Speaker 1: From Swartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.
Speaker 1: For decades, Australian governments have followed a bipartisan rule stick
Speaker 1: close to the United States, but this week Prime Minister
Speaker 1: Anthony Alberzi appeared to break from that tradition, rejecting pressure
Speaker 1: from Washington, standing firm on defense spending in light of
Speaker 1: a demand to newly double it, and was vocal in
Speaker 1: his criticisms of Trump's tariffs from steel and aluminum. It's
Speaker 1: a shift that signals a different approach to Australia's national security,
Speaker 1: one that distances itself from America is unpredictable foreign policy
Speaker 1: and increasingly fragile alliances. Today. Columnists for the Saturday Paper
Speaker 1: poor Born Joorno on why Alberanze is stepping back from
Speaker 1: the US are what it means for Australia's place in
Speaker 1: the world. It's Friday six.
Speaker 2: Well, it is great to be here.
Speaker 3: We've definitely Prime Minister at Tinsley Man.
Speaker 1: We're in tucks regularly.
Speaker 3: Just a longstanding, incredibly important partnership with our friends in Australia.
Speaker 1: Paul over the work in Australia's Defense Minister Richard Miles
Speaker 1: met with his US counterpart, Pete Hegsith, What do we
Speaker 1: know about that meeting?
Speaker 4: Well, we know it was in the context of the
Speaker 4: Shangrila Dialogue, which is a very high powered meeting of
Speaker 4: government officials and military types held annually in Singapore.
Speaker 3: Under President Trump's leadership, the United States is committed to
Speaker 3: achieving peace through strength.
Speaker 4: Hegsith gave a speech on the Saturday, but on the
Speaker 4: Friday night he did meet with Richard Miles and put
Speaker 4: it on Miles that Australia should increase its defense spending
Speaker 4: as soon as possible to three point five percent of
Speaker 4: our gross domestic product.
Speaker 3: I urge all of our allies and partners to seize
Speaker 3: this moment with us. Our defense spending must reflect the
Speaker 3: dangers and threats that we face today, because the terrence
Speaker 3: doesn't come on the cheap, just to ask the American taxpayer.
Speaker 4: Miles and his press conference said that he was completely
Speaker 4: comfortable with the sentiment that the American expressed in terms
Speaker 4: of not only Australia, but everyone else in Asia and
Speaker 4: in fact everyone else in the world, should increase the
Speaker 4: defense spending. He didn't quibble in the broad with the
Speaker 4: view of higgsth that China is becoming more and more
Speaker 4: of a military threat and people better get ready for it.
Speaker 2: What we have seen from China is the single biggest
Speaker 2: increase in military capability and build up in a conventional
Speaker 2: sense by any country since the end of the Second
Speaker 2: World War.
Speaker 4: Miles, in his doorstop, which made headlines back home in Australia,
Speaker 4: said that he was totally up for the conversation of
Speaker 4: moving to a greater spend for defense.
Speaker 2: Reality is that there is no effective balance of power
Speaker 2: in this region absence the United States. But we cannot
Speaker 2: leave it to the United States alone.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 4: The problem with three point five percent of gross domestic
Speaker 4: product is by several estimates, that would increase our defense
Speaker 4: spending to wait for it, one hundred billion dollars annually.
Speaker 4: At the moment, Australia has committed to increase its spending
Speaker 4: to two percent of gross domestic product, which is, you know,
Speaker 4: back around eighty billion, which is not to be sneezed at.
Speaker 2: Through the largest peace time increase in defense spending since
Speaker 2: the end of the Second World War, Australia is investing
Speaker 2: in a generational transformation of the ADF to ensure we
Speaker 2: are not only in a position to deter force projection
Speaker 2: against US, but also, and perhaps even more importantly, to
Speaker 2: contribute to an effective regional balance where no state concludes
Speaker 2: that force is a viable way to achieve strategic goals.
Speaker 4: There was a feeling back in Canberra that Miles should
Speaker 4: have answered in the way in which Anthony Albanzi did
Speaker 4: by pointing out to the American that we have already
Speaker 4: significantly upped our spending by ten billion dollars over the
Speaker 4: next four years and in fact going further out thanks
Speaker 4: to UCAS. We're talking about three hundred billion, a lot
Speaker 4: of that which goes to the Americans. So there's no
Speaker 4: doubt that Albanizi felt that there needed to be a
Speaker 4: bit of pushback.
Speaker 5: What you should do in defense has decide what you need,
Speaker 5: your capability and then provide for it.
Speaker 1: That's what my.
Speaker 5: Government's doing, investing in our capability and investing in our relationships.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the Prime Minister was much stronger in his
Speaker 1: response to Peter Hexas suggestion. Does that suggest that there's
Speaker 1: perhaps a riff between the Defense Minister and the Prime
Speaker 1: Minister on this particular issue.
Speaker 4: Well, the Prime Minister's office claims there isn't. There's a
Speaker 4: hell of a lot of difference between being up for
Speaker 4: the conversation and actually agreeing to a preordained gargantuan amount
Speaker 4: of money. But I think also what the Albanese government
Speaker 4: is very keen to do, especially in the aftermath of
Speaker 4: the election, is not to be seen in any way,
Speaker 4: shape or form to be cow tewing to Trump and
Speaker 4: the Trump administration, because there is no doubt that in
Speaker 4: the election campaign an overwhelming majority of Australians didn't like
Speaker 4: the Trump disruption and perceived that Peter Dunton was in
Speaker 4: fact too close to Trump and that many of his
Speaker 4: policies were shaped on Trump. So Albanezi is very determined
Speaker 4: not to create any sort of impression that post election
Speaker 4: is now as it were, going to toady to the Americans.
Speaker 4: In fact, in a very strong statement the next day,
Speaker 4: the Prime Minister pointed out, look, America doesn't determine our
Speaker 4: defense policy or spending or strategy. We do that.
Speaker 5: We determine our defense policy. Here where a sovereign nation
Speaker 5: that need to have pride in our sovereignty and in
Speaker 5: our capacity to make decisions in our national interest.
Speaker 1: Paul Australia in the US, for bitter or worse, have
Speaker 1: been joined at the hip for a long time. Now,
Speaker 1: do you get a sense that that might be changing
Speaker 1: or is it mostly about perceptions about being too close
Speaker 1: to Donald Trump in particular.
Speaker 4: Yeah, look, there's no doubt things are changing. And I
Speaker 4: think before going to the particulars of what you've just
Speaker 4: asked me, Hugh White, the Strategic Expert, an emeritus professor
Speaker 4: from the Australan National University. In his latest quarterly essay
Speaker 4: he talks about our post American future and it's an
Speaker 4: amazing analysis that does point out that what we're seeing
Speaker 4: now is the strengthening of China as a world power
Speaker 4: economically and even strategically, and the weakening of the United States.
Speaker 4: But the weakening of the United States, which is purposeful
Speaker 4: in terms of Trump no longer seeing the United States
Speaker 4: is the garran tor of democratic freedoms around the world.
Speaker 4: They're calling it the new American isolationism. So this is
Speaker 4: the new reality we have to come to terms with,
Speaker 4: and it is diametrically opposed to the worldview between Australia
Speaker 4: and America since World War II, which led to the
Speaker 4: establishment of the ANAS Treaty, a treaty between America Australia
Speaker 4: and New Zealand. That presumes that if we're attacked by anybody,
Speaker 4: America will come to our aid as the protector of
Speaker 4: our freedoms. But that is no longer the reality. And
Speaker 4: it's not only a reality that's changed thanks to Donald Trump,
Speaker 4: but it's one that's been changing over the last thirty years.
Speaker 4: In my view, the Australian public has never quite been
Speaker 4: completely as enthusiastic for being all the way with the USA, or,
Speaker 4: as one of our former Prime ministers, Harold Holt famously
Speaker 4: said on the lawns of the White House, all the
Speaker 4: way with LBJ Lynden Bands Johnson. And this was at
Speaker 4: the height of the Vietnam War. Even though Harold Holt
Speaker 4: did win a landslide election in nineteen sixty six, support
Speaker 4: for the Vietnam War was already waning, and within two
Speaker 4: elections the Liberals lost basically because of our commitment to Vietnam.
Speaker 1: Australia and the world have witnessed some of the biggest
Speaker 1: anti war protests ever seen.
Speaker 4: And you might also remember that when John Howard wanted
Speaker 4: to send everybody off to war joining George W. Bush
Speaker 4: in the invasion of Iraq, there were massive protests in
Speaker 4: Sydney and Melbourne, and public opinion was against that commitment. Certainly,
Speaker 4: Now what we're seeing, I think is that the politicians,
Speaker 4: certainly with Anthony Albanese and Labor, are more in tune
Speaker 4: with overwhelming public opinion. So trying to make just how
Speaker 4: close we are to America the touchstone of legitimacy for
Speaker 4: the government no longer holds any water.
Speaker 1: After the break, What will happen when Trump and Albanzi
Speaker 1: meet face to face? Paul? In a couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: Albanese will fly to Canada for the G seventh summer,
Speaker 1: making it his first opportunity to meet with Donald Trump
Speaker 1: face to face. How do you think that meeting is
Speaker 1: likely to go.
Speaker 4: First of all, we're the guests of the Canadian Prime Minister.
Speaker 4: We're not members of the G seven, so we're there
Speaker 4: as official guests and observers. And Albanesi is already telegraphing
Speaker 4: that he will politely but firmly tell the American President
Speaker 4: that his doubling of tariffs on our steel and uranium
Speaker 4: exports is not the act of a friend, and in fact,
Speaker 4: it is self harm for the United States because all
Speaker 4: it does is up the cost of everything for the
Speaker 4: Americans themselves. Now, nobody thinks that even if Albanizi does
Speaker 4: this in the politest of ways, that Donald Trump will
Speaker 4: thank him for it. And the talk in Gamber now
Speaker 4: is that Albanezy won't be going down to Washington have
Speaker 4: Tate in the Oval Office. Probably just as well, because
Speaker 4: if he gets the tone wrong, well, he might get
Speaker 4: the same treatment that Zelene got when he was in
Speaker 4: the Oval Office with Trump.
Speaker 1: The UK was able to secure an exemption from Trump's
Speaker 1: fifty percent tariffs and steel an aluminium. How likely is
Speaker 1: it that Australia could do the same.
Speaker 4: Well, that's a very good question and it'll depend, as
Speaker 4: we've been saying, on how Albanezi navigates his way around
Speaker 4: the good ship Trump. One of the things that's gotten
Speaker 4: in the way of us being able to negotiate exemptions
Speaker 4: is that our federal election got in the way, so
Speaker 4: that distracted our government from being able to do as
Speaker 4: much handiwork, and you go to Washington and all of
Speaker 4: that as Kei, as Starmer and the Brits were able
Speaker 4: to do with Trump. So in a sense there's a
Speaker 4: bit of catch up to be played here. But Trump
Speaker 4: Mark two has learned a lot from Trump Mark I.
Speaker 4: And when we got exemptions, when Prime Minister Malcolm Turnmilled
Speaker 4: won exemptions on Tariff's back, then we were one of
Speaker 4: thirty other countries that got them. This time, Trump's advisors
Speaker 4: and Trump himself are of a view nobody gets exemptions
Speaker 4: because it sort of defeats the purpose of what we're
Speaker 4: on about.
Speaker 1: Do you get the sense that Albanesi and his government
Speaker 1: might be looking to forge stronger tie elsewhere beyond the
Speaker 1: US as a result of all this uncertainty.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's absolutely no doubt about that. As we speak,
Speaker 4: our Trade Minister Don Farrell is in Europe trying to
Speaker 4: resurrect the Europe Australia Free Trade Deal. Also, it's to
Speaker 4: be noted that at the Shangrila Dialogue this year the
Speaker 4: keynote speaker was none other than the French President Emanuel Macron.
Speaker 6: The time for non alignment has undoubtedly pasts, but the
Speaker 6: time for coalitions of action as com and require that
Speaker 6: country is capable of acting together gives themselves every means
Speaker 6: to do so. We mass show consistency where all thos
Speaker 6: practice aable game.
Speaker 4: Albanezi makes a big deal of letting people know that
Speaker 4: he and Macron are the same page on many things.
Speaker 4: And I think it's worth noting that Macron's speech pointed
Speaker 4: out that the intensifying rivalry between the United States and China, well,
Speaker 4: Macron's view is that this is the greatest threat to
Speaker 4: global security. And he said Trump's idea of you know
Speaker 4: you're either with us or against this, well, it's dangerous.
Speaker 6: I will just conclude now with a plea, a call
Speaker 6: for action for Europe and Asia to work together on
Speaker 6: a coalition of independence, a coalition of contries that won't
Speaker 6: be enrolled but won't be believed. A coalition of contries
Speaker 6: that objects to the double standard. A coalition of contries
Speaker 6: that will pull their strengths to write the rest of technology,
Speaker 6: appold norms and protect the sovereigns.
Speaker 1: Paul, always great to speak with you.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much. Daniel buy.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, senior Liberal leaders have rejected
Speaker 1: comments from Alan Stockdale, the former Victorian treasurer appointed the
Speaker 1: manager it's new South Wales division, who claimed women in
Speaker 1: the party are sufficiently assertive and suggested quote as may
Speaker 1: now be needed to protect men. Senior figures, including federal
Speaker 1: leader Susan Lee and New South Wales liberal leader Mark
Speaker 1: Speakman have condemned the remarks as add a step and
Speaker 1: damaging to efforts to rebuild support among women. And Donald
Speaker 1: Trump has announced a new travel ban affecting citizens from
Speaker 1: twelve countries, mostly in Africa and the Middle East. The
Speaker 1: ban revised elements of his first term immigration policy, which
Speaker 1: was widely criticized as a Muslim ban. The latest travel
Speaker 1: ban came on the back of an anti Semitic fire
Speaker 1: bombing attack in Bolder, Colorado, in which an Egyptian man
Speaker 1: who was in the US unlawfully alleg injured fifteen people.
Speaker 1: While Egypt wasn't included in the list of band countries,
Speaker 1: Trump cited the attack as a justification for the sweeping restrictions.
Speaker 1: Seven Am was a daily show from Schwartz Media on
Speaker 1: the Saturday Paper. It's made by Atticus Bastow, Shane Anderson,
Speaker 1: Chris Stengate, Eric Jensen, Ruby Jones, Sarah McPhee, Travis Evans,
Speaker 1: Zoltenfetcho and Met Daniel James. Our theme music is by
Speaker 1: Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Bordeo. That's all
Speaker 1: from seven Am for this week we'll be back on Monday.
Speaker 1: Have a great weekend.