WEBVTT - The bookie robber's brother. Part 2

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<v Speaker 1>To me, it was inevitable. I think what happened to

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<v Speaker 1>people who live that type of life of violence, they

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<v Speaker 1>die by the sword. People probably wouldn't understand. It's not

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<v Speaker 1>like it is on TV. A body is not cleaned up.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously have they hose off the blood story,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's still very raw.

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<v Speaker 2>It hasn't been through the whole.

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<v Speaker 1>Pretty things that happens at the funeral parlam. So seeing

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<v Speaker 1>that was very confronting.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Andrew Rule. This is life in Crimes. Last week

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<v Speaker 2>we heard the first part of the story of the

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<v Speaker 2>new book Eleven Minutes by Gregory M. Carroll. Greg Carroll,

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<v Speaker 2>If you think the surname is slightly familiar, it is.

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<v Speaker 2>He's the younger brother of the late Ian Ravel Carroll,

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<v Speaker 2>who was in fact one of the six Great Bookie

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<v Speaker 2>Robbers who pulled the Great Bookie Robbery in nineteen seventy six.

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<v Speaker 2>He also knew Vannie Mickelson, who was a very hard

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<v Speaker 2>man to some extent the girl's right hand man on

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<v Speaker 2>the docks, and he had met the legendary Ray Chuck

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<v Speaker 2>Ray Chuck alias Raymond Patrick Bennett, and so he knew

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<v Speaker 2>to some extent half the game. YEP. And that is

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<v Speaker 2>a unique thing to bring to the table when you're

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<v Speaker 2>writing a book that's based on the Great Bookie Robbery.

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<v Speaker 2>And we're so pleased to have come to us. So

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<v Speaker 2>take us to the Bookie Robbery. It happens in April

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy six. Where were you?

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<v Speaker 1>I was working in a computer company in Queen's in the road,

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<v Speaker 1>in Queen's Road.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, Queen's Road. Sorry, Queen's Road, just across the road.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it wasn't Queen I didn't have a view. Yeah

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<v Speaker 1>I was there.

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<v Speaker 2>How did your first year of the robbery on the radio?

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<v Speaker 1>But no, it was a situation which was quite strange

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<v Speaker 1>at the time. Ian asked me out for lunch, went

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<v Speaker 1>on the book on the day?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh did he? Yeah? So funny because he had for

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<v Speaker 2>lunch often.

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<v Speaker 1>No, never first, the first time ever.

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<v Speaker 2>Anybody is interesting later Yeah, well.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's a few I wasn't just the only person there.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a few other people. He knew what time

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<v Speaker 1>of day. Yeah, well, that's debatable. I was called there,

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<v Speaker 1>is it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>I was called to obviously give a statement.

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<v Speaker 2>You could get confused.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I thought I was confused, But so I think

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<v Speaker 1>I said rattled.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, you were young.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think I said it was there from twelve o'clock,

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<v Speaker 1>might have been twelve thirty. But the strange thing was

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<v Speaker 1>it was it was very very soon after the thing,

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<v Speaker 1>so it was obviously.

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<v Speaker 2>He might have gone straight to lunch. Yes, he might

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<v Speaker 2>have been hungry after his morning. And there's no doubt

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<v Speaker 2>he was in the job, no doubt he was in

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<v Speaker 2>the building. Yeah. Yeah, you don't think he was an

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<v Speaker 2>accessory after the fact, he was.

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<v Speaker 1>No, no, no, no, Yeah, him and Ray Ray and

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<v Speaker 1>Ray Track, which everyone causes Ray Bennett these days. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I met, I met Ray through a couple of times.

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<v Speaker 1>By saying met, it was more I was in the

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<v Speaker 1>room at the same time, you see, it.

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<v Speaker 2>Was Yeah, I was that when he got shot. But

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<v Speaker 2>a hard little man.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but you basically got the the feeling or the

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<v Speaker 1>understanding that you were to make yourself scarce when when

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<v Speaker 1>he was around.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, where did you have lunch?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, in the book, I refer to it as going

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<v Speaker 1>to the Windsor, which it wasn't the Windsor Hotel in

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<v Speaker 1>town or the Hotel Wings, And I think it's good.

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<v Speaker 1>It was the Windsor Pub in Paran.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay and you're not dead. Sure what time you got

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<v Speaker 2>there or you might have been there before he was? Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>were you waiting for him? But you turned up held

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<v Speaker 2>up in the traffic?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, as you were.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you say?

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<v Speaker 1>Nothing? It was a no reference to anything during the

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<v Speaker 1>whole lunch.

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<v Speaker 2>And I thought he's with him any mates? Yeah, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>Vinnie Vinnie was with him. Bennie Micholson. Yeah, one of

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<v Speaker 2>a very big family.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I think yeah, I think meant Vinnie a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>He survived. I think yes, he did a long time. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So, yeah, Vinnie Vinniel was quite close to you.

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<v Speaker 2>Were you in touch at all when he was over in.

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<v Speaker 1>The west, So it was he quietly.

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<v Speaker 2>Circulated back here. Yeah? And what was he like, Minnie Micholson?

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<v Speaker 2>Now we're talking here, so our listeners not about a

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<v Speaker 2>fellow that was one of a big family of very

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<v Speaker 2>hard cases, knock about people, and were been long time

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<v Speaker 2>associates of and of of course Bennard or Chuck raychack a. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>the the old time crooks always got him Raychack. It

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<v Speaker 2>was his birthday from Chiltern originally, and and probably Cox,

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<v Speaker 2>I imagine he knew.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't really know where the Cox initial thing came in. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>he was in a long bay at the time of

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<v Speaker 1>the bookie robbery, and it was it seemed very coincidental

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<v Speaker 1>that he attempted an escape. What was it, I think

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<v Speaker 1>about August or September seventy five.

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<v Speaker 2>See, so in the book, might have might have wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to be.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I think he might and in the book I

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<v Speaker 1>actually again the book is a novel, so it's fictitious.

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<v Speaker 2>But with many real names and places.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, And I just thought it was very coincidental that

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<v Speaker 1>because he would have been the type of person that

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<v Speaker 1>probably would have been very interested.

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<v Speaker 2>In the size and the sort of buck that might

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<v Speaker 2>have well had inside him and and would be trusted

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<v Speaker 2>to get it to himself. Yeah. So anyway, sorry, it's

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<v Speaker 2>all interesting. So there you are, you're at lunch, not dead.

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<v Speaker 2>Short time you got there before your brother. Your brother

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<v Speaker 2>turns up. He's got Vinnie Mickelson with him. It was

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<v Speaker 2>Vinnie one of the six, or it was any outside

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<v Speaker 2>the six, because there's always that little bit of slight

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<v Speaker 2>sort of different, you know, somebody says this is the sixth,

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<v Speaker 2>and somebody's got five of them. But this bloke was out.

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<v Speaker 2>This one drove the Van and this, you know, all

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<v Speaker 2>this stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess I've got to go back one step first

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<v Speaker 1>with all this, I just said it's a fictional story,

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<v Speaker 1>the novel it is.

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<v Speaker 2>But we're talking about the difference between the fictions.

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<v Speaker 1>And the perceiver and what happened that Ian never sat

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<v Speaker 1>down and Vinnie I knew Vinnie after he and died

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<v Speaker 1>as well. Neither of ever sat down and said this

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<v Speaker 1>is what happened. But over time you build up a

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<v Speaker 1>picture from little comments made or smirks, or when a

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<v Speaker 1>name is mentioned, you know they have the lookdown or

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<v Speaker 1>look up or whatever, and you build up this feeling.

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<v Speaker 1>And over the years I developed what I considered to

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<v Speaker 1>be the story.

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<v Speaker 2>You were receptive to the intuitive.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, side of it, and that's really what the book is.

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<v Speaker 1>The book is my I would say, it's I say,

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<v Speaker 1>it's an emotional truth. It's what I honestly feel happened.

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<v Speaker 1>But there is no proof, so I know from a

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<v Speaker 1>factual side, I probably you probably know more than I did,

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<v Speaker 1>to be honest.

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<v Speaker 2>But alleged fact you know, this is the problem. We

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<v Speaker 2>learned things and yes, and parent them off, and you

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<v Speaker 2>know some of them are right and some aren't.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so I put together in my head without

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<v Speaker 1>every thinking. So the book was just a result of

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<v Speaker 1>the last couple of years. But you know, the story

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<v Speaker 1>was in my head for a long time, a long

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<v Speaker 1>long time before that.

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<v Speaker 2>How did you find Vinnie? What was he like?

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<v Speaker 1>I really liked Vinnie. He's was one of those tough guys.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a tough guy, honestly, probably the hardest guy

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<v Speaker 1>I've ever known. Also, the him was a lot smarter

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<v Speaker 1>than a lot of people gave him credit for, even

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<v Speaker 1>though being a boxer and that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well he was a union secretary. It was like, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I know that was a criminal organization, but you had

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<v Speaker 2>to be come again in the secretary by being stupid.

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<v Speaker 1>No exactly. So you know, you had to know people

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, to do stuff, do stuff. So Vinny

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<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't have put into the same category category is in.

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<v Speaker 1>But from a tough, tough guy, you know, if you

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<v Speaker 1>wanted someone on your side.

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<v Speaker 2>He was.

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<v Speaker 1>He was the man.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, just to bring our listeners up to date,

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<v Speaker 2>the robbery happened in nineteen seventy six. In nineteen eighty three,

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<v Speaker 2>January the third, Yes, it's pretty well the anniversary this

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<v Speaker 2>January somewhat forty two years or whatever. It might pay

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<v Speaker 2>forty three years or something, since your brother Ian was

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<v Speaker 2>shot dead in what looks sort of like a gunfight

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<v Speaker 2>more or less at Mount Martha. I remember working at

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<v Speaker 2>police rounds at the time. This was a story that

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I others wrote on the day that that

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<v Speaker 2>looked as if had burned Russell Cox. Oh, it was

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<v Speaker 2>although that I think that bit was known on the day,

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<v Speaker 2>but I know it soon came out. He had a

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<v Speaker 2>confrontation with Cox, with fellow crooked Russell Cox, and guns

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<v Speaker 2>were fired and both were wounded. But your brother died, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>and Russell Cox was spirited away with his ever loving

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<v Speaker 2>partner Helen Dean. Yep. Which was quite a story of itself. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>it is quite a story. Yeah, tell them listens. What

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<v Speaker 2>that story of your version of that story about Ian's death? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and Zeth and Cox's escape.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it was Ian's house, yeah, and Cox was on

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<v Speaker 1>the run and Cox escaped. I've got the dates now. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>he escaped from Long Bay or from Tingle.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I think seventy eight for eleven years.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think so. He was on the run at

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<v Speaker 1>the time, and through back stories they knew each other.

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<v Speaker 1>So when he turned up in Melbourne, he wanted somewhere

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<v Speaker 1>to lay lower, and and supplied him the holiday house

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<v Speaker 1>and holiday house. That's another thing too. It was class

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<v Speaker 1>as a holiday house, but it really was in the workhouse.

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<v Speaker 1>That's where that's where things were done. So although the

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<v Speaker 1>cops would go and rousted criminals houses, criminals never kept

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<v Speaker 1>anything in their house because they mean, apart from me,

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<v Speaker 1>they knew.

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<v Speaker 2>The cops goods wouldn't. Yeah, that's too smart.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So this was where off site, off site stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>so ens home wherever it was, was always clean. And

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<v Speaker 1>after they after he was shot, they discovered huge caches

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<v Speaker 1>and guns and everything else in the.

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<v Speaker 2>In the sort of robbery kits. Yeah yeah, yeah, just

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<v Speaker 2>for them for our listeners, things like not only guns,

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<v Speaker 2>but all sorts of good stuff like first aid kids,

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<v Speaker 2>so if you've got hurt and I think temporary signage

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<v Speaker 2>to put on the side of a car saying.

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<v Speaker 1>Career or whatever, and radio frequencies of police radio frequency

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<v Speaker 1>stuff and they were.

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<v Speaker 2>Really quite sophisticated it was, and disguises how you fare

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<v Speaker 2>well or whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, well Cox was renowned as a I mean

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<v Speaker 1>I probably met Cox half a dozen times over the years,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't think twice he ever looked the same.

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<v Speaker 1>So beard, no beard, short hair, long hair, the glasses,

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<v Speaker 1>you name it was. He's always different. But he was

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<v Speaker 1>on the run, you remember that.

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<v Speaker 2>So you met him, You met him in those intervening

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<v Speaker 2>years before the before the gunfight. Oh yeah, you met

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<v Speaker 2>him in that time. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And in fact, I had dinner with Ian and Cox

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<v Speaker 1>New Z on the eight two, so four days, three

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<v Speaker 1>days before them before he was killed.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, now, Greg Carrol, your brother Ian and mad Dog

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<v Speaker 2>Cox said he's Russell Cox, who was dubbed made dog

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<v Speaker 2>by an unscrupulous journalist. As we've often pointed out, it

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<v Speaker 2>was very unfair, unfair to dogs. Probably They had dinner

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<v Speaker 2>on New Year's Eve, just days before the fatal gunfight

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<v Speaker 2>that ended in your brother's death and in Cox and

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<v Speaker 2>his partner, his lover Helen Dean, escaping into the wild

0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.760
<v Speaker 2>blue yonder, which is a story in itself. As far

0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.080
<v Speaker 2>as you know, I think you've told us this. They

0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.199
<v Speaker 2>were quite friendly at that dinner.

0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.920
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, you would have thought they were best mates.

0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.560
<v Speaker 1>So when I thought they were best mates, put it

0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.920
<v Speaker 1>that way, where was that? I think it was in Ringwood.

0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.320
<v Speaker 1>It was I don't remember the actual place. I remember

0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.440
<v Speaker 1>that it was a vegetarian restaurant because Cox was a

0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:52.079
<v Speaker 1>vegetarian and Dean. So what was she like, Helen Dean?

0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.640
<v Speaker 1>She was very quiet, very quiet. And again, if you

0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.679
<v Speaker 1>can imagine being at a table with Cox and Ian,

0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.320
<v Speaker 1>they dominated did conversation and everything. Yeah, Cox was a talker.

0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.760
<v Speaker 1>Oh it wasn't a talker either, but when they talked that,

0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.160
<v Speaker 1>everyone else shut up. So and if they wanted to

0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.640
<v Speaker 1>change the conversation, they would. So you'd be halfway through

0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.160
<v Speaker 1>his sentence and let's start talking about something else, and

0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.040
<v Speaker 1>you knew, okay, they're bored with that.

0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay, nature of the beasts. Yeah.

0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so Helen, I'd have to ask my wife, really

0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:26.800
<v Speaker 1>is she talked a lot more to Helen than oh

0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:27.160
<v Speaker 1>did she?

0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:27.520
<v Speaker 2>Okay?

0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.080
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, it was the three couples. So it was

0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.440
<v Speaker 1>Ian and Ray. That's Ray Lean, not Ray Benner. Cox

0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.640
<v Speaker 1>and Helen and my wife and I at the dinner

0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:44.199
<v Speaker 1>and vegetarian restaurant yet right, which in those days was weird.

0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.280
<v Speaker 2>And but you said, no problem. Well, yeah you want vegetarian,

0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.120
<v Speaker 2>you got it. Yeah, So what did you have? I

0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.440
<v Speaker 2>don't remember something with rice. Yeah, probably it would have

0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.240
<v Speaker 2>been probably a vegetarian carrier. I guess I would have

0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:04.400
<v Speaker 2>gone for I don't remember. Now a very fit fellow,

0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:09.200
<v Speaker 2>wasn't he Cox? Oh? Yes, he still kept it up. Yeah, yeah,

0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:12.800
<v Speaker 2>had the discipline, yep, he just had the discipline in

0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:13.640
<v Speaker 2>the wrong areas.

0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.400
<v Speaker 1>What well, I guess he had to stay match for

0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:18.920
<v Speaker 1>match fit exactly.

0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.400
<v Speaker 2>And your understanding, and this makes absolute seense. He is

0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.320
<v Speaker 2>there's been a confrontation over money, money, because it usually

0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:27.600
<v Speaker 2>is if money at sex.

0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.680
<v Speaker 1>Now, I do believe again it's as I mentioned before,

0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.480
<v Speaker 1>a lot of this is just what I feel in supposition.

0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:35.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, yeah, I.

0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.440
<v Speaker 1>Believe in kept his spare cash, which obviously had a

0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:44.160
<v Speaker 1>lot of down in Mantmartha and I either read or

0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:48.360
<v Speaker 1>heard somewhere Cox actually stated that he returned after the

0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:50.680
<v Speaker 1>shooting several weeks later and.

0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:51.800
<v Speaker 2>Got the money out of the ground.

0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.600
<v Speaker 1>There was a backshd and it had a false floor

0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:58.840
<v Speaker 1>on it. Underneath that was buried a beer barrel, beer

0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:03.920
<v Speaker 1>barrel thing, and the money was shrink wrapped in that.

0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.280
<v Speaker 1>And he returned and he said he left with one

0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:08.320
<v Speaker 1>point two mil.

0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which is a hell of a lot of money there. Yeah,

0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Now I can remember our listeners will be bored with this,

0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:17.880
<v Speaker 2>but I can remember buying a house in the early

0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.880
<v Speaker 2>eighties for twenty eight thousand dollars which puts into perspective

0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:26.440
<v Speaker 2>point two minimiz and even and having a big house

0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.400
<v Speaker 2>at Wonga Park and all that it might have been

0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:33.160
<v Speaker 2>worth one hundred and fifty thousand. Yeah, maybe something like that.

0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.840
<v Speaker 1>When well, I stayed in at the back of the

0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.000
<v Speaker 1>book that I've got a factual. So the book itself

0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:40.800
<v Speaker 1>is a story, but at the end of it, I've

0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.520
<v Speaker 1>got a whole section on the actual facts that I

0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:48.240
<v Speaker 1>know that Approveablen all that stuff. And talking about the money.

0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:53.120
<v Speaker 1>There was a case where Ray Bennett's mother was just

0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.200
<v Speaker 1>before she died, she had a heart attack at her

0:15:56.240 --> 0:16:00.600
<v Speaker 1>solicitors and when the paramedics came, they had her clothes

0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.320
<v Speaker 1>off to get to her and cash came out and

0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.360
<v Speaker 1>they found that she had ninety grand in Cash's with

0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:08.880
<v Speaker 1>a lot of money house in Nicers And that's what

0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.280
<v Speaker 1>it was. It was money, cause it was money for

0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:16.000
<v Speaker 1>her to buy a house. So Ray had given her, supposedly,

0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.560
<v Speaker 1>I should say, allegedly given her the money to buy

0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:19.800
<v Speaker 1>a house.

0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:21.480
<v Speaker 2>He's not going to cause you I know that.

0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.120
<v Speaker 1>But and yeah, in the facts at the back of

0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.360
<v Speaker 1>the book, I say that basically at the same time,

0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.480
<v Speaker 1>I bought a house in Brighton Beach for seventy nine

0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.200
<v Speaker 1>thousand in Melbourne.

0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.760
<v Speaker 2>In Melbourne, yeah, okay, so that was a gives you

0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:35.400
<v Speaker 2>a commadi.

0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so for ninety thousand you would have got a large.

0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.640
<v Speaker 2>Good place out in the burbs yep, yep. So if

0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.720
<v Speaker 2>you went further you get a farm lut like yeah, yeah,

0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.400
<v Speaker 2>if you went to Barrick because somewhere you were yeah yeah.

0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:50.440
<v Speaker 2>That that puts it in context. So one point two

0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.360
<v Speaker 2>minute if a tender thing like right, And it also

0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.040
<v Speaker 2>stands up and this is a constant point of contention

0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:01.000
<v Speaker 2>with some people, the amount that they got from the book. Robbery. Now,

0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:02.640
<v Speaker 2>I know a guy that was in the robbery. He

0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.040
<v Speaker 2>was on the floor and he's spoken to us about

0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:09.159
<v Speaker 2>this different times, and he was a bookie's clerk and

0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.119
<v Speaker 2>pretty wise man, successful man later on. But he's certainly

0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:16.000
<v Speaker 2>not a fool and he says, Look, it was never

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.200
<v Speaker 2>as big a robbery as the media and others have

0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.600
<v Speaker 2>said it was. It might have been double the official

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.199
<v Speaker 2>figure of one point three, but it wasn't lots and

0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.320
<v Speaker 2>lots more. However, other people have said to me, look,

0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm a bookmaker. We lost thirty five grand in the robbery.

0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.200
<v Speaker 2>We were only insured for ten, so that was three

0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:38.840
<v Speaker 2>and a half time. They lost three and a half

0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.919
<v Speaker 2>times what they were insured for, which gives you a

0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.280
<v Speaker 2>bit of an idea about what might have really happened. Well,

0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 2>it could have. The talk always is that there were

0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.680
<v Speaker 2>six of them when they got about a million each. Yes,

0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:55.119
<v Speaker 2>which Telly is with what i've put in what you've said.

0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:57.800
<v Speaker 1>No, yeah, there was a lot of no offense with

0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.679
<v Speaker 1>a lot of press put the figures up at two fifteen.

0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.240
<v Speaker 1>But if you actually work out the weight of that money, yeah,

0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.600
<v Speaker 1>too much. Six men couldn't carry it, even though they

0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.639
<v Speaker 1>were warfies and they were strong guys. It would have

0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.920
<v Speaker 1>been a struggle. So yeah, that figure is out the door.

0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.600
<v Speaker 1>The other thing too, listeners might not aware, but back

0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.760
<v Speaker 1>in those days, bookies paid tax on turnover, not on

0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.160
<v Speaker 1>profits people do these days, So it didn't matter whether

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.080
<v Speaker 1>they won or lost. How much money they actually held

0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:33.040
<v Speaker 1>on a race was taxed, and so that's why they lied.

0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.760
<v Speaker 2>Of course, sorry Allegedly like it's fine, you can say

0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:39.119
<v Speaker 2>that about okay.

0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So you know, it was a big thing that

0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:46.000
<v Speaker 1>they just didn't want to pay, especially I guess if

0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:47.919
<v Speaker 1>you think about it, if you're losing money and then

0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.400
<v Speaker 1>they have to pay taxes on your losses, it would

0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:51.320
<v Speaker 1>have been hard for them.

0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:56.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, but they didn't on tax book. Yeah.

0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:58.520
<v Speaker 1>But because of that, they used to do things like

0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.080
<v Speaker 1>they'd run two bags. Yeah, they got two lots of books,

0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.200
<v Speaker 1>two lots of tickets, ticketing, So they did a lot

0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:07.119
<v Speaker 1>of stuff that you.

0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.199
<v Speaker 2>Know, the good they're good clients. They bet on the

0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.480
<v Speaker 2>nod and it was all settled up at the Victoria,

0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:13.240
<v Speaker 2>at the Victoria Club.

0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:14.400
<v Speaker 1>So that that's what.

0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:19.240
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting, isn't it? Even a little details, there's dispute

0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:24.280
<v Speaker 2>about little things and disparities, which is interesting because it

0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:28.080
<v Speaker 2>plays out all through these stories. In the coverage of

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:32.520
<v Speaker 2>the robbery, it's referred to in the same papers on

0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:36.040
<v Speaker 2>the same day as the Victoria Club, Victoria and the

0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:41.399
<v Speaker 2>Victorian Club, which doesn't matter at all. However, there is

0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.399
<v Speaker 2>a photograph taken on the day or that week of

0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:46.959
<v Speaker 2>the entrance of the Victorian Club, and it's got in

0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.760
<v Speaker 2>the fanlight above the door Victorian with a man. Really, yeah,

0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:52.920
<v Speaker 2>I've said, and I thought, well, there you go. I've

0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:56.320
<v Speaker 2>always referred to as Victoria. Yeah, but a lot of

0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.920
<v Speaker 2>people and I've often thought, well, Victoria is a correct one,

0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.240
<v Speaker 2>but you know, lazy people at it an end. But

0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:06.560
<v Speaker 2>the actual sign, right had anan on it, on the

0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.080
<v Speaker 2>big fan light over the door, in footie letters or

0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:13.960
<v Speaker 2>large letters, even those things. Both statements are correct, Neither

0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.480
<v Speaker 2>is wrong. It was referred to it two different ways,

0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:22.080
<v Speaker 2>sometimes on letterhead Victoria, but on its own entrance Victorian,

0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:26.000
<v Speaker 2>and so many other things about it can also have

0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.760
<v Speaker 2>differing interpretations and a different set of facts, like you know,

0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:38.680
<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump, different different facts. So what you've gleaned over

0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:43.160
<v Speaker 2>the journey, some of it from was from the players,

0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.879
<v Speaker 2>from your brother and from Cox, Vinnie, Me and Vinnie

0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:48.560
<v Speaker 2>and Vinnie.

0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so they're the three that I would say I knew. Yeah,

0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.360
<v Speaker 1>I met Bennett, as I mentioned, yeah, Chuck. But other

0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:59.400
<v Speaker 1>than saying hello, I don't think we have actually any

0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:06.040
<v Speaker 1>had any conversation, and the dynamic in a room would change. Again,

0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.400
<v Speaker 1>people probably wouldn't understand this from the master criminal type

0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:13.200
<v Speaker 1>point of view, but Ian was charming, he was fun,

0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.560
<v Speaker 1>He was a really nice guy. And I know you're

0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.879
<v Speaker 1>not allowed to say that, but he was. But when, but

0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.680
<v Speaker 1>when he and Chuck got together, the dynamic changed.

0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:25.440
<v Speaker 2>More ominous.

0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, more ominous. That's probably the better word to use.

0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes, somebody said to me once one a person who

0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:36.479
<v Speaker 2>didn't like Chuck because her husband was murdered by him. Okay,

0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:40.160
<v Speaker 2>this is Judy Kane, wife of Les, a very interesting

0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:44.400
<v Speaker 2>and intelligent woman and very articulate. And she said, oh, Chuck,

0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:46.720
<v Speaker 2>he was deep and dark, deep and dark. You know,

0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.120
<v Speaker 2>she's sort of this And it was just a throwaway line.

0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.919
<v Speaker 2>Nothing that tells you something about him. You said, he

0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:58.280
<v Speaker 2>was always sort of plotting something, you know, yeah, something.

0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:04.359
<v Speaker 1>Well maybe I mean yeah, well again, the Canes another thing.

0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.600
<v Speaker 2>Bad boys. Did you meet them? No? No, Greg, you

0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:10.359
<v Speaker 2>lived around the corner from your big brother Ian and

0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.280
<v Speaker 2>to something. Because of the gap between you a good

0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:17.840
<v Speaker 2>eight years difference, you actually formed a strong bond with him.

0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:21.359
<v Speaker 2>He sort of regarded you as the little brother or that,

0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:26.479
<v Speaker 2>and you got quite close obviously. When Ian was killed

0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:31.879
<v Speaker 2>in January, that fatal day, big shock to the family.

0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.080
<v Speaker 2>Can you recall that day and how you got the

0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.199
<v Speaker 2>news and how to unspoiled.

0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:41.560
<v Speaker 1>I remember bits and pieces of it all. I was

0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:44.720
<v Speaker 1>actually the one who either elected to or was asked to,

0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:48.480
<v Speaker 1>probably asked to, I guess, to go identify in his body.

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:49.560
<v Speaker 2>So you did.

0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:52.000
<v Speaker 1>I had to go to the Morgan do that, which

0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:53.440
<v Speaker 1>was confront.

0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:55.639
<v Speaker 2>Twenty four years old, I think roughly, yeah, something like

0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:59.240
<v Speaker 2>something like that, relatively young. You weren't seen many bodies.

0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:03.440
<v Speaker 1>No, probably the first, and people probably wouldn't understand. It's

0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:06.520
<v Speaker 1>not like it is on TV. A body is not

0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.800
<v Speaker 1>cleaned up. I mean, obviously they hose off the blood

0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:12.240
<v Speaker 1>and stuff, but it's still very raw.

0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:16.800
<v Speaker 2>Hasn't been through the whole pretty things that happens at

0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:22.160
<v Speaker 2>the funeral parliament, So seeing that was pretty confronting.

0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:24.720
<v Speaker 1>I don't remember how I ended up being the one,

0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:27.639
<v Speaker 1>but obviously I probably just offered to his wife, who

0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:30.680
<v Speaker 1>I didn't want to have to go through that to

0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:38.520
<v Speaker 1>do the identification. The funeral, which was well publicized with

0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:43.119
<v Speaker 1>his cars and well known in biking circles as well.

0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:47.280
<v Speaker 1>The funeral possession was about a mile long out the

0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:51.800
<v Speaker 1>spring Bell and outside the funeral cars there was a

0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:57.160
<v Speaker 1>procession of other classic cars and hot rods, of hyper

0:23:57.200 --> 0:23:59.359
<v Speaker 1>rods and all that type of stuff. So there was

0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:01.600
<v Speaker 1>a large, large group of people.

0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:03.320
<v Speaker 2>How did your parents go with that?

0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:06.440
<v Speaker 1>Again, I don't remember call. I mean father wouldn't have

0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:09.320
<v Speaker 1>been there, he wouldn't have gone. He didn't go. I

0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:14.360
<v Speaker 1>mean he didn't go. I suspect mother would have been there.

0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:19.040
<v Speaker 1>But again I don't know that. That whole period, believe

0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:22.200
<v Speaker 1>it or not, is really really almost out of my mind.

0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:24.760
<v Speaker 2>I know that's what happens that mind does.

0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:28.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I don't really remember that. I have snippets

0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:32.520
<v Speaker 1>of memories of being at his house afterwards, So we

0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:35.000
<v Speaker 1>all went back to Ian's house or ray Lean's.

0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:37.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you were quite friendly with ray Leane. Oh yeah,

0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:40.280
<v Speaker 2>where was she from? Was she from out there? Yeah?

0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:44.440
<v Speaker 1>Their family lived in park Or, which is not far

0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:50.280
<v Speaker 1>from local. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I met her sisters.

0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:53.119
<v Speaker 1>She had a couple of sisters and a father. I

0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:55.679
<v Speaker 1>don't remember meeting a mother. I don't know, but that

0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:58.520
<v Speaker 1>was just incidentally. You meet people while you're at the

0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:02.160
<v Speaker 1>place and stuff like that. But Rayling was a very

0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:02.760
<v Speaker 1>beautiful woman.

0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:06.479
<v Speaker 2>How did she go later? How was she? I had

0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:07.600
<v Speaker 2>a heap of kids.

0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:10.679
<v Speaker 1>They had two, yeah, and that was it. So she

0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:15.800
<v Speaker 1>never had more what else. Yes, she had some other acquaintances,

0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:19.320
<v Speaker 1>and I think she actually did get married remarried. At

0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:22.640
<v Speaker 1>one stage they moved again, I'm not going to talk

0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:27.040
<v Speaker 1>about where they moved to, but they moved out of town. Yeah,

0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:30.280
<v Speaker 1>and obviously their children are still live. So again I

0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:32.919
<v Speaker 1>don't mention them in the Book's one thing for me

0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:35.359
<v Speaker 1>to tell the story. It's another thing to interrupt other

0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:39.240
<v Speaker 1>people's privacy. So of course, so I've tried to avoid.

0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:43.320
<v Speaker 2>That fair enough to I think we'd not mentioned it

0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:47.560
<v Speaker 2>that this stage were clearly the Bookie robbery was a

0:25:47.680 --> 0:25:51.600
<v Speaker 2>calamity for most people involved, nearly nearly everybody. Yes, and

0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:54.840
<v Speaker 2>in fact, even the one survivor, the one that you

0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:59.600
<v Speaker 2>know or knew, Vinnie Michelson, I doubt it did him

0:25:59.600 --> 0:26:02.520
<v Speaker 2>a lot of good. And all the other bugs ended

0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:04.480
<v Speaker 2>up dying young with their boots on.

0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:09.399
<v Speaker 1>Ye. So yeah, there's constantly the talk about the curse

0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:10.560
<v Speaker 1>of the book He robbery.

0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:12.960
<v Speaker 2>But they don't end well, most.

0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:14.919
<v Speaker 1>Of these, No, they don't. And to me, to me,

0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:18.120
<v Speaker 1>it was an inevitable I think what happened to them.

0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:21.400
<v Speaker 1>People who live that type of life of violence, they

0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:23.240
<v Speaker 1>die by the sword. They died by the sword it

0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:27.359
<v Speaker 1>really is, and it's not a curse. It's just where

0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:28.240
<v Speaker 1>they were headed.

0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:31.680
<v Speaker 2>Where they were headed, And of all of them, Cox

0:26:31.800 --> 0:26:33.960
<v Speaker 2>is one that has survived. He ended up pulling his

0:26:34.040 --> 0:26:36.679
<v Speaker 2>head in while in jail and sort of walking and saying,

0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:40.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm out of here, ye no more, I you well,

0:26:41.960 --> 0:26:45.920
<v Speaker 2>until one day we find out otherwise. Yeah.

0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Well I've got different views of Cox, but obviously I'm tainted.

0:26:51.640 --> 0:26:54.840
<v Speaker 1>So but yeah, the parole board thought he had mended

0:26:54.880 --> 0:26:56.520
<v Speaker 1>his ways and they released him.

0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:59.520
<v Speaker 2>And he Cox the fox. He wasn't a mad dog.

0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:00.520
<v Speaker 2>He was a no.

0:27:00.760 --> 0:27:03.400
<v Speaker 1>No, that was really not a not a very good

0:27:03.480 --> 0:27:04.760
<v Speaker 1>name and accurate no.

0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:07.040
<v Speaker 2>And I know the bluck They didn't And he concedes

0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:09.760
<v Speaker 2>that he said it was just just one of those

0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:12.840
<v Speaker 2>things we used to do. But he realizes that he

0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:16.560
<v Speaker 2>was really more a fox than that. Yeah.

0:27:16.560 --> 0:27:21.000
<v Speaker 1>In fact, from my experience with Cox was that he

0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:24.560
<v Speaker 1>was a chameleon. Apart from the fact that he changed

0:27:24.600 --> 0:27:28.720
<v Speaker 1>his appearance all the time, his nature. You see him

0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:31.720
<v Speaker 1>with different people, and he was a totally different person.

0:27:32.400 --> 0:27:35.760
<v Speaker 1>And this is like a barbecue or was that with him?

0:27:36.000 --> 0:27:38.800
<v Speaker 1>You know, he go from person to person as a

0:27:38.800 --> 0:27:43.240
<v Speaker 1>different person. Yeah, And I don't even know if it

0:27:43.359 --> 0:27:46.760
<v Speaker 1>was acting or it was just him in him, but you.

0:27:46.760 --> 0:27:50.400
<v Speaker 2>Would wonder what pressures on some of these blogs as kids,

0:27:50.440 --> 0:27:54.400
<v Speaker 2>what happened to them as kids boys homes Let's say, yeah,

0:27:54.440 --> 0:27:57.399
<v Speaker 2>well that turned a lot of them into very violent

0:27:57.480 --> 0:28:04.840
<v Speaker 2>and strange individuals, and he might especially if they're intelligent, which.

0:28:05.600 --> 0:28:07.120
<v Speaker 1>I mean, to be on the run for eleven years

0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:09.160
<v Speaker 1>is quite remarkable.

0:28:08.680 --> 0:28:11.920
<v Speaker 2>An extraordinary achievement and says a lot about being a chameleon.

0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Greg Of course, the reason we're here, apart from wanting

0:28:16.600 --> 0:28:19.480
<v Speaker 2>to know more about one of the major crimes of

0:28:19.480 --> 0:28:23.480
<v Speaker 2>Australian history, really is that you've produced this rather good

0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:26.320
<v Speaker 2>book eleven Minutes, which for those who are out there

0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:32.200
<v Speaker 2>might want it. It's by Gregory M. Carol and you

0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:37.080
<v Speaker 2>wrote it since over some time after twenty twenty two. Yes,

0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:39.760
<v Speaker 2>and you've explained to us that you'd spent a lot

0:28:39.760 --> 0:28:42.920
<v Speaker 2>of time wanting to do a biography about your brother,

0:28:42.960 --> 0:28:45.480
<v Speaker 2>but realized really a'd be better to novelize it and

0:28:45.600 --> 0:28:49.960
<v Speaker 2>use some real facts and delve into your own intuition

0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:54.560
<v Speaker 2>and snippets of knowledge that you did have sort of

0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:58.240
<v Speaker 2>educated guesses in many ways, and some of them better

0:28:58.280 --> 0:28:58.520
<v Speaker 2>than that.

0:28:58.600 --> 0:29:04.120
<v Speaker 1>Perhaps I mean just the process of going through a

0:29:04.160 --> 0:29:09.800
<v Speaker 1>writing book was quite cathartic, drawing out the feelings you had,

0:29:10.080 --> 0:29:11.800
<v Speaker 1>and that was the main thing. The reason I went

0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:16.080
<v Speaker 1>for a novel is I wanted to show to show

0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:21.320
<v Speaker 1>that these were real people, show some emotion, and discuss

0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:24.960
<v Speaker 1>why people did things. I mean, it's really easy to

0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:27.160
<v Speaker 1>look at the Bookie robbery and talk about it as

0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:30.880
<v Speaker 1>almost a caricature, and it wasn't like that at all.

0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:35.480
<v Speaker 1>Obviously the robbery itself was quite dramatic, but these were

0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:39.280
<v Speaker 1>people who had loves and lives, and even the whole

0:29:39.400 --> 0:29:45.880
<v Speaker 1>ray thing was a degeneration of probably the wrong words.

0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:50.680
<v Speaker 1>He is it was, he went down into the point

0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:56.760
<v Speaker 1>of killing Leskane, then his own death at Brian's hands.

0:29:57.600 --> 0:29:59.600
<v Speaker 1>It was kind of a spiral.

0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Even minutes. It took a lot more than that to

0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:05.080
<v Speaker 2>write it. How long did it take you to write it?

0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:07.520
<v Speaker 1>Well, once I decided to write it as a novel,

0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:11.560
<v Speaker 1>which is basically just using the other information as background information,

0:30:12.080 --> 0:30:15.680
<v Speaker 1>it's probably eighteen months to write, and then it probably

0:30:15.680 --> 0:30:19.280
<v Speaker 1>went through about eight or ten drafts redrafts.

0:30:19.360 --> 0:30:21.400
<v Speaker 2>Did you get some professional help with any of that?

0:30:22.040 --> 0:30:25.360
<v Speaker 1>No, The editing of the book's been praised by a

0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:29.040
<v Speaker 1>lot of people, including professional editors. It's tight, Yeah, it is.

0:30:29.200 --> 0:30:30.280
<v Speaker 1>It was actually my wife.

0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, good. So what's her background?

0:30:33.000 --> 0:30:37.719
<v Speaker 1>Her background as a bookkeeper or accounting. Oh, okay, but

0:30:38.120 --> 0:30:40.560
<v Speaker 1>obviously she's very good at English, as she always was.

0:30:41.040 --> 0:30:43.920
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, she had a lot of input to their shaw.

0:30:44.760 --> 0:30:45.760
<v Speaker 2>Two heads are better than one.

0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:48.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, Ian was actually my best man in my wedding.

0:30:48.960 --> 0:30:52.080
<v Speaker 1>Was it to my wife? Yeah, so that's how close

0:30:52.120 --> 0:30:52.480
<v Speaker 1>we were.

0:30:52.600 --> 0:30:56.400
<v Speaker 2>What were her thoughts about Ian and the whole thing. Well,

0:30:56.440 --> 0:30:56.920
<v Speaker 2>she liked it.

0:30:57.160 --> 0:31:00.200
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I don't think she actually knew k you

0:31:00.840 --> 0:31:06.120
<v Speaker 1>about a lot of the problems. Until his death, the

0:31:06.160 --> 0:31:09.480
<v Speaker 1>Times and I would have together at his house. She'd

0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:13.080
<v Speaker 1>be with ray Lane and they'd be drinking or having

0:31:13.080 --> 0:31:15.920
<v Speaker 1>coffee or whatever they're doing, and I'd be doing things

0:31:16.400 --> 0:31:19.240
<v Speaker 1>go up to the barn, to the shed and stuff

0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:22.200
<v Speaker 1>like that. And so a lot of our discussions were

0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:26.400
<v Speaker 1>one on one, so she wasn't really involved in it.

0:31:26.760 --> 0:31:29.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to ask you to read the opening sentence

0:31:29.640 --> 0:31:32.880
<v Speaker 2>or to your book so that our listeners can get

0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:36.200
<v Speaker 2>a taste of what it's like from the man who

0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:38.920
<v Speaker 2>wrote it.

0:31:38.920 --> 0:31:42.800
<v Speaker 1>It happened just after midday the Wednesday following Easter Long weekend,

0:31:43.600 --> 0:31:46.800
<v Speaker 1>six mast Man appeared out of nowhere, bursting into the

0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:51.320
<v Speaker 1>settling room of the Melbourne Victoria Club. Dressed identically in overalls,

0:31:51.800 --> 0:31:55.200
<v Speaker 1>faces hidden behind balaclava's. They moved like a military unit,

0:31:55.840 --> 0:32:00.000
<v Speaker 1>armed with heavy weapons, machine guns, tommy guns, automatic assault

0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:03.160
<v Speaker 1>prifles and listeners.

0:32:03.200 --> 0:32:06.240
<v Speaker 2>If you want to hear the rest by the book,

0:32:07.480 --> 0:32:10.480
<v Speaker 2>thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald

0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:15.479
<v Speaker 2>Sun production for True crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton.

0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:20.200
<v Speaker 2>For my columns, features and more, go to Heroldsun dot

0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:25.800
<v Speaker 2>com dot au, forward slash andrew rule one word. For

0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:31.480
<v Speaker 2>advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts sold at news dot

0:32:31.520 --> 0:32:37.160
<v Speaker 2>com dot au. That is all one word news podcast's sold.

0:32:37.680 --> 0:32:41.719
<v Speaker 2>And if you want further information about this episode, links

0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:43.440
<v Speaker 2>are in the description.