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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another instorm and of

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Speaker 1: the show. It's Tiffany and Cook. It's Professor William Sullivan Junior.

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Speaker 1: We're going to call him that. It's me, Craig Anthony Harper,

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Speaker 1: the bloody buffed from Latro Valley who just keeps turning

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Speaker 1: up every day to do this. We'll start with the lady.

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Speaker 1: I use the term reservedly because she does. She's looking around.

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Speaker 1: She's looking around?

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Speaker 2: Is that me or is it today?

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Speaker 3: You're a lady, You're a lady.

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Speaker 1: We know you're a lady, tiff That is Monday, eleven

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Speaker 1: thirty four in the am. How's your weekend being? Did

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Speaker 1: you have a good weekend? What have you got on

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Speaker 1: this week?

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Speaker 2: Had a great weekend, got out on the bike. It

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Speaker 2: was really sunny. That made me happy. Then it rained

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Speaker 2: for a lot and that didn't make me happy.

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Speaker 4: All the things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, tell all the lady listeners, of which is most

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Speaker 1: of our audience. For some strange reason, what attracts you

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Speaker 1: about riding a motorbike that will go zero to one hundred,

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Speaker 1: or in doctor Bill's language, zero to sick in three seconds?

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Speaker 1: What is it about you that high octane high horse

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Speaker 1: power vehicles do for the lady that is you.

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Speaker 2: It's visceral, it's tactile, it's sensory, and it shuts out

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Speaker 2: everything else you got. There's not many things that can

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Speaker 2: give you enough to feel and see and experience and

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Speaker 2: focus on that can shut out all the other noise.

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Speaker 2: There's boxing. Boxing. Was that for me and the motorcycle?

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Speaker 4: I love it, especially when.

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Speaker 2: I got that exhaust last year. Harps, Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 3: Wow, wow, that's it's all about the sound.

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Speaker 1: Well, the power and the speed and the acceleration are good,

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Speaker 1: but when it sounds like a fucking mobile like volcano

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Speaker 1: as well, when you got that little bit of do

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Speaker 1: you know what's interesting? Doctor Bill can tell us why

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Speaker 1: this happens, but like what will be for you? Almost

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Speaker 1: like a hypnotic calming. You know, everyone knows I ride

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Speaker 1: motorbikes as well, but for me, I'm almost in my

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Speaker 1: happiest place when I'm on a motorbike, which for someone

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Speaker 1: else will be their most stressful place. Isn't it funny

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Speaker 1: how you can have a person on the front who's

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Speaker 1: producing you know, dopamine and bloody, all the good stuff, right,

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Speaker 1: and then someone sitting on the back on the same day,

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Speaker 1: on the same motorbike going to the same place. Who's

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Speaker 1: in a complete state of stress and anxiety and panic.

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Speaker 2: When I'm going really fast within the speed limit. Of course,

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Speaker 2: of course, sometimes I just squeal under my helm. I'll

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Speaker 2: get that excited. I just squeal. It's the best, the

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Speaker 2: best feeling.

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Speaker 1: I do that, But for different reasons, Doctor Bill, what

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Speaker 1: are your what's your take on all of this drivel?

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Speaker 4: I guess when I was young, I would be the

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Speaker 4: same way. You're kind of more adventurous, and you have

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Speaker 4: more of a you know, a reckless spirit, and you

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Speaker 4: really start to feel more alive, you know, when you

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Speaker 4: kind of risk your life a little bit, or you

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Speaker 4: know there's a danger there, just the emotions get so palpable.

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Speaker 4: Then I think people realize that, hey, I'm living a

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Speaker 4: life here and it can actually end. So maybe you

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Speaker 4: get some enjoyment from that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that fine line between absolute ecstasy and it

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Speaker 1: sounds weird, but like when you're on a motorbike, there's

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Speaker 1: not many places or experiences.

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Speaker 3: Where you're more vulnerable, especially when you're going.

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Speaker 1: Quick and you know that like literally four inches below

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Speaker 1: your foot is.

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Speaker 3: The road and.

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Speaker 1: You know you and the road and you're going one

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Speaker 1: hundred kilometers or sixty miles an hour or in your case,

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Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty kilometers an hour, and if you

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Speaker 1: come off, that's it. That's the end of the story.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what we find so attractive. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's that bit, but there's something about it. Hey,

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Speaker 1: doctor Bill, I want to ask you before we dive

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Speaker 1: into today's topic, which Melissa rang me up and she went,

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Speaker 1: doctor Bill sent through a potential topic for today, and

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Speaker 1: my hackles came up straight away, as you would imagine,

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Speaker 1: because I'm the exercise science guy and so we're talking

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Speaker 1: about there was an article called something like scientists are

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Speaker 1: working out how to put exercise in a pill or

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Speaker 1: the exercise pill or something like that. But before we

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Speaker 1: jump into that, I want to ask you, what are

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Speaker 1: your thoughts.

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Speaker 3: On AI in academia.

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Speaker 1: It's just like, because I'm just finishing my research now

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Speaker 1: and I'm about hopefully four weeks away from hand and

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Speaker 1: stuff in, but there's just a huge I know, my

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Speaker 1: university which is called Monash University in Australia, and Melbourne

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Speaker 1: University and Deacon University and Latrobe University, like a lot

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Speaker 1: of the universities around where I am.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty complex.

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Speaker 1: They're trying to figure out how do we because there's

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Speaker 1: never going to be a world without well for the

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Speaker 1: foreseeable future, without AI, how do we integrate it or

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Speaker 1: avoid it? Like, what do we do with it? How

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Speaker 1: do we stop people from chating? How do we use

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Speaker 1: it in an intelligent why where people are still getting

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Speaker 1: the knowledge and still understanding what they're doing without having

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Speaker 1: essentially II write their exams or write their papers.

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Speaker 3: What are your thoughts about all that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, just give me a second. I'm going to check

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Speaker 4: chat GPP and find out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, why don't you Why don't you say what chat

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Speaker 3: JP thinks of it?

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Speaker 4: I think chat GTP might be a little biased in

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Speaker 4: how it perceives its utility. But you're asking the million

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Speaker 4: dollar question. We just had a faculty meeting not even

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Speaker 4: a month ago, trying to wrap our head around what

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Speaker 4: we're going to do, what sort of policies we're going

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Speaker 4: to have to put in place for students for thesis dissertations,

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Speaker 4: and what sort of policies we're going to put in

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Speaker 4: place for exams and for equity too. Faculty are utilizing

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Speaker 4: AI tools to grade exams, you know, on a faster

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Speaker 4: and larger scale, and perhaps even right exams. So this

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Speaker 4: is going to have repercussions at all levels throughout academia,

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Speaker 4: just as it is doing in other businesses. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: we really don't have a concrete answer at the moment,

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Speaker 4: but obviously we're well aware that these tools exist, they're

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Speaker 4: being heavily utilized. It's not going to go away. It's

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Speaker 4: going to be extremely difficult to police that sort of

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Speaker 4: activity on both sides for students and faculty. And I

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Speaker 4: mean there's concerns with like scientific and medical journals too,

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Speaker 4: with researchers having AI write a portion or even the

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Speaker 4: majority of that paper for them. So yeah, those are

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Speaker 4: really valid and pertinent questions, and we could probably talk

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Speaker 4: for a whole hour and still not come up with

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Speaker 4: an answer. But yeah, that's like a topic for a

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Speaker 4: whole you know, a series of your podcast. What we've

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Speaker 4: decided to do at the moment, like most academics do,

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Speaker 4: is table it and you know, let it incubate for

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Speaker 4: a while in our heads and you know, maybe brainstorm

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Speaker 4: and try to come back with some ideas, you know,

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Speaker 4: some basic guidelines and my sense and I could be

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Speaker 4: totally wrong about this, but my sense is that there

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Speaker 4: is not going to be a feasible way to ignore

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Speaker 4: these technologies or these tools. Rather, I think they're going

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Speaker 4: to have to be embraced and incorporated into the way

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Speaker 4: we go about generating knowledge and writing in the future.

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Speaker 4: And a part of that really scares me because as

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Speaker 4: an author and a writer, you know, these tools can

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Speaker 4: easily overtake a lot of positions out there and leave

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Speaker 4: big voids in the human you know, marketplace for writers

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Speaker 4: and editors and things like that. So what I can

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Speaker 4: what I can tell you so far in a nutshell,

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Speaker 4: is that AI tools that are being used for like

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Speaker 4: spelling and grammar check don't raise as many red flags

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Speaker 4: even though they did, you know, a few years ago.

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Speaker 4: They don't raise the same flags anymore right now. Then

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Speaker 4: you know the extraordinary ability that AI has currently achieved

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Speaker 4: in writing full content, and it's getting more and more

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Speaker 4: impressive and accurate by the day. Yes, So that's the

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Speaker 4: challenge we have to face, and I, like I said,

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Speaker 4: I don't think it's going to go away because we've

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Speaker 4: already accepted, you know, the computerized tools that were frowned

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Speaker 4: upon just five or ten years ago.

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Speaker 3: One of the I think is maybe an issue. I

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Speaker 3: don't know. This is purely nobody said this. I haven't

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Speaker 3: read it. This is just my chat. JPT didn't tell

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Speaker 3: me this.

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Speaker 1: I think, like, what's interesting is so I'm sixty two,

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Speaker 1: you're a bit younger than me. I think in the

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Speaker 1: ballpark and at where I'm at, Monash University, which is

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Speaker 1: a pretty highly regarded uni, like the decision makers are,

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Speaker 1: without being rude, mostly old, and I think I don't

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Speaker 1: think they're really all over AI yet. These are the

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Speaker 1: guys and the women who are making the decisions about AI,

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Speaker 1: and like some of the young people, the shit that

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Speaker 1: they can do, the stuff that they can create and

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Speaker 1: produce in next to no time. Like Melissa, who's my

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Speaker 1: business partner, is thirty seven, so she's twenty five years

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Speaker 1: younger than me. She's got a double degree in psychology

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Speaker 1: and commerce. And her aptitude and you know, her ability

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Speaker 1: with everything tech and tifts the same. She's about a

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Speaker 1: little bit older than Melissa, but not a lot. But

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Speaker 1: I look at her do stuff and I just think, well,

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Speaker 1: I just don't have that aptitude. I guess I'm better

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Speaker 1: than the average person my age but I don't have

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Speaker 1: that skill.

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Speaker 3: I don't have it.

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Speaker 1: I didn't grow up with that language. It's like the

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Speaker 1: kids now are growing up. It's like we grow up

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Speaker 1: speaking English, we grow up speaking technology now, whereas I

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Speaker 1: grew up speaking you know, BMX and skateboard and football,

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Speaker 1: that was it. It's just like, I wonder how we're

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Speaker 1: going to go when the people who.

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Speaker 3: Are actually in the positions of power and making decisions

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Speaker 3: within the universities, they're not even fluent in the stuff

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Speaker 3: they're making decisions about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good point. And you may remember too

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Speaker 4: when you were a little craig when books were introduced

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Speaker 4: from the printing press. Do you remember when that was invented?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, fifteen sixty two. Yeah, I was ten. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: Well that was just doctor Jesus and the Apostles and

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Speaker 3: I had lunch on the beach in Galilee. Come on, bro,

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Speaker 3: that was just I'll tell you what that day when

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Speaker 3: he walked on the water and me and Michael and

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Speaker 3: James we bought all those fishing. I tell you what.

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Speaker 3: He said, I'm going to make you fishes of men.

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Speaker 3: That was a good day.

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Speaker 4: I bet it was. But but seriously, when the written

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Speaker 4: word was introduced and started to get mass produced. There

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Speaker 4: was a lot of fear that this was going to

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Speaker 4: destroy people's brains because they wouldn't be able to remember

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Speaker 4: anything anymore if you wrote it down.

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Speaker 3: So that's so true. The Internet in generals.

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Speaker 4: Are to us now. But that was a very legitimate

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Speaker 4: and widespread concern amongst the older people of that day,

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Speaker 4: just like these AI tools are, you know, making older

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Speaker 4: people freak out today while the younger crowd embracing them

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Speaker 4: and doing some downray innovative and creative things with them. So,

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Speaker 4: like all things in life, you either adapt and change

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Speaker 4: with it, or you know, you go extinct or at

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Speaker 4: least endangered.

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Speaker 3: It is. It's an interesting time, and we get onto

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Speaker 3: the actual topic. But I like just riffing with you

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Speaker 3: in general.

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Speaker 1: But there was a so there's a song at the moment,

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Speaker 1: which well as of yesterday anyway, it was the number

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Speaker 1: one country song on Billboard Digital, so number one on

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Speaker 1: the charts, blah blah blah, selling like people are buying it.

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Speaker 1: And I got that song and I sent it to

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Speaker 1: about five or six friends. I said, what do you

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Speaker 1: think of this? And everyone loved it, And everyone's like

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Speaker 1: that's amazing.

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Speaker 3: Who is that? And I said, it's not who is that,

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Speaker 3: it's what is that? Right? That is AI? So this

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Speaker 3: is an AI.

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Speaker 1: Generated song, an AI generated artist, everything. And then so

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Speaker 1: I put that song on my social media and I

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Speaker 1: just said, you know, one, what do you think of this?

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Speaker 1: Like if you heard a song that you loved on

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Speaker 1: the radio or wherever. You just heard a song that

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Speaker 1: you loved and it just resonated with it just whatever

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Speaker 1: the buttons, the emotional or psychological or creative buttons that

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Speaker 1: it pushes, It pushes all your buttons and you love

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Speaker 1: that song, you love the melody or the words or

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Speaker 1: the whatever the experience of that song. And then you

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Speaker 1: find out that it's AI created. Would you listen to it?

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Speaker 3: Still? And virtually everyone went.

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Speaker 1: No, And it's just so funny where I understand it,

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Speaker 1: but I'm thinking, wow. So it's not even about the music,

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Speaker 1: it's about our thinking about how music should be created

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Speaker 1: or who should or shouldn't be able to Because the

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Speaker 1: truth is want it or not, like it or not.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not pro or against because I think for me,

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Speaker 3: it's pointless. It's going to happen, doesn't matter if I'm

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Speaker 3: against it, or I just think it's a thing that

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Speaker 3: I find cure. I'm interested in the psychology of the

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Speaker 3: response is that, you know, people, for better or worse,

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Speaker 3: people love it. Some people love it, but then they

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Speaker 3: find out that it's not a human that's doing it,

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Speaker 3: and then they hate it. And you go, well that's

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Speaker 3: you don't hate the music, you hate how it came

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Speaker 3: into existence.

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Speaker 4: Maybe that's right. I got two things to say about that.

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Speaker 4: First of all, what you're telling me is that AI

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Speaker 4: somehow wrote a good country song, which is something that

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Speaker 4: no human has ever.

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Speaker 1: Done, spoken and authorized by Professor William Sullivan Jr. Not

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Speaker 1: endorsed by the Youth Project at all. And don't marry

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Speaker 1: on that's so hurtful.

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Speaker 4: Maybe Australian country music is very different than American country music,

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Speaker 4: and I'm just staying joke.

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Speaker 3: Shout out to Keith Urban by the way, who's a

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Speaker 3: big listener of the show.

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Speaker 4: There are lots of genres within the country.

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Speaker 1: You know, you pedals going backwards, stiff, Can you hear

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Speaker 1: those pedals? Yeah, he's just turning round.

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Speaker 4: No. No, some of my best friends listen to the

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Speaker 4: country you know, it's but so so that that's the

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Speaker 4: first thing that came to mind. But the second thing,

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Speaker 4: what that reminds me of Craig The story of once

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Speaker 4: people learned out that it was artificially created rather than

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Speaker 4: by a human reminds me of the story of Milli Vanilli.

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Speaker 4: You remember these guys, Yeah, yeah, like early nineties or

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Speaker 4: something like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, correct, Tiff.

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Speaker 4: You probably don't know Milli Vanilli. Right, it's not ice Cream,

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Speaker 4: It's it's this duo, this musical duo who were not

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Speaker 4: a music group at all. They were lip syncing the

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Speaker 4: whole time. They put two pretty faces and good dancers

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Speaker 4: out in front to lip sync this music that was

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Speaker 4: actually sung by somebody else. And once people found that out,

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Speaker 4: once that story broke and they found out that these

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Speaker 4: guys were faking it, there were like bonfires of their

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Speaker 4: CDs and LPs, you know, lit on fire because people

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Speaker 4: were so angry at the deception. And maybe they see

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Speaker 4: AI generated music or writing as a deception of sorts,

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Speaker 4: even though it kind of plagiarizes all of what humanity

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Speaker 4: has already done and assembles it in a way using algorithms,

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Speaker 4: assembles it in a way that plays into our psychology,

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Speaker 4: so it knows what we like and dislike. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: it reminds me of the whole million Vanilli thing. So

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Speaker 4: I totally understand the reaction of some of the people

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Speaker 4: that you said once they found out it was fake

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Speaker 4: or artificially generated. But I guess I guess personally, you know,

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Speaker 4: if you like a song, you like a song, you

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Speaker 4: know you can't deny the fact that there's something about

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Speaker 4: it that you found enjoyable. So I'm not quite sure

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Speaker 4: I would deny myself that joy just because it was

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Speaker 4: generated by a computer. You know, the difference here is

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Speaker 4: that computer is drawing upon the collective contributions of human society,

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Speaker 4: so it's just putting them together in a way that

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Speaker 4: you know, a country artist would. And you know, I

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Speaker 4: guess I have a little more nuanced look at whether

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Speaker 4: I would discount the creation just because I found out

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Speaker 4: it was artificially generated.

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Speaker 1: Do you use AI in your research? Like it feels

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Speaker 1: like AI could do some of the grunt work that's not.

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Speaker 3: Particularly glamorous and then you do the actual thinking stuff.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, those those sorts of rules and regulations are

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Speaker 4: currently being debated. You know, how much AI are we

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Speaker 4: going to to allow someone to use if they're going

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Speaker 4: to submit a grand application, for example, or a paper.

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Speaker 4: But AI is going to easily be utilized like within

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Speaker 4: data interpretation. And we're already seeing the evolution of tools

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Speaker 4: that can take huge, massive data sets and instead of

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Speaker 4: a human being toiling away for days, sometimes weeks, trying

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Speaker 4: to find something interesting in this data set, AI can

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Speaker 4: do it in seconds. See why you should I don't

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Speaker 4: see why you shouldn't take advantage of that.

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Speaker 3: Hund percent. All right on with the show. So with

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Speaker 3: that in mind, I knew I was going to ask

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Speaker 3: you about that.

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Speaker 1: With that in mind, I asked chat Jpat to write

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Speaker 1: a show intro. So I'm being very transparent everyone. I

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Speaker 1: did not write what I'm about to read, and everything

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Speaker 1: up until now has been scripted by II old Doctor

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Speaker 1: Bill's staff.

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Speaker 3: Everything TIF said, I write it now, that's not true.

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Speaker 3: That's not true. It's all organic.

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Speaker 1: Everything's always organic, unless I've otherwise notified this.

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Speaker 3: What I'm about to read is not me.

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Speaker 1: But what I love is it's learned how to write

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Speaker 1: a bit like I talk. Anyway, Here we go show intro.

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Speaker 1: That's what it says. Today, we're talking about something that

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Speaker 1: sounds like science fiction but is edging closer to science

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Speaker 1: fact the idea of exercise in a pill. We all

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Speaker 1: know that exercise is basically nature's Swiss army knife. It

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Speaker 1: improves mood, memory, sleep, immune function, metabolic health, longevity, brain plasticity,

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Speaker 1: and the list goes on. It's the closest thing we've

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Speaker 1: ever had to a true miracle drug. But for millions

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Speaker 1: of people, exercise is also incredibly difficult. Illness, age, injury,

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Speaker 1: chronic pain, disability, time pressures, or simply the realities of

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Speaker 1: life can get in the way.

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Speaker 3: So here's the big question. Scientists are now asking, if the.

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Speaker 1: Body creates powerful health boosting chemicals when we move, can

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Speaker 1: we isolate those chemicals and put them into a therapeutic form.

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Speaker 1: Two new studies suggest we might be, so then we think.

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Speaker 1: One found that hype, I'm not fucking up your message here,

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Speaker 1: doctor Bill. One found that factors released into the blood

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Speaker 1: during excise can literally stimulate new brain cell growth in

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Speaker 1: sedentory mice. Another discovered that sustained.

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Speaker 3: Physical activity boost production of a meta metabolite called betaine,

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Speaker 3: which seems to mimic some of exercises anti aging and

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Speaker 3: anti inflammatory effects.

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Speaker 1: So what does this mean for medicine? For healthy aging

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Speaker 1: for people who can't exercise, and what happens to us

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Speaker 1: psychologically psychologically if we outsource the physical effort to a pill.

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Speaker 1: To help us make sense of all of this, I'm

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Speaker 1: joined by Professor Bill Sullivan Junior, a geneticist, author, and

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Speaker 1: science communicator, to explore what these fightings mean, what's real,

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Speaker 1: what's hype, and whether an exercise pill is in the

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Speaker 1: future or just a fascinating detour. Let's jump in. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show, Professor pil That's not bad, is it?

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Speaker 4: I mean, honestly not bad. It's great. It's really good.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's terror upon most of the major topics

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Speaker 4: that I spent hours researching, you know, to write the

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Speaker 4: article that I sent you. You know, it's it's just

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Speaker 4: a little scary. How fantastic the technology is. It really

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Speaker 4: hits on all the major points. So then you know,

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Speaker 4: until next time, Craig, you know.

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Speaker 3: I guess it's been great. So tell us tell us

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Speaker 3: about this idea.

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Speaker 1: When I first heard it, I'm like, I was just

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Speaker 1: philosophically opposed. But then I read the article and I went, okay,

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Speaker 1: I've got a greater understanding now, So I was I

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Speaker 1: was less opposed, but unpack up for us if you would.

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Speaker 4: No, I had the same reaction you did, as you

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Speaker 4: probably remember, I said on the show a number of times,

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Speaker 4: I'm an avid runner. I love getting out there and

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Speaker 4: you know, running the trails and the feeling of that

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Speaker 4: is just, you know, remarkable, and I know it's really

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Speaker 4: good for my brain and body as well. So when

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Speaker 4: I first heard that someone can pack exercise into a pill,

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Speaker 4: or that this concept was being developed, it's kind of cringe.

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Speaker 4: You know, why would we even want to do such

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Speaker 4: a thing when exercise literally is kind of the best

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Speaker 4: medicine or Swiss army knife, as your AI generated text declared.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I had that initial response, But then you

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Speaker 4: take a little pause and think about it for a moment,

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Speaker 4: and you're like, you know, I can think of certain

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Speaker 4: individuals where that could be a life saver. You know,

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Speaker 4: it maybe wouldn't be for me, maybe wouldn't be good

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Speaker 4: for you, Craig or Tiff wouldn't want to do it,

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Speaker 4: But no one's going to force you to. What this

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Speaker 4: is being developed for are for the individuals who cannot

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Speaker 4: avail themselves of opportunities to exercise. Just like your computer said,

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Speaker 4: so what are those cases, Well, people with injuries, people

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Speaker 4: with a debilitating disease might be bedridden, or or who

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Speaker 4: just aren't in an environment where exercise is easy. They

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Speaker 4: don't have access to a gym, they can't really run outside.

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Speaker 4: It's a little more challenging for them to get exercise.

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Speaker 4: And your computer was not wrong. Exercise is fantastic medicine.

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Speaker 4: And I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but

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Speaker 4: the physical and mental health benefits that come from exercise,

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Speaker 4: it's just hard to conceive that you could pack all

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Speaker 4: of those into a pill because the advantages are are

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Speaker 4: are just so plentiful. So what scientists are slowly trying

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Speaker 4: to do, you know, I think to say that we

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Speaker 4: can put exercise into a pill is really putting the

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Speaker 4: cart before the horse here. What these studies are actually

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Speaker 4: doing are identifying some factors in isolation that seem to

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Speaker 4: be induced or enhanced because of exercise. And when we

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Speaker 4: see that as scientists, we're like, well, that molecule could

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Speaker 4: be interesting. Maybe it's bestowing some of the benefits that

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Speaker 4: exercise allows participants to enjoy. So they isolate that molecule

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Speaker 4: or those factors and they can put them into mice

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Speaker 4: or maybe even humans if it's an ethical experiment and

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Speaker 4: see what happens. And in some cases low and behold,

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Speaker 4: those molecules actually do help, you know, in those laboratory settings.

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Speaker 4: So that's what that's what's getting scientists excited about this

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Speaker 4: sort of technology. But yeah, you're the initial thought is

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Speaker 4: a lot of athletes or you know, people who like

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Speaker 4: going to the gym and so on, are going to

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Speaker 4: cringe when they hear that. And there's also the concern

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Speaker 4: if you flip the script around the other way, is

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Speaker 4: this going to jeopardize the equity of competition? You know,

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Speaker 4: if there's exercise in a pill, what if athletes take it,

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Speaker 4: do they get boost and would not be considered cheating?

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Speaker 4: You know, there was a good questions to consider too.

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Speaker 3: That is I did not think of that at all.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think even your computer mentioned that one.

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Speaker 4: So I still have some utility.

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Speaker 1: You still it's somewhat diminished, but you still have a perpose.

436
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 3: But the time being, we're going to keep getting you on.

437
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: I mean, you know what is interesting about I never

438
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: thought about somebody who already exercises and is fit and

439
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: healthy potentially using the same medication or pill or whatever.

440
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: But one of the things that.

441
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: From a conceptual point of view and a philosophical point

442
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: of view and even a scientific point of view, like

443
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: everybody panics when you.

444
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 3: Talk about performance enhancing. You know in Australia that the

445
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 3: everything is regulated very stringently, right, there's drug testing all

446
00:25:58,240 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 3: the time.

447
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: And you know, and I know that that people cheat

448
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: in sport. They cheat in probably every sport in every

449
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: country some people. But what's ironic to me is, as

450
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: an excise scientist, everything that we do for athletes in

451
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 1: terms of you know, their training and their preparation and

452
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: their recovery and their nutrition and their lifestyle and all

453
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: of the interventions and the protocols that we put in place,

454
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: all of them are for performance enhancement.

455
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 3: Like training is performance enhancing, good nutrition is performance enhancing.

456
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 3: Great sleepers performance you know, if you're lacking vitamin C,

457
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 3: vitamin c's performance enhancing. You know.

458
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: It's like, I remember, I worked at a professional so

459
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: you have the NFL, we have the AFL. So I

460
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: worked at one of the AFL clubs for four years

461
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: in our national league. And I remember so I was

462
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: the exercise science guy, training, conditioning, recovery, all of that,

463
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: and when I first started working there, I remember. So

464
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: we have a stadium here called the MCG, which is

465
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: the Melbourne Cricket Ground, holds one hundred thousand people, and

466
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: I was.

467
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 3: It was one of my early first two.

468
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: Or three games that I was at as part of

469
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: the staff, and there was I don't know how many

470
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: people there, seventy thousand people. And a player comes off.

471
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: He's injured. He rolled his ankle. He's got a significant

472
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: kind of ligament issue. He can't run, he can't wait

473
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: bear and then he goes down the race, into the

474
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: change rooms, into the medical rooms, he gets an injection,

475
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: and ten minutes later he's back on the ground running

476
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: around like he has no injury. Now, so what do

477
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: they do, Well, this guy can't run, They inject him

478
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: with a painkiller and probably an anti inflammatory, and now

479
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: he can't feel that his foot still injured. Obviously his

480
00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: foot isn't miraculous.

481
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 3: Cue. But if that's not performance enhancing, what is. But

482
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 3: it's funny.

483
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: In our psychology of performance enhancement at an elite level,

484
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: we go, oh, that's not that's okay because that's a

485
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: painkiller and that's an anti inflammatory, and neither of those

486
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: are on the prohibited list on the WADA or the

487
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: USADA or the whatever it is band list, and you're like, yeah,

488
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: but that guy couldn't even fucking walk because he's got

489
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:28,959
Speaker 1: an injury.

490
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,239
Speaker 3: Then you inject him and now he's running. Yeah, that

491
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 3: used to mess with Yeah.

492
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, that's a good that's a good point. And

493
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 4: you know another ethical conundrum when we're trying to make

494
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 4: competitions fair. I would dial it back on another level.

495
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 4: You know, there are certain athletes out there, like who

496
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 4: play basketball, who are just seven feet tall, seven feet tall,

497
00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 4: and you had this, you know, this controversy years ago

498
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 4: with this Olympic skier who could make incredible runs and

499
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 4: it turns out he had a genetic mutation that somehow

500
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 4: made his blood bind oxygen better than most human beings. Yeah.

501
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 4: I wrote about that in my book. I'm surprised you

502
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 4: don't remember it.

503
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: Hang on, let me just that guy, that guy.

504
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 4: I can't I wrote the damn book and I can't

505
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 4: even remember his name. But I bet chat GTP Will

506
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 4: or GPT Will. But you get the point. And Michael Phelps,

507
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 4: this swimmer he's got he's like a genetic variation in

508
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 4: his arm length or something that makes him this unbeatable swimmer.

509
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 4: So are the records that are set by athletes like

510
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 4: this who just have genetic mutations that give them a

511
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 4: physical attribute that most people will not have, you know?

512
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 4: Is that fair? I think that's that's an interesting question

513
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 4: that we should put on them, put on the table

514
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 4: if we're going to try to discuss making sports equitable.

515
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: I just think that genetic variability can't be one of

516
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: the things because I mean, if that's just in DNA,

517
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: if that's how you are, like, we can't kind of

518
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: control for that. So you go, well, I mean, like

519
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: I've worked with I also work in the National Netball League.

520
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: Netball is a.

521
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: Commonwealth game Canada, England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, A lot

522
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: of countries play, America not but and there are girls

523
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: in the league, women in the league, and also in

524
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: the WNBA and also the WNBL the basketball in Australia

525
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: and the States. And to be fair, some of them

526
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: are not great athletes. They're just six foot eight, so,

527
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: you know, and it's not that you know better athletes

528
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: than me, so and it's not that they're terrible athletes,

529
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: but they're playing with other players who are five ft

530
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: eight and so they almost don't have to dunk to

531
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: shoot the ball, sorry, jump to dunk, or in netball

532
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: you don't dunk. But yeah, it's just and you go, well,

533
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: it is what it is, you know, and then you

534
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: can you combine her extraordinary or his extraordinary height. They're

535
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: eleven out of ten height with maybe five out of

536
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: ten athleticism. But the net result is somebody who can

537
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: do that job pretty well. So that just is what

538
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: it is.

539
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I find it fascinating that we're willing to

540
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 4: give like genetic mutations a pass and we're saying, okay,

541
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 4: well that's that's an ethical you know pass, because that's

542
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 4: something they were born with they couldn't control it. But

543
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 4: we will not give a pass to someone who uses

544
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 4: their brain to figure out a way to enhance their performance,

545
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 4: like say through doping or something like that. Yes, for me,

546
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 4: I don't see much difference, you know, whether it's a

547
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 4: physical versus an intellectual gift, whichever one you employ to

548
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 4: enhance your performance.

549
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I.

550
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 4: Mean I see the difference. But then again I don't

551
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 4: see the difference. You know.

552
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: What's funny is it's just the protocol, isn't it. You

553
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: think about if somebody taking APO or something that's going

554
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: to increase your blood's ability to carry oxygen or deliver oxygen,

555
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: which means you're going to if I get any of

556
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: this wrong, you're the expert. But if I fuck this up,

557
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: let me know. But which is going to increase people's

558
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: time to exhaustion? Right, So it's going to give them

559
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: a kind of a temporarily high VO two max or

560
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: lactate threshold or whatever. So they can do that through doping,

561
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: But they can also get the same physiological result through

562
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: training at altitude or living at altitude. So the next

563
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: result is the same. Well, they've got more oxygen in

564
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: their blood, so their endurance is improved. So they're they're

565
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: getting the exact same response, but the protocol is different.

566
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 3: One protocol is not okay and the other protocol is okay,

567
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 3: even though they both enhance performance the same way.

568
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an interest. It's an interesting question.

569
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I love it. All right, let's go back

570
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 3: to this article.

571
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: So, so how far away is this from being a

572
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,959
Speaker 1: real thing in humans or is it is it here already?

573
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 4: I think it depends on how we view the final product.

574
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 4: I think if you're looking for like a single pill

575
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 4: that packs a huge amount of benefits from exercise, you know,

576
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 4: into a therapeutic form, we're way off from that. You know,

577
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 4: there's just no way. We're just beginning to understand what

578
00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 4: some of the molecular players are when we size and

579
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 4: obtain some kind of mental or health benefit from that,

580
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 4: and there's undoubtedly going to be hundreds, maybe thousands more. Okay.

581
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 4: One of the things that I think might be more

582
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 4: immediate on the horizon are kind of like the two

583
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 4: studies that came out just this past month that I

584
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 4: talked about in the article, and I'll elaborate on those

585
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 4: in a moment, but those are on a much smaller scale.

586
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 4: They're like a single molecule or a group of molecules

587
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 4: that seem to have modest benefits, or at least certain

588
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 4: types of benefits. That is something I think can be

589
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 4: moved forward very quickly, whether we do this legally or not.

590
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 4: You know, I think there's a lot of these things

591
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 4: that are going to be pounced upon by biohackers or

592
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 4: the supplement industry, and they're going you know, they're already

593
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 4: kind of doing this already they throw out claims about

594
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 4: certain molecules. Hey, it was found in this study which

595
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 4: was done in rats or whatever that you know, rats,

596
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 4: given this supplement X, all of a sudden, they're exercising

597
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 4: a lot better by our product. And with that very

598
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 4: minimal amount of evidence, you can put a product on

599
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 4: the shelf, at least in the States, without anyone batting

600
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 4: an eyelash, and first, god knows whatever reason, you know,

601
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 4: millions of people snatch it up and they throw tons

602
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 4: of money at these companies for unsubstantiated claims. But that's

603
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 4: totally legal over here. And what I want to you know,

604
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 4: talk about in these studies was something really interesting because

605
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 4: what the first study did, and this was done in mice,

606
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 4: actually they basically put mice into two different types of cages,

607
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 4: one with an exercise wheel and one that didn't have one.

608
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 4: So a month later you had, you know, these these

609
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 4: mice that look like you crag, these these nice, bulky

610
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 4: muscular mice because they've been running on a wheel for

611
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 4: a month. And then in the other cage they kind

612
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 4: of look like me, you know, just this this scrawny

613
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 4: little little guy wearing glasses. But that's what that's what

614
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 4: these mice would look like in these different cages. But

615
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 4: here's where it gets interesting. They isolated from both groups

616
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 4: of mice. They isolated these extracellular vesicles from the bloodstream

617
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 4: of each of those mice. Now, what are extracellular vesicles.

618
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 4: These are actually packets of molecules that get released by

619
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 4: cells in your body to go tell other cells and

620
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 4: organs what to do. So they're kind of communication devices

621
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 4: that the cells in your body uses to change your physiology.

622
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 4: And in the brain that happens too. Extracellular vesicles release

623
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 4: neurotransmitters that signal to other brain cells to do certain things,

624
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 4: or you know, it gets you to think or feel

625
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 4: different ways. So these communication vesicles were isolated, and the

626
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 4: contents between the exercised mice versus the ones that weren't

627
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 4: exercised are different. And I don't know what all those

628
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 4: differences mean yet. We're talking about dozens of different factors

629
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 4: in these vesicles. But what they did do they can

630
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 4: take the vesicles isolated from each group of mice and

631
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 4: put them into lazy mice mice that haven't been exercised,

632
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 4: and just by putting in those extracellular vesicles, they saw

633
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 4: new brain cells growing in the hipocampus of those lazy mice,

634
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 4: and that only happened with the extracellular vesicles from the

635
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 4: fit mice. The sedentary mice didn't have any effect, So

636
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 4: their exercise is really what it really means to in

637
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 4: a very simple What this really means in a simple

638
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 4: way is that when these mice were exercising one they

639
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 4: were making factors that promoted brain cell growth in their

640
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 4: hippocampus and that's the center for memory and learning. And

641
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 4: this explains why a lot of people who exercise typically

642
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 4: are a lot sharper or are less susceptible to dementia

643
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 4: as they age. Exercise has very clear effects on the brain,

644
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 4: and if we can dive into these extracyllular vesicles and

645
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 4: identify what their contents do, we could very well come

646
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 4: up with new therapies that can deliver some of the

647
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 4: benefits of exercise without actually having to go work out

648
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 4: or break a sweat. And like we said, there are

649
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 4: subsets of people in our population and who could really

650
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 4: benefit from something like that. So I thought that was

651
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 4: a really cool study. It teaches us something about the

652
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,280
Speaker 4: mechanisms of exercise and why it's so healthy and important

653
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 4: to do, but it also points us toward possible therapies

654
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 4: for people who really don't exercise or can't exercise for

655
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 4: whatever reason.

656
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: Can I zoom out from the micro of this particular

657
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: study and ask you a more macro question for people

658
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: who for whom research and this kind of study and

659
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 1: learning is unfamiliar. What's the process of something going from

660
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: a study with mice or rats or whatever.

661
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 3: I know it's not quick, and I know it's not painless, But.

662
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: How does that work in terms of that becoming eventually

663
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 1: a human study, getting ethical approval, getting funding?

664
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 3: All of that?

665
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: Is that a and I know it varies, but that's

666
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 1: probably closer to a ten year process than a one

667
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: or two year process.

668
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 3: Am I right?

669
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 4: Oh? I would say, so there's still be a lot

670
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 4: more pre clinical studies, which means more animal studies to

671
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 4: verify this result. You know, this was a one off experiment,

672
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 4: so you want to see that it can get repeated,

673
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,959
Speaker 4: and then you would want to take it into either

674
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 4: non human primates or humans themselves. Some of the things

675
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 4: you could do right now would be to try to

676
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 4: isolate these extracellular vesicles from exercising humans versus those who

677
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 4: don't get a lot of exercise and see how the

678
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 4: contents are different and whether it provides any clues as

679
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 4: to why people who exercise seem to have certain medical

680
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 4: benefits that sedentary people do not have. So that would

681
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 4: be a good start. But you know, the other angle

682
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 4: to your question there is how do we progress once

683
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 4: we find, say, like a key protein in these extracellular

684
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 4: vesicles that seem to be a major player, Well, then

685
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 4: you'd have to do some safety trials and humans in

686
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 4: the US we call that stage one clinical trials, and

687
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 4: that's just to test whether it can be tolerated and

688
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 4: make sure it doesn't produce any side effects or harm.

689
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 4: And then that's done in a relatively small group of

690
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 4: people for obvious reasons, because they're kind of human guinea

691
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 4: pigs at that point. And then we go into phase

692
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 4: two clinical trials, which are much larger, and we start

693
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 4: putting it into more people to see, you know, we're

694
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 4: pretty sure that it's safe, but we still monitor for

695
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 4: side effects. But the real we get at the real

696
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 4: heart of the question, and we start identically, you know,

697
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 4: we start to try to determine does this factor actually

698
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,240
Speaker 4: improve brain performance? And there'll be a battery of essays

699
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 4: how that could be assessed, you know, and then to

700
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 4: be a final phase three clinical trial that goes into

701
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 4: even more people where safety and efficacy is determined with

702
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 4: a great deal of confidence. So, yeah, you're talking a

703
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 4: long road, an expensive road. It'll be much much easier

704
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 4: if companies can identify something that is already in our

705
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 4: diet or already considered safe, and they can market that

706
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 4: as a supplement.

707
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. One of the things I was thinking about, like

708
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 3: when the first book that I wrote was.

709
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: About basically the psychology of getting in shape, not the physiology,

710
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, And I'm always talking to people about the

711
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: numerous you know, apart from cognitive benefits of exercise, but

712
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: the you know, the sociological, psychological, emotional benefits of working

713
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: out and whether or not that's you running in the woods,

714
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: or whether or not that's me training with you know,

715
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: some of my friends at the gym, or whatever the activity,

716
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: whatever the environment, whatever the intensity, but the benefits that

717
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: come from working out and doing something hard that is

718
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: uncomfortable but also builds you know, adaptability and resilience and

719
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: a little bit of mental toughness and confidence and self

720
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: worth and self esteem. And kind of an understanding of

721
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: one's own potential when they'd break through things they couldn't like.

722
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: I just think there are a huge amount of benefits.

723
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 3: That come from the process of exercise that probably can't

724
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 3: come from a pill.

725
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 4: Oh, I couldn't agree more. Those are psychological benefits of exercise,

726
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 4: and it's really hard to imagine a pill that can

727
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 4: come up with such things. You know what, I go

728
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 4: out to run, it's because I want to reduce stress.

729
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 4: It's because I enjoy the solitude. I get to listen

730
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 4: to some music, and you know, I know people who

731
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 4: do team sports. They love the camaraderie and they love

732
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 4: the friendships and the social aspects of it. You raise

733
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 4: a good point about achieving fitness goals, you know, going

734
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 4: beyond what you thought was your limit. That's very rewarding.

735
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 4: So yeah, there's a new morble psychological benefits to exercise

736
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 4: that I don't think a pill could ever emulate. And

737
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 4: those are things that I wouldn't want to give up

738
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 4: if such a pill were invented, because I would really

739
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 4: miss getting outside and enjoying nature and you know, feeling

740
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,720
Speaker 4: all those other psychological benefits we mentioned.

741
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 3: I know it's kind of high level guessing at the moment,

742
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 3: because it's not real, sorry or not.

743
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 4: It's still pretty cool to think about.

744
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 3: Would you take it, Like if you're doing what you're

745
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 3: already doing, If it was a vilable and you knew

746
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 3: it could give you some additional benefit, would you take.

747
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 4: It At the time, I don't see a need why

748
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 4: I would take it. You know, I'm getting plenty of exercise,

749
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 4: and as long as my body can still do that,

750
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 4: I don't see need for a pill. Now if for

751
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 4: some reason, you know, let's say I go out there

752
00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 4: and I sprain my ankle or something on a and

753
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 4: I'm going to be out of commission for a month

754
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 4: or so, then I might consider it because if it's

755
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 4: you know, in assuming I can't do other substitute exercises,

756
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 4: because then it would kind of fill that gap, you know,

757
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 4: since I can't go out and obtain these benefits naturally.

758
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 4: If the pill is safe and efficacious, I think you

759
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 4: could make a case for why it would be useful

760
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 4: under those conditions. And you know, I'm not going to

761
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 4: be this age forever. I'm going to probably have a

762
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 4: body that falls apart gradually as I get older, and

763
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 4: if a pill that comes out a so called exercise

764
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 4: pill can stave off dementia pretty effectively. I think it'd

765
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 4: be foolish not to take it.

766
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, as somebody with parents who are at the

767
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: pointy end of their journey, anything that helps keep the

768
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 1: old brain working for longer, I'm at least I.

769
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 3: Open to discussion.

770
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: It's I feel like, yeah, it's I think in the

771
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: old days, I'm going to say in the old days.

772
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 1: But it's like thinking about health span wasn't even an idea, right,

773
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: it was all lifespan and thinking about even the idea

774
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: of what can I do. I'm always talking about this now,

775
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: and probably because I'm older and I'm aware of this,

776
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: so I'm more proactive and I'm more considerate of this

777
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: stuff personally, But just the concept of, oh, what can

778
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: I proactively do to make my brain work better and

779
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: make my brain healthier and be atypical when I'm seventy

780
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: or seventy five or eighty. Not for a goic reasons

781
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: or not because I want to look good or be

782
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: better than anyone, but just well, shit, I can have

783
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 1: a brain that works at nine out of ten when

784
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 1: I'm seventy, or a brain that works out a three

785
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: out of ten when I'm seventy, potentially depend on how

786
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: I manage my brain, sleep, food, exercise, supplementation, you know,

787
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: stress management, all of these things. I feel like it's

788
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: a relatively new idea to manage our brain and to

789
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: have a personal strategy for doing that.

790
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we should take a look at all

791
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 4: the data that's out there in order to make a

792
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 4: wise and informed decision because everyone wants to have a

793
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 4: high quality of life. I totally agree that the length

794
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 4: of it place second fiddle to the quality that you're

795
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 4: going to enjoy. And if there are good evidence based study,

796
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 4: you know, you know, studies that point you in direction

797
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 4: of something that can help you, and safety trials have

798
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 4: been done, I don't see why you would deny that.

799
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 4: You know, it'd be just like any other medicine that

800
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 4: you would go take.

801
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 3: So my question for you is how much do you

802
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 3: like you are?

803
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: You are the ultimate scientist and I love that and

804
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: that's your job and that's what you're meant to be.

805
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what it says on my office door. Yeah,

806
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 4: I know it's a scientist.

807
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know.

808
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: Well, they're bringing out that movie called The Ultimate Scientist

809
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: and I think Matt Damo is playing.

810
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 4: I want to take you to my next post tenured review.

811
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 4: You know, Craig says, I am an ultimate scientist.

812
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll just send you a little letter like mum

813
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: would send me to school with a letter I'll send

814
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 1: I go, dear Boffins, Dear Boffins, please find and.

815
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 3: Closed my review of Professor Bill.

816
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: I was going to say, like, I'm I have one

817
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: foot in science, maybe one and a half feet in science,

818
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: but I also have like a foot or half a

819
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: foot in instinct and intuition, and like for me, where

820
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,439
Speaker 1: like science might tell us that meditation is a really

821
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: good thing for stress and for lowering cortisol and lowering

822
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 1: heart rate and you know, switching on the parasympathic nervous system.

823
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, not for me, though, I go, yeah,

824
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: fuck your research.

825
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 3: That doesn't work for me.

826
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: Like, I think that there's the stuff that we kind

827
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: of know broadly that's in the macro of this seems

828
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: to be applicable and relevant and effective for most people

829
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 1: with this condition or this goal or whatever.

830
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 3: But then I think also down to the.

831
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: Biofeedback of my own body and the self awareness and

832
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: the understanding, you know, trying to understand my own brain

833
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: and my own nervous system and my own physiology in

834
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: the middle of all of this ever present myriad of

835
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 1: variables and factors that I navigate and back to Tiffs's

836
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: conversation before about her motorbike, like, she can be on

837
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 1: her motorbike, can come and somebody else will be on it.

838
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: So it might actually literally be more therapeutic.

839
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 3: For her to go for a motorbike ride than to,

840
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 3: you know, perhaps do a stretching class or.

841
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 1: A you know, some kind of mindfulness meditation. So I

842
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: guess my long winded question is how much for you

843
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: is all about just following the research and the data,

844
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 1: and how much is also tuning into your own intuition

845
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: and instinct and knowing for you personally.

846
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 4: Wow, that's a difficult question to answer because it's kind

847
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 4: of like one you do on a case by case basis.

848
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 4: But I would say one of the misconceptions that a

849
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 4: lot of people have when you say this study shows

850
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,760
Speaker 4: this or this study shows that is that it applies

851
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 4: to all people, which is not true. The research is

852
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 4: always like a bell curve, and it's going to be

853
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 4: outliers of people who were analyzed in that study, or

854
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 4: even mice that didn't show the effect. And yeah, they

855
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 4: might be in the minority of that data set, but

856
00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 4: they're still there. Okay. So while the evidence shows, to

857
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,839
Speaker 4: draw on your example, Craig, while the evidence shows that

858
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 4: mindfulness meditation can dramatically reduce stress in very measurable ways

859
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 4: for most people, Yes, that doesn't mean all people, you know.

860
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 4: So I think people who have an instinct that it

861
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 4: won't work for them, give it a try, and if

862
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 4: you're right, perhaps you can obtain those benefits in a

863
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 4: different fashion. Not everything is going to float everybody's boat

864
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 4: in the same way. So you just need to, you know,

865
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 4: find find out what's right for you. I have a

866
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 4: I think instincts a double ed sword because it's an

867
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 4: impulsive reaction, right, It's it's kind of emotion and a feeling,

868
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 4: and we need those. They're important, but they're primal and

869
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 4: they're crude, and they can be often wrong. And that's

870
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 4: why we have a prefrontal cortex to do things like

871
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 4: research that can educate us as to whether our instincts

872
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 4: are spot on or if they're incorrect. So I I

873
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 4: guess I enjoy having both. At my disposal, I rely

874
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 4: on instinct because I think there's evolutionary wisdom when our

875
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 4: bodies are trying to tell us something, but it's not

876
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 4: right all the time. You know, I've had plenty of

877
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 4: instincts that were dead wrong. Just ask my wife. You know,

878
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 4: I get lots of things wrong when I'm trying to

879
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 4: read her mind. So I rely on my memory and

880
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 4: evidence and things of that nature. So yeah, that I

881
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 4: think you raise a really incredibly good point, because I

882
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 4: think when we talk to most people, they're kind of

883
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 4: on one side of the coin or the other. Right,

884
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 4: you know, it's all about instinct or it's all about science,

885
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 4: And I think, no, you've got to marry both of

886
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 4: those in order to reap the benefits that both of

887
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 4: those mechanisms create.

888
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 3: I lock that it's nuanced.

889
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 4: And also I'm not trying to like waffle out of

890
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 4: the question. And I genuinely think that's how.

891
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 3: You totally wasting out of the question. Ducking and weaving.

892
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 4: Play off one another. They they do.

893
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,240
Speaker 3: Having said that, no, I I one hundred percent agree

894
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 3: with you.

895
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: But then also, you know, to think that science is

896
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: infallible and that the people that do science interpret the

897
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: science run, the science finance, the science that that's not

898
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: flawed or that's not wrong. Often, I mean that's also ridiculous.

899
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: So you know, to go, what does the research say? Well,

900
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: I'm I'm like, yeah, but who you know? Is it

901
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 1: ansel Keys? Is it the food pyramid?

902
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 4: Is it?

903
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 3: Like?

904
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of research that ended up

905
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 1: being completely flawed in many ways that became law l

906
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: o E and was strictly adhered to and followed and

907
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: touted as the best way to do this or that.

908
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: Then we subsequently found out that it's that you know,

909
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 1: not completely true or completely false. So I think that.

910
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 4: What got us? Are there more research humans humans? So

911
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 4: you're saying the problems of research can only be cured

912
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 4: by more research. Well, I'm thinking, well, are we going

913
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 4: to go about fixing this?

914
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 1: Well, you could also say that what got us there

915
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: was people asking better questions and doubting and having the

916
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: awareness that I'm eating the way that I'm meant to eat,

917
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: but I'm not getting the outcome that I should get

918
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: and in fact, on this low fat model of eating,

919
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,720
Speaker 1: I'm gaining fat, which is meant to be the opposite.

920
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 3: Of what it does. So I think that's more just

921
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 3: instinct and awareness and curiosity that then eventually, but I

922
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 3: don't think it's one or the other. And Monash might

923
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 3: kick me out of the program haying all of this.

924
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 3: They might go, you realize you're a scientific research I

925
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 3: get it.

926
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 1: I get it, but I don't think that needs to

927
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: be We don't need to be dogmatic or religious. But yeah,

928
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: I think for you, for the most part, I'm with you.

929
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 3: I think that you know, the research is the research,

930
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 3: and most of it these days, I think it's worth

931
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 3: paying attention to.

932
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 4: Well, I think to illustrate some of the points you're making, Craig,

933
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 4: some of the areas where things get into trouble is

934
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 4: when people want to make a quick buck. Okay, they

935
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 4: will run, especially in the diet and supplemental space. You know,

936
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 4: they glomb on to a handful of studies, sometimes just one,

937
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 4: and they run with it like it's dogma already and

938
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 4: it hasn't been repeated, it hasn't been robustly demonstrated, and

939
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 4: that's not usually a scientist's fault. That's a business person's fault,

940
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 4: and it makes science look bad.

941
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally.

942
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 4: Agree with you.

943
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: I can't remember what it was Oh, yeah, I can.

944
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 1: I might have even spoken about it. I saw one

945
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 1: recently about some supplement that was meant to do some

946
00:55:56,160 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 1: amazing thing for elderly people who were weaken It was

947
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 1: was meant to improve strength and all these outcomes without training,

948
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: and it was like scientifically proven. And then I went

949
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: down a rabbit hole and it was just complete garbage.

950
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: It was like, it's not like, oh, it was kind

951
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: of true. No, it was total garbage. I love chatting

952
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: with you. We love chatting with you. I will write

953
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: that letter of recommendation that you can take when you

954
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: meet with the board next time.

955
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,479
Speaker 4: I'm sure they will be really impressed when they see

956
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:28,919
Speaker 4: your name.

957
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 3: Oh I feel like that's hurtful. Can you believe what

958
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:43,479
Speaker 3: he just said? No, that's sincerely, It's like, who is fuck?

959
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 3: Every third sentence that guy.

960
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 4: And that recommendation letter better have plenty of F bombs.

961
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 4: But wait, do you hand your thesis in because then

962
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 4: you can say doctor Craig Harper. You know it gives

963
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 4: it a real air of authenticity.

964
00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:58,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do that.

965
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: Hey, we appreciate you. Do you want to point anyone

966
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: at our audience towards anything before you say goodbye.

967
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, thanks, Craig. Tell you what when you post

968
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 4: on Facebook the announcement for this episode, I will put

969
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 4: in the comments a free link to the article that

970
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 4: we've been discussing today because there's a couple of things

971
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 4: in there we didn't get time to go over, so

972
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 4: the fans of your podcast will be able to go

973
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 4: access that for free, and if they want to follow

974
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 4: me on this platform called medium, they're more than welcome

975
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 4: to do so. We referred to my book a couple

976
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 4: times that's called Please to Meet Me Jeans, Germs and

977
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 4: the curious forces that make us who we are. You

978
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 4: can pick that book up at any booksellers, find out

979
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 4: what the name of that Olympics gear was, who had

980
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 4: that notation that allowed him to do superhuman things, and

981
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 4: many many other really interesting facets of why we do

982
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 4: the things we do. So yeah, thanks, thanks for having

983
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 4: me on, Craig. It's been a lot of fun, not

984
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 4: just today but all year long it's been. It's been

985
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 4: great to come and talk to you once a month.

986
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 3: Thank you, sir. We genuinely I love having you on.

987
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 3: Tiff loves having you on and out we always get

988
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 3: great feedback about you. But yeah, thank you so much.

989
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 1: We'll say goodbye a fair but Professor Bill tiff did

990
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: you find that scare with the mutation yet?

991
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 3: You're trying to find it now, aren't.

992
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 2: You going to? I'm going to.

993
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 3: Oh all right, Thanks everyone, Thanks to