WEBVTT - 59. we need to talk about that misogyny study. 0:00:00.070 --> 0:00:07.050 These misogynistic beliefs have been normalized, algorithmically amplified, packaged as entertainment, 0:00:07.270 --> 0:00:12.629 and then connected to broader political grievances. The study suggests 0:00:12.780 --> 0:00:17.880 that if misogyny is an entry point into more extremist ideologies, 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.140 perhaps we need to start treating misogyny itself as entertainment. 0:00:22.540 --> 0:00:26.419 and extremist ideology. I want to begin by acknowledging the 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.420 traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording this 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:33.590 podcast today, the Wurundjeri Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation, 0:00:33.750 --> 0:00:36.750 and extend my respect to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait 0:00:36.850 --> 0:00:41.820 Islander listeners tuning in today as well. Sovereignty was never ceded. 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.440 hey beautiful people welcome back to my channel or welcome 0:00:51.460 --> 0:00:53.599 to my channel my name is charlie i talk all 0:00:53.659 --> 0:00:56.940 things pop culture politics and you are listening to from 0:00:56.980 --> 0:00:59.800 the diving board podcast or viewing it if you're watching 0:00:59.910 --> 0:01:02.910 on youtube welcome welcome welcome i'm so happy to have 0:01:02.930 --> 0:01:06.810 you here i am currently in the midst of pre-recording 0:01:06.830 --> 0:01:11.210 a bunch of episodes before i go to the dolomites 0:01:11.310 --> 0:01:12.990 well okay Let me set the scene. 0:01:13.010 --> 0:01:13.610 Let me set the scene. 0:01:13.630 --> 0:01:15.430 And I'll put on the screen where to skip to 0:01:15.569 --> 0:01:18.250 if you want to skip this part of the episode. 0:01:18.580 --> 0:01:21.580 I am actually going to be hiking in the Dolomites. 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:23.660 I'm going to the north of Italy. 0:01:23.819 --> 0:01:24.280 I'll be in. 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.360 Camoli probably by the time you're listening to this with 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.240 my boyfriend. I am so incredibly excited. And then we're 0:01:30.260 --> 0:01:32.660 going to go to the UK to see my family. 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.440 I have my grandma and my uncle and aunts and 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:36.370 stuff are all over there. 0:01:36.450 --> 0:01:39.150 So I could not be more excited, guys. 0:01:39.209 --> 0:01:40.970 It really feels like it's been a year. It feels 0:01:40.990 --> 0:01:44.040 like it's been a gruel it's been hard it's been 0:01:44.100 --> 0:01:47.750 exciting I'm almost considering doing a little recap episode at 0:01:47.790 --> 0:01:50.290 some point towards the end of the year because this 0:01:50.330 --> 0:01:53.330 was the year that I really took the podcast into 0:01:53.410 --> 0:01:55.490 my own hands and I tried to turn it into 0:01:55.530 --> 0:01:57.660 something and build it and grow it and I think 0:01:57.700 --> 0:02:00.640 we've done a lot but it's been really really. 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.930 Hard It's been so hard. It's been so hard. And 0:02:04.070 --> 0:02:04.670 I think that you. 0:02:04.610 --> 0:02:07.550 Guys know that. I've like kind of let you in 0:02:07.930 --> 0:02:10.190 here and there, bits and bobs. Like there are, there 0:02:10.250 --> 0:02:15.970 is enough little pieces out there to find on like TikTok, Substack, Instagram, whatever, 0:02:16.030 --> 0:02:19.650 but I've never really expressed exactly kind of the process. 0:02:19.710 --> 0:02:21.690 So I'm not sure I'm quite ready to do that 0:02:21.730 --> 0:02:23.929 at this stage, but I think maybe once I feel 0:02:24.010 --> 0:02:25.669 more in a groove, I would love to do a 0:02:25.710 --> 0:02:31.589 debrief on how to actually realistically build something, what my 0:02:31.630 --> 0:02:36.329 realistic experience has been building this and my thoughts on 0:02:36.389 --> 0:02:41.010 going back into a corporate role, question mark, things like that. 0:02:41.110 --> 0:02:45.130 So anyway, I think that will be probably a future episode. 0:02:45.169 --> 0:02:48.560 But now we are here, we are talking all things 0:02:48.750 --> 0:02:53.240 misogyny today. So not exactly the most exciting topic in 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:55.910 the world. In fact, It feels almost wrong for me 0:02:55.950 --> 0:02:57.970 to talk about my trip to Europe while we're talking 0:02:57.990 --> 0:03:01.390 about such a horrible topic. But I think that's kind 0:03:01.410 --> 0:03:03.770 of what this podcast is, right? Like we can hold 0:03:03.830 --> 0:03:06.550 these things all at once. We can talk about things 0:03:06.570 --> 0:03:10.740 that are silly and fun and also really intellectually stimulating 0:03:10.780 --> 0:03:14.220 and concerning about the world. And that's why I hope 0:03:14.260 --> 0:03:16.620 you guys tune in. That's why I love doing this 0:03:16.660 --> 0:03:18.919 podcast is because really at the end of the day, 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.079 there's not really ever a time when I'm with my 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.970 friends and we'll only cover one topic. Like we will 0:03:24.010 --> 0:03:28.000 go from the silliest meme in the world immediately into politics. 0:03:28.540 --> 0:03:32.560 And I think that's very much the inspiration for this podcast. 0:03:32.660 --> 0:03:35.280 And I think it's important to be able to have 0:03:35.420 --> 0:03:40.380 that dexterity, that agility, not to bring corporate speak into 0:03:40.430 --> 0:03:45.270 this safe space. But, you know, it's important. It's important 0:03:45.290 --> 0:03:48.070 to be able to do that. I'm also recording on 0:03:48.190 --> 0:03:51.390 a different microphone. I was having so many troubles with 0:03:51.410 --> 0:03:53.390 that other microphone, which honestly, I put my hand up 0:03:53.410 --> 0:03:55.230 and say, I think it's because my settings were wrong 0:03:55.430 --> 0:03:57.690 and I need to figure that out. So I hope 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:59.700 this audio quality is okay. I'm going to be doing 0:03:59.740 --> 0:04:01.160 some stuff on the back end. 0:04:01.420 --> 0:04:02.460 Don't you worry. Look at me go. 0:04:02.500 --> 0:04:04.800 My little tech hands are going to be... I don't 0:04:04.820 --> 0:04:05.940 know how I'm going to do it, babes. I don't 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:07.600 know how I'm going to do it. I also am 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:09.580 going to give you a heads up that these next 0:04:09.620 --> 0:04:11.600 couple of episodes are not going. 0:04:11.470 --> 0:04:15.589 To be edited as beautifully. Beautifully? question mark over that. 0:04:15.610 --> 0:04:18.280 They're not going to be edited as thoroughly as my 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.900 normal video essays will be. Simply because I don't have time, 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:27.060 I've kind of like crammed everything into a very tight 0:04:27.180 --> 0:04:29.739 space before I go and I think I have something 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:33.930 like four more episodes to film and edit within one week. 0:04:34.070 --> 0:04:35.250 So I'm not sure if I'm actually going to be 0:04:35.270 --> 0:04:39.010 able to do that. In fact I might have announced 0:04:39.130 --> 0:04:42.630 that I'm doing less episodes over this next month. I'm 0:04:42.750 --> 0:04:44.410 not sure yet so. 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:45.760 I'll Hey guys. 0:04:45.900 --> 0:04:48.860 Okay. So basically the plan is I'm not going to 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.380 be doing every single week because unfortunately I just haven't 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.380 had the time. But as I said, I will be 0:04:55.420 --> 0:04:58.500 really active or more active over on Instagram. And I 0:04:58.540 --> 0:05:00.220 know you guys don't all have it, but if you 0:05:00.260 --> 0:05:02.110 do want to head on over there and see what 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.410 I'm up to, make sure you follow. I'll have all 0:05:05.430 --> 0:05:07.409 the details in the description. Okay. 0:05:07.450 --> 0:05:08.409 Bye. 0:05:08.610 --> 0:05:10.690 I'll try and put like a story highlight up maybe. 0:05:11.089 --> 0:05:13.050 for the month of September so that you guys can 0:05:13.130 --> 0:05:15.890 tune in and just like see what is going on. 0:05:16.029 --> 0:05:18.590 What is going on in the House of Commons? What's 0:05:18.610 --> 0:05:19.560 going on? All right. 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.620 With all that being said, with all the housekeeping out 0:05:22.660 --> 0:05:26.300 of the way, let's get into the episode. And I 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.480 should say, obviously, this episode is going to cover themes 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:37.870 of domestic violence, gender-based violence, tech-facilitated gender-based abuse. and misogyny. 0:05:38.029 --> 0:05:41.510 So proceed with caution, absolutely no stress. If you don't 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.480 want to tune into this episode today, there will be 0:05:44.779 --> 0:05:47.539 many more episodes to come and I will be sending 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.159 you lots of love and see you in the next one. 0:05:49.580 --> 0:05:50.279 On the 14th of. 0:05:50.339 --> 0:05:54.780 August, 2026, one of the most groundbreaking studies on misogyny 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.880 was published by Dr. Sara Meagher at the University of Melbourne. 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.659 The study was the first of its kind to show 0:06:01.740 --> 0:06:06.180 and highlight just how far reaching misogynistic content is. and 0:06:06.220 --> 0:06:09.670 how it very often acts as a gateway and entry 0:06:09.730 --> 0:06:14.390 point into further extremist ideology. In today's episode, it's a 0:06:14.410 --> 0:06:17.390 little bit different to my usual episodes. I've actually read 0:06:17.610 --> 0:06:20.430 the whole report based on the study and I want 0:06:20.529 --> 0:06:22.890 to pull out some of the key findings because you 0:06:22.930 --> 0:06:25.270 might have seen some headlines about this, but I think 0:06:25.310 --> 0:06:29.279 it's really important to unpack what the study actually says 0:06:30.060 --> 0:06:32.760 and to take away all the pieces of information that 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.230 I think are really important for us to grasp. So 0:06:36.650 --> 0:06:38.950 without further ado, let's dive in. So this study was 0:06:38.990 --> 0:06:43.550 actually based on the survey of over 1,100 young people 0:06:43.770 --> 0:06:47.450 aged between 13 and 17. So it was focused specifically 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.500 on teens, which I think is a really important note 0:06:51.820 --> 0:06:54.460 for what this study was actually able to capture about 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.180 Australian life and about children and young people and what 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.210 their value systems are. But in the same breath, it 0:07:01.370 --> 0:07:04.830 also looked at over 2,000 adults. So there was a 0:07:04.850 --> 0:07:07.630 bit of a kind of comparison that was able to 0:07:07.670 --> 0:07:11.050 be had between the results from both of these groups. 0:07:11.230 --> 0:07:15.150 The big question of this study was asking what role 0:07:15.370 --> 0:07:20.720 misogyny and misogynistic values play in potentially leading those who 0:07:20.900 --> 0:07:27.530 are expressing and engaging in content with misogynistic values into 0:07:27.970 --> 0:07:32.680 more extremist ideology. And I think what we're most interested 0:07:32.740 --> 0:07:36.260 in today probably is the role of the manosphere and 0:07:36.460 --> 0:07:41.980 online content in formulating these belief systems. But importantly, these 0:07:42.060 --> 0:07:46.210 were not, specifically the manosphere, was not the only entry 0:07:46.270 --> 0:07:51.630 point into misogynistic value systems, which I found incredibly interesting 0:07:51.650 --> 0:07:54.140 and Considering most of the time when we talk about 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:58.040 online content that inspires misogynistic thinking. I think most of 0:07:58.140 --> 0:08:01.620 us just assume that we're referring to people like Andrew 0:08:01.690 --> 0:08:05.070 Tate and maybe Treadwives and the far right in some 0:08:05.210 --> 0:08:09.090 way or another. But we don't really think beyond those avenues, though. 0:08:09.230 --> 0:08:11.310 So we're going to get into that a little bit later. 0:08:11.430 --> 0:08:14.430 But I think one of the most fascinating findings in 0:08:14.470 --> 0:08:18.230 this study, guys, is that essentially misogyny is almost like 0:08:18.270 --> 0:08:23.890 this weaving thread that exists throughout almost every single extremist ideology. 0:08:24.030 --> 0:08:27.650 And this is why it's so profound. profound and important. 0:08:28.010 --> 0:08:34.680 From incel ideology to white supremacy to right-wing politics and 0:08:34.740 --> 0:08:40.400 even to religious extremism, misogyny was present within those belief systems. 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.760 So perhaps it kind of makes sense that it could 0:08:43.820 --> 0:08:47.780 be this almost entry point into something a lot more intense. 0:08:47.940 --> 0:08:50.219 So let's actually get into the stats though, because this 0:08:50.300 --> 0:08:55.410 is where I think we can really paint a young 0:08:55.450 --> 0:09:01.800 people and adults. Among boys aged 13 to 17, 31.8% 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:08.240 thought attempts to give women equal opportunities had gone too far. 30.1% 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.979 thought men had more right to a job than women 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:18.310 when jobs are scarce. 24.7% thought feminism was damaging to 0:09:18.370 --> 0:09:23.620 society and should be resisted with violence if necessary. That 0:09:23.700 --> 0:09:28.929 is one in four teenage boys agreeing with that final statement. 0:09:29.150 --> 0:09:30.990 And you know, the thing is, when it's one in four, 0:09:31.230 --> 0:09:33.959 when it is so prolific, that is not just a 0:09:34.010 --> 0:09:37.640 handful of bad eggs. That is not just a few 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.360 people that have stumbled across the wrong part of the 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:44.860 internet and found themselves in strange corners. That's symptomatic of 0:09:44.929 --> 0:09:49.760 a far wider reaching cultural problem that says that this 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:54.400 value system is okay to possess. And the question is, 0:09:54.490 --> 0:09:59.589 of course, why? This only becomes more compounded with confusion 0:09:59.610 --> 0:10:03.099 when we look at the fact that many teenage girls 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:08.350 shared slightly similar belief systems. Gen Z women were twice 0:10:08.429 --> 0:10:12.530 as likely as millennial women and four times as likely 0:10:12.670 --> 0:10:16.940 as Gen X women in to agree that marriage entitles 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.280 a husband to sex with his wife even if she 0:10:20.380 --> 0:10:23.900 doesn't want it. This tells us that the story isn't 0:10:23.940 --> 0:10:28.880 just about boys becoming more misogynistic, but a broader societal 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:33.849 change that is bringing these values into the entire population 0:10:34.030 --> 0:10:37.070 of young people at the moment. And she speaks my 0:10:37.110 --> 0:10:41.130 language because Dr. Sarah Meagher says that this problem is 0:10:41.170 --> 0:10:45.860 structurally not individual. My favourite sentence to read. My favourite 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:49.239 sentence to read. The argument, as I said, is not 0:10:49.300 --> 0:10:53.060 just this is just one person that is becoming misogynistic 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:57.620 or one person that possesses misogynistic values, but it's a 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:02.730 broader problem that has been enabled by systems, that has 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:06.840 been enabled by norms and cultural value systems that have, 0:11:06.860 --> 0:11:10.939 dare I say, existed in our society for hundreds of years. 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:18.150 These misogynistic beliefs have been normalised, algorithmically amplified, packaged as entertainment, 0:11:18.370 --> 0:11:23.730 and then connected to broader political grievances. The study suggests 0:11:23.850 --> 0:11:28.979 that if misogyny is an entry point into more extremist ideologies, 0:11:29.460 --> 0:11:33.700 perhaps we need to start treating misogyny itself as... and 0:11:33.780 --> 0:11:38.680 extremist ideology. To quote the study, it says, the findings 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:43.280 collectively establish that misogyny is not a peripheral or incidental 0:11:43.380 --> 0:11:48.490 feature of violent extremism in Australia, but a central cross-cutting 0:11:48.570 --> 0:11:54.209 predictor of extremist orientations across the full ideological spectrum. from 0:11:54.350 --> 0:12:00.110 incel ideology and religious extremism to white supremacy and right-wing politics. 0:12:00.470 --> 0:12:04.190 Misogyny was then described in the paper as a training 0:12:04.250 --> 0:12:09.310 ground for extremism. And there's a really great definition provided 0:12:09.390 --> 0:12:14.849 within the paper itself describing misogynistic violence. And they write, 0:12:15.309 --> 0:12:20.150 Misogynistic violence is the practice through which hierarchical gender ideology 0:12:20.340 --> 0:12:25.000 is realised and reproduced. And this practice habituates individuals and 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:29.740 societies to the use of coercion, making support for other 0:12:29.820 --> 0:12:35.800 forms of political violence to enforce hierarchy and order more likely. 0:12:35.860 --> 0:12:39.520 If we think of it as a behavior, as a 0:12:39.660 --> 0:12:46.760 justification for violence. as the entry point into the normalization 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:51.720 of dehumanizing a particular group of people in society, you 0:12:51.740 --> 0:12:55.709 can start to see how the psychology might allow you 0:12:55.750 --> 0:13:01.550 to start dehumanizing other groups as well. If misogyny is 0:13:01.630 --> 0:13:06.090 the belief system that women are inferior to men and 0:13:06.150 --> 0:13:09.630 deserve less than men, then you can start to see 0:13:09.690 --> 0:13:13.300 how if you're conditioned to believe this about half the 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:18.280 global population, you might start to believe this about other 0:13:18.300 --> 0:13:22.839 people as well. Because underlyingly, and this is my takeaway 0:13:23.059 --> 0:13:26.260 of misogyny, it's not necessarily written in this paper, but 0:13:26.420 --> 0:13:32.329 underlying misogyny is entitlement. Underlying misogyny is the belief of 0:13:32.370 --> 0:13:36.089 your own superiority. And if you think about that, if 0:13:36.130 --> 0:13:39.110 you just think about the fact that misogyny allows you 0:13:39.150 --> 0:13:43.660 to believe yourself as entitled to more things, to more 0:13:43.820 --> 0:13:47.059 in life than an entire other group, it starts to 0:13:47.100 --> 0:13:49.680 make a lot of sense that you could start believing 0:13:49.740 --> 0:13:55.130 this about different scenarios, different groups of people and different contexts. 0:13:55.830 --> 0:13:59.930 and that might lead you into white supremacist ideology or 0:13:59.970 --> 0:14:05.650 religious extremism as well. What's exclusive, what's specific about the 0:14:05.809 --> 0:14:11.189 cross-cutting ideology across all of these extremist values is dehumanization 0:14:11.470 --> 0:14:15.429 with the other. Difference and a lack of tolerance for 0:14:15.470 --> 0:14:22.320 difference underpins almost every aggressive extremist ideology. To quote the 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:27.620 study again, drawing on Manny's conceptualization of misogyny as the 0:14:27.660 --> 0:14:33.880 enforcement arm of patriarchal order and Hudson's empirical findings linking 0:14:34.020 --> 0:14:39.690 violence against women to state instability, misogyny can be understood 0:14:40.150 --> 0:14:43.380 not simply as a belief system but but as a 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:49.700 patterned practice of coercion that normalizes and legitimizes violence as 0:14:49.780 --> 0:14:55.090 a tool of social regulation. And I thought particularly that 0:14:55.350 --> 0:15:00.930 first sentence, misogyny as the enforcement arm of patriarchal order, 0:15:01.210 --> 0:15:06.410 is such a fascinating concept. Because in a sense, We 0:15:06.530 --> 0:15:10.130 are seeing, as the Western world becomes more and more 0:15:10.210 --> 0:15:14.710 conservative in its belief systems, we are certainly seeing this 0:15:14.850 --> 0:15:21.390 defensive acting out of very patriarchal figures like Donald Trump and, 0:15:21.510 --> 0:15:26.000 dare I say, even like Pauline Hanson. I really do 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:30.340 consider Pauline Hanson as one of Australia's most patriarchal figures 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:35.130 because of the way in which she is dehumanizes so 0:15:35.490 --> 0:15:41.410 many populations within her political rhetoric. And I think that 0:15:41.610 --> 0:15:45.690 patriarchy is a system of social hierarchy. When you look 0:15:45.710 --> 0:15:49.590 at the fact that she so very often dehumanizes women, 0:15:49.970 --> 0:15:55.020 her statements on domestic violence and gender-based violence as being 0:15:55.160 --> 0:16:01.300 a quote-unquote two-way street. Having been a survivor herself, while 0:16:01.540 --> 0:16:06.160 also talking about you know, dehumanizing Muslim women in Australia, 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:10.460 dehumanizing First Nations people. I really think she is an 0:16:10.820 --> 0:16:16.100 incredibly patriarchal political figure. And I think that obviously you 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.200 totally can be as a woman, like we can be, 0:16:19.500 --> 0:16:22.660 we can possess internalized misogyny as well, as was seen 0:16:22.740 --> 0:16:26.239 within this study. And, you know, with the rise of 0:16:26.460 --> 0:16:30.790 these figures coming into the political space, it's not It's 0:16:30.930 --> 0:16:35.260 not just what we're seeing online. Because when your president, 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:41.440 when your political leaders are possessing these ideas, that's when 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:46.010 we can't just be blaming algorithmic systems. And sure, there's 0:16:46.030 --> 0:16:49.310 a two-way street going on here, not to use Pauline 0:16:49.330 --> 0:16:54.400 Hanson's language. But there is a feedback loop happening with, 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.860 you know, the fact that these ideologies are gaining traction 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.500 due to algorithms that are amplifying the message, which then 0:17:01.570 --> 0:17:05.510 leads to our voting patterns shifting towards people that align 0:17:05.570 --> 0:17:09.350 more so with these ideologies. It's a chicken or egg situation, right? 0:17:09.430 --> 0:17:13.490 But regardless of that, it's not just coming from online. Like, 0:17:13.590 --> 0:17:18.410 it's coming from so many different parts of our existing system. 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.520 And the fact that these voices are amplified currently the 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:27.030 most under the system we exist in speaks a lot 0:17:27.390 --> 0:17:31.250 to the design of the current system. Because if this 0:17:31.350 --> 0:17:35.450 current system is designed to amplify those voices the most, 0:17:35.869 --> 0:17:40.330 what does that say about our inability to address difference? 0:17:40.730 --> 0:17:44.920 What does that say about our inability to embrace difference 0:17:45.020 --> 0:17:49.050 and embrace new things, new ideas? And what does that 0:17:49.109 --> 0:17:52.399 say about the role that this design of this system 0:17:52.460 --> 0:17:59.379 plays in creating these children, in fostering these children's ideas 0:17:59.580 --> 0:18:04.970 about feminism and misogyny? It's a far more broad, it's 0:18:05.010 --> 0:18:09.800 a far more far-reaching idea. problem than just blaming the 0:18:09.940 --> 0:18:15.060 algorithms because, as I said, it's really the whole thing. 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.200 It's really we need to take a massive step back 0:18:18.420 --> 0:18:21.270 and look at how this has occurred. In saying all 0:18:21.290 --> 0:18:22.950 of that, at the start of this episode, I spoke 0:18:22.970 --> 0:18:25.310 about the fact that online content was behind a lot 0:18:25.350 --> 0:18:28.989 of this when it comes to young people engaging in 0:18:29.130 --> 0:18:33.119 and learning about some of these ideologies and And while 0:18:33.180 --> 0:18:37.330 the study makes it very clear that the manosphere and manfluences, 0:18:37.650 --> 0:18:40.889 as they quote, as they call them in the study, 0:18:41.390 --> 0:18:46.760 are very much like the most single strongest determinant of 0:18:46.820 --> 0:18:49.820 these value systems being held by young people. 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:51.220 There were some really. 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:55.180 Interesting alternative ways in which these ideas are being spread 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:57.670 that I think We don't really talk about as much, 0:18:57.750 --> 0:19:01.920 or at least in my circles, we don't really consider 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:08.500 these programs as particularly strong entry points. But most importantly 0:19:08.580 --> 0:19:10.610 is that most of the time, the people that end 0:19:10.660 --> 0:19:14.550 up in these circles online didn't actively find it. In fact, 0:19:14.609 --> 0:19:19.320 the content seemed to find them. creating the idea and 0:19:19.380 --> 0:19:24.350 the conclusion that this is really more a radicalization rather 0:19:24.410 --> 0:19:27.830 than an intentional choosing to align. 0:19:27.550 --> 0:19:28.910 With these value systems. 0:19:29.250 --> 0:19:31.850 And when we use that language, when we use that 0:19:32.090 --> 0:19:37.300 genuinely like national threat language, I think that is the 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:39.540 kind of language we need to use. I think that 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.320 is the kind of significance that we need to hold 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:49.010 this ideology, particularly considering the findings of this study linking 0:19:49.109 --> 0:19:54.740 this content with far more wide-reaching and extreme ideologies that 0:19:54.940 --> 0:20:00.180 justifies the use of violence to seek a certain action 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.260 or behavior change. But the content I wanted to discuss 0:20:03.340 --> 0:20:08.300 that falls slightly outside of the manosphere is gaming and 0:20:08.780 --> 0:20:11.260 And I found this really interesting because I've obviously spoken 0:20:11.300 --> 0:20:14.179 about Gamergate a little bit on my channel, but I 0:20:14.300 --> 0:20:18.140 didn't really, I mean, until Gamergate, I genuinely had no 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:23.410 idea of the significance of the gaming platform and industry 0:20:23.690 --> 0:20:29.230 in perpetuating these anti-feminist, anti-women ideologies. And I've come to 0:20:29.270 --> 0:20:33.340 the conclusion that that a lot of online tech spaces 0:20:33.490 --> 0:20:37.080 a lot of tech spaces in general are highly masculinized 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.360 and what I mean by that is very often they 0:20:40.420 --> 0:20:46.470 have been kind of co-opted by this highly masculine personality 0:20:46.690 --> 0:20:52.210 that has made tech their whole boys club their whole 0:20:52.270 --> 0:20:57.340 personality their whole identity and And when there is a 0:20:58.380 --> 0:21:04.879 movement to make that environment more inclusive, when women start 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.619 entering these spaces and take issue with the ways in 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:13.750 which the boys club mentality has created this misogynistic space, 0:21:14.070 --> 0:21:18.670 then there is a sense of entitlement and personal threat 0:21:19.109 --> 0:21:22.270 that is felt by the the men that found this 0:21:22.410 --> 0:21:25.990 boys club to be their kind of safe space where 0:21:26.030 --> 0:21:29.720 they could be whoever they wanted to be and possess 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:35.020 the kind of masculine identity that they so heavily crave 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:39.260 and oh god it's so nuanced because I think that 0:21:39.460 --> 0:21:42.350 it's really sad on the one hand that men feel 0:21:42.390 --> 0:21:45.130 like they have to find these spaces to be able 0:21:45.170 --> 0:21:49.369 to express themselves in these ways but it's also heavily 0:21:49.510 --> 0:21:55.020 concerning that their identity has to hinge on the belittling 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:58.720 of the other. And I do find this, like I 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:01.860 don't necessarily have the language and words to describe this 0:22:01.900 --> 0:22:04.500 because this is kind of a recent realisation, but I 0:22:04.660 --> 0:22:09.300 do feel as though tech in general, tech spaces, online spaces, 0:22:09.619 --> 0:22:14.600 even social media for a very long time, particularly YouTube 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:21.600 as well, have this kind of boys club design and energy. 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:25.399 And by design, I really mean the fact that the 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.710 fact that misogynistic violence can occur on these platforms means 0:22:28.790 --> 0:22:31.989 that misogyny and the belittling of the other was not 0:22:32.030 --> 0:22:37.359 taken into consideration significantly enough when these platforms were designed. 0:22:37.890 --> 0:22:40.420 And I think about it in the same way that metaglasses, 0:22:40.460 --> 0:22:44.439 for example, were designed with the intention to, well, probably 0:22:44.500 --> 0:22:47.120 collect a lot of data, let's be real, But also 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.060 with the intention to make life easier, be like a 0:22:50.100 --> 0:22:54.020 cool gadget, which is very much marketed for a very 0:22:54.060 --> 0:22:57.590 long time as this boy's toy. Now they realize that 0:22:57.690 --> 0:23:03.810 in order to make the technology feel more accessible and... 0:23:04.900 --> 0:23:08.870 expand their market beyond just like men who are using 0:23:08.910 --> 0:23:11.310 this as like this cool gadget and maybe some women 0:23:11.369 --> 0:23:15.169 as well, I'm sure. They've feminized it with the collaboration 0:23:15.450 --> 0:23:20.600 with Kylie Jenner and various other celebrities. And so they've 0:23:21.020 --> 0:23:26.109 turned this geeky gadget into this fashion statement to try 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:29.590 and access a whole new population. But in doing so, 0:23:29.609 --> 0:23:31.690 they've kind of hit a wall because so many women 0:23:31.770 --> 0:23:34.560 recognize and realize that for the most part, these glasses 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:40.360 have a significantly high capacity to harass women. And so 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:42.419 many of us in the lead up to the release 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:46.790 of Kylie Jenner's glasses, ironically, we're seeing these videos again 0:23:46.830 --> 0:23:50.850 and again on social media of men, usually predominantly or 0:23:51.010 --> 0:23:54.889 only men, wearing these glasses harassing women on the street. 0:23:55.070 --> 0:23:59.010 When you design a product... that can be used at 0:23:59.050 --> 0:24:03.090 such a significant rate to harass a whole population. It 0:24:03.810 --> 0:24:07.510 shows that you simply haven't taken into consideration the fact 0:24:07.650 --> 0:24:11.310 that this could be done. It actually shows a significant 0:24:11.350 --> 0:24:14.740 design flaw. It actually shows that the product is not 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:19.620 market ready. And I think that if we translate that 0:24:19.780 --> 0:24:23.700 concept into tech and the fact that people can still 0:24:23.740 --> 0:24:27.570 be harassed at such a significant level on these platforms 0:24:27.630 --> 0:24:31.490 without really much regulation at all, it shows that again, 0:24:31.510 --> 0:24:35.510 that was a massive design flaw. And that's what I 0:24:35.570 --> 0:24:40.889 mean by masculinized technology is that very often kind of 0:24:40.970 --> 0:24:44.970 the main person or the main customer or consumer that 0:24:45.010 --> 0:24:48.629 was considered was a man which is very often because 0:24:48.730 --> 0:24:52.330 most of the people in the room to design these 0:24:52.430 --> 0:24:56.570 products are men and so the reason I say all 0:24:56.590 --> 0:24:58.710 this is Gamergate was kind of the first time I'd 0:24:58.890 --> 0:25:02.139 kind of put the dots together and realized that the 0:25:02.180 --> 0:25:06.139 design of some of these spaces very much perpetuates the 0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:10.690 types of behavior that is allowed and enabled. And I 0:25:10.790 --> 0:25:15.580 think that Gamergate was a fascinating example and almost a 0:25:15.730 --> 0:25:20.500 foreshadowing of what was to come if we didn't radically 0:25:20.580 --> 0:25:25.200 change the nature of these online spaces. And unfortunately, we 0:25:25.700 --> 0:25:29.600 evidently haven't. To quote the study again, they say, since 2020, 0:25:29.590 --> 0:25:34.209 the European Union and Europol have expressed concerns that video 0:25:34.230 --> 0:25:38.109 games and their associated platforms have such as Twitch or Discord, 0:25:38.210 --> 0:25:41.929 can be used by extremist groups to disseminate propaganda for 0:25:41.970 --> 0:25:47.500 radicalisation and recruitment. These sentiments were also echoed by the 0:25:47.580 --> 0:25:51.440 Australian Federal Police. In a press release in 2023, they 0:25:51.500 --> 0:25:55.060 stated that some of these extremists are building and releasing 0:25:55.220 --> 0:25:58.560 games that are really just a Trojan horse to promote 0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:02.590 their worldview. blurring the reality of young users with the 0:26:02.790 --> 0:26:06.460 aim to radicalize them. Some other entry points online to 0:26:06.500 --> 0:26:10.800 this kind of ideology were online pornography and also online dating, 0:26:10.940 --> 0:26:12.119 which was really interesting. 0:26:12.140 --> 0:26:13.960 I think online dating. 0:26:13.700 --> 0:26:16.580