1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: To me, it was inevitable. I think what happened to 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: people who live that type of life of violence, they 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: die by the sword. People probably wouldn't understand. It's not 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: like it is on TV. A body is not cleaned up. 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously have they hose off the blood story, 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: but it's still very raw. 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: It hasn't been through the whole. 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: Pretty things that happens at the funeral parlam. So seeing 9 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: that was very confronting. 10 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Rule. This is life in Crimes. Last week 11 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 2: we heard the first part of the story of the 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 2: new book Eleven Minutes by Gregory M. Carroll. Greg Carroll, 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 2: If you think the surname is slightly familiar, it is. 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 2: He's the younger brother of the late Ian Ravel Carroll, 15 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: who was in fact one of the six Great Bookie 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: Robbers who pulled the Great Bookie Robbery in nineteen seventy six. 17 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: He also knew Vannie Mickelson, who was a very hard 18 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 2: man to some extent the girl's right hand man on 19 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: the docks, and he had met the legendary Ray Chuck 20 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: Ray Chuck alias Raymond Patrick Bennett, and so he knew 21 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: to some extent half the game. YEP. And that is 22 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: a unique thing to bring to the table when you're 23 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: writing a book that's based on the Great Bookie Robbery. 24 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 2: And we're so pleased to have come to us. So 25 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 2: take us to the Bookie Robbery. It happens in April 26 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six. Where were you? 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: I was working in a computer company in Queen's in the road, 28 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: in Queen's Road. 29 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: Oh, Queen's Road. Sorry, Queen's Road, just across the road. 30 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: No, it wasn't Queen I didn't have a view. Yeah 31 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: I was there. 32 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: How did your first year of the robbery on the radio? 33 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: But no, it was a situation which was quite strange 34 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: at the time. Ian asked me out for lunch, went 35 00:01:58,560 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: on the book on the day? 36 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: Oh did he? Yeah? So funny because he had for 37 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 2: lunch often. 38 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: No, never first, the first time ever. 39 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: Anybody is interesting later Yeah, well. 40 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: So there's a few I wasn't just the only person there. 41 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: There was a few other people. He knew what time 42 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: of day. Yeah, well, that's debatable. I was called there, 43 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: is it? 44 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: Yeah? 45 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: I was called to obviously give a statement. 46 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: You could get confused. 47 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: Yes, I thought I was confused, But so I think 48 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: I said rattled. 49 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 2: Yes, you were young. 50 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: So I think I said it was there from twelve o'clock, 51 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: might have been twelve thirty. But the strange thing was 52 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,839 Speaker 1: it was it was very very soon after the thing, 53 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: so it was obviously. 54 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: He might have gone straight to lunch. Yes, he might 55 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: have been hungry after his morning. And there's no doubt 56 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 2: he was in the job, no doubt he was in 57 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: the building. Yeah. Yeah, you don't think he was an 58 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: accessory after the fact, he was. 59 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, Yeah, him and Ray Ray and 60 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: Ray Track, which everyone causes Ray Bennett these days. Yeah, 61 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: I met, I met Ray through a couple of times. 62 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: By saying met, it was more I was in the 63 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: room at the same time, you see, it. 64 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: Was Yeah, I was that when he got shot. But 65 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: a hard little man. 66 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you basically got the the feeling or the 67 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: understanding that you were to make yourself scarce when when 68 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: he was around. 69 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: Of course, where did you have lunch? 70 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,119 Speaker 1: Well, in the book, I refer to it as going 71 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: to the Windsor, which it wasn't the Windsor Hotel in 72 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: town or the Hotel Wings, And I think it's good. 73 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: It was the Windsor Pub in Paran. 74 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: Okay and you're not dead. Sure what time you got 75 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: there or you might have been there before he was? Yes, 76 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: were you waiting for him? But you turned up held 77 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: up in the traffic? 78 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, as you were. 79 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:57,119 Speaker 2: What do you say? 80 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: Nothing? It was a no reference to anything during the 81 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: whole lunch. 82 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: And I thought he's with him any mates? Yeah, Yeah, 83 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 2: Vinnie Vinnie was with him. Bennie Micholson. Yeah, one of 84 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: a very big family. 85 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: Oh, I think yeah, I think meant Vinnie a lot. 86 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: He survived. I think yes, he did a long time. Yeah. 87 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: So, yeah, Vinnie Vinniel was quite close to you. 88 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: Were you in touch at all when he was over in. 89 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: The west, So it was he quietly. 90 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: Circulated back here. Yeah? And what was he like, Minnie Micholson? 91 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 2: Now we're talking here, so our listeners not about a 92 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 2: fellow that was one of a big family of very 93 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 2: hard cases, knock about people, and were been long time 94 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 2: associates of and of of course Bennard or Chuck raychack a. Yeah, 95 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: the the old time crooks always got him Raychack. It 96 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 2: was his birthday from Chiltern originally, and and probably Cox, 97 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: I imagine he knew. 98 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: I don't really know where the Cox initial thing came in. Obviously, 99 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: he was in a long bay at the time of 100 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: the bookie robbery, and it was it seemed very coincidental 101 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: that he attempted an escape. What was it, I think 102 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: about August or September seventy five. 103 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: See, so in the book, might have might have wanted 104 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: to be. 105 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: Yes, I think he might and in the book I 106 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: actually again the book is a novel, so it's fictitious. 107 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: But with many real names and places. 108 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: Yes, And I just thought it was very coincidental that 109 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: because he would have been the type of person that 110 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: probably would have been very interested. 111 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: In the size and the sort of buck that might 112 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 2: have well had inside him and and would be trusted 113 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 2: to get it to himself. Yeah. So anyway, sorry, it's 114 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: all interesting. So there you are, you're at lunch, not dead. 115 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: Short time you got there before your brother. Your brother 116 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 2: turns up. He's got Vinnie Mickelson with him. It was 117 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: Vinnie one of the six, or it was any outside 118 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: the six, because there's always that little bit of slight 119 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: sort of different, you know, somebody says this is the sixth, 120 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: and somebody's got five of them. But this bloke was out. 121 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: This one drove the Van and this, you know, all 122 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: this stuff. 123 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: I guess I've got to go back one step first 124 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: with all this, I just said it's a fictional story, 125 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: the novel it is. 126 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: But we're talking about the difference between the fictions. 127 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: And the perceiver and what happened that Ian never sat 128 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: down and Vinnie I knew Vinnie after he and died 129 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: as well. Neither of ever sat down and said this 130 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: is what happened. But over time you build up a 131 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: picture from little comments made or smirks, or when a 132 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: name is mentioned, you know they have the lookdown or 133 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: look up or whatever, and you build up this feeling. 134 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: And over the years I developed what I considered to 135 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: be the story. 136 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 2: You were receptive to the intuitive. 137 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: Yes, side of it, and that's really what the book is. 138 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: The book is my I would say, it's I say, 139 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: it's an emotional truth. It's what I honestly feel happened. 140 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: But there is no proof, so I know from a 141 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: factual side, I probably you probably know more than I did, 142 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: to be honest. 143 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: But alleged fact you know, this is the problem. We 144 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: learned things and yes, and parent them off, and you 145 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: know some of them are right and some aren't. 146 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, so I put together in my head without 147 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: every thinking. So the book was just a result of 148 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: the last couple of years. But you know, the story 149 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: was in my head for a long time, a long 150 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: long time before that. 151 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: How did you find Vinnie? What was he like? 152 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: I really liked Vinnie. He's was one of those tough guys. 153 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: He was a tough guy, honestly, probably the hardest guy 154 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: I've ever known. Also, the him was a lot smarter 155 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: than a lot of people gave him credit for, even 156 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: though being a boxer and that. 157 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: Well he was a union secretary. It was like, I mean, 158 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 2: I know that was a criminal organization, but you had 159 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: to be come again in the secretary by being stupid. 160 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: No exactly. So you know, you had to know people 161 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: and you know, to do stuff, do stuff. So Vinny 162 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have put into the same category category is in. 163 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: But from a tough, tough guy, you know, if you 164 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: wanted someone on your side. 165 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 2: He was. 166 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: He was the man. 167 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, just to bring our listeners up to date, 168 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: the robbery happened in nineteen seventy six. In nineteen eighty three, 169 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: January the third, Yes, it's pretty well the anniversary this 170 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: January somewhat forty two years or whatever. It might pay 171 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 2: forty three years or something, since your brother Ian was 172 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: shot dead in what looks sort of like a gunfight 173 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 2: more or less at Mount Martha. I remember working at 174 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: police rounds at the time. This was a story that 175 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: you know, I others wrote on the day that that 176 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 2: looked as if had burned Russell Cox. Oh, it was 177 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: although that I think that bit was known on the day, 178 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 2: but I know it soon came out. He had a 179 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: confrontation with Cox, with fellow crooked Russell Cox, and guns 180 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: were fired and both were wounded. But your brother died, yes, 181 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: and Russell Cox was spirited away with his ever loving 182 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: partner Helen Dean. Yep. Which was quite a story of itself. Yes, 183 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: it is quite a story. Yeah, tell them listens. What 184 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 2: that story of your version of that story about Ian's death? Yeah, 185 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 2: and Zeth and Cox's escape. 186 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: Well, it was Ian's house, yeah, and Cox was on 187 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: the run and Cox escaped. I've got the dates now. Yeah, 188 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: he escaped from Long Bay or from Tingle. 189 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: I think I think seventy eight for eleven years. 190 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. He was on the run at 191 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: the time, and through back stories they knew each other. 192 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: So when he turned up in Melbourne, he wanted somewhere 193 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: to lay lower, and and supplied him the holiday house 194 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: and holiday house. That's another thing too. It was class 195 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: as a holiday house, but it really was in the workhouse. 196 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: That's where that's where things were done. So although the 197 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: cops would go and rousted criminals houses, criminals never kept 198 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: anything in their house because they mean, apart from me, 199 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: they knew. 200 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: The cops goods wouldn't. Yeah, that's too smart. 201 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, So this was where off site, off site stuff, 202 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: so ens home wherever it was, was always clean. And 203 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: after they after he was shot, they discovered huge caches 204 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: and guns and everything else in the. 205 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: In the sort of robbery kits. Yeah yeah, yeah, just 206 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 2: for them for our listeners, things like not only guns, 207 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: but all sorts of good stuff like first aid kids, 208 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 2: so if you've got hurt and I think temporary signage 209 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: to put on the side of a car saying. 210 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: Career or whatever, and radio frequencies of police radio frequency 211 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: stuff and they were. 212 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: Really quite sophisticated it was, and disguises how you fare 213 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 2: well or whatever. 214 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: And yeah, well Cox was renowned as a I mean 215 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: I probably met Cox half a dozen times over the years, 216 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: and I don't think twice he ever looked the same. 217 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: So beard, no beard, short hair, long hair, the glasses, 218 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: you name it was. He's always different. But he was 219 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: on the run, you remember that. 220 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: So you met him, You met him in those intervening 221 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: years before the before the gunfight. Oh yeah, you met 222 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: him in that time. Yeah. 223 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: And in fact, I had dinner with Ian and Cox 224 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: New Z on the eight two, so four days, three 225 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: days before them before he was killed. 226 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: Okay, now, Greg Carrol, your brother Ian and mad Dog 227 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 2: Cox said he's Russell Cox, who was dubbed made dog 228 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 2: by an unscrupulous journalist. As we've often pointed out, it 229 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 2: was very unfair, unfair to dogs. Probably They had dinner 230 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: on New Year's Eve, just days before the fatal gunfight 231 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: that ended in your brother's death and in Cox and 232 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 2: his partner, his lover Helen Dean, escaping into the wild 233 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: blue yonder, which is a story in itself. As far 234 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: as you know, I think you've told us this. They 235 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 2: were quite friendly at that dinner. 236 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you would have thought they were best mates. 237 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: So when I thought they were best mates, put it 238 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: that way, where was that? I think it was in Ringwood. 239 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: It was I don't remember the actual place. I remember 240 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: that it was a vegetarian restaurant because Cox was a 241 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 1: vegetarian and Dean. So what was she like, Helen Dean? 242 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: She was very quiet, very quiet. And again, if you 243 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: can imagine being at a table with Cox and Ian, 244 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: they dominated did conversation and everything. Yeah, Cox was a talker. 245 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: Oh it wasn't a talker either, but when they talked that, 246 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: everyone else shut up. So and if they wanted to 247 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: change the conversation, they would. So you'd be halfway through 248 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: his sentence and let's start talking about something else, and 249 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: you knew, okay, they're bored with that. 250 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: Okay, nature of the beasts. Yeah. 251 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, so Helen, I'd have to ask my wife, really 252 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: is she talked a lot more to Helen than oh 253 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: did she? 254 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 2: Okay? 255 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, it was the three couples. So it was 256 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: Ian and Ray. That's Ray Lean, not Ray Benner. Cox 257 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: and Helen and my wife and I at the dinner 258 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 1: and vegetarian restaurant yet right, which in those days was weird. 259 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 2: And but you said, no problem. Well, yeah you want vegetarian, 260 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 2: you got it. Yeah, So what did you have? I 261 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 2: don't remember something with rice. Yeah, probably it would have 262 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 2: been probably a vegetarian carrier. I guess I would have 263 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: gone for I don't remember. Now a very fit fellow, 264 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 2: wasn't he Cox? Oh? Yes, he still kept it up. Yeah, yeah, 265 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: had the discipline, yep, he just had the discipline in 266 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 2: the wrong areas. 267 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: What well, I guess he had to stay match for 268 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: match fit exactly. 269 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: And your understanding, and this makes absolute seense. He is 270 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: there's been a confrontation over money, money, because it usually 271 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: is if money at sex. 272 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: Now, I do believe again it's as I mentioned before, 273 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: a lot of this is just what I feel in supposition. 274 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, I. 275 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: Believe in kept his spare cash, which obviously had a 276 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: lot of down in Mantmartha and I either read or 277 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: heard somewhere Cox actually stated that he returned after the 278 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: shooting several weeks later and. 279 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: Got the money out of the ground. 280 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: There was a backshd and it had a false floor 281 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: on it. Underneath that was buried a beer barrel, beer 282 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: barrel thing, and the money was shrink wrapped in that. 283 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: And he returned and he said he left with one 284 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: point two mil. 285 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is a hell of a lot of money there. Yeah, 286 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: Now I can remember our listeners will be bored with this, 287 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 2: but I can remember buying a house in the early 288 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: eighties for twenty eight thousand dollars which puts into perspective 289 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 2: point two minimiz and even and having a big house 290 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: at Wonga Park and all that it might have been 291 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: worth one hundred and fifty thousand. Yeah, maybe something like that. 292 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: When well, I stayed in at the back of the 293 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: book that I've got a factual. So the book itself 294 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: is a story, but at the end of it, I've 295 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: got a whole section on the actual facts that I 296 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: know that Approveablen all that stuff. And talking about the money. 297 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: There was a case where Ray Bennett's mother was just 298 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: before she died, she had a heart attack at her 299 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: solicitors and when the paramedics came, they had her clothes 300 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: off to get to her and cash came out and 301 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: they found that she had ninety grand in Cash's with 302 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: a lot of money house in Nicers And that's what 303 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: it was. It was money, cause it was money for 304 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: her to buy a house. So Ray had given her, supposedly, 305 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: I should say, allegedly given her the money to buy 306 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: a house. 307 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: He's not going to cause you I know that. 308 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: But and yeah, in the facts at the back of 309 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: the book, I say that basically at the same time, 310 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: I bought a house in Brighton Beach for seventy nine 311 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: thousand in Melbourne. 312 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: In Melbourne, yeah, okay, so that was a gives you 313 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: a commadi. 314 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so for ninety thousand you would have got a large. 315 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: Good place out in the burbs yep, yep. So if 316 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: you went further you get a farm lut like yeah, yeah, 317 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: if you went to Barrick because somewhere you were yeah yeah. 318 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: That that puts it in context. So one point two 319 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: minute if a tender thing like right, And it also 320 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: stands up and this is a constant point of contention 321 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: with some people, the amount that they got from the book. Robbery. Now, 322 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 2: I know a guy that was in the robbery. He 323 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: was on the floor and he's spoken to us about 324 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 2: this different times, and he was a bookie's clerk and 325 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 2: pretty wise man, successful man later on. But he's certainly 326 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: not a fool and he says, Look, it was never 327 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 2: as big a robbery as the media and others have 328 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 2: said it was. It might have been double the official 329 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 2: figure of one point three, but it wasn't lots and 330 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: lots more. However, other people have said to me, look, 331 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 2: I'm a bookmaker. We lost thirty five grand in the robbery. 332 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 2: We were only insured for ten, so that was three 333 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 2: and a half time. They lost three and a half 334 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 2: times what they were insured for, which gives you a 335 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: bit of an idea about what might have really happened. Well, 336 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: it could have. The talk always is that there were 337 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 2: six of them when they got about a million each. Yes, 338 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 2: which Telly is with what i've put in what you've said. 339 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: No, yeah, there was a lot of no offense with 340 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: a lot of press put the figures up at two fifteen. 341 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: But if you actually work out the weight of that money, yeah, 342 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: too much. Six men couldn't carry it, even though they 343 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: were warfies and they were strong guys. It would have 344 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: been a struggle. So yeah, that figure is out the door. 345 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: The other thing too, listeners might not aware, but back 346 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: in those days, bookies paid tax on turnover, not on 347 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: profits people do these days, So it didn't matter whether 348 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: they won or lost. How much money they actually held 349 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: on a race was taxed, and so that's why they lied. 350 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: Of course, sorry Allegedly like it's fine, you can say 351 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: that about okay. 352 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know, it was a big thing that 353 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: they just didn't want to pay, especially I guess if 354 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: you think about it, if you're losing money and then 355 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: they have to pay taxes on your losses, it would 356 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: have been hard for them. 357 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but they didn't on tax book. Yeah. 358 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: But because of that, they used to do things like 359 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: they'd run two bags. Yeah, they got two lots of books, 360 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: two lots of tickets, ticketing, So they did a lot 361 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: of stuff that you. 362 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 2: Know, the good they're good clients. They bet on the 363 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 2: nod and it was all settled up at the Victoria, 364 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: at the Victoria Club. 365 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: So that that's what. 366 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 2: It's interesting, isn't it? Even a little details, there's dispute 367 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 2: about little things and disparities, which is interesting because it 368 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: plays out all through these stories. In the coverage of 369 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: the robbery, it's referred to in the same papers on 370 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 2: the same day as the Victoria Club, Victoria and the 371 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 2: Victorian Club, which doesn't matter at all. However, there is 372 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 2: a photograph taken on the day or that week of 373 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,959 Speaker 2: the entrance of the Victorian Club, and it's got in 374 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: the fanlight above the door Victorian with a man. Really, yeah, 375 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 2: I've said, and I thought, well, there you go. I've 376 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: always referred to as Victoria. Yeah, but a lot of 377 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 2: people and I've often thought, well, Victoria is a correct one, 378 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: but you know, lazy people at it an end. But 379 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: the actual sign, right had anan on it, on the 380 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 2: big fan light over the door, in footie letters or 381 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 2: large letters, even those things. Both statements are correct, Neither 382 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: is wrong. It was referred to it two different ways, 383 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: sometimes on letterhead Victoria, but on its own entrance Victorian, 384 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 2: and so many other things about it can also have 385 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 2: differing interpretations and a different set of facts, like you know, 386 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: Donald Trump, different different facts. So what you've gleaned over 387 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 2: the journey, some of it from was from the players, 388 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 2: from your brother and from Cox, Vinnie, Me and Vinnie 389 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: and Vinnie. 390 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're the three that I would say I knew. Yeah, 391 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: I met Bennett, as I mentioned, yeah, Chuck. But other 392 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: than saying hello, I don't think we have actually any 393 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: had any conversation, and the dynamic in a room would change. Again, 394 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: people probably wouldn't understand this from the master criminal type 395 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: point of view, but Ian was charming, he was fun, 396 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: He was a really nice guy. And I know you're 397 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: not allowed to say that, but he was. But when, but 398 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: when he and Chuck got together, the dynamic changed. 399 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: More ominous. 400 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, more ominous. That's probably the better word to use. 401 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 2: Yes, somebody said to me once one a person who 402 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:36,479 Speaker 2: didn't like Chuck because her husband was murdered by him. Okay, 403 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 2: this is Judy Kane, wife of Les, a very interesting 404 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 2: and intelligent woman and very articulate. And she said, oh, Chuck, 405 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: he was deep and dark, deep and dark. You know, 406 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 2: she's sort of this And it was just a throwaway line. 407 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 2: Nothing that tells you something about him. You said, he 408 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: was always sort of plotting something, you know, yeah, something. 409 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: Well maybe I mean yeah, well again, the Canes another thing. 410 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: Bad boys. Did you meet them? No? No, Greg, you 411 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 2: lived around the corner from your big brother Ian and 412 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 2: to something. Because of the gap between you a good 413 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: eight years difference, you actually formed a strong bond with him. 414 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: He sort of regarded you as the little brother or that, 415 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,479 Speaker 2: and you got quite close obviously. When Ian was killed 416 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: in January, that fatal day, big shock to the family. 417 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: Can you recall that day and how you got the 418 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 2: news and how to unspoiled. 419 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: I remember bits and pieces of it all. I was 420 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: actually the one who either elected to or was asked to, 421 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: probably asked to, I guess, to go identify in his body. 422 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: So you did. 423 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: I had to go to the Morgan do that, which 424 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: was confront. 425 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 2: Twenty four years old, I think roughly, yeah, something like 426 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: something like that, relatively young. You weren't seen many bodies. 427 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: No, probably the first, and people probably wouldn't understand. It's 428 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: not like it is on TV. A body is not 429 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: cleaned up. I mean, obviously they hose off the blood 430 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: and stuff, but it's still very raw. 431 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 2: Hasn't been through the whole pretty things that happens at 432 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 2: the funeral parliament, So seeing that was pretty confronting. 433 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: I don't remember how I ended up being the one, 434 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: but obviously I probably just offered to his wife, who 435 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: I didn't want to have to go through that to 436 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: do the identification. The funeral, which was well publicized with 437 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: his cars and well known in biking circles as well. 438 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: The funeral possession was about a mile long out the 439 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: spring Bell and outside the funeral cars there was a 440 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: procession of other classic cars and hot rods, of hyper 441 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: rods and all that type of stuff. So there was 442 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: a large, large group of people. 443 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: How did your parents go with that? 444 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: Again, I don't remember call. I mean father wouldn't have 445 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: been there, he wouldn't have gone. He didn't go. I 446 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: mean he didn't go. I suspect mother would have been there. 447 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: But again I don't know that. That whole period, believe 448 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: it or not, is really really almost out of my mind. 449 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 2: I know that's what happens that mind does. 450 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't really remember that. I have snippets 451 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: of memories of being at his house afterwards, So we 452 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: all went back to Ian's house or ray Lean's. 453 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, you were quite friendly with ray Leane. Oh yeah, 454 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: where was she from? Was she from out there? Yeah? 455 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: Their family lived in park Or, which is not far 456 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: from local. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I met her sisters. 457 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: She had a couple of sisters and a father. I 458 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: don't remember meeting a mother. I don't know, but that 459 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: was just incidentally. You meet people while you're at the 460 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: place and stuff like that. But Rayling was a very 461 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: beautiful woman. 462 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,479 Speaker 2: How did she go later? How was she? I had 463 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: a heap of kids. 464 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: They had two, yeah, and that was it. So she 465 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: never had more what else. Yes, she had some other acquaintances, 466 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: and I think she actually did get married remarried. At 467 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: one stage they moved again, I'm not going to talk 468 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: about where they moved to, but they moved out of town. Yeah, 469 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: and obviously their children are still live. So again I 470 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: don't mention them in the Book's one thing for me 471 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: to tell the story. It's another thing to interrupt other 472 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: people's privacy. So of course, so I've tried to avoid. 473 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: That fair enough to I think we'd not mentioned it 474 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: that this stage were clearly the Bookie robbery was a 475 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: calamity for most people involved, nearly nearly everybody. Yes, and 476 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 2: in fact, even the one survivor, the one that you 477 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: know or knew, Vinnie Michelson, I doubt it did him 478 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: a lot of good. And all the other bugs ended 479 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 2: up dying young with their boots on. 480 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: Ye. So yeah, there's constantly the talk about the curse 481 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: of the book He robbery. 482 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: But they don't end well, most. 483 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: Of these, No, they don't. And to me, to me, 484 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: it was an inevitable I think what happened to them. 485 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: People who live that type of life of violence, they 486 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: die by the sword. They died by the sword it 487 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: really is, and it's not a curse. It's just where 488 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: they were headed. 489 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 2: Where they were headed, And of all of them, Cox 490 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: is one that has survived. He ended up pulling his 491 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 2: head in while in jail and sort of walking and saying, 492 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 2: I'm out of here, ye no more, I you well, 493 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: until one day we find out otherwise. Yeah. 494 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: Well I've got different views of Cox, but obviously I'm tainted. 495 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: So but yeah, the parole board thought he had mended 496 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: his ways and they released him. 497 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: And he Cox the fox. He wasn't a mad dog. 498 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 2: He was a no. 499 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: No, that was really not a not a very good 500 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: name and accurate no. 501 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 2: And I know the bluck They didn't And he concedes 502 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: that he said it was just just one of those 503 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: things we used to do. But he realizes that he 504 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 2: was really more a fox than that. Yeah. 505 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: In fact, from my experience with Cox was that he 506 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: was a chameleon. Apart from the fact that he changed 507 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: his appearance all the time, his nature. You see him 508 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: with different people, and he was a totally different person. 509 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: And this is like a barbecue or was that with him? 510 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: You know, he go from person to person as a 511 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: different person. Yeah, And I don't even know if it 512 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: was acting or it was just him in him, but you. 513 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 2: Would wonder what pressures on some of these blogs as kids, 514 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 2: what happened to them as kids boys homes Let's say, yeah, 515 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 2: well that turned a lot of them into very violent 516 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: and strange individuals, and he might especially if they're intelligent, which. 517 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: I mean, to be on the run for eleven years 518 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: is quite remarkable. 519 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 2: An extraordinary achievement and says a lot about being a chameleon. 520 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 2: Greg Of course, the reason we're here, apart from wanting 521 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 2: to know more about one of the major crimes of 522 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: Australian history, really is that you've produced this rather good 523 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: book eleven Minutes, which for those who are out there 524 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 2: might want it. It's by Gregory M. Carol and you 525 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 2: wrote it since over some time after twenty twenty two. Yes, 526 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 2: and you've explained to us that you'd spent a lot 527 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 2: of time wanting to do a biography about your brother, 528 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 2: but realized really a'd be better to novelize it and 529 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: use some real facts and delve into your own intuition 530 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 2: and snippets of knowledge that you did have sort of 531 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 2: educated guesses in many ways, and some of them better 532 00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: than that. 533 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: Perhaps I mean just the process of going through a 534 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: writing book was quite cathartic, drawing out the feelings you had, 535 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: and that was the main thing. The reason I went 536 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: for a novel is I wanted to show to show 537 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: that these were real people, show some emotion, and discuss 538 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: why people did things. I mean, it's really easy to 539 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: look at the Bookie robbery and talk about it as 540 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: almost a caricature, and it wasn't like that at all. 541 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: Obviously the robbery itself was quite dramatic, but these were 542 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: people who had loves and lives, and even the whole 543 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: ray thing was a degeneration of probably the wrong words. 544 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: He is it was, he went down into the point 545 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: of killing Leskane, then his own death at Brian's hands. 546 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: It was kind of a spiral. 547 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: Even minutes. It took a lot more than that to 548 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 2: write it. How long did it take you to write it? 549 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: Well, once I decided to write it as a novel, 550 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: which is basically just using the other information as background information, 551 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: it's probably eighteen months to write, and then it probably 552 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: went through about eight or ten drafts redrafts. 553 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 2: Did you get some professional help with any of that? 554 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: No, The editing of the book's been praised by a 555 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: lot of people, including professional editors. It's tight, Yeah, it is. 556 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: It was actually my wife. 557 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 2: Okay, good. So what's her background? 558 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,719 Speaker 1: Her background as a bookkeeper or accounting. Oh, okay, but 559 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: obviously she's very good at English, as she always was. 560 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, she had a lot of input to their shaw. 561 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 2: Two heads are better than one. 562 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Ian was actually my best man in my wedding. 563 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: Was it to my wife? Yeah, so that's how close 564 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: we were. 565 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 2: What were her thoughts about Ian and the whole thing. Well, 566 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: she liked it. 567 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think she actually knew k you 568 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: about a lot of the problems. Until his death, the 569 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: Times and I would have together at his house. She'd 570 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: be with ray Lane and they'd be drinking or having 571 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: coffee or whatever they're doing, and I'd be doing things 572 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: go up to the barn, to the shed and stuff 573 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: like that. And so a lot of our discussions were 574 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: one on one, so she wasn't really involved in it. 575 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you to read the opening sentence 576 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 2: or to your book so that our listeners can get 577 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 2: a taste of what it's like from the man who 578 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 2: wrote it. 579 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: It happened just after midday the Wednesday following Easter Long weekend, 580 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: six mast Man appeared out of nowhere, bursting into the 581 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: settling room of the Melbourne Victoria Club. Dressed identically in overalls, 582 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: faces hidden behind balaclava's. They moved like a military unit, 583 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: armed with heavy weapons, machine guns, tommy guns, automatic assault 584 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: prifles and listeners. 585 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 2: If you want to hear the rest by the book, 586 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 2: thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald 587 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 2: Sun production for True crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. 588 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 2: For my columns, features and more, go to Heroldsun dot 589 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 2: com dot au, forward slash andrew rule one word. For 590 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 2: advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts sold at news dot 591 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 2: com dot au. That is all one word news podcast's sold. 592 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,719 Speaker 2: And if you want further information about this episode, links 593 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 2: are in the description.