1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm suan Alma. 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: Recycling in Australia suffered a major setback in twenty twenty 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: two with the collapse of Red Cycle, the country's largest 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: soft plastic recycling program run through supermarkets. And while we're 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 1: still recycling, the total quantity of waste we're generating is 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: also increasing as our population grows. So how then, do 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 1: we reach the holy grail of a circular economy where 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: goods are reused, recycled, and repurposed to minimize or even 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: eliminate waste entirely. One of the world leaders in this 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: space is terror Cycle. Tom Zaki founded TerraCycle in the 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: US more than two decades ago, and since then he's 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: worked with more than six hundred and fifty major brands 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: across twenty one countries to deliver solutions on recycling and 14 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: reusing materials. He's visiting Australia at the moment, so we 15 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: thought we'd grab him for a chat. Tom Zaki, Welcome 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: to Fear and Greed. Thanks for having me take me 17 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: through what TerraCycle does. 18 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely so. The idea of TerraCycle is how do we 19 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,839 Speaker 2: help make things become more circular by first recycling things 20 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 2: that today do not have recycling solutions on them, not 21 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: just like the soft plastics that you mentioned, but anything 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 2: from razor blades to toothbrushes, from wetsuits to bicycle helmet 23 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,279 Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. Then we help people 24 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: make their objects from recycled content, effectively creating a circular 25 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: economy of recycling, and then finally work on how to 26 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: elevate to reusable systems where there is no need for recycling. 27 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: Okay, so what's your motivation here? I mean, you've been 28 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: doing this, probably for longer than most of us. Have 29 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: you even heard about recycling? What is it about it's 30 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: driving you on this? 31 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: Well, to me, I am both very fascinated by the 32 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: anomalies of the idea of waste. Waste is filled with 33 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: so many strange things. For example, it's the only material 34 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: that we pay to get rid of, yet everything we 35 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: possess will one day be owned by a garbage company. 36 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: And for how big of a concept that is. Garbage 37 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: companies are also the least innovating of companies per dollar 38 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 2: of revenue they enjoy. And these are just a few 39 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: anomalies amongst many but then also solving it is incredibly 40 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 2: purposeful because we are polluting our planet, filling our oceans 41 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: or rivers and so on with all the waste that 42 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: we produce. 43 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: How close I mean, let's start with Australia. How well 44 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: is Australia doing in the shift towards the circular economy? 45 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: Are we? How far down the track away? If it's 46 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: one hundred meter of rice with the ten medi of 47 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: mac or the fifteen me mark, that's. 48 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: A good question. So I think there's two ways to 49 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: answer that question. Is one is how are we doing 50 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: an Australia relative to everyone else? And then where are we? 51 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely so, I'd say relatively speaking, Australia is doing pretty good. 52 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: As a developed country. We had a TerraCycle have been 53 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: operating here in Australia for ten years and I would say, 54 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: you know, give give ourselves a good solid middle grade. 55 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 2: With that said, if we think about how far to 56 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 2: your question we are to the finish line on a 57 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: circular economy, we are as a world, very far away 58 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: and unfortunately getting further away by the minute. You know, 59 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: as we think about you mentioned, you know, pop relation 60 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: growth leads to more waste, but we're also producing more 61 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: waste per capita every year than the year before, and 62 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 2: the waste we're producing tends to be less recyclable tomorrow 63 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: than it is today and let alone yesterday. 64 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: So what I'm trying to look at what the biggest 65 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: barrier to doing a bit of jobies? What is the 66 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: biggest barrier? 67 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: I think the best way to think about that question 68 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 2: is what really makes something recyclable, which is the base 69 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: circular model. And many times we think that recycling has 70 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 2: to do with whether something can be recycled, and then 71 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: the answer would be its technology or infrastructure, that's all something. 72 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: And the reality is recycling is urban mining. Recyclers are 73 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: their mining garbage for value and they will collect and 74 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: recycle what they like and they will dispose what they don't. 75 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: And if you then compare that to the biggest mega 76 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: trend of product and package design, which is cost reduction, 77 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: that's how we see things becoming progressively less circular because 78 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: we're making everything cheaper tomorrow than today, and we make 79 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: something cheaper, there's less intrinsic value in it, which means 80 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: that companies that are in the recycling business are going 81 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: to get less interested in that sort of thing. A 82 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: very good example of this, just to give a concrete 83 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: case study, is if you look at beverage containers. The 84 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: first beverage container that came onto the scene after we 85 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: left reusable bottles in the nineteen fifties was aluminum cans, 86 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: and then we came out with pet bottles and then 87 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: cartons and then pouches, and that progression is actually a 88 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 2: progression of making the package progressively cheaper, cheaper and cheaper. 89 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 2: And then if you look at the actual interest in 90 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 2: recycling those things, aluminum cans are very high. Recyclers love it, 91 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 2: there's a lot of value. But as you go from 92 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: aluminum cans to pet bottles to cartons to pouches, it 93 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: crashes down to zero. For one key reason is that 94 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: there's less money to be made recycling those things. 95 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: Stay with me, Tom, We will be back in a minute. 96 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: I'm speaking to Tom Zaki from Terra Cycle. So it's 97 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: very much in an incentive based more at the moment, do 98 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: we have to shift that to more of an altruistic 99 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: view or what you're saying makes a lot of things 100 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: And I kind of get that we're actually losing ground 101 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: and particularly the population guys, But how do we shift that? 102 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I think there are a number of factors, 103 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 2: and I think every actor in the system has its role. Right. 104 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: So if we first go to us as individuals, we 105 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: have sort of two votes we get to cast. I 106 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: think we have one is the political vote, which we 107 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 2: get to cast once in a while, and there we 108 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 2: can use that to pressure lawmakers to pass more regulation 109 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 2: that allow for profit companies to bring in that are 110 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 2: altruistic thinking, A more plain way to say it is 111 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: start paying for their externalities. You're going to see that 112 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: coming to Australia with extended product responsibility regulation that is 113 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: rolling out depositive return schemes, all these different things that 114 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: allow for the regulatory framework to help the other. Though, 115 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: as individuals is we have the vote with what we 116 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: buy and what we don't buy, and it's really important 117 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 2: for us to patronize those products that are more circular 118 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: and not to patronize the ones that are less. So 119 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: that's from the consumer point of view. From a manufacturing 120 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: point of view, here is the big tension for manufacturers. 121 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 2: The biggest thing that usually drives product is product price, 122 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 2: and so there's this great goal to reduce price because 123 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: that'll drive more volume of product sales, and as we 124 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 2: reduce price, we're making things intrinsically less circular. So the 125 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: question there is how do we create product design where 126 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: we are not selling disposable fashion or disposable packaging, but 127 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 2: things that can have quality, longevity, or if it's in 128 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: the world of packaging, can be reused or profitably recycled. 129 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: And if we're in a conundrum where our business model 130 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: doesn't allow us to do that, maybe we're a stakeholder 131 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 2: at a company where it's just not going to happen, 132 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: then we can think about voluntarily funding solutions. That's what 133 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: pterorcycle does quite a bit in Australia, where companies like 134 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: a Sephora or a Mecca or a David Jones or 135 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: many others in that example are funding cosmetic recitle because 136 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: they can't really change you know what that cosmetic products 137 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: are made from easily in Australia, but they can at 138 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: least fund and finance a solution so that people can 139 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: recycle those West teams. And today you can walk in 140 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: one of those stores and drop it in a TerraCycle 141 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: bandon officers and gets recycled because the funding is there. 142 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: Okay, So I mean I was looking ahead of this 143 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: interviewers looking at the Australian Packaging Covenant Organization's twenty thirty strategy, 144 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: and it talks about end of life packing processing costs 145 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: charge to the brands like to manufacturers in the next 146 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: couple of years. Does that fit into what you're talking about, 147 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: because that certainly provides them with a financial incentive to 148 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: have a reusable packaging rather than something they have to 149 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: get rid of. 150 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: You are precisely right, so that type of regulation should 151 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 2: be a very positive stimuli to the circular economy. The 152 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: real question that double in the details is usually an 153 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: EPR or extended product responsibly regulation, which is this form 154 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 2: of regulation. Generally, what happens is it moves the cost 155 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: from being paid by municipalities, which means it shows up 156 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: in our property tax or are rent depending on if 157 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: we're renting or owning, to product prices because it's paid 158 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 2: by the producers. So it's sort of think of it 159 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: like shifting from income tax to sales tax. The real 160 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: question is not which hand is paying. Is there net 161 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: more money in the system. If there is more, things 162 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: will get recycled, and if there's less money in the system, 163 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: then less things will be recycled, and that's really the 164 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 2: key thing to watch out for as this type of 165 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 2: regulation comes in, because it can be very exciting if 166 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 2: it's done very well. From that point of view. 167 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: Tom Zaki, founder and say Terra Cycle, I want to 168 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: get onto some of the innovation that you guys have 169 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: introduced in recent years. Cigarette butts one of my most 170 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: hated things in the world. Yet you've done work around 171 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: trying to reduce the waste of cigarette butts. Is that right? 172 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely, we are close to having collected and recycled our 173 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: billionth butt all over the world. And look, this is 174 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: you know you asked earlier, what can we do? Cigarette 175 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: butts are a wonderful sort of product to ask this 176 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: question on because the best thing to do is stop smoking, 177 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: and if you stop smoking, there will be no cigarette 178 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: butts whatsoever, and you'll be healthier at the very same breath. 179 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: With that said, it's still a large portion of the 180 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 2: of the population smokes, and cigarette butts make up the 181 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 2: largest portion of roadway litter, and they're horrendous, you know, 182 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: from a toxin in the environment point of view. So 183 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: in that example, we get funding and in this case 184 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 2: from the producers of cigarettes, but also from places where 185 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: you may see high consumption is smoking thin cruise ships, 186 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 2: casinos all the way to individuals, and they fund what 187 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: it costs to really collect and recycle a cigarette. But 188 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: because we have to not just get it and then 189 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 2: we have to shred them, clean them, separate the ash, 190 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 2: tobacco paper composted, and take the filter which is made 191 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: from a plastic and then make that into new plastic products. 192 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: How do you get them? 193 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: So collection with wastetreams is interesting. It's all about where 194 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 2: is there high consumption of certain waste streams, right, and 195 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: so every single w waste stream is different. If you 196 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: took something as simple as tennis balls, well you'll go 197 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: to tennis courts. That's a very very simplified example. If 198 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 2: it's pens, it would be schools and businesses. It's cigarettes, 199 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 2: it's going to be in city environments where there's a 200 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: lot of nightlife, so not as much residential, but like 201 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: urban cores where you see bars and restaurants, because many 202 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 2: folks will go outside to smoke. But also then casinos, 203 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 2: cruise ships, those tend to be really high propensity of smoking. 204 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 2: So we target these locations where there's high consumption, and 205 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 2: this will shift waste stream by waste streams, so we're 206 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: you know, if it's contact lenses, we work with optometrists 207 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 2: to set up major collection points to recycle them and 208 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: so on. 209 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: Will we get there, Tom, will we get to a 210 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: circular economy or at least a point where it's good enough. 211 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 2: So it's a great question because I want to if 212 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: I may probe at the question. Circular economy is not 213 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 2: a perfect sustainable system. All circular economy really means is 214 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 2: that the material is being honored and continues to go around, 215 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 2: which eliminates the need of extracting more materials. Now, this 216 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: is really important because extraction, mining, farming for new products 217 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 2: is the biggest impact on our planet on any challenge 218 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: that the planet has. If it's a deforestation you care 219 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: about our species extinction, or climate change or garbage, all 220 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 2: of these things, the biggest genesis of that is extraction. 221 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: And that's the real virtue of the circular economy is 222 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 2: it reduces the need for extraction because we honor the 223 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: materials and they go around. However, even in something like reuse, 224 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: you have to collect the package, clean it, and refill it, 225 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: which does take energy and resource and so the true 226 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 2: perfect economy, I would argue, is where our net consumption 227 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: is in balance with nature, and they're the real meditation 228 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 2: I think we need to have as human beings, especially 229 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: if our population is going to continue to grow, is 230 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 2: how do we really bring that in balance and move 231 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: away from this hyperconsumerism that really came onto the scene 232 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 2: in the nineteen fifties. That done circularly, I would argue, 233 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 2: would be the perfect economy, and we have a long 234 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: way to go, but at least I have hope that 235 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: the tools and the systems are there and they have 236 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 2: been proven. We just have to implement them and scale 237 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 2: them and fund them. Tom, thank you very much for 238 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: talking to Fear and grad Thanks for having me. That 239 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: is Tom Zaki, founder and CEO of Terror Cycle. This 240 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 2: is the Fear and Great Business Interview. Join us every 241 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: morning for the full episode of Fear and Great Business 242 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 2: Jews for people who make their own decisions. 243 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: I'm Schanaeoma. Enjoy your day.