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Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, October twenty one, twenty twenty five. What really

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Speaker 1: went down at the highest levels of Dan Andrews Victorian government.

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Speaker 1: Victoria's independent, broad based Anti Corruption Commission is nearing the

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Speaker 1: end of Operation Richmond, its most secretive investigation ever. The

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Speaker 1: probe interlinks between former Premier Dan Andrews and the United

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Speaker 1: Firefighters Union, has stretched over several years and promises to

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Speaker 1: spill all manner of labor party secrets That deep dive

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Speaker 1: into Operation Richmond's origin story is live right now at

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Speaker 1: the Australian dot Com dot au. Australia will lend Papua

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Speaker 1: New Guinea half a billion dollars as part of the

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Speaker 1: freshly signed Puck Puck Defense Treaty, but we won't pick

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Speaker 1: up a six point two million dollar catering bill for

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Speaker 1: Pang's military. The funding will be put towards new rifles,

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Speaker 1: uniforms and aviation training, as well as humanitarian aid and wearhouses.

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Speaker 1: What's going on with Barnaby Joyce, the talented mercurial confounding

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Speaker 1: politician who can distill an idea better than anyone in Politics,

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Speaker 1: says he's quitting the National Party, declining to run at

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Speaker 1: the next election and maybe considering joining Pauline Hanson's One Nation.

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Speaker 1: Today Greg Sheridan on the latest in an opposition struggling

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Speaker 1: to hang on to its own talent.

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Speaker 2: Today I'm acting Prime Minister, or will be for a

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Speaker 2: couple hours until the boss gets back from New Zealand

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Speaker 2: playing crashes, in which case is a permanent thing.

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Speaker 3: Farnaby is your job, as the Americans would say, just

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Speaker 3: a heart beat away from that ultimate power.

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Speaker 2: People have been watching too much West Wing. Have you

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Speaker 2: got to stop it? We start letting movie stars even

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Speaker 2: though they've been the sexiest man alive twice to come

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Speaker 2: into our nation, then why don't we just break the

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Speaker 2: laws for everybody. So it's time that Pistol and Boo

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Speaker 2: bug it off back to the United States.

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Speaker 1: Greg Sheridan is The Australian's Foreign editor, which means we

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Speaker 1: usually invite him on the front to explain the byzantine

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Speaker 1: Indonisian politics of the Middle East. So I can't think

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Speaker 1: of anyone better to explain what's going on inside the

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Speaker 1: Federal Coalition. The latest news is that Barnaby Joyce, one

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Speaker 1: of the most talented political communicators of our age, is

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Speaker 1: blowing up his relationship with the National Party. But I

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Speaker 1: can't really fathom why.

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Speaker 3: Greg.

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Speaker 1: Can you shed any light on what exactly has got

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Speaker 1: Barnaby Joyce's goat and why he says he's leaving the Nats.

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Speaker 3: Well, Claire, I think Barnaby Joyce is a symptom of

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Speaker 3: a wider crisis the Liberal and National Parties. They can't

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Speaker 3: work out how they want to proceed as an opposition

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Speaker 3: and whether they should restructure, whether they can restructure. I

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Speaker 3: think all of them are getting seduced by the idea

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Speaker 3: that the road to success lies in some realignment of

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Speaker 3: right wing politics. And plainly Barnaby Joyce is being wooed

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Speaker 3: by Pauline Hanson's One Nation. It's no secret that Barnaby

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Speaker 3: Joyce and David Little Proud, the National's leader, richly to

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Speaker 3: test each other.

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Speaker 2: It is a reality. The relationship between myself and David

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Speaker 2: over a number of years is well, it's broken down

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Speaker 2: and it's very sad. That's just what happens in some

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Speaker 2: human relationships. It's not really conducive to being effective for me,

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Speaker 2: nor effective for them to remain in the room.

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Speaker 3: I think Joyce has never got over losing the leadership.

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Speaker 3: He was an immensely talented political fear but his personal

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Speaker 3: problems got in the way of his political career and

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Speaker 3: it is an indictment of both him and David Little

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Speaker 3: Proud that they haven't been able to find a way

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Speaker 3: to work together. You know, successful politics all over the

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Speaker 3: world is full of teams who don't like each other.

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Speaker 3: Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, Bob Hawk and Paul Keating,

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Speaker 3: John Howd and Peter Costello. Not one of those pairs

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Speaker 3: exchanged Christmas cards and went round to each other's house

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Speaker 3: for dinner or anything. But they were very effective combinations

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Speaker 3: and coalition politics now is in a terrible crisis of

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Speaker 3: mediocre performance and grandiose dreams.

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Speaker 1: Barnaby Joyce was elected as a Senator in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four to represent the National Party for Queensland and

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Speaker 1: he said at the time that the Ben Howard government

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Speaker 1: couldn't rely on him, couldn't take him for granted, that

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Speaker 1: he would behave in Parliament to best represent the people

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Speaker 1: who'd elected him. But he became an incredible asset for

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Speaker 1: the coalition, didn't.

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Speaker 3: He That's absolutely right. So politics is full of paradox,

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Speaker 3: and there is a tension between being a big personality

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Speaker 3: and working as part of a team. And when Barnaby

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Speaker 3: was first elected as a Senator, I think the coalition

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Speaker 3: needed his vote to pass legislation, so they had almost

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Speaker 3: uniquely in history, I think, a majority in the Senate,

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Speaker 3: but it was a majority of one, so if Barnaby

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Speaker 3: went the other way, they didn't get their stuff past,

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Speaker 3: and he made a big fuss about that. But he

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Speaker 3: was a compelling personality. He was a natural populist, which

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Speaker 3: meant he had a good instinct for how people felt

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Speaker 3: about issues, and he was someone who liked to be

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Speaker 3: the center of attention. That is true of many people

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Speaker 3: who go on to be effective leaders, and often the

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Speaker 3: only way to cope with someone like that is to

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Speaker 3: make them leader. And he switched to the Low House

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Speaker 3: and he became leader, and he was a very effective

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Speaker 3: leader of the National Party.

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Speaker 1: Barnaby, despite his very broad accent and his presentation as

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Speaker 1: kind of a simple country accountant, was a highly intelligent,

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Speaker 1: very well educated person who thinks very deeply about big

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Speaker 1: philosophical ideas. He was able to articulate things though I

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Speaker 1: always thought Greg and in a great way in terms

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Speaker 1: of sort of retail politics. Like I remember him talking

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Speaker 1: about the one hundred dollars Sunday ROAs the one hundred

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Speaker 1: dollar roast lamb. That idea really helped kill off the

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Speaker 1: carbon tax, the emissions trading scheme.

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Speaker 2: At the end of our sheep industry. I don't think

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Speaker 2: your working mother is going to be very happy when

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Speaker 2: they're paying over one hundred dollars for a roast.

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Speaker 1: He had that ability to synthesize things, but almost no

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Speaker 1: one else has.

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Speaker 3: The problem with the opposition now is that none of

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Speaker 3: them has a persona which is well known to the

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Speaker 3: Australian people, which stands for anything. They have no definition

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Speaker 3: about their political personality. Whereas Barnaby achieved what every politician wants.

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Speaker 3: He kind of became a celebrity, but he also became

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Speaker 3: associated with certain issues and certain approaches. Now the super

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Speaker 3: genius at all this, of course, was Tony Abbott. The

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Speaker 3: great thing which killed off the carbon tax was the

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Speaker 3: great big tax on everything. But the Opposition can't do

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Speaker 3: that at the moment. The only memorable phrase they've come

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Speaker 3: up with in three and a half years of opposition

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Speaker 3: was James Pattison, the other day talking about how the

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Speaker 3: Albanese government was producing the Victorianization of the Australian economy. Now,

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Speaker 3: part of the art of opposition is to come up

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Speaker 3: with memorable images and phrases which capture a reality and

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Speaker 3: then which also damaged the government by capturing that reality.

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Speaker 3: And I wish they would think of themselves less as

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Speaker 3: Winston Churchill in his wilderness years and more as people

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Speaker 3: who haven't done very well at their job and need

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Speaker 3: to try a lot harder. I mean a lot of

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Speaker 3: it is energy. One thing to like about to Be

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Speaker 3: was that he is just boundless energy. You just bounced

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Speaker 3: around all the time. You couldn't shut him up. You know,

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Speaker 3: you once got on the phone with him or or

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Speaker 3: met him in a corridor or something, and you know

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Speaker 3: he'd still be talking out your twenty eight minutes later

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Speaker 3: without apparently drawing breath. You know, he could breathe through

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Speaker 3: his ears or something, and you needn't say a word.

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Speaker 3: Successful opposition politicians that I've known, like Kevin Rudd, Toney Abbot,

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Speaker 3: Josh Fredenberg, they have that relentless quality. They're full of ideas.

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Speaker 3: They come up with memorable phrases and images, and no

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Speaker 3: one in the opposition is doing any of that At

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Speaker 3: the moment. They're talking about whether they want to restructure

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Speaker 3: to be a populist party or a free market party.

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Speaker 3: But to be any kind of party, you've got to

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Speaker 3: be a great campaigner. Now, Barnaby Joyce is one of

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Speaker 3: their strong campaigners and they're not making any use of him.

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Speaker 3: But that's across the board. How can it be that

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Speaker 3: Andrew Hasty, just Center Price and Matt Canavan are on

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Speaker 3: the back bench, and that Dave Sharma, you know he

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Speaker 3: carries the oranges at halftime or something. This is like

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Speaker 3: a cricket team captain by Graham Yeller which has decided

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Speaker 3: to keep Damian Fleming and Alan Border and everybody off

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Speaker 3: the field. It's just and that reflects very badly on

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Speaker 3: the leader, but it also reflects very badly on the

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Speaker 3: people who are on the back bench. Neither side is

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Speaker 3: willing to compromise intelligently in order to be an effective opposition,

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Speaker 3: and not one of them is Charles de gaul or

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Speaker 3: Winston Churchill in disguise or anything. They just need to

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Speaker 3: learn how to work and campaign hard before they get

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Speaker 3: a fit of the vapors about what's the nature of

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Speaker 3: the party that they belong to.

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Speaker 1: Someone who does have a good radar for political talent

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Speaker 1: is Pauline Hanson. Now her One Nation Party is quite

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Speaker 1: overtly circling Barnaby Joyce, Andrew Hasty and just into numbering enterprise.

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Speaker 1: What's your sense of Pauline Hanson's role in all of

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Speaker 1: this greeg As populist right wing parties rise around the world, Well.

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Speaker 3: Hson deserves credit for her durability. Having said that, Hanson

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Speaker 3: is quite a limited populist leader. She's never except for

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Speaker 3: the first time she was elected in a fluke as

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Speaker 3: a Liberal, She's never had representation in the Lower House.

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Speaker 3: She doesn't look as though she could threaten to form government. Now.

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Speaker 3: Australia has not had a really competent populist leader or party.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Clive Palmer gave the right wing parties a

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Speaker 3: lot of money and Pauline Hanson is as near as

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Speaker 3: they've come to someone with mainstream appeal. Barnaby Joyce would

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Speaker 3: certainly be very formidable, but it's very hard to imagine

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Speaker 3: that Canavan or Hasty or Price joins One Nation and

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Speaker 3: One Nation wins an election. It's infinitely easier to take

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Speaker 3: over the Liberal Party, or to just run your policies

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Speaker 3: from within the Liberal Party would be to run a

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Speaker 3: new party. Our voting system and so makes it extremely difficult.

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Speaker 3: First of all, it's compulsory voting, so everybody votes, including

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Speaker 3: that thirty or forty percent of the electorate who pays

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Speaker 3: no attention at all, Well, somehow other you've got to

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Speaker 3: be able to talk to them. And also the populist

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Speaker 3: part is like Georgia Maloney in Italy have come to power,

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Speaker 3: have done so generally with twenty five or twenty eight

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Speaker 3: percent of the vote. Now, in a proportional representation coalition system,

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Speaker 3: you can lead a government with that. But in a

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Speaker 3: preferential system, if you're off to the right and everyone

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Speaker 3: else's center or left, then all the preferences will drain

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Speaker 3: away from you, and you might get twenty eight percent

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Speaker 3: of the vote and five percent of the seats. It's

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Speaker 3: a million times easier simply to reform the party you're in.

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Speaker 3: In the United States, the populist revolt against failed mainstream

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Speaker 3: policies occurred within the Republican Party. So Donald Trump didn't

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Speaker 3: found the America First Party or something. He just took

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Speaker 3: over the Republican Party Tony Abbott when the Howard government

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Speaker 3: was defeated and Brendan Nelson gave him a contemptible shadow portfolio. Nonetheless,

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Speaker 3: he stayed on the front bench and five minutes later

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Speaker 3: he was the leader. I am confused, beyond fathoming why

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Speaker 3: Andrew Hasey would go to the back bench. It is

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Speaker 3: a self indulgence for Matt Canavan to be on the

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Speaker 3: back bench these five years, the same with just Enter Price.

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Speaker 3: These people are depriving the nation of their talent when

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Speaker 3: we've never been more in need of leadership. And as

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Speaker 3: I say, that reflects very badly on the leader of

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Speaker 3: the party, who is meant to manage her team. It

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Speaker 3: reflects very badly on them. The Nationals have done well

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Speaker 3: in the last few elections, they've held their seats, and

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Speaker 3: yet here they are all at war with each other,

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Speaker 3: half of them in a furious sulk, with the other

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Speaker 3: half refusing to serve on the back bench, threatening to

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Speaker 3: leave and join other parties and so on. Whereas, really,

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Speaker 3: you know, fellas, get over yourselves. There is a nation

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Speaker 3: which needs governing. You know, come back to work, do

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Speaker 3: your day job. Make life hard for the government, not

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Speaker 3: for each other.

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Speaker 1: Coming up. How much blame should Susan Lee be bearing.

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Speaker 1: Susan Lee created this shadow cabinet and obviously created some

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Speaker 1: serious problems for herself by, as you say, sidelining talented people.

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Speaker 1: Then her next move was to send them something with

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Speaker 1: the grandiose title of a charter letter, including key performance

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Speaker 1: indicators and expectations for them, towing the line, Really, what's

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Speaker 1: your take on the skill with which she's actually running

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Speaker 1: this group of people?

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Speaker 3: Greg, Well, like everyone, I wanted to give her a

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Speaker 3: fair go, and I still do. She's a nice person

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Speaker 3: and so she makes a contribution. But this is surely

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Speaker 3: the dumbest act of leadership you could ever imagine. If

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Speaker 3: poor old Aposta Cooglo coached as badly as that, he

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have lasted for thirty nine days. I'll tell you

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Speaker 3: what I mean. How can you deal with someone like

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Speaker 3: to center Price, who is obviously a bit egocentric and

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Speaker 3: a bit sensitive and so on, and lose her over

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Speaker 3: some nonsensical bit of rubbish like her comments on the

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Speaker 3: Indian community. What just Centerprice set was stupid? But she

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Speaker 3: was never going to apologize. So why would you send

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Speaker 3: Alex Hawk out in order to make everything as bad

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Speaker 3: as it could possibly be. Why would you send a

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Speaker 3: charter letter to Andrew Hasty instead of talking to him

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Speaker 3: about the role that he wanted to play in immigration policy?

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Speaker 3: What is the difference between Andrew Hasty and Susan Leon

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Speaker 3: immigration policy? One is going to propose a very big

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Speaker 3: cut to immigration and the other is going to propose

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Speaker 3: a very very big cut to immigration. I mean from

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Speaker 3: two yards distance, you couldn't possibly tell them apart, how

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Speaker 3: could you give Dave Sharma such a ridiculous, nonsense non job.

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Speaker 3: Sharma effortlessly masters all media and actually in a whole

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Speaker 3: lot of policy areas, knows what he's talking about, whereas

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Speaker 3: most of these liberals can barely get through their talking points.

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Speaker 3: And he already has a profile. So why wouldn't you

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Speaker 3: say let's get the ball to Sharma quickly because he

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Speaker 3: can make yards up the middle, Instead of which you say, no, no,

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Speaker 3: he's got to stay on the sideline so that all

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Speaker 3: of our anonymous hacks who voted for me in the

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Speaker 3: leadership battle can get promoted. This is rank dumbness. This

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Speaker 3: is a weak party lacking in talent, and the leader

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Speaker 3: determined not to use the talent. That's there because it's

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Speaker 3: not from her faction, and then so mismanaging the thing

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Speaker 3: that it's likely to fall apart now. I think it'll

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Speaker 3: be a miracle if she manages to hold onto the

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Speaker 3: leadership until the next election. The deepest strategy in Australian

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Speaker 3: politics is that Josh Fredenberg didn't recontest the seat of

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Speaker 3: Ku Yong last time and win, because the opposition now

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Speaker 3: would count for something and as a result we'd have

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Speaker 3: better government because the government would be under some pressure,

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Speaker 3: whereas at the moment this opposition wouldn't blow away an

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Speaker 3: air balloon. You know, it's just completely inconsequential.

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Speaker 1: Greg Sheridan is The Australian's Foreign editor. You can read

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Speaker 1: Greg's analysis, plus all the latest news, sport, politics and

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Speaker 1: business right now at the Australian dot com au