WEBVTT - Inside Ghislaine Maxwell's sex trafficking trial

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>When Glaine Maxwell was sentenced to twenty years jail for

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<v Speaker 1>sex trafficking crimes. Journalist and writer Lucier Osborne Crowley was

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<v Speaker 1>there in the courtroom. She watched on as Glaine Maxwell,

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<v Speaker 1>a British socialite and close associate of Jeffrey Epstein, waited

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<v Speaker 1>to hear her fate, and she listened as her victims

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<v Speaker 1>testified to the harm inflicted by Maxwell's predatory actions. But

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<v Speaker 1>the more Lucier learned, the more she came to understand

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<v Speaker 1>the trial as a sham, with many other unnamed, powerful

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<v Speaker 1>accused perpetrators associated with Epstein and Maxwell still protected to

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<v Speaker 1>this day today. Luccia Osborne Crowley, author of The Lasting Harm,

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<v Speaker 1>on the survivors of the crimes of Glene Maxwell and

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<v Speaker 1>those who got away with it. It's Wednesday, July thirty one, Lydia.

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<v Speaker 1>When people think of Glenn Maxwell, it's often Jeffrey Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>who comes to mind, and the flight logs and all

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<v Speaker 1>of the power and the money that surrounded them. We

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<v Speaker 1>actually don't often hear about the victims, the girls who

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<v Speaker 1>Maxwell trafficked. Could you start by telling me what it

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<v Speaker 1>is that drew you into their story.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely. Well I was really struck when I was

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<v Speaker 2>at a trial because I was in a press gallery

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<v Speaker 2>with people who were filing stories every day. So I'd

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<v Speaker 2>get back to my hotel room every night and I'd

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<v Speaker 2>read the coverage of the day, and there was just

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<v Speaker 2>so little coverage of what the victims had actually said.

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<v Speaker 2>We just end up being really focused on perpetrators and

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<v Speaker 2>trying to figure out who they are and why they

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<v Speaker 2>are the way they are, and whether we mean to

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<v Speaker 2>or not, you are, by necessity taking that oxygen away

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<v Speaker 2>from victims. So I really wanted to write something to

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<v Speaker 2>counterbalance that.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, tell me then, what it is that the

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<v Speaker 1>victims actually said in that quorum.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So they all told such a similar story about

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<v Speaker 2>grooming and about course of control and about how they

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<v Speaker 2>were kind of hands selected by Gilaine based on their vulnerability.

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<v Speaker 2>So a woman called Carolyne, she testified under only her

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<v Speaker 2>first name to protect her identity, and her testimony was

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<v Speaker 2>unbelievably powerful and she was completely raw with the jury.

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<v Speaker 2>So she is a kind of paradigmatic example of what

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<v Speaker 2>Gilaine and Jeffrey would do. They would find people like Carolyn. So,

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<v Speaker 2>Carolyn grew up in a trailer park with a single

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<v Speaker 2>mother who was a drug addict. She was in middle

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<v Speaker 2>school when they recruited her. She was not being looked

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<v Speaker 2>after at home, and also they didn't have much money

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<v Speaker 2>coming in, and she had been abused by another adult

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<v Speaker 2>male starting from the time that she was four years old.

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<v Speaker 2>Gillane and Jeffrey would often talk to the girls and

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<v Speaker 2>find out if this kind of thing had happened before,

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<v Speaker 2>because they know it's much easier to victimize someone once

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<v Speaker 2>they're already in that cycle. So all of these kind

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<v Speaker 2>of biographical facts about Carolyn's life show you exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>Gulaine did. She found people who were not having their

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<v Speaker 2>needs met at home, and that was often emotional and

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<v Speaker 2>psychological and financial, and then they would come in and

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<v Speaker 2>offered to meet those needs, so firstly by kind of

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<v Speaker 2>befriending them and gaining their trust, but also of course

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<v Speaker 2>by helping them financially. And that's the thing that is

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<v Speaker 2>so awful and so confusing about sexual abuse in childhood

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<v Speaker 2>and grooming in particular, because it leads us to feel

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<v Speaker 2>incredibly confused because we finally trust an adult authority figure

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<v Speaker 2>who swoops in and promises to save us, and then

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<v Speaker 2>they end up hurting us as well. That damage does

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<v Speaker 2>not stop in childhood, and it continues all the way

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<v Speaker 2>through adulthood and all the way through in Carolyn's case,

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<v Speaker 2>all the way through a person's life.

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<v Speaker 1>And so, sitting there in that courtroom over the four

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<v Speaker 1>weeks of the trial, what did you learn about Glene

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<v Speaker 1>Maxwell and her motivations?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, as I said, I decided really early that I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted the book to focus on the victims. But what

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<v Speaker 2>I will say is that just from being there, we

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<v Speaker 2>did learn a lot about her, in part just from

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<v Speaker 2>observing her. I mean, she was incredibly relaxed. She really

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<v Speaker 2>did not appear on a single day of the five

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<v Speaker 2>and a half weeks like she was at a serious

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<v Speaker 2>sex trafficking trial. It felt a bit like she didn't

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<v Speaker 2>really think she should be there. She was just very

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<v Speaker 2>blusse about the entire thing, and that was really jarring

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<v Speaker 2>to me. And she was quite strange in the way

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<v Speaker 2>she interacted with us, Like she drew me at one

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<v Speaker 2>point on her legal pad and then kind of was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of locking eyes with me and trying really hard

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<v Speaker 2>to engage. I mean, she was she wasn't allowed to

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<v Speaker 2>speak to me, but she was trying really hard to

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<v Speaker 2>engage with me in any other way that she could,

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<v Speaker 2>in this kind of charming way. And again, she was

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<v Speaker 2>doing this at times while witnesses were testifying. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>she wasn't even really paying attention sometimes to her own trial.

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<v Speaker 2>So that kind of told me a lot about her

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<v Speaker 2>lack of remorse and the fact that she really didn't

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<v Speaker 2>feel like she had to be there. And then the

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<v Speaker 2>other thing that we learned is what she didn't say

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<v Speaker 2>in her defense. So it was open to the defense

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<v Speaker 2>to make an argument that she was kind of pulled

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<v Speaker 2>into this by Jeffrey Epstein and all so that she

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<v Speaker 2>had a history of having an abusive father and that

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<v Speaker 2>made her vulnerable to being drawn into this. She chose

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<v Speaker 2>not to make that argument. She chose instead to just

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<v Speaker 2>attack the credibility of the victims. That was her only defense.

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<v Speaker 2>Her defense was is women are lying and now they

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<v Speaker 2>think they're going to get money from Jeffrey Epstein's estate,

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<v Speaker 2>so they've made up a story about me being involved

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<v Speaker 2>when I wasn't involved. Thirdly, we also learned about her

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<v Speaker 2>character at sentencing because a defendant is allowed to speak

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<v Speaker 2>at sentencing. It doesn't often happen. I didn't expect it

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<v Speaker 2>to happen. And then all of a sudden, she just

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<v Speaker 2>got up in her shackles and she started walking towards

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<v Speaker 2>the podium and we were really surprised. She spoke for

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<v Speaker 2>five or ten minutes, and she completely failed to apologize.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So what did she say?

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<v Speaker 2>She said, I'm sorry for what Jeffrey did to you.

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<v Speaker 2>It felt really unbelievable. I mean, she'd just been convicted

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<v Speaker 2>of several counts of federal sex trafficking of underage girls

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<v Speaker 2>and she still wasn't able to acknowledge that she played

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<v Speaker 2>a role in it. Often when defendants speak, it counts

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<v Speaker 2>in their favor because often it means they're willing to

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<v Speaker 2>get up and say that they're sorry. And Judge Nathan said,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm actually taking into account the fact that you decided

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<v Speaker 2>to stand up here today and you still failed to

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<v Speaker 2>express any remorse at all. So it ended up counting

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<v Speaker 2>as an aggravating factor rather than a mitigating factor.

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<v Speaker 1>And after the trial, you spent a lot of time

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<v Speaker 1>with the women who gave evidence, and I wonder, after

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<v Speaker 1>all of the time in the courtroom and with those

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<v Speaker 1>victims afterwards. If you think that ultimately justice was served

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<v Speaker 1>in this.

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<v Speaker 2>Case, great question. No is the short answer.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break the people using money and power to

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<v Speaker 1>evade justice. Lucier in your book about the trial of

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<v Speaker 1>Glene Maxwell, you say that every single piece of your

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<v Speaker 1>reporting over the last twelve months led you to believe

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<v Speaker 1>that the Maxwell trial was a show trial. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>tell me what you mean by that.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's very important that there has been at

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<v Speaker 2>least one conviction in this case. You know, it would

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<v Speaker 2>have been a much worse outcome if Geline wasn't convicted,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly given that the evidence was so strong, and that

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<v Speaker 2>that would have been a serious miscarriage of justice. But

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<v Speaker 2>that's not to say that this is what justice actually

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<v Speaker 2>looks like for this case. Because what I learned in

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<v Speaker 2>my investigative reporting for the kind of three years after

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<v Speaker 2>the trial and getting to know the victims so well,

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<v Speaker 2>is that there are so many people who are implicated

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<v Speaker 2>in this either who knew about it, or who enabled it,

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<v Speaker 2>or who actually participated in abusing these girls who have

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<v Speaker 2>never been charged, who've never been indicted. Some of them

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<v Speaker 2>are names that I can't say on air, but you'll

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<v Speaker 2>know because they've been associated with Jeffrey and the media,

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<v Speaker 2>but some of them are names that have never been

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<v Speaker 2>associated with Jeffrey, who've never even had their lives tarnished

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<v Speaker 2>by association with him, and they did do this. So

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this story is so far from over. This

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<v Speaker 2>went on for three decades. This was a sex trafficking ring.

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<v Speaker 2>At the moment, there's one person in prison who enabled

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<v Speaker 2>the trafficking, But at the moment, under the justice system,

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<v Speaker 2>there is no one that these girls were technically trafficked too.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you come to any conclusions about why they haven't

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<v Speaker 1>been cases made against any of these other people who

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<v Speaker 1>you're thinking of.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I asked the FBI about this, because there

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<v Speaker 2>are lots of allegations against the FBI in the book

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<v Speaker 2>about failing to present evidence at the trial that they

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<v Speaker 2>had access to, and they didn't deny any of the allegations,

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<v Speaker 2>they just declined to comment on them. So I got

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<v Speaker 2>nothing from them by way of explanation. It seems to

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<v Speaker 2>me that there is enough evidence out there to indict

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<v Speaker 2>several people, So I don't think that's the problem. I

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<v Speaker 2>think the problem is political will to do so. There

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<v Speaker 2>are so many coked spiritors out there who really really

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<v Speaker 2>want to live out the rest of their lives without

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<v Speaker 2>this being found out. So they have a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>money and they have a lot to lose, so they

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<v Speaker 2>can do things like send a private investigator to follow

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<v Speaker 2>me around for days and days and days, which is

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<v Speaker 2>what happened when I went out to see Carolyn. I

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<v Speaker 2>was tailed, I was followed, I was threatened. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the thing that Gilen used to always tell these women

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<v Speaker 2>when they were teenagers was if you ever speak about

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<v Speaker 2>if you ever come forward, we will find you. We

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<v Speaker 2>will be watching you, and we will find you. And

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<v Speaker 2>she has followed through on that promise.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. One small counterpoint to what you're saying, I suppose

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<v Speaker 1>is what you wrote in the book about how Maxwell

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<v Speaker 1>didn't expect those teenagers who she trafficked to grow into

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<v Speaker 1>the women who would then be capable of testifying against

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<v Speaker 1>her in the way that they did. So that offers

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<v Speaker 1>some hope, surely. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. And this is one of my favorite moments of

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<v Speaker 2>the trial. It was so so powerful, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>in the reply closing submissions, and one of the prosecutors

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<v Speaker 2>just said that I'm paraphrasing here, but you know, Gilene

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<v Speaker 2>Maxwell thought these girls were beneath her, thought they were nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>But what she didn't count on is that they would

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<v Speaker 2>grow up, and that they would grow up into these

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<v Speaker 2>brave survivors who were willing to come here and sit

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<v Speaker 2>in front of you, the jury, and talk about the

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<v Speaker 2>worst things that have ever happened to them, And that

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<v Speaker 2>really captulated I think so much of what we're seeing

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<v Speaker 2>in the world at the moment is that these perpetrators

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<v Speaker 2>who pray on children, these cowardly perpetrators who pray on

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<v Speaker 2>people who are so much more vulnerable than them, what

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<v Speaker 2>they never ever realize is that we do actually grow

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<v Speaker 2>up and we do have the power to come forward

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<v Speaker 2>and speak up about what they did to us. And

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<v Speaker 2>in Australia we have so many brave people doing that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, thinking about Grace to Aim and Harry James

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<v Speaker 2>and Britney Higgins, and you know, we have so many

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<v Speaker 2>people proving that exact point, which is that those perpetrators

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<v Speaker 2>were wrong when they underestimated us.

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<v Speaker 1>Lucier, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>No, thank you so much, thank you for your wonderful questions.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Australia's third largest airline, Rex

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<v Speaker 1>has stopped selling seats and appointed administrators. According to media reports,

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<v Speaker 1>the airline cited escalating costs as partially responsible for recent losses,

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<v Speaker 1>with the airline posting a three point two million dollar

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<v Speaker 1>loss in the first half of the twenty twenty three

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<v Speaker 1>financial year. On Monday, the Australian Stock Exchange suspended Rex's

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<v Speaker 1>shares following the news that Deloitte had been brought in

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<v Speaker 1>to advise on the airline's financial situation. Rex is a

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<v Speaker 1>vital airline carrier for Australia's regions and the federal government

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<v Speaker 1>says it's keeping a close eye on the situation and

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<v Speaker 1>forced marriages, forced labor and sexual exploitation are on the

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<v Speaker 1>rise in Australia. The AFP has reported a twelve percent

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<v Speaker 1>increase in reports of human trafficking and modern slavery over

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<v Speaker 1>the last twelve months, with three hundred and ninety reported

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<v Speaker 1>cases compared to three hundred and forty the previous year.

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<v Speaker 1>While human trafficking of both adults and children was the

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<v Speaker 1>most common crime reported, the data released by the AFP

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<v Speaker 1>included four reports of slavery and one report of organ trafficking.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening,