 Adam Lang: but that typically applies only to traditional media, but not 90 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,550 Adam Lang: online. I think that could be getting a bit outdated. 91 00:05:18,550 --> 00:05:19,340 Adam Lang: What about you? 92 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,710 Tim Burrowes: Yeah. I tend to, it's certainly something which the traditional 93 00:05:23,710 --> 00:05:26,970 Tim Burrowes: media has been fairly unhappy about. They have had a 94 00:05:26,970 --> 00:05:33,540 Tim Burrowes: pretty good scorecard of getting most media reforms, legislated that 95 00:05:33,540 --> 00:05:35,830 Tim Burrowes: they want, but this is one that hasn't happened so 96 00:05:35,830 --> 00:05:38,770 Tim Burrowes: far. So of course, we'll now get to the point 97 00:05:38,820 --> 00:05:41,089 Tim Burrowes: where we'll certainly go into this election under the old 98 00:05:41,089 --> 00:05:45,529 Tim Burrowes: rules, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's the last 99 00:05:45,529 --> 00:05:48,099 Tim Burrowes: one where there isn't a level playing field. Now, whether 100 00:05:48,100 --> 00:05:52,490 Tim Burrowes: that is unlocking the blackout period for everybody or whether 101 00:05:52,490 --> 00:05:56,420 Tim Burrowes: it means blacking out all media will have to see. 102 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,650 Tim Burrowes: But yeah, it feels just a strange contradiction at the moment. 103 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:04,240 Adam Lang: Yeah. So let's turn to the Australian Communications and Media 104 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,760 Adam Lang: Authority. Last week, the federal government announced it would, if 105 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,390 Adam Lang: it was reelected increased the powers of the ACMA to crack 106 00:06:11,390 --> 00:06:15,039 Adam Lang: down on tech companies and the publication of harmful and 107 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,770 Adam Lang: misleading content. That probably won't be received well by Facebook 108 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:20,659 Adam Lang: and the others. 109 00:06:21,850 --> 00:06:25,050 Tim Burrowes: Yeah. Look, and it's part of an undergoing theme, I 110 00:06:25,050 --> 00:06:29,230 Tim Burrowes: suppose. So, we're halfway through the five years or the 111 00:06:29,230 --> 00:06:32,969 Tim Burrowes: planned five years of the digital platforms inquiry, which is 112 00:06:32,970 --> 00:06:38,080 Tim Burrowes: being run by the Australian Competition Consumer Commission. This is 113 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,400 Tim Burrowes: separate powers that will be given to, as you say, 114 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,370 Tim Burrowes: the Australian Communications and Media Authority. Now, of course it 115 00:06:45,370 --> 00:06:48,910 Tim Burrowes: won't get legislated this side of the election now. So 116 00:06:49,420 --> 00:06:52,160 Tim Burrowes: it then becomes a question if there's a change of 117 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,550 Tim Burrowes: parties, whether if, for instance, labor ended up holding government, 118 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:02,159 Tim Burrowes: whether they then choose to legislate something similar themselves. I 119 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,250 Tim Burrowes: think Facebook and Google already feel in Australia that they're 120 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,680 Tim Burrowes: very much under the microscope, and they are. And what 121 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,210 Tim Burrowes: happens here is it becomes a global lesson as well. 122 00:07:13,220 --> 00:07:16,620 Tim Burrowes: So I must admit, I'm a bit cynical about whether 123 00:07:16,620 --> 00:07:19,540 Tim Burrowes: this one will ever be legislated because it was obviously 124 00:07:19,540 --> 00:07:23,130 Tim Burrowes: announced in the clear knowledge that it wasn't going to 125 00:07:23,750 --> 00:07:29,110 Tim Burrowes: hit parliament during this sitting year. And there is a 126 00:07:29,110 --> 00:07:31,119 Tim Burrowes: bit of a habit over the years, certainly for the 127 00:07:31,130 --> 00:07:36,620 Tim Burrowes: last decade of both labor and coalition communications ministers, leaving 128 00:07:36,620 --> 00:07:39,270 Tim Burrowes: it very late in their term of off first, before 129 00:07:39,270 --> 00:07:42,540 Tim Burrowes: they make their moves and then running out of time. 130 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,780 Adam Lang: So on that theme last year, Facebook and Google struck 131 00:07:47,780 --> 00:07:50,340 Adam Lang: content deals with a lot of the main news publishers 132 00:07:50,340 --> 00:07:54,730 Adam Lang: in Australia. And last week, more than 30 independent media 133 00:07:54,790 --> 00:07:58,850 Adam Lang: outlets stopped publishing news for 24 hours, as part of the # 134 00:07:58,850 --> 00:08:03,480 Adam Lang: WaitingOnZuck campaign. They're trying to send a message that small 135 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,510 Adam Lang: and medium publishers are still waiting for payment for content 136 00:08:06,510 --> 00:08:10,190 Adam Lang: appearing on Facebook. Do you think that message got through? 137 00:08:11,370 --> 00:08:15,050 Tim Burrowes: Look, I think the message was heard, but whether it'll 138 00:08:15,050 --> 00:08:19,590 Tim Burrowes: be acted upon is another matter. The issue in the 139 00:08:19,590 --> 00:08:23,870 Tim Burrowes: frustration for the smaller end of town was this new 140 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,700 Tim Burrowes: position was legislated, which was Google and Facebook could be 141 00:08:27,950 --> 00:08:31,620 Tim Burrowes: designated under The News Media Bargaining Code, and then would 142 00:08:31,620 --> 00:08:35,610 Tim Burrowes: be forced to negotiate with anybody who was recognized by 143 00:08:35,610 --> 00:08:43,110 Tim Burrowes: the SCMA as a news provider. And unfortunately, because then 144 00:08:45,330 --> 00:08:48,270 Tim Burrowes: the backroom deals were done with Google and Facebook to 145 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,530 Tim Burrowes: find ways of giving money to the big end of 146 00:08:50,530 --> 00:08:54,179 Tim Burrowes: town, they haven't been designated. So the question now is 147 00:08:54,179 --> 00:08:57,370 Tim Burrowes: whether the small guys will be left high and dry, 148 00:08:57,370 --> 00:09:00,490 Tim Burrowes: when it looks like Facebook doesn't want to, in particular, 149 00:09:00,500 --> 00:09:02,890 Tim Burrowes: doesn't want to talk to them. So, there are some 150 00:09:02,890 --> 00:09:06,829 Tim Burrowes: odd examples, very vocal this week has been the likes 151 00:09:06,830 --> 00:09:11,570 Tim Burrowes: of Broadsheet, for instance, who finds itself competing with bigger 152 00:09:11,570 --> 00:09:14,040 Tim Burrowes: players who are now getting more funding as a result, 153 00:09:14,590 --> 00:09:19,450 Tim Burrowes: also organizations like SPS or The Conversation, Voice of Academics, 154 00:09:19,460 --> 00:09:21,790 Tim Burrowes: or the sort of people that Facebook hasn't been willing 155 00:09:21,790 --> 00:09:25,510 Tim Burrowes: to talk to. So it does feel like there, there 156 00:09:25,610 --> 00:09:28,870 Tim Burrowes: are at the moment, some unintended consequences. 157 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,410 Adam Lang: Stay with me, Tim, we'll be back in a minute. 158 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,670 Adam Lang: My guest this morning is Tim Burrowes from media and 159 00:09:39,670 --> 00:09:43,429 Adam Lang: marketing industry newsletter Unmade. So let's turn to the ABC, 160 00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:47,360 Adam Lang: and it's currently struggling with how much freedom its journalists 161 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,870 Adam Lang: should have on social media. It was revealed recently that 162 00:09:50,870 --> 00:09:54,179 Adam Lang: staff have been disciplined four times in the past six 163 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,710 Adam Lang: months for their online conduct. Now that's as part of 164 00:09:57,710 --> 00:10:01,120 Adam Lang: a policy to crack down on personal views being posted 165 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,280 Adam Lang: on platforms like Twitter. Do you think this is one 166 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,870 Adam Lang: of those stories that Twitter actually worries about? And no 167 00:10:07,870 --> 00:10:08,610 Adam Lang: one else does. 168 00:10:09,470 --> 00:10:13,420 Tim Burrowes: Look, I'm not sure how worried Twitter would actually be 169 00:10:13,420 --> 00:10:16,429 Tim Burrowes: about this one. I think it's probably more of a 170 00:10:16,429 --> 00:10:20,760 Tim Burrowes: headache for the management of the ABC and in fairness, 171 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,650 Tim Burrowes: the management of any team of journalists where you want 172 00:10:25,470 --> 00:10:27,949 Tim Burrowes: modern media environment for your journalists to actually have a 173 00:10:27,950 --> 00:10:32,220 Tim Burrowes: two way conversation to show their ability to analyze and 174 00:10:32,220 --> 00:10:35,710 Tim Burrowes: understand the issues and explain them. But at the same 175 00:10:35,710 --> 00:10:38,000 Tim Burrowes: time, you don't want them to show bias. And this, 176 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,400 Tim Burrowes: I think is the issue and the challenge, which is particularly 177 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,470 Tim Burrowes: important for the ABC, because it has public funding is 178 00:10:45,470 --> 00:10:51,620 Tim Burrowes: where does expert analysis stop, and opinion begin. And every 179 00:10:51,620 --> 00:10:53,170 Tim Burrowes: now and then you'll just see an example where a 180 00:10:53,170 --> 00:10:56,760 Tim Burrowes: journalist or even a presenter from the ABC because it's 181 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,290 Tim Burrowes: not always journalists, just can't resist the temptation. And then 182 00:11:01,290 --> 00:11:06,770 Tim Burrowes: of course it's another stick to beat the poor bosses of 183 00:11:06,830 --> 00:11:09,700 Tim Burrowes: the ABC the next time they turn up at Senate estimates. 184 00:11:10,580 --> 00:11:14,280 Adam Lang: So speaking of the ABC, anyone attempting to use Iview 185 00:11:14,450 --> 00:11:17,760 Adam Lang: to watch programs is being warned that they'll need to set 186 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,579 Adam Lang: up an account out. What do you think the ABC's going to do 187 00:11:20,580 --> 00:11:21,320 Adam Lang: without data? 188 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,449 Tim Burrowes: I suspect it will use it for entirely benevolent purposes. 189 00:11:27,260 --> 00:11:31,980 Tim Burrowes: I'm not among those who feel challenged by the decision 190 00:11:31,980 --> 00:11:35,250 Tim Burrowes: to do that. Hey, look, I think for the typical 191 00:11:35,250 --> 00:11:39,730 Tim Burrowes: user, the main benefit they'll see is being able, presume 192 00:11:39,730 --> 00:11:43,360 Tim Burrowes: watching a show where they left off, which is, which 193 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,270 Tim Burrowes: is something that we've come to expect through streaming generally. 194 00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:51,260 Tim Burrowes: It does feel like a lot of the criticism of 195 00:11:51,260 --> 00:11:54,809 Tim Burrowes: this move and the questions around the protection of data, 196 00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:59,080 Tim Burrowes: do seem to be coming from the ABC's greatest rivals 197 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,730 Tim Burrowes: and critics, particularly over at News Corp. So it does 198 00:12:02,730 --> 00:12:05,929 Tim Burrowes: feel that it's quite a narrow group of people who 199 00:12:05,929 --> 00:12:11,540 Tim Burrowes: are criticizing. So, it strikes me that probably they should 200 00:12:11,540 --> 00:12:12,590 Tim Burrowes: have done it long ago. 201 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,570 Adam Lang: Right. Now, the streaming space seems to be getting a 202 00:12:16,570 --> 00:12:20,100 Adam Lang: bit more crowded. You've got Netflix, Stan, Binge, Disney Plus, 203 00:12:20,270 --> 00:12:24,240 Adam Lang: Amazon Prime, Apple TV, and now CBS has brought out 204 00:12:24,309 --> 00:12:28,270 Adam Lang: Paramount Plus, at what point do you think we reach 205 00:12:28,330 --> 00:12:30,330 Adam Lang: saturation or peak streaming? 206 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,240 Tim Burrowes: I think we might be almost there, certainly when you 207 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,670 Tim Burrowes: look at the investment markets appetite for supporting it and 208 00:12:38,670 --> 00:12:43,410 Tim Burrowes: investing in it, there are signs. So we saw in 209 00:12:43,410 --> 00:12:46,559 Tim Burrowes: the US, Netflix's share price, took a bit of a 210 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,020 Tim Burrowes: hit when it talked about how hard it was going to 211 00:12:50,020 --> 00:12:53,209 Tim Burrowes: have to carry on investing in content while also seeing 212 00:12:53,210 --> 00:12:57,640 Tim Burrowes: subscriber numbers slowing. You saw a similar message when, I 213 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,110 Tim Burrowes: think it was just in the last days of being 214 00:12:59,110 --> 00:13:06,940 Tim Burrowes: ViacomCBS, WHO is now paramount, announced similar big investment plans in 215 00:13:06,940 --> 00:13:08,670 Tim Burrowes: the local market. We even saw a bit of a 216 00:13:08,670 --> 00:13:12,710 Tim Burrowes: downwards blip for Nine when its CEO, Mike Sneesby told 217 00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:15,840 Tim Burrowes: the market that he felt that Stan was going to 218 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,720 Tim Burrowes: need to be investing more in content. Although it's since 219 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,240 Tim Burrowes: come back up again. But certainly it feels like the 220 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,040 Tim Burrowes: appetite is fading a bit. And that recognizes the fact 221 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,000 Tim Burrowes: that there is only so much content that can be 222 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:32,760 Tim Burrowes: consumed. So there will presumably be some consolidation and perhaps 223 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,870 Tim Burrowes: quite soon, what will start that ball rolling, I don't 224 00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:40,650 Tim Burrowes: quite know yet, but I guess our big local indicator 225 00:13:40,650 --> 00:13:44,420 Tim Burrowes: will be Foxtel Group, has been sending some pretty big 226 00:13:44,420 --> 00:13:47,070 Tim Burrowes: signs to the market that it has a taste for 227 00:13:47,070 --> 00:13:51,500 Tim Burrowes: an IPO. And the sentiment in the market will be 228 00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:55,240 Tim Burrowes: a really interesting signal if they actually get that away 229 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,240 Tim Burrowes: on the ASX. 230 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,460 Adam Lang: So Tim, let's let's turn to what you are doing. Having founded 231 00:14:00,460 --> 00:14:05,059 Adam Lang: in sold Mumbrella. Your new project, Unmade, is still in 232 00:14:05,059 --> 00:14:08,390 Adam Lang: the startup phase, and you're doing it a little differently. 233 00:14:08,390 --> 00:14:11,790 Adam Lang: You're embracing a model of transparency and you're actually telling 234 00:14:12,130 --> 00:14:14,890 Adam Lang: how many paid subscribers you've got and the process you're 235 00:14:14,890 --> 00:14:17,020 Adam Lang: going through. Why have you done it like that? 236 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,280 Tim Burrowes: I suppose because I write about the media and marketing 237 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,570 Tim Burrowes: industry, it's an interesting media story to tell, a lot 238 00:14:24,570 --> 00:14:28,250 Tim Burrowes: of Unmade readers might work in the publishing or wider 239 00:14:28,250 --> 00:14:32,560 Tim Burrowes: media industry. So, why wouldn't you? As you alluded to 240 00:14:32,650 --> 00:14:35,560 Tim Burrowes: sort of much earlier on, back in the day, I 241 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,960 Tim Burrowes: was a part of the team that launched Mumbrella and 242 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,300 Tim Burrowes: it was always our policy there to tell the stories 243 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:44,710 Tim Burrowes: of our failures as well of our successes. And we 244 00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:48,880 Tim Burrowes: absolutely did have failures and people found that very interesting 245 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,530 Tim Burrowes: to read, because I think you can learn a lot 246 00:14:51,530 --> 00:14:54,670 Tim Burrowes: more about that. So, for us the big, I guess, 247 00:14:54,670 --> 00:15:00,970 Tim Burrowes: publishing experiment, is having a paid subscription component for an 248 00:15:00,970 --> 00:15:03,860 Tim Burrowes: online newsletter, is still a relatively new model. And we're 249 00:15:03,860 --> 00:15:08,280 Tim Burrowes: on the SubStep platform, which is again, very up and 250 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,810 Tim Burrowes: coming, but beginning to find place in the market. So we are 251 00:15:12,810 --> 00:15:17,010 Tim Burrowes: seeing these niches begin to evolve around the world where 252 00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:20,090 Tim Burrowes: small groups of journalists effectively find it as a way 253 00:15:20,090 --> 00:15:25,410 Tim Burrowes: of finding an independent, direct voice to their audience that. 254 00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:29,530 Tim Burrowes: Sometimes it's advertising supported, and sometimes it's not. Now at the 255 00:15:29,530 --> 00:15:34,870 Tim Burrowes: moment, my primary revenue stream is paid subscriptions, but in 256 00:15:34,870 --> 00:15:37,520 Tim Burrowes: time I don't see advertising as a dirty word at 257 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,030 Tim Burrowes: all. So, in time I'll probably pull some of the 258 00:15:41,030 --> 00:15:45,580 Tim Burrowes: more of traditional levers of B2B publishing, but I find 259 00:15:45,580 --> 00:15:47,370 Tim Burrowes: we are learning so much at the moment just by 260 00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:51,210 Tim Burrowes: having that direct relationship with the audience and figuring out 261 00:15:51,210 --> 00:15:56,250 Tim Burrowes: new ways. So, hopefully we find you new people signing 262 00:15:56,250 --> 00:15:58,610 Tim Burrowes: up at unmade. media all the time. 263 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:02,210 Adam Lang: Tim, I'm a subscriber and I'm really enjoying it, both 264 00:16:02,210 --> 00:16:04,910 Adam Lang: the content and you're telling of the story of what 265 00:16:04,910 --> 00:16:06,950 Adam Lang: you're going through as a startup. I think it's terrific. 266 00:16:06,950 --> 00:16:09,570 Adam Lang: So thank you very much for talking to Fear and Greed. 267 00:16:10,110 --> 00:16:11,240 Tim Burrowes: Adam, it's always a pleasure. 268 00:16:11,710 --> 00:16:14,880 Adam Lang: That was Tim Burrowes, the proprietor of media and marketing 269 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,310 Adam Lang: industry newsletter Unmade. And this is the Fear and Greed 270 00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:21,480 Adam Lang: daily interview. Join us every morning for the full episode 271 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,920 Adam Lang: of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Adam Lang. 272 00:16:26,110 --> 00:16:26,930 Adam Lang: Enjoy your day.