Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. After several
Speaker 1: days of replaying and considering everything that Judy Singh had
Speaker 1: described in episode seven, and he sounded like a man
Speaker 1: ready to make a citizens arrest over his sister's disappearance.
Speaker 1: There was anger below the surface. He was apprehensive about
Speaker 1: what would happen next with police. He was impatient for action,
Speaker 1: but he was also relieved about something. Andy has suspected
Speaker 1: John infoul play since a couple of months after Bromwin vanished.
Speaker 1: But Andy is confident now that a puzzling thing which
Speaker 1: had been nagging him for thirty one years has been answered.
Speaker 1: I'm interested in hearing your idea about this eleven oh
Speaker 1: six pm receipt for fuel that was purchased on the
Speaker 1: Sunday night, May sixteen, nineteen ninety three. Yep, You've been
Speaker 1: giving that a bit of thought since Judy Singh came
Speaker 1: forward in the podcast.
Speaker 2: Why did he have to prove to Michelle and produce
Speaker 2: a receipt for petrol and then again when I got home?
Speaker 2: Maybe whatever it was half an hour or say, forty
Speaker 2: minutes later, and then he gets the receipt out and
Speaker 2: wants to show it to me, and then we all
Speaker 2: I through to ninety eight and Glen Taylor, and one
Speaker 2: of the first things that he wants to do with
Speaker 2: Glen Taylor is showing a receipt for petrol and in
Speaker 2: Ballina for eleven oh six.
Speaker 1: Evidence and the vivid recollections from people about John's reliance
Speaker 1: on the petrol receipt way back in May nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: three and over subsequent years has featured in a number
Speaker 1: of the recorded interviews I've done over the past several years.
Speaker 1: Clearly it's been on our minds well before we heard
Speaker 1: Judy Singh's revelations. Here's the retired detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor
Speaker 1: talking to me in March twenty twenty one when I
Speaker 1: went to his house in Ballina during that interview that
Speaker 1: you did with Jonathan Winfield, can you describe the circumstances
Speaker 1: surrounding him retrieving a receipt.
Speaker 3: I said, look, we want to go over again your
Speaker 3: movements on that night, and then he said, well look.
Speaker 1: I sat there for a while thinking what to do.
Speaker 3: I had worked to finish off down there, and then
Speaker 3: he said, well, look, I've actually even got a receipt.
Speaker 3: I can show you I've purchased fuel for the car,
Speaker 3: and he took his wallet out. For years later, he
Speaker 3: still had this receipt in his wallet showing that he
Speaker 3: purchased fuel at eleven a six pm.
Speaker 1: That night in Ballina.
Speaker 4: He felt the need to retain.
Speaker 3: That receipt all those years and still had it in
Speaker 3: his wallet. These were things that he believed that were
Speaker 3: prime things in his defense.
Speaker 1: And what was the significance in your mind in that
Speaker 1: interview of him pulling out that piece of paper, the receipt, Well,
Speaker 1: look here I am.
Speaker 3: I'm definitely in Balaner at eleven a six pm that
Speaker 3: night getting fuel.
Speaker 1: How does that help him?
Speaker 3: I don't know, but he seemed to think it was
Speaker 3: a fund significance that night to say I've given down servitation.
Speaker 3: I made a decision to go to Sydney. I needed
Speaker 3: to get fuel and this is where I filled up
Speaker 3: just before I started driving to Sydney.
Speaker 1: He's not attempted to disguise the fact that he was
Speaker 1: at the house and that he was talking to his
Speaker 1: wife in the evening at the house. So it's a
Speaker 1: bit of a puzzle as to why that has been
Speaker 1: so important for him.
Speaker 3: It is a puzzle and it still remains a puzzle.
Speaker 1: Is there something that is missing in terms of understanding
Speaker 1: his latching onto that receipt as something significant? There's something
Speaker 1: that everyone's miss well.
Speaker 3: I don't know why he wanted to show this, not
Speaker 3: only to the police but also to Roman's family members
Speaker 3: that here I am in Bow and look I've got
Speaker 3: this receipt.
Speaker 4: It's still puzzling.
Speaker 1: And were you able to verify the authenticity of the receipt.
Speaker 3: There's nothing to suggest that the receipt was a forgery.
Speaker 3: In so it didn't appear that he did get fuel
Speaker 3: at eleven o six pm. But it's obviously going to
Speaker 3: take a number of hours to get to Sydney, and
Speaker 3: we've got evidence he had arrived down in Sydney to
Speaker 3: his ex wash home the next morning with the children,
Speaker 3: but we've got no other evidence to suggest where he
Speaker 3: may have gone during the course that night or after
Speaker 3: we dropped the children off.
Speaker 1: This is Andy talking to me in September twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: that's eight months before the first episode in the Bromin podcast. Series.
Speaker 1: I think we've got a lot of ground to cover,
Speaker 1: but let's resume this.
Speaker 2: See the Blake Tarriday petrol receipt around in his's wallet
Speaker 2: for years and years, and all of a sudden could
Speaker 2: pull out this petrol receipt from a service station to
Speaker 2: say you got petrol.
Speaker 1: Here's Andy's wife, Michelle. When we talked in the Shire
Speaker 1: in late February twenty twenty.
Speaker 5: Four, he gets out his wallet and he's got like
Speaker 5: a little receipt that you get from the cashier, and
Speaker 5: to show me that he left at eleven o six
Speaker 5: pm from a service station, and then he put it
Speaker 5: back in his wallet. And I kind of thought to himself,
Speaker 5: why you show me that I don't care if you've
Speaker 5: got petrol, but.
Speaker 1: Doesn't really show what time he left, does it?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 6: Because he could have got fuel or he could have
Speaker 6: done anything.
Speaker 1: Madison Walsh and I puzzled over it in early February
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four when we met in a cafe in
Speaker 1: the Museum of Contemporary Art overlooking Sydney's circular Key.
Speaker 7: I can't imagine after changing the loots on the house
Speaker 7: that she would willingly leave him with the house and
Speaker 7: the kids and just sleeps.
Speaker 8: Also, why did John felt the need to keep for
Speaker 8: a seat from the petrol station for all those.
Speaker 2: Years, carrying around in his wallet.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's not normal behavior unless you feel like you
Speaker 7: have to have a defense in some way.
Speaker 1: And here's how the detective Graham Diskins summarized that in
Speaker 1: one of the internal police running sheets from early June
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. If it sounds familiar, that's because you
Speaker 1: heard this in episode five.
Speaker 9: Had a long conversation with John Winfield about missing person
Speaker 9: and reason for taking children to Sydney on Sunday night.
Speaker 9: Stated that they travel better at night and that his
Speaker 9: wife was aware that he would have them for eight
Speaker 9: to ten days in Sydney whilst she had a break.
Speaker 9: Produced a document where he purchased petrol in Ballina at
Speaker 9: six minutes past eleven on May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 9: This is consistent with next door neighbor hearing him leave
Speaker 9: the premises unable to assist with phone call being made
Speaker 9: from his premises at two thirteen am on the Monday morning.
Speaker 9: Indications are that the missing person has returned to the
Speaker 9: family home after he and the children had left and
Speaker 9: made the call whilst obtaining her property. He still states
Speaker 9: that after she made the call early in the evening,
Speaker 9: she walked out the front door about nine pm carrying
Speaker 9: no property. We still can't find her handbag or a
Speaker 9: small blue suitcase.
Speaker 1: Throughout this episode, you are going to hear a number
Speaker 1: of theories about why John seemed so attached to the
Speaker 1: petrol receipt and where Broman's remains might be. These theories
Speaker 1: are based on circumstantial evidence. While John vehemently denies wrongdoing
Speaker 1: or any involvement in Broman's disappearance, these theories give Bromwan's
Speaker 1: family hope that her remains may be found and that
Speaker 1: she can one day be properly laid to rest. Now
Speaker 1: here's Andy's theory about John's strange relationship with the seat
Speaker 1: for petrol.
Speaker 2: And I think it's because he knows he was seen
Speaker 2: after eleven ih six in Ballina by Judy, So therefore
Speaker 2: he's trying to prove that he was gone, he wasn't there,
Speaker 2: and anything Judy has to say as the relevant is.
Speaker 1: That, based in part on Jude Singh's disclosure that she
Speaker 1: had a lantern on and he looked up, she saw
Speaker 1: him look up at the balcony one.
Speaker 2: It all makes sense, now, why was everything based around
Speaker 2: that receipt? Why are you showing people that receipt? Debbie
Speaker 2: would be able to tell you the same story that
Speaker 2: he's showing her and Murray this petrol receipt that he
Speaker 2: was eleven o six.
Speaker 1: He also produced that receipt to the detective Graham Diskin
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three. It's mentioned in the rolling sheets.
Speaker 2: Well there you gon't, but then it's also mentioned in Taylor's,
Speaker 2: which are five and a half years later. It just
Speaker 2: struck us that, wow, there's the reason why so much
Speaker 2: emphasis is brought on that petrol receipt.
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle told me that Broman had complained she
Speaker 1: was so strapped for cash she could afford to put
Speaker 1: only small serves of fuel in the Ford Falcon sedan.
Speaker 1: The tank was never filled up.
Speaker 6: Particularly after she moved out and went to Byron Street.
Speaker 8: If he realized there was no petrol.
Speaker 6: And then.
Speaker 2: Things have happened at home.
Speaker 6: Allegedly, the first thing he's going to have to do
Speaker 6: is go get petrol, because you're not going to risk
Speaker 6: having the car break down run out of petrol. So
Speaker 6: he's gone and got petrol which is where Murray's seen
Speaker 6: in quietly leaving the house because he doesn't want anyone
Speaker 6: to know.
Speaker 10: That he's leaving.
Speaker 6: He goes down the hill and around, gets the petrol,
Speaker 6: and comes back and heads down Granite Street.
Speaker 4: Whatever time that is.
Speaker 2: June's recollection is that it's very late that night, just
Speaker 2: before midnight.
Speaker 6: And he's gone down Granite Street to do whatever he's
Speaker 6: got to do, realizes he's been seen, probably goes somewhere
Speaker 6: and I'm not going.
Speaker 8: To say anymore.
Speaker 6: It makes it stick thinking about it, and then shoots
Speaker 6: back and gets the girls, which then coincides with what
Speaker 6: Crystal always said to us, Oh I saw the clock.
Speaker 8: It was one o'clock. That timeline kind of fits.
Speaker 2: We're the shortest route you're looking for. A body of
Speaker 2: water is Lake Ainsworth. It's completely filled with cannon from
Speaker 2: the tree trees. It's a dark lake. By the time
Speaker 2: you got your arm in the water and you go
Speaker 2: to the length of your arm, the chances are you
Speaker 2: can't even see your hand. It was a lovely safe
Speaker 2: place to take the kids and swim without worrying about
Speaker 2: rips and things like that. But everyone was always mindful
Speaker 2: to keep an eye on the kids, because if they
Speaker 2: went off the sand bank into the deeper water, you
Speaker 2: got buckets of finding them they went under. It's a
Speaker 2: dark lake. Tanning in the water is unbelievable.
Speaker 11: The sound of the car backing out and scraping the
Speaker 11: bottom is perhaps he was already getting things organized to
Speaker 11: help weigh things down and we something was in the boot.
Speaker 2: And there's no way that there was enough time to
Speaker 2: dig somewhere to hide.
Speaker 6: Bromwin the street on the right hand side of the lake,
Speaker 6: and if you go up there you can nearly at
Speaker 6: some point back your car or park right beside the.
Speaker 8: Edge of the road and the water is right next
Speaker 8: to you.
Speaker 2: Back then there was a road in and out, but
Speaker 2: now it's actually a pedestrian path after the first few
Speaker 2: hundred motors.
Speaker 1: What's the function of the surfboard.
Speaker 2: To be able to take her out to the center
Speaker 2: of the lake where it's quite deep way down, drop
Speaker 2: her off the board, paddle back in, come on, pick
Speaker 2: up the girls by all out to Sydney.
Speaker 1: In your opinion, the ten forty pm trip that Murray witnesses,
Speaker 1: where the car bottoms out and then rolls down the hill,
Speaker 1: lights off, an engine off is the first trip, and
Speaker 1: that's to get fuel.
Speaker 2: I believe, so he would have known that the lights
Speaker 2: were still on in Murray's house.
Speaker 6: If you're going to leave children in the house because
Speaker 6: you've got to go and do something, you don't want
Speaker 6: them to wake up.
Speaker 2: You don't want them to hear you leaving. So he's
Speaker 2: stealth away, gets the petrol, comes back packs the car,
Speaker 2: match down the drive.
Speaker 4: Possible that the door didn't.
Speaker 2: Latch securely, and when he's backed out because of the
Speaker 2: angle of the hill, what Judy identifies as the money
Speaker 2: could have weighed or slightly bumped the door and that's
Speaker 2: turned the interior light on. So he's gone very very
Speaker 2: slowly down Granite Street. He wasn't banking on the poor
Speaker 2: lady that's worried about miscarrying and and all sorts of
Speaker 2: things drama's going on, couldn't sleep and was sitting on
Speaker 2: a veranda. She actually states that he glanced up. She
Speaker 2: knew exactly who it was, and she remembers the car.
Speaker 2: There's plenty of locals that will tell you that car
Speaker 2: at squeaky brakes. Judy has seen the car and there
Speaker 2: was no children in the backseat of that car with
Speaker 2: a surfboard and a mummy. Why is someone carrying at
Speaker 2: receipt around for so long to prove and they left
Speaker 2: town at eleven oh six That eleven.
Speaker 1: Oh six pm receipt only shows that he bought fuel
Speaker 1: at eleven oh six pm. It doesn't show what time
Speaker 1: he left anywhere.
Speaker 2: But it now brings relevance to the fact of why
Speaker 2: are you putting so much emphasis on it?
Speaker 4: I believe he knows that.
Speaker 1: He was seen. Mel Taylor, Marian Deb's daughter. She has
Speaker 1: a very vivid memory on Tuesday May eighteen of going
Speaker 1: into the house and seeing the children's bed stripped of
Speaker 1: their sheets. Correat, Well, we know that Broman had tucked
Speaker 1: the children in correct, How would Lauren and Crystal have
Speaker 1: coped with being woken up and had their bedstripped and
Speaker 1: dad goes missing.
Speaker 2: No, I don't believe that happened. I believe that they
Speaker 2: were put in the main bedroom. It's just my theory
Speaker 2: because Bristol when she was about eighteen or so and
Speaker 2: first came down to Sydney. She came and spend a
Speaker 2: little bit of time with us, and it's probably the
Speaker 2: first time that we had what I'd refer to as
Speaker 2: an adult conversation about the whole thing. She had this
Speaker 2: recollection that she saw one o'clock. She thought it was
Speaker 2: one o'clock when she got woken. Dad woke say we're
Speaker 2: going in the car. Ian Michelle vividly, totally, totally remember
Speaker 2: that conversation at our place that she thought it was
Speaker 2: one o'class.
Speaker 6: She went, no, no, it'sn't a lap and it was one,
Speaker 6: like she corrected us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And bearing in mind it's a theory and it's
Speaker 1: pure speculation. But you have in your mind John going
Speaker 1: into the children's bedrooms, waking each of them up, directing
Speaker 1: them to go in the mum and dad's room.
Speaker 2: How many times have you picked your kids up and
Speaker 2: relocated them asleep and they wouldn't even be aware of it. Yep,
Speaker 2: we've done it multiple times.
Speaker 1: Yes, of course, you come home your kids.
Speaker 4: Have fallen asleep in the car.
Speaker 2: Whether they're ten and five or eight and three, doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: You pick your kids up. They probably stir, they wake up,
Speaker 2: They cut off back into your shoulder, You carry them,
Speaker 2: and you put down into the bed. They wake up
Speaker 2: with them and they've got no idea how they got there.
Speaker 4: I believe that they were.
Speaker 2: Possibly moved into the bedroom, put in the main bed
Speaker 2: sheets obtained hence by Melt has that vivid memory, and
Speaker 2: they were used to discard Bromwin.
Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2: You could walk down the middle of Lenny's head on
Speaker 2: a Sunday night's dark naked mate no one and see you.
Speaker 2: No one was around. It was very quiet on a
Speaker 2: Sunday night. It's not like the Cosmopolitan, the sort of
Speaker 2: place it is today. It's possibly some concrete blocks or
Speaker 2: something around. I don't recall john't ever really leaving the
Speaker 2: place that untidy, but he did. You have weights and
Speaker 2: a bench pressing everything in the garage, bar bells and
Speaker 2: things like that. Wap down around a body with a
Speaker 2: piece of rope and tie them on. You're going to
Speaker 2: drive straight down there, straight down the hill, straight through
Speaker 2: the main drag, go down to Lake Gainsworth. It's not
Speaker 2: lit up. I believe that everything would have been floated
Speaker 2: out on the surfboard. Swim out with your arm over
Speaker 2: the top of the board, using your legs and your
Speaker 2: other arm, swim all the way out out to the middle.
Speaker 4: Chip it.
Speaker 2: She's not gonna fight very well, jump back on, paddle
Speaker 2: back in. Job done, ten minutes flat. It's a terrible
Speaker 2: thing to be thinking of. It makes sense back aim
Speaker 2: makes sense to us now bugged us for so long
Speaker 2: Why he had to put so much emphasis on that
Speaker 2: petrol receipt.
Speaker 4: It's the time stamp he's after.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always bugged me. I couldn't fathom it, and
Speaker 1: you and I talked about it, and I asked Scruffy
Speaker 1: about it. I did wonder what was the motive for
Speaker 1: him to be showing people that were seen to prove
Speaker 1: that he didn't have time to take her body and
Speaker 1: bury her anywhere between A and B. The way he
Speaker 1: saw it was John wanted to prove that he didn't
Speaker 1: have time for foul play.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, scrappies on the money, isn't he.
Speaker 1: I've just missed a call from Mardie. She's been doing
Speaker 1: a bit of research too. I'll catch up with her
Speaker 1: and maybe we'll talk tomorrow. Hey, Okay, goes By, you've
Speaker 1: been doing some homework.
Speaker 8: I have been doing some work.
Speaker 1: Since meeting Mattie Walsh in September twenty twenty three in Sydney.
Speaker 1: I have asked her to do many tasks for this
Speaker 1: podcast series about the disappearance of her second cousin, Bromwin.
Speaker 1: Maddie has done research into laws that were in existence
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three to protect women from domestic violence,
Speaker 1: and Maddie's done timelines around key events in the case.
Speaker 1: She's discovered anomalies in the evidence. She has read and
Speaker 1: summarized hundreds of pages of transcript from the five days
Speaker 1: of public hearings of the inquest from two thousand and two,
Speaker 1: and that's for a later episode. We will reconstruct the
Speaker 1: evidence of key witnesses who were part of that inquest,
Speaker 1: overseen by the then Deputy State Coroner Karl Milavanovitch. Although
Speaker 1: Mattie was not born until two thousand and three, a
Speaker 1: decade after Bromwin vanished in Lennox Head, Maddie has met
Speaker 1: several of the key witnesses in this place. People liked
Speaker 1: the retired detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor and Bromwin's neighbors Debbie
Speaker 1: Hall and Murray Nolan. Surfer's incredible. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: guys out and girls.
Speaker 8: What do you think of I love it here. I've
Speaker 8: been here a lot before. What's gorgeous.
Speaker 1: We drove the coast road and envied the lucky surfers
Speaker 1: who were out riding endlessly peeling perfect waves.
Speaker 7: In my teenage years, we used to go on drives
Speaker 7: and things around here.
Speaker 1: Did you associate it with Bromin when you visited here?
Speaker 7: I you should appeared in Lennox Heath, But I did
Speaker 7: not know that they actually lived here. I was not
Speaker 7: aware of that because I had always known Crystal to
Speaker 7: live in Sydney. It took me a while to realize
Speaker 7: that that wasn't a normal thing with other families.
Speaker 8: Don't just casually have family members that I've been murdered allegedly,
Speaker 8: Let's not forget the allegedly.
Speaker 1: On one of my visits to Lennox, I drove Maddie
Speaker 1: where deb Hall had taken me, right past John's house,
Speaker 1: not the one he used to live in in Sandstone Crescent.
Speaker 8: So did he build this next house or did he
Speaker 8: just buy it?
Speaker 11: Do you know.
Speaker 1: He built it?
Speaker 4: Interesting?
Speaker 8: It does look like a fortress. I feel like a
Speaker 8: private investigator.
Speaker 1: Maddie knew from me about a woman called Judy Singh
Speaker 1: long before I disclosed it to anyone else. Maddie's good
Speaker 1: at keeping secrets. She's been a vault at twenty one,
Speaker 1: Maddie hasn't yet joined the workforce. She's doing all of
Speaker 1: this work for the podcast on a voluntary basis. Perhaps
Speaker 1: that's why we call the tasks that she does her homework.
Speaker 1: Since Judy Singh's revelations were aired in episode seven with
Speaker 1: graphics and video reconstructions on the website of The Australian
Speaker 1: and the Bronwyn podcast dot com site, Maddie has been busy.
Speaker 1: What have you found?
Speaker 7: I was researching into how fabric decomposes in freshwater and
Speaker 7: also saltwater, and I found that polyester does not decompose
Speaker 7: because it's mainly made out of plastics. And then I
Speaker 7: searched up what surfboard covers are made out of because
Speaker 7: that's the going theory that he put her in a
Speaker 7: surfbook cover, and surfboard bags are most commonly made out
Speaker 7: of polyester, which means that there's entirely a possibility that
Speaker 7: she is still in a surfbook cover at the bottom
Speaker 7: of a body of water. But I found more things. Okay,
Speaker 7: I was looking at how much weight you would need
Speaker 7: for a body to be submerged in water and not
Speaker 7: float back up, and for a fit person like Bromwyn,
Speaker 7: who was very tall and lean, so a fit person
Speaker 7: they displace one hundred five percent of their body weight
Speaker 7: in water. Eight to ten percent of their weight is
Speaker 7: needed in order to submerge them. For instance, if you
Speaker 7: fill a surfboard bag with what could be loose concrete,
Speaker 7: which is the easiest to source the cheapest, you only
Speaker 7: need ten percent of per body weight, which I don't
Speaker 7: really know maths, but what is that maybe, which is
Speaker 7: not a lot. It's not as much as you think.
Speaker 7: The bigger you are and the more fat you hold,
Speaker 7: the easier it is for you to float to the top.
Speaker 7: The thinner you are, you're likely, just based on how
Speaker 7: you're built, not likely to float up to the top.
Speaker 7: There's also a running theory that it could be Lake Ainsworth. Now,
Speaker 7: the thing about this lake is it's a freshwater tea
Speaker 7: tree lake with a dark color to it. This is
Speaker 7: because of certain trees which have permanently colored the water brown.
Speaker 7: People love to go swithing there and all the rest
Speaker 7: of it, which is a little bit morbid now that
Speaker 7: I think about it. Basically, one girl said that she
Speaker 7: loves being there when she was little, but as she
Speaker 7: got further out, the deep the water got, the darker
Speaker 7: it got and when she would dive down, she wouldn't
Speaker 7: be able to see anything.
Speaker 8: She compared it to a dark abyss.
Speaker 7: So if you were to be up above looking down,
Speaker 7: you couldn't see anything in there. It's a dark body
Speaker 7: of water, even when you're going under the water.
Speaker 1: I try to picture a man pulling a surfboard with
Speaker 1: Bromin's body in a surfboard bag on top of that board,
Speaker 1: and then toppling over the side, sinking to these really dark,
Speaker 1: murky depths. But you're saying that because the surfboard bag
Speaker 1: is almost certainly made out of polyester, it's probably intact.
Speaker 7: Yes, that is what I'm saying. Everything inside probably has decomposed.
Speaker 7: The body will just naturally release gases and bacteria that
Speaker 7: will eat away at the body over time. But the
Speaker 7: body will still be together because of this surfboard bag. Now,
Speaker 7: if it was just in a sheet, and he just
Speaker 7: disposed of the body in the sheet that Jude saw
Speaker 7: a body wrapped in, then it would be a different
Speaker 7: story because that sheet would decompose quite quickly due to
Speaker 7: its videgradable nature, and due to currents, debris, or the
Speaker 7: rest of it. It caused the body to depart especially limbs.
Speaker 1: I remember mel telling us when we met her in
Speaker 1: that public library that John used to intimidate her because
Speaker 1: she'd see him in the garage. I think it was
Speaker 1: this because of the strength of him. It's just my
Speaker 1: memory of the person he was seeing him working out
Speaker 1: with his Brench press and yeah, that wasn't the garage.
Speaker 1: So if he's got heavy weights which would allow you
Speaker 1: to say, thread rope or a chain through those, so
Speaker 1: then wrap around a surfboard bag, or alternatively, because they're
Speaker 1: quite flat, you could slide those into a surfboard bag
Speaker 1: which is already enclosing a body. You raise concrete as
Speaker 1: a possibility, and that could be right, but so much
Speaker 1: easier if you've got flat and really heavy actual ways, if.
Speaker 7: It is ways, there's a chance those weights are still intact.
Speaker 1: And you confirm that the material for surfboard bags in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three was polyester.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's made out of plastic.
Speaker 7: It's slightly waterproof, it's light, it's durable.
Speaker 8: It makes a lot of sense that it wouldn't break down.
Speaker 7: It'd be much easier to transfer a body in a
Speaker 7: polyester bag because it'd be more sturdy. I found an
Speaker 7: article on the people that recover bodies for free. They
Speaker 7: have found so many bodies, like over one hundred bodies.
Speaker 12: Authorities credit Gene and Cindy Rouston of CUNA with helping
Speaker 12: them find the body of a missing man, but they've
Speaker 12: been helping families and law enforcement agencies for over two
Speaker 12: decades now. The couple started back in nineteen ninety nine
Speaker 12: and since then they say they've assisted in at least
Speaker 12: one hundred and seventeen body recoveries. It's a lot of
Speaker 12: bodies if you ask me, and they're really nice people.
Speaker 12: Geene Ralston says what him and his wife do gives
Speaker 12: them a good feeling.
Speaker 13: You don't really know what it means to have someone
Speaker 13: lost in the water, and they'll be able to find them.
Speaker 13: Side scan sonar uses sound to create images of things,
Speaker 13: much like medical ultrasound in that it doesn't require light,
Speaker 13: but you can think of sound as light. That it
Speaker 13: transmits a beam of sound and then it reflects off
Speaker 13: the bottom and images objects on the bottom. Anything on
Speaker 13: the bottom will typically have a distinct shadow behind it.
Speaker 7: And they found a man who had been missing for
Speaker 7: twenty nine years using SONA and the oldest body they
Speaker 7: recovered was someone who had been lying at the bottom
Speaker 7: of a lake for as long as one hundred years.
Speaker 7: Oh my gosh, through SONA and they found bodies that
Speaker 7: have been bound with jim waite and they have been
Speaker 7: found using cable ties.
Speaker 8: They linked the cable ties back to the.
Speaker 7: Person who murdered this person because they found that at
Speaker 7: their house. So they also said murder victims look different
Speaker 7: under sonar because they're usually tied up and weighed down.
Speaker 8: So this is actually very common occurrence.
Speaker 1: You like Lake Ainsworth as a possibility, it's too risky.
Speaker 8: In the ocean, yeah, it's too risky. He wouldn't have
Speaker 8: done that.
Speaker 7: And also, imagine trying to get through the waves in
Speaker 7: the middle of the night in a lake of water.
Speaker 7: You know that not much is going to change except
Speaker 7: for maybe a bit of winds and a bit of current.
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle are of the same view that Lay
Speaker 1: Ainsworth is the target zone.
Speaker 7: If she was in a sand dune, the wind would
Speaker 7: have recovered her. He didn't have enough time to bury
Speaker 7: her six feet under. And also digging a hole in
Speaker 7: sand is very difficult, especially at night. It would be
Speaker 7: so much easier to drop her in the middle.
Speaker 1: Of a lake that Maddie at the start of this podcast,
Speaker 1: In fact, months before the first episode was released, I
Speaker 1: remember talking to you at Megan's house.
Speaker 10: You were really.
Speaker 1: Determined to keep an open mind and not have too
Speaker 1: many preconceptions about things. Is it the way of evidence
Speaker 1: now that has caused you to now look at John
Speaker 1: as her probable killer or is there something else going on?
Speaker 8: Well, it's definitely based on the evidence.
Speaker 7: I mean when I first started this, I didn't really
Speaker 7: know any of the evidence. But once you take into
Speaker 7: perspective every single fact and everyone's recollections, and now with
Speaker 7: Jew's recollection, the possibility or the hypothesis that something else
Speaker 7: happened is really so impossible. There's really no other explanation.
Speaker 7: So he knows the lake well, and the lake is.
Speaker 8: Better than the ocean. He's very familiar with water.
Speaker 7: He had a surfboard in the cup, used the surfboard
Speaker 7: as a floatation device of sorts.
Speaker 8: Now that I've looked more into the lake, it seems
Speaker 8: to all line up.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 7: He knew the water. He was a water person. He's
Speaker 7: in the water every day. He knew the lake, he
Speaker 7: knew the color of the lake, he knew that it
Speaker 7: was dark due to the terrain surrounding it, so the
Speaker 7: chances of her being seen from bird's eye view impossible.
Speaker 7: If the lake has never been searched before, it just
Speaker 7: shows you how untouched it is really, and the police
Speaker 7: aren't doing anything, so might just have to be us.
Speaker 7: I don't have a sonar thingy, we won't be able
Speaker 7: to see anything Scooba diving wise. I'll actually look around
Speaker 7: and see who owns one up there. I'm sure someone does.
Speaker 7: We can do it. It's entirely possible.
Speaker 1: Mary's often to help.
Speaker 8: Oh amazing.
Speaker 1: He has in his mind the area where he believes
Speaker 1: if she's there, she would be.
Speaker 7: Well, that's exactly who we need then, because it's a
Speaker 7: big lake and you have to go so slow and
Speaker 7: whatever boat you're on, because you have to do a
Speaker 7: grid search. And there's also a chance there's a lot
Speaker 7: of debris because there's a lot of trees, the tea
Speaker 7: tree leaves. He'll be in layers, probably close to the
Speaker 7: shore where the trees are, and then probably be less
Speaker 7: and less as we get deeper. But you know what
Speaker 7: else exists. It's like mini submarines. But it's going to
Speaker 7: be hard to see that swimny thing. You can't see
Speaker 7: anything in the lake.
Speaker 1: Steal weights, dumb bells or whatever. They may show up
Speaker 1: with metal detection equipment.
Speaker 7: True, a lot of people on the internet have like
Speaker 7: discussed this, and it's kind of creepy, just like weighing
Speaker 7: bodies down. So when I said concrete, I'm in concrete
Speaker 7: in the bag. Concrete is heavy already on its own.
Speaker 7: Water into that that's really heavy. If it was like
Speaker 7: a six foot bag with the dumb bells, you could
Speaker 7: cable tie the dumb bells to like the handles and
Speaker 7: all the rest of it.
Speaker 1: The thing that surprises me, Mattie, is the relatively small
Speaker 1: amount of weight that would submerge a lean body.
Speaker 7: But then it's backed up by scuba divers.
Speaker 8: Obviously, if you.
Speaker 7: Want to scuba dive, you have to wear weights so
Speaker 7: you can actually go under.
Speaker 8: Because we have this thing called it like a mutual
Speaker 8: boyt and sy.
Speaker 7: Because our lungs fill with air. When they fill with air,
Speaker 7: we float. No matter whether you're dead or alive. You
Speaker 7: need weight to get you down, to actually get you
Speaker 7: deep into the water. So freshwater you're likely to sink
Speaker 7: easier because saltwater makes you more buoyant, and then obviously
Speaker 7: the depth of the water. If you are really deep,
Speaker 7: it's going to be harder for you to float back
Speaker 7: up just based on the pressure of the water.
Speaker 1: Was it a bit disconcerting doing all this research?
Speaker 8: This is my favorite thing to do. I was a student.
Speaker 7: Now I'm a graduate, so technically a forensic scientist, and
Speaker 7: this is the type of research.
Speaker 8: That I love.
Speaker 1: Scruffy texted me today, Oh gosh, what did he say?
Speaker 1: Lake Ainsworth?
Speaker 8: Really?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Mary Nolan is also of that view.
Speaker 7: I think we need to get a a sona, a
Speaker 7: side scan sona because they have found so many people.
Speaker 7: I will happily die if we find something.
Speaker 1: You won't be able to see anything.
Speaker 8: Well, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 7: It's like braille. You just feel around. That's what someone
Speaker 7: described it as. You have to touch, you can't see.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to check in Andy, because those text
Speaker 1: messages could be important. Could you please just tell me
Speaker 1: the background to those? I was contacted by a friend.
Speaker 1: This case is filled with what ifs. There are several
Speaker 1: compelling theories about where Bromwin's body might be. Lake Ainsworth,
Speaker 1: for example, has sounded plausible since Judy Singh came forward
Speaker 1: and described having seen a surfboard in the Ford Falcon
Speaker 1: late at night, besides something that looked like a body
Speaker 1: wrapped in sheets. But until Judy revealed those remarkable things
Speaker 1: in episode seven, Blake Ainsworth had scarcely been mentioned to
Speaker 1: me by anyone. Madison, Walsh, Andy Reid, Michelle and I
Speaker 1: were suspicious instead about a building site in the Southerland
Speaker 1: Shire south of Sydney, the shire where John Winfield grew
Speaker 1: up and where he lived with and then divorced his
Speaker 1: first two wives before meeting Bromman and moving with her
Speaker 1: to Lennox Head. The truth is, we don't know where
Speaker 1: broman is, but there are good reasons to keep an
Speaker 1: open mind and to remain suspicious of that building site
Speaker 1: in the shire. You'll recall that John Winfield left Sydney
Speaker 1: suddenly on the late afternoon of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three to fly to Ballina, and then he went
Speaker 1: to his home in Sandstone Crescent because Bromin had moved
Speaker 1: back in there with her two daughters. John had been
Speaker 1: in Sydney for several weeks because he was helping the
Speaker 1: builder Glenn Webster, construct a house for Glenn In a
Speaker 1: place called Illawong in the Shire. Andy's friend, we'll just
Speaker 1: call him Mike, was familiar with it because right next
Speaker 1: to Glenn Webster's house block was another block of land.
Speaker 1: A new house would in time be built there too,
Speaker 1: by the respected builder Glenn Webster. This other house was
Speaker 1: for Mike's brother. Andy has shown me a photograph and
Speaker 1: it's dated July nineteen ninety three. It shows that construction
Speaker 1: has not begun on Mike's brother's house, but the house
Speaker 1: next to it was underway. The brick walls were up.
Speaker 1: Andy is a qualified builder who works on house builds
Speaker 1: every day. The photograph from July nineteen ninety three of
Speaker 1: the building site at which John was working shows an
Speaker 1: early stage of construction. Now we know John denies wrongdoing,
Speaker 1: and there is no suggestion whatsoever of any wrongdoing by
Speaker 1: Glenn Webster, a highly regarded builder noted for his professionalism.
Speaker 2: I believe over the years that John has done a
Speaker 2: fair bit of work for Glenn Webster.
Speaker 1: Do you know the area?
Speaker 4: I know the area, yes, correct.
Speaker 1: We know that John was working there in ninety three.
Speaker 1: What was it like? Was it densely populated.
Speaker 4: Thirty years ago?
Speaker 2: It wouldn't have been No, Illawong was a suburb that
Speaker 2: might have had sporadic housing around it.
Speaker 1: How far away is it from your house now?
Speaker 4: Twenty minute run.
Speaker 1: When I read your text message and saw the reference
Speaker 1: to the volume of excavation and concrete and so on,
Speaker 1: and just in the context of what the coroner believes
Speaker 1: has happened and what the police believe happened, it just
Speaker 1: made a whole lot of sense. What was he doing
Speaker 1: after he dropped the girls at his ex wife's place.
Speaker 2: Jane was looking after him. Correct, It's amazing what you
Speaker 2: followed out.
Speaker 1: Have you previously considered, just as a theory, the idea
Speaker 1: that Romin's remains may have been concreted or breakeed in
Speaker 1: at that property in Illawong where John was working.
Speaker 2: There's been plenty of theory like and we tossed up
Speaker 2: the idea that possibly he could have driven all the
Speaker 2: way down here.
Speaker 4: We prombined in the boot of that car.
Speaker 2: It makes some sort of sense for the fact that
Speaker 2: he brought no luggage, no suitcases, no clothes, nothing for
Speaker 2: the girls to wear.
Speaker 1: But when he arrived at your house and Michelle saw him,
Speaker 1: he opened the boot, didn't he?
Speaker 2: Once I got home, I asked him, and we went
Speaker 2: up to the back at the car and he opened
Speaker 2: the boot. That's where he got out the two small
Speaker 2: pillow cases that had you know, like three or four
Speaker 2: items of clothing chucked in each pillow case, but nothing
Speaker 2: was adequate for Sydney weather. That just struck me how
Speaker 2: clean the boot was and there was only the metal lighting.
Speaker 2: I could see the spare.
Speaker 4: Tire by lightning.
Speaker 1: You mean no upholstery, do carpet, none of the usual stuff.
Speaker 2: Well in the old days, old cars like that, they
Speaker 2: just had like an old vinyl type lighting.
Speaker 7: Do you remember questioning why he didn't bring any stuff,
Speaker 7: why they had no clothes?
Speaker 6: I said, why has everything shoved into a pillowcase? Like what?
Speaker 10: And I had a quick look inside and I said, like,
Speaker 10: there's not.
Speaker 8: That much in here. That was There was a couple of.
Speaker 6: T shirts and singlets and bits and pieces, but there
Speaker 6: was nothing substantial in it.
Speaker 10: And I said, John, why didn't you Why didn't you
Speaker 10: pack properly, Like where's the kids clothes?
Speaker 8: And he said, oh, no, you know, the kids.
Speaker 6: I had to drive in the nighttime because it's better
Speaker 6: for them if I drive at night.
Speaker 8: So I just quickly got stuff together and took off.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was his excuse.
Speaker 1: The building site in the shire where John was working
Speaker 1: as a place where perhaps if John killed bromwinin she
Speaker 1: may have been disposed of. How do you rate that
Speaker 1: theory amongst all the others you've heard, when you consider
Speaker 1: the different circumstances.
Speaker 10: Having seen the boot and knowing that really there wasn't
Speaker 10: that much in there, that thought crossed our minds, and
Speaker 10: then we thought, oh my god, please don't tell me
Speaker 10: he's traveled all the way to Sydney with that poor
Speaker 10: lady in the back like that really bothered us. And
Speaker 10: then of course the fact that he went to a stranger,
Speaker 10: you know, he was prepared to ask somebody else to
Speaker 10: mind the kids, and he even asked them for clothes.
Speaker 8: It's kind of like crazy.
Speaker 11: And the fact that he wanted them to stay there
Speaker 11: for a couple of weeks, like.
Speaker 10: He wasn't even entertaining coming to us, as they had said.
Speaker 7: Yes, it is telling though the fact that he did
Speaker 7: go to is first wife's place and trusted her mother
Speaker 7: in law who he had never met, who she had
Speaker 7: never met him to look after the kids instead of
Speaker 7: going to family. That was what so close ten minutes away.
Speaker 7: He didn't want people to start questioning Bromwin's disappearance so
Speaker 7: early on, because no one knew until he rocked up
Speaker 7: at your place.
Speaker 1: For this theory to have force, any plan to conceal
Speaker 1: Broman's body somewhere in Lennox Head, such as Lake Ainsworth
Speaker 1: late on the Sunday night had to have been abandoned
Speaker 1: in favor of a sudden drive south to Sydney. Would
Speaker 1: a fear that a neighbor, Judy Singh, sitting near a
Speaker 1: lantern on her balcony in Granite Street, had seen John
Speaker 1: with what appeared to be a body in the back
Speaker 1: seat of the Ford falcon have brought about an abrupt
Speaker 1: change of planned That's the question Andy and Michelle ask
Speaker 1: themselves now, particularly in light of their confidence about why
Speaker 1: John has gripped onto his petrol receipt since that fateful
Speaker 1: Sunday night thirty one years ago. He's driven through the night.
Speaker 1: He's got to be really tired because he had traveled
Speaker 1: up from Sydney on the Sunday, arrives Sunday evening, goes
Speaker 1: to the house, leaves the house, and he drives through
Speaker 1: the night. Then he turns up at the hair salon
Speaker 1: to see Jodie. Then he goes to his ex wife's
Speaker 1: house where he speaks to the mother in law and
Speaker 1: when he talks to her, he doesn't want to put
Speaker 1: his head down for a sleep. He says, can you
Speaker 1: please look after my children. I've got some important work
Speaker 1: to do. I've got a big job to do. That's
Speaker 1: what she says in her statement. And was he actually
Speaker 1: intending when he flew to Balloner on the Sunday night
Speaker 1: to be back in Sydney the next day for work.
Speaker 10: Well, from everything that I've read from mister Webster's statement,
Speaker 10: he didn't even tell him.
Speaker 8: He was going.
Speaker 4: He just left. He just left. Shit.
Speaker 8: He told me in the.
Speaker 6: Afternoon when he rocked up and knocked on the door,
Speaker 6: and I walked down and I got the shock of
Speaker 6: my life to see them there.
Speaker 8: He eventually told me that he had to get the
Speaker 8: car registered.
Speaker 4: That's what he'd been doing. So that was what he
Speaker 4: told me he'd been doing.
Speaker 1: And he you're a builder, yep, this is a really
Speaker 1: difficult question for you to consider. Is the construction of
Speaker 1: a house when it's at an early stage a place
Speaker 1: where you could conceal a body without much trouble.
Speaker 2: Without a doubt, quite as you do something underneath any
Speaker 2: part of the slab. There was a lot of excavation
Speaker 2: that was at that stage of coming short of what
Speaker 2: we call out of the ground. You would hide it
Speaker 2: underneath in the preparation or in the soil or the sand.
Speaker 2: You got footings all the way around the edge. It's
Speaker 2: seriously not a hard issue to possibly hide someone like that.
Speaker 1: And he told me that his friend had been concerned
Speaker 1: for years about the illulung possibility.
Speaker 2: Well, I had a phone conversation, not only the text messages,
Speaker 2: and he actually confided in me. Couldn't give me the
Speaker 2: exact date, but he actually called this information through to
Speaker 2: christ Stoppers.
Speaker 4: Never heard another thing.
Speaker 2: He rang it through from that day forth, you never
Speaker 2: heard anything. I know that they also checked a house
Speaker 2: up that way that John had burned linked to building,
Speaker 2: and they evidly scanned a slab. The slab was very
Speaker 2: thick for the SyES of the room it was, but
Speaker 2: they found nothing.
Speaker 1: I've talked to Scruffy, you know, Ian Lewis about that yelp.
Speaker 1: He had suspicions about that. In the previous episode, you
Speaker 1: heard Scruffy's reference to the thickness of the concrete in
Speaker 1: a house that John had been working on in the
Speaker 1: Lenox area. But it is very hard to fit this
Speaker 1: theory given the limited amount of time that was available
Speaker 1: to John. However, the other house construction site in the
Speaker 1: Shire south of Sydney was in a suburb called Illawong
Speaker 1: that at the time was relatively isolated and surrounded by bushland,
Speaker 1: and as John was already working there, his presence would
Speaker 1: not have aroused suspicion. It would be broad daylight. That's
Speaker 1: what we're surmising, that it's on the Monday in broad daylight.
Speaker 1: We don't really know whether there would have been a
Speaker 1: big crew, whether John would have been one of three
Speaker 1: or four brickies.
Speaker 2: I always knew John to work one out. He wasn't
Speaker 2: part of a team. I'd never seen John on a
Speaker 2: job where he allowed someone else to be laying bricks
Speaker 2: on a job that he was going to put his
Speaker 2: name to. He had a good reputation of being a
Speaker 2: very tidy, very good brick layer.
Speaker 1: So you saying that at that stage of the construction
Speaker 1: of a house, there's probably only John working there.
Speaker 4: John and whoever was laboring.
Speaker 8: So is there a chance that John could have been
Speaker 8: there by himself?
Speaker 2: Could have if he disappeared and went out there on
Speaker 2: that day.
Speaker 4: He could have easily been there on his own.
Speaker 8: Illowom is still and was quite bushy.
Speaker 6: It's in National Park kind of surrounds, isn't it.
Speaker 1: And is it Mike's theory or concern or suspicion, however
Speaker 1: you want to call it? That in the foundation, that's
Speaker 1: where Bromwin might be. Yes, have you ever driven past
Speaker 1: the house Andy, the house that John was working on
Speaker 1: over the years, just because you might have been suspicious?
Speaker 2: I have never known till this date the exact street.
Speaker 2: All I knew was that John was working on a
Speaker 2: house at Illowong. I've never known what actual house it was.
Speaker 2: That Webster's statement says that John was helping him build
Speaker 2: a house at illawan.
Speaker 1: I'm just going back to Glenn's statement now.
Speaker 2: And I was looking home still to this date, looks
Speaker 2: looks lovely and it's all brick, all brick.
Speaker 1: Until today, did you rate this idea of being a
Speaker 1: possible resting place for Bromwin as a low probability or
Speaker 1: was it up there?
Speaker 2: It was discussed but at that stay. They were thinking, Wow,
Speaker 2: how much front must she have to drive with apart
Speaker 2: two kids in a car with the body in the
Speaker 2: boot all the way to Sydney and the car wasn't
Speaker 2: even registered.
Speaker 4: What if he got caught or pulled over?
Speaker 2: Because back in those days, remember it's not like now,
Speaker 2: your color of your reggie stick or I genified whether
Speaker 2: the car was out of date or not.
Speaker 4: Then that's how they knew, and they pulled over.
Speaker 1: And how would you describe Mike in terms of his balance?
Speaker 2: And it's an outstanding fella, intelligent fella. And there wasn't
Speaker 2: a single person that gave any credence whatsoever that bron
Speaker 2: would would ever separate from those girls.
Speaker 4: Not one person.
Speaker 2: There's only one person on the planet that thinks she
Speaker 2: was going to walk away from.
Speaker 1: Maddie and I talked about this possibility after finishing our
Speaker 1: call with Andy and Michelle.
Speaker 7: As a builder, your life is on the job site.
Speaker 7: Where is there a big hole? And where is there
Speaker 7: a lot of dirt? And where is soon going to
Speaker 7: be concreted? And where is somewhere no one else will
Speaker 7: frequent except for really me and whoever is working on
Speaker 7: the site. I want to know who else was working
Speaker 7: on the site at that time.
Speaker 14: If it's true that it was just him and Glenn
Speaker 14: Webster working on that side, then it's quite possible that
Speaker 14: nobody was at the site on the Monday and John's
Speaker 14: able to turn up and he's got the side to himself.
Speaker 7: There's not a chance he would try and bury a
Speaker 7: body or dispose of a body if there are other
Speaker 7: people also working there or in the vicinity. We've been
Speaker 7: told that it was a relatively quiet area thirty or
Speaker 7: so years ago. There must have been somewhere he could
Speaker 7: drive his car up and an off time to know that,
Speaker 7: Oh Glenn isn't available today, he's not coming to the site,
Speaker 7: or I told Glenn I didn't need his help today.
Speaker 4: I was just going to be.
Speaker 7: There for a few hours, or even Glenn might have
Speaker 7: had an appointment of sorts couldn't get to the site.
Speaker 7: John didn't work in the team. He just works solely.
Speaker 7: To be fair, it's quite smart.
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot Au.
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and we see
Speaker 1: a range of photographs and other artwork at the website
Speaker 1: Bromwyn Podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here
Speaker 1: episodes first. The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes
Speaker 1: Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiert, Joshua Burton, Bridget Bryan Bianca, far Marcus,
Speaker 1: Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray.
Speaker 1: Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio
Speaker 1: and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been
Speaker 1: assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We
Speaker 1: can only do this kind of journalism with the support
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Speaker 1: For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and
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