Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another instorm and of
Speaker 1: the show. It's Tiffany and Cook. It's Professor William Sullivan Junior.
Speaker 1: We're going to call him that. It's me, Craig Anthony Harper,
Speaker 1: the bloody buffed from Latro Valley who just keeps turning
Speaker 1: up every day to do this. We'll start with the lady.
Speaker 1: I use the term reservedly because she does. She's looking around.
Speaker 1: She's looking around?
Speaker 2: Is that me or is it today?
Speaker 3: You're a lady, You're a lady.
Speaker 1: We know you're a lady, tiff That is Monday, eleven
Speaker 1: thirty four in the am. How's your weekend being? Did
Speaker 1: you have a good weekend? What have you got on
Speaker 1: this week?
Speaker 2: Had a great weekend, got out on the bike. It
Speaker 2: was really sunny. That made me happy. Then it rained
Speaker 2: for a lot and that didn't make me happy.
Speaker 4: All the things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell all the lady listeners, of which is most
Speaker 1: of our audience. For some strange reason, what attracts you
Speaker 1: about riding a motorbike that will go zero to one hundred,
Speaker 1: or in doctor Bill's language, zero to sick in three seconds?
Speaker 1: What is it about you that high octane high horse
Speaker 1: power vehicles do for the lady that is you.
Speaker 2: It's visceral, it's tactile, it's sensory, and it shuts out
Speaker 2: everything else you got. There's not many things that can
Speaker 2: give you enough to feel and see and experience and
Speaker 2: focus on that can shut out all the other noise.
Speaker 2: There's boxing. Boxing. Was that for me and the motorcycle?
Speaker 4: I love it, especially when.
Speaker 2: I got that exhaust last year. Harps, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3: Wow, wow, that's it's all about the sound.
Speaker 1: Well, the power and the speed and the acceleration are good,
Speaker 1: but when it sounds like a fucking mobile like volcano
Speaker 1: as well, when you got that little bit of do
Speaker 1: you know what's interesting? Doctor Bill can tell us why
Speaker 1: this happens, but like what will be for you? Almost
Speaker 1: like a hypnotic calming. You know, everyone knows I ride
Speaker 1: motorbikes as well, but for me, I'm almost in my
Speaker 1: happiest place when I'm on a motorbike, which for someone
Speaker 1: else will be their most stressful place. Isn't it funny
Speaker 1: how you can have a person on the front who's
Speaker 1: producing you know, dopamine and bloody, all the good stuff, right,
Speaker 1: and then someone sitting on the back on the same day,
Speaker 1: on the same motorbike going to the same place. Who's
Speaker 1: in a complete state of stress and anxiety and panic.
Speaker 2: When I'm going really fast within the speed limit. Of course,
Speaker 2: of course, sometimes I just squeal under my helm. I'll
Speaker 2: get that excited. I just squeal. It's the best, the
Speaker 2: best feeling.
Speaker 1: I do that, But for different reasons, Doctor Bill, what
Speaker 1: are your what's your take on all of this drivel?
Speaker 4: I guess when I was young, I would be the
Speaker 4: same way. You're kind of more adventurous, and you have
Speaker 4: more of a you know, a reckless spirit, and you
Speaker 4: really start to feel more alive, you know, when you
Speaker 4: kind of risk your life a little bit, or you
Speaker 4: know there's a danger there, just the emotions get so palpable.
Speaker 4: Then I think people realize that, hey, I'm living a
Speaker 4: life here and it can actually end. So maybe you
Speaker 4: get some enjoyment from that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that fine line between absolute ecstasy and it
Speaker 1: sounds weird, but like when you're on a motorbike, there's
Speaker 1: not many places or experiences.
Speaker 3: Where you're more vulnerable, especially when you're going.
Speaker 1: Quick and you know that like literally four inches below
Speaker 1: your foot is.
Speaker 3: The road and.
Speaker 1: You know you and the road and you're going one
Speaker 1: hundred kilometers or sixty miles an hour or in your case,
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty kilometers an hour, and if you
Speaker 1: come off, that's it. That's the end of the story.
Speaker 1: I don't know what we find so attractive. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's that bit, but there's something about it. Hey,
Speaker 1: doctor Bill, I want to ask you before we dive
Speaker 1: into today's topic, which Melissa rang me up and she went,
Speaker 1: doctor Bill sent through a potential topic for today, and
Speaker 1: my hackles came up straight away, as you would imagine,
Speaker 1: because I'm the exercise science guy and so we're talking
Speaker 1: about there was an article called something like scientists are
Speaker 1: working out how to put exercise in a pill or
Speaker 1: the exercise pill or something like that. But before we
Speaker 1: jump into that, I want to ask you, what are
Speaker 1: your thoughts.
Speaker 3: On AI in academia.
Speaker 1: It's just like, because I'm just finishing my research now
Speaker 1: and I'm about hopefully four weeks away from hand and
Speaker 1: stuff in, but there's just a huge I know, my
Speaker 1: university which is called Monash University in Australia, and Melbourne
Speaker 1: University and Deacon University and Latrobe University, like a lot
Speaker 1: of the universities around where I am.
Speaker 3: It's pretty complex.
Speaker 1: They're trying to figure out how do we because there's
Speaker 1: never going to be a world without well for the
Speaker 1: foreseeable future, without AI, how do we integrate it or
Speaker 1: avoid it? Like, what do we do with it? How
Speaker 1: do we stop people from chating? How do we use
Speaker 1: it in an intelligent why where people are still getting
Speaker 1: the knowledge and still understanding what they're doing without having
Speaker 1: essentially II write their exams or write their papers.
Speaker 3: What are your thoughts about all that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, just give me a second. I'm going to check
Speaker 4: chat GPP and find out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, why don't you Why don't you say what chat
Speaker 3: JP thinks of it?
Speaker 4: I think chat GTP might be a little biased in
Speaker 4: how it perceives its utility. But you're asking the million
Speaker 4: dollar question. We just had a faculty meeting not even
Speaker 4: a month ago, trying to wrap our head around what
Speaker 4: we're going to do, what sort of policies we're going
Speaker 4: to have to put in place for students for thesis dissertations,
Speaker 4: and what sort of policies we're going to put in
Speaker 4: place for exams and for equity too. Faculty are utilizing
Speaker 4: AI tools to grade exams, you know, on a faster
Speaker 4: and larger scale, and perhaps even right exams. So this
Speaker 4: is going to have repercussions at all levels throughout academia,
Speaker 4: just as it is doing in other businesses. So yeah,
Speaker 4: we really don't have a concrete answer at the moment,
Speaker 4: but obviously we're well aware that these tools exist, they're
Speaker 4: being heavily utilized. It's not going to go away. It's
Speaker 4: going to be extremely difficult to police that sort of
Speaker 4: activity on both sides for students and faculty. And I
Speaker 4: mean there's concerns with like scientific and medical journals too,
Speaker 4: with researchers having AI write a portion or even the
Speaker 4: majority of that paper for them. So yeah, those are
Speaker 4: really valid and pertinent questions, and we could probably talk
Speaker 4: for a whole hour and still not come up with
Speaker 4: an answer. But yeah, that's like a topic for a
Speaker 4: whole you know, a series of your podcast. What we've
Speaker 4: decided to do at the moment, like most academics do,
Speaker 4: is table it and you know, let it incubate for
Speaker 4: a while in our heads and you know, maybe brainstorm
Speaker 4: and try to come back with some ideas, you know,
Speaker 4: some basic guidelines and my sense and I could be
Speaker 4: totally wrong about this, but my sense is that there
Speaker 4: is not going to be a feasible way to ignore
Speaker 4: these technologies or these tools. Rather, I think they're going
Speaker 4: to have to be embraced and incorporated into the way
Speaker 4: we go about generating knowledge and writing in the future.
Speaker 4: And a part of that really scares me because as
Speaker 4: an author and a writer, you know, these tools can
Speaker 4: easily overtake a lot of positions out there and leave
Speaker 4: big voids in the human you know, marketplace for writers
Speaker 4: and editors and things like that. So what I can
Speaker 4: what I can tell you so far in a nutshell,
Speaker 4: is that AI tools that are being used for like
Speaker 4: spelling and grammar check don't raise as many red flags
Speaker 4: even though they did, you know, a few years ago.
Speaker 4: They don't raise the same flags anymore right now. Then
Speaker 4: you know the extraordinary ability that AI has currently achieved
Speaker 4: in writing full content, and it's getting more and more
Speaker 4: impressive and accurate by the day. Yes, So that's the
Speaker 4: challenge we have to face, and I, like I said,
Speaker 4: I don't think it's going to go away because we've
Speaker 4: already accepted, you know, the computerized tools that were frowned
Speaker 4: upon just five or ten years ago.
Speaker 3: One of the I think is maybe an issue. I
Speaker 3: don't know. This is purely nobody said this. I haven't
Speaker 3: read it. This is just my chat. JPT didn't tell
Speaker 3: me this.
Speaker 1: I think, like, what's interesting is so I'm sixty two,
Speaker 1: you're a bit younger than me. I think in the
Speaker 1: ballpark and at where I'm at, Monash University, which is
Speaker 1: a pretty highly regarded uni, like the decision makers are,
Speaker 1: without being rude, mostly old, and I think I don't
Speaker 1: think they're really all over AI yet. These are the
Speaker 1: guys and the women who are making the decisions about AI,
Speaker 1: and like some of the young people, the shit that
Speaker 1: they can do, the stuff that they can create and
Speaker 1: produce in next to no time. Like Melissa, who's my
Speaker 1: business partner, is thirty seven, so she's twenty five years
Speaker 1: younger than me. She's got a double degree in psychology
Speaker 1: and commerce. And her aptitude and you know, her ability
Speaker 1: with everything tech and tifts the same. She's about a
Speaker 1: little bit older than Melissa, but not a lot. But
Speaker 1: I look at her do stuff and I just think, well,
Speaker 1: I just don't have that aptitude. I guess I'm better
Speaker 1: than the average person my age but I don't have
Speaker 1: that skill.
Speaker 3: I don't have it.
Speaker 1: I didn't grow up with that language. It's like the
Speaker 1: kids now are growing up. It's like we grow up
Speaker 1: speaking English, we grow up speaking technology now, whereas I
Speaker 1: grew up speaking you know, BMX and skateboard and football,
Speaker 1: that was it. It's just like, I wonder how we're
Speaker 1: going to go when the people who.
Speaker 3: Are actually in the positions of power and making decisions
Speaker 3: within the universities, they're not even fluent in the stuff
Speaker 3: they're making decisions about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good point. And you may remember too
Speaker 4: when you were a little craig when books were introduced
Speaker 4: from the printing press. Do you remember when that was invented?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, fifteen sixty two. Yeah, I was ten. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: Well that was just doctor Jesus and the Apostles and
Speaker 3: I had lunch on the beach in Galilee. Come on, bro,
Speaker 3: that was just I'll tell you what that day when
Speaker 3: he walked on the water and me and Michael and
Speaker 3: James we bought all those fishing. I tell you what.
Speaker 3: He said, I'm going to make you fishes of men.
Speaker 3: That was a good day.
Speaker 4: I bet it was. But but seriously, when the written
Speaker 4: word was introduced and started to get mass produced. There
Speaker 4: was a lot of fear that this was going to
Speaker 4: destroy people's brains because they wouldn't be able to remember
Speaker 4: anything anymore if you wrote it down.
Speaker 3: So that's so true. The Internet in generals.
Speaker 4: Are to us now. But that was a very legitimate
Speaker 4: and widespread concern amongst the older people of that day,
Speaker 4: just like these AI tools are, you know, making older
Speaker 4: people freak out today while the younger crowd embracing them
Speaker 4: and doing some downray innovative and creative things with them. So,
Speaker 4: like all things in life, you either adapt and change
Speaker 4: with it, or you know, you go extinct or at
Speaker 4: least endangered.
Speaker 3: It is. It's an interesting time, and we get onto
Speaker 3: the actual topic. But I like just riffing with you
Speaker 3: in general.
Speaker 1: But there was a so there's a song at the moment,
Speaker 1: which well as of yesterday anyway, it was the number
Speaker 1: one country song on Billboard Digital, so number one on
Speaker 1: the charts, blah blah blah, selling like people are buying it.
Speaker 1: And I got that song and I sent it to
Speaker 1: about five or six friends. I said, what do you
Speaker 1: think of this? And everyone loved it, And everyone's like
Speaker 1: that's amazing.
Speaker 3: Who is that? And I said, it's not who is that,
Speaker 3: it's what is that? Right? That is AI? So this
Speaker 3: is an AI.
Speaker 1: Generated song, an AI generated artist, everything. And then so
Speaker 1: I put that song on my social media and I
Speaker 1: just said, you know, one, what do you think of this?
Speaker 1: Like if you heard a song that you loved on
Speaker 1: the radio or wherever. You just heard a song that
Speaker 1: you loved and it just resonated with it just whatever
Speaker 1: the buttons, the emotional or psychological or creative buttons that
Speaker 1: it pushes, It pushes all your buttons and you love
Speaker 1: that song, you love the melody or the words or
Speaker 1: the whatever the experience of that song. And then you
Speaker 1: find out that it's AI created. Would you listen to it?
Speaker 3: Still? And virtually everyone went.
Speaker 1: No, And it's just so funny where I understand it,
Speaker 1: but I'm thinking, wow. So it's not even about the music,
Speaker 1: it's about our thinking about how music should be created
Speaker 1: or who should or shouldn't be able to Because the
Speaker 1: truth is want it or not, like it or not.
Speaker 3: And I'm not pro or against because I think for me,
Speaker 3: it's pointless. It's going to happen, doesn't matter if I'm
Speaker 3: against it, or I just think it's a thing that
Speaker 3: I find cure. I'm interested in the psychology of the
Speaker 3: response is that, you know, people, for better or worse,
Speaker 3: people love it. Some people love it, but then they
Speaker 3: find out that it's not a human that's doing it,
Speaker 3: and then they hate it. And you go, well that's
Speaker 3: you don't hate the music, you hate how it came
Speaker 3: into existence.
Speaker 4: Maybe that's right. I got two things to say about that.
Speaker 4: First of all, what you're telling me is that AI
Speaker 4: somehow wrote a good country song, which is something that
Speaker 4: no human has ever.
Speaker 1: Done, spoken and authorized by Professor William Sullivan Jr. Not
Speaker 1: endorsed by the Youth Project at all. And don't marry
Speaker 1: on that's so hurtful.
Speaker 4: Maybe Australian country music is very different than American country music,
Speaker 4: and I'm just staying joke.
Speaker 3: Shout out to Keith Urban by the way, who's a
Speaker 3: big listener of the show.
Speaker 4: There are lots of genres within the country.
Speaker 1: You know, you pedals going backwards, stiff, Can you hear
Speaker 1: those pedals? Yeah, he's just turning round.
Speaker 4: No. No, some of my best friends listen to the
Speaker 4: country you know, it's but so so that that's the
Speaker 4: first thing that came to mind. But the second thing,
Speaker 4: what that reminds me of Craig The story of once
Speaker 4: people learned out that it was artificially created rather than
Speaker 4: by a human reminds me of the story of Milli Vanilli.
Speaker 4: You remember these guys, Yeah, yeah, like early nineties or
Speaker 4: something like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, correct, Tiff.
Speaker 4: You probably don't know Milli Vanilli. Right, it's not ice Cream,
Speaker 4: It's it's this duo, this musical duo who were not
Speaker 4: a music group at all. They were lip syncing the
Speaker 4: whole time. They put two pretty faces and good dancers
Speaker 4: out in front to lip sync this music that was
Speaker 4: actually sung by somebody else. And once people found that out,
Speaker 4: once that story broke and they found out that these
Speaker 4: guys were faking it, there were like bonfires of their
Speaker 4: CDs and LPs, you know, lit on fire because people
Speaker 4: were so angry at the deception. And maybe they see
Speaker 4: AI generated music or writing as a deception of sorts,
Speaker 4: even though it kind of plagiarizes all of what humanity
Speaker 4: has already done and assembles it in a way using algorithms,
Speaker 4: assembles it in a way that plays into our psychology,
Speaker 4: so it knows what we like and dislike. So yeah,
Speaker 4: it reminds me of the whole million Vanilli thing. So
Speaker 4: I totally understand the reaction of some of the people
Speaker 4: that you said once they found out it was fake
Speaker 4: or artificially generated. But I guess I guess personally, you know,
Speaker 4: if you like a song, you like a song, you
Speaker 4: know you can't deny the fact that there's something about
Speaker 4: it that you found enjoyable. So I'm not quite sure
Speaker 4: I would deny myself that joy just because it was
Speaker 4: generated by a computer. You know, the difference here is
Speaker 4: that computer is drawing upon the collective contributions of human society,
Speaker 4: so it's just putting them together in a way that
Speaker 4: you know, a country artist would. And you know, I
Speaker 4: guess I have a little more nuanced look at whether
Speaker 4: I would discount the creation just because I found out
Speaker 4: it was artificially generated.
Speaker 1: Do you use AI in your research? Like it feels
Speaker 1: like AI could do some of the grunt work that's not.
Speaker 3: Particularly glamorous and then you do the actual thinking stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, those those sorts of rules and regulations are
Speaker 4: currently being debated. You know, how much AI are we
Speaker 4: going to to allow someone to use if they're going
Speaker 4: to submit a grand application, for example, or a paper.
Speaker 4: But AI is going to easily be utilized like within
Speaker 4: data interpretation. And we're already seeing the evolution of tools
Speaker 4: that can take huge, massive data sets and instead of
Speaker 4: a human being toiling away for days, sometimes weeks, trying
Speaker 4: to find something interesting in this data set, AI can
Speaker 4: do it in seconds. See why you should I don't
Speaker 4: see why you shouldn't take advantage of that.
Speaker 3: Hund percent. All right on with the show. So with
Speaker 3: that in mind, I knew I was going to ask
Speaker 3: you about that.
Speaker 1: With that in mind, I asked chat Jpat to write
Speaker 1: a show intro. So I'm being very transparent everyone. I
Speaker 1: did not write what I'm about to read, and everything
Speaker 1: up until now has been scripted by II old Doctor
Speaker 1: Bill's staff.
Speaker 3: Everything TIF said, I write it now, that's not true.
Speaker 3: That's not true. It's all organic.
Speaker 1: Everything's always organic, unless I've otherwise notified this.
Speaker 3: What I'm about to read is not me.
Speaker 1: But what I love is it's learned how to write
Speaker 1: a bit like I talk. Anyway, Here we go show intro.
Speaker 1: That's what it says. Today, we're talking about something that
Speaker 1: sounds like science fiction but is edging closer to science
Speaker 1: fact the idea of exercise in a pill. We all
Speaker 1: know that exercise is basically nature's Swiss army knife. It
Speaker 1: improves mood, memory, sleep, immune function, metabolic health, longevity, brain plasticity,
Speaker 1: and the list goes on. It's the closest thing we've
Speaker 1: ever had to a true miracle drug. But for millions
Speaker 1: of people, exercise is also incredibly difficult. Illness, age, injury,
Speaker 1: chronic pain, disability, time pressures, or simply the realities of
Speaker 1: life can get in the way.
Speaker 3: So here's the big question. Scientists are now asking, if the.
Speaker 1: Body creates powerful health boosting chemicals when we move, can
Speaker 1: we isolate those chemicals and put them into a therapeutic form.
Speaker 1: Two new studies suggest we might be, so then we think.
Speaker 1: One found that hype, I'm not fucking up your message here,
Speaker 1: doctor Bill. One found that factors released into the blood
Speaker 1: during excise can literally stimulate new brain cell growth in
Speaker 1: sedentory mice. Another discovered that sustained.
Speaker 3: Physical activity boost production of a meta metabolite called betaine,
Speaker 3: which seems to mimic some of exercises anti aging and
Speaker 3: anti inflammatory effects.
Speaker 1: So what does this mean for medicine? For healthy aging
Speaker 1: for people who can't exercise, and what happens to us
Speaker 1: psychologically psychologically if we outsource the physical effort to a pill.
Speaker 1: To help us make sense of all of this, I'm
Speaker 1: joined by Professor Bill Sullivan Junior, a geneticist, author, and
Speaker 1: science communicator, to explore what these fightings mean, what's real,
Speaker 1: what's hype, and whether an exercise pill is in the
Speaker 1: future or just a fascinating detour. Let's jump in. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the show, Professor pil That's not bad, is it?
Speaker 4: I mean, honestly not bad. It's great. It's really good.
Speaker 4: I mean, that's terror upon most of the major topics
Speaker 4: that I spent hours researching, you know, to write the
Speaker 4: article that I sent you. You know, it's it's just
Speaker 4: a little scary. How fantastic the technology is. It really
Speaker 4: hits on all the major points. So then you know,
Speaker 4: until next time, Craig, you know.
Speaker 3: I guess it's been great. So tell us tell us
Speaker 3: about this idea.
Speaker 1: When I first heard it, I'm like, I was just
Speaker 1: philosophically opposed. But then I read the article and I went, okay,
Speaker 1: I've got a greater understanding now, So I was I
Speaker 1: was less opposed, but unpack up for us if you would.
Speaker 4: No, I had the same reaction you did, as you
Speaker 4: probably remember, I said on the show a number of times,
Speaker 4: I'm an avid runner. I love getting out there and
Speaker 4: you know, running the trails and the feeling of that
Speaker 4: is just, you know, remarkable, and I know it's really
Speaker 4: good for my brain and body as well. So when
Speaker 4: I first heard that someone can pack exercise into a pill,
Speaker 4: or that this concept was being developed, it's kind of cringe.
Speaker 4: You know, why would we even want to do such
Speaker 4: a thing when exercise literally is kind of the best
Speaker 4: medicine or Swiss army knife, as your AI generated text declared.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I had that initial response, But then you
Speaker 4: take a little pause and think about it for a moment,
Speaker 4: and you're like, you know, I can think of certain
Speaker 4: individuals where that could be a life saver. You know,
Speaker 4: it maybe wouldn't be for me, maybe wouldn't be good
Speaker 4: for you, Craig or Tiff wouldn't want to do it,
Speaker 4: But no one's going to force you to. What this
Speaker 4: is being developed for are for the individuals who cannot
Speaker 4: avail themselves of opportunities to exercise. Just like your computer said,
Speaker 4: so what are those cases, Well, people with injuries, people
Speaker 4: with a debilitating disease might be bedridden, or or who
Speaker 4: just aren't in an environment where exercise is easy. They
Speaker 4: don't have access to a gym, they can't really run outside.
Speaker 4: It's a little more challenging for them to get exercise.
Speaker 4: And your computer was not wrong. Exercise is fantastic medicine.
Speaker 4: And I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but
Speaker 4: the physical and mental health benefits that come from exercise,
Speaker 4: it's just hard to conceive that you could pack all
Speaker 4: of those into a pill because the advantages are are
Speaker 4: are just so plentiful. So what scientists are slowly trying
Speaker 4: to do, you know, I think to say that we
Speaker 4: can put exercise into a pill is really putting the
Speaker 4: cart before the horse here. What these studies are actually
Speaker 4: doing are identifying some factors in isolation that seem to
Speaker 4: be induced or enhanced because of exercise. And when we
Speaker 4: see that as scientists, we're like, well, that molecule could
Speaker 4: be interesting. Maybe it's bestowing some of the benefits that
Speaker 4: exercise allows participants to enjoy. So they isolate that molecule
Speaker 4: or those factors and they can put them into mice
Speaker 4: or maybe even humans if it's an ethical experiment and
Speaker 4: see what happens. And in some cases low and behold,
Speaker 4: those molecules actually do help, you know, in those laboratory settings.
Speaker 4: So that's what that's what's getting scientists excited about this
Speaker 4: sort of technology. But yeah, you're the initial thought is
Speaker 4: a lot of athletes or you know, people who like
Speaker 4: going to the gym and so on, are going to
Speaker 4: cringe when they hear that. And there's also the concern
Speaker 4: if you flip the script around the other way, is
Speaker 4: this going to jeopardize the equity of competition? You know,
Speaker 4: if there's exercise in a pill, what if athletes take it,
Speaker 4: do they get boost and would not be considered cheating?
Speaker 4: You know, there was a good questions to consider too.
Speaker 3: That is I did not think of that at all.
Speaker 4: You know, I think even your computer mentioned that one.
Speaker 4: So I still have some utility.
Speaker 1: You still it's somewhat diminished, but you still have a perpose.
Speaker 3: But the time being, we're going to keep getting you on.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know what is interesting about I never
Speaker 1: thought about somebody who already exercises and is fit and
Speaker 1: healthy potentially using the same medication or pill or whatever.
Speaker 3: But one of the things that.
Speaker 1: From a conceptual point of view and a philosophical point
Speaker 1: of view and even a scientific point of view, like
Speaker 1: everybody panics when you.
Speaker 3: Talk about performance enhancing. You know in Australia that the
Speaker 3: everything is regulated very stringently, right, there's drug testing all
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 1: And you know, and I know that that people cheat
Speaker 1: in sport. They cheat in probably every sport in every
Speaker 1: country some people. But what's ironic to me is, as
Speaker 1: an excise scientist, everything that we do for athletes in
Speaker 1: terms of you know, their training and their preparation and
Speaker 1: their recovery and their nutrition and their lifestyle and all
Speaker 1: of the interventions and the protocols that we put in place,
Speaker 1: all of them are for performance enhancement.
Speaker 3: Like training is performance enhancing, good nutrition is performance enhancing.
Speaker 3: Great sleepers performance you know, if you're lacking vitamin C,
Speaker 3: vitamin c's performance enhancing. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, I remember, I worked at a professional so
Speaker 1: you have the NFL, we have the AFL. So I
Speaker 1: worked at one of the AFL clubs for four years
Speaker 1: in our national league. And I remember so I was
Speaker 1: the exercise science guy, training, conditioning, recovery, all of that,
Speaker 1: and when I first started working there, I remember. So
Speaker 1: we have a stadium here called the MCG, which is
Speaker 1: the Melbourne Cricket Ground, holds one hundred thousand people, and
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 3: It was one of my early first two.
Speaker 1: Or three games that I was at as part of
Speaker 1: the staff, and there was I don't know how many
Speaker 1: people there, seventy thousand people. And a player comes off.
Speaker 1: He's injured. He rolled his ankle. He's got a significant
Speaker 1: kind of ligament issue. He can't run, he can't wait
Speaker 1: bear and then he goes down the race, into the
Speaker 1: change rooms, into the medical rooms, he gets an injection,
Speaker 1: and ten minutes later he's back on the ground running
Speaker 1: around like he has no injury. Now, so what do
Speaker 1: they do, Well, this guy can't run, They inject him
Speaker 1: with a painkiller and probably an anti inflammatory, and now
Speaker 1: he can't feel that his foot still injured. Obviously his
Speaker 1: foot isn't miraculous.
Speaker 3: Cue. But if that's not performance enhancing, what is. But
Speaker 3: it's funny.
Speaker 1: In our psychology of performance enhancement at an elite level,
Speaker 1: we go, oh, that's not that's okay because that's a
Speaker 1: painkiller and that's an anti inflammatory, and neither of those
Speaker 1: are on the prohibited list on the WADA or the
Speaker 1: USADA or the whatever it is band list, and you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but that guy couldn't even fucking walk because he's got
Speaker 1: an injury.
Speaker 3: Then you inject him and now he's running. Yeah, that
Speaker 3: used to mess with Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, that's a good that's a good point. And
Speaker 4: you know another ethical conundrum when we're trying to make
Speaker 4: competitions fair. I would dial it back on another level.
Speaker 4: You know, there are certain athletes out there, like who
Speaker 4: play basketball, who are just seven feet tall, seven feet tall,
Speaker 4: and you had this, you know, this controversy years ago
Speaker 4: with this Olympic skier who could make incredible runs and
Speaker 4: it turns out he had a genetic mutation that somehow
Speaker 4: made his blood bind oxygen better than most human beings. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I wrote about that in my book. I'm surprised you
Speaker 4: don't remember it.
Speaker 3: Hang on, let me just that guy, that guy.
Speaker 4: I can't I wrote the damn book and I can't
Speaker 4: even remember his name. But I bet chat GTP Will
Speaker 4: or GPT Will. But you get the point. And Michael Phelps,
Speaker 4: this swimmer he's got he's like a genetic variation in
Speaker 4: his arm length or something that makes him this unbeatable swimmer.
Speaker 4: So are the records that are set by athletes like
Speaker 4: this who just have genetic mutations that give them a
Speaker 4: physical attribute that most people will not have, you know?
Speaker 4: Is that fair? I think that's that's an interesting question
Speaker 4: that we should put on them, put on the table
Speaker 4: if we're going to try to discuss making sports equitable.
Speaker 1: I just think that genetic variability can't be one of
Speaker 1: the things because I mean, if that's just in DNA,
Speaker 1: if that's how you are, like, we can't kind of
Speaker 1: control for that. So you go, well, I mean, like
Speaker 1: I've worked with I also work in the National Netball League.
Speaker 3: Netball is a.
Speaker 1: Commonwealth game Canada, England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, A lot
Speaker 1: of countries play, America not but and there are girls
Speaker 1: in the league, women in the league, and also in
Speaker 1: the WNBA and also the WNBL the basketball in Australia
Speaker 1: and the States. And to be fair, some of them
Speaker 1: are not great athletes. They're just six foot eight, so,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's not that you know better athletes
Speaker 1: than me, so and it's not that they're terrible athletes,
Speaker 1: but they're playing with other players who are five ft
Speaker 1: eight and so they almost don't have to dunk to
Speaker 1: shoot the ball, sorry, jump to dunk, or in netball
Speaker 1: you don't dunk. But yeah, it's just and you go, well,
Speaker 1: it is what it is, you know, and then you
Speaker 1: can you combine her extraordinary or his extraordinary height. They're
Speaker 1: eleven out of ten height with maybe five out of
Speaker 1: ten athleticism. But the net result is somebody who can
Speaker 1: do that job pretty well. So that just is what
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I find it fascinating that we're willing to
Speaker 4: give like genetic mutations a pass and we're saying, okay,
Speaker 4: well that's that's an ethical you know pass, because that's
Speaker 4: something they were born with they couldn't control it. But
Speaker 4: we will not give a pass to someone who uses
Speaker 4: their brain to figure out a way to enhance their performance,
Speaker 4: like say through doping or something like that. Yes, for me,
Speaker 4: I don't see much difference, you know, whether it's a
Speaker 4: physical versus an intellectual gift, whichever one you employ to
Speaker 4: enhance your performance.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Mean I see the difference. But then again I don't
Speaker 4: see the difference. You know.
Speaker 1: What's funny is it's just the protocol, isn't it. You
Speaker 1: think about if somebody taking APO or something that's going
Speaker 1: to increase your blood's ability to carry oxygen or deliver oxygen,
Speaker 1: which means you're going to if I get any of
Speaker 1: this wrong, you're the expert. But if I fuck this up,
Speaker 1: let me know. But which is going to increase people's
Speaker 1: time to exhaustion? Right, So it's going to give them
Speaker 1: a kind of a temporarily high VO two max or
Speaker 1: lactate threshold or whatever. So they can do that through doping,
Speaker 1: But they can also get the same physiological result through
Speaker 1: training at altitude or living at altitude. So the next
Speaker 1: result is the same. Well, they've got more oxygen in
Speaker 1: their blood, so their endurance is improved. So they're they're
Speaker 1: getting the exact same response, but the protocol is different.
Speaker 3: One protocol is not okay and the other protocol is okay,
Speaker 3: even though they both enhance performance the same way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an interest. It's an interesting question.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I love it. All right, let's go back
Speaker 3: to this article.
Speaker 1: So, so how far away is this from being a
Speaker 1: real thing in humans or is it is it here already?
Speaker 4: I think it depends on how we view the final product.
Speaker 4: I think if you're looking for like a single pill
Speaker 4: that packs a huge amount of benefits from exercise, you know,
Speaker 4: into a therapeutic form, we're way off from that. You know,
Speaker 4: there's just no way. We're just beginning to understand what
Speaker 4: some of the molecular players are when we size and
Speaker 4: obtain some kind of mental or health benefit from that,
Speaker 4: and there's undoubtedly going to be hundreds, maybe thousands more. Okay.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I think might be more
Speaker 4: immediate on the horizon are kind of like the two
Speaker 4: studies that came out just this past month that I
Speaker 4: talked about in the article, and I'll elaborate on those
Speaker 4: in a moment, but those are on a much smaller scale.
Speaker 4: They're like a single molecule or a group of molecules
Speaker 4: that seem to have modest benefits, or at least certain
Speaker 4: types of benefits. That is something I think can be
Speaker 4: moved forward very quickly, whether we do this legally or not.
Speaker 4: You know, I think there's a lot of these things
Speaker 4: that are going to be pounced upon by biohackers or
Speaker 4: the supplement industry, and they're going you know, they're already
Speaker 4: kind of doing this already they throw out claims about
Speaker 4: certain molecules. Hey, it was found in this study which
Speaker 4: was done in rats or whatever that you know, rats,
Speaker 4: given this supplement X, all of a sudden, they're exercising
Speaker 4: a lot better by our product. And with that very
Speaker 4: minimal amount of evidence, you can put a product on
Speaker 4: the shelf, at least in the States, without anyone batting
Speaker 4: an eyelash, and first, god knows whatever reason, you know,
Speaker 4: millions of people snatch it up and they throw tons
Speaker 4: of money at these companies for unsubstantiated claims. But that's
Speaker 4: totally legal over here. And what I want to you know,
Speaker 4: talk about in these studies was something really interesting because
Speaker 4: what the first study did, and this was done in mice,
Speaker 4: actually they basically put mice into two different types of cages,
Speaker 4: one with an exercise wheel and one that didn't have one.
Speaker 4: So a month later you had, you know, these these
Speaker 4: mice that look like you crag, these these nice, bulky
Speaker 4: muscular mice because they've been running on a wheel for
Speaker 4: a month. And then in the other cage they kind
Speaker 4: of look like me, you know, just this this scrawny
Speaker 4: little little guy wearing glasses. But that's what that's what
Speaker 4: these mice would look like in these different cages. But
Speaker 4: here's where it gets interesting. They isolated from both groups
Speaker 4: of mice. They isolated these extracellular vesicles from the bloodstream
Speaker 4: of each of those mice. Now, what are extracellular vesicles.
Speaker 4: These are actually packets of molecules that get released by
Speaker 4: cells in your body to go tell other cells and
Speaker 4: organs what to do. So they're kind of communication devices
Speaker 4: that the cells in your body uses to change your physiology.
Speaker 4: And in the brain that happens too. Extracellular vesicles release
Speaker 4: neurotransmitters that signal to other brain cells to do certain things,
Speaker 4: or you know, it gets you to think or feel
Speaker 4: different ways. So these communication vesicles were isolated, and the
Speaker 4: contents between the exercised mice versus the ones that weren't
Speaker 4: exercised are different. And I don't know what all those
Speaker 4: differences mean yet. We're talking about dozens of different factors
Speaker 4: in these vesicles. But what they did do they can
Speaker 4: take the vesicles isolated from each group of mice and
Speaker 4: put them into lazy mice mice that haven't been exercised,
Speaker 4: and just by putting in those extracellular vesicles, they saw
Speaker 4: new brain cells growing in the hipocampus of those lazy mice,
Speaker 4: and that only happened with the extracellular vesicles from the
Speaker 4: fit mice. The sedentary mice didn't have any effect, So
Speaker 4: their exercise is really what it really means to in
Speaker 4: a very simple What this really means in a simple
Speaker 4: way is that when these mice were exercising one they
Speaker 4: were making factors that promoted brain cell growth in their
Speaker 4: hippocampus and that's the center for memory and learning. And
Speaker 4: this explains why a lot of people who exercise typically
Speaker 4: are a lot sharper or are less susceptible to dementia
Speaker 4: as they age. Exercise has very clear effects on the brain,
Speaker 4: and if we can dive into these extracyllular vesicles and
Speaker 4: identify what their contents do, we could very well come
Speaker 4: up with new therapies that can deliver some of the
Speaker 4: benefits of exercise without actually having to go work out
Speaker 4: or break a sweat. And like we said, there are
Speaker 4: subsets of people in our population and who could really
Speaker 4: benefit from something like that. So I thought that was
Speaker 4: a really cool study. It teaches us something about the
Speaker 4: mechanisms of exercise and why it's so healthy and important
Speaker 4: to do, but it also points us toward possible therapies
Speaker 4: for people who really don't exercise or can't exercise for
Speaker 4: whatever reason.
Speaker 1: Can I zoom out from the micro of this particular
Speaker 1: study and ask you a more macro question for people
Speaker 1: who for whom research and this kind of study and
Speaker 1: learning is unfamiliar. What's the process of something going from
Speaker 1: a study with mice or rats or whatever.
Speaker 3: I know it's not quick, and I know it's not painless, But.
Speaker 1: How does that work in terms of that becoming eventually
Speaker 1: a human study, getting ethical approval, getting funding?
Speaker 3: All of that?
Speaker 1: Is that a and I know it varies, but that's
Speaker 1: probably closer to a ten year process than a one
Speaker 1: or two year process.
Speaker 3: Am I right?
Speaker 4: Oh? I would say, so there's still be a lot
Speaker 4: more pre clinical studies, which means more animal studies to
Speaker 4: verify this result. You know, this was a one off experiment,
Speaker 4: so you want to see that it can get repeated,
Speaker 4: and then you would want to take it into either
Speaker 4: non human primates or humans themselves. Some of the things
Speaker 4: you could do right now would be to try to
Speaker 4: isolate these extracellular vesicles from exercising humans versus those who
Speaker 4: don't get a lot of exercise and see how the
Speaker 4: contents are different and whether it provides any clues as
Speaker 4: to why people who exercise seem to have certain medical
Speaker 4: benefits that sedentary people do not have. So that would
Speaker 4: be a good start. But you know, the other angle
Speaker 4: to your question there is how do we progress once
Speaker 4: we find, say, like a key protein in these extracellular
Speaker 4: vesicles that seem to be a major player, Well, then
Speaker 4: you'd have to do some safety trials and humans in
Speaker 4: the US we call that stage one clinical trials, and
Speaker 4: that's just to test whether it can be tolerated and
Speaker 4: make sure it doesn't produce any side effects or harm.
Speaker 4: And then that's done in a relatively small group of
Speaker 4: people for obvious reasons, because they're kind of human guinea
Speaker 4: pigs at that point. And then we go into phase
Speaker 4: two clinical trials, which are much larger, and we start
Speaker 4: putting it into more people to see, you know, we're
Speaker 4: pretty sure that it's safe, but we still monitor for
Speaker 4: side effects. But the real we get at the real
Speaker 4: heart of the question, and we start identically, you know,
Speaker 4: we start to try to determine does this factor actually
Speaker 4: improve brain performance? And there'll be a battery of essays
Speaker 4: how that could be assessed, you know, and then to
Speaker 4: be a final phase three clinical trial that goes into
Speaker 4: even more people where safety and efficacy is determined with
Speaker 4: a great deal of confidence. So, yeah, you're talking a
Speaker 4: long road, an expensive road. It'll be much much easier
Speaker 4: if companies can identify something that is already in our
Speaker 4: diet or already considered safe, and they can market that
Speaker 4: as a supplement.
Speaker 3: Yeah. One of the things I was thinking about, like
Speaker 3: when the first book that I wrote was.
Speaker 1: About basically the psychology of getting in shape, not the physiology,
Speaker 1: you know, And I'm always talking to people about the
Speaker 1: numerous you know, apart from cognitive benefits of exercise, but
Speaker 1: the you know, the sociological, psychological, emotional benefits of working
Speaker 1: out and whether or not that's you running in the woods,
Speaker 1: or whether or not that's me training with you know,
Speaker 1: some of my friends at the gym, or whatever the activity,
Speaker 1: whatever the environment, whatever the intensity, but the benefits that
Speaker 1: come from working out and doing something hard that is
Speaker 1: uncomfortable but also builds you know, adaptability and resilience and
Speaker 1: a little bit of mental toughness and confidence and self
Speaker 1: worth and self esteem. And kind of an understanding of
Speaker 1: one's own potential when they'd break through things they couldn't like.
Speaker 1: I just think there are a huge amount of benefits.
Speaker 3: That come from the process of exercise that probably can't
Speaker 3: come from a pill.
Speaker 4: Oh, I couldn't agree more. Those are psychological benefits of exercise,
Speaker 4: and it's really hard to imagine a pill that can
Speaker 4: come up with such things. You know what, I go
Speaker 4: out to run, it's because I want to reduce stress.
Speaker 4: It's because I enjoy the solitude. I get to listen
Speaker 4: to some music, and you know, I know people who
Speaker 4: do team sports. They love the camaraderie and they love
Speaker 4: the friendships and the social aspects of it. You raise
Speaker 4: a good point about achieving fitness goals, you know, going
Speaker 4: beyond what you thought was your limit. That's very rewarding.
Speaker 4: So yeah, there's a new morble psychological benefits to exercise
Speaker 4: that I don't think a pill could ever emulate. And
Speaker 4: those are things that I wouldn't want to give up
Speaker 4: if such a pill were invented, because I would really
Speaker 4: miss getting outside and enjoying nature and you know, feeling
Speaker 4: all those other psychological benefits we mentioned.
Speaker 3: I know it's kind of high level guessing at the moment,
Speaker 3: because it's not real, sorry or not.
Speaker 4: It's still pretty cool to think about.
Speaker 3: Would you take it, Like if you're doing what you're
Speaker 3: already doing, If it was a vilable and you knew
Speaker 3: it could give you some additional benefit, would you take.
Speaker 4: It At the time, I don't see a need why
Speaker 4: I would take it. You know, I'm getting plenty of exercise,
Speaker 4: and as long as my body can still do that,
Speaker 4: I don't see need for a pill. Now if for
Speaker 4: some reason, you know, let's say I go out there
Speaker 4: and I sprain my ankle or something on a and
Speaker 4: I'm going to be out of commission for a month
Speaker 4: or so, then I might consider it because if it's
Speaker 4: you know, in assuming I can't do other substitute exercises,
Speaker 4: because then it would kind of fill that gap, you know,
Speaker 4: since I can't go out and obtain these benefits naturally.
Speaker 4: If the pill is safe and efficacious, I think you
Speaker 4: could make a case for why it would be useful
Speaker 4: under those conditions. And you know, I'm not going to
Speaker 4: be this age forever. I'm going to probably have a
Speaker 4: body that falls apart gradually as I get older, and
Speaker 4: if a pill that comes out a so called exercise
Speaker 4: pill can stave off dementia pretty effectively. I think it'd
Speaker 4: be foolish not to take it.
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, as somebody with parents who are at the
Speaker 1: pointy end of their journey, anything that helps keep the
Speaker 1: old brain working for longer, I'm at least I.
Speaker 3: Open to discussion.
Speaker 1: It's I feel like, yeah, it's I think in the
Speaker 1: old days, I'm going to say in the old days.
Speaker 1: But it's like thinking about health span wasn't even an idea, right,
Speaker 1: it was all lifespan and thinking about even the idea
Speaker 1: of what can I do. I'm always talking about this now,
Speaker 1: and probably because I'm older and I'm aware of this,
Speaker 1: so I'm more proactive and I'm more considerate of this
Speaker 1: stuff personally, But just the concept of, oh, what can
Speaker 1: I proactively do to make my brain work better and
Speaker 1: make my brain healthier and be atypical when I'm seventy
Speaker 1: or seventy five or eighty. Not for a goic reasons
Speaker 1: or not because I want to look good or be
Speaker 1: better than anyone, but just well, shit, I can have
Speaker 1: a brain that works at nine out of ten when
Speaker 1: I'm seventy, or a brain that works out a three
Speaker 1: out of ten when I'm seventy, potentially depend on how
Speaker 1: I manage my brain, sleep, food, exercise, supplementation, you know,
Speaker 1: stress management, all of these things. I feel like it's
Speaker 1: a relatively new idea to manage our brain and to
Speaker 1: have a personal strategy for doing that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we should take a look at all
Speaker 4: the data that's out there in order to make a
Speaker 4: wise and informed decision because everyone wants to have a
Speaker 4: high quality of life. I totally agree that the length
Speaker 4: of it place second fiddle to the quality that you're
Speaker 4: going to enjoy. And if there are good evidence based study,
Speaker 4: you know, you know, studies that point you in direction
Speaker 4: of something that can help you, and safety trials have
Speaker 4: been done, I don't see why you would deny that.
Speaker 4: You know, it'd be just like any other medicine that
Speaker 4: you would go take.
Speaker 3: So my question for you is how much do you
Speaker 3: like you are?
Speaker 1: You are the ultimate scientist and I love that and
Speaker 1: that's your job and that's what you're meant to be.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what it says on my office door. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I know it's a scientist.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: Well, they're bringing out that movie called The Ultimate Scientist
Speaker 1: and I think Matt Damo is playing.
Speaker 4: I want to take you to my next post tenured review.
Speaker 4: You know, Craig says, I am an ultimate scientist.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll just send you a little letter like mum
Speaker 1: would send me to school with a letter I'll send
Speaker 1: I go, dear Boffins, Dear Boffins, please find and.
Speaker 3: Closed my review of Professor Bill.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, like, I'm I have one
Speaker 1: foot in science, maybe one and a half feet in science,
Speaker 1: but I also have like a foot or half a
Speaker 1: foot in instinct and intuition, and like for me, where
Speaker 1: like science might tell us that meditation is a really
Speaker 1: good thing for stress and for lowering cortisol and lowering
Speaker 1: heart rate and you know, switching on the parasympathic nervous system.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, not for me, though, I go, yeah,
Speaker 1: fuck your research.
Speaker 3: That doesn't work for me.
Speaker 1: Like, I think that there's the stuff that we kind
Speaker 1: of know broadly that's in the macro of this seems
Speaker 1: to be applicable and relevant and effective for most people
Speaker 1: with this condition or this goal or whatever.
Speaker 3: But then I think also down to the.
Speaker 1: Biofeedback of my own body and the self awareness and
Speaker 1: the understanding, you know, trying to understand my own brain
Speaker 1: and my own nervous system and my own physiology in
Speaker 1: the middle of all of this ever present myriad of
Speaker 1: variables and factors that I navigate and back to Tiffs's
Speaker 1: conversation before about her motorbike, like, she can be on
Speaker 1: her motorbike, can come and somebody else will be on it.
Speaker 1: So it might actually literally be more therapeutic.
Speaker 3: For her to go for a motorbike ride than to,
Speaker 3: you know, perhaps do a stretching class or.
Speaker 1: A you know, some kind of mindfulness meditation. So I
Speaker 1: guess my long winded question is how much for you
Speaker 1: is all about just following the research and the data,
Speaker 1: and how much is also tuning into your own intuition
Speaker 1: and instinct and knowing for you personally.
Speaker 4: Wow, that's a difficult question to answer because it's kind
Speaker 4: of like one you do on a case by case basis.
Speaker 4: But I would say one of the misconceptions that a
Speaker 4: lot of people have when you say this study shows
Speaker 4: this or this study shows that is that it applies
Speaker 4: to all people, which is not true. The research is
Speaker 4: always like a bell curve, and it's going to be
Speaker 4: outliers of people who were analyzed in that study, or
Speaker 4: even mice that didn't show the effect. And yeah, they
Speaker 4: might be in the minority of that data set, but
Speaker 4: they're still there. Okay. So while the evidence shows, to
Speaker 4: draw on your example, Craig, while the evidence shows that
Speaker 4: mindfulness meditation can dramatically reduce stress in very measurable ways
Speaker 4: for most people, Yes, that doesn't mean all people, you know.
Speaker 4: So I think people who have an instinct that it
Speaker 4: won't work for them, give it a try, and if
Speaker 4: you're right, perhaps you can obtain those benefits in a
Speaker 4: different fashion. Not everything is going to float everybody's boat
Speaker 4: in the same way. So you just need to, you know,
Speaker 4: find find out what's right for you. I have a
Speaker 4: I think instincts a double ed sword because it's an
Speaker 4: impulsive reaction, right, It's it's kind of emotion and a feeling,
Speaker 4: and we need those. They're important, but they're primal and
Speaker 4: they're crude, and they can be often wrong. And that's
Speaker 4: why we have a prefrontal cortex to do things like
Speaker 4: research that can educate us as to whether our instincts
Speaker 4: are spot on or if they're incorrect. So I I
Speaker 4: guess I enjoy having both. At my disposal, I rely
Speaker 4: on instinct because I think there's evolutionary wisdom when our
Speaker 4: bodies are trying to tell us something, but it's not
Speaker 4: right all the time. You know, I've had plenty of
Speaker 4: instincts that were dead wrong. Just ask my wife. You know,
Speaker 4: I get lots of things wrong when I'm trying to
Speaker 4: read her mind. So I rely on my memory and
Speaker 4: evidence and things of that nature. So yeah, that I
Speaker 4: think you raise a really incredibly good point, because I
Speaker 4: think when we talk to most people, they're kind of
Speaker 4: on one side of the coin or the other. Right,
Speaker 4: you know, it's all about instinct or it's all about science,
Speaker 4: And I think, no, you've got to marry both of
Speaker 4: those in order to reap the benefits that both of
Speaker 4: those mechanisms create.
Speaker 3: I lock that it's nuanced.
Speaker 4: And also I'm not trying to like waffle out of
Speaker 4: the question. And I genuinely think that's how.
Speaker 3: You totally wasting out of the question. Ducking and weaving.
Speaker 4: Play off one another. They they do.
Speaker 3: Having said that, no, I I one hundred percent agree
Speaker 3: with you.
Speaker 1: But then also, you know, to think that science is
Speaker 1: infallible and that the people that do science interpret the
Speaker 1: science run, the science finance, the science that that's not
Speaker 1: flawed or that's not wrong. Often, I mean that's also ridiculous.
Speaker 1: So you know, to go, what does the research say? Well,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm like, yeah, but who you know? Is it
Speaker 1: ansel Keys? Is it the food pyramid?
Speaker 4: Is it?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of research that ended up
Speaker 1: being completely flawed in many ways that became law l
Speaker 1: o E and was strictly adhered to and followed and
Speaker 1: touted as the best way to do this or that.
Speaker 1: Then we subsequently found out that it's that you know,
Speaker 1: not completely true or completely false. So I think that.
Speaker 4: What got us? Are there more research humans humans? So
Speaker 4: you're saying the problems of research can only be cured
Speaker 4: by more research. Well, I'm thinking, well, are we going
Speaker 4: to go about fixing this?
Speaker 1: Well, you could also say that what got us there
Speaker 1: was people asking better questions and doubting and having the
Speaker 1: awareness that I'm eating the way that I'm meant to eat,
Speaker 1: but I'm not getting the outcome that I should get
Speaker 1: and in fact, on this low fat model of eating,
Speaker 1: I'm gaining fat, which is meant to be the opposite.
Speaker 3: Of what it does. So I think that's more just
Speaker 3: instinct and awareness and curiosity that then eventually, but I
Speaker 3: don't think it's one or the other. And Monash might
Speaker 3: kick me out of the program haying all of this.
Speaker 3: They might go, you realize you're a scientific research I
Speaker 3: get it.
Speaker 1: I get it, but I don't think that needs to
Speaker 1: be We don't need to be dogmatic or religious. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think for you, for the most part, I'm with you.
Speaker 3: I think that you know, the research is the research,
Speaker 3: and most of it these days, I think it's worth
Speaker 3: paying attention to.
Speaker 4: Well, I think to illustrate some of the points you're making, Craig,
Speaker 4: some of the areas where things get into trouble is
Speaker 4: when people want to make a quick buck. Okay, they
Speaker 4: will run, especially in the diet and supplemental space. You know,
Speaker 4: they glomb on to a handful of studies, sometimes just one,
Speaker 4: and they run with it like it's dogma already and
Speaker 4: it hasn't been repeated, it hasn't been robustly demonstrated, and
Speaker 4: that's not usually a scientist's fault. That's a business person's fault,
Speaker 4: and it makes science look bad.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally.
Speaker 4: Agree with you.
Speaker 1: I can't remember what it was Oh, yeah, I can.
Speaker 1: I might have even spoken about it. I saw one
Speaker 1: recently about some supplement that was meant to do some
Speaker 1: amazing thing for elderly people who were weaken It was
Speaker 1: was meant to improve strength and all these outcomes without training,
Speaker 1: and it was like scientifically proven. And then I went
Speaker 1: down a rabbit hole and it was just complete garbage.
Speaker 1: It was like, it's not like, oh, it was kind
Speaker 1: of true. No, it was total garbage. I love chatting
Speaker 1: with you. We love chatting with you. I will write
Speaker 1: that letter of recommendation that you can take when you
Speaker 1: meet with the board next time.
Speaker 4: I'm sure they will be really impressed when they see
Speaker 4: your name.
Speaker 3: Oh I feel like that's hurtful. Can you believe what
Speaker 3: he just said? No, that's sincerely, It's like, who is fuck?
Speaker 3: Every third sentence that guy.
Speaker 4: And that recommendation letter better have plenty of F bombs.
Speaker 4: But wait, do you hand your thesis in because then
Speaker 4: you can say doctor Craig Harper. You know it gives
Speaker 4: it a real air of authenticity.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do that.
Speaker 1: Hey, we appreciate you. Do you want to point anyone
Speaker 1: at our audience towards anything before you say goodbye.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, thanks, Craig. Tell you what when you post
Speaker 4: on Facebook the announcement for this episode, I will put
Speaker 4: in the comments a free link to the article that
Speaker 4: we've been discussing today because there's a couple of things
Speaker 4: in there we didn't get time to go over, so
Speaker 4: the fans of your podcast will be able to go
Speaker 4: access that for free, and if they want to follow
Speaker 4: me on this platform called medium, they're more than welcome
Speaker 4: to do so. We referred to my book a couple
Speaker 4: times that's called Please to Meet Me Jeans, Germs and
Speaker 4: the curious forces that make us who we are. You
Speaker 4: can pick that book up at any booksellers, find out
Speaker 4: what the name of that Olympics gear was, who had
Speaker 4: that notation that allowed him to do superhuman things, and
Speaker 4: many many other really interesting facets of why we do
Speaker 4: the things we do. So yeah, thanks, thanks for having
Speaker 4: me on, Craig. It's been a lot of fun, not
Speaker 4: just today but all year long it's been. It's been
Speaker 4: great to come and talk to you once a month.
Speaker 3: Thank you, sir. We genuinely I love having you on.
Speaker 3: Tiff loves having you on and out we always get
Speaker 3: great feedback about you. But yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: We'll say goodbye a fair but Professor Bill tiff did
Speaker 1: you find that scare with the mutation yet?
Speaker 3: You're trying to find it now, aren't.
Speaker 2: You going to? I'm going to.
Speaker 3: Oh all right, Thanks everyone, Thanks to