1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,160
Speaker 1: This is the fits In and Whip with Kate Richie podcast.

2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,080
Speaker 2: This is fascinating. Gary Jubilan is one of the country's

3
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:10,639
Speaker 2: most respected homicide detectives. Gary's worked across the Armed hold

4
00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:15,640
Speaker 2: Up Squad, Organized Crime Squad, Gangs Squad, Unsolved Homicide, Homicide Squad.

5
00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,160
Speaker 2: He retired in twenty nineteen. But Gary's got some great

6
00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,160
Speaker 2: podcasts out there, and he's got a new one called

7
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,200
Speaker 2: Breaking Badness. It's available now on the Daily Telegraph website

8
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,479
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your good podcast from. And he

9
00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,520
Speaker 2: joins us. Now, thanks for coming in, Garret.

10
00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,960
Speaker 3: Gary, Well, thank you very much.

11
00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,520
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting, There's so much and so many

12
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,600
Speaker 1: questions and topics we want to talk to you about.

13
00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,880
Speaker 1: When you talk about Breaking Badness. The first question, because

14
00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:41,760
Speaker 1: of the people you've dealt with and come across in

15
00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,600
Speaker 1: your career, can you and often you see these articles written,

16
00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,360
Speaker 1: can you see a consistent personality trait in some of

17
00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:50,959
Speaker 1: the bad people you've come across?

18
00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,240
Speaker 3: There are quite often and like you, have different degrees

19
00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,400
Speaker 3: of badness. There's some people that there's no hope for,

20
00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,280
Speaker 3: born bad and will be bad for the rest of

21
00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,160
Speaker 3: their life. But what I've found and I've been able

22
00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,040
Speaker 3: to since I've left the police, been able to look

23
00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,279
Speaker 3: at it from a different perspective. And what I've found

24
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,280
Speaker 3: is that the upbringing in the environment that people grew

25
00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,399
Speaker 3: up like a lot of people in prison, if you

26
00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,120
Speaker 3: grew up in that environment, well we'd probably all end

27
00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,399
Speaker 3: up there. So I think that plays a part. But

28
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,800
Speaker 3: you know, I worked very closely with a forensic psychologist,

29
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,760
Speaker 3: doctor Sarah Ull when I was in the police, and

30
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,720
Speaker 3: she was always at pains to point out to me

31
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,720
Speaker 3: just because someone does a bad thing doesn't necessarily make

32
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,120
Speaker 3: them a bad person. And if you adopt that sort

33
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,280
Speaker 3: of approach, I think you get a more realistic take

34
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,040
Speaker 3: on the type of people that we see in the headlines.

35
00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,880
Speaker 3: They've done bad things, but what's the circumstances leading up

36
00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:40,640
Speaker 3: to it? Right?

37
00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:41,560
Speaker 1: Which chapter of.

38
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,039
Speaker 4: Their life are they in? You know, what are the

39
00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,039
Speaker 4: things that are affecting them at that moment.

40
00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:47,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, I know this.

41
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,320
Speaker 4: Is going to sound like a very crazy question, but

42
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,280
Speaker 4: in relation to the work you do and the crime

43
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,840
Speaker 4: scenes you've been to and the cases you've been involved with,

44
00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,360
Speaker 4: is there kind of one particular area or one particular

45
00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,880
Speaker 4: genre of crime that you I'm trying to find a

46
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,840
Speaker 4: better word than enjoy. But is there are there cases

47
00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,120
Speaker 4: where you think this is where I'm at my best,

48
00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,360
Speaker 4: or this is you know, I enjoy this the most.

49
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,600
Speaker 3: And when you're talking about homicide, take the word exactly.

50
00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,040
Speaker 4: And that's why I'm struggling to ask the question, No

51
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,720
Speaker 4: I what I And this sounds a bit like I've

52
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:28,840
Speaker 4: become too numb to it where you say there's some

53
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,400
Speaker 4: straightforward murders where it's like tracking an elephant through the snow.

54
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,520
Speaker 3: You gave the crime soon and you go, Okay, well

55
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,359
Speaker 3: we know what's happened here, stupid and you go lock

56
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,399
Speaker 3: the person up. What I found is that the more

57
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,239
Speaker 3: and I learned every day that I came to work,

58
00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 3: the more experience I got. The challenge was the difficult ones.

59
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,960
Speaker 3: So that's what inspired me, the ones that had been

60
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,919
Speaker 3: written off, the ones that you weren't meant to solve,

61
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,320
Speaker 3: that the skills that not just yourself but the team,

62
00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,720
Speaker 3: because it's always a team, team effort solving the murder.

63
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,440
Speaker 3: That you can bring those skills to the table and

64
00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,360
Speaker 3: you actually make a difference. Say they're the ones that

65
00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,840
Speaker 3: inspired me, The gangland type killings like I did a

66
00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,120
Speaker 3: lot of the bikey type stuff. I still find motivation

67
00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,120
Speaker 3: on those ones. But when there's someone that's not because

68
00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,320
Speaker 3: of their lifestyle, nothing other than they are in the

69
00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,240
Speaker 3: wrong place at the wrong time of victims, you get

70
00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,320
Speaker 3: there's a lot to be inspired for and driven to

71
00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,960
Speaker 3: make sure you solve those type of investigations.

72
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,800
Speaker 2: One of your most high profile cases is the William

73
00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,680
Speaker 2: Tyrell case, and you worked on that for quite a while. Gary,

74
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,040
Speaker 2: I want to ask you. I know you can't talk

75
00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,200
Speaker 2: about it too much, but with your with your position,

76
00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,880
Speaker 2: there to be a lot of gut feel that you get. Gary,

77
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,240
Speaker 2: You've got to go with your gut, and you you

78
00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,520
Speaker 2: would have seen you would have been so immuned over

79
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,480
Speaker 2: the years and watching body language and watching things what

80
00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,760
Speaker 2: I want to I've always wanted to ask you this question,

81
00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,400
Speaker 2: deep down in your gut? Do you know what happened

82
00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:58,120
Speaker 2: to William Terrell?

83
00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 3: I've got I led the investortigation for four years, so

84
00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,800
Speaker 3: I took it over after about four or five months

85
00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,520
Speaker 3: after WiM's disappearance. So to say I've got no idea

86
00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,240
Speaker 3: would be a bit concerning. I certainly I put it

87
00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,360
Speaker 3: this way. There's things when I'm looking at persons of interests,

88
00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,080
Speaker 3: let's call them persons of interests. Red flags that present themselves,

89
00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,279
Speaker 3: and the way you go through a homicide investigation is

90
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,600
Speaker 3: just to eliminate, prioritize, and eliminate the suspects. One of

91
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,400
Speaker 3: the time, I can't say definitively I know who's done

92
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,960
Speaker 3: it because it's a matter that hasn't been before the court.

93
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,320
Speaker 3: But I certainly had ideas on it when I was

94
00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,360
Speaker 3: taken off. And you know, we're beating around the bush.

95
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,440
Speaker 3: I was taken off the investigation in controversial and dramatic circumstances.

96
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,839
Speaker 3: It was overnight removed from the investigation. What concerned me

97
00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,440
Speaker 3: is that I thought I had the investigation pointed in

98
00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,400
Speaker 3: a healthy direction that we might have been able to

99
00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,159
Speaker 3: resolve it. I can't say definitively we would be able

100
00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,800
Speaker 3: to resolve it. Where the to all investigation's gone. Since

101
00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,160
Speaker 3: I've been taken off the investigation, I've spoken publicly about it.

102
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,479
Speaker 3: I don't want to be critical because I haven't been

103
00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 3: on the investigation since that time. I haven't had any involvement,

104
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,479
Speaker 3: but I've seen some things that have really concerned me,

105
00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,719
Speaker 3: and the way it's been played out in public over

106
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,720
Speaker 3: the past eighteen months and one suspect has been nominated

107
00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,520
Speaker 3: and the media have been briefed on certain developments on it.

108
00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,480
Speaker 3: I can't That does not sit comfortable with me. I

109
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,920
Speaker 3: think we need to have this resolve. There's a lot

110
00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,360
Speaker 3: of speculation, there's a lot of rumor that comes from

111
00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,760
Speaker 3: information being released, and we need to need it resolved.

112
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,600
Speaker 3: The thing that gets lost in the controversy about the

113
00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,960
Speaker 3: William Tyrel matter, and I say that I'm involved in

114
00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,799
Speaker 3: the controversy, so it's not me standing from the outside,

115
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,040
Speaker 3: is that what's forgotten is this young child has disappeared

116
00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,760
Speaker 3: and we still haven't got answers for it. And the police,

117
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,279
Speaker 3: the New South Wales Police, should be judged by their actions.

118
00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,400
Speaker 3: And you know, if the way it's playing out, perhaps

119
00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,479
Speaker 3: there needs to be an inquiry about what's happened with

120
00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,599
Speaker 3: the investigation. But I'm still hopeful that answers will come out.

121
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,920
Speaker 3: It's been before the coroner for years and years. Hopefully

122
00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,680
Speaker 3: the coroner comes back soon and gives it some direction.

123
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 3: And this investigation over every other investigation I've worked on,

124
00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,799
Speaker 3: you sneeze and if it's to do with William Tyrell,

125
00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 3: it's on the front page of the paper the lead's story. Why,

126
00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,840
Speaker 3: I think because people can relate to a three year

127
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 3: old child playing at his grandparents place and just disappearing.

128
00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,120
Speaker 3: That's a safe place. These type of things don't happen,

129
00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,200
Speaker 3: so I think. And then that iconic picture of William

130
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,120
Speaker 3: in his Spider Man suit just shortly before he disappears,

131
00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:34,880
Speaker 3: So I think it resonates with all of us, So

132
00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,559
Speaker 3: I understand the media's appetite to it.

133
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 2: The new podcast Breaking Badness, you're talking about Breaking Badness

134
00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:48,080
Speaker 2: and the prison system here in Australia. What is it working, Gary.

135
00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,880
Speaker 2: Do these guys go in and come out more hardened

136
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,039
Speaker 2: criminals or is it doing the right thing at the moment.

137
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,120
Speaker 3: Well, if you look at the recidivism rate in this statement,

138
00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,120
Speaker 3: like recidivism as in going the jail, come out and

139
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,120
Speaker 3: end up back in jail. But since I've left the

140
00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 3: police and doing the podcast and speaking to people from

141
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,360
Speaker 3: a different perspective, I've started to learn that if you

142
00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 3: treat people a certain way in prison, the likelihood is

143
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,480
Speaker 3: when they come out they're going to reoffend. And I

144
00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,720
Speaker 3: spoke to some senior corrective services officers and they pointed

145
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,040
Speaker 3: me to the direction of what they're doing at Macquarie

146
00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,800
Speaker 3: Correctional Center, which is a jail with a little bit

147
00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 3: more innovative. They give the prisoners freedoms that they don't

148
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,080
Speaker 3: get in the more traditional prisons, and they create a

149
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,000
Speaker 3: social environment where the prisoners have got to get on.

150
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,200
Speaker 3: They live in dorms. Now this is a maximum security prison.

151
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,000
Speaker 3: When they first told me there's twenty five prisoners, they're

152
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,280
Speaker 3: all living in a dorm. I thought the recipe for disaster.

153
00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 3: But it works. And instead of resolving things in the

154
00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,520
Speaker 3: traditional prison way, which would end up in tears and

155
00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,960
Speaker 3: someone severely injured, if not dead, they mediate, They resolve

156
00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,680
Speaker 3: things and they discuss work, speak.

157
00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,840
Speaker 2: Get rewards, gary they get rewards if they do certain things.

158
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,400
Speaker 3: They flipped it a little bit. They give them the

159
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,000
Speaker 3: rewards when they come into the prison, and then they

160
00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,520
Speaker 3: take the rewards off if they misbehave. And there's a

161
00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 3: policy of no violence, so if you're involved in conflict,

162
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,240
Speaker 3: you're out. So you've got these hardened prisoners sitting down

163
00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,560
Speaker 3: and debating in the actual dorms. If they don't like someone,

164
00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,600
Speaker 3: they have a meeting and they virtually get vaded off.

165
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,040
Speaker 3: It's like being vaded off Love Island's exactly the same. Look.

166
00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,560
Speaker 4: I see the merit in what you're talking about. But

167
00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,760
Speaker 4: because I absolutely you know, I agree when I'm sitting

168
00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,600
Speaker 4: here speaking with you. But then, of course there is

169
00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,080
Speaker 4: a whole part of the population sometimes people who have

170
00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,920
Speaker 4: been affected by acts of crime, and they think, well,

171
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 4: this person who did this to my family or my

172
00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 4: son or my daughter. They don't deserve these things. But

173
00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,960
Speaker 4: I guess that's losing sight of what rehabilitation is meant

174
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:57,600
Speaker 4: to be about.

175
00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,440
Speaker 3: Well, Kate, your concern was my concern. When I was

176
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 3: invited into the prison, I thought, Okay, what's this is

177
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,760
Speaker 3: the wallboon pulled over my eyes? Have I gone soft?

178
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,520
Speaker 3: What's happened? And I wanted to get perspective from a victim,

179
00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,960
Speaker 3: so I spoke to Ken marslu. Ken Marslow's son was

180
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 3: killed in an armed robbery. He was shot by a

181
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,040
Speaker 3: shotgun working at pizza Hut, nineteen years old. Now, if

182
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,400
Speaker 3: anyone's got a right to be angry at people that

183
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,920
Speaker 3: commit crime, it's Ken. That was a long time ago,

184
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,079
Speaker 3: twenty years ago. Ken's changed his views and we're quite

185
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,920
Speaker 3: close Ken and I and I got his opinion on that.

186
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 3: What because you want to get what would the public think?

187
00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,400
Speaker 3: Why are we shut soft on these His point was,

188
00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,120
Speaker 3: you're not going soft on crime. You've been smart on crime.

189
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,800
Speaker 3: And if you reduce recidivism, as in reduced people committing

190
00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,520
Speaker 3: crime when they come out, that reduces victims. So that's

191
00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,240
Speaker 3: a smart play and that's what they're trying to do

192
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,360
Speaker 3: at Macquarry. And I got to say, I think what

193
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 3: they're doing in there makes a lot of sense. I'd

194
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,880
Speaker 3: prefer to be living next door to a prisoner that

195
00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,160
Speaker 3: came out of Macquarie correctional scene than live in someone

196
00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:02,400
Speaker 3: more traditional prison.

197
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 2: Gary, we could talk to you all day. It's fascinating

198
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,400
Speaker 2: and if you want to go check out Gary's new podcast,

199
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,200
Speaker 2: Breaking Badness. It's available now on the Daily Telegraph, to

200
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,439
Speaker 2: our website or wherever you get your good podcast from.

201
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:14,760
Speaker 3: Mate.

202
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,360
Speaker 2: We appreciate you being so open with us, Gary, and

203
00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,640
Speaker 2: we'd love to get you back in again.

204
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,240
Speaker 3: So and Buddy, well thanks for having me.

205
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 2: Guys appreciate It's in Whipper with Kate Ritchie is a

206
00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,920
Speaker 2: Nova podcast walk great shows like this.

207
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,360
Speaker 1: Download the Nova Player by the app Store or Google

208
00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 1: Playing the