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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. After several

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Speaker 1: days of replaying and considering everything that Judy Singh had

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Speaker 1: described in episode seven, and he sounded like a man

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Speaker 1: ready to make a citizens arrest over his sister's disappearance.

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Speaker 1: There was anger below the surface. He was apprehensive about

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Speaker 1: what would happen next with police. He was impatient for action,

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Speaker 1: but he was also relieved about something. Andy has suspected

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Speaker 1: John infoul play since a couple of months after Bromwin vanished.

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Speaker 1: But Andy is confident now that a puzzling thing which

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Speaker 1: had been nagging him for thirty one years has been answered.

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in hearing your idea about this eleven oh

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Speaker 1: six pm receipt for fuel that was purchased on the

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Speaker 1: Sunday night, May sixteen, nineteen ninety three. Yep, You've been

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Speaker 1: giving that a bit of thought since Judy Singh came

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Speaker 1: forward in the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Why did he have to prove to Michelle and produce

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Speaker 2: a receipt for petrol and then again when I got home?

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Speaker 2: Maybe whatever it was half an hour or say, forty

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Speaker 2: minutes later, and then he gets the receipt out and

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Speaker 2: wants to show it to me, and then we all

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Speaker 2: I through to ninety eight and Glen Taylor, and one

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Speaker 2: of the first things that he wants to do with

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Speaker 2: Glen Taylor is showing a receipt for petrol and in

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Speaker 2: Ballina for eleven oh six.

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Speaker 1: Evidence and the vivid recollections from people about John's reliance

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Speaker 1: on the petrol receipt way back in May nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: three and over subsequent years has featured in a number

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Speaker 1: of the recorded interviews I've done over the past several years.

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Speaker 1: Clearly it's been on our minds well before we heard

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Speaker 1: Judy Singh's revelations. Here's the retired detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor

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Speaker 1: talking to me in March twenty twenty one when I

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Speaker 1: went to his house in Ballina during that interview that

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Speaker 1: you did with Jonathan Winfield, can you describe the circumstances

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Speaker 1: surrounding him retrieving a receipt.

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Speaker 3: I said, look, we want to go over again your

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Speaker 3: movements on that night, and then he said, well look.

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Speaker 1: I sat there for a while thinking what to do.

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Speaker 3: I had worked to finish off down there, and then

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Speaker 3: he said, well, look, I've actually even got a receipt.

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Speaker 3: I can show you I've purchased fuel for the car,

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Speaker 3: and he took his wallet out. For years later, he

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Speaker 3: still had this receipt in his wallet showing that he

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Speaker 3: purchased fuel at eleven a six pm.

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Speaker 1: That night in Ballina.

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Speaker 4: He felt the need to retain.

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Speaker 3: That receipt all those years and still had it in

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Speaker 3: his wallet. These were things that he believed that were

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Speaker 3: prime things in his defense.

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Speaker 1: And what was the significance in your mind in that

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Speaker 1: interview of him pulling out that piece of paper, the receipt, Well,

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Speaker 1: look here I am.

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Speaker 3: I'm definitely in Balaner at eleven a six pm that

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Speaker 3: night getting fuel.

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Speaker 1: How does that help him?

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but he seemed to think it was

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Speaker 3: a fund significance that night to say I've given down servitation.

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Speaker 3: I made a decision to go to Sydney. I needed

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Speaker 3: to get fuel and this is where I filled up

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Speaker 3: just before I started driving to Sydney.

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Speaker 1: He's not attempted to disguise the fact that he was

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Speaker 1: at the house and that he was talking to his

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Speaker 1: wife in the evening at the house. So it's a

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Speaker 1: bit of a puzzle as to why that has been

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Speaker 1: so important for him.

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Speaker 3: It is a puzzle and it still remains a puzzle.

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Speaker 1: Is there something that is missing in terms of understanding

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Speaker 1: his latching onto that receipt as something significant? There's something

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Speaker 1: that everyone's miss well.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why he wanted to show this, not

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Speaker 3: only to the police but also to Roman's family members

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Speaker 3: that here I am in Bow and look I've got

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Speaker 3: this receipt.

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Speaker 4: It's still puzzling.

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Speaker 1: And were you able to verify the authenticity of the receipt.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing to suggest that the receipt was a forgery.

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Speaker 3: In so it didn't appear that he did get fuel

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Speaker 3: at eleven o six pm. But it's obviously going to

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Speaker 3: take a number of hours to get to Sydney, and

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Speaker 3: we've got evidence he had arrived down in Sydney to

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Speaker 3: his ex wash home the next morning with the children,

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Speaker 3: but we've got no other evidence to suggest where he

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Speaker 3: may have gone during the course that night or after

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Speaker 3: we dropped the children off.

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Speaker 1: This is Andy talking to me in September twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: that's eight months before the first episode in the Bromin podcast. Series.

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Speaker 1: I think we've got a lot of ground to cover,

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Speaker 1: but let's resume this.

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Speaker 2: See the Blake Tarriday petrol receipt around in his's wallet

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Speaker 2: for years and years, and all of a sudden could

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Speaker 2: pull out this petrol receipt from a service station to

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Speaker 2: say you got petrol.

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Speaker 1: Here's Andy's wife, Michelle. When we talked in the Shire

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Speaker 1: in late February twenty twenty.

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Speaker 5: Four, he gets out his wallet and he's got like

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Speaker 5: a little receipt that you get from the cashier, and

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Speaker 5: to show me that he left at eleven o six

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Speaker 5: pm from a service station, and then he put it

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Speaker 5: back in his wallet. And I kind of thought to himself,

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Speaker 5: why you show me that I don't care if you've

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Speaker 5: got petrol, but.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't really show what time he left, does it?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 6: Because he could have got fuel or he could have

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Speaker 6: done anything.

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Speaker 1: Madison Walsh and I puzzled over it in early February

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four when we met in a cafe in

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Speaker 1: the Museum of Contemporary Art overlooking Sydney's circular Key.

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Speaker 7: I can't imagine after changing the loots on the house

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Speaker 7: that she would willingly leave him with the house and

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Speaker 7: the kids and just sleeps.

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Speaker 8: Also, why did John felt the need to keep for

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Speaker 8: a seat from the petrol station for all those.

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Speaker 2: Years, carrying around in his wallet.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that's not normal behavior unless you feel like you

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Speaker 7: have to have a defense in some way.

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Speaker 1: And here's how the detective Graham Diskins summarized that in

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Speaker 1: one of the internal police running sheets from early June

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. If it sounds familiar, that's because you

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Speaker 1: heard this in episode five.

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Speaker 9: Had a long conversation with John Winfield about missing person

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Speaker 9: and reason for taking children to Sydney on Sunday night.

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Speaker 9: Stated that they travel better at night and that his

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Speaker 9: wife was aware that he would have them for eight

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Speaker 9: to ten days in Sydney whilst she had a break.

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Speaker 9: Produced a document where he purchased petrol in Ballina at

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Speaker 9: six minutes past eleven on May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 9: This is consistent with next door neighbor hearing him leave

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Speaker 9: the premises unable to assist with phone call being made

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Speaker 9: from his premises at two thirteen am on the Monday morning.

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Speaker 9: Indications are that the missing person has returned to the

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Speaker 9: family home after he and the children had left and

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Speaker 9: made the call whilst obtaining her property. He still states

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Speaker 9: that after she made the call early in the evening,

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Speaker 9: she walked out the front door about nine pm carrying

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Speaker 9: no property. We still can't find her handbag or a

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Speaker 9: small blue suitcase.

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Speaker 1: Throughout this episode, you are going to hear a number

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Speaker 1: of theories about why John seemed so attached to the

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Speaker 1: petrol receipt and where Broman's remains might be. These theories

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Speaker 1: are based on circumstantial evidence. While John vehemently denies wrongdoing

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Speaker 1: or any involvement in Broman's disappearance, these theories give Bromwan's

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Speaker 1: family hope that her remains may be found and that

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Speaker 1: she can one day be properly laid to rest. Now

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Speaker 1: here's Andy's theory about John's strange relationship with the seat

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Speaker 1: for petrol.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's because he knows he was seen

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Speaker 2: after eleven ih six in Ballina by Judy, So therefore

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Speaker 2: he's trying to prove that he was gone, he wasn't there,

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Speaker 2: and anything Judy has to say as the relevant is.

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Speaker 1: That, based in part on Jude Singh's disclosure that she

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Speaker 1: had a lantern on and he looked up, she saw

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Speaker 1: him look up at the balcony one.

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Speaker 2: It all makes sense, now, why was everything based around

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Speaker 2: that receipt? Why are you showing people that receipt? Debbie

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Speaker 2: would be able to tell you the same story that

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Speaker 2: he's showing her and Murray this petrol receipt that he

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Speaker 2: was eleven o six.

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Speaker 1: He also produced that receipt to the detective Graham Diskin

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three. It's mentioned in the rolling sheets.

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Speaker 2: Well there you gon't, but then it's also mentioned in Taylor's,

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Speaker 2: which are five and a half years later. It just

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Speaker 2: struck us that, wow, there's the reason why so much

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Speaker 2: emphasis is brought on that petrol receipt.

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Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle told me that Broman had complained she

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Speaker 1: was so strapped for cash she could afford to put

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Speaker 1: only small serves of fuel in the Ford Falcon sedan.

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Speaker 1: The tank was never filled up.

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Speaker 6: Particularly after she moved out and went to Byron Street.

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Speaker 8: If he realized there was no petrol.

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Speaker 6: And then.

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Speaker 2: Things have happened at home.

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Speaker 6: Allegedly, the first thing he's going to have to do

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Speaker 6: is go get petrol, because you're not going to risk

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Speaker 6: having the car break down run out of petrol. So

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Speaker 6: he's gone and got petrol which is where Murray's seen

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Speaker 6: in quietly leaving the house because he doesn't want anyone

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Speaker 6: to know.

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Speaker 10: That he's leaving.

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Speaker 6: He goes down the hill and around, gets the petrol,

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Speaker 6: and comes back and heads down Granite Street.

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Speaker 4: Whatever time that is.

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Speaker 2: June's recollection is that it's very late that night, just

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Speaker 2: before midnight.

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Speaker 6: And he's gone down Granite Street to do whatever he's

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Speaker 6: got to do, realizes he's been seen, probably goes somewhere

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Speaker 6: and I'm not going.

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Speaker 8: To say anymore.

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Speaker 6: It makes it stick thinking about it, and then shoots

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Speaker 6: back and gets the girls, which then coincides with what

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Speaker 6: Crystal always said to us, Oh I saw the clock.

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Speaker 8: It was one o'clock. That timeline kind of fits.

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Speaker 2: We're the shortest route you're looking for. A body of

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Speaker 2: water is Lake Ainsworth. It's completely filled with cannon from

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Speaker 2: the tree trees. It's a dark lake. By the time

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Speaker 2: you got your arm in the water and you go

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Speaker 2: to the length of your arm, the chances are you

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Speaker 2: can't even see your hand. It was a lovely safe

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Speaker 2: place to take the kids and swim without worrying about

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Speaker 2: rips and things like that. But everyone was always mindful

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Speaker 2: to keep an eye on the kids, because if they

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Speaker 2: went off the sand bank into the deeper water, you

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Speaker 2: got buckets of finding them they went under. It's a

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Speaker 2: dark lake. Tanning in the water is unbelievable.

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Speaker 11: The sound of the car backing out and scraping the

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Speaker 11: bottom is perhaps he was already getting things organized to

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Speaker 11: help weigh things down and we something was in the boot.

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Speaker 2: And there's no way that there was enough time to

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Speaker 2: dig somewhere to hide.

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Speaker 6: Bromwin the street on the right hand side of the lake,

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Speaker 6: and if you go up there you can nearly at

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Speaker 6: some point back your car or park right beside the.

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Speaker 8: Edge of the road and the water is right next

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Speaker 8: to you.

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Speaker 2: Back then there was a road in and out, but

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Speaker 2: now it's actually a pedestrian path after the first few

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Speaker 2: hundred motors.

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Speaker 1: What's the function of the surfboard.

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Speaker 2: To be able to take her out to the center

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Speaker 2: of the lake where it's quite deep way down, drop

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Speaker 2: her off the board, paddle back in, come on, pick

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Speaker 2: up the girls by all out to Sydney.

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Speaker 1: In your opinion, the ten forty pm trip that Murray witnesses,

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Speaker 1: where the car bottoms out and then rolls down the hill,

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Speaker 1: lights off, an engine off is the first trip, and

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Speaker 1: that's to get fuel.

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Speaker 2: I believe, so he would have known that the lights

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Speaker 2: were still on in Murray's house.

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Speaker 6: If you're going to leave children in the house because

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Speaker 6: you've got to go and do something, you don't want

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Speaker 6: them to wake up.

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Speaker 2: You don't want them to hear you leaving. So he's

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Speaker 2: stealth away, gets the petrol, comes back packs the car,

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Speaker 2: match down the drive.

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Speaker 4: Possible that the door didn't.

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Speaker 2: Latch securely, and when he's backed out because of the

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Speaker 2: angle of the hill, what Judy identifies as the money

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Speaker 2: could have weighed or slightly bumped the door and that's

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Speaker 2: turned the interior light on. So he's gone very very

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Speaker 2: slowly down Granite Street. He wasn't banking on the poor

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Speaker 2: lady that's worried about miscarrying and and all sorts of

243
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Speaker 2: things drama's going on, couldn't sleep and was sitting on

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Speaker 2: a veranda. She actually states that he glanced up. She

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Speaker 2: knew exactly who it was, and she remembers the car.

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Speaker 2: There's plenty of locals that will tell you that car

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Speaker 2: at squeaky brakes. Judy has seen the car and there

248
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Speaker 2: was no children in the backseat of that car with

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Speaker 2: a surfboard and a mummy. Why is someone carrying at

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Speaker 2: receipt around for so long to prove and they left

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Speaker 2: town at eleven oh six That eleven.

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Speaker 1: Oh six pm receipt only shows that he bought fuel

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Speaker 1: at eleven oh six pm. It doesn't show what time

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Speaker 1: he left anywhere.

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Speaker 2: But it now brings relevance to the fact of why

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Speaker 2: are you putting so much emphasis on it?

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Speaker 4: I believe he knows that.

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Speaker 1: He was seen. Mel Taylor, Marian Deb's daughter. She has

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Speaker 1: a very vivid memory on Tuesday May eighteen of going

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Speaker 1: into the house and seeing the children's bed stripped of

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Speaker 1: their sheets. Correat, Well, we know that Broman had tucked

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Speaker 1: the children in correct, How would Lauren and Crystal have

263
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Speaker 1: coped with being woken up and had their bedstripped and

264
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Speaker 1: dad goes missing.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't believe that happened. I believe that they

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Speaker 2: were put in the main bedroom. It's just my theory

267
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 2: because Bristol when she was about eighteen or so and

268
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Speaker 2: first came down to Sydney. She came and spend a

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Speaker 2: little bit of time with us, and it's probably the

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Speaker 2: first time that we had what I'd refer to as

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Speaker 2: an adult conversation about the whole thing. She had this

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Speaker 2: recollection that she saw one o'clock. She thought it was

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Speaker 2: one o'clock when she got woken. Dad woke say we're

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Speaker 2: going in the car. Ian Michelle vividly, totally, totally remember

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Speaker 2: that conversation at our place that she thought it was

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Speaker 2: one o'class.

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Speaker 6: She went, no, no, it'sn't a lap and it was one,

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Speaker 6: like she corrected us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And bearing in mind it's a theory and it's

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Speaker 1: pure speculation. But you have in your mind John going

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Speaker 1: into the children's bedrooms, waking each of them up, directing

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Speaker 1: them to go in the mum and dad's room.

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Speaker 2: How many times have you picked your kids up and

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00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,680
Speaker 2: relocated them asleep and they wouldn't even be aware of it. Yep,

285
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Speaker 2: we've done it multiple times.

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Speaker 1: Yes, of course, you come home your kids.

287
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Speaker 4: Have fallen asleep in the car.

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Speaker 2: Whether they're ten and five or eight and three, doesn't matter.

289
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Speaker 2: You pick your kids up. They probably stir, they wake up,

290
00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,719
Speaker 2: They cut off back into your shoulder, You carry them,

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Speaker 2: and you put down into the bed. They wake up

292
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Speaker 2: with them and they've got no idea how they got there.

293
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Speaker 4: I believe that they were.

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Speaker 2: Possibly moved into the bedroom, put in the main bed

295
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:15,359
Speaker 2: sheets obtained hence by Melt has that vivid memory, and

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Speaker 2: they were used to discard Bromwin.

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Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 2: You could walk down the middle of Lenny's head on

299
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,440
Speaker 2: a Sunday night's dark naked mate no one and see you.

300
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,439
Speaker 2: No one was around. It was very quiet on a

301
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 2: Sunday night. It's not like the Cosmopolitan, the sort of

302
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,560
Speaker 2: place it is today. It's possibly some concrete blocks or

303
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,960
Speaker 2: something around. I don't recall john't ever really leaving the

304
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 2: place that untidy, but he did. You have weights and

305
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,000
Speaker 2: a bench pressing everything in the garage, bar bells and

306
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 2: things like that. Wap down around a body with a

307
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 2: piece of rope and tie them on. You're going to

308
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,720
Speaker 2: drive straight down there, straight down the hill, straight through

309
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 2: the main drag, go down to Lake Gainsworth. It's not

310
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 2: lit up. I believe that everything would have been floated

311
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,200
Speaker 2: out on the surfboard. Swim out with your arm over

312
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 2: the top of the board, using your legs and your

313
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 2: other arm, swim all the way out out to the middle.

314
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Speaker 4: Chip it.

315
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,199
Speaker 2: She's not gonna fight very well, jump back on, paddle

316
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:30,000
Speaker 2: back in. Job done, ten minutes flat. It's a terrible

317
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 2: thing to be thinking of. It makes sense back aim

318
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 2: makes sense to us now bugged us for so long

319
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Speaker 2: Why he had to put so much emphasis on that

320
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Speaker 2: petrol receipt.

321
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Speaker 4: It's the time stamp he's after.

322
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always bugged me. I couldn't fathom it, and

323
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 1: you and I talked about it, and I asked Scruffy

324
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Speaker 1: about it. I did wonder what was the motive for

325
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,600
Speaker 1: him to be showing people that were seen to prove

326
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Speaker 1: that he didn't have time to take her body and

327
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Speaker 1: bury her anywhere between A and B. The way he

328
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Speaker 1: saw it was John wanted to prove that he didn't

329
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Speaker 1: have time for foul play.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

331
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Speaker 2: Well, scrappies on the money, isn't he.

332
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Speaker 1: I've just missed a call from Mardie. She's been doing

333
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Speaker 1: a bit of research too. I'll catch up with her

334
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Speaker 1: and maybe we'll talk tomorrow. Hey, Okay, goes By, you've

335
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 1: been doing some homework.

336
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 8: I have been doing some work.

337
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: Since meeting Mattie Walsh in September twenty twenty three in Sydney.

338
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: I have asked her to do many tasks for this

339
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Speaker 1: podcast series about the disappearance of her second cousin, Bromwin.

340
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 1: Maddie has done research into laws that were in existence

341
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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three to protect women from domestic violence,

342
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 1: and Maddie's done timelines around key events in the case.

343
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 1: She's discovered anomalies in the evidence. She has read and

344
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Speaker 1: summarized hundreds of pages of transcript from the five days

345
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Speaker 1: of public hearings of the inquest from two thousand and two,

346
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Speaker 1: and that's for a later episode. We will reconstruct the

347
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Speaker 1: evidence of key witnesses who were part of that inquest,

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Speaker 1: overseen by the then Deputy State Coroner Karl Milavanovitch. Although

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Speaker 1: Mattie was not born until two thousand and three, a

350
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 1: decade after Bromwin vanished in Lennox Head, Maddie has met

351
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 1: several of the key witnesses in this place. People liked

352
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Speaker 1: the retired detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor and Bromwin's neighbors Debbie

353
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: Hall and Murray Nolan. Surfer's incredible. There's a lot of

354
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Speaker 1: guys out and girls.

355
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Speaker 8: What do you think of I love it here. I've

356
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Speaker 8: been here a lot before. What's gorgeous.

357
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Speaker 1: We drove the coast road and envied the lucky surfers

358
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Speaker 1: who were out riding endlessly peeling perfect waves.

359
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Speaker 7: In my teenage years, we used to go on drives

360
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Speaker 7: and things around here.

361
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Speaker 1: Did you associate it with Bromin when you visited here?

362
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Speaker 7: I you should appeared in Lennox Heath, But I did

363
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 7: not know that they actually lived here. I was not

364
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 7: aware of that because I had always known Crystal to

365
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 7: live in Sydney. It took me a while to realize

366
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Speaker 7: that that wasn't a normal thing with other families.

367
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Speaker 8: Don't just casually have family members that I've been murdered allegedly,

368
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Speaker 8: Let's not forget the allegedly.

369
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: On one of my visits to Lennox, I drove Maddie

370
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 1: where deb Hall had taken me, right past John's house,

371
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Speaker 1: not the one he used to live in in Sandstone Crescent.

372
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Speaker 8: So did he build this next house or did he

373
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Speaker 8: just buy it?

374
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Speaker 11: Do you know.

375
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 1: He built it?

376
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Speaker 4: Interesting?

377
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 8: It does look like a fortress. I feel like a

378
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Speaker 8: private investigator.

379
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: Maddie knew from me about a woman called Judy Singh

380
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: long before I disclosed it to anyone else. Maddie's good

381
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: at keeping secrets. She's been a vault at twenty one,

382
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: Maddie hasn't yet joined the workforce. She's doing all of

383
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 1: this work for the podcast on a voluntary basis. Perhaps

384
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: that's why we call the tasks that she does her homework.

385
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: Since Judy Singh's revelations were aired in episode seven with

386
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: graphics and video reconstructions on the website of The Australian

387
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: and the Bronwyn podcast dot com site, Maddie has been busy.

388
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Speaker 1: What have you found?

389
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 7: I was researching into how fabric decomposes in freshwater and

390
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 7: also saltwater, and I found that polyester does not decompose

391
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 7: because it's mainly made out of plastics. And then I

392
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 7: searched up what surfboard covers are made out of because

393
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 7: that's the going theory that he put her in a

394
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 7: surfbook cover, and surfboard bags are most commonly made out

395
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 7: of polyester, which means that there's entirely a possibility that

396
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 7: she is still in a surfbook cover at the bottom

397
00:24:55,280 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 7: of a body of water. But I found more things. Okay,

398
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 7: I was looking at how much weight you would need

399
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,959
Speaker 7: for a body to be submerged in water and not

400
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 7: float back up, and for a fit person like Bromwyn,

401
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 7: who was very tall and lean, so a fit person

402
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 7: they displace one hundred five percent of their body weight

403
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 7: in water. Eight to ten percent of their weight is

404
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 7: needed in order to submerge them. For instance, if you

405
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,959
Speaker 7: fill a surfboard bag with what could be loose concrete,

406
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 7: which is the easiest to source the cheapest, you only

407
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 7: need ten percent of per body weight, which I don't

408
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 7: really know maths, but what is that maybe, which is

409
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 7: not a lot. It's not as much as you think.

410
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 7: The bigger you are and the more fat you hold,

411
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 7: the easier it is for you to float to the top.

412
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 7: The thinner you are, you're likely, just based on how

413
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 7: you're built, not likely to float up to the top.

414
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 7: There's also a running theory that it could be Lake Ainsworth. Now,

415
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 7: the thing about this lake is it's a freshwater tea

416
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 7: tree lake with a dark color to it. This is

417
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 7: because of certain trees which have permanently colored the water brown.

418
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 7: People love to go swithing there and all the rest

419
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 7: of it, which is a little bit morbid now that

420
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 7: I think about it. Basically, one girl said that she

421
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 7: loves being there when she was little, but as she

422
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 7: got further out, the deep the water got, the darker

423
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 7: it got and when she would dive down, she wouldn't

424
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 7: be able to see anything.

425
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 8: She compared it to a dark abyss.

426
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 7: So if you were to be up above looking down,

427
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 7: you couldn't see anything in there. It's a dark body

428
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 7: of water, even when you're going under the water.

429
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Speaker 1: I try to picture a man pulling a surfboard with

430
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: Bromin's body in a surfboard bag on top of that board,

431
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: and then toppling over the side, sinking to these really dark,

432
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 1: murky depths. But you're saying that because the surfboard bag

433
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: is almost certainly made out of polyester, it's probably intact.

434
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 7: Yes, that is what I'm saying. Everything inside probably has decomposed.

435
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 7: The body will just naturally release gases and bacteria that

436
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 7: will eat away at the body over time. But the

437
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 7: body will still be together because of this surfboard bag. Now,

438
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 7: if it was just in a sheet, and he just

439
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 7: disposed of the body in the sheet that Jude saw

440
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 7: a body wrapped in, then it would be a different

441
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 7: story because that sheet would decompose quite quickly due to

442
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 7: its videgradable nature, and due to currents, debris, or the

443
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 7: rest of it. It caused the body to depart especially limbs.

444
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: I remember mel telling us when we met her in

445
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: that public library that John used to intimidate her because

446
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: she'd see him in the garage. I think it was

447
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: this because of the strength of him. It's just my

448
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: memory of the person he was seeing him working out

449
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: with his Brench press and yeah, that wasn't the garage.

450
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: So if he's got heavy weights which would allow you

451
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: to say, thread rope or a chain through those, so

452
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: then wrap around a surfboard bag, or alternatively, because they're

453
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: quite flat, you could slide those into a surfboard bag

454
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: which is already enclosing a body. You raise concrete as

455
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: a possibility, and that could be right, but so much

456
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: easier if you've got flat and really heavy actual ways, if.

457
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 7: It is ways, there's a chance those weights are still intact.

458
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: And you confirm that the material for surfboard bags in

459
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three was polyester.

460
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's made out of plastic.

461
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 7: It's slightly waterproof, it's light, it's durable.

462
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 8: It makes a lot of sense that it wouldn't break down.

463
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 7: It'd be much easier to transfer a body in a

464
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 7: polyester bag because it'd be more sturdy. I found an

465
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 7: article on the people that recover bodies for free. They

466
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 7: have found so many bodies, like over one hundred bodies.

467
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 12: Authorities credit Gene and Cindy Rouston of CUNA with helping

468
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 12: them find the body of a missing man, but they've

469
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 12: been helping families and law enforcement agencies for over two

470
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 12: decades now. The couple started back in nineteen ninety nine

471
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 12: and since then they say they've assisted in at least

472
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 12: one hundred and seventeen body recoveries. It's a lot of

473
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 12: bodies if you ask me, and they're really nice people.

474
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 12: Geene Ralston says what him and his wife do gives

475
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 12: them a good feeling.

476
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 13: You don't really know what it means to have someone

477
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 13: lost in the water, and they'll be able to find them.

478
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 13: Side scan sonar uses sound to create images of things,

479
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 13: much like medical ultrasound in that it doesn't require light,

480
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 13: but you can think of sound as light. That it

481
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 13: transmits a beam of sound and then it reflects off

482
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 13: the bottom and images objects on the bottom. Anything on

483
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 13: the bottom will typically have a distinct shadow behind it.

484
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 7: And they found a man who had been missing for

485
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 7: twenty nine years using SONA and the oldest body they

486
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 7: recovered was someone who had been lying at the bottom

487
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 7: of a lake for as long as one hundred years.

488
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 7: Oh my gosh, through SONA and they found bodies that

489
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 7: have been bound with jim waite and they have been

490
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 7: found using cable ties.

491
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 8: They linked the cable ties back to the.

492
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 7: Person who murdered this person because they found that at

493
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 7: their house. So they also said murder victims look different

494
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 7: under sonar because they're usually tied up and weighed down.

495
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 8: So this is actually very common occurrence.

496
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: You like Lake Ainsworth as a possibility, it's too risky.

497
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 8: In the ocean, yeah, it's too risky. He wouldn't have

498
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 8: done that.

499
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 7: And also, imagine trying to get through the waves in

500
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 7: the middle of the night in a lake of water.

501
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 7: You know that not much is going to change except

502
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 7: for maybe a bit of winds and a bit of current.

503
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle are of the same view that Lay

504
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: Ainsworth is the target zone.

505
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 7: If she was in a sand dune, the wind would

506
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 7: have recovered her. He didn't have enough time to bury

507
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 7: her six feet under. And also digging a hole in

508
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 7: sand is very difficult, especially at night. It would be

509
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 7: so much easier to drop her in the middle.

510
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: Of a lake that Maddie at the start of this podcast,

511
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: In fact, months before the first episode was released, I

512
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: remember talking to you at Megan's house.

513
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 10: You were really.

514
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: Determined to keep an open mind and not have too

515
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: many preconceptions about things. Is it the way of evidence

516
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: now that has caused you to now look at John

517
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: as her probable killer or is there something else going on?

518
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 8: Well, it's definitely based on the evidence.

519
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 7: I mean when I first started this, I didn't really

520
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 7: know any of the evidence. But once you take into

521
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 7: perspective every single fact and everyone's recollections, and now with

522
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 7: Jew's recollection, the possibility or the hypothesis that something else

523
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 7: happened is really so impossible. There's really no other explanation.

524
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 7: So he knows the lake well, and the lake is.

525
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 8: Better than the ocean. He's very familiar with water.

526
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 7: He had a surfboard in the cup, used the surfboard

527
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 7: as a floatation device of sorts.

528
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 8: Now that I've looked more into the lake, it seems

529
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 8: to all line up.

530
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: Now.

531
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 7: He knew the water. He was a water person. He's

532
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 7: in the water every day. He knew the lake, he

533
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 7: knew the color of the lake, he knew that it

534
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 7: was dark due to the terrain surrounding it, so the

535
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 7: chances of her being seen from bird's eye view impossible.

536
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 7: If the lake has never been searched before, it just

537
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 7: shows you how untouched it is really, and the police

538
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 7: aren't doing anything, so might just have to be us.

539
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 7: I don't have a sonar thingy, we won't be able

540
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 7: to see anything Scooba diving wise. I'll actually look around

541
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 7: and see who owns one up there. I'm sure someone does.

542
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 7: We can do it. It's entirely possible.

543
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 1: Mary's often to help.

544
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 8: Oh amazing.

545
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: He has in his mind the area where he believes

546
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: if she's there, she would be.

547
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 7: Well, that's exactly who we need then, because it's a

548
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 7: big lake and you have to go so slow and

549
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 7: whatever boat you're on, because you have to do a

550
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 7: grid search. And there's also a chance there's a lot

551
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 7: of debris because there's a lot of trees, the tea

552
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 7: tree leaves. He'll be in layers, probably close to the

553
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 7: shore where the trees are, and then probably be less

554
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 7: and less as we get deeper. But you know what

555
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 7: else exists. It's like mini submarines. But it's going to

556
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 7: be hard to see that swimny thing. You can't see

557
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 7: anything in the lake.

558
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: Steal weights, dumb bells or whatever. They may show up

559
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 1: with metal detection equipment.

560
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 7: True, a lot of people on the internet have like

561
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 7: discussed this, and it's kind of creepy, just like weighing

562
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 7: bodies down. So when I said concrete, I'm in concrete

563
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 7: in the bag. Concrete is heavy already on its own.

564
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 7: Water into that that's really heavy. If it was like

565
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 7: a six foot bag with the dumb bells, you could

566
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 7: cable tie the dumb bells to like the handles and

567
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 7: all the rest of it.

568
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: The thing that surprises me, Mattie, is the relatively small

569
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: amount of weight that would submerge a lean body.

570
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 7: But then it's backed up by scuba divers.

571
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 8: Obviously, if you.

572
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 7: Want to scuba dive, you have to wear weights so

573
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 7: you can actually go under.

574
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 8: Because we have this thing called it like a mutual

575
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:00,439
Speaker 8: boyt and sy.

576
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 7: Because our lungs fill with air. When they fill with air,

577
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 7: we float. No matter whether you're dead or alive. You

578
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 7: need weight to get you down, to actually get you

579
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 7: deep into the water. So freshwater you're likely to sink

580
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 7: easier because saltwater makes you more buoyant, and then obviously

581
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 7: the depth of the water. If you are really deep,

582
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 7: it's going to be harder for you to float back

583
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 7: up just based on the pressure of the water.

584
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: Was it a bit disconcerting doing all this research?

585
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 8: This is my favorite thing to do. I was a student.

586
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 7: Now I'm a graduate, so technically a forensic scientist, and

587
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 7: this is the type of research.

588
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 8: That I love.

589
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 1: Scruffy texted me today, Oh gosh, what did he say?

590
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: Lake Ainsworth?

591
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 8: Really?

592
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: Yeah? Mary Nolan is also of that view.

593
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 7: I think we need to get a a sona, a

594
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 7: side scan sona because they have found so many people.

595
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 7: I will happily die if we find something.

596
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: You won't be able to see anything.

597
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 8: Well, it doesn't matter.

598
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 7: It's like braille. You just feel around. That's what someone

599
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 7: described it as. You have to touch, you can't see.

600
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: I just wanted to check in Andy, because those text

601
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: messages could be important. Could you please just tell me

602
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: the background to those? I was contacted by a friend.

603
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: This case is filled with what ifs. There are several

604
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 1: compelling theories about where Bromwin's body might be. Lake Ainsworth,

605
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: for example, has sounded plausible since Judy Singh came forward

606
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: and described having seen a surfboard in the Ford Falcon

607
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: late at night, besides something that looked like a body

608
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: wrapped in sheets. But until Judy revealed those remarkable things

609
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: in episode seven, Blake Ainsworth had scarcely been mentioned to

610
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: me by anyone. Madison, Walsh, Andy Reid, Michelle and I

611
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: were suspicious instead about a building site in the Southerland

612
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 1: Shire south of Sydney, the shire where John Winfield grew

613
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: up and where he lived with and then divorced his

614
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: first two wives before meeting Bromman and moving with her

615
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 1: to Lennox Head. The truth is, we don't know where

616
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: broman is, but there are good reasons to keep an

617
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: open mind and to remain suspicious of that building site

618
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 1: in the shire. You'll recall that John Winfield left Sydney

619
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 1: suddenly on the late afternoon of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen

620
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 1: ninety three to fly to Ballina, and then he went

621
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: to his home in Sandstone Crescent because Bromin had moved

622
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: back in there with her two daughters. John had been

623
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: in Sydney for several weeks because he was helping the

624
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: builder Glenn Webster, construct a house for Glenn In a

625
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: place called Illawong in the Shire. Andy's friend, we'll just

626
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: call him Mike, was familiar with it because right next

627
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: to Glenn Webster's house block was another block of land.

628
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: A new house would in time be built there too,

629
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: by the respected builder Glenn Webster. This other house was

630
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: for Mike's brother. Andy has shown me a photograph and

631
00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: it's dated July nineteen ninety three. It shows that construction

632
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: has not begun on Mike's brother's house, but the house

633
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: next to it was underway. The brick walls were up.

634
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: Andy is a qualified builder who works on house builds

635
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: every day. The photograph from July nineteen ninety three of

636
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: the building site at which John was working shows an

637
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 1: early stage of construction. Now we know John denies wrongdoing,

638
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: and there is no suggestion whatsoever of any wrongdoing by

639
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: Glenn Webster, a highly regarded builder noted for his professionalism.

640
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 2: I believe over the years that John has done a

641
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: fair bit of work for Glenn Webster.

642
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: Do you know the area?

643
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 4: I know the area, yes, correct.

644
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: We know that John was working there in ninety three.

645
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: What was it like? Was it densely populated.

646
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 4: Thirty years ago?

647
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 2: It wouldn't have been No, Illawong was a suburb that

648
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 2: might have had sporadic housing around it.

649
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,280
Speaker 1: How far away is it from your house now?

650
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 4: Twenty minute run.

651
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: When I read your text message and saw the reference

652
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: to the volume of excavation and concrete and so on,

653
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: and just in the context of what the coroner believes

654
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 1: has happened and what the police believe happened, it just

655
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: made a whole lot of sense. What was he doing

656
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 1: after he dropped the girls at his ex wife's place.

657
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: Jane was looking after him. Correct, It's amazing what you

658
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 2: followed out.

659
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: Have you previously considered, just as a theory, the idea

660
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: that Romin's remains may have been concreted or breakeed in

661
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: at that property in Illawong where John was working.

662
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 2: There's been plenty of theory like and we tossed up

663
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 2: the idea that possibly he could have driven all the

664
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: way down here.

665
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 4: We prombined in the boot of that car.

666
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: It makes some sort of sense for the fact that

667
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: he brought no luggage, no suitcases, no clothes, nothing for

668
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: the girls to wear.

669
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: But when he arrived at your house and Michelle saw him,

670
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: he opened the boot, didn't he?

671
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: Once I got home, I asked him, and we went

672
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: up to the back at the car and he opened

673
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 2: the boot. That's where he got out the two small

674
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: pillow cases that had you know, like three or four

675
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 2: items of clothing chucked in each pillow case, but nothing

676
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: was adequate for Sydney weather. That just struck me how

677
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 2: clean the boot was and there was only the metal lighting.

678
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 2: I could see the spare.

679
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 4: Tire by lightning.

680
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 1: You mean no upholstery, do carpet, none of the usual stuff.

681
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 2: Well in the old days, old cars like that, they

682
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: just had like an old vinyl type lighting.

683
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 7: Do you remember questioning why he didn't bring any stuff,

684
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 7: why they had no clothes?

685
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 6: I said, why has everything shoved into a pillowcase? Like what?

686
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 10: And I had a quick look inside and I said, like,

687
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 10: there's not.

688
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,479
Speaker 8: That much in here. That was There was a couple of.

689
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 6: T shirts and singlets and bits and pieces, but there

690
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 6: was nothing substantial in it.

691
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 10: And I said, John, why didn't you Why didn't you

692
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 10: pack properly, Like where's the kids clothes?

693
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 8: And he said, oh, no, you know, the kids.

694
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,959
Speaker 6: I had to drive in the nighttime because it's better

695
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 6: for them if I drive at night.

696
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 8: So I just quickly got stuff together and took off.

697
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was his excuse.

698
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: The building site in the shire where John was working

699
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: as a place where perhaps if John killed bromwinin she

700
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: may have been disposed of. How do you rate that

701
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: theory amongst all the others you've heard, when you consider

702
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:11,720
Speaker 1: the different circumstances.

703
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 10: Having seen the boot and knowing that really there wasn't

704
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 10: that much in there, that thought crossed our minds, and

705
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 10: then we thought, oh my god, please don't tell me

706
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 10: he's traveled all the way to Sydney with that poor

707
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 10: lady in the back like that really bothered us. And

708
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 10: then of course the fact that he went to a stranger,

709
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 10: you know, he was prepared to ask somebody else to

710
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 10: mind the kids, and he even asked them for clothes.

711
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 8: It's kind of like crazy.

712
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 11: And the fact that he wanted them to stay there

713
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 11: for a couple of weeks, like.

714
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 10: He wasn't even entertaining coming to us, as they had said.

715
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 7: Yes, it is telling though the fact that he did

716
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 7: go to is first wife's place and trusted her mother

717
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 7: in law who he had never met, who she had

718
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 7: never met him to look after the kids instead of

719
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 7: going to family. That was what so close ten minutes away.

720
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 7: He didn't want people to start questioning Bromwin's disappearance so

721
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 7: early on, because no one knew until he rocked up

722
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 7: at your place.

723
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 1: For this theory to have force, any plan to conceal

724
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: Broman's body somewhere in Lennox Head, such as Lake Ainsworth

725
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: late on the Sunday night had to have been abandoned

726
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: in favor of a sudden drive south to Sydney. Would

727
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: a fear that a neighbor, Judy Singh, sitting near a

728
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: lantern on her balcony in Granite Street, had seen John

729
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 1: with what appeared to be a body in the back

730
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: seat of the Ford falcon have brought about an abrupt

731
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: change of planned That's the question Andy and Michelle ask

732
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: themselves now, particularly in light of their confidence about why

733
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: John has gripped onto his petrol receipt since that fateful

734
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: Sunday night thirty one years ago. He's driven through the night.

735
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: He's got to be really tired because he had traveled

736
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 1: up from Sydney on the Sunday, arrives Sunday evening, goes

737
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 1: to the house, leaves the house, and he drives through

738
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: the night. Then he turns up at the hair salon

739
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: to see Jodie. Then he goes to his ex wife's

740
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: house where he speaks to the mother in law and

741
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: when he talks to her, he doesn't want to put

742
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: his head down for a sleep. He says, can you

743
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 1: please look after my children. I've got some important work

744
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,959
Speaker 1: to do. I've got a big job to do. That's

745
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: what she says in her statement. And was he actually

746
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 1: intending when he flew to Balloner on the Sunday night

747
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: to be back in Sydney the next day for work.

748
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 10: Well, from everything that I've read from mister Webster's statement,

749
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 10: he didn't even tell him.

750
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 8: He was going.

751
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:17,959
Speaker 4: He just left. He just left. Shit.

752
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 8: He told me in the.

753
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 6: Afternoon when he rocked up and knocked on the door,

754
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 6: and I walked down and I got the shock of

755
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 6: my life to see them there.

756
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 8: He eventually told me that he had to get the

757
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 8: car registered.

758
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 4: That's what he'd been doing. So that was what he

759
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 4: told me he'd been doing.

760
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: And he you're a builder, yep, this is a really

761
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: difficult question for you to consider. Is the construction of

762
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: a house when it's at an early stage a place

763
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: where you could conceal a body without much trouble.

764
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 2: Without a doubt, quite as you do something underneath any

765
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: part of the slab. There was a lot of excavation

766
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: that was at that stage of coming short of what

767
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: we call out of the ground. You would hide it

768
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,760
Speaker 2: underneath in the preparation or in the soil or the sand.

769
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 2: You got footings all the way around the edge. It's

770
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: seriously not a hard issue to possibly hide someone like that.

771
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: And he told me that his friend had been concerned

772
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: for years about the illulung possibility.

773
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 2: Well, I had a phone conversation, not only the text messages,

774
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 2: and he actually confided in me. Couldn't give me the

775
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 2: exact date, but he actually called this information through to

776
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 2: christ Stoppers.

777
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 4: Never heard another thing.

778
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 2: He rang it through from that day forth, you never

779
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 2: heard anything. I know that they also checked a house

780
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: up that way that John had burned linked to building,

781
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,399
Speaker 2: and they evidly scanned a slab. The slab was very

782
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 2: thick for the SyES of the room it was, but

783
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: they found nothing.

784
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: I've talked to Scruffy, you know, Ian Lewis about that yelp.

785
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: He had suspicions about that. In the previous episode, you

786
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: heard Scruffy's reference to the thickness of the concrete in

787
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: a house that John had been working on in the

788
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: Lenox area. But it is very hard to fit this

789
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 1: theory given the limited amount of time that was available

790
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: to John. However, the other house construction site in the

791
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: Shire south of Sydney was in a suburb called Illawong

792
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: that at the time was relatively isolated and surrounded by bushland,

793
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: and as John was already working there, his presence would

794
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 1: not have aroused suspicion. It would be broad daylight. That's

795
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: what we're surmising, that it's on the Monday in broad daylight.

796
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: We don't really know whether there would have been a

797
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: big crew, whether John would have been one of three

798
00:49:58,360 --> 00:49:59,240
Speaker 1: or four brickies.

799
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 2: I always knew John to work one out. He wasn't

800
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 2: part of a team. I'd never seen John on a

801
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 2: job where he allowed someone else to be laying bricks

802
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 2: on a job that he was going to put his

803
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 2: name to. He had a good reputation of being a

804
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 2: very tidy, very good brick layer.

805
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: So you saying that at that stage of the construction

806
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 1: of a house, there's probably only John working there.

807
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 4: John and whoever was laboring.

808
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 8: So is there a chance that John could have been

809
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 8: there by himself?

810
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 2: Could have if he disappeared and went out there on

811
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 2: that day.

812
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 4: He could have easily been there on his own.

813
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 8: Illowom is still and was quite bushy.

814
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 6: It's in National Park kind of surrounds, isn't it.

815
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: And is it Mike's theory or concern or suspicion, however

816
00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: you want to call it? That in the foundation, that's

817
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: where Bromwin might be. Yes, have you ever driven past

818
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: the house Andy, the house that John was working on

819
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 1: over the years, just because you might have been suspicious?

820
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 2: I have never known till this date the exact street.

821
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 2: All I knew was that John was working on a

822
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 2: house at Illowong. I've never known what actual house it was.

823
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 2: That Webster's statement says that John was helping him build

824
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: a house at illawan.

825
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: I'm just going back to Glenn's statement now.

826
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 2: And I was looking home still to this date, looks

827
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: looks lovely and it's all brick, all brick.

828
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: Until today, did you rate this idea of being a

829
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 1: possible resting place for Bromwin as a low probability or

830
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: was it up there?

831
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 2: It was discussed but at that stay. They were thinking, Wow,

832
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 2: how much front must she have to drive with apart

833
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 2: two kids in a car with the body in the

834
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 2: boot all the way to Sydney and the car wasn't

835
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 2: even registered.

836
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 4: What if he got caught or pulled over?

837
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 2: Because back in those days, remember it's not like now,

838
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: your color of your reggie stick or I genified whether

839
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: the car was out of date or not.

840
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 4: Then that's how they knew, and they pulled over.

841
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: And how would you describe Mike in terms of his balance?

842
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 2: And it's an outstanding fella, intelligent fella. And there wasn't

843
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 2: a single person that gave any credence whatsoever that bron

844
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 2: would would ever separate from those girls.

845
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 4: Not one person.

846
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 2: There's only one person on the planet that thinks she

847
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 2: was going to walk away from.

848
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 1: Maddie and I talked about this possibility after finishing our

849
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: call with Andy and Michelle.

850
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 7: As a builder, your life is on the job site.

851
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 7: Where is there a big hole? And where is there

852
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 7: a lot of dirt? And where is soon going to

853
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,359
Speaker 7: be concreted? And where is somewhere no one else will

854
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 7: frequent except for really me and whoever is working on

855
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 7: the site. I want to know who else was working

856
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 7: on the site at that time.

857
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 14: If it's true that it was just him and Glenn

858
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 14: Webster working on that side, then it's quite possible that

859
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:36,240
Speaker 14: nobody was at the site on the Monday and John's

860
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 14: able to turn up and he's got the side to himself.

861
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 7: There's not a chance he would try and bury a

862
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 7: body or dispose of a body if there are other

863
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 7: people also working there or in the vicinity. We've been

864
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 7: told that it was a relatively quiet area thirty or

865
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 7: so years ago. There must have been somewhere he could

866
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 7: drive his car up and an off time to know that,

867
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 7: Oh Glenn isn't available today, he's not coming to the site,

868
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,720
Speaker 7: or I told Glenn I didn't need his help today.

869
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:10,399
Speaker 4: I was just going to be.

870
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 7: There for a few hours, or even Glenn might have

871
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 7: had an appointment of sorts couldn't get to the site.

872
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 7: John didn't work in the team. He just works solely.

873
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 7: To be fair, it's quite smart.

874
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

875
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

876
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

877
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot Au.

878
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and we see

879
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: a range of photographs and other artwork at the website

880
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: Bromwyn Podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here

881
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 1: episodes first. The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes

882
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiert, Joshua Burton, Bridget Bryan Bianca, far Marcus,

883
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray.

884
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 1: Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio

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Speaker 1: and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been

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Speaker 1: assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We

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Speaker 1: can only do this kind of journalism with the support

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Speaker 1: of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman.

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Speaker 1: For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and

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Speaker 1: documents about this podcast and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet,

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Speaker 1: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's Legacy

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Speaker 1: and The Night Drive, go to the Australian dot com

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Speaker 1: dot Au and subscribe