Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. Since
Speaker 1: the ceasefire was announced late last year, Gaza has dropped
Speaker 1: out of the headlines, but the horror of living there
Speaker 1: hasn't stopped. Israel has killed at least eight hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty seven people in Gaza and wounded almost two thousand,
Speaker 1: five hundred in near daily attacks since past October, and
Speaker 1: Palestinians are still in a daily struggle for survival. Independent journalist,
Speaker 1: author of The Palestine Laboratory and filmmaker Anthony Lowenstein recently
Speaker 1: traveled to the Middle East and has been speaking to
Speaker 1: people in Gaza. Today, he tells us about what he
Speaker 1: saw on the West Bank and the future for Palestine.
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, July eighth. So, Anthony, you've recently traveled to
Speaker 1: the at least including to the West Bank, which I
Speaker 1: want to ask you about. But to begin with, obviously
Speaker 1: it's incredibly difficult to get in or out of Gaza
Speaker 1: at the moment, but I know that you spoke to
Speaker 1: people there and have been speaking to people regularly. So
Speaker 1: could you start by telling me a bit about what
Speaker 1: they say to you about what life is like in
Speaker 1: Gaza right now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's worth this reminding people that the situation in
Speaker 2: Gaza obviously has been or the war, the genocide has
Speaker 2: been going for nearly three years, and basically no international
Speaker 2: journalists have been allowed in apart from a handful who
Speaker 2: will take official Israeli military tours. Something I've done that
Speaker 2: it's obviously a propaganda toour but if you want to
Speaker 2: be an independent journalist, no one's getting it, literally nobody.
Speaker 2: I have got a number of contacts in Gaza who
Speaker 2: are Palestinian who are living there, including a doctor who've
Speaker 2: had contact with for a while. One of the things
Speaker 2: the real challenges, he says to me, is people have
Speaker 2: no hope. There's no sense that things are going to change.
Speaker 2: That there's no rebuilding, there's no pathway, there's no sense
Speaker 2: of a future. There's it's Raeli government ministers literally saying
Speaker 2: every day our goal is still to remove all Palestinians
Speaker 2: from Garth, not talking about killing them all, but finding.
Speaker 3: Countries that will take them.
Speaker 2: So when I speak to this doctor, he said to
Speaker 2: me recently he organized this day for kids.
Speaker 3: I saw photographs these kids were maybe eight, nine, ten,
Speaker 3: and to.
Speaker 2: Try to give them some color, some fun, some enjoyment.
Speaker 2: They were playing games, pretty basic stuff that any kid
Speaker 2: would enjoy, but because these children have been through such
Speaker 2: hell for the last three odd years, he said, the
Speaker 2: kids really enjoyed it as almost to take their mind
Speaker 2: off the horrors when they leave this place. And he
Speaker 2: showed me the photos. There was balloons up and streamers
Speaker 2: and just trying to give a bit of you know,
Speaker 2: basic stuff that any kid in the world really enjoys,
Speaker 2: or adult for that matter. But then they go back
Speaker 2: to their reality where this finally he showed me also
Speaker 2: photos of there's no decent sanitation, and this is across
Speaker 2: the whole of Gaza, so diseases from this lack of
Speaker 2: sanitation is rampant. There's lots of stories of when people
Speaker 2: are sleeping in their tents. Don't forget it's the middle
Speaker 2: of some of there, so of course it's incredibly hot.
Speaker 2: There are lots of rats running around. All of gars
Speaker 2: are biting, particularly when adults too are particularly kids, getting
Speaker 2: lots of diseases. It's completely it's still apocalyptic. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's the best way to describe it. It's both what
Speaker 2: he has said to me, this garz and doctor, and
Speaker 2: what I'm hearing And what other story is briefly Ruby
Speaker 2: Worth telling, is that a friend of mine, Palestinian, who
Speaker 2: has family still in gazas she's left. She was telling
Speaker 2: me that recently, because there's no sanitation, people have to
Speaker 2: find their own way to go to the toilet basically,
Speaker 2: and this family member was digging a latrine pit away
Speaker 2: to dispose of human waste, and while he was digging there,
Speaker 2: he fell in and he couldn't get out. And she
Speaker 2: was telling me about just the fear of this, that
Speaker 2: this person thought they were going to die, they could
Speaker 2: not get out. Someone else goes to help them, they
Speaker 2: also fall in. Now you can just sort of when
Speaker 2: I tell that story, you can almost just picture the
Speaker 2: sense of think about thirty five forty degrees. The smells
Speaker 2: must be just unimaginable. They eventually got out, they survived,
Speaker 2: but that level of desperation and really just the most
Speaker 2: basic daily tasks are herculean. And it's hard not to
Speaker 2: feel both devastated and infuriated that this doesn't get much
Speaker 2: coverage anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't, And a lot of that is to do, obviously,
Speaker 1: with the war in Iran taking up headlines and the
Speaker 1: fact that there has been a quote unquote ceasefire in
Speaker 1: place since last October, but bombs haven't stopped falling, attacks
Speaker 1: haven't stopped happening. And guys, so tell me about the
Speaker 1: scale of what we still are seeing happened since last October.
Speaker 2: The number of Palestinians who have been killed since October,
Speaker 2: the vast majority of hum as civilians, is at least
Speaker 2: a thousand. That's what a so called ceasefire means. So
Speaker 2: when a lot of Palestinians here the term cease fire,
Speaker 2: whether it's in Gas or Lebanon or elsewhere, they're rightly
Speaker 2: skeptical because they just look at it and go, well,
Speaker 2: this is what's been happening to us. I've seen footage
Speaker 2: some other people may have as well, of tents on fire,
Speaker 2: people literally being burnt, Israel bombing tents where civilians are sleeping,
Speaker 2: are living. There are some Palestinians in Gars who do
Speaker 2: live in homes, but when I use that word, I
Speaker 2: use it advisedly.
Speaker 3: They're often crumbling.
Speaker 2: But what people are telling me there is the lack
Speaker 2: of access to food. Food is incredibly expensive, and I
Speaker 2: think one thing also people need to understand when the
Speaker 2: so called ceasefire was signed there was a sense that
Speaker 2: Israel was going to control roughly fifty or so percent
Speaker 2: and Hummas basedly the other fifty percent, give or take. Well,
Speaker 2: here we are in July twenty twenty six, and Israel
Speaker 2: now controls about seventy percent of Gaza. Now the other
Speaker 2: thirty percent are roughly controlled by Hummas. But it's worth
Speaker 2: saying that what Israel is doing to try to get
Speaker 2: more than seventy percent is fund and arm Palestinian militia
Speaker 2: groups to fight Hummas for them, in other words, to
Speaker 2: try to cause a civil war or civil unrest. Now
Speaker 2: there's been some reporting about this. I've heard this from
Speaker 2: my own sources as well. This is kind of the
Speaker 2: divide and conquer mentality. So when Israel has now controlled
Speaker 2: seventy percent, there's no rebuilding, there's no rebuilding materials getting in,
Speaker 2: there's no pathway. The so called Bord of Peace that
Speaker 2: Donald Trump and others have been backing, it's kind of
Speaker 2: been quasi limbo. They had meetings in caire ever, doesn't
Speaker 2: really go anywhere. There was a storing the Guardian just
Speaker 2: this week talking about how the Board of Peace wants
Speaker 2: to give themselves legal immunity in case they do something
Speaker 2: that someone doesn't like. I mean, it's kind of a
Speaker 2: it's all a sham. And meanwhile, the Palestinians themselves are
Speaker 2: living in this state of limbo is too mild a word,
Speaker 2: ruby in a they're alive, but they're basically the living dead.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because we're supposedly in phase two of a ceasefire
Speaker 1: in Guys and now whether the aim is supposed to
Speaker 1: be demilitarization and reconstruction, but you're saying, none of that
Speaker 1: is happening on the ground.
Speaker 3: None of it's happening on the ground. There's no rebuilding.
Speaker 3: I mean the vision so to speak, that's been put
Speaker 3: forward by Donald.
Speaker 2: Trump and Jared Kushner, his son in law, who has
Speaker 2: no official role in a weird way, but yet it's
Speaker 2: apparently the one who's leading this is as people may
Speaker 2: remember from a number of months ago, kind of skyscrapers
Speaker 2: and beautiful beach resorts.
Speaker 3: I mean, just illusional nonsense.
Speaker 2: No Palestinians in Gaza A want that, and b they're
Speaker 2: living intents that are being bombed. So when you have
Speaker 2: the Australian government talk about we're very glad that there's
Speaker 2: a ceasefire, you just want to say what planet I
Speaker 2: live on.
Speaker 3: They know what's going on.
Speaker 2: They know they don't want to, I guess kick the
Speaker 2: hornet's nest, so to speak, namely to be TI critical
Speaker 2: of Israel. But they know there's no cease fire. There's
Speaker 2: a cease firing name and there's no rebuilding.
Speaker 4: And as I said, the Israeli governments literally every week,
Speaker 4: including this week again a senior Israeli government minister saying,
Speaker 4: our ultimate goal is to kick all the Palestinians out.
Speaker 1: Today the idea of holds nearly seventy percent of the
Speaker 1: Gaza Strip, must complete the conquest of the remaining thirty percent,
Speaker 1: defeat a mass and above all, Benita establish a belt
Speaker 1: of Jewish settlements.
Speaker 3: It's in the territory of the Strip. That's his words,
Speaker 3: not mine. So it is yeah, as grim as you
Speaker 3: could imagine, ruby.
Speaker 1: Still to come the future for the West Bank. Let's
Speaker 1: talk a bit about the West Bank, because you actually
Speaker 1: did go there, you spoke to people, you traveled around,
Speaker 1: you went to some fairly remote parts of the West Bank.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me a bit about what you saw.
Speaker 2: One of the things that people need to understand is
Speaker 2: that when you're in Israel, itself. It can seem like
Speaker 2: everything is normal. When I used the term normal, obviously
Speaker 2: this is a time where there was still Iran and
Speaker 2: the US and Israel at war. So when I say normally,
Speaker 2: I use that term very advisedly. But if you're in
Speaker 2: Tel Aviv or even Jerusalem, you don't see houses being bombed,
Speaker 2: you don't see settlers running wild.
Speaker 3: You drive for an hour or so. I was in
Speaker 3: Tel Aviv.
Speaker 2: I went to the West Bank, and as soon as
Speaker 2: you cross into the West Bank you start seeing a
Speaker 2: few things. One which was not there before October seven,
Speaker 2: killer meter upon kilometer upon killer meter, every few meters
Speaker 2: of Israeli flags literally the entire way around and the
Speaker 2: West Bank, which obviously is a statement to say this
Speaker 2: is ours. I was there on a day where it
Speaker 2: was thirty five forty degrees searing hot.
Speaker 3: It sort of feels like biblical times. There is barren ground.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've spent time with the family there who
Speaker 2: lived in literally caves.
Speaker 3: They literally live in a cave.
Speaker 2: They were petrified, not of us, but they were petrified
Speaker 2: of their day to day life. Settlers come there regularly
Speaker 2: to assault them, to abuse them, to kill their sheep.
Speaker 3: There's lots of footage.
Speaker 2: People may have seen some of it of settlers burning
Speaker 2: Palestinian olive groves, burning their farms, killing their animals, assisting
Speaker 2: the dispossession of Palestine's I mean, this is what the
Speaker 2: occupation means.
Speaker 1: A centuries old olive grove in ruins, flames licking at
Speaker 1: the stones of the fifth century church.
Speaker 2: Which talk to and then the Israeli army comes to
Speaker 2: assist the settlers, and the goal is clear, is to
Speaker 2: kick them off the land. And what we're seeing, and
Speaker 2: I saw this time and time again, I heard this
Speaker 2: from people, is that eventually people have a breaking point.
Speaker 2: You're not going to spend if you have a family,
Speaker 2: not going to live in a place where you feel
Speaker 2: literally threatened every day.
Speaker 3: So what happens these Palestinians leave.
Speaker 2: So the village that we went to, when I say village,
Speaker 2: we drove for an hour on initially rocky, difficult road
Speaker 2: got to this area. There were Palestinians who started talking
Speaker 2: to us about what that experience with settlers. The settlers
Speaker 2: were coming literally every day, attacking them. Often because these
Speaker 2: areas are so remote, people can't get access to water,
Speaker 2: so Palestines have to pay water trucks to come and
Speaker 2: deliver the water, but often the settlers block that water,
Speaker 2: so therefore they don't get water.
Speaker 3: It's the middle of summer, I mean, it is.
Speaker 2: Grim and people might say, well, why do they live
Speaker 2: there on't they go somewhere which is easier. I mean
Speaker 2: the response to that is, well, this is their homes.
Speaker 2: I mean, some of these people have been there for
Speaker 2: literary generations. They have rights to this land. And yet
Speaker 2: all the people that we met, the Palestinians were basically
Speaker 2: say they didn't quite say it like this, but it
Speaker 2: was implied, we don't know how long we're going to
Speaker 2: be able to survive here. So what I saw was,
Speaker 2: on the one hand, not overly surprising as someone who's
Speaker 2: been reporting on this for twenty years, but also what
Speaker 2: shocked me in a way was it has gone so
Speaker 2: far worse than what it has been in the past,
Speaker 2: particularly since October seven, because the world was focused on Gaza,
Speaker 2: whereas in the West Bank the plan is clear as
Speaker 2: it is in Gaza Ruby, the Israeli government plan is
Speaker 2: to remove all Palestinians from the West Bank. That remains
Speaker 2: the goal. There's three million of them. To make life
Speaker 2: so impossible and unlivable. That Israel again is trying to
Speaker 2: find places where they will be forcibly moved. This is
Speaker 2: the goal. It's not simply all we sh had stopped
Speaker 2: some set of violence. If the Australian government says this
Speaker 2: is not the issue, of course set of violence is terrible.
Speaker 2: But the broader picture is to make life impossible for
Speaker 2: Palestinians in the West Bank.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't have broad US support. I mean, Trump
Speaker 1: is publicly opposed annexation of the West Bank many times.
Speaker 1: The partnership between Trump and netna who is less stable
Speaker 1: than it has been for the past two years. At
Speaker 1: this moment in time, do you think that the US
Speaker 1: is likely to try and intervene at all in terms
Speaker 1: of what's happening in the West Bank?
Speaker 2: If only, if only ruby I mean, this is the
Speaker 2: same argument that was made when Biden was president, where
Speaker 2: we kept on reading stories and sent outlets said Biden
Speaker 2: is very upset with NETTNA who around what's happening in
Speaker 2: guards and near the weapons, and the support kept flowing.
Speaker 2: I see a lot of the supposed issues between Trump
Speaker 2: and netsigna who or JD Van says kind of theater
Speaker 2: they may well be pissed off with him. They may
Speaker 2: well think that he's a bit of a rogue. But
Speaker 2: ultimately they're not stopping anything like they what are they stopping.
Speaker 2: The weapons are still going, the support is still going,
Speaker 2: the diplomatic backing is still going. And I don't really
Speaker 2: think that there is any concern for the lives of Palestinians.
Speaker 2: I mean, do we think Donald Trump cares about Palestinians
Speaker 2: or jd Vance for that matter. I think that the
Speaker 2: US could play a hugely important role in stopping what's
Speaker 2: going on, And of course he shoul annexation. Is it's
Speaker 2: happening anyway, Ruby, Maybe not officially, annexation is happening. It
Speaker 2: might not be officially declared, but this is what is
Speaker 2: going on. So on the one hand, there has never
Speaker 2: been more support for Palestinian rights in the West. Poll
Speaker 2: after poll after poll shows that support for Israel as
Speaker 2: in the toilet, and yet on the ground, lives for
Speaker 2: Palestinians has become impossible, and I fear in years to
Speaker 2: come that there will be very few Palestinians left there.
Speaker 2: I mean, that is the trajectory and it's petrifying.
Speaker 1: Anthony, thank you so much for speaking with me.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Ruby.
Speaker 1: Also in the news, Anthony Albinizi says Australia wasn't given
Speaker 1: enough notice after China's missile test in the Pacific yesterday.
Speaker 1: The Prime Minister says there should have been forty eight
Speaker 1: hours warning before the test was launched. He spoke at
Speaker 1: a press conference alongside his Solomon Island's counterpart, Matthew Whale,
Speaker 1: who condemned the exercise, saying it's not something a friend does.
Speaker 1: And the NRL has announced the most expensive rights deal
Speaker 1: for an Australian code in sporting history. Nine and Foxtail
Speaker 1: unveiled a five point three billion dollar agreement to continue
Speaker 1: airing rugby league until twenty thirty four. The Foxtail boss
Speaker 1: dodged questions about whether the extra money being paid would
Speaker 1: see subscription costs hiked for sports fans. I'm Ruby Jones.
Speaker 1: This is seven am. Thanks for listening.
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