1
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,840
Speaker 1: Really interesting book that landed on the desk a week

2
00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,920
Speaker 1: or so ago called An Everyone Story by Duncan mckeller.

3
00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,080
Speaker 1: If the name's familiar. Duncan was one of the co

4
00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:15,520
Speaker 1: authors of the Oakton Report after the news broke there

5
00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,759
Speaker 1: of just absolutely appalling way people inside were being treated,

6
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,840
Speaker 1: and he's written a book based on that. And it's

7
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,360
Speaker 1: interesting that we were just talking with Dr samar An

8
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 1: regarding the Compassionate Communities Australia Institution that she has set

9
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,640
Speaker 1: up this book finding our Way back to compassion, hope

10
00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,840
Speaker 1: and humanity, and I like that tie in, and that's

11
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,319
Speaker 1: just accidental, that's the way it turned out. Duncan is here.

12
00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,839
Speaker 1: Duncan mckella, Good morning, Welcome to the studio.

13
00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:46,400
Speaker 2: Thanks Matthew. Great to be here.

14
00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,239
Speaker 1: Told me about the book, what led to this? Obviously

15
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,120
Speaker 1: the report being co author of that a big part

16
00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:52,560
Speaker 1: of your life, clearly.

17
00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,840
Speaker 2: Sure so. Look, it was one of those moments that

18
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,240
Speaker 2: happened in life that you know you can't just orchestrate.

19
00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,640
Speaker 2: Was in the right place at the right time and

20
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,920
Speaker 2: was invited by the chiefs of Katriss back in twenty

21
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,360
Speaker 2: seventeen to join his team to be part of the

22
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,600
Speaker 2: review panel to look at a service that I knew

23
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,399
Speaker 2: was had deep problems and was very troubling that many

24
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,560
Speaker 2: people had tried to bring to the attention of the

25
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,759
Speaker 2: Department of Health and of the government over a period

26
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,640
Speaker 2: of time, but had struggled to do that. And then

27
00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,240
Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen, there was a woman called Bob Spriggs

28
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,759
Speaker 2: who told who finally managed after many months of really

29
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,120
Speaker 2: trying to be heard, told the story of what had

30
00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 2: happened to her husband, Bob, And it was when she

31
00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,080
Speaker 2: told her story that people started to listen and started

32
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,080
Speaker 2: to realize that the other side of this service that

33
00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,440
Speaker 2: was run by a community, by our state, by our government,

34
00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,280
Speaker 2: was not treating people the way that we would hope

35
00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:51,520
Speaker 2: that we would be treated.

36
00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,680
Speaker 1: What took so long for Barb to be heard? Was

37
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,840
Speaker 1: it just the Bura gramma? Did you go to the

38
00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:58,960
Speaker 1: wrong people at the start?

39
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:00,880
Speaker 2: What happened? Look? I think think that there's lots of

40
00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:06,880
Speaker 2: systemic resistance to looking at things that are complicated and

41
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,399
Speaker 2: complex and problems that we can't easily solve, and particularly

42
00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,000
Speaker 2: when it comes to looking at people who present us

43
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,399
Speaker 2: with all sorts of challenges and that maybe even give

44
00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,520
Speaker 2: us a bit of a frightening view of our own

45
00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,280
Speaker 2: future potentially. I think there's a lot of resistance within

46
00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,800
Speaker 2: our systems and even within our community to look at

47
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,399
Speaker 2: those people and to think about them as as potentially

48
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,360
Speaker 2: the same as us, and that drives this kind of

49
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:35,519
Speaker 2: resistance to listen.

50
00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, what does the book tell us that the

51
00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:39,720
Speaker 1: report didn't?

52
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:45,359
Speaker 2: Well, Look, it's a very accessible story, and sure it's

53
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,880
Speaker 2: a tough story in many ways. I talk about some

54
00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,000
Speaker 2: really difficult things and some very sad stories. It's certainly

55
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,359
Speaker 2: tinged with sadness, but it's also full of hope because

56
00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,720
Speaker 2: I suppose the report had a certain degree humanity to it.

57
00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,200
Speaker 2: But I really look at the humanity of what is

58
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 2: behind what happened at Oakin. So I always say, this

59
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,760
Speaker 2: is not a book about the Oakeen Report. This is

60
00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,240
Speaker 2: a book really about what did I learn from going

61
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 2: through that life experience and placing that in a broader

62
00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,560
Speaker 2: context of what does this tell us about ourselves? What

63
00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,200
Speaker 2: does this tell us about our community, about our humanity,

64
00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,200
Speaker 2: about compassionate, about how we should actually be in relationship

65
00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:25,880
Speaker 2: with other people?

66
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,239
Speaker 1: What did it tell us? I mean, humanity was clearly

67
00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 1: lacking in the way people were being treated in there.

68
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,280
Speaker 1: Have we come to a better place as a resultable?

69
00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,640
Speaker 2: Well, Look, I think this is the struggle of humanity.

70
00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 2: I don't think that this is a new thing. I

71
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,200
Speaker 2: think this has been going for millennia, and this is

72
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,520
Speaker 2: you know, the challenge that's now in front of us

73
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 2: as a community as to how do we how do

74
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 2: we find a place to be kinder to each other,

75
00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 2: to accept people that are different to ourselves, to meet

76
00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,160
Speaker 2: the needs of people who are vulnerable, who need extra

77
00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,320
Speaker 2: sort of extra levels of care. How do we how

78
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,880
Speaker 2: do we find the humanity and other people even when

79
00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,040
Speaker 2: we find them confronting or different to ourselves.

80
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a key question. Have we Well, why did

81
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,440
Speaker 1: it go so wrong? I mean, what was wrong with

82
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,280
Speaker 1: the culture? And how can it be that the people

83
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,080
Speaker 1: in charge of I mean, this is a government run institution,

84
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,840
Speaker 1: not a private We're not talking about nineteen twenties, you

85
00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 1: orphanages run by questionable community groups gone by, of years

86
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,200
Speaker 1: gone by that abused people in their care. This is

87
00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:38,119
Speaker 1: the two thousands and run by a government and yet

88
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,840
Speaker 1: no one seemed to know yeah or care?

89
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,640
Speaker 2: Well, did they not know? That's a good question. Who knew?

90
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,640
Speaker 2: What that's exactly. We've never really got to the bottom

91
00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,600
Speaker 2: of that. But look, enough people knew. But it was

92
00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,920
Speaker 2: a difficult problem, and there were challenges around budgets and

93
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,000
Speaker 2: all of those pressures that governments face, and I appreciate

94
00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,760
Speaker 2: all of that, but I think what really went wrong

95
00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,040
Speaker 2: was that this was a service that was historical and

96
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,280
Speaker 2: it was it had developed in a bit of a silo,

97
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 2: so it was out there by itself. People weren't really

98
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,200
Speaker 2: looking at it. And when you put a service that

99
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,880
Speaker 2: does a difficult job and you put it out by

100
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,200
Speaker 2: itself and you stop looking at it closely, stop engaging

101
00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 2: with it, you stop seeing both the people who work

102
00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,680
Speaker 2: there and people who receive treatment there as similar to ourselves,

103
00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:33,960
Speaker 2: as fellow humans. Then things go wrong. And that's how

104
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,320
Speaker 2: you get and people get distracted by budgets or whatever

105
00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,280
Speaker 2: it is, and they stop looking, and then things take

106
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,159
Speaker 2: on a life of their own. And that's what happened

107
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,720
Speaker 2: at Oakton. It developed a culture of its own. It

108
00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,680
Speaker 2: became dehumanized because the whole service was neglected. So not

109
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,760
Speaker 2: just the people that received kept care we can't really

110
00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,119
Speaker 2: call it care of treatment there, but even the people

111
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,320
Speaker 2: who worked there as well, were also neglected.

112
00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,880
Speaker 1: Can we be confident this isn't happening anywhere?

113
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,560
Speaker 2: Oh? Look there. The thing is about the Oaketin story

114
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:10,600
Speaker 2: is it's a particular illustration of quite severe failure of

115
00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,080
Speaker 2: the system. Right, but it is by no means unique,

116
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 2: And there are bits and pieces, and there are flavors

117
00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:22,240
Speaker 2: of Oakeden all over the place. And even now the

118
00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,839
Speaker 2: work that I do across Australia hearing stories of people

119
00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,159
Speaker 2: who have challenging symptoms and behaviors because of living with

120
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,000
Speaker 2: complex dementia, there are bits of this all over the

121
00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,599
Speaker 2: place that you know, So this story is as relevant

122
00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,440
Speaker 2: today as it was seven years ago when the Oaken

123
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,560
Speaker 2: report was released. And you know, we can't drop the

124
00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:47,000
Speaker 2: ball on this.

125
00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, well absolutely, that's the thing I mean moving forward now,

126
00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,560
Speaker 1: the book, I'm sure too, has lessons in, as you say,

127
00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,680
Speaker 1: humanity and making sure that we don't drop the ball

128
00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,400
Speaker 1: in that regard the measures that have been put in

129
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,720
Speaker 1: place since out of the report that was written. Have

130
00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,159
Speaker 1: have all the recommendations been picked up to ensure we

131
00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 1: were okay moving forward?

132
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,360
Speaker 2: Look? Look, no, so if you think, if you think

133
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:12,840
Speaker 2: about the process of what happened, so there was the

134
00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,960
Speaker 2: open Report was published and then there was a process

135
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,640
Speaker 2: here in South Australia to generate a plan as to

136
00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,120
Speaker 2: what should new services look like. Now there's been quite

137
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,120
Speaker 2: a number of really good measures that have been put

138
00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,440
Speaker 2: into place, and that is something to celebrate. Things are

139
00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,920
Speaker 2: not as they were. Oakin is gone and there are

140
00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 2: some good services and some good systems that have been

141
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,680
Speaker 2: put into place. There was a Royal Commission that was

142
00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,960
Speaker 2: triggered by the Oatin Report. Now we're only scratching the

143
00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,040
Speaker 2: surface of the recommendations of the Royal Commission. There is

144
00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,720
Speaker 2: a new Age Care Act coming. That's a good thing.

145
00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,560
Speaker 2: There's you know, there's been a pay rise for people

146
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,040
Speaker 2: that deliver care in age care. That's a good thing.

147
00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,880
Speaker 2: Is it enough? Well, it's a good thing for all Australians.

148
00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:57,560
Speaker 2: But could we do that?

149
00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 1: Politician?

150
00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's right. I'm just I'm thinking king, what

151
00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,920
Speaker 2: would they say? They'd say that? But is it enough? No,

152
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,360
Speaker 2: of course it's not. There's so much work to do. So,

153
00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,560
Speaker 2: like I said, can we drop the ball? Absolutely not?

154
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 1: No. Okay, it's a hard tale, isn't it really? I mean,

155
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,240
Speaker 1: it really is people suffering in that way, and dementia

156
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,680
Speaker 1: is part of that and the aggression that comes with that,

157
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,680
Speaker 1: which is why they were there, and then that aggression

158
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,520
Speaker 1: was being turned on them by people who should have

159
00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 1: been caring for them.

160
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,600
Speaker 2: Well, look, you know, that's why it's complex. And when

161
00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,920
Speaker 2: when people present with symptoms like when you often use

162
00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,960
Speaker 2: the words like aggression, and I think about that, often

163
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,320
Speaker 2: it's not aggression. It's actually it can be defensiveness as well,

164
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 2: because you know, those those challenging behaviors that people might

165
00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,720
Speaker 2: present with are actually often a way of them communicating

166
00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,280
Speaker 2: when they've lost other means of communication, to say things

167
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 2: like well, actually I'm hungry, or I'm tired, or I'm

168
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 2: really annoyed by the noise in this place, or actually

169
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,080
Speaker 2: I really need to go to the bathroom. And it's

170
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,080
Speaker 2: those unmet knees that drive so many of those those

171
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,760
Speaker 2: those types of behaviors, and so really, to turn this around,

172
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,720
Speaker 2: it starts with understanding the person and getting a sense

173
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,720
Speaker 2: of who they are, what's their story, and what is

174
00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,000
Speaker 2: the things that then underpin and contribute to what's happening

175
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,320
Speaker 2: for them now. And it's not so much that they're aggressive,

176
00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,600
Speaker 2: is that actually they're really trying to tell us something

177
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,280
Speaker 2: about what do they need?

178
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:26,599
Speaker 1: This isn't your first book? Is that?

179
00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:32,240
Speaker 2: The Box of so I the co creative a musical

180
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,480
Speaker 2: with my daughter. My daughter was a composer and back

181
00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,160
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, so during the pandemic we wrote

182
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,480
Speaker 2: a musical together. There was a breakout success at the

183
00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,160
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two Adelaide Fringe Fest and has then gone

184
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,480
Speaker 2: on to be performed in Sydney and in the United

185
00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 2: States as well. So it's called a Box of Memories

186
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,400
Speaker 2: and it's about a family living with dementia, and so

187
00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,240
Speaker 2: you know, it captures a lot of the same sort

188
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,160
Speaker 2: of themes that an Everyone's Story in my book talks

189
00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,400
Speaker 2: about around understanding people complex needs and vulnerability and living

190
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,320
Speaker 2: with dementia and how do we how do we see

191
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,440
Speaker 2: ourselves in those people? Yeah?

192
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,240
Speaker 1: Indeed, well this book and Everyone's Story and that captures

193
00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,760
Speaker 1: it all, doesn't it. That's the Humanity is out now

194
00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,240
Speaker 1: and you can buy it in all good bookstores, put

195
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,120
Speaker 1: out by South Australia's own Wakefield Press and every One Story.

196
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,360
Speaker 1: Duncan mckellum my guess the author and who co wrote

197
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:30,960
Speaker 1: the report into the Oakton Mental Health Services Center out

198
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,199
Speaker 1: there at Hampstead gardens and just an awful story in

199
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,679
Speaker 1: SA Health and South Australia's history, which we remember very

200
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,120
Speaker 1: clearly given it was only six or seven years ago.

201
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,720
Speaker 1: But to the subtitle finding our way back to compassion,

202
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,080
Speaker 1: hope and humanity and that gives us hope, I suppose Duncan.

203
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,360
Speaker 1: Great meeting you, Thank you, Thanks Matthew Duncan mckella