1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, November twelve, twenty twenty five. It's d day 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: for the Liberal Party's net zero policy. They'll convene in 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: Canberra to vote on whether to scrub the emission's reductions 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: goal from their policy platform for good. Moderates who want 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: to salvage the policy have threatened to quit the front bench, 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: while Conservatives are eyeing a possible leadership tilt if they 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: get their way. Small Australian businesses are ground zero for 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: the booming illegal tobacco industry. They're being used by criminal 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: gangs to smuggle tons of smokes into the country, and 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: customs and freight companies could be turning a blind eye. 12 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: That exclusive is live right now at the Australian dot 13 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: com dot au. Tasmania has followed the Northern territories lead 14 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: by banning transgender in mates from women's prisons. The state's 15 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: Deputy Premier and Corrections Minister Guy Barnett says the safety 16 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: of female prisoners is his absolute priority. Today, legislators begin 17 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: joining judges in trying to sort through big questions of 18 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: gender and justice. A note before we begin this episode 19 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: mentions sexual assault and child's exploitation. You can call one 20 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: eight hundred respect anytime if you need support. The question 21 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: of how to deal with trans and gender diverse people 22 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: has raised its head again. Earlier this week, The Australian 23 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: published a story about the judge who led Australia's Family 24 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: Court when it allowed liberalized access of puberty blockers to 25 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: gender just dressed children. That judge, former Family Court Chief 26 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: Justice Diana Bryant, now says it may be better for 27 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: parliaments to step in and regulate how young people who 28 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: are questioning their gender are treated in the health system. 29 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: Joining me is The Australian's New South Wales editor Stephen Rice, 30 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: who's been looking at this issue from the point of 31 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: view of the legislators who are trying to deal with 32 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: questions of how the law applies to trans people. Rosie, 33 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: you're looking at what happens when trans people find themselves 34 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system. There's a case in Tasmania 35 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: that's triggered the story that you've written today. Tell me 36 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: what happened first of all in that case. 37 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: This is a pretty horrifying case in Tasmania where our 38 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: trans identifying prisoner. So biologically male prisoner who identifies as 39 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: a woman raped his own three year old daughter in 40 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 2: front of a camera and was sent to jail for 41 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: six years with a four year minimum. He only served 42 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: the four years before being let out on parole. Breached 43 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: as parole was sent back into prison, and throughout this 44 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: time this prisoner has been demanding to be treated as 45 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: a woman and to be placed in a woman's prison. 46 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,399 Speaker 2: Now the Tasmanian government has just made a ruling that 47 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: the Corrections Minister of the Deputy Premier in Tasmania, Guy Barnett, 48 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: told me that henceforth no trans women, in other words, 49 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: no biological men would be allowed into women's prisons in Tasmania. 50 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: This follows a case in Victoria where the Victorian Premier, 51 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: just Into Allan, was being asked questions that clearly made 52 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: her very uncomfortable about a father who sexually abused his 53 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: five year old daughter and was being held in a 54 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: Victorian prison because he now identified as a woman. You 55 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: revealed that story in the Australian Risie. Where did that 56 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: end up after we spoke about it on the front? 57 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: Is that person still in a women's prison? 58 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: Yes, as far as we know that person is still 59 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: in a women's prison. I mean the problem here is 60 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 2: just that there is actually a policy vacuum because politicians 61 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: by and large do not want to deal with this. 62 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: It's far easier for them. I mean, this is a 63 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: political minefield. It's far easier for politicians to just say, look, 64 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 2: these are dealt with on a case by case basis, 65 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: and we leave it to our prison administrators because we 66 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: know they'll do the right thing and place these prisoners 67 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 2: where they should be. That's all well and good until 68 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: you get what we have now, which is a series 69 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: of cases which brings that into question. You know, you 70 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: have that terrible Victorian case that you've just mentioned, with 71 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: the person that the courts have called Hillary Maloney who 72 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: raped his five year old child and nevertheless is now 73 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: in a women's prison with women who don't want that 74 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: person to be there. These are difficult issues, but Jacentra Allen, 75 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 2: the Premier of Victoria, has effectively ignored the whole affair. 76 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 2: She won't buy into it. She's put everything back onto 77 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: her corrections minister when you approach him, pushes it all 78 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 2: back on her. It's, as I say, there is a 79 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: policy vacuum here, and the same thing has now recently 80 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: happened in South Australia, where in a series of stories 81 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: in The Australian we revealed how several women prisoners had 82 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 2: been attacked by a transgender prisoner, CHRISTA Richards, a very 83 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: notorious transgender prisoner who was formerly a would be hit 84 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: man and drug trafficker, a very violent man. And I've 85 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 2: spoken to three different women who have been assaulted by 86 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 2: Richards in jail. One of them secret well, very violently 87 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 2: digitally penetrated by Richards after being forced to share a 88 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: cell with him after complaining about it. She was left 89 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: in that cell with this person for four days. And 90 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: these are issues that have to be dealt with. But 91 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: when that was made public that particular case, Pinter Malanauskus, 92 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: the Premier of South Australia, said it was a niche issue. 93 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: He said he hadn't really bought his mind to bear 94 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: on it. Well, that's nonsense. He was a corrections minister 95 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: for two years. It is just nonsense. But as I say, 96 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 2: the leaders of these states just will not address these issues. 97 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 2: It is too difficult for them. But it shouldn't be. 98 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: These are things that have to be addressed because trans women, 99 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: biological men, some of them very violent, are being placed 100 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: in cells with very vulnerable young women. 101 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: The vulnerability of it is a really interesting part of 102 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: this story, isn't it, Ricey. I think you and I've 103 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: both been around journalism enough to know that there is 104 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: an attitude out there among many members of the public 105 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: that if someone has committed a crime and is sentenced 106 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: to a custodial sentence, they kind of don't want to know. 107 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: They want them to disappear from public view and to 108 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: be dealt with in the correction system. There's low public 109 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: sympathy for stories about deaths in custody, or abusive conditions 110 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: in custody, or the danger that inmates face. But do 111 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: you think that's part of why politicians struggle to grapple 112 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: with this, That it seems like it's kind of a 113 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: no win for them if they're seen to be standing 114 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: up for prisoners, no one really cares. 115 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: I think that is part of the issue, But also 116 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: there is this wider issue that nobody wants to be 117 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: seen to be transphobic. Nobody wants to be seen to 118 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: be saying that a prisoner should be treated differently because 119 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: they are transgender. But the reality is that nobody that 120 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: I've ever spoken to in this area is transphobic. Most 121 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: people are incredibly sympathetic to what most transwomen most trans 122 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: men are going through. A lot of them are very 123 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: vulnerable people, and they need to be treated as vulnerable 124 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 2: people in the prison system. But we can't care about 125 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 2: them at the expense of vulnerable young women who are 126 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: being placed in cells with very violent men. 127 00:08:38,400 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: Coming up is the tide turning. The story that I 128 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: alluded to at the top of this episode about Family 129 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: Court Justice Diana Bryant now expressing some concern about a 130 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: ruling that she made which really changed the landscape in Australia. 131 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: It sort of highlights one of the other questions about 132 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: this conversation about trans people. Doesn't it that although in 133 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: many families in Australia, people who are questioning their gender 134 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: identity are just trying to get on with life, just 135 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: trying to survive. Their parents are just trying to keep 136 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: them alive, keep them happy, keep them going to school. 137 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: And yet in situations where there's perhaps a family breakdown, 138 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 1: mom and dad are breaking up, the question of how 139 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: the child should be treated medically ends up in the 140 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: family court and then a judge is making a decision 141 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: about it. Are we ever going to get a good 142 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: policy if family court judges are making decisions case by 143 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: case that then have big implications for everyone else. 144 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I don't think anybody envies family court judges 145 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: who are having to make these very difficult decisions. But 146 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, they have to be 147 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: based on the science. They have to be based on 148 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: the best medical knowledge, and what we're discovering is that 149 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: some so called experts are using the science very selectively. 150 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: It's hard to probably do science about this group of people, 151 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: isn't it. Because it's a tiny group of people who 152 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: are identifying as gender diverse or say that they're a 153 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: different gender to the one that they were born with. 154 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: It's not surprising that extrapolating from their experience, which may 155 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: well be overlaid with neurodiversity or other kinds of mental 156 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: health situations, policy to apply to everyone. It's a very 157 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: blunt instrument, isn't it. 158 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 2: It is a very blunt instrument, And as I say, 159 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 2: you wouldn't be in the shoes of some of these 160 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: family court judges for quids. But at the end of 161 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 2: the day, You can't just make these decisions on the 162 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: basis of what the child wants. It has to be 163 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: looked at on the basis of what the medical science 164 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 2: is and what the parents are seeking for their children. 165 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: Do you feel as though the tide is turning now? Rice? 166 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: We've now had the Northern Territory and Tasmania say that 167 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: men will not be allowed in women's prisons. For example, 168 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: we've had a Family Court former Chief Justice saying her 169 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: decision she now perhaps wouldn't make that decision again. Do 170 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: you think things are changing? 171 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 2: I don't know. They're definitely changing overseas. I mean we've 172 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: seen big changes in places like the UK, where the 173 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 2: High Court there has made the decision that there can 174 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: only be two sexes, male and female. But in Australia, 175 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 2: I think we're really grappling with a lot of fear 176 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 2: among well meaning people who are afraid that they are 177 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: going to be called transfer if they deal honestly with 178 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 2: these issues, if they deal with them in even the 179 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: most basic common sense way, they are going to be 180 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: branded as unsympathetic, cruel haters of trans people. That's clearly 181 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: not the case, but there is a lot of fear 182 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: out there. And it's interesting that transgender women are now 183 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: set to be banned from all Olympic events from next 184 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: year by the IOC. SO sport's been another battleground where 185 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 2: it's taken a long time for authorities to actually get 186 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: to this point, but perhaps the tide is turning. 187 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: Stephen Rice is The Australian's new South Wales editor. You 188 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: can read all Stevens reporting on this issue, plus our 189 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: coverage of the IOC decision and the Family Court, right 190 00:12:53,400 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: now at the Australian dot com au