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Speaker 1: Good a team.

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Speaker 2: This is part two of the conversation we started yesterday

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Speaker 2: with Sabrina, hope you're enjoying it. I won't get in

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Speaker 2: the way of what is to come enjoy.

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Speaker 1: See you at the end. Does that mean Sabrina your

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Speaker 1: honor doctor? Does that mean that?

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Speaker 2: Like my thinking is generally like when I would like,

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Speaker 2: I've worked with first responders over here, with Victoria police

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Speaker 2: and with the military a little bit, and with lots

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Speaker 2: of elite athletes.

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Speaker 1: And we just did a big study out.

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Speaker 2: Of Monash where I study which I had my first

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Speaker 2: academic paper published, which is hilarious, which is hilarious. Hang

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Speaker 2: on because there's like fifty authors, so I really don't

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Speaker 2: deserve any credit.

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Speaker 1: Whatsoever, but my name is on it.

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Speaker 2: What I wanted to say was generally speaking, we train

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Speaker 2: a soldiers and police, especially special operators like in Victoria

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Speaker 2: they call it Special Operations Group, they call them soggies,

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Speaker 2: and you know the elite soldiers where they do a

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Speaker 2: lot of like intense high level, high pressure, uncomfortable like

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Speaker 2: they just get put through the grind. It's it's as

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Speaker 2: it's as as realistic as it can be without it

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Speaker 2: being real.

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Speaker 3: Is there a.

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Speaker 2: Similar approach to train firefighters to be able to deal

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Speaker 2: with that, because you can't perform under pressure if you're

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Speaker 2: never under pressure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, totally agree. I totally agree. And if you are

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Speaker 4: just going through the motions. I mean, there's an element

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Speaker 4: where you can do that for skills development, right where

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Speaker 4: you're learning a skill and you're doing it slow time

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Speaker 4: and then you get better at it. But unless you're

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Speaker 4: actually testing that skill under pressure, actually, how do you

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Speaker 4: know that you're going to be able to use it

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Speaker 4: when you need to use it, because by the way,

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Speaker 4: that time is going to be under intense pressure, both

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Speaker 4: in terms of the pressure of the environment, the moral

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Speaker 4: pressure that you're under from people who are watching on

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Speaker 4: the people that you might be trying to rescue, and

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Speaker 4: experiencing someone else. You know, when someone else is in

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Speaker 4: pain or someone else has just experienced the death of

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Speaker 4: someone that they love literally next to them in a

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Speaker 4: car or in a house that you've managed to rescue

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Speaker 4: one from, and someone else, there is nothing that prepares

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Speaker 4: you for the emotion that you hear in that person's

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Speaker 4: There is nothing that prepares you for that. But you

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Speaker 4: have to carry on. You have to be able to

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Speaker 4: do what you need to do. And I'm particularly interested

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Speaker 4: in non technical skills. In the UK, we term them

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Speaker 4: command skills, so your ability to make decisions, your situational awareness,

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Speaker 4: your communication skills, your leadership skills, your ability to work

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Speaker 4: as a part of a team. You know, all of

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Speaker 4: these things are skills. They're not you know, they're not.

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Speaker 4: They're not some kind of higher gift that you get

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Speaker 4: that you know you're kind of born with. You're either

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Speaker 4: a great decision maker or you're not. You've got to

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Speaker 4: work at it, and working at it means doing it

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Speaker 4: in the kind of environment that you're readily going to

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Speaker 4: expect to use it in, and in our world, that

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Speaker 4: means that it's going to be emotionally charged, dynamically changing,

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Speaker 4: with little or incomplete information, sometimes inaccurate information, and it's

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Speaker 4: really tough. And it's a bit like swimming. If you

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Speaker 4: wanted to swim the length of the channel or swim

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Speaker 4: in the sea, but you only ever trained in an

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Speaker 4: Olympic sized swimming pool. You know what, you might be

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Speaker 4: the fastest, the best, you might have the greatest endurance

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Speaker 4: in a pool, but as soon as you get out

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Speaker 4: in the sea, even though it's the same skill, the

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Speaker 4: context is so different. The application changes and so you're

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Speaker 4: not going to be able to do it in the

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Speaker 4: same way. And those kind of non technical skills, the

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Speaker 4: development of those are similar. So whatever technical skill you

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Speaker 4: might be doing under pressure, it is determined by your

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Speaker 4: non technical skills. Your ability to make a judgment on

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Speaker 4: when that needs to applied or how that needs to

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Speaker 4: be applied, Your ability to communicate your intentions, your ability

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Speaker 4: to absorb the information from around you that you need

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Speaker 4: to create, your situational awareness, your mental picture, that which

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Speaker 4: is the basis of every single decision and every single

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Speaker 4: judgment that you make. That is tough, and if you

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Speaker 4: want to do that under pressure, we need to recognize

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Speaker 4: that stress affects the processing capacity that you have available.

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Speaker 4: It reduces it, so you have less processing capacity available

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Speaker 4: to absorb that information. You have less processing capacity available

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Speaker 4: to make a decision, You have less processing capacity available

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Speaker 4: to think about the message that you're trying to communicate

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Speaker 4: and whether or not that meaning has landed in the

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Speaker 4: way that you intended it to land. These are all

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Speaker 4: really important factors for the success of the overarching incident

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Speaker 4: because it's complex. So if you want those to work effectively,

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Speaker 4: you have to train them under pressure. Is no good

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Speaker 4: just doing it in slow time. You have to train

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Speaker 4: under pressure, and so making people feel uncomfortable by putting

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Speaker 4: if you're doing a command atercise, for example, by throwing

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Speaker 4: lots of injects in so you don't have time to

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Speaker 4: think about something. You don't have the luxury of being

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Speaker 4: able to hold lots of things together in your mind

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Speaker 4: at one point. It creates that sense of pressure where

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Speaker 4: you then have to prioritize your activity. And actually, even

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Speaker 4: if in real time the situation might not be like that,

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Speaker 4: for you know, the full duration of the hour that

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Speaker 4: your command exercise is actually you're compressing it, and so

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Speaker 4: what you get is like really deep practice. If you've

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Speaker 4: heard the term deep practice, it's what you're kind of synthesizing,

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Speaker 4: and it's about feeling uncomfortable. It's about doing things wrong

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Speaker 4: and then repeating them in a different way so that

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Speaker 4: you can do it better next time. But creating that

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Speaker 4: sense of pressure in whatever way you can do it

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Speaker 4: is super important. I'm a really big fan of realistic exercises.

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Speaker 4: I know they're super expensive to do. I know it's hard,

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Speaker 4: especially when you get places like I mean, in the UK,

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Speaker 4: we have the Casualties Union, who are an amazing group

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Speaker 4: of people, many of whom are amputees who've been through

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Speaker 4: traumatic incidents themselves, who will come in and role play

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Speaker 4: that they have incredible makeup on to simulate, to simulate

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Speaker 4: traumatic injuries, and they respond in a way that is

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Speaker 4: really realistic. And these people are incredible because bear in

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Speaker 4: mind they've had their own traumas to come in and

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Speaker 4: to be able to do that those experiences to help

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Speaker 4: develop the people that they know other people will rely

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Speaker 4: on in the future to go and rescue them from

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Speaker 4: similar circumstances is a level of courage that to me

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Speaker 4: is absolutely god worthy. It is awesome. But that kind

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Speaker 4: of realistic opportunity is worth waiting gold, absolutely worth its

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Speaker 4: weight in gold. But whatever you're doing when you're training,

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Speaker 4: don't just go through the motions, don't just go to

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Speaker 4: get through the end of the exercise. Make it count.

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Speaker 4: You can never train too hard for a job where

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Speaker 4: you know people die.

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Speaker 2: I love that, and it's so like I always you know,

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Speaker 2: I use this analogy of white belt to black belt,

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Speaker 2: and I say, you know, the way that you become

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Speaker 2: a black belt in any martial art is you start

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Speaker 2: as a white belt, you get punched in the face,

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Speaker 2: you get kicked in the deck, you get choked.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is what happens.

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Speaker 2: You know, you get beaten up, and then eventually you're

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Speaker 2: a yellow, then eventually a green, and a brown, and

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Speaker 2: a purple and a blue, and then whatever the system is,

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Speaker 2: you know, and then one day you wake up. You're

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Speaker 2: the same person with the same potential and the same genetics,

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Speaker 2: but now you've got new skills, new awareness, new resilience,

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Speaker 2: new understanding, new insight, same human but not really. And

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Speaker 2: now you've got that you can perform under a level

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Speaker 2: of pressure that you couldn't even think about when you're

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Speaker 2: a white belt, because you didn't know what you were doing.

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Speaker 2: You couldn't be calm, you didn't know how to self regulate.

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Speaker 2: And now five six, seven, eight, ten years down the track,

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Speaker 2: you've got this high level of ability and skill to

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Speaker 2: be able to do this thing that most people can't.

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Speaker 2: And it's because you did the work, and it's because

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Speaker 2: you weren't fucking around. It's because you had five dislocated

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Speaker 2: elbows and these, it's because you've got a thousand black eyes,

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Speaker 2: it's because you've got choked fifty times. It's like that's

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Speaker 2: you can't get good at the thing that you're not doing.

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Speaker 2: You can't master the.

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Speaker 1: Thing that you avoid.

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Speaker 3: And you can read about it and hear about it

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Speaker 3: and watch fucking videos on it and listen to lectures

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Speaker 3: about it, but unless you're actually doing it, like unless

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Speaker 3: you're actually at the coal face, rolling up your sleeves

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Speaker 3: and doing the shit or a version of it, then

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Speaker 3: when the storm cometh, Brothers and Sisters, you capitulate. You know,

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Speaker 3: We've had lots of people and speaking to that, just

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Speaker 3: as an example, we've had people on the show and

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Speaker 3: I can't say who, but it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, I can't say who.

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Speaker 2: But even something like this where people can obviously, you know,

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Speaker 2: they've got their expertise like you, they've got skill, knowledge,

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Speaker 2: you know, all of that. They can communicate and sometimes

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Speaker 2: they've written a book and you know, some whatever. But

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Speaker 2: then you put them on either I used to work

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Speaker 2: in radio as well, and so you put them in

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Speaker 2: a radio interview or on an interview with this where

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Speaker 2: you say, you know, you give them a backstory of

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Speaker 2: you know, how many people listen and what we do,

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Speaker 2: and and all of a sudden and we're live. That

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Speaker 2: person goes from being interesting and funny and articulate too. Yes, no, no, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, fucking hell, somebody just removed his personality in

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Speaker 2: the last thirteen seconds. And it's just it's terrible because

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Speaker 2: to them, there's when you say, I used to say

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Speaker 2: to people, there's only twenty thousand people, don't you know listening,

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Speaker 2: don't worry, And I would say that to fuck around.

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Speaker 2: I don't say it anymore, or how I can say

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Speaker 2: it to you because you do this all the time.

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Speaker 2: But like and then people, especially if you're thinking of

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Speaker 2: a stadium of humans or something, but something that they

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Speaker 2: do all the time, which is talk and share and educate,

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Speaker 2: now you're doing it in a different context and they

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Speaker 2: can't string three words together because there's a level, a

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Speaker 2: self created level of pressure. Yeah, and maybe I influenced

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Speaker 2: that a little bit.

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Speaker 4: It's true though, And it's you know, it's really similar

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Speaker 4: when you think about things like, you know, even a

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Speaker 4: job interview or a presentation. How many times when you've

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Speaker 4: got a big presentation, have you kind of practiced that

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Speaker 4: in front of a plant pot or in front of

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Speaker 4: the dog. Well, guess what, the dog's never going to

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Speaker 4: troll you on Twitter.

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Speaker 5: It's a safe environment. You know, You've got to do

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Speaker 5: it in front of people that make you feel uncomfortable,

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Speaker 5: because when you step in to do that presentation or

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Speaker 5: that job interview, you're going to.

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Speaker 4: Be running on adrenaline. You're going to feel anxious, you're

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Speaker 4: going to feel uncomfortable. So you need to know that

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Speaker 4: you can do it despite that feeling. You need to

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Speaker 4: know that you've practiced it in that kind of envirovement.

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Speaker 4: You need to know the places that your head is

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Speaker 4: going to go blank, where you're going to stumble, so

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Speaker 4: then you can go and focus on those bits and

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Speaker 4: make sure you know it better. You know that for me,

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Speaker 4: it's a gift. It's an absolute gift to have an

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Speaker 4: opportunity to practice something before you go in and before

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Speaker 4: you do it, and to develop those skills. And if

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Speaker 4: it means, you know, you feel uncomfortable, it means you

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Speaker 4: mess something up, or it means you feel a bit silly, well,

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Speaker 4: you know what, that's a really small price to pay

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Speaker 4: for all of the good stuff that could come out

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Speaker 4: of you being successful at this, you know, and in

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Speaker 4: my world that means people walk away, they get to

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Speaker 4: go back to their families. At the end of the day,

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Speaker 4: there's not this great, big void left by someone that's

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Speaker 4: no longer walking this planet. What a gift, What a gift.

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Speaker 2: A couple of years ago, and I know you've got

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Speaker 2: to go. We'll talk about your book in a moment.

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Speaker 2: But a couple of years ago, Sabrina.

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Speaker 1: That's actually it was it three years ago, the Crab?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, three yeah, So I was you know, I think

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Speaker 2: I told you before when it went live. I've been

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Speaker 2: training my whole life. I owned gyms all that, so

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Speaker 2: go to the gym every day and just left. Shit,

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Speaker 2: I'm not very good anymore. I'm old, I'm a bit fucked.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, I still go down, you know, sit on

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Speaker 2: a dumbbell. But anyway, The Crab my training partner, Mark,

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Speaker 2: who I lovingly call the Crab because he moves like

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Speaker 2: a crab. He's like a large crustacean with biceps. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: so we were training and he did a set of

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Speaker 2: chin ups, held his breath the whole time. Sabrina did

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Speaker 2: thirty chin ups, not an exaggeration. X pro body built,

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Speaker 2: a very strong, very big all of that. Did thirty chins,

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Speaker 2: came down and went to his hands and knees, and

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Speaker 2: I thought he was having a seizure, and he had

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Speaker 2: a cardiac arrest and died in the gym, on the

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Speaker 2: gym floor. So he came back to life, I need

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Speaker 2: say quickly, but he was dead for seventeen minutes. And

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Speaker 2: and talk about you know, people under pressure, I would

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Speaker 2: say there was. There's probably twenty people in the gym,

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Speaker 2: but in him because there's there's levels to the gym.

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Speaker 2: But within a couple of minutes there were thirty or

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Speaker 2: forty people in the gym. And so i'd you know,

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Speaker 2: his big unit is one hundred kilos, which I don't

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Speaker 2: know what that is in stone, seventeen stone maybe, So I,

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Speaker 2: you know, I got him on his back, I got

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Speaker 2: him into a position where I could work on him,

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Speaker 2: and I did that like as soon as I realized

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Speaker 2: what had happened, which was quite quickly. So I started

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Speaker 2: working on him by myself. Now thirty people were standing

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Speaker 2: on the other side of the gym, not one thing

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Speaker 2: like looking terrified. Not one person went what can I do? Ye,

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Speaker 2: not one person said can I help? And so I

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Speaker 2: just looked up and said I need somebody, And they

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Speaker 2: all stood there like nobody came, and so here's here's

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Speaker 2: my friend on the floor. I'm doing the compressions and

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Speaker 2: the breaths. I'm so I'm alternating, and I'm you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm busy.

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Speaker 1: I got shipped on and.

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Speaker 2: I look up and nobody moved forward. Nobody came. They

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Speaker 2: all just stood there looking terrified. And then this one

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Speaker 2: bloke kind of looked semi like like he was thinking

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Speaker 2: about it. And I said, what's your name? And he

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Speaker 2: said his name? And I said, let's just go Steve,

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Speaker 2: and I said, Steven, get the fuck over here. He's like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to do. I go get the

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Speaker 2: fuck over here. I'll tell you what to do, right

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Speaker 2: and that that but that a maze. Well that was messy,

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Speaker 2: and that was you know, like a daunting scenario, of course, but.

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Speaker 1: I was upon reflection later, I was amazed at how.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if nobody knew what to do, but nobody,

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Speaker 2: nobody came forward. Like I literally had to swear at

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Speaker 2: someone to get someone to help me. And that's, you know,

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Speaker 2: because who's standing next to someone when they die. Very

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Speaker 2: few people, you know, not in not where we live anyway,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: And then so you're right, people just don't know what

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and normally comfortable, competent, you know, pretty adaptable, flexible

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Speaker 2: people fucking freeze in certain circumstances. Do you know.

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Speaker 4: Well, firstly, I'm really sorry that you had that experience,

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Speaker 4: but also you are incredible because you have literally saved

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Speaker 4: Mark's life there in that in that scenario. So he's

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Speaker 4: alive because of the intervention that you made, and that's

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Speaker 4: that's pretty incredible and definitely something worth recognizing. But it's

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Speaker 4: it's funny how other people respond in a situation where

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Speaker 4: they feel deeply uncomfortable. There's been some really interesting research

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Speaker 4: that's looked at how when in an emergency situation, if

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Speaker 4: there's somebody that's already intervening, other people will stand by,

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Speaker 4: will be less likely to come forward and help because

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Speaker 4: they think it's dealt with. And it's really challenging because

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Speaker 4: in that kind of circumstance, actually you need all the

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Speaker 4: hands that you can get, right, You need that help

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Speaker 4: and you need that support, and some of it comes

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Speaker 4: from a lack of confidence, I think. And it's interesting,

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Speaker 4: you know, because we almost had kind of the opposite

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Speaker 4: problem in the fire service. So there was one of

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Speaker 4: the things that we introduced when we were doing all

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Speaker 4: of the research and the policy changes on the back

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Speaker 4: of the research was some work around something that we

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Speaker 4: term operational discretion, and that's the flexibility to recognize when

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Speaker 4: a policy doesn't apply that you will actually do what

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Speaker 4: you think needs to be done, used your professional judgment

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Speaker 4: to do whatever you need to do in that circumstance.

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Speaker 4: And there were some incidents, some really high profile incidents

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Speaker 4: that we had in the UK where people had died

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Speaker 4: because people were One of the contributing factors part of me.

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Speaker 4: One of the contributing factors was that everybody was so

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Speaker 4: focused on sticking to the policy that the policy wouldn't

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Speaker 4: have worked for that situation. Sticking to the policy actually

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Speaker 4: made the outcome worse. There was one called there was

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Speaker 4: one in Gosden Mine where a mine shaft had collapsed

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Speaker 4: and a lady had fallen down the mine shaft and

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Speaker 4: was trapped down there for a considerable amount of time,

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Speaker 4: and one of the incident commanders, the fire commanders, wanted

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Speaker 4: to adapt some equipment to be able to get them out,

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Speaker 4: and another disagreed because it was outside of policy and

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Speaker 4: stopped it all and insisted on waiting for the mine rescue,

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Speaker 4: and the woman ended up being trapped down there for

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Speaker 4: so long that one of the contributing factors to her

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Speaker 4: death was hypothermia. Now it would be wrong to say

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Speaker 4: it was solely because of the the delay caused by

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Speaker 4: that or sticking rigidly to the policy, but what was

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Speaker 4: talked about by the judge afterwards when they were looking

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Speaker 4: at her death is that that was one of the

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Speaker 4: inflexibility was one of the contributing factors. So it's funny

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Speaker 4: because if you were not in a uniform, you'd grab

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Speaker 4: whatever you could grab and you would do what you

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Speaker 4: could to try to make it work right. But as

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Speaker 4: soon as you put up that uniform, you have that

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Speaker 4: different responsibility, that different level of accountability, and the judgments

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Speaker 4: I think, and you know, the judgment that you would

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Speaker 4: have after an event once you're wearing that uniform and

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Speaker 4: representing one of the services is far greater than a

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Speaker 4: member of the public would have if they were just

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Speaker 4: trying to do their best to help out. Of the

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Speaker 4: things that we introduced was this concept of operational discretion,

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Speaker 4: where if you recognize that adhering strictly to the policy

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Speaker 4: either is going to make it worse because that happens sometimes,

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Speaker 4: or the policy it's such a novel situation that the

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Speaker 4: policy does apply, then it gives that kind of flexibility

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Speaker 4: to choose what to do in that circumstance. And we

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Speaker 4: did some research on this, and we were looking at

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Speaker 4: the impact of stress and uncertainty on decision making when

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Speaker 4: applying operational discretion. That was our kind of driver for it,

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Speaker 4: and we gave fire commanders two scenarios. One was really

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Speaker 4: straightforward runn of the mail. It was a high rise

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Speaker 4: fire where they knew what to do, they knew what

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Speaker 4: to expect them, was a super superclear policy, no need

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Speaker 4: to deviate. And the other one was similar to this.

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Speaker 4: It was a mind shaft. It had collapsed a sinkhole, sorry,

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Speaker 4: it had collapsed, and there was a group of children

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Speaker 4: stuck at the bottom and it was outside of the

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Speaker 4: reach of their normal equipment. So you would have to

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Speaker 4: use operational discretion. And we took measures of stress as well,

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Speaker 4: and rather than just relying on self report, because you

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Speaker 4: could ask a firefighter with a mushroom cloud behind them

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Speaker 4: how they are and they'd be like, yeah, everything's fine,

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Speaker 4: I got this under control. Even if the heart beating

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Speaker 4: tens of the dozerts. So we took blood samples so

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Speaker 4: that we could measure it was actually a leukocyte response

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Speaker 4: rather than a single measure of quarters are. We were

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Speaker 4: looking more holistically at a range of measures, because when

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Speaker 4: you experience stress, your cells respond differently, and so we

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Speaker 4: looked at at the leukocyte response to give us a

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Speaker 4: better measure. And what we found is the more uncertain

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Speaker 4: the situation, the higher the stress levels. Not surprising there,

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Speaker 4: but the more uncertain the situation and the higher the

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Speaker 4: stress levels, the more certain people were to reach for

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Speaker 4: a set of rules even when they didn't apply. And

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Speaker 4: so this was a really interesting one because we all

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Speaker 4: do this sometimes when we're making a decision under uncertainty

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Speaker 4: or we're not quite sure what to do and it's pressured,

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Speaker 4: and we'll reach for something that might feel familiar because

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Speaker 4: it gives us that sense of security, but it might

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Speaker 4: not actually be the right thing for that set of circumstances.

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Speaker 4: So my advice to people, whether they're in the fire

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Speaker 4: service or not, is if you are making a decision

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Speaker 4: or under the decision under those circumstances and you find

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Speaker 4: yourself reaching for something that makes you feel better, or

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Speaker 4: something that gives you that sense of comfort or something

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Speaker 4: that's familiar to you. Just pause and just double check

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Speaker 4: your assumptions to make sure that it's actually delivering the

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Speaker 4: outcome that you're hoping it's going to deliver.

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Speaker 2: That makes so much sense, And I can understand why

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Speaker 2: people do that, because they're protecting themselves because if this

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Speaker 2: turns out bad, it's not my fault.

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Speaker 1: It's the rules.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly right.

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Speaker 2: And if I kind of be the rebel and it

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Speaker 2: turns out bad, it's my fault, whereas it might have

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Speaker 2: been bad anyway.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's such a litigious society now as well,

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Speaker 4: and you know, you see the way that incidents where

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Speaker 4: people we're not automatons in a uniform. We're human beings.

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Speaker 4: You know, we're real people at the end of the day.

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Speaker 4: And when you see the way that people are judged

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Speaker 4: after an event who might have got it wrong, but

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Speaker 4: they've gone in genuinely wanting to do their best, you know,

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Speaker 4: it could be really difficult then for someone to find

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Speaker 4: the courage to take a leap to do the thing

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Speaker 4: that they think needs to be done without that security

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Speaker 4: of a set of rules to wrap around them. Get it.

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Speaker 2: Now. I know you don't have any spare time because

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Speaker 2: you're an author and you're a mum and you're a

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Speaker 2: dog mum, and you're a wife, and you're a bloody

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Speaker 2: superstar at fifty things, and you're a researcher and you're

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Speaker 2: a fire fighter and you've got a thousand test subjects

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Speaker 2: whenever you want them. But you definitely should have your

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Speaker 2: own podcast.

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Speaker 1: Ah, you'd be so good.

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Speaker 2: Like you're such a brilliant communicator and storyteller, and you

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Speaker 2: you're such a good science communicator too, because you explain

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Speaker 2: complicated stuff in an uncomplicated way or what can be

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Speaker 2: complicated stuff.

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Speaker 1: Because we're a largely.

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Speaker 2: Non academic you know, we've got a percentage of academics

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Speaker 2: that listen, but you know it's not an academic show

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Speaker 2: per se. And so my constant, or my not every episode,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of episodes, I'm trying to figure out,

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Speaker 2: how do we say this, and how do we navigate

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Speaker 2: this conversation and make it you know, interesting, but also

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Speaker 2: really relevant and unders stable so people can do something

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Speaker 2: with it. And you just do that automatically. It's a

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Speaker 2: real gift and a real skill. So well done.

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Speaker 4: You.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing.

436
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 4: Thank you.

437
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 2: Tell me about before we go, tell me about the book.

438
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 2: So your book is called The Heat of the Moment. Yeah,

439
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 2: that's right to tell us about that, did you?

440
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 1: Is that your one and only book?

441
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 4: I've got another one coming out in March. But the

442
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 4: Heat of the Moment I wanted to take something that

443
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 4: would talk about the way that we make decisions under pressure,

444
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,719
Speaker 4: because it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, you know,

445
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 4: our brains are going to work in a similar way.

446
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 4: So I took everything that we'd learned from more than

447
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 4: twenty years of firefighting and more than a decade of

448
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 4: research about how we make decisions in the heat of

449
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 4: the moment, when we're experiencing pressure, and I wanted to

450
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 4: talk about it in a way that could be then

451
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 4: applied to everyday life. So each chapter talks about a

452
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 4: specific aspect of decision making with it gut decision making,

453
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 4: whether it's you know, the way that you develop your

454
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,959
Speaker 4: situational awareness, whether it's the way that you communicate all

455
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 4: of these concepts. And it opens with an incident that

456
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 4: I've been to and so that you can see that

457
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 4: part of that aspect of how your brain is working

458
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 4: actually kind of at a real life incident in reality,

459
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,959
Speaker 4: and then I unpick the research that's relevant to it,

460
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 4: and then I kind of talk about how it applies

461
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 4: to everyday life as well. So, yeah, that was a

462
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 4: real That was a real labor of love to write.

463
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 4: It was a real joy. Actually, it's just nice to

464
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 4: be able to share what we've done with the broad

465
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 4: or audience because I think, you know, there are some

466
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 4: really important lessons that we've learned in the fire service,

467
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 4: and they've been learned through a lot of pain, as

468
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 4: I described earlier on. And so isn't it great that

469
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 4: you can share that with as many people as possible

470
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 4: and not just limit it to those that were the

471
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 4: same color perform as.

472
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 2: You do you think that being able to self rid

473
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: in the middle of the mayhem and you know, make

474
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 2: decisions and stay relatively calm. Do you think that we

475
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 2: spoke about it a little bit before, but do you

476
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 2: think that is more innate? Like I feel like there

477
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: are people that are just better than that. And also

478
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: my part B of that question is are people more

479
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: anxious now than.

480
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: Thirty years ago? Or we just more aware of anxiety?

481
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 4: Sabrina, Really good question. I think that it's I think

482
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 4: that it's a mixture of nature and nurture every every

483
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 4: single time. And I think that it can be developed

484
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 4: as well of what you expose yourself to and how

485
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 4: you respond to that exposure and how willing you are

486
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 4: to put yourself in those uncomfortable situations like we talked about.

487
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 4: And the anxiety question is a really good one. I

488
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 4: think that I don't think people are more anxious than

489
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 4: they are today than they were before. I think they

490
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 4: just weren't allowed to show it before because of the

491
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 4: societal pressures that people were experiencing. I think the world

492
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 4: was super different, wasn't it. So I think there's that element.

493
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 4: I mean, there are things that make us feel anxious

494
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 4: today that weren't around before. Exposure or social media, I

495
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 4: think is a key one. I mean, I can have

496
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 4: firefighters at a job and the job will be uploaded

497
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 4: onto YouTube by someone with their camera phone before they've

498
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 4: even packed up and left the scene. You know, so

499
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 4: previously it would never be like that. You never had

500
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 4: to kind of worry about those kind of things. So

501
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 4: I think my point is if someone does make a mistake,

502
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 4: it's usually recorded and there forever and You've seen the

503
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 4: way that people respond publicly to people who've made mistakes,

504
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 4: and it's kind of huge debate, isn't there around cancel

505
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 4: culture and things like that? So I think there is.

506
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 4: I think whilst judgments would have been the same across

507
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 4: the ages, I think that they are a lot more

508
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 4: public now than they perhaps were previously. So it's really difficult,

509
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 4: isn't it to compare times to say whether people were

510
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 4: more anxious thirty years ago or whether they're more anxious today,

511
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 4: because I think the context is so different that it's

512
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,719
Speaker 4: really tricky to kind of weigh everything up and go

513
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 4: one or the other. But I certainly think that there

514
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 4: are things today that can make you feel anxious that

515
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 4: you didn't have thirty years ago. I think we have

516
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 4: the luxury today of being able to be really open

517
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 4: about being anxious, which means you can deal with it

518
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 4: better than you might have been able to do thirty

519
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 4: years ago. So there's definitely a silver lining there.

520
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: All Right, We've got to go, because I feel like

521
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 2: I'm dragging you you on, but I'm so interested in

522
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,479
Speaker 2: your stuff. I want to ask you two quick questions

523
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 2: and I'm promise we'll go. So Number one is, so

524
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: you're all about excellence, high performance, performing under pressure, you know,

525
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 2: being the best you can be. And are there any

526
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: other fire serve around the world that you look at

527
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 2: in any country or it might just anywhere in the

528
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 2: world where you go, they're.

529
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: The best, They are amazing for these reasons.

530
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 4: Oh, I think that's a great question. And I think

531
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 4: there are different fire services that are really excellent at

532
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 4: different things. And sometimes you have the persona of the

533
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 4: biggest and the best, and you hear about, you know,

534
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 4: the great ones around the world and things I won't

535
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 4: mention any names, but when you actually scratch the surface,

536
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 4: they don't always turn out to be as shiny as

537
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 4: you might have thought they were outside. So I think

538
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 4: there's real value if you are looking for the best,

539
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 4: in looking really specifically at what you want to see

540
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 4: the best of and not stopping until you've turned over

541
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 4: for all the stones that you can to find it,

542
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 4: because the places that you might find it might just

543
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 4: surprise you.

544
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: And do you do you ever look across the pond

545
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: with any curiosity on our Australian summers with the bloody

546
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: bushfires that we we seem to be having more and

547
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: more of that have been devastating in the last few

548
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: years Oiver here.

549
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, they have been utterly devastating, and your first responders

550
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 4: I have a huge amount of admiration for the way

551
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 4: that they've tackled them, because those kind of incidents are relentless.

552
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 4: They're not the kind of incidence that you go to

553
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 4: and a couple of hours later you're back at the

554
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 4: station and its job and not you know, it's all finished.

555
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 4: Is day after day, week after week with those kind

556
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 4: of incidents, and they are exhausting. So your first responders,

557
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 4: I have to say, I think are exemplary in the

558
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 4: way that they have They've dealt with that and shown

559
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 4: incredible resilience and courage in the face of doing so,

560
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 4: as have been your communities actually who I've seen a

561
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 4: huge amount of resilience from having gone through those incidents

562
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 4: and they are utterly devastating. And one of the things

563
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 4: that we are thinking about more and more now as

564
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 4: fire services is the impact of climate change on weather

565
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 4: related incidents. You know, we've been having some awful wildfires

566
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 4: here in the UK, not like not to the extent

567
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 4: that you do in Australia, because our demography is very different,

568
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 4: you know, we don't have the same kind of forested

569
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 4: areas that you do there and the expanse that you

570
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 4: do there, but they have been devastating for the wildlife

571
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 4: that we do have here, and they're happening more and

572
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,719
Speaker 4: more regularly. Same with flooding. So actually thinking about what

573
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 4: we can do to prevent those happening in the first place,

574
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 4: to really get ahead of that is something that's super

575
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 4: important to us, and we're doing a lot of work

576
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 4: at the moment in my own fire department looking at

577
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 4: how we can kind of improve the work that we

578
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 4: do in rural communities to stop those kind of incidents

579
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 4: happening in the first place.

580
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

581
00:30:54,240 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: Perfect, well, Sabrina, you're fascinating, you're Grey communicator. We appreciate

582
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: you having a chat with us on the You project.

583
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: Thank you, and I want you to come back when

584
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: your new books out so we can talk about that

585
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: and stell lots of books for you.

586
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 4: Is that all right, my pleasure? It would be great,

587
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 4: And it's been an absolute joy to speak to you today,

588
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 4: So thank you so much for having me.

589
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure, Melissa, do you like Sabrina.

590
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 4: Oh, of course, thank you so much for spending all

591
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 4: this time with us.

592
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 3: What a privilege to listen to your story.

593
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 4: And yeah, I've just been sitting here and all, so

594
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 4: thank you very much.

595
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: Are you crushing hard just a little bit?

596
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: And I can tell. I can tell because you get

597
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: that goofy. I love her look on your face. Hey, Sabrina,

598
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,479
Speaker 2: stay there. We'll say goodbye off air, but thank you

599
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 2: so much, and thanks everyone.

600
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: We appreciate you.