1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Apote production. 2 00:00:10,281 --> 00:00:15,201 Speaker 2: This podcast contains descriptions of sexual assault and psychological trauma. 3 00:00:15,401 --> 00:00:19,441 Speaker 2: It's not recommended for younger listeners and discretion is advised. 4 00:00:24,361 --> 00:00:26,721 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand I'm your host 5 00:00:26,721 --> 00:00:30,361 Speaker 2: Adam Shand Today is part one of two episodes on 6 00:00:30,441 --> 00:00:34,601 Speaker 2: the danger women face when separating from violent men. In 7 00:00:34,641 --> 00:00:38,161 Speaker 2: August nineteen eighty seven, twenty five year old Vicky Cleary 8 00:00:38,561 --> 00:00:42,001 Speaker 2: was murdered by her ex boyfriend Peter Keo. All the 9 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,881 Speaker 2: evidence pointed to wilful homicide. However, under an archaic legal 10 00:00:46,921 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 2: principle called the provocation law, the murderer was entitled to 11 00:00:50,881 --> 00:00:54,641 Speaker 2: claim that Vicky had provoked him into losing control and 12 00:00:54,761 --> 00:00:56,441 Speaker 2: stabbing her multiple times. 13 00:00:57,121 --> 00:01:00,761 Speaker 3: Vicky Cleary was only twenty five when she was repeatedly 14 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,441 Speaker 3: stabbed at a kindergarten by her abusive ex partner. 15 00:01:06,321 --> 00:01:10,481 Speaker 2: Despite strong evidence of premeditation, including laying in wait for 16 00:01:10,521 --> 00:01:13,921 Speaker 2: an hour to attack Vicky outside the Melbourne kindergarten where 17 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,081 Speaker 2: she worked, Keo was found guilty of manslaughter only and 18 00:01:18,161 --> 00:01:21,481 Speaker 2: sentenced to three years and eleven months in jail. 19 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,681 Speaker 3: Outrage follows court decision as killer avoids murder conviction under 20 00:01:26,721 --> 00:01:27,921 Speaker 3: provocation defense. 21 00:01:29,441 --> 00:01:34,041 Speaker 2: Vicky's brother, Phil Cleary, a champion footballer and later independent 22 00:01:34,081 --> 00:01:37,441 Speaker 2: member of Federal Parliament, worked for decades to highlight this 23 00:01:37,601 --> 00:01:42,721 Speaker 2: deep injustice. The provocation law was finally repealed in two 24 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 2: thousand and five. Phil Cleary has continued to fight for 25 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,961 Speaker 2: the rights of women before the law and to highlight 26 00:01:50,001 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: domestic violence. More than one hundred women are murdered each 27 00:01:53,881 --> 00:01:57,001 Speaker 2: year in Australia, and on average, a woman is killed 28 00:01:57,081 --> 00:02:01,241 Speaker 2: every nine to eleven days by a current or former partner. 29 00:02:02,161 --> 00:02:05,761 Speaker 3: In twenty twenty five, at least seventy fours Australian women 30 00:02:05,841 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 3: have been killed in domestic violence attacks. 31 00:02:08,201 --> 00:02:12,721 Speaker 2: This year, and the trend is appalling a jump of 32 00:02:12,761 --> 00:02:15,881 Speaker 2: twenty eight percent in the year to twenty twenty five. 33 00:02:16,841 --> 00:02:20,001 Speaker 2: Vicky Cleary Day is held every year in Melbourne to 34 00:02:20,081 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: continue the fight for justice for these victims and those 35 00:02:23,561 --> 00:02:25,361 Speaker 2: who may face the same fate. 36 00:02:26,361 --> 00:02:30,121 Speaker 3: Crowds gather in Melbourne for Vicky Cleary Day to honor 37 00:02:30,161 --> 00:02:31,761 Speaker 3: victims of domestic violence. 38 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,601 Speaker 2: In part two, I'm going to talk to Vicky's sister Lizzie, 39 00:02:37,041 --> 00:02:40,481 Speaker 2: but first it's my privilege to welcome Phil Cleary to 40 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:41,921 Speaker 2: the Real Crime Studio Gido. 41 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: Phil Hello, Adam, good to talk with you. 42 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,281 Speaker 2: It's always a pleasure, mate. I've done you a long 43 00:02:49,321 --> 00:02:52,401 Speaker 2: time and you've been fighting this cause all that time. 44 00:02:53,041 --> 00:02:57,281 Speaker 2: And I am shocked to think that this provocation law 45 00:02:57,841 --> 00:03:01,801 Speaker 2: was still in force in two thousand and five. What 46 00:03:01,921 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: does it say about our society and our attitude to 47 00:03:04,881 --> 00:03:05,721 Speaker 2: just for women. 48 00:03:07,281 --> 00:03:12,801 Speaker 4: Well, it's astounding, really, Adam, in that the history of 49 00:03:12,921 --> 00:03:16,361 Speaker 4: the killing of women is one of the most scandalous 50 00:03:16,441 --> 00:03:18,801 Speaker 4: events in Australian history. 51 00:03:19,601 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: When I researched the killing. 52 00:03:21,441 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 4: Of women after Vicki's murder and the provocation trial, Adam, 53 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,321 Speaker 4: you couldn't believe what I unearthed, Like I went to 54 00:03:29,401 --> 00:03:35,601 Speaker 4: the nineteen sixties and seventies, I found murder after murder 55 00:03:35,601 --> 00:03:38,521 Speaker 4: of women and it was being treated in the courts 56 00:03:38,521 --> 00:03:42,041 Speaker 4: of provocation like you just couldn't believe it. A bloke 57 00:03:42,081 --> 00:03:45,281 Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy two to three drives to Bendigo with 58 00:03:45,401 --> 00:03:48,921 Speaker 4: a rifle. He shoots his wife dead, and he goes 59 00:03:48,961 --> 00:03:51,321 Speaker 4: to trial and he gets three in a bit years 60 00:03:51,361 --> 00:03:53,761 Speaker 4: and the judge says that the woman who left him 61 00:03:53,761 --> 00:03:56,561 Speaker 4: did a harsh thing to him. He'd been violent to 62 00:03:56,641 --> 00:04:00,481 Speaker 4: her and her child. That was reported in the police interview. 63 00:04:00,681 --> 00:04:03,881 Speaker 4: Now that's fifty odd years ago, Adam. So when I 64 00:04:03,961 --> 00:04:07,441 Speaker 4: started researching, and I did to VICKI in nineteen eighty nine, 65 00:04:07,521 --> 00:04:10,801 Speaker 4: I think this is one of the great secrets of 66 00:04:10,841 --> 00:04:15,241 Speaker 4: Australian history, a bit like the treatment of Indigenous Australians 67 00:04:15,281 --> 00:04:19,121 Speaker 4: was only unearthed the Stolen Generation. Here we have this 68 00:04:19,881 --> 00:04:24,601 Speaker 4: truly dark and horrific story of the murder of women. 69 00:04:24,601 --> 00:04:28,001 Speaker 4: And you say, finally on this point, how was it 70 00:04:28,041 --> 00:04:32,201 Speaker 4: that it survived? Well, the truth is there were judges everywhere. 71 00:04:32,641 --> 00:04:37,121 Speaker 4: You didn't need that blow Tait and the online warriors 72 00:04:37,161 --> 00:04:40,041 Speaker 4: to diminish the rights of women. There were middle class 73 00:04:40,121 --> 00:04:45,361 Speaker 4: judges everywhere granted provocation defenses which would send a chill 74 00:04:45,481 --> 00:04:49,001 Speaker 4: down your spine if you wreck the stories, read the 75 00:04:49,041 --> 00:04:50,481 Speaker 4: transcripts as I've done. 76 00:04:50,601 --> 00:04:55,601 Speaker 1: So a really serious question that we have to confront. Well, 77 00:04:55,641 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: two points about that. 78 00:04:56,921 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 2: You talk about these middle class judges and so forth, 79 00:05:00,161 --> 00:05:03,241 Speaker 2: but they were bound by precedent, which is a guard 80 00:05:03,361 --> 00:05:06,761 Speaker 2: rail that judges took very serious still do. And Justice Hemple, 81 00:05:07,121 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: who was the judge in your sister's case, was a 82 00:05:10,521 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: reasonable guy of high reputation, but like many he was 83 00:05:14,561 --> 00:05:18,001 Speaker 2: just confined to the guard rails of president, and it 84 00:05:18,041 --> 00:05:22,441 Speaker 2: was your campaign to help the Lord jump those guardrails. 85 00:05:23,681 --> 00:05:26,641 Speaker 1: Well, look, I'm happy to take some credit for that, Adam. 86 00:05:27,161 --> 00:05:31,801 Speaker 4: I did challenge the premises, the principles on which provocation 87 00:05:32,041 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 4: was founded. I framed it in a way that I 88 00:05:35,161 --> 00:05:40,321 Speaker 4: thought explained the contradictions to the judiciary and the legal fraternity. 89 00:05:40,561 --> 00:05:41,801 Speaker 1: I put them in a corner. 90 00:05:42,201 --> 00:05:44,961 Speaker 4: These are the people who would claim to be affirmers 91 00:05:44,961 --> 00:05:47,961 Speaker 4: of human rights, aren't they. They want to defend innocent people. 92 00:05:48,001 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 4: They want to defend the human rights of people everywhere. 93 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,521 Speaker 4: I said to them, what about the rights of women. 94 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,161 Speaker 4: How can you be saying that Vicky Cleary does not 95 00:05:58,521 --> 00:06:03,281 Speaker 4: have the right to leave that bloke Peter Keo without 96 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,321 Speaker 4: being accused of provoking him when he kills her at 97 00:06:07,361 --> 00:06:08,721 Speaker 4: her place of work. 98 00:06:09,121 --> 00:06:12,161 Speaker 1: And I said to them, tell me where the contradictions are. 99 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:13,801 Speaker 1: Tell me if you can explain this. 100 00:06:13,921 --> 00:06:16,801 Speaker 4: When they go, oh, the law says, and I say, bullshit, 101 00:06:17,161 --> 00:06:19,841 Speaker 4: The law is not framed to say of the woman 102 00:06:20,081 --> 00:06:23,721 Speaker 4: you have no rights. What you've done is you've extended 103 00:06:23,761 --> 00:06:28,041 Speaker 4: the definition of provocation in a way that plays to sexism, 104 00:06:28,281 --> 00:06:32,921 Speaker 4: that plays to misogyny, and plays to patriarchy. And the notion, Adam, 105 00:06:33,241 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 4: that the man has control who is offended. When the 106 00:06:36,481 --> 00:06:40,161 Speaker 4: woman leaves a man, the man his human rights have 107 00:06:40,281 --> 00:06:43,361 Speaker 4: been challenged. So what you've found in the courtroom was 108 00:06:43,561 --> 00:06:47,201 Speaker 4: judges were affirming this idea of the man having greater 109 00:06:47,401 --> 00:06:48,561 Speaker 4: rights than the woman. 110 00:06:49,201 --> 00:06:50,721 Speaker 1: Women reduced to property. 111 00:06:50,761 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 4: And the last point I make there again is that 112 00:06:52,961 --> 00:06:55,801 Speaker 4: on the steps of the court, if I'm proud of anything, 113 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 4: it's this, Adam, on the steps of the court in 114 00:06:58,041 --> 00:07:02,921 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty nine, I said, this verdict produces my sister 115 00:07:03,121 --> 00:07:08,721 Speaker 4: and all women to chattel. I said that nineteen eighty nine. 116 00:07:08,961 --> 00:07:12,081 Speaker 4: Now we've done away with provocation. But gee, there's a 117 00:07:12,121 --> 00:07:14,961 Speaker 4: lot that goes on in the society. The one could 118 00:07:15,001 --> 00:07:17,561 Speaker 4: say reduces women to chattels. 119 00:07:18,241 --> 00:07:20,321 Speaker 2: I think you're did right. What I'll also say is 120 00:07:21,401 --> 00:07:25,361 Speaker 2: there's been progress for white women in this country. The 121 00:07:25,481 --> 00:07:29,761 Speaker 2: murder rate of Indigenous women is another hidden shame in 122 00:07:29,801 --> 00:07:31,961 Speaker 2: this country. And I would argue that the law may 123 00:07:32,001 --> 00:07:36,321 Speaker 2: have moved forward, but the policing of the indigenous community 124 00:07:36,921 --> 00:07:39,801 Speaker 2: leaves indigenous women completely vulnerable. 125 00:07:41,041 --> 00:07:46,041 Speaker 4: Well, Adam, the researchers will tell you, and people working 126 00:07:46,081 --> 00:07:50,401 Speaker 4: in the territory Indigenous women will tell you that the 127 00:07:50,521 --> 00:07:53,921 Speaker 4: rate of killing by white veala and violence by white 128 00:07:54,121 --> 00:07:58,401 Speaker 4: la against Indigenous women is exceedingly high. So when we 129 00:07:58,481 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 4: talk about violence against Indigenous women, we have to ask 130 00:08:02,321 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 4: the question, what is the data telling us about who 131 00:08:05,881 --> 00:08:10,081 Speaker 4: is inflicting the violence against Indigenous women? How many white 132 00:08:10,121 --> 00:08:13,441 Speaker 4: fella are responsible for violence against women? 133 00:08:13,521 --> 00:08:15,041 Speaker 1: So let's have that discussion. 134 00:08:15,441 --> 00:08:18,441 Speaker 4: And i'd say also on this point about the law, 135 00:08:18,561 --> 00:08:22,121 Speaker 4: the law has moved forward, but the killing of women 136 00:08:22,161 --> 00:08:26,441 Speaker 4: and the harassment and stalking of women is catastrophic. And 137 00:08:26,521 --> 00:08:31,801 Speaker 4: so here's my interpretation of it. Since second wave feminism, 138 00:08:32,281 --> 00:08:35,681 Speaker 4: more and more and more women have left men, they're 139 00:08:35,721 --> 00:08:39,041 Speaker 4: now saying we don't stay. But that means the number 140 00:08:39,041 --> 00:08:43,601 Speaker 4: of women in danger has increased exponentially, and so the 141 00:08:43,721 --> 00:08:47,841 Speaker 4: killings are all linked to women searching for their human rights. 142 00:08:47,841 --> 00:08:51,401 Speaker 1: There's an irony in that, surely, Well, I. 143 00:08:51,401 --> 00:08:54,441 Speaker 2: Think you're right. I mean, there are instances of white 144 00:08:54,441 --> 00:08:58,001 Speaker 2: fellows killing Indigenous women, but we're also seeing exactly the 145 00:08:58,081 --> 00:09:02,921 Speaker 2: same issue that your sister fell prey to, was current 146 00:09:03,241 --> 00:09:08,721 Speaker 2: or ex intimate partners killing women with impunity, And it's 147 00:09:08,761 --> 00:09:12,081 Speaker 2: the same thing there. And I know it's politically uncomfortable 148 00:09:12,081 --> 00:09:14,561 Speaker 2: for people. But I think what we're seeing here is 149 00:09:14,601 --> 00:09:18,601 Speaker 2: police saying in the Indigenous community, we can't keep you safe. 150 00:09:19,121 --> 00:09:22,201 Speaker 2: We're going to soft pedal these investigations. And there are 151 00:09:22,321 --> 00:09:26,041 Speaker 2: scores of these cases which are never resolved. But it's also, 152 00:09:26,201 --> 00:09:29,041 Speaker 2: might I say, a problem in the Indigenous community generally 153 00:09:29,281 --> 00:09:32,161 Speaker 2: that people don't trust the police, so they don't give evidence, 154 00:09:32,561 --> 00:09:35,641 Speaker 2: and so the killers are protected in this way as well. 155 00:09:36,001 --> 00:09:38,441 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have to just be careful. This is not 156 00:09:38,521 --> 00:09:42,481 Speaker 4: about being politically correct in my case. I'm just conscious 157 00:09:42,521 --> 00:09:47,001 Speaker 4: of wanting to hear what indigenous community has to say 158 00:09:47,041 --> 00:09:50,561 Speaker 4: about this question. They will address the facts straight away 159 00:09:50,921 --> 00:09:53,881 Speaker 4: that it is a high percentage of white vela. And 160 00:09:53,961 --> 00:09:57,921 Speaker 4: I've asked this question before. Is the violence in indigenous 161 00:09:57,961 --> 00:10:01,161 Speaker 4: communities of the same kind of patriarchal order as it 162 00:10:01,201 --> 00:10:04,201 Speaker 4: is in the white flow community. Are there other factors 163 00:10:04,241 --> 00:10:08,881 Speaker 4: at work like location and policing problems, etc. So put 164 00:10:08,881 --> 00:10:12,361 Speaker 4: those all on the agenda. Let's have a thorough conversation 165 00:10:12,521 --> 00:10:15,761 Speaker 4: about them. No problem with me, But everywhere we look 166 00:10:15,841 --> 00:10:19,161 Speaker 4: we have to condemn whether it's black fella or white fella, 167 00:10:19,601 --> 00:10:24,921 Speaker 4: the way men in contemporary society are usurping the rights 168 00:10:24,961 --> 00:10:27,401 Speaker 4: of women with impunity. 169 00:10:27,441 --> 00:10:29,361 Speaker 2: And you know what, you talk about a war on 170 00:10:29,481 --> 00:10:33,081 Speaker 2: women happening still today, and I think that's one of 171 00:10:33,121 --> 00:10:35,961 Speaker 2: the key issues to deal with. And we're seeing this 172 00:10:36,081 --> 00:10:41,041 Speaker 2: rise of toxic masculinity where people on the internet influences 173 00:10:41,241 --> 00:10:44,561 Speaker 2: Andrew Tait is one Nick Fuentes in America are now 174 00:10:44,561 --> 00:10:49,041 Speaker 2: saying it's okay for young men and older men to 175 00:10:49,081 --> 00:10:52,801 Speaker 2: be misogynist and to push back somehow against the progress 176 00:10:52,801 --> 00:10:56,321 Speaker 2: that women have made in feeling safer and protected in 177 00:10:56,361 --> 00:10:57,801 Speaker 2: our community. 178 00:10:57,921 --> 00:11:02,761 Speaker 4: Well, look, I'm a bit inclined to say that those 179 00:11:02,841 --> 00:11:07,681 Speaker 4: fellas on the internet beyond line misogynist warriors are only 180 00:11:07,761 --> 00:11:11,681 Speaker 4: giving expression to modes of thinking adam that existed before. 181 00:11:12,521 --> 00:11:15,521 Speaker 4: How could Vicky Cleary's killer be found not guilty of 182 00:11:15,601 --> 00:11:19,041 Speaker 4: murder in nineteen eighty nine only if the society has 183 00:11:19,201 --> 00:11:24,641 Speaker 4: deeply embedded notions of control of women and deeply embedded misogyny. 184 00:11:25,041 --> 00:11:29,361 Speaker 4: So I think the misogyny today is no different from 185 00:11:29,361 --> 00:11:32,801 Speaker 4: the misogyny of the seventies and nineteen eighties, except that 186 00:11:33,321 --> 00:11:37,361 Speaker 4: it gets amplified and ventilated more. But it's worth a study, 187 00:11:37,441 --> 00:11:41,201 Speaker 4: it's worth examination. Let's go and examine how impactful that 188 00:11:41,441 --> 00:11:43,321 Speaker 4: is by comparison with the past. 189 00:11:43,561 --> 00:11:45,121 Speaker 1: Let's have a discussion about it. 190 00:11:45,241 --> 00:11:48,041 Speaker 4: But the most critical thing I think I'd say about it, Adam, 191 00:11:48,121 --> 00:11:52,001 Speaker 4: is that it tells you how deeply embedded hatred of 192 00:11:52,041 --> 00:11:55,281 Speaker 4: women is. Now, don't forget we can talk about the 193 00:11:55,361 --> 00:11:58,561 Speaker 4: takes of the world. Tony Abbott stood in front of 194 00:11:58,721 --> 00:12:02,961 Speaker 4: posters of Julia Gillard on the lawns of Parliament House, 195 00:12:03,841 --> 00:12:07,361 Speaker 4: declaring that she was a witch and a bitch. Like 196 00:12:07,441 --> 00:12:10,161 Speaker 4: I mean, if you've got the Prime Minister of Australia 197 00:12:10,241 --> 00:12:15,001 Speaker 4: being portrayed that way, don't be surprised if young men 198 00:12:15,401 --> 00:12:17,401 Speaker 4: gravitate towards misogyny. 199 00:12:19,121 --> 00:12:22,521 Speaker 2: So, Phil, your campaign really doesn't have an end. You're 200 00:12:22,561 --> 00:12:24,681 Speaker 2: just going to keep fighting until your last breath. By 201 00:12:24,721 --> 00:12:28,081 Speaker 2: the sounds, how do you measure success in what you've. 202 00:12:27,921 --> 00:12:31,681 Speaker 1: Done for me? It's a human rights question. 203 00:12:32,201 --> 00:12:35,441 Speaker 4: I'm not just some blokers out there saying, oh, my 204 00:12:35,641 --> 00:12:38,161 Speaker 4: sister was murdered. I want you to be aware of that. 205 00:12:38,401 --> 00:12:43,041 Speaker 4: The circumstances were terrible, the verdict was terrible. It's shocking, 206 00:12:43,481 --> 00:12:45,321 Speaker 4: it's harmedness, it's traumatic. 207 00:12:45,641 --> 00:12:47,321 Speaker 1: I want to go further than that. 208 00:12:47,441 --> 00:12:51,841 Speaker 4: I want the society to properly grapple with the depth 209 00:12:51,921 --> 00:12:55,601 Speaker 4: of the misogyny and distrust and hatred of women and 210 00:12:55,641 --> 00:12:58,761 Speaker 4: the usurping of women's rights. So for me, Adam, it's 211 00:12:58,921 --> 00:13:02,961 Speaker 4: just a standard human rights question of the same order 212 00:13:03,001 --> 00:13:07,361 Speaker 4: as my position on Palistine the killing of Palestinian women 213 00:13:07,401 --> 00:13:11,241 Speaker 4: and children. I believe that's a major question for our time, 214 00:13:11,521 --> 00:13:14,721 Speaker 4: as is the struggles of indigenous people. So for me, 215 00:13:15,001 --> 00:13:18,561 Speaker 4: it goes on and on around human rights. It's got 216 00:13:18,601 --> 00:13:21,841 Speaker 4: to be seen as a human rights question. And so 217 00:13:22,441 --> 00:13:26,841 Speaker 4: a segue there, it's time the Prime Minister of Australia 218 00:13:27,281 --> 00:13:31,481 Speaker 4: said one, we have to apologize for the failures of 219 00:13:31,521 --> 00:13:34,881 Speaker 4: the past in relation to women, just as we apologized 220 00:13:35,081 --> 00:13:38,721 Speaker 4: for the Stolen Generation and so many other settings where 221 00:13:38,961 --> 00:13:42,801 Speaker 4: children and gay people are on it goes have been persecuted. 222 00:13:43,041 --> 00:13:46,041 Speaker 4: Let's have that apology first and then move to the 223 00:13:46,121 --> 00:13:47,121 Speaker 4: big discussion. 224 00:13:47,401 --> 00:13:51,121 Speaker 1: Put it front and center so that every online worrier knows. 225 00:13:51,241 --> 00:13:54,681 Speaker 4: We know it's a serious question. We know you are 226 00:13:54,801 --> 00:13:56,961 Speaker 4: not allowed to be talking like that. You want to 227 00:13:57,001 --> 00:14:00,041 Speaker 4: talk hate crimes. There they are confronting you. I want 228 00:14:00,081 --> 00:14:05,001 Speaker 4: the system and the politicians to be principled, not hypocritical, 229 00:14:05,441 --> 00:14:08,361 Speaker 4: and we'll have a better society if we grapple with 230 00:14:08,401 --> 00:14:09,761 Speaker 4: that question, we'll grapple. 231 00:14:09,441 --> 00:14:11,321 Speaker 1: With all the other questions better as well. 232 00:14:12,641 --> 00:14:14,401 Speaker 2: I think that's a great point you raise, that we 233 00:14:14,481 --> 00:14:17,601 Speaker 2: need to make institutional change because currently I deal with 234 00:14:17,641 --> 00:14:21,281 Speaker 2: police a lot, who are the first responders in this 235 00:14:21,361 --> 00:14:25,241 Speaker 2: domestic violence war, if you like, and they're fronting up, 236 00:14:25,641 --> 00:14:30,041 Speaker 2: crossing the threshold into people's lives. They may have six 237 00:14:30,081 --> 00:14:32,681 Speaker 2: months on the van, they're suddenly dealing with people that 238 00:14:32,721 --> 00:14:35,641 Speaker 2: are older than them with problems that are deep seated. 239 00:14:35,961 --> 00:14:37,961 Speaker 2: They try to do their best with a band aid. 240 00:14:38,201 --> 00:14:40,761 Speaker 2: They come back a few weeks later, the woman's been 241 00:14:40,841 --> 00:14:44,601 Speaker 2: murdered and there's an outcry against the police. But we're 242 00:14:44,601 --> 00:14:48,401 Speaker 2: not taking ownership of this at the institutional level. 243 00:14:49,801 --> 00:14:55,881 Speaker 4: Oh look, how many women have been murdered in a 244 00:14:55,921 --> 00:15:00,761 Speaker 4: circumstance where every red flag is flying at them. Let's 245 00:15:00,801 --> 00:15:04,241 Speaker 4: be honest about it straight. It's not something we have 246 00:15:04,321 --> 00:15:09,961 Speaker 4: to acquivver. It's as clear as a bell. Hannah Clark 247 00:15:10,041 --> 00:15:13,241 Speaker 4: in Brisbane, How did that happen? How did a woman 248 00:15:13,281 --> 00:15:16,881 Speaker 4: who told everyone she was in danger end up dead 249 00:15:17,041 --> 00:15:22,361 Speaker 4: with her children? It's truly amazing, It should be amazing, 250 00:15:22,601 --> 00:15:25,841 Speaker 4: but it's not because we are not addressing the question. 251 00:15:26,161 --> 00:15:31,361 Speaker 4: The fundamental question, for example, is separation is now the 252 00:15:31,361 --> 00:15:34,081 Speaker 4: most dangerous time for a woman. 253 00:15:34,401 --> 00:15:35,881 Speaker 1: Can't we just agree on that fact. 254 00:15:36,081 --> 00:15:39,241 Speaker 4: Tell the Prime Minister to stand up and say separation 255 00:15:39,481 --> 00:15:42,521 Speaker 4: has become the most dangerous time for every woman in 256 00:15:42,561 --> 00:15:45,281 Speaker 4: Australia and in the world, and it's occurred in the 257 00:15:45,321 --> 00:15:48,921 Speaker 4: aftermath of second wave feminism. That's a fact. These are facts. 258 00:15:49,001 --> 00:15:52,281 Speaker 4: They're not in dispute. So Prime Minister, what do we 259 00:15:52,361 --> 00:15:55,281 Speaker 4: do about that? Well, we have a system in place, 260 00:15:55,361 --> 00:15:58,041 Speaker 4: policing in place, Adam that accepts. 261 00:15:57,601 --> 00:15:58,641 Speaker 1: That's the first premise. 262 00:15:58,841 --> 00:16:02,281 Speaker 4: When's a woman in danger, when she separates, most in danger. 263 00:16:02,521 --> 00:16:06,241 Speaker 4: So we're going to put into place a total strategy 264 00:16:06,681 --> 00:16:09,441 Speaker 4: all the way through the society that grapples with this 265 00:16:09,641 --> 00:16:12,481 Speaker 4: question and says these men are going to be stopped. 266 00:16:12,641 --> 00:16:13,881 Speaker 1: They're going to be stopped. 267 00:16:13,961 --> 00:16:16,321 Speaker 4: And of course bio laws are part of it, parole 268 00:16:16,401 --> 00:16:18,641 Speaker 4: laws are part of it, but they're not the crucial question. 269 00:16:18,921 --> 00:16:21,281 Speaker 4: The crucial question is when you raised earlier, where do 270 00:16:21,361 --> 00:16:24,401 Speaker 4: the attitudes come from? So address the attitudes, but don't 271 00:16:24,401 --> 00:16:26,921 Speaker 4: be scared to tell the men of Australia we've got 272 00:16:26,921 --> 00:16:29,041 Speaker 4: an historical problem. 273 00:16:29,481 --> 00:16:31,841 Speaker 2: That's a great point you make phil separation is the 274 00:16:31,881 --> 00:16:35,201 Speaker 2: most dangerous time for a woman, and currently we have 275 00:16:35,281 --> 00:16:39,121 Speaker 2: this paper wall called the Apprehended Violence Order, which is 276 00:16:39,161 --> 00:16:44,121 Speaker 2: supposed to keep them safe, and police and courts are reluctant. 277 00:16:44,161 --> 00:16:45,081 Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is. 278 00:16:45,241 --> 00:16:48,041 Speaker 2: Across the board. I know some very good domestic violence 279 00:16:48,081 --> 00:16:51,401 Speaker 2: liaison officers and police forces who do protect women, but 280 00:16:51,441 --> 00:16:54,681 Speaker 2: the system is still paper thin. That's not a pun 281 00:16:54,881 --> 00:16:58,001 Speaker 2: it's exactly what it is. So I'd like to see 282 00:16:58,161 --> 00:17:05,041 Speaker 2: more men either given anklets, electronic anklets, bracelets to monitor 283 00:17:05,161 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 2: to their movements so if they're breaching the order, police 284 00:17:09,761 --> 00:17:13,321 Speaker 2: will know instantly and lock the bastards up for a short, 285 00:17:13,481 --> 00:17:14,321 Speaker 2: long period of time. 286 00:17:16,521 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 4: It's funny because I've not really pursued that line, you know, 287 00:17:20,761 --> 00:17:26,001 Speaker 4: that punitive line so heavily historically, But when you say it, 288 00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 4: I'm not offended by the notion. You know, I'm not 289 00:17:28,761 --> 00:17:32,281 Speaker 4: going to say, oh, that's a law and order freak show. 290 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:33,641 Speaker 1: We can't pursue that. 291 00:17:33,961 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 4: I have said things like that historically, but we've reached 292 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:43,201 Speaker 4: the point where it's a chronic and incredibly profound problem. 293 00:17:43,441 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: We've got to have new strategies now. 294 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 4: There has to be more policing for example, we have 295 00:17:47,761 --> 00:17:51,921 Speaker 4: to have better risk assessment around this question of men 296 00:17:52,001 --> 00:17:55,441 Speaker 4: who are dangerous to women. Now, the authorities could say 297 00:17:55,481 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 4: to us, oh, you can't stop all of them, and 298 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 4: I say, you haven't even tried. You didn't try with 299 00:18:02,281 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 4: that bloke Baxter and had a clerk, did you didn't 300 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 4: even try? 301 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: You didn't try. 302 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,281 Speaker 4: And I could name you off the cuff another ten 303 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,001 Speaker 4: twenty women and say every one of those cases was 304 00:18:12,001 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 4: a murder waiting to happen. And if any one of 305 00:18:14,441 --> 00:18:17,521 Speaker 4: those women, if I named you twenty had come to me, 306 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,001 Speaker 4: I would have saved them, but not by heroism. I 307 00:18:21,001 --> 00:18:23,961 Speaker 4: would have said, this is what you must do because 308 00:18:24,001 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 4: this man is a killer. But we don't have a 309 00:18:27,001 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 4: system in place to enact those procedures. And that's an 310 00:18:30,961 --> 00:18:34,201 Speaker 4: allusion to the sort of settings we've got to have solutions. 311 00:18:34,281 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, but we. 312 00:18:35,681 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 2: Have technology now that if you go and steal a 313 00:18:38,201 --> 00:18:40,681 Speaker 2: packet of Smarties in a shop, there's cameras that will 314 00:18:40,681 --> 00:18:42,801 Speaker 2: follow you up the street and you'll be pinched right 315 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:46,641 Speaker 2: before you get too far. But imagine this if your 316 00:18:46,681 --> 00:18:51,161 Speaker 2: sister was alive today and this individual was harassing her, 317 00:18:51,201 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 2: and she got a Navy O and it came with 318 00:18:53,201 --> 00:18:56,961 Speaker 2: electronic monitoring. Would she still be alive today. It's a 319 00:18:56,961 --> 00:18:59,921 Speaker 2: brutal question, but I think it's important because we can 320 00:18:59,961 --> 00:19:00,561 Speaker 2: do this now. 321 00:19:01,201 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: Well, I'll give you a bit of context. 322 00:19:03,241 --> 00:19:07,121 Speaker 4: The man who murdered our sit to Vicky outside her 323 00:19:07,241 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 4: place of work had been to that kindergarten on a 324 00:19:10,001 --> 00:19:14,561 Speaker 4: number of occasions in a threatening manner. He was threatening 325 00:19:15,321 --> 00:19:18,241 Speaker 4: the kindergarten director and others said he was threatening. There 326 00:19:18,321 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 4: wasn't a system, a cultural setting around, and procedures in 327 00:19:23,281 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 4: place to enact a safety strategy. 328 00:19:26,441 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: So there's the first step. 329 00:19:28,521 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 4: If we had that in place in a more comprehensive way, 330 00:19:32,241 --> 00:19:35,241 Speaker 4: we'd move to all of these solutions, put them all 331 00:19:35,281 --> 00:19:39,321 Speaker 4: on the table. But until we come to the acceptance 332 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 4: that when there are red flags flying, we must do something, 333 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,801 Speaker 4: we won't even consider all those possibilities. But I'm with 334 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,561 Speaker 4: you on the consideration of the possibilities, and we can 335 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 4: do them. Yes, there are blokes there who should be 336 00:19:52,481 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 4: stopped and could have been stopped. The bloke well, we 337 00:19:56,521 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 4: can't go into some that aren't even before the courts, 338 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,081 Speaker 4: but there are numerous before the courts and have been 339 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 4: before the courts, which are scandalous, Adam, scam. 340 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:09,961 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, because they've already applied technological solutions, for instance, 341 00:20:10,001 --> 00:20:13,961 Speaker 2: to speed camera operators in our country, whereby now there's 342 00:20:14,001 --> 00:20:15,721 Speaker 2: private companies that set up on the side of the 343 00:20:15,801 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: road and ping you for speeding. Why can't we have 344 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 2: this resources argument, this technology argument doesn't watch with me. 345 00:20:22,961 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 2: I think it's time to first recognize what you're saying, 346 00:20:26,441 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: that separation is the most dangerous time for women and 347 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,321 Speaker 2: put in place strategies that address that using best practice 348 00:20:33,321 --> 00:20:36,121 Speaker 2: and best technology. Let's put that all to one side 349 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 2: for a moment, because we tend to dehumanize victims in 350 00:20:38,921 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: this discussion. Tell me about Vicky as a person. 351 00:20:44,001 --> 00:20:46,241 Speaker 1: Well, Adam, it's quite remarkable. 352 00:20:47,041 --> 00:20:51,441 Speaker 4: The circumstances of Vicky's arrival in the world were like 353 00:20:51,721 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 4: magical in the Cleary clan, in that my mother had 354 00:20:57,241 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 4: four boys. The third boy died in infancy at about 355 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 4: forty eight hours on the planet. Mum had another boy. 356 00:21:06,561 --> 00:21:10,121 Speaker 4: She called that boy the same name Perry. And then 357 00:21:10,321 --> 00:21:14,801 Speaker 4: lo and behold, after the four boys, this little girl arrives. 358 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,161 Speaker 1: And it was so exciting that. 359 00:21:18,201 --> 00:21:22,961 Speaker 4: My mother's mother, Gladys, a working class factory girl from Brunswick, 360 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,761 Speaker 4: living with a former prisoner of war, writes a letter 361 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 4: and tells mom how excited she is about the birth 362 00:21:31,921 --> 00:21:36,801 Speaker 4: of the girl. So Vicky's arrival was very distinctive and unique, 363 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 4: and then she just blossomed into this energetic, lively young woman, 364 00:21:41,961 --> 00:21:44,281 Speaker 4: you know. And she and Mum got on so well. 365 00:21:44,321 --> 00:21:48,561 Speaker 4: They loved going out to white pot plants and flowers 366 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,801 Speaker 4: and the like, and they just were like two peas 367 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 4: in a pod, really. And so Vicky was lively in 368 00:21:56,001 --> 00:21:59,681 Speaker 4: that she played sports, She did all of these physical things, 369 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,761 Speaker 4: ran fast, and played with tennis and everything else. 370 00:22:03,801 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: So she was very distinctive character. 371 00:22:07,001 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 4: And it's really instructive that when I had played my 372 00:22:11,041 --> 00:22:14,161 Speaker 4: two hundredth game in nineteen eighty seven, she was there 373 00:22:14,201 --> 00:22:17,441 Speaker 4: with me. It was June, only a couple of months 374 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 4: and before she's murdered, and she came up into the 375 00:22:20,921 --> 00:22:24,761 Speaker 4: rooms after the game, my two hundredth game nineteen eighty seven. 376 00:22:25,001 --> 00:22:28,761 Speaker 4: She's twenty five, she separated from this bloke. She's really 377 00:22:28,801 --> 00:22:32,321 Speaker 4: happy about life, and she blew the candles out on 378 00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:35,041 Speaker 4: the cake, and I was just thinking. 379 00:22:34,921 --> 00:22:37,801 Speaker 1: How lucky I was to have her in my life. 380 00:22:38,521 --> 00:22:43,241 Speaker 4: You know. A time passed and six days before her murder, 381 00:22:43,561 --> 00:22:47,521 Speaker 4: she jumped off the Sydney Road tram, the famous number 382 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 4: ninety tram. She saw me crossing Sydney Road with my 383 00:22:51,241 --> 00:22:54,001 Speaker 4: two daughters, Sarah and Beth were about seven and six. 384 00:22:54,321 --> 00:22:57,161 Speaker 4: She jumped off the tram, ran through the car park, 385 00:22:57,241 --> 00:23:01,281 Speaker 4: yelling out Philip, Philip, and she stopped and talked to 386 00:23:01,321 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 4: my daughters, and we were having such a lively time. 387 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 4: I was so happy about the fact that she was 388 00:23:08,441 --> 00:23:12,041 Speaker 4: free of this bloke, but I didn't know about the 389 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 4: stalking and harassment she was enduring. But as a girl, 390 00:23:16,561 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 4: I mean, I miss her. She would have been such 391 00:23:18,961 --> 00:23:21,761 Speaker 4: a good auntie to my two daughters. And then I've 392 00:23:21,801 --> 00:23:24,721 Speaker 4: had two sons subsequently who've never met her. 393 00:23:24,961 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: But I should say this also. 394 00:23:27,001 --> 00:23:29,601 Speaker 4: You know, when we won the premiership in the VFA 395 00:23:29,721 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty eight, I spoke to the players a 396 00:23:33,961 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 4: year after Vicki's murder, and I said to them in 397 00:23:36,441 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 4: the Essendon Football Ground rooms, nothing would bring Vicki back, 398 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,841 Speaker 4: but a victory, a premiership would ease some of the 399 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,001 Speaker 4: pain that we'd endure it a year earlier and in 400 00:23:48,041 --> 00:23:52,041 Speaker 4: the committal hearing and behind me was the Prime Minister 401 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:52,961 Speaker 4: of Australia. 402 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: Robert J. Hawk. 403 00:23:56,321 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 4: Hawk came back into the rooms after the game and 404 00:23:59,201 --> 00:24:04,401 Speaker 4: told me how powerful the way I'd devote Vicki's image 405 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 4: and memory was, and he said to me, she must. 406 00:24:07,441 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: Have been a special girl. 407 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 4: So I suppose the point is, Adam, that there was 408 00:24:12,241 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 4: the Prime Minister of Australia being made aware of this girl, 409 00:24:16,921 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 4: Vicki Cleary. And now she's become emblematic of the campaign 410 00:24:21,521 --> 00:24:26,241 Speaker 4: to end violence against women. She's made her mark sadly 411 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 4: as a consequence of her murder, she's made a mark 412 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 4: as an emblem, a clarion call around the question of 413 00:24:34,521 --> 00:24:35,561 Speaker 4: violence against women. 414 00:24:35,801 --> 00:24:38,241 Speaker 1: But her memory lives on in that kind. 415 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,561 Speaker 4: Of Buddhist tradition and I love her for that, and 416 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 4: we talk about her all the time, every day. Every 417 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 4: week we're having a yarn with my having with my 418 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 4: sisters in particular and Lizzie, who you will talk to 419 00:24:50,961 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 4: in the second episode, So that was my sister Vicki. 420 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,801 Speaker 2: Tell me, what does Vicki's memory bring to your campaign 421 00:24:59,921 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 2: that's ongoing about making women safe? 422 00:25:03,761 --> 00:25:11,441 Speaker 4: Well, the his story is emblematic a representative of what drives. 423 00:25:11,041 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: Men's violence against women. That is, women. 424 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 4: Asserting their independence. What Vicky Cleary did was she pursued 425 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:24,161 Speaker 4: her independence. And every woman murdered in Australia and across 426 00:25:24,201 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 4: around the world by a man known to them is 427 00:25:26,801 --> 00:25:31,721 Speaker 4: murdered because she has asserted her independence. Overwhelmingly, that comes 428 00:25:31,761 --> 00:25:36,721 Speaker 4: in the form of separation. Woman leaves a man, Woman 429 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,281 Speaker 4: leaves a man and he kills her. Overwhelmingly, if you 430 00:25:40,321 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 4: go to the murders in Australia, they are in the 431 00:25:42,681 --> 00:25:43,801 Speaker 4: context of separation. 432 00:25:44,241 --> 00:25:46,281 Speaker 1: So Vicki is a symbol of that. 433 00:25:47,001 --> 00:25:51,641 Speaker 4: And equally she's also a symbol of the horrific nature 434 00:25:51,681 --> 00:25:55,801 Speaker 4: of the justice system historically and the way the society 435 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,481 Speaker 4: has responded to vannes against women. What the courts did, 436 00:25:59,521 --> 00:26:03,801 Speaker 4: what the law did to my sister Vicki was inhumane. 437 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,001 Speaker 1: It was disgrace. 438 00:26:05,681 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 4: It was barbaric to think that she would be accused 439 00:26:09,201 --> 00:26:12,801 Speaker 4: of provoking that man to kill her. The bloke who 440 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,761 Speaker 4: waited for an hour for her as she was parking 441 00:26:15,801 --> 00:26:21,481 Speaker 4: her car in Cameron Street, Coburg outside the kindergarten, is unbelievable. 442 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,521 Speaker 1: It deserves to be condemned. 443 00:26:23,561 --> 00:26:28,321 Speaker 4: So in Vicki's story is the whole story about violence 444 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:32,801 Speaker 4: against women, about men's desire to own women, to treat 445 00:26:32,801 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 4: women as channels patriarchal assumptions, and the state and the 446 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:42,321 Speaker 4: society's failure to properly address and affirm the rights of women. 447 00:26:42,761 --> 00:26:45,481 Speaker 1: So there you have it. It is all there. 448 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,201 Speaker 4: The Vicky Cleary story is a profound story about the 449 00:26:50,241 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 4: failure of the state and about the abuse by men, 450 00:26:54,801 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 4: the harassment by men, and the refusal of men in 451 00:26:57,801 --> 00:27:02,961 Speaker 4: contemporary times to accept a woman's right to independence. Look, Adam, 452 00:27:03,041 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 4: it's great to be having this conversation about Vicki and 453 00:27:06,961 --> 00:27:09,281 Speaker 4: the campaign to end violence against women. 454 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: It's been a long journey. 455 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 4: The great thing is that we are all talking about 456 00:27:14,201 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 4: the question as you are with me. I want to 457 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:20,721 Speaker 4: remind everyone that they can gather at the Coburg Ground 458 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,081 Speaker 4: on Sunday, May twenty fourth to remember Vicki and all 459 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 4: the women that we've lost to violent men, and to 460 00:27:28,721 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 4: build on the campaign that we've generated after the last 461 00:27:32,521 --> 00:27:34,041 Speaker 4: thirty forty fifty years. 462 00:27:38,761 --> 00:27:41,121 Speaker 2: That was Phil Cleary on the legacy of the late 463 00:27:41,241 --> 00:27:45,281 Speaker 2: Vicki Cleary his sister. Next episode, I'll be speaking to 464 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,761 Speaker 2: Vicky's younger sister, Lizzie Cleary, on the impact of losing 465 00:27:48,761 --> 00:27:49,361 Speaker 2: her sibling. 466 00:27:49,761 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 5: For them to see my sister, the way that she 467 00:27:53,201 --> 00:27:55,801 Speaker 5: was spoken about in the courts, pretty much saying that 468 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 5: she caused her. 469 00:27:56,561 --> 00:28:01,321 Speaker 2: Death, and how after nearly four decades she's finding her 470 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:02,761 Speaker 2: voice as an advocate. 471 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 5: I want to keep on telling their story and I 472 00:28:05,921 --> 00:28:08,521 Speaker 5: want to help other people out there want to help 473 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,481 Speaker 5: other women as well. 474 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 2: That's next time on Real Crime with Adam Shand thanks 475 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 2: for listening.