1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:15,921 Speaker 1: Apoche Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm 2 00:00:15,961 --> 00:00:16,961 Speaker 1: your host Adam Shand. 3 00:00:17,481 --> 00:00:20,641 Speaker 2: This is a special episode coming to you from Hiraris, Zimbabwe. 4 00:00:21,081 --> 00:00:23,561 Speaker 2: It deals with the topic we've touched on many times. 5 00:00:24,281 --> 00:00:27,801 Speaker 2: People affected by crime often deal with post traumatic stress injuries, 6 00:00:28,241 --> 00:00:34,441 Speaker 2: traumatic brain injuries, substance abuse, anxiety and depression. Experts warn 7 00:00:34,481 --> 00:00:37,961 Speaker 2: the hidden injuries of crime and conflict can last a lifetime, 8 00:00:38,361 --> 00:00:42,881 Speaker 2: with PTSD and brain trauma affecting thousands long after events end. 9 00:00:44,241 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 2: This includes law enforcement, victims of crime, and even the 10 00:00:47,521 --> 00:00:50,961 Speaker 2: perpetrators in some cases, even if we don't feel much. 11 00:00:50,801 --> 00:00:51,961 Speaker 1: Sympathy for them. 12 00:00:52,241 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: Sufferers live with their injuries for decades, medicated themselves with 13 00:00:55,961 --> 00:01:01,161 Speaker 2: pharmaceuticals both legal and illegal, and psychotherapy. Many are told 14 00:01:01,241 --> 00:01:04,561 Speaker 2: this will be their future and the lasting legacy of 15 00:01:04,601 --> 00:01:09,601 Speaker 2: their experiences a diminished quality of life. Many trauma sufferers 16 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,561 Speaker 2: report decades of medication use with limited long term relief. 17 00:01:14,241 --> 00:01:18,401 Speaker 1: For some, trauma becomes a life sentence. But what if 18 00:01:18,401 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: there was another way to deal with this? 19 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,001 Speaker 2: You may have seen a Netflix documentary called Waves and War, 20 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,121 Speaker 2: which came out in November twenty twenty five, about a 21 00:01:27,121 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 2: group of US Navy seals who underwent treatment with a 22 00:01:30,721 --> 00:01:35,041 Speaker 2: psychedelic drug called Ibergain to deal with their invisible injuries. 23 00:01:35,521 --> 00:01:37,401 Speaker 2: He was doing all the things he was told to 24 00:01:37,441 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: do and he was actually getting worse. Psychooic medicines proved 25 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,441 Speaker 2: to be effective, but both are illegal in the United States. 26 00:01:46,161 --> 00:01:49,561 Speaker 2: I began is just one of thirteen alkaloids found in Iboga, 27 00:01:49,681 --> 00:01:52,401 Speaker 2: and I was recently invited to a tender treatment retreat 28 00:01:52,481 --> 00:01:57,001 Speaker 2: here in Zimbabwe with three Australian Special Forces soldiers. The 29 00:01:57,041 --> 00:01:59,721 Speaker 2: difference here was the treatment was carried out with all 30 00:02:00,001 --> 00:02:02,681 Speaker 2: thirteen alkaloids of the Aboga bark. 31 00:02:03,281 --> 00:02:07,281 Speaker 1: This was not the fruit. This was the route practitioners worn. 32 00:02:07,321 --> 00:02:12,281 Speaker 2: The Ibergain treatment is intense, confronting and not suitable for everyone. 33 00:02:13,001 --> 00:02:14,841 Speaker 2: I was supposed to be there as a fly on 34 00:02:14,841 --> 00:02:17,561 Speaker 2: the wall, but I ended up taking Iberger and I 35 00:02:17,601 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 2: want to share with you the remarkable impact it had 36 00:02:20,561 --> 00:02:24,081 Speaker 2: on me, but also it's potential to assist in the 37 00:02:24,121 --> 00:02:27,721 Speaker 2: healing of deep seated trauma. My guest today is Lewis 38 00:02:27,721 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: and Bweller, who is an I Burger practitioner based in Zimbabwe, 39 00:02:31,201 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: who was my guide into this remarkable medicine. 40 00:02:34,601 --> 00:02:38,401 Speaker 1: Welcome to real crime Lewis. Thank you, Adam, thank you 41 00:02:38,401 --> 00:02:38,921 Speaker 1: for having me. 42 00:02:39,881 --> 00:02:42,281 Speaker 2: When you walked into a little cabin up in the 43 00:02:42,321 --> 00:02:45,281 Speaker 2: mountains at younger, I said to you, here was a 44 00:02:45,281 --> 00:02:47,801 Speaker 2: flyer on the wall, and you said, there were no 45 00:02:47,921 --> 00:02:51,041 Speaker 2: flies on the wall with this medicine. Why did you 46 00:02:51,081 --> 00:02:51,361 Speaker 2: say that? 47 00:02:52,361 --> 00:02:55,681 Speaker 3: Well, what I meant was the medicine immerses you into 48 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:57,201 Speaker 3: the whole process, you know. 49 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,801 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not just the medicine. You know. 50 00:02:59,841 --> 00:03:03,281 Speaker 3: What I delivered as well at night was what we 51 00:03:03,361 --> 00:03:06,441 Speaker 3: call the fire talk, which is lather fifty percent off 52 00:03:06,441 --> 00:03:10,601 Speaker 3: the healing. These are the teachings. Nothing you haven't heard before. 53 00:03:11,401 --> 00:03:15,041 Speaker 3: But I think what I meant was it becomes a 54 00:03:15,081 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 3: spiritual space. You know, we believe that we are spiritual 55 00:03:18,721 --> 00:03:23,481 Speaker 3: before we are physical, and it affects everybody. So definitely, 56 00:03:23,481 --> 00:03:25,081 Speaker 3: you couldn't just be a fly on the wall. 57 00:03:26,081 --> 00:03:27,881 Speaker 2: And I was quickly aware of that because we had 58 00:03:27,881 --> 00:03:29,921 Speaker 2: our three ex special Force of soldiers. I'm not going 59 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:31,321 Speaker 2: to use their names, by the way, in this because 60 00:03:31,321 --> 00:03:33,441 Speaker 2: I think it's for their privacy and I think it 61 00:03:33,481 --> 00:03:36,881 Speaker 2: doesn't really matter what their names are. So our three guys, 62 00:03:37,681 --> 00:03:42,321 Speaker 2: they had the medicine, and I could see vicariously what 63 00:03:42,441 --> 00:03:44,881 Speaker 2: was going on, and I could feel something of what 64 00:03:44,921 --> 00:03:48,601 Speaker 2: was happening in their lives at that moment, and I 65 00:03:48,721 --> 00:03:51,841 Speaker 2: quickly realized that this was like going to the beach 66 00:03:52,241 --> 00:03:54,721 Speaker 2: and not having a swim. So I decided to have 67 00:03:54,761 --> 00:03:57,561 Speaker 2: the medicine not the next night, but the following night. 68 00:03:58,281 --> 00:04:00,361 Speaker 2: We'll talk about the effects of that, but let's quickly 69 00:04:00,401 --> 00:04:03,841 Speaker 2: deal with the difference between iber Gain and Iboga as 70 00:04:03,881 --> 00:04:04,241 Speaker 2: we had it. 71 00:04:04,361 --> 00:04:05,041 Speaker 1: What is the difference. 72 00:04:06,121 --> 00:04:11,081 Speaker 3: Iboga comes from Gabon. These are from pretty much the 73 00:04:11,161 --> 00:04:15,081 Speaker 3: forests of northern Congo into Gabon and south of Cameroon. 74 00:04:15,881 --> 00:04:19,801 Speaker 3: The medicine grows deeply along the equator in Africa, and 75 00:04:19,921 --> 00:04:22,241 Speaker 3: as we've learned and as it's been passed on from 76 00:04:22,281 --> 00:04:26,721 Speaker 3: generation to generation, the custodians of this medicine are the 77 00:04:26,801 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 3: wheaty we also know as the pigmies. And this medicine 78 00:04:31,761 --> 00:04:36,001 Speaker 3: has been used since millennia for healing, for ceremony, and 79 00:04:36,761 --> 00:04:39,801 Speaker 3: when the medicine was created, when the tree of Iboga's created, 80 00:04:40,001 --> 00:04:44,001 Speaker 3: addiction wasn't there. So they only use it purely for 81 00:04:44,161 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 3: self mastery, to know about life, about nature, and to 82 00:04:48,281 --> 00:04:51,641 Speaker 3: connect with themselves deeply, which we rarely do in our 83 00:04:51,641 --> 00:04:56,561 Speaker 3: current lives. So Iboga itself comes from a very short 84 00:04:56,601 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 3: bushy tree. The medicine of iboga comes from the bark. 85 00:05:01,401 --> 00:05:06,521 Speaker 3: The root bark now iber gain is an extraction off 86 00:05:06,561 --> 00:05:10,921 Speaker 3: this buk. Buk itself carries thirteen alkaloids, as you mentioned earlier, 87 00:05:11,561 --> 00:05:14,921 Speaker 3: and one of the strong ones is i begin, which 88 00:05:14,921 --> 00:05:19,041 Speaker 3: has a very strong effect on receptors that effect anything 89 00:05:19,081 --> 00:05:23,361 Speaker 3: you're addicted to. That's the difference. Clinically, it's been used 90 00:05:23,721 --> 00:05:26,801 Speaker 3: specifically for addictions in the West and many other parts 91 00:05:26,801 --> 00:05:30,521 Speaker 3: of the world, but we have traditionally just kept it 92 00:05:30,561 --> 00:05:32,081 Speaker 3: as authentic as we can. 93 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,041 Speaker 1: We work with the Baccali right, and that's the difference. 94 00:05:35,121 --> 00:05:36,881 Speaker 2: And for those who don't know about it, and you 95 00:05:36,921 --> 00:05:38,841 Speaker 2: can look at the documentary on Netflix and you get 96 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:40,041 Speaker 2: more insight on what's going on there. 97 00:05:40,041 --> 00:05:41,201 Speaker 1: But it's in a clinical setting. 98 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,521 Speaker 2: It's still a controlled drug in the US, so it's 99 00:05:43,561 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 2: done in Mexico and people are going into clinics they're 100 00:05:46,201 --> 00:05:50,041 Speaker 2: having the treatment plus magnesium to counteract any issues with 101 00:05:50,081 --> 00:05:53,161 Speaker 2: the heart. But what you're talking about is a return 102 00:05:53,361 --> 00:05:56,841 Speaker 2: to the traditional approach to it that happens in Gabond 103 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,041 Speaker 2: with the Buitty people, and you talk about the other 104 00:06:01,121 --> 00:06:07,681 Speaker 2: alkaloids in iboga being the spiritual ones I began is 105 00:06:07,761 --> 00:06:10,961 Speaker 2: one element, but what's going on with those spiritual alcohoids. 106 00:06:11,561 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 3: So with all the alkaloids, they affect both the physical 107 00:06:15,001 --> 00:06:18,161 Speaker 3: and the spiritual. What you have done is you've removed 108 00:06:18,201 --> 00:06:23,601 Speaker 3: one and other twelve are missing. So sometimes you don't 109 00:06:23,641 --> 00:06:27,801 Speaker 3: get a full authentic experience. There's some things that are missing. 110 00:06:28,081 --> 00:06:31,401 Speaker 3: You don't want to get a full spiritual healing. And 111 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,961 Speaker 3: some of the aspects we're dealing with are more spiritual 112 00:06:34,001 --> 00:06:37,681 Speaker 3: than physical. So when we work with the raw bark, 113 00:06:38,001 --> 00:06:40,481 Speaker 3: we allow the medicine to go where it's supposed to go, 114 00:06:41,281 --> 00:06:43,361 Speaker 3: to work on the physical aspects and to work on 115 00:06:43,401 --> 00:06:46,441 Speaker 3: the spiritual aspects that have affected us over our lives. 116 00:06:47,281 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 3: And the results of that are they're more and I 117 00:06:52,241 --> 00:06:56,121 Speaker 3: think everyone deserves to get a full experience off the medicine. 118 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,561 Speaker 3: I am not ruling out how much you know, I 119 00:06:58,681 --> 00:07:03,681 Speaker 3: begain clinically has done well for people. It's done extremely well, 120 00:07:04,281 --> 00:07:06,921 Speaker 3: and I think it's bonus. And I think you know, 121 00:07:06,961 --> 00:07:09,841 Speaker 3: some of these treatments work differently for for different people. 122 00:07:10,441 --> 00:07:13,321 Speaker 3: It's brilliant what you know scientists have managed to do 123 00:07:13,441 --> 00:07:17,041 Speaker 3: with it. We've just decided we've just kept it as 124 00:07:17,521 --> 00:07:20,681 Speaker 3: traditional and we served the medicine out of respect as 125 00:07:20,681 --> 00:07:24,281 Speaker 3: well for the medicine itself and for the custodians of 126 00:07:24,281 --> 00:07:25,641 Speaker 3: this medicine. 127 00:07:25,761 --> 00:07:31,081 Speaker 2: And IB again has now undergone some clinical studies Stanford University. 128 00:07:31,161 --> 00:07:33,441 Speaker 2: I think is something else happening in Texas at the moment, 129 00:07:33,841 --> 00:07:37,961 Speaker 2: and they are getting remarkable results with traumatic brain injuries 130 00:07:38,521 --> 00:07:42,281 Speaker 2: with PTSD, with substance abuse, and it is slowly coming 131 00:07:42,321 --> 00:07:45,121 Speaker 2: on the radar. So folks, if you're listening, this is 132 00:07:45,161 --> 00:07:47,521 Speaker 2: not a psychedelic drug you take can go to the 133 00:07:47,561 --> 00:07:48,801 Speaker 2: disco and dance all night. 134 00:07:49,041 --> 00:07:51,881 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's not that at all. This is medicine. 135 00:07:52,201 --> 00:07:54,921 Speaker 2: And I guess I could take you through what I 136 00:07:54,961 --> 00:07:58,801 Speaker 2: saw and what I experienced. I saw the guys going 137 00:07:58,801 --> 00:08:06,281 Speaker 2: into themselves, having intense internal dialogue with themselves, seeing some visions, 138 00:08:07,121 --> 00:08:09,121 Speaker 2: seeing some and they did it over two weeks. I 139 00:08:09,161 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: did for one night, so my experience is quite limited. 140 00:08:11,601 --> 00:08:14,001 Speaker 2: But what I saw. First off, I had pins and 141 00:08:14,041 --> 00:08:18,321 Speaker 2: needles down my arms and legs. I began to feel 142 00:08:18,321 --> 00:08:20,521 Speaker 2: a little bit nauseous. I thought, if I can keep 143 00:08:20,521 --> 00:08:22,321 Speaker 2: this down a long enough, it'll be good. And I 144 00:08:22,321 --> 00:08:25,921 Speaker 2: didn't really see any visual hallucinations or anything. But what 145 00:08:25,961 --> 00:08:30,201 Speaker 2: I did see when I closed my eyes was green places, 146 00:08:30,601 --> 00:08:35,521 Speaker 2: ponds with lily pads and beautiful soft surroundings. But then 147 00:08:35,561 --> 00:08:38,921 Speaker 2: they would sort of stand up vertically become wallpaper, and 148 00:08:38,961 --> 00:08:43,681 Speaker 2: I was moving through these layers of wallpaper. Then my 149 00:08:43,801 --> 00:08:46,161 Speaker 2: legs went very wobbly. I could hardly stand up. I 150 00:08:46,161 --> 00:08:49,161 Speaker 2: felt like my souls had become round, and I thought 151 00:08:49,441 --> 00:08:52,321 Speaker 2: I better lie down here, and so I did lie down, 152 00:08:52,481 --> 00:08:55,761 Speaker 2: and at a certain point I started to see words, 153 00:08:56,241 --> 00:08:59,601 Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of words. I was coming so fast 154 00:08:59,601 --> 00:09:02,921 Speaker 2: I couldn't read them in different fonts and typefaces. And 155 00:09:02,961 --> 00:09:05,801 Speaker 2: I thought, let's let this happen, but fearful. 156 00:09:05,561 --> 00:09:06,641 Speaker 1: In the beginning, you know. 157 00:09:07,481 --> 00:09:10,361 Speaker 2: And then I suddenly realized that these were my own words. 158 00:09:10,961 --> 00:09:11,761 Speaker 1: I've been a. 159 00:09:11,801 --> 00:09:15,881 Speaker 2: Journalists for forty years, and I suddenly realized, Wow, there's 160 00:09:15,921 --> 00:09:19,161 Speaker 2: I'm looking into my own psyche. And then I started 161 00:09:19,201 --> 00:09:22,681 Speaker 2: to see like reptile eyes. 162 00:09:23,721 --> 00:09:25,361 Speaker 1: That was a bit scary. Out of this thing. 163 00:09:25,401 --> 00:09:28,681 Speaker 2: I suddenly a reptile eye would come and what I also, 164 00:09:29,441 --> 00:09:32,721 Speaker 2: anyone familiar with tacolashes in African culture, I thought, what 165 00:09:32,761 --> 00:09:34,961 Speaker 2: I said, I'm seeing what I thought were tacoloshes, you know, 166 00:09:35,681 --> 00:09:39,841 Speaker 2: little stout strong a bit with this kind of crazy 167 00:09:39,921 --> 00:09:41,641 Speaker 2: leering smiles and things like that. 168 00:09:41,441 --> 00:09:43,201 Speaker 1: That was a bit out of control in my opinion. 169 00:09:44,001 --> 00:09:48,241 Speaker 2: But then as it evolved, I started seeing images of 170 00:09:48,241 --> 00:09:50,481 Speaker 2: a lady I've just started seeing, and it was like 171 00:09:50,481 --> 00:09:54,561 Speaker 2: a photo stream, like a thousand pictures of flash face, face, flace, face, 172 00:09:54,601 --> 00:10:00,241 Speaker 2: flas face, every single expression, every mood until the final one, 173 00:10:00,281 --> 00:10:02,841 Speaker 2: which sort of stopped there was with her with this 174 00:10:02,921 --> 00:10:07,721 Speaker 2: lovely contented smile on her face, and I'm focusing on 175 00:10:07,761 --> 00:10:09,241 Speaker 2: that one. 176 00:10:09,801 --> 00:10:10,721 Speaker 1: But it was a. 177 00:10:10,681 --> 00:10:12,761 Speaker 2: Tremendous and you know, just to finish off. And then 178 00:10:12,761 --> 00:10:14,081 Speaker 2: I had a certain point, I said, I've just got 179 00:10:14,121 --> 00:10:14,641 Speaker 2: to go to sleep. 180 00:10:14,761 --> 00:10:14,961 Speaker 1: You know. 181 00:10:15,041 --> 00:10:17,201 Speaker 2: Well I didn't sleep, actually, but I separate myself from 182 00:10:17,201 --> 00:10:19,121 Speaker 2: everybody else and just kind of go with it. And 183 00:10:19,161 --> 00:10:21,321 Speaker 2: I felt terrible. The next day, I felt absolutely terrible. 184 00:10:21,681 --> 00:10:25,561 Speaker 2: I purged numerous times. I both ends. This is someone 185 00:10:25,601 --> 00:10:27,761 Speaker 2: called it a soul ass kicking. I just as a 186 00:10:27,761 --> 00:10:30,281 Speaker 2: body ass kicker as well. And I got back to 187 00:10:30,281 --> 00:10:33,241 Speaker 2: town the following day and I was feeling better. But 188 00:10:33,281 --> 00:10:37,281 Speaker 2: the next day I felt absolutely fantastic, and I could 189 00:10:37,361 --> 00:10:41,761 Speaker 2: see some of the attachments that I'd had previously were looser. 190 00:10:42,481 --> 00:10:44,041 Speaker 2: But the most remarkable thing to me, I had a 191 00:10:44,121 --> 00:10:46,321 Speaker 2: knee injury. I'm going on here, listeners, you'll have to 192 00:10:46,321 --> 00:10:48,681 Speaker 2: be with me, but I think this is useful. I 193 00:10:48,721 --> 00:10:51,001 Speaker 2: had a knee injury that I've been carrying for several months, 194 00:10:51,241 --> 00:10:54,841 Speaker 2: but also an upper respiratory kind of inflammation which came 195 00:10:54,921 --> 00:10:56,201 Speaker 2: up on scans, even because. 196 00:10:55,961 --> 00:10:57,401 Speaker 1: I had bronchittess and things. 197 00:10:57,441 --> 00:11:00,201 Speaker 2: Anyway, and the following days after that, my inflammation in 198 00:11:00,281 --> 00:11:05,721 Speaker 2: my body seemed to go and my knee is actually fixed. Remarkable. 199 00:11:06,041 --> 00:11:07,641 Speaker 2: I don't think it's magic. I think it's actually a 200 00:11:07,721 --> 00:11:10,761 Speaker 2: lessening of inflammation. And also my upper respiratory issues are 201 00:11:10,801 --> 00:11:13,361 Speaker 2: also fixed. So I had a prety positive experience from 202 00:11:13,401 --> 00:11:17,521 Speaker 2: one from one, so my eyes and ears are definitely 203 00:11:17,801 --> 00:11:20,961 Speaker 2: open to its potential as a medicine. And I also 204 00:11:21,081 --> 00:11:26,001 Speaker 2: saw the way that you approached it as Yes, the 205 00:11:26,041 --> 00:11:29,201 Speaker 2: traditional atmosphere around it. You had music and you had 206 00:11:29,201 --> 00:11:32,721 Speaker 2: your garb, and it was very much in an African tradition, 207 00:11:33,641 --> 00:11:37,121 Speaker 2: but there were clinical safeguards with it. Yes, you take 208 00:11:37,161 --> 00:11:40,241 Speaker 2: this seriously. This is not just a voodoo juju moment. 209 00:11:40,721 --> 00:11:44,001 Speaker 2: This is something steeped in your own experience. How the 210 00:11:44,041 --> 00:11:45,401 Speaker 2: hell did you get involved in this? 211 00:11:47,921 --> 00:11:50,401 Speaker 3: That's a beautiful question, but I just want to add 212 00:11:50,441 --> 00:11:53,601 Speaker 3: on to what you said earlier. It Bill has not 213 00:11:53,921 --> 00:11:59,721 Speaker 3: a recreational experience. You cannot be addicted to it simply 214 00:11:59,761 --> 00:12:04,601 Speaker 3: because of its nature. It's a very intimate and a 215 00:12:04,721 --> 00:12:11,281 Speaker 3: very serious medicine. And I think you know what I 216 00:12:11,281 --> 00:12:15,521 Speaker 3: wilways try to do is to educate people about the medicine. 217 00:12:14,601 --> 00:12:18,601 Speaker 3: I have these sit downs with all the clients, with 218 00:12:18,681 --> 00:12:23,761 Speaker 3: everyone who's keen to go into this process, to prepare them, 219 00:12:23,961 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 3: but also to educate because once you're in that process, 220 00:12:27,841 --> 00:12:31,641 Speaker 3: you realize that it's not recreational, it's very intimate, it's 221 00:12:31,761 --> 00:12:36,881 Speaker 3: very serious. Iboga's one intention is truth. It goes to 222 00:12:36,921 --> 00:12:39,241 Speaker 3: the truth. So the pins and needles that you're experiencing, 223 00:12:39,881 --> 00:12:44,361 Speaker 3: that's the medicine, scanning, scanning every fiber, every cell in 224 00:12:44,401 --> 00:12:48,761 Speaker 3: your body. It will intelligently know when you suffered pain 225 00:12:48,841 --> 00:12:51,641 Speaker 3: when you're five years old, what's happening with your liver, 226 00:12:51,721 --> 00:12:55,361 Speaker 3: what's happening with inflammation in different parts of your body. 227 00:12:55,761 --> 00:12:59,241 Speaker 3: And it starts to do the work slowly. Then it 228 00:12:59,281 --> 00:13:03,081 Speaker 3: goes to your mind and it flips through all the files. 229 00:13:03,521 --> 00:13:06,201 Speaker 3: It does what is called a life view, not from 230 00:13:06,201 --> 00:13:08,721 Speaker 3: the day you're born, but from the day you're concede 231 00:13:09,481 --> 00:13:12,721 Speaker 3: because there's so much that happens to us while we're 232 00:13:12,761 --> 00:13:17,241 Speaker 3: in our mother's roombs that affects us. So I just 233 00:13:17,281 --> 00:13:19,721 Speaker 3: wanted to touch on that, on how the medicine is 234 00:13:19,761 --> 00:13:25,001 Speaker 3: actually working. And yeah, my journey with with with with 235 00:13:25,041 --> 00:13:29,121 Speaker 3: the medicine of fiboga I come from, you know, seventeen 236 00:13:29,201 --> 00:13:33,561 Speaker 3: years of addiction to alcohol. I did experiment with other substances, 237 00:13:33,961 --> 00:13:37,281 Speaker 3: but alcohol became my go to. There was a lot 238 00:13:37,321 --> 00:13:41,641 Speaker 3: of pain in that journey and at some point I 239 00:13:41,681 --> 00:13:45,081 Speaker 3: threw in the towel and you know, rescue came and 240 00:13:45,601 --> 00:13:49,481 Speaker 3: I started a recovery journey. And just through that time, 241 00:13:49,601 --> 00:13:53,201 Speaker 3: I started to explore, you know, my spiritual side. I 242 00:13:53,241 --> 00:13:57,321 Speaker 3: started to dream. I started to be curious about, you know, 243 00:13:57,881 --> 00:14:00,521 Speaker 3: what's going on with the spirit what's my truth about 244 00:14:00,561 --> 00:14:05,401 Speaker 3: the spirit world. And after visiting two very hippie friends 245 00:14:05,401 --> 00:14:08,201 Speaker 3: of mine who are on some plant medicine journey, you know, 246 00:14:08,241 --> 00:14:10,041 Speaker 3: at the time, I thought they were crazy, you know, 247 00:14:10,161 --> 00:14:12,401 Speaker 3: and they just suggested, you know, Louis, you're doing a 248 00:14:12,401 --> 00:14:15,241 Speaker 3: lot of work in the recovery space. You're working with people. 249 00:14:15,961 --> 00:14:18,401 Speaker 3: You know, there's a medicine that we have discovered that 250 00:14:18,441 --> 00:14:22,401 Speaker 3: we are on that we feel might benefit you. And 251 00:14:22,401 --> 00:14:25,281 Speaker 3: that kind of threw me into an Iboga retreat, you know, 252 00:14:25,361 --> 00:14:26,441 Speaker 3: the very following week. 253 00:14:27,881 --> 00:14:29,641 Speaker 1: My first experience with. 254 00:14:29,441 --> 00:14:33,481 Speaker 3: Iboga was you know, and I will say this countless times, 255 00:14:34,001 --> 00:14:41,441 Speaker 3: was overwhelmingly magical. It was overwhelmingly magical because the medicine 256 00:14:41,481 --> 00:14:44,881 Speaker 3: was able to not only physically go to places in me, 257 00:14:44,961 --> 00:14:48,681 Speaker 3: but I'd say visually, I had. 258 00:14:48,521 --> 00:14:51,481 Speaker 1: A very beautiful journey where. 259 00:14:51,321 --> 00:14:54,841 Speaker 3: I was shown who I truly am, because that has 260 00:14:54,921 --> 00:14:57,761 Speaker 3: always been my question, who am i? You know, what 261 00:14:57,761 --> 00:15:00,041 Speaker 3: am I doing on this beautiful green earth? And where 262 00:15:00,041 --> 00:15:02,121 Speaker 3: am I going? And I think this is one of 263 00:15:02,121 --> 00:15:05,001 Speaker 3: the biggest questions that everyone, a lot of people asked 264 00:15:05,041 --> 00:15:08,001 Speaker 3: struggling with. You know, people are making lots of money, 265 00:15:08,241 --> 00:15:11,281 Speaker 3: you know, they're so successful, but they're still not happy. 266 00:15:11,281 --> 00:15:16,241 Speaker 3: They're not connected with the plan, with the purpose. So 267 00:15:17,441 --> 00:15:19,961 Speaker 3: coming out of that experience, for me, you know, it 268 00:15:20,121 --> 00:15:25,721 Speaker 3: left me bewildered, confused, like what is this medicine? Where 269 00:15:25,761 --> 00:15:30,881 Speaker 3: is it from? So my curiosity really pushed me. I 270 00:15:30,961 --> 00:15:34,481 Speaker 3: did months and months of research. I wanted to know 271 00:15:34,561 --> 00:15:37,401 Speaker 3: the source. I wanted to know, you know, the carriers 272 00:15:37,401 --> 00:15:40,121 Speaker 3: of this medicine. Who are they and what kind of 273 00:15:40,161 --> 00:15:44,681 Speaker 3: people are they? So connected me to Gabon and I 274 00:15:44,801 --> 00:15:49,441 Speaker 3: found these charmans and specifically attend Generation Charman, you know, 275 00:15:49,521 --> 00:15:53,201 Speaker 3: and I found his number, connected with them. He became 276 00:15:53,281 --> 00:15:55,401 Speaker 3: like a brother and I finally asked him, you know, 277 00:15:55,441 --> 00:15:57,201 Speaker 3: I'd love to come to Gabon and I'd love you 278 00:15:57,241 --> 00:16:00,161 Speaker 3: to train me how to work with this medicine. But 279 00:16:00,241 --> 00:16:02,201 Speaker 3: at the back of my head, I wanted to go 280 00:16:02,241 --> 00:16:05,961 Speaker 3: and confirm could this be that thing I was born 281 00:16:06,041 --> 00:16:11,481 Speaker 3: to do? So with no French, because you know West 282 00:16:11,521 --> 00:16:13,321 Speaker 3: Africa's Francophone. 283 00:16:13,521 --> 00:16:14,081 Speaker 1: I was on a. 284 00:16:14,001 --> 00:16:17,401 Speaker 3: Plane to Gabon and I went there and I spent 285 00:16:17,601 --> 00:16:21,561 Speaker 3: a couple of months, which was the most intense process 286 00:16:21,681 --> 00:16:25,681 Speaker 3: I've ever embarked on. It was tough, it was intense, 287 00:16:25,761 --> 00:16:29,601 Speaker 3: but it was such a gift because I connected with 288 00:16:29,681 --> 00:16:33,201 Speaker 3: the medicine of Iboga. I connected with the wheaty and 289 00:16:33,401 --> 00:16:36,601 Speaker 3: realized it's more than just a plant. When they look 290 00:16:36,641 --> 00:16:39,881 Speaker 3: at the jungle, they say, that's our pharmacy. We get 291 00:16:39,921 --> 00:16:41,921 Speaker 3: our food from there, we get our medicine from me. 292 00:16:42,841 --> 00:16:46,241 Speaker 3: And I also learned that iboga is not just for healing. 293 00:16:46,561 --> 00:16:48,321 Speaker 3: You know, the healing is something we need to get 294 00:16:48,361 --> 00:16:50,841 Speaker 3: out of the way real quick. You know, life is 295 00:16:50,881 --> 00:16:53,761 Speaker 3: not a healing journey. We have to live. We're here 296 00:16:53,801 --> 00:16:57,401 Speaker 3: to live life. That opened my mind to a lot, 297 00:16:57,521 --> 00:17:01,961 Speaker 3: and as I was on this course, I kept on, 298 00:17:02,361 --> 00:17:06,761 Speaker 3: you know, thinking there's so many like mere there, friends, family, 299 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,041 Speaker 3: or just people I know who were addicted to something. 300 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,761 Speaker 3: And those definitely were not addicted to anything. But we're 301 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,001 Speaker 3: just lost and we're trying to find themselves. But here's 302 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 3: one medicine that allows you to go within, to really look, 303 00:17:23,521 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 3: because what we're actually looking for is right here, It's. 304 00:17:27,521 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: Right within us. That's true. I think it's absolutely true. 305 00:17:31,321 --> 00:17:35,721 Speaker 2: And I think people have related to say marijuana as 306 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 2: another sacred plant medicine that can give them peace of mind, 307 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: in sight some of the things you're talking about. But 308 00:17:43,921 --> 00:17:45,961 Speaker 2: in my own case, I've been a weed smoker for years, 309 00:17:46,001 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 2: and I think it was a habit growing up, and 310 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 2: I decided that it was better than alcohol because I've 311 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 2: seen what had happened in my family various parts with alcohol. 312 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,281 Speaker 1: I thought that was the thing, But over time it. 313 00:17:56,201 --> 00:18:00,041 Speaker 2: Became a crutch and then particularly during times of stress. 314 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: In recent years, it actually flipped to something else completely. 315 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: And we talked about different states of these plant medicines, 316 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:09,961 Speaker 2: and a lot of people listening will be using marijuana 317 00:18:10,041 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 2: right now. And something you said to me is that 318 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,761 Speaker 2: when you put fire to marijuana, it changes its status. 319 00:18:17,041 --> 00:18:21,961 Speaker 3: What happens, so, fire is an element, it's got its 320 00:18:21,961 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 3: own life. If we were to put a live flame 321 00:18:25,241 --> 00:18:28,001 Speaker 3: on your skin, you're going to feel it. 322 00:18:28,001 --> 00:18:28,801 Speaker 1: It's going to burn. 323 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 3: And the medicine of marijuana, it's medicine, it's an herb. 324 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 3: Now applying another element of fire on it, it does 325 00:18:38,681 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 3: shift the nature of the medicine. If we were to 326 00:18:42,241 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 3: put a burning flame onto volga and consume it, the 327 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 3: nature of the plant of the medicine doesn't remain the same. 328 00:18:49,921 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 3: It goes into for the purpose of the conversation, into 329 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:58,241 Speaker 3: his alter ego and it becomes another nature, which. 330 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,521 Speaker 2: In the case of marijuana, is a possible mood swings 331 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:03,281 Speaker 2: even anger. 332 00:19:03,241 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: Even anger. 333 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:08,281 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's a lot of attachments and detachment as well, 334 00:19:08,321 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 3: and detachment as well, you know, you know, it's so 335 00:19:11,561 --> 00:19:13,961 Speaker 3: interesting you say this because I've sat down with a 336 00:19:14,001 --> 00:19:18,201 Speaker 3: lot of elders, who are you know, spiritual healers, sharmans, 337 00:19:18,761 --> 00:19:23,921 Speaker 3: and they speak about understanding the nature, understanding the medicine, 338 00:19:23,961 --> 00:19:29,081 Speaker 3: the plant, Okay, And they're different uses. Now, if you're 339 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,121 Speaker 3: going to take it recreationally, there's an effect. But if 340 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:38,521 Speaker 3: you're taking it purely for healing, for consciousness, you're not 341 00:19:38,561 --> 00:19:41,281 Speaker 3: going to spend the whole day smoking joint after joint 342 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 3: after joint after joint. You know, maybe all you actually 343 00:19:44,961 --> 00:19:47,961 Speaker 3: need are you know, two or three puffs? Because there 344 00:19:48,041 --> 00:19:51,761 Speaker 3: is a spiritual element to all nature, to all plants, 345 00:19:52,521 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 3: and you know, are you going excessive? 346 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,801 Speaker 1: You know? What's the intention? We all speak about intention 347 00:19:57,921 --> 00:19:58,961 Speaker 1: when we when. 348 00:19:58,761 --> 00:20:02,521 Speaker 3: We sit with the boga, as with many medicines, because 349 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:09,441 Speaker 3: all medicines have physical healing elements, some have spiritual healing elements, 350 00:20:09,721 --> 00:20:13,001 Speaker 3: and some are just purely for spiritual discovery. 351 00:20:13,041 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: You have to know. 352 00:20:15,041 --> 00:20:18,201 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, you know, we're in a world where we don't 353 00:20:18,281 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 3: ask questions, We don't seek these these questions about what 354 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 3: is the nature of the mushroom, what is the nature 355 00:20:28,681 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 3: of ayahuaska, what is the nature of iboga? And am 356 00:20:32,241 --> 00:20:35,921 Speaker 3: I taking it through physical healing only? What do I need? 357 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,881 Speaker 3: We go into all these processes and there's a massive 358 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 3: plant medicine tourism going on out there where we are 359 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,681 Speaker 3: taking multiple medicines. These are all beautiful medicines, but what's 360 00:20:49,721 --> 00:20:53,041 Speaker 3: the intention? Are you not crossing, you know, addicting yourself 361 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 3: to to the medicines because I want to be super clean, 362 00:20:58,001 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 3: super conscious, But the medicines are also carrying their own intentions. 363 00:21:04,441 --> 00:21:08,041 Speaker 3: And then but what is the one nature for you? 364 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,881 Speaker 3: What is the intention for you? What are you seeking? 365 00:21:11,521 --> 00:21:11,801 Speaker 1: Right? 366 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,481 Speaker 2: And what we've seen with marijuana, without digressing too much, 367 00:21:14,721 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: I think is an important point. 368 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: What we've seen in marijuana and Australia. 369 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 2: It's become a highly commercial illegal drug which under hydroponic 370 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,521 Speaker 2: conditions have grown very quickly, many crops per year, and 371 00:21:26,521 --> 00:21:32,801 Speaker 2: it's becoming the cash flow for other illegal activities, particularly 372 00:21:32,921 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 2: myth and things like that. So and people talk about 373 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,681 Speaker 2: the strength of that marijuana now is much much higher 374 00:21:39,721 --> 00:21:41,681 Speaker 2: than it was in the past or what you would 375 00:21:41,681 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: find naturally occurring. So it's causing a lot of issues 376 00:21:44,721 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: for people, the chemicals used around it, plus some of 377 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 2: the issues that you talk about. So people are finding 378 00:21:49,921 --> 00:21:52,041 Speaker 2: they call it a green smack is one of the 379 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:55,041 Speaker 2: terms for it in Australia these days. So I think 380 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,321 Speaker 2: it's been derailed and I think it's a problem for 381 00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 2: people and those listening out that wh've got a problem 382 00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 2: with pots do something about it. Because the returns are diminishing, 383 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:06,801 Speaker 2: there's no doubt, and I think to refocus around the 384 00:22:06,801 --> 00:22:07,721 Speaker 2: intention of it. 385 00:22:08,321 --> 00:22:10,161 Speaker 1: So you've dealt with all. 386 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 2: These sorts of issues, I'm sure hanging a little bit here, 387 00:22:12,481 --> 00:22:16,281 Speaker 2: and you've set up your practice in Zimbabwe. Correct what 388 00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,321 Speaker 2: kinds of people are you treating now with eboga? 389 00:22:20,721 --> 00:22:27,401 Speaker 3: Everyone is suffering from an illness of the mind, trauma, PTSD, 390 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 3: substance abuse, depression, and some are just seeking to self master. 391 00:22:36,921 --> 00:22:40,841 Speaker 3: It's different cases, but at the top of it, it's 392 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,721 Speaker 3: an illness of the mind. The human kind in today's 393 00:22:44,761 --> 00:22:48,441 Speaker 3: world is suffering from the illness of the mind. Some 394 00:22:48,481 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 3: of us who get on, you know, antidepressants, some will 395 00:22:52,321 --> 00:22:55,721 Speaker 3: you find whatever substance, but it is to try and 396 00:22:56,041 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 3: quieten the noise, and it's not working. And what we 397 00:22:59,921 --> 00:23:04,561 Speaker 3: do we try and put more and more, take more medications, 398 00:23:05,201 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 3: seek the strongest drug, the strongest train of anything in 399 00:23:10,281 --> 00:23:12,521 Speaker 3: the Wheaty teaching is they try to simplify a lot 400 00:23:12,561 --> 00:23:16,961 Speaker 3: of these things. And we speak about nature and that 401 00:23:17,041 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 3: nature has two conditions. Don't abuse it, don't attach you know. 402 00:23:21,281 --> 00:23:24,481 Speaker 3: That's why we try not to manipulate plants. We try 403 00:23:24,521 --> 00:23:29,961 Speaker 3: not to attach ourselves to them, and it becomes easier 404 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 3: for us. But we always find the you know, we 405 00:23:33,481 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 3: always want the hard way, you know. But predominantly I 406 00:23:37,481 --> 00:23:40,881 Speaker 3: would say it's people that have just gone through, you know, 407 00:23:40,921 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 3: a tough experience of life. We're not taking breaks to 408 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,041 Speaker 3: process and just you know, cut off what's not working, 409 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 3: what's not serving you well. And this is the work 410 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,041 Speaker 3: that we're doing here in Zibabwe. And we've opened up 411 00:23:55,120 --> 00:24:00,120 Speaker 3: the space too pretty much locals, internationals, young and old. 412 00:24:00,961 --> 00:24:04,201 Speaker 3: It's a medicine that requires a very strict protocol. Some 413 00:24:04,241 --> 00:24:08,121 Speaker 3: people are not they don't qualify as good candidates, so 414 00:24:08,921 --> 00:24:13,401 Speaker 3: we do stay away from certain cases. And yeah, it's 415 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 3: a very strict screening process because in that space there's 416 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 3: so much going on to the body, to the mind, 417 00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:25,281 Speaker 3: to the heart. So I do take very very strong 418 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:29,561 Speaker 3: precautions with every individual, including. 419 00:24:29,201 --> 00:24:33,241 Speaker 2: ECGs with the heart, because I know in Mexico with ebagaine, 420 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,761 Speaker 2: they are getting it with magnesium to address any possible 421 00:24:37,001 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 2: and I think people should always consult physicians and do 422 00:24:39,201 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 2: their due diligence and all that sort of stuff. In 423 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 2: the case of the guys that you work with on 424 00:24:43,761 --> 00:24:46,601 Speaker 2: this trip, they were guys. 425 00:24:46,441 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 4: Who had been in Iraq and Afghanistan, had been in 426 00:24:49,281 --> 00:24:54,161 Speaker 4: very vivid, dramatic traumatic situations, and they were using ketamine, yes, 427 00:24:54,561 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 4: which is freely available almost about the world. 428 00:24:57,360 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: I was amazed to hear how available it is actually now. 429 00:24:59,721 --> 00:25:01,521 Speaker 2: Were using that as a way of going into what 430 00:25:01,561 --> 00:25:04,521 Speaker 2: they called airplane mode God and their patrols in the 431 00:25:04,521 --> 00:25:07,281 Speaker 2: streets of Dad or Kabul or whatever, and then come 432 00:25:07,321 --> 00:25:10,521 Speaker 2: home and take the ketamine and just cease to be 433 00:25:10,561 --> 00:25:12,481 Speaker 2: who they were for that period of time, then wake 434 00:25:12,561 --> 00:25:15,641 Speaker 2: up in the morning do it all again. How long 435 00:25:15,681 --> 00:25:18,761 Speaker 2: can you do that sort of thing without, I guess, 436 00:25:19,321 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: detaching from your reality in a way, And how do 437 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 2: you deal with that beyond those experiences? And a lot 438 00:25:25,201 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: of police officers I know have done exactly the same 439 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,561 Speaker 2: thing with alcohol or prescription drugs or whatever it is. 440 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,401 Speaker 2: So what I saw there was that one of our 441 00:25:34,441 --> 00:25:37,041 Speaker 2: guys had done it before, and he'd seized his kedamene 442 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,441 Speaker 2: use instantly. He still had more issused to deal with 443 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,681 Speaker 2: another chap. Former Army medic was deep into the antidepressant regime, 444 00:25:45,721 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 2: had ceased those anty depressants weeks before, was extremely dizzy 445 00:25:50,241 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 2: and was ruminating about everything in his past and I 446 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,761 Speaker 2: couldn't believe how many people he'd saved and all the 447 00:25:56,801 --> 00:25:59,521 Speaker 2: positive things that he'd done in his career. He also 448 00:25:59,521 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 2: worked with the ambulance service as well in New South Wales, 449 00:26:02,201 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: which is and I thought, this guy's a glutton for punishment, 450 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,041 Speaker 2: but he could not say all the good things in 451 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,281 Speaker 2: his service in his life. And I think talking to 452 00:26:13,321 --> 00:26:15,001 Speaker 2: him now, I think he's been able to get some 453 00:26:15,041 --> 00:26:18,281 Speaker 2: distance and some insight having gone through the treatment. 454 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll definitely say all the three gentlemen that were 455 00:26:23,681 --> 00:26:29,041 Speaker 3: in our retreat recently did extremely well. I think all 456 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:33,321 Speaker 3: three of them went through one of the toughest, you know. 457 00:26:33,441 --> 00:26:35,321 Speaker 1: Life experiences I've ever heard. 458 00:26:36,281 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 3: And I think in our journey, we you know, we 459 00:26:40,441 --> 00:26:44,521 Speaker 3: decided we were gonna scrape off layer by layer. 460 00:26:44,921 --> 00:26:46,961 Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't all have to happen at once. 461 00:26:47,801 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 3: It's a huge chunk of trauma that they were sitting on, 462 00:26:51,241 --> 00:26:54,161 Speaker 3: but bravely so, you know, they showed up with such 463 00:26:54,201 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 3: authenticity and willingness. That's what the medicine looks at, you know, 464 00:26:59,201 --> 00:27:02,721 Speaker 3: is their willingness to let go, let go of the pain, 465 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 3: let go of not loving yourself, you know, hating yourself. 466 00:27:09,041 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 3: And I think it allows medicine to go, you know, 467 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,881 Speaker 3: into the mind and start to delete certain files that 468 00:27:17,921 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 3: we've been so attached to because those life experiences, we 469 00:27:22,561 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 3: tend to make them our not only our reality, but 470 00:27:26,001 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 3: our identity. But that's not who you are. You're a 471 00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 3: paramedic in the military. You are there to serve and 472 00:27:32,721 --> 00:27:36,801 Speaker 3: you're saving so many people's lives. But you know, whatever 473 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 3: you take on, that's not you, that's the residue. 474 00:27:40,721 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: From the work. 475 00:27:41,961 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 3: But when you allow those attachments to affect your daily 476 00:27:44,921 --> 00:27:48,561 Speaker 3: life and you know you cannot sleep at night, you 477 00:27:48,681 --> 00:27:53,441 Speaker 3: keep staying locked into what happened, you know how it happened, 478 00:27:53,561 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 3: and you know why it happened. Maybe in some cases 479 00:27:57,201 --> 00:28:01,481 Speaker 3: you're blaming yourself that story. When it goes into a loop, 480 00:28:01,801 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 3: it becomes you know, mainly sleepless nights. It's not eating well, 481 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 3: not looking after yourself, and you know you're probably on 482 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 3: so many vendors, you know, on and off you're slowly 483 00:28:15,041 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 3: killing yourself, you know. So when we sit with the Boga, 484 00:28:19,521 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 3: we take a pause, a very deep pause, and like 485 00:28:23,521 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 3: you're saying earlier, you know, you're seeing very different you know, visuals, pictures. 486 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 3: That's the medicine, going through your files and also seeing 487 00:28:32,721 --> 00:28:36,401 Speaker 3: what files are not supposed to be here and slowly 488 00:28:36,441 --> 00:28:39,041 Speaker 3: deleting some of them and showing you what to focus 489 00:28:39,081 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 3: on the things that really matter. It sounds magical, you know, 490 00:28:43,241 --> 00:28:45,601 Speaker 3: when you're speaking to someone who has not done this before. 491 00:28:46,201 --> 00:28:48,921 Speaker 3: But it's as real. And I think one of the 492 00:28:48,961 --> 00:28:52,081 Speaker 3: things that it's taught me is plants are real. 493 00:28:52,761 --> 00:28:55,761 Speaker 2: Of course they are, you know. And my dad was 494 00:28:55,761 --> 00:28:57,761 Speaker 2: a psychiatrist. I'm always reminding the listeners of that. I 495 00:28:57,761 --> 00:28:59,961 Speaker 2: feel like this is therapy in some ways, this podcast. 496 00:29:00,481 --> 00:29:03,561 Speaker 2: But he worked in John Hopkins University in Baltimore in 497 00:29:03,561 --> 00:29:07,641 Speaker 2: the late fifties. It's psilocybin mushrooms as a way of 498 00:29:08,321 --> 00:29:12,641 Speaker 2: addressing depression, and there was great hope and expectation about psilocybin, 499 00:29:12,761 --> 00:29:14,921 Speaker 2: and of course the War on Drugs happened and this 500 00:29:15,081 --> 00:29:19,401 Speaker 2: was now regarded as something illegal and dangerous and so forth, 501 00:29:19,441 --> 00:29:21,601 Speaker 2: and I think he felt a certain shame that he 502 00:29:21,641 --> 00:29:23,881 Speaker 2: hadn't been involved, and it hardly talked about it ever again. 503 00:29:24,001 --> 00:29:26,041 Speaker 2: But here we are now in twenty twenty six and 504 00:29:26,081 --> 00:29:29,041 Speaker 2: psilocybin is back on the therapeutic list. People in our 505 00:29:29,081 --> 00:29:32,001 Speaker 2: experimenting and so I think we people's eyes are being 506 00:29:32,041 --> 00:29:34,561 Speaker 2: open to this and it's far beyond a recreational thing. 507 00:29:35,601 --> 00:29:39,401 Speaker 2: We are seeing transformations. And you've called it magic. I 508 00:29:39,401 --> 00:29:41,401 Speaker 2: don't want to call it magic because it sort of 509 00:29:41,401 --> 00:29:44,321 Speaker 2: diminishes it into something that's I think people have preconceptions 510 00:29:44,321 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 2: about Africa generally and level of civilization and blah blah 511 00:29:48,001 --> 00:29:48,281 Speaker 2: like that. 512 00:29:48,361 --> 00:29:50,401 Speaker 1: So I want to put it in the. 513 00:29:50,361 --> 00:29:54,361 Speaker 2: Space so it is medicine, and it does also what 514 00:29:54,441 --> 00:29:57,281 Speaker 2: good cognitive therapy will do as well, where people can 515 00:29:57,761 --> 00:30:01,081 Speaker 2: get a safe space where they can account their inventory 516 00:30:01,081 --> 00:30:05,041 Speaker 2: of experiences in emotions and find a way forward. 517 00:30:05,841 --> 00:30:08,241 Speaker 1: I'm skeptical only. 518 00:30:08,041 --> 00:30:12,481 Speaker 2: To this extent about it that can it transform someone 519 00:30:12,521 --> 00:30:17,401 Speaker 2: overnight or can it help them accept their issues and 520 00:30:17,561 --> 00:30:20,961 Speaker 2: have some insight to do the work which will ultimately 521 00:30:21,641 --> 00:30:22,681 Speaker 2: address their problems. 522 00:30:22,721 --> 00:30:26,161 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Am I being too cautious? I 523 00:30:26,201 --> 00:30:27,161 Speaker 1: think you're being real. 524 00:30:27,761 --> 00:30:30,241 Speaker 3: A lot of us want a quick fix out there, 525 00:30:31,001 --> 00:30:35,001 Speaker 3: and iboga is not a quick fix. It opens you 526 00:30:35,121 --> 00:30:37,041 Speaker 3: up to the reality. It opens you up to the 527 00:30:37,081 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 3: truth and once you've been open to the truth, the 528 00:30:40,761 --> 00:30:42,041 Speaker 3: next thing is to face it. 529 00:30:43,041 --> 00:30:44,041 Speaker 1: You know what to let go. 530 00:30:44,241 --> 00:30:49,921 Speaker 3: Then you're making decisions so apart from feeling and going 531 00:30:49,961 --> 00:30:54,001 Speaker 3: through the pins and needles, but you are actually being 532 00:30:54,161 --> 00:30:58,721 Speaker 3: brought right in front of your live TV that you've 533 00:30:58,721 --> 00:31:02,801 Speaker 3: been running from in such a gentle and loving way, 534 00:31:03,001 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 3: a nature way, and it puts you on a journey. 535 00:31:05,961 --> 00:31:09,521 Speaker 3: But now you have the tools, and I think a 536 00:31:09,561 --> 00:31:12,041 Speaker 3: lot of us don't have tools. Not that we want 537 00:31:12,081 --> 00:31:14,121 Speaker 3: to stay in a depressed state. It's not that we 538 00:31:14,161 --> 00:31:17,041 Speaker 3: don't want to stop drinking alcohol excessively, we don't want 539 00:31:17,081 --> 00:31:21,001 Speaker 3: to stop the drugs, but we lack the tools. And 540 00:31:21,361 --> 00:31:23,921 Speaker 3: not everyone wants to go to rehab. Not everyone wants 541 00:31:23,961 --> 00:31:28,281 Speaker 3: to go through a clinical process. So out of whatever 542 00:31:28,361 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 3: stigma or you know, whatever the reason may be, it 543 00:31:32,321 --> 00:31:34,681 Speaker 3: sets you on a journey. It's not a quick fix, 544 00:31:35,041 --> 00:31:37,841 Speaker 3: but it just gets you on a real path. Eboga 545 00:31:37,881 --> 00:31:42,841 Speaker 3: medicine is a serious medicine and it confronts everything that 546 00:31:42,921 --> 00:31:47,681 Speaker 3: you feel you cannot confront or you don't want to confront. Hence, 547 00:31:47,721 --> 00:31:51,641 Speaker 3: I prepare people that this is a serious process, you know, 548 00:31:51,721 --> 00:31:56,401 Speaker 3: and it has to be taken as serious. I always 549 00:31:56,441 --> 00:31:59,161 Speaker 3: give this picture that sitting with the Boga is like 550 00:31:59,201 --> 00:32:02,281 Speaker 3: sitting with your great great great grandfather or your great 551 00:32:02,281 --> 00:32:06,281 Speaker 3: great grandmother. They're not here to you know, play with 552 00:32:06,321 --> 00:32:11,121 Speaker 3: you and about very serious issues that are affecting your family, yourself, 553 00:32:11,241 --> 00:32:14,041 Speaker 3: your future, the generation. They're going to tell you like 554 00:32:14,121 --> 00:32:17,161 Speaker 3: it is. Googa is very direct. It will show you 555 00:32:17,241 --> 00:32:22,041 Speaker 3: like it is. And you know, I see people sometimes 556 00:32:22,081 --> 00:32:26,521 Speaker 3: they struggle with the truth, but in such a gentle way. 557 00:32:26,641 --> 00:32:29,281 Speaker 3: And I always get these calls even six months after 558 00:32:29,921 --> 00:32:33,121 Speaker 3: someone is set in ceremony with me and they tell me, 559 00:32:33,241 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 3: Lewis I get it. The medicine just showed me something. 560 00:32:36,921 --> 00:32:40,161 Speaker 3: You know it now it makes sense. It's so intelligent. 561 00:32:40,321 --> 00:32:43,601 Speaker 3: It will know what you're ready to see and deal 562 00:32:43,641 --> 00:32:47,041 Speaker 3: with now and what you're not. But again it comes, 563 00:32:47,081 --> 00:32:50,761 Speaker 3: you know, with are you willing, you know, to start 564 00:32:50,881 --> 00:32:51,921 Speaker 3: that journey. 565 00:32:52,601 --> 00:32:53,961 Speaker 1: Yes, it's definitely a reckoning. 566 00:32:54,801 --> 00:32:56,401 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say it's a dark knight of the soul, 567 00:32:56,481 --> 00:32:58,601 Speaker 2: but it certainly, I mean, they're not the first night 568 00:32:59,041 --> 00:33:01,641 Speaker 2: when we're up in this remote cabin in the mountains 569 00:33:01,681 --> 00:33:04,841 Speaker 2: and the winds blowing and the rhine's pouring, it's coming 570 00:33:04,841 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 2: out of the door. It was very dramatic scene, lightning 571 00:33:07,561 --> 00:33:11,361 Speaker 2: flashing outside the whole thing. Oh my goodness, you come 572 00:33:11,401 --> 00:33:12,241 Speaker 2: with your own light show. 573 00:33:12,281 --> 00:33:17,641 Speaker 1: You know. It's fear, and we're all afraid, you know. 574 00:33:17,721 --> 00:33:20,401 Speaker 3: And I only say to them, Okay, why don't we 575 00:33:20,481 --> 00:33:24,281 Speaker 3: talk about what we're actually afraid of and what's on 576 00:33:24,321 --> 00:33:27,241 Speaker 3: the other side of the fear. It's your piece, it's 577 00:33:27,281 --> 00:33:30,961 Speaker 3: your joy, it's you feeling a peace of mind. 578 00:33:32,481 --> 00:33:36,481 Speaker 2: Tell me what are the the most cherished moments you've 579 00:33:36,521 --> 00:33:40,121 Speaker 2: had dealing with patients that I guess typify what this 580 00:33:40,241 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 2: medicine is all about. 581 00:33:41,801 --> 00:33:46,481 Speaker 3: I think most cherish moments would be Yes, someone who's 582 00:33:46,521 --> 00:33:49,081 Speaker 3: almost you know, who's just giving up on their life. 583 00:33:49,121 --> 00:33:54,801 Speaker 3: And you know, I remember she said to me, Lewis, 584 00:33:54,841 --> 00:33:58,441 Speaker 3: this is my last stop. I've bought a nine millimeter 585 00:33:58,561 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 3: gun and then I'm going to kill myself, so this 586 00:34:02,281 --> 00:34:06,921 Speaker 3: is my last stop. And I said to Okay, let's go. 587 00:34:08,481 --> 00:34:11,361 Speaker 3: And she spent a week with me. You know, it's 588 00:34:12,481 --> 00:34:15,201 Speaker 3: it's a very emotional story for me because it's been 589 00:34:15,201 --> 00:34:17,641 Speaker 3: a beautiful journey to watch. It's not easy for her, 590 00:34:18,921 --> 00:34:21,321 Speaker 3: but she showed up not just for herself but for 591 00:34:21,361 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 3: her children, and she gave it one hundred percent. And 592 00:34:26,201 --> 00:34:30,401 Speaker 3: I saw a surrender every day, every moment, just surrender 593 00:34:31,041 --> 00:34:35,001 Speaker 3: a lot. So there's lots of tears, lots of lots 594 00:34:35,001 --> 00:34:38,641 Speaker 3: of sobbing, and she made it to the other side. 595 00:34:38,721 --> 00:34:41,921 Speaker 3: She's still here doing amazing. You know, We're working on 596 00:34:42,361 --> 00:34:44,601 Speaker 3: so many other areas of her life. But these are 597 00:34:44,641 --> 00:34:46,921 Speaker 3: things that I work upon. I ask him, you know, 598 00:34:47,001 --> 00:34:49,241 Speaker 3: are you are you more at peace? Are you more happy? 599 00:34:49,281 --> 00:34:52,321 Speaker 3: And she says, my children are. So what fulfills me more. 600 00:34:52,361 --> 00:34:54,681 Speaker 3: It's not just the people that I work with, but 601 00:34:54,841 --> 00:34:58,961 Speaker 3: seeing how their families benefit from their loved ones coming back. 602 00:34:59,521 --> 00:35:03,761 Speaker 3: And they're more sane, they're more at peace, they're more present. 603 00:35:05,161 --> 00:35:07,401 Speaker 3: Just being present. That's a huge thing. 604 00:35:07,481 --> 00:35:09,761 Speaker 2: I mean, I know plenty of police officers who I 605 00:35:09,841 --> 00:35:12,241 Speaker 2: deal with and come on the show as well, who 606 00:35:12,281 --> 00:35:14,921 Speaker 2: still struggle. One guy's turning eighty now and he still 607 00:35:14,921 --> 00:35:18,201 Speaker 2: has night terrors about the time he shot a suspect. 608 00:35:18,681 --> 00:35:20,321 Speaker 2: His wife can't sleep in the same bed because he 609 00:35:20,361 --> 00:35:23,681 Speaker 2: strikes out another night, and it's still affecting every aspect. 610 00:35:23,881 --> 00:35:27,601 Speaker 2: And he's one of the most brave, wonderful human beings 611 00:35:28,041 --> 00:35:32,521 Speaker 2: who just can't shake off his experience in the service. 612 00:35:33,241 --> 00:35:34,521 Speaker 1: And one thing also, which. 613 00:35:34,361 --> 00:35:37,321 Speaker 2: Is a I think is very relevant in the recent experience, 614 00:35:37,401 --> 00:35:40,961 Speaker 2: is one of the guys there was treated unfairly in 615 00:35:41,041 --> 00:35:42,961 Speaker 2: his job, which exacerbated the. 616 00:35:42,881 --> 00:35:45,481 Speaker 1: PTSD symptoms from his service. 617 00:35:45,521 --> 00:35:47,441 Speaker 2: He's thinking, I did all these things for the people, 618 00:35:47,561 --> 00:35:50,041 Speaker 2: for all these people I saved, then I get treated 619 00:35:50,081 --> 00:35:53,081 Speaker 2: like this by my superiors, and his sense of worth 620 00:35:53,281 --> 00:35:56,721 Speaker 2: just caved in through that. I really hope in his 621 00:35:56,841 --> 00:35:59,681 Speaker 2: case that that's going to be addressed, and his feelings 622 00:35:59,681 --> 00:36:00,041 Speaker 2: of anger. 623 00:36:00,081 --> 00:36:04,161 Speaker 1: But I think that's common to many, particularly. 624 00:36:03,761 --> 00:36:06,161 Speaker 2: Police for but I've also known criminal There's one guy 625 00:36:06,161 --> 00:36:08,681 Speaker 2: who is he interviewed recently, who was he didn't robbery 626 00:36:09,001 --> 00:36:10,921 Speaker 2: on an airport, trying to steal bags of money, and 627 00:36:10,961 --> 00:36:12,801 Speaker 2: he's almost shot dead. He was shot in the shelves, 628 00:36:12,801 --> 00:36:14,561 Speaker 2: shot in the back, and he should have died. He 629 00:36:14,641 --> 00:36:16,721 Speaker 2: lives with that trauma every day, you know. And yeah, 630 00:36:16,761 --> 00:36:18,121 Speaker 2: she can say you don't feel sorry for him, but 631 00:36:18,601 --> 00:36:20,681 Speaker 2: when you look at the ripple effect in his life 632 00:36:20,721 --> 00:36:22,801 Speaker 2: and he's still trying. He said to me in our interview, 633 00:36:23,121 --> 00:36:26,281 Speaker 2: I just want to feel like a good person, you know. 634 00:36:26,361 --> 00:36:27,721 Speaker 1: I think we all want to feel like that. 635 00:36:28,401 --> 00:36:31,161 Speaker 3: We all want to feel like that, and we don't 636 00:36:31,161 --> 00:36:34,881 Speaker 3: know the full story of anyone until you know, we 637 00:36:34,961 --> 00:36:38,001 Speaker 3: really sat with them and you know, and you ask, 638 00:36:38,241 --> 00:36:40,321 Speaker 3: you know, what went wrong? When did it go wrong? 639 00:36:41,001 --> 00:36:44,601 Speaker 3: Some people starts from childhood, you know. Some people grew 640 00:36:44,681 --> 00:36:48,281 Speaker 3: up with no parents, with no support and they had 641 00:36:48,281 --> 00:36:51,761 Speaker 3: to find their own way, and it starts there. 642 00:36:51,961 --> 00:36:52,161 Speaker 1: You know. 643 00:36:53,241 --> 00:36:56,001 Speaker 3: That's what I love about this medicine. It goes to 644 00:36:56,081 --> 00:36:59,881 Speaker 3: the route when did things go wrong? You know, you 645 00:36:59,921 --> 00:37:01,961 Speaker 3: don't just wake up, you know, and you're stealing bags 646 00:37:01,961 --> 00:37:05,041 Speaker 3: of money at an airport. Something went wrong somewhere. Let's 647 00:37:05,161 --> 00:37:08,921 Speaker 3: go and have that conversation. You can only heal from 648 00:37:08,921 --> 00:37:12,721 Speaker 3: the route. So it's not just you know about the incident, 649 00:37:12,801 --> 00:37:14,281 Speaker 3: what happened five years ago? 650 00:37:14,801 --> 00:37:16,561 Speaker 1: You know, maybe let's talk about the child or what 651 00:37:16,681 --> 00:37:18,081 Speaker 1: was happening at home. Maybe there was. 652 00:37:18,121 --> 00:37:21,481 Speaker 3: Chaos at home where your father and mother were not 653 00:37:21,721 --> 00:37:24,601 Speaker 3: you know, the relationship wasn't good, and it affects children. 654 00:37:25,321 --> 00:37:28,281 Speaker 3: And when a child has no support, they don't feel 655 00:37:28,401 --> 00:37:31,881 Speaker 3: love and they're not getting you know, some of the 656 00:37:31,921 --> 00:37:36,761 Speaker 3: basic emotional support. Just being listened to, how do we 657 00:37:36,841 --> 00:37:41,041 Speaker 3: expect that person to be a fully present and you know, 658 00:37:41,201 --> 00:37:47,161 Speaker 3: functioning effectively adult. So just looking at you know, where 659 00:37:47,201 --> 00:37:48,441 Speaker 3: we are as human beings. 660 00:37:48,441 --> 00:37:50,161 Speaker 1: We are struggling. 661 00:37:51,481 --> 00:37:54,481 Speaker 3: You know, when you look at everything we've discussed, PTSD, 662 00:37:54,601 --> 00:37:57,841 Speaker 3: the depression, you know, whatever traumas, it comes back to 663 00:37:57,921 --> 00:37:58,761 Speaker 3: the mind. 664 00:37:59,041 --> 00:37:59,641 Speaker 1: It really does. 665 00:37:59,721 --> 00:38:02,721 Speaker 2: Another example, actually, a friend of mine has a podcast 666 00:38:02,721 --> 00:38:05,001 Speaker 2: called The Clink Brent Simpson. Check it out. It's fantastic. 667 00:38:05,601 --> 00:38:10,121 Speaker 2: Brent was sexually abused as a child severely and had 668 00:38:10,121 --> 00:38:13,321 Speaker 2: no sense of safety at home, ended up as a criminal, 669 00:38:13,401 --> 00:38:16,041 Speaker 2: went into the outlaw Biki scene, got out of that, 670 00:38:16,641 --> 00:38:20,521 Speaker 2: but was now seeking a way to purge himself of 671 00:38:20,521 --> 00:38:23,761 Speaker 2: all his experiences. In his way was incredible feats of 672 00:38:23,881 --> 00:38:27,561 Speaker 2: endurance and strength where he rode a bicycle across Australia. 673 00:38:28,601 --> 00:38:29,681 Speaker 1: Crazy. You know, I did that. 674 00:38:30,121 --> 00:38:32,041 Speaker 2: And he's doing other things on marathon running and all 675 00:38:32,041 --> 00:38:34,921 Speaker 2: that sort of stuff, and I love him, but he's 676 00:38:34,961 --> 00:38:38,161 Speaker 2: constantly still seeking, and I think as soon as he 677 00:38:38,241 --> 00:38:41,121 Speaker 2: slows down, those negative feelings catch up with him again. 678 00:38:41,201 --> 00:38:44,201 Speaker 2: So he's a hide and seek, chased me sort of situation. 679 00:38:44,281 --> 00:38:47,081 Speaker 2: And I think some people like that and they're looking 680 00:38:47,081 --> 00:38:50,161 Speaker 2: for something and they've been through everything. They've been through everything, 681 00:38:50,441 --> 00:38:53,721 Speaker 2: and we have all these diagnoses now of attention deficit 682 00:38:53,801 --> 00:38:57,961 Speaker 2: disorder and anxiety and stress and things, and we medicate 683 00:38:58,041 --> 00:39:00,361 Speaker 2: for those things without ever getting to the source. 684 00:39:00,361 --> 00:39:01,521 Speaker 1: And I really feel. 685 00:39:01,241 --> 00:39:05,601 Speaker 2: And I again I think will be regarded as something 686 00:39:05,641 --> 00:39:09,841 Speaker 2: that is a new pathway. I sound like an evangelist 687 00:39:09,841 --> 00:39:12,641 Speaker 2: for this, but having read the material as well, not 688 00:39:12,721 --> 00:39:14,601 Speaker 2: just for what you tell it, read the material as well, 689 00:39:15,361 --> 00:39:20,081 Speaker 2: seeing the documentary, this does offer something for people across 690 00:39:20,121 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 2: the spectrum. 691 00:39:21,801 --> 00:39:22,241 Speaker 1: It does. 692 00:39:22,721 --> 00:39:25,401 Speaker 3: I think, you know, when people are open to it, 693 00:39:26,241 --> 00:39:30,161 Speaker 3: and you know they're open to to going through you 694 00:39:30,201 --> 00:39:32,921 Speaker 3: know what we call the deep dive. You know, the 695 00:39:32,961 --> 00:39:36,401 Speaker 3: research that is being extensively done now is showing it. 696 00:39:37,241 --> 00:39:39,721 Speaker 3: And yeah, like I wouldys say to people, you know, 697 00:39:39,801 --> 00:39:42,121 Speaker 3: when when the time has come for you, you know, 698 00:39:42,201 --> 00:39:46,921 Speaker 3: and you really get that opportunity to sit with iboga, 699 00:39:47,001 --> 00:39:50,481 Speaker 3: to sit with ayahuasca, you know, anything that can just 700 00:39:50,601 --> 00:39:54,761 Speaker 3: take you to your truth and just process. It's so 701 00:39:54,881 --> 00:39:57,921 Speaker 3: hard for us to move forward when we have that 702 00:39:58,121 --> 00:40:01,921 Speaker 3: process what happened in the past and making a decision 703 00:40:02,121 --> 00:40:05,161 Speaker 3: to let it go or keeping it. 704 00:40:05,161 --> 00:40:06,201 Speaker 1: It's hard to move forward. 705 00:40:07,321 --> 00:40:11,161 Speaker 3: And I think, you know, these medicines I borg have 706 00:40:11,201 --> 00:40:14,641 Speaker 3: been one of them, are such brilliant gifts from nature 707 00:40:14,681 --> 00:40:17,161 Speaker 3: that are here to help us as long as we 708 00:40:17,201 --> 00:40:17,641 Speaker 3: are willing. 709 00:40:18,081 --> 00:40:18,481 Speaker 1: Yeah. 710 00:40:18,721 --> 00:40:20,921 Speaker 2: I think that people are willing to now take this 711 00:40:20,961 --> 00:40:23,641 Speaker 2: step because they've tried everything else and it's not working 712 00:40:23,681 --> 00:40:26,041 Speaker 2: for them. So we could talk all day about this, 713 00:40:26,481 --> 00:40:28,481 Speaker 2: but I think you talk about a deep dive. I'll 714 00:40:28,481 --> 00:40:31,241 Speaker 2: call it a shallow dive, and one one night. So 715 00:40:31,401 --> 00:40:35,601 Speaker 2: I'm keen to explore this further with you looking forward 716 00:40:35,601 --> 00:40:38,401 Speaker 2: to it. Yeah, and take it again, and it'll be 717 00:40:38,401 --> 00:40:41,241 Speaker 2: an honor as Luis, thank you, And I think it's 718 00:40:41,281 --> 00:40:43,041 Speaker 2: got a lot to offer people. So I think i'd 719 00:40:43,121 --> 00:40:45,001 Speaker 2: like to be able to take this back home and 720 00:40:45,041 --> 00:40:48,761 Speaker 2: talk to my friends who've been involved in these violent, dangerous, 721 00:40:48,801 --> 00:40:52,561 Speaker 2: dramatic moments that they can I'm speaking to you guys 722 00:40:52,601 --> 00:40:52,881 Speaker 2: right now. 723 00:40:52,921 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: You know who I'm talking about. 724 00:40:54,041 --> 00:40:56,201 Speaker 2: There's probably half a dozen people I'm talking to right 725 00:40:56,241 --> 00:40:59,001 Speaker 2: now that you need to accept that what you did 726 00:40:59,121 --> 00:41:02,121 Speaker 2: was heroic and virtuous, and you served your community, and 727 00:41:02,161 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 2: it's time that you got to come home, love yourself more, 728 00:41:06,281 --> 00:41:09,601 Speaker 2: spend the rest of your days in contentment. I think 729 00:41:09,601 --> 00:41:12,161 Speaker 2: this is something to explore. Let's leave it there, Lewis. 730 00:41:12,201 --> 00:41:15,041 Speaker 2: It's been absolute pleasure talking to you. I'se thank you, 731 00:41:19,241 --> 00:41:22,721 Speaker 2: It's Lewis and bueller there. We'll put some links in 732 00:41:22,761 --> 00:41:25,841 Speaker 2: the show notes where you can look at more resources 733 00:41:25,841 --> 00:41:28,921 Speaker 2: to understand this more fully, but do your own research, 734 00:41:29,641 --> 00:41:32,881 Speaker 2: check it out, ask questions. But I think also don't 735 00:41:32,961 --> 00:41:37,041 Speaker 2: just accept that your trauma is your life sentence. Something 736 00:41:37,041 --> 00:41:38,281 Speaker 2: else you can do, and I think this is a 737 00:41:38,281 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 2: good example of it. So I'm also very happy to 738 00:41:41,641 --> 00:41:43,761 Speaker 2: talk to people. If you want to contact me Adam 739 00:41:43,761 --> 00:41:46,921 Speaker 2: Shann writer at gmail dot com and your experiences of trauma, 740 00:41:47,241 --> 00:41:50,201 Speaker 2: I'll try to direct you to Lewis talk through whether 741 00:41:50,201 --> 00:41:52,601 Speaker 2: this might be something for you, but also want to 742 00:41:52,601 --> 00:41:55,441 Speaker 2: hear your stories. That's what this podcast is all about. 743 00:41:55,481 --> 00:41:58,081 Speaker 2: So Adam Shann, writer at gmail dot com. If you 744 00:41:58,121 --> 00:42:01,401 Speaker 2: want to report a crime, please call Crimestoppers. Wanted to 745 00:42:01,401 --> 00:42:03,761 Speaker 2: have a triple three, triple zero. Man not trust the 746 00:42:03,801 --> 00:42:06,801 Speaker 2: police though, so I'll talk you through it and we'll 747 00:42:06,841 --> 00:42:09,721 Speaker 2: get some confidential assistance for you. Thank you once again 748 00:42:09,761 --> 00:42:12,201 Speaker 2: for listening. This has been Adam shanf for Real Crime