1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: Good a team. This is part two of the conversation 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: we started yesterday with Sabrina. I hope you're enjoying it. 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: I won't get in the way of what is to 4 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: come enjoy see you at the end. Does that mean 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: Sabrina your honor doctor? Does that mean that? Like my 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: thinking is generally like when I would like I've worked 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: with first responders over here, with Victoria police and with 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: the military a little bit, and with lots of elite athletes. 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: And we just did a big study out of Monash 10 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: where I study which I had my first academic paper published, 11 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: which is hilarious, which is hilarious. Hang on because there's 12 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: like fifty authors, so I really don't deserve any credit whatsoever, 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: but my name is on it. What I wanted to 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: say was generally speaking, we train a soldiers and police, 15 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: especially special operators like in Victoria they call it Special 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: Operations Group, they call them soggies, and you know the 17 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: elite soldiers where they do a lot of like intense 18 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: high level, high pressure, uncomfortable like they just get put 19 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: through the grind. It's it's as it's as as realistic 20 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: as it can be without it being real. Is there 21 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: a similar approach to train firefighters to be able to 22 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: deal with that, because you can't perform under pressure if 23 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: you're never under pressure. 24 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally agree. I totally agree. And if you are 25 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: just going through the motions. I mean, there's an element 26 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: where you can do that for skills development, right where 27 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 2: you're learning a skill and you're doing it slow time 28 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 2: and then you get better at it. But unless you're 29 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: actually testing that skill under pressure, actually, how do you 30 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: know that you're going to be able to use it 31 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: when you need to use it, because, by the way, 32 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: that time is going to be under intense pressure, both 33 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: in terms of the pressure of the environment, the moral 34 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: pressure that you're under from people who are watching on 35 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: the people that you might be trying to rescue, and 36 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: experiencing someone else. You know, when someone else is in 37 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: pain or someone else has just experienced the death of 38 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: someone that they love literally next to them in a 39 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: car or in a house that you've managed to rescue 40 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: one from, and someone else, there is nothing that prepares 41 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: you for the emotion that you hear in that person's 42 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: There is nothing that prepares you for that. But you 43 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: have to carry on. You have to be able to 44 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: do what you need to do. And I'm particularly interested 45 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: in non technical skills. In the UK, we term them 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: command skills, so your ability to make decisions, your situational awareness, 47 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: your communication skills, your leadership skills, your ability to work 48 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: as a part of a team. You know, all of 49 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: these things are skills. They're not you know, they're not. 50 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: They're not some kind of higher gift that you get 51 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: that you know you're kind of born with. If you're 52 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: either a great decision maker or you're not, you've got 53 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: to work at it. And working at it means doing 54 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: it in the kind of environment that you're readily going 55 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: to expect to use it in, and in our world, 56 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: that means that it's going to be emotionally charged, dynamically changing, 57 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: with little or incomplete information, sometimes inaccurate information, and it's 58 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: really tough. And it's a bit like swimming. If you 59 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: wanted to swim the length of the channel or swim 60 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 2: in the sea, but you only ever trained in an 61 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: Olympic sized swimming pool. You know what, you might be 62 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: the fastest, the best, that you might have the greatest 63 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: endurance in a pool, but as soon as you get 64 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: out in the sea, even though it's the same skill, 65 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: the context is so different, the application changes, and so 66 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: you're not going to be able to do it in 67 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: the same way. And those kind of non technical skills, 68 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: the development of those are similar. So whatever technical skill 69 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: you might be doing under pressure, it is determined by 70 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: your non technical skills. Your ability to make a judgment 71 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: on when that needs to applied or how that needs 72 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: to be applied, Your ability to communicate your intentions, your 73 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: ability to absorb the information from around you that you 74 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: need to create, your situational awareness, your mental picture, that 75 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: which is the basis of every single decision and every 76 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: single judgment that you make. That is tough, and if 77 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 2: you want to do that under pressure, we need to 78 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: recognize that stress affects the processing capacity that you have available. 79 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 2: It reduces it, so you have less processing capacity available 80 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: to absorb that information. You have less processing capacity available 81 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: to make a decision, You have less processing capacity available 82 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 2: to think about the message that you're trying to communicate 83 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: and whether or not that meaning has landed in the 84 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: way that you intended it to land. These are all 85 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: really important factors for the success of the overarching incident 86 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: because it's complex. So if you want those to work effectively. 87 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: You have to train them under pressure. Is no good 88 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 2: just doing it in slow time. You have to train 89 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: under pressure, and so making people feel uncomfortable by putting 90 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 2: if you're doing a command atercise, for example, by throwing 91 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 2: lots of injects in so you don't have time to 92 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: think about something, you don't have the luxury of being 93 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: able to hold lots of things together in your mind 94 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: at one point. It creates that sense of pressure where 95 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: you then have to prioritize your activity. And actually, even 96 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 2: if in real time the situation might not be like that, 97 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 2: for you know, the full duration of the hour that 98 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: your command exercise is, actually you're compressing it, and so 99 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: what you get is like really deep practice. If you've 100 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: heard the term deep practice, it's what you're kind of synthesizing, 101 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: and it's about feeling uncomfortable. It's about doing things wrong 102 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 2: and then repeating them in a different way so that 103 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: you can do it better next time. But creating that 104 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: sense of pressure in whatever way you can do it 105 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 2: is super important. I'm a really big fan of realistic exercises. 106 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 2: I know they're super expensive to do. I know it's hard, 107 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 2: especially when you get places like I mean In the 108 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 2: UK we have the Casualties Union, who are an amazing 109 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 2: group of people, many of whom are amputees who've been 110 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: through traumatic incidents themselves, who will come in and role 111 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: play that they have incredible makeup on to simulate, to 112 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: simulate traumatic injuries, and they respond in a way that 113 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 2: is really realistic. And these people are incredible because bear 114 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: in mind they've had their own traumas. To come in 115 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: and to be able to do that those experiences to 116 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: help develop the people that they know other people will 117 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: rely on in the future to go and rescue them 118 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 2: from similar circumstances is a level of courage that to 119 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: me is absolutely god worthy. It is awesome. But that 120 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: kind of realistic opportunity is worth waiting gold, absolutely worth 121 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: its weight in gold. But whatever you're doing when you're training, 122 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: don't just go through the motions. Don't just go to 123 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: get through the end of the exercise. Make it count. 124 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: You can never train too hard for a job where 125 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 2: you know people die. 126 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: I love that and it's so like I always you know, 127 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: I use this analogy of white belt to black belt 128 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: and I say, you know, the way that you become 129 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: a black belt in any martial art is. You start 130 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: as a white belt, you get punched in the face, 131 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: you get kicked in the deck, you get choked. You know, 132 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: this is what happens. You know, you get beaten up, 133 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: and then eventually you're a yellow, then eventually a green, 134 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: and a brown, and a purple and a blue, and 135 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: then whatever the system is, you know, and then one 136 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: day you wake up. You're the same person with the 137 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: same potential and the same genetics, but now you've got 138 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: new skills, new awareness, new resilience, new understanding, new insight. 139 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: Same human but not really. And now you've got that 140 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: you can perform under a level of pressure that you 141 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: couldn't even think about when you're a white belt, because 142 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: you didn't know what you were doing. You couldn't be calm, 143 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: you didn't know how to self regulate. And now five six, seven, eight, 144 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: ten years down the track, you've got this high level 145 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: of ability and skill to be able to do this 146 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: thing that most people can't. And it's because you did 147 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: the work, and it's because you weren't fucking around. It's 148 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: because you had five dislocated elbows and these, it's because 149 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: you've got a thousand black eyes, it's because you've got 150 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: choked fifty times. It's like that's you can't get good 151 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: at the thing that you're not doing. You can't master 152 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: the thing that you avoid. And you can read about 153 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: it and hear about it and watch fucking videos on 154 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: it and listen to lectures about it, but unless you're 155 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: actually doing it, like unless you're actually at the coal face, 156 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: rolling up your sleeves and doing the shit or a 157 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: version of it, then when the storm cometh, Brothers and Sisters, 158 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: you capitulate. You know, We've had lots of people and 159 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: speaking to that, just as an example, we've had people 160 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: on the show and I can't say who, but it 161 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Well, no, I can't say who. But even 162 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: something like this where people can obviously, you know, they've 163 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: got their expertise like you, they've got skill knowledge, you know, 164 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: all of that. They can communicate and sometimes they've written 165 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: a book and you know, some whatever. But then you 166 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: put them on either I used to work in radio 167 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: as well, and so you put them in a radio 168 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: interview or on an interview with this where you say, 169 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: you know, you give them a backstory of you know, 170 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: how many people listen and what we do and and 171 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: all of a sudden and we're live. That person goes 172 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: from being interesting and funny and articulate too. Yes, no, no, yeah, 173 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, fucking hell, somebody just removed his personality in 174 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: the last thirteen seconds. And it's just it's terrible because 175 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: to them, there's when you say, I used to say 176 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: to people, there's only twenty thousand people, don't you know listening, 177 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: don't worry, And I would say that to fuck around. 178 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: I don't say it anymore or how I can say 179 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: it to you because you do this all the time. 180 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: But like and then people, especially if you're thinking of 181 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: a stadium of humans or something, but something that they 182 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: do all the time, which is talk and share and educate, 183 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: now you're doing it in a different context and they 184 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: can't string three words together because there's a level, a 185 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: self created level of pressure. Yeah, and maybe I influenced 186 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: that a little bit. 187 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: It's true though, And it's you know, it's really similar 188 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: when you think about things like, you know, even a 189 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: job interview or a presentation. How many times when you've 190 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: got a big presentation of you kind of practiced that 191 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 2: in front of a plant pot or in front of 192 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: the dog. Well, guess what the dog's never going to 193 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: troll you on Twitter. 194 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 3: It's a safe environment. You know, You've got to do 195 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 3: it in front of people that make you feel uncomfortable, 196 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 3: because when you step in to do that presentation or 197 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 3: that job interview, you're going to be running on adrenaline. 198 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 3: You're going to feel anxious, you're going to feel uncomfortable. 199 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 3: So you need to know that you can do it 200 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 3: despite that feeling. You need to know that you've practiced 201 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 3: it in that kind of envirovement. You need to know 202 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 3: the places that your head is going to go black, 203 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 3: where you're going to stumble, so then you can go 204 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 3: and focus on those bits and make sure you know 205 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: it better. 206 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: You know that for me, it's a gift. It's an 207 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: absolute gift to have an opportunity to practice something before 208 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: you go in and before you do it, and to 209 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: develop those skills. And if it means, you know, you 210 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, it means you mess something up, or it 211 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: means you feel a bit silly, well, you know what, 212 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 2: that's a really small price to pay for all of 213 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: the good stuff that could come out of you being 214 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: successful at this, you know, and in my world that 215 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: means people walk away, They get to go back to 216 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 2: their families. At the end of the day. There's not 217 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: this great, big void left by someone that's no longer 218 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 2: walking this planet. What a gift, What a gift. 219 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, and I know you've got 220 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: to go. We'll talk about your book in a moment. 221 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: But a couple of years ago, Sabrina, that's actually it 222 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: was it three years ago, the Crab. Yeah, three yeah, 223 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: So I was you know, I think I told you 224 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: before we went live. I've been training my whole life. 225 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: I owned gyms all that, so go to the gym 226 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: every day and just left. Shit, I'm not very good anymore. 227 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: I'm old, I'm a bit fucked. But anyway, I still 228 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: go down, you know, sit on a dumbbell. But anyway, 229 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: The Crab my training partner, Mark, who I lovingly call 230 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: the Crab because he moves like a crab. He's like 231 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: a large crustacean with biceps. But anyway, so we were 232 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: training and he did a set of chin ups, held 233 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: his breath the whole time. Sabrina did thirty chin ups, 234 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: not an exaggeration. X pro body built, a very strong, 235 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: very big all of that did thirty chins came down 236 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: and went to his hands and knees, and I thought 237 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: he was having a seizure, and he had a cardiac 238 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: arrest and died in the gym, on the gym floor. 239 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: So he came back to life, I need say quickly, 240 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: but he was dead for seventeen minutes. And and talk 241 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: about you know, people under pressure, I would say there was. 242 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: There's probably twenty people in the gym, but in him 243 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: because there's there's levels to the gym. But within a 244 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: couple of minutes there were thirty or forty people in 245 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: the gym, and so i'd you know, his big unit 246 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: is one hundred kilos, which I don't know what that 247 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: is in stone, seventeen stone maybe, So I, you know, 248 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: I got him on his back, I got him into 249 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: a position where I could work on him, and I 250 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: did that like as soon as I realized what had happened, 251 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: which was quite quickly. So I started working on him 252 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: by myself. Now thirty people were standing on the other 253 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: side of the gym, not one thing like looking terrified. 254 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: Not one person went what can I do? Ye, not 255 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: one person said can I help? And so I just 256 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: looked up and said I need somebody, and they all 257 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: stood there like nobody came, and so here's here's my 258 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: friend on the floor. I'm doing the compressions and the breaths. 259 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: I'm so I'm alternating, and I'm you know, I'm busy. 260 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: I got shipped on and I look up and nobody 261 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: moved forward. Nobody came. They all just stood there looking terrified. 262 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: And then this one bloke kind of looked semi like 263 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: like he was thinking about it. And I said, what's 264 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: your name? And he said his name? And I said, 265 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: let's just go, Steve, and I said, Steven, get the 266 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: fuck over here. He's like, I don't know what to do. 267 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: I go get the fuck over here. I'll tell you 268 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: what to do, right and that that but that a maze, 269 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: Well that was messy, and that was you know, like 270 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: a daunting scenario, of course, but I was upon reflection later, 271 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: I was amazed at how I don't know if nobody 272 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: knew what to do, but nobody, nobody came forward. Like 273 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: I literally had to swear at someone to get someone 274 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: to help me. And that's, you know, because who's standing 275 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: next to someone when they die. Very few people, you know, 276 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: not in not where we live anyway, you know. And 277 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: then so you're right, people just don't know what to do. Yeah, 278 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: and normally comfortable, competent, you know, pretty adaptable, flexible people 279 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: fucking freeze in certain circumstances. 280 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: Do you know. Well, firstly, I'm really sorry that you 281 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 2: had that experience, but also you are incredible because you 282 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: have literally saved Mark's life there in that in that scenario. 283 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: So he's alive because of the intervention that you made, 284 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: and that's that's pretty incredible and definitely something worth recognizing. 285 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: But it's it's funny how other people respond in a 286 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 2: situation where they feel deeply uncomfortable. There's been some really 287 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: interesting research that's looked at how when in an emergency situation, 288 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: if there's somebody that's already intervening, other people will stand by, 289 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: will be less likely to come forward and help because 290 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 2: they think it's dealt with. And it's really challenging because 291 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 2: in that kind of circumstance, actually you need all the 292 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: hands that you can get right, You need that help 293 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 2: and you need that support, and some of it comes 294 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 2: from a lack of confidence, I think. And it's interesting, 295 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 2: you know, because we almost had kind of the opposite 296 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: problem in the fire service. So there was One of 297 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: the things that we introduced when we were doing all 298 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: of the research and the policy changes on the back 299 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: of the research was some work around something that we 300 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 2: term operational discretion, and that's the flexibility to recognize when 301 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: a policy doesn't apply that you will actually do what 302 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: you think needs to be done, used your professional judgment 303 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 2: to do whatever you need to do in that circumstance. 304 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: And there were some incidents, some really high profile incidents 305 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 2: that we had in the UK where people had died 306 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 2: because people were One of the contributing factors part of 307 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: me one of the contributing factors was that everybody was 308 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: so focused on sticking to the policy that the policy 309 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 2: wouldn't have worked for that situation. Sticking to the policy 310 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: actually made the outcome worse. There was one called there 311 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 2: was one in Gosden Mine where a mine shaft had 312 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: collapsed and a lady had fallen down the mine shaft 313 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: and was trapped down there for a considerable amount of time, 314 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 2: and one of the incident commanders, the fire commanders, wanted 315 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 2: to adapt some equipment to be able to get them out, 316 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: and another disagreed because it was outside of policy and 317 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: stopped it all and insisted on waiting for the mine rescue, 318 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 2: and the woman ended up being trapped down there for 319 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: so long that one of the contributing factors to her 320 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 2: death was hypothermia. Now it would be wrong to say 321 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 2: it was solely because of the the delay caused by 322 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 2: that or sticking rigidly to the policy, but what was 323 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: talked about by the judge afterwards when they were looking 324 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 2: at her death is that that was one of the 325 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 2: inflexibility was one of the contributing factors. So it's funny 326 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 2: because if you were not in a uniform, you'd grab 327 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: whatever you could grab and you would do what you 328 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,719 Speaker 2: could to try to make it work right. But as 329 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: soon as you put up that uniform, you have that 330 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 2: different responsibility, that different level of accountability, and the judgments 331 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: I think, and you know, the judgment that you would 332 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 2: have after an event once you're wearing that uniform and 333 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: representing one of the services is far greater than a 334 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 2: member of the public would have if they were just 335 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 2: trying to do their best to help out. Of the 336 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: things that we introduced was this concept of operational discretion, 337 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: where if you recognize that adhering strictly to the policy 338 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 2: either is going to make it worse because that happens sometimes, 339 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 2: or the policy it's such a novel situation that the 340 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 2: policy does apply, then it gives that kind of flexibility 341 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 2: to choose what to do in that circumstance. And we 342 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 2: did some research on this and we were looking at 343 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: the impact of stress and uncertainty on decision making when 344 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: applying operational discretion. That was our kind of driver for it, 345 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 2: and we gave fire commanders two scenarios. One was really 346 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 2: straightforward runner the mail. It was a high rise fire 347 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: where they knew what to do, they knew what to 348 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 2: expect them, was a super superclear policy, no need to deviate. 349 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 2: And the other one was similar to this. It was 350 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 2: a mind shaft. It had collapsed a sinkhole, sorry, it 351 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 2: had collapsed, and there was a group of children stuck 352 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: at the bottom and it was outside of the reach 353 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: of their normal equipment, so you would have to use 354 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 2: operational discretion. And we took measures of stress as well, 355 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 2: and rather than just relying on self report, because you 356 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: could ask a firefighter with a mushroom cloud behind them 357 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 2: how they are and they'd be like, yeah, everything's fine, 358 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 2: I got this under control. Even if the heart beating 359 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,719 Speaker 2: tens of the deserts. So we took blood samples so 360 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 2: that we could measure it was actually a leukocyte response 361 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: rather than a single measure of quarters are. We were 362 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: looking more holistically at a range of measures, because when 363 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 2: you experience stress, your cells respond differently, and so we 364 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 2: looked at at the leukocyte response to give us a 365 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: better measure. And what we found is the more uncertain 366 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: the situation, the higher the stress levels. Not surprising there, 367 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 2: but the more uncertain the situation and the higher the 368 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 2: stress levels, the more certain people were to reach for 369 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 2: a set of rules even when they didn't apply. And 370 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 2: so this was a really interesting one because we all 371 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 2: do this sometimes when we're making a decision under uncertainty 372 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: or we're not quite sure what to do and it's pressured, 373 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 2: and we'll reach for something that might feel familiar because 374 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 2: it gives us that sense of security, but it might 375 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 2: not actually be the right thing for that set of circumstances. 376 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: So my advice to people, whether they're in the fire 377 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: service or not, is if you are making a decision 378 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: or under the decision under those circumstances and you find 379 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: yourself reaching for something that makes you feel better, or 380 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 2: something that gives you that sense of comfort or something 381 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 2: that's familiar to you. Just pause and just double check 382 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 2: your assumptions to make sure that it's actually delivering the 383 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: outcome that you're hoping it's going to deliver. 384 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: That makes so much sense, And I can understand why 385 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: people do that, because they're protecting themselves because if this 386 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: turns out bad, it's not my fault. It's the rules. 387 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. 388 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: And if I kind of be the rebel and it 389 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: turns out bad, it's my fault, whereas it might have 390 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: been bad anyway. 391 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 2: You know, it's such a litigious society now as well, 392 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 2: and you know, you see the way that incidents where 393 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 2: people we're not automatons in a uniform. We're human beings. 394 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 2: You know, we're real people at the end of the day. 395 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 2: And when you see the way that people are judged 396 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 2: after an event who might have got it wrong, but 397 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 2: they've gone in genuinely wanting to do their best, you know, 398 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 2: it could be really difficult then for someone to find 399 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: the courage to take a leap to do the thing 400 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: that they think needs to be done without that security 401 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 2: of a set of rules to wrap around them get it. 402 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: Now. I know you don't have any spare time because 403 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: you're an author and you're a mum and you're a 404 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: dog mum, and you're a wife, and you're a bloody 405 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: superstar at fifty things, and you're a researcher and you're 406 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: a fire fighter and you've got a thousand test subjects 407 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: whenever you want them. But you definitely should have your 408 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: own podcast. Ah, you'd be so good. Like you're such 409 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: a brilliant communicator and storyteller, and you you're such a 410 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: good science communicator too, because you explain complicated stuff in 411 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: an uncomplicated way or what can be complicated stuff. Because 412 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: we're a largely non academic you know, we've got a 413 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: percentage of academics that listen, but you know it's not 414 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: an academic show per se. And so my constant, or 415 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: my not every episode, but a lot of episodes, I'm 416 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: trying to figure out, how do we say this, and 417 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: how do we navigate this conversation and make it you know, interesting, 418 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: but also really relevant and unders stable so people can 419 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 1: do something with it. And you just do that automatically. 420 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 1: It's a real gift and a real skill. So well done. 421 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: You it's amazing. 422 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: Thank you. 423 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: Tell me about before we go, tell me about the book. 424 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: So your book is called The Heat of the Moment. Yeah, 425 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: that's right to tell us about that, did you? Is 426 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: that your one and only book? 427 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 2: I've got another one coming out in March. But the 428 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 2: Heat of the Moment I wanted to take something that 429 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 2: would talk about the way that we make decisions under pressure, 430 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,719 Speaker 2: because it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, you know, 431 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 2: our brains are going to work in a similar way. 432 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: So I took everything that we'd learned from more than 433 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 2: twenty years of firefighting and more than a decade of 434 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: research about how we make decisions in the heat of 435 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 2: the moment, when we're experiencing pressure, and I wanted to 436 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 2: talk about it in a way that could be then 437 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: applied to everyday life. So each chapter talks about a 438 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 2: specific aspect of decision making with it gut decision making, 439 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: whether it's you know, the way that you develop your 440 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,959 Speaker 2: situational awareness, whether it's the way that you communicate all 441 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: of these concepts. And it opens with an incident that 442 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: I've been to and so that you can see that 443 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: part of that aspect of how your brain is working 444 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: actually kind of at a real life incident in reality, 445 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,959 Speaker 2: and then I unpick the research that's relevant to it, 446 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 2: and then I kind of talk about how it applies 447 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 2: to everyday life as well. So, yeah, that was a 448 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: real That was a real labor of love to write. 449 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 2: It was a real joy. Actually, it's just nice to 450 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 2: be able to share what we've done with the broad 451 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 2: or audience because I think, you know, there are some 452 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 2: really important lessons that we've learned in the fire service, 453 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: and they've been learned through a lot of pain, as 454 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: I described earlier on, and so isn't it great that 455 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: you can share that with as many people as possible 456 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: and not just limit it to those that were the 457 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 2: same color perform as you? 458 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: Do you think that being able to self rid in 459 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: the middle of the mayhem and you know, make decisions 460 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: and stay relatively calm. Do you think that we spoke 461 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: about it a little bit before, but do you think 462 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: that is more innate? Like I feel like there are 463 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: people that are just better than that. And also my 464 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: part B of that question is are people more anxious 465 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,479 Speaker 1: now than thirty years ago? Or we just more aware 466 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: of anxiety? Sabrina. 467 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: Really good question, I think that it's I think that 468 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 2: it's a mixture of nature and nurture every every single time, 469 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: And I think that it can be developed as well 470 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 2: of what you expose yourself to and how you respond 471 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: to that exposure and how willing you are to put 472 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: yourself in those uncomfortable situations like we talked about. And 473 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 2: the anxiety question is a really good one. I think 474 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: that I don't think people are more anxious than they 475 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 2: are today than they were before. I think they just 476 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: weren't allowed to show it before because of the societal 477 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 2: pressures that people were experiencing. I think the world was 478 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: super different, wasn't it. So I think there's that element. 479 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 2: I mean, there are things that make us feel anxious 480 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 2: today that weren't around before. Exposure or social media, I 481 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 2: think is a key one. I mean, I can have 482 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 2: firefighters at a job and the job will be uploaded 483 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: onto YouTube by someone with their camera phone before they've 484 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: even packed up and left the scene. You know, so 485 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: previously it would never be like that. You never had 486 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,719 Speaker 2: to kind of worry about those kind of things. So 487 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: I think my point is if someone does make a mistake, 488 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 2: it's usually recorded and there forever, and you've seen the 489 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 2: way that people respond publicly to people who've made mistakes, 490 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 2: and it's kind of huge debate, isn't there around cancel 491 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 2: culture and things like that? So I think there is. 492 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 2: I think whilst judgments would have been the same across 493 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 2: the ages, I think that they are a lot more 494 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 2: public now than they perhaps were previously. So it's really difficult, 495 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 2: isn't it to compare times to say whether people were 496 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 2: more anxious thirty years ago or whether they're more anxious today, 497 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 2: because I think the context is so different that it's 498 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 2: really tricky to kind of weigh everything up and go 499 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 2: one or the other. But I certainly think that there 500 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: are things today that can make you feel anxious that 501 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: you didn't have thirty years ago. I think we have 502 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: the luxury today of being able to be really open 503 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,959 Speaker 2: about being anxious, which means you can deal with it 504 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: better than you might have been able to do thirty 505 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 2: years ago. So there's definitely a silver lining there. 506 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: All Right, We've got to go, because I feel like 507 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: I'm dragging you you on, but I'm so interested in 508 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,479 Speaker 1: your stuff. I want to ask you two quick questions 509 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: and I'm promise we'll go. So Number one is so 510 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: you're all about excellence, high performance, performing under pressure, you know, 511 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: being the best you can be. And are there any 512 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: other fire serve around the world that you look at 513 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: in any country or it might just anywhere in the 514 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: world where you go, they're the best, they are amazing 515 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: for these reasons. 516 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: Oh, I think that's a great question. And I think 517 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 2: there are different fire services that are really excellent at 518 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: different things. And sometimes you have the persona of the 519 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 2: biggest and the best, and you hear about, you know, 520 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 2: the great ones around the world and things. I won't 521 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: mention any names, but when you actually scratch the surface, 522 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: they don't always turn out to be as shiny as 523 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 2: you might have thought they were outside. So I think 524 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: there's real value if you are looking for the best, 525 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 2: in looking really specifically at what you want to see 526 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: the best of and not stopping until you've turned over 527 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 2: for all the stones that you can to find it, 528 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: because the places that you might find it might just 529 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: surprise you. 530 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: And do you do you ever look across the pond 531 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: with any curiosity on our Australian summers with the bloody 532 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: bushfires that we we seem to be having more and 533 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: more of that have been devastating in the last few 534 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: years over here. 535 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, they have been utterly devastating, and your first responders 536 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 2: I have a huge amount of admiration for the way 537 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 2: that they've tackled them, because those kind of incidents are relentless. 538 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: They're not the kind of incidence that you go to 539 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: and a couple of hours later you're back at the 540 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: station and its job and not you know, it's all finished. 541 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: Is day after day, week after week with those kind 542 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 2: of incidents, and they are exhausting. So your first responders, 543 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 2: I have to say, I think are exemplary in the 544 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 2: way that they have They've dealt with that and shown 545 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,479 Speaker 2: incredible resilience and courage in the face of doing so, 546 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 2: as have been your communities actually who I've seen a 547 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 2: huge amount of resilience from having gone through those incidents 548 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: and they are utterly devastating. And one of the things 549 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 2: that we are thinking about more and more now as 550 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 2: fire services is the impact of climate change on weather 551 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 2: related incidents. You know, we've been having some awful wildfires 552 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 2: here in the UK, not like not to the extent 553 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 2: that you do in Australia, because our demography is very different. 554 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 2: You know, we don't have the same kind of forested 555 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 2: areas that you do there and the expanse that you 556 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: do there, but they have been devastating for the wildlife 557 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 2: that we do have here, and they're happening more and 558 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,719 Speaker 2: more regularly. Same with flooding. So actually thinking about what 559 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: we can do to prevent those happening in the first place, 560 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: to really get ahead of that is something that's super 561 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: important to us, and we're doing a lot of work 562 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: at the moment in my own fire department looking at 563 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: how we can kind of improve the work that we 564 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 2: do in rural communities to stop those kind of incidents 565 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 2: happening in the first place. 566 00:30:53,960 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Perfect, Well, Sabrina, you're fascinating, you're grey communicator. We 567 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: appreciate you having a chat with us on the You project. 568 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: Thank you, and I want you to come back when 569 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: your new books out so we can talk about that 570 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: and stell lots of books for you. 571 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: Is that all right, my pleasure? It would be great. 572 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 2: And it's been an absolute joy to speak to you today, 573 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: So thank you so much for having me. 574 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure, Melissa, do you like Sabrina? 575 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 2: Oh, of course, thank you so much for spending all 576 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 2: this time with us. 577 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: What a privilege to listen to your story. 578 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: And yeah, I've just been sitting here and all, so 579 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: thank you very much. 580 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: Are you crushing hard just a little bit? And I 581 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: can tell. I can tell because you get that goofy. 582 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: I love her look on your face. Hey, Sabrina, stay there. 583 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: We'll say goodbye off air, but thank you so much, 584 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: and thanks everyone. We appreciate you.