1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: This episode of Headgame was recorded on gadigal Land. 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: It's July nineteen ninety seven. Roonda Harpy Smith steps into 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 2: Mongaroa prison on New Zealand's North Island for the very 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 2: first time. Opening in nineteen eighty nine, is become the 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 2: country's most notorious prison, a facility designed to house up 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 2: to six hundred of New Zealand's most dangerous criminals. But 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: Roonda isn't a prisoner. It's her first day as a 8 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: prison guard. Following in the footsteps of her father and brothers, 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 2: She's joined the New Zealand Department of Corrections. She'd spend 10 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 2: twenty years walking the line between caring for prisoners and 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: keeping them in line, a journey that would eventually take 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 2: its toll. I'm at Middleton and this is Headgame today. 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,639 Speaker 2: Roonda Harpy Smith takes us inside the wire as a 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 2: former female prison officer. Roonda, welcome to Headgame Now. When 15 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: it comes to psychological resilience, when it comes to getting 16 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 2: your head in the game, coh your career as a 17 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 2: prison officer in one of the most notorious prisons in 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: New Zealand, dealing with the most dangerous criminals in your 19 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: country is certainly something that requires psychological resilience. It requires, 20 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: you know, for you to get your head in the game. 21 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: But what was it like for you, Roonda, growing up 22 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: as a child, and you know, were you a nice, 23 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: happy family with your mother and your father? How did 24 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 2: that look growing up? Because I know back in the day, 25 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: you know, things were tight, things were tough, and how 26 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 2: did you how did you cope and how did you 27 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: get by as a youngster? 28 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: Well? Is, I grew up in a big family and 29 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: I was one of the younger members of the family, 30 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: so it was it was always a struggle. Many miles 31 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: to feed and a lot of people to care for, 32 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: so it was always making ends meet. I was very lucky. 33 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: I was loved. I had very good parents who my mom, 34 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: she only ever got drunk once and decided she didn't 35 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: like it, and so her only vice in life was 36 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: to have a couple of cigarettes. But other than that, 37 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: she was our mum and she loved and protected us, 38 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: and so we had her. We had my dad who 39 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: kept us on the straight. He loved us, so we 40 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: were surrounded by that. But at the same time, you know, 41 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: we Dad would go out and harvest from being malory 42 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: We always learned to eat from the land, from the sea, 43 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: and all of that sort of stuff, so we never 44 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: went hungry. 45 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: When did you start to realize, because I know that 46 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 2: your father was a World War Two veteran and he 47 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: went into the prison service as a prison officer. When 48 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 2: did you start to realize that your dad, you know, 49 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 2: was a prison officer And when did that sort of 50 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: a career spiking interest, shall we say, or the lack 51 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: of interest for you? 52 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: I have to say from a very young age, I 53 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: was absolutely proud of him, you know, and just the 54 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: fact of what he went to do and the man 55 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: that he came back as. So I was always inspired 56 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: by him. He was way before his time. But I 57 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: think my interest in joining those sort of things didn't 58 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: come until I was about thirty. Oh really, yeah, it 59 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: was late in life because I never wanted to go 60 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: into the prison. I never wanted to do anything like that. 61 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: When I was sixteen, my dad took me to he 62 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: wanted me to join the army. He had an appointment 63 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: for me. I went up there and I could have 64 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: gone and then, but I didn't, and I went and 65 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: lived life before I joined the prison. I wanted to 66 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: enjoy the freedom that I had in it because I 67 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: knew that once I joined the prison or you know, 68 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: you know yourself, when you go into the forces or 69 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: something like that, you commit and it's not half in, 70 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: you're all. And so I knew that once I decided 71 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: to go in, it was going to be full force 72 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: and I would lose everything that I had enjoyed previously. 73 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: You know, I was a little bit of a rebel. 74 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: I've delved in all types of lives. You know, I'm 75 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: no angel, but I did. It's because I knew once 76 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: I went to and I wasn't going to be able 77 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: to do it. So, yeah, it was probably about when 78 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: I was in my thirties. 79 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: When you said, when you know you go in and 80 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 2: you commit, You're exactly right, You're fully committed and you 81 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: almost leave that life behind. How much did the Maui 82 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: sort of culture influence yourself growing up and did it 83 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: feel like that when you know you were going to 84 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: enter into the prison service, did you feel that you 85 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: were going to have to leave that culture behind as 86 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: well or could you take an element of that into 87 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: your life? So how much of a Maui influence of 88 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 2: the cult of your culture influenced you growing up hugely. 89 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: Hugely so, but more so as I got older, you know, 90 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: as when I was younger, I didn't really know much 91 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: about culture or I just thought all people were the same. 92 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: But going into the prison, because it's predominantly Maudi in 93 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: Pacific Islander, in this country, it was a necessary part 94 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: of being able to do a good job was being 95 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: malory in having an understanding of the culture, because it's 96 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: a spiritual kind of thing that it's something that you've 97 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: got to be able to understand without putting your finger 98 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: on it. You know, you can see somebody's in need, 99 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: and you know what they need, but nothink we can 100 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: provide them, we'll be able to do it, So you've 101 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: got to bring in that. 102 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I suppose that's spiritual awareness. I get what 103 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 2: you mean because when you when you grow up and 104 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: that's who you are, that's your people, that's your environment. 105 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: Without even realizing, I suppose it's naturally in your DNA, right, 106 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 2: it's naturally let's call it in your soul. So I 107 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 2: completely understand what you mean by you know, just perhaps 108 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 2: looking at someone knowing why they're acting in a certain way. 109 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: There's this huge cultural relevance. 110 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: There isn't there definitely, And we're lucky in the New 111 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: Zealand prisons and that you know, it's it's relevant and 112 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: it's it's considered. So you have padres that side of thing, 113 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: and you know with Maldi's we have because they're spiritual. 114 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: We're superstitious as well, and when you know something, you 115 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: know it and you can't forget it. So we had 116 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: a lot of instances with psychosis and all of that 117 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: sort of stuff that we would bring the padre in 118 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: a lot of the time to deal with alongside the 119 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: medical because it wasn't a medical thing, it was something inherent. 120 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 2: Take me through. You said you were a bit of 121 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: a rebel growing up, so that there could have been 122 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: a flip side right, you could have ended up either 123 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: in prison or in prison, which you ended up. But 124 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 2: on the you know, with the keys in your hands. 125 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: Shall we say, how did that look for you growing 126 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 2: up before you jumped into the prison service? And I 127 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: suppose it was a really important question did you jump 128 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: into the prison service because you were potentially going to 129 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: go down that road When I. 130 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: Grew up, I grew up with a lot of up 131 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: and coming Mangramore and Black Power president type of thing. 132 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: The guys I went to school with they ended up 133 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: being presidents of gangs and whatnot. And where we lived, 134 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: we lived in the middle of all of the gangs. 135 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: So I was lucky enough to be able to slip 136 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: through all of those worlds. I had a lot of 137 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: friends that were gang you know, and to me at 138 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: the time, it was they were my friends. I've known 139 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: them all the time. That they were in a gang 140 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: was just something that they were. I never dabbled too 141 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: much into that side of it, but I knew if 142 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: I went there the people that I knew, and I'd 143 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: have a really good time, you know and whatnot, and 144 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: I could get to like it, not just that, you know, 145 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: it was a lot of them. We're going in and 146 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: out of prison. And I don't think my dad would 147 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: have wanted to hear that I was at the pad 148 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: or something like that. But yeah, I did associate along 149 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: the sidelines of all types of people. And when I 150 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: moved to Australia and lived over there, the Bikis were 151 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: my preferred group of people to associate with because they 152 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: were they were cool. I liked these sort of groups 153 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: because they were actually very straight up. They their whole 154 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: structure and everything was. I admire the structure. I admired 155 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: the respect and all of that it was, and that's 156 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: probably why I went to the prison, because I was 157 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: looking for that structure, that level of respecting people and 158 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: finding people to look up to and that sort of thing. 159 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: So it was, yeah, I admired a lot of stuff 160 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: that I saw pre prison. Once I went into the prison, 161 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: I couldn't really associate with those people anymore. 162 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 2: When did you decide, right, I'm going to follow in 163 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 2: my father's footsteps and some of your siblings and join 164 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 2: the prison service. 165 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: I was happy to just work in my early twenties 166 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: and whatnot and make a living. But then I started 167 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: to think about the future and it was like, I 168 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: need a decent I need a decent job. The only 169 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: way to get there is to get a career path. 170 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: And then I thought, I know everyone's in the prison. 171 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: I might have good there to go, you know. So 172 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: that's where it came from. It was like day win 173 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: and they must they're all right at it. I might 174 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: be all right edit too. So it wasn't my first choice, 175 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: but it was it was a voice. Yeah, it was 176 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: a choice, and I felt that I'd be able to 177 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: do it fairly well, you know, if I gave it 178 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: a good. 179 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 2: Go, and was there a concern on the about you know, 180 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 2: the connection between your upbringing and then obviously, you know, 181 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: going into a prison on the other side with the 182 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: keys in your hands and potentially knowing a lot of 183 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: people and having to you know, be this professional, be 184 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: this disciplinarian, but also you know, be this role model. 185 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 2: How hard was it to go into work every single 186 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: day knowing that you've got to wear these multiple masks 187 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 2: and you've got to be these multiple sort of personalities 188 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: in order to get the best, because that's what you 189 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 2: want to do to get the best out of these prisoners. 190 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: Very conflicting, but you know, once I went in, I 191 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: decided I'd committed and I knew absolutely what side that 192 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: I was on, and so I was never in any 193 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: doubt who I was, or where I was or what 194 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: I was supposed to be doing. And then I was 195 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: able to develop my own personality with it. And from 196 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: the beginning it was because prisoners sit and watch you 197 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: twenty four seven. You know that we watched them, but 198 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: they watch us and more. Yeah, and so they can 199 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: tell if you're not being real, you know, if you're 200 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: not being true to yourself. So I knew from the 201 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: beginning that whichever way I was going to go, I 202 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: had to be true to myself and I couldn't get 203 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: too far away from who I actually was because I'm 204 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: a good actor, but I'm not that good to be 205 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: able to do it for twenty four seven. So it was, 206 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, just be yourself who you are. But at 207 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: the same time, because I was Mahori, my dad said 208 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: to me, you know, we're in there for a reason, 209 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: you know, and if you can help, try and help. 210 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: So I chose. I chose how I was going to go, 211 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: and it was just going to be straight up and 212 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: just to be me to a certain extent. And yeah, 213 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: that I started as I meant to carry on, and 214 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: I did that. 215 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 2: How did you cope with that pressure? What coping mechanisms 216 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: did you use? Knowing that you were going to be 217 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: pushed manipulated, you know, sort of swayed in a way 218 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: where they're going to use your culture against you, they 219 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 2: were going to use your identity against you. How did 220 00:13:58,440 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: you manage that? 221 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: I had to have a cutoff point, you know, I 222 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: could take so much and then it'd be over. You know, 223 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: I would have taken as much as I could take, 224 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: and then they were going to get it all back. 225 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: It was because I'd chosen where I was going to stand. 226 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: I didn't need to detour from it. My thinking didn't 227 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: need to be compromised because I'd already made my stance. 228 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: And that so most times when I went into situations, 229 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: people knew what my stance was going to be. And 230 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: I remember the first time that I stepped over that 231 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: point of being not sure to be No, you're not 232 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: going to do that to me again. And here's my line. 233 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: I was walking into a wing one time, I was 234 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: very new, and a prisoner was standing at the door 235 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: and he wanted to see somebody. But the person was busy, 236 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: and I said to him, he's busy, and and this 237 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: prisoner started to give me a bit of a mouthful 238 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: as I was going into the wing, but I carried 239 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: on going in, and I went in and I did 240 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: what I had to do, and then I came back out. 241 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: And because this prisoner knew that I was on my own, 242 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: that there weren't staff around, and I was still sort 243 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: of creeping around the place at that stage, and so 244 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: they didn't really know me. And so I remember coming 245 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: back out of the wing and this prisoner was still 246 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: giving me a bit of mouth as I was coming out. 247 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: But I got out of the wing and I went 248 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: to shut the door, and as I locked it, he 249 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: started to boot the door and he started to yell 250 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: at me and abuse me, and I just lost it. 251 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: I went from being timid to giving him worse than 252 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: what he gave me, and in the end I had 253 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: to be dragged away by the other staff from him 254 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: because I wouldn't stop. 255 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: So you almost broke character, right, it's the first time 256 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 2: that you broke You broke character from him, from you know, 257 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: potentially you know, being that professional doing your job to 258 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: someone pushing you over the line and almost bringing your 259 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: outside life inside the prison walls. 260 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: Right, absolutely did. He brought the mongrel out of me. 261 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: And because he swore at me, so I saw back 262 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: at him. And then when it finished, I wanted to 263 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: charge him. And my mates were going, but you can't 264 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: charge him, and I said, but I want to charge him. 265 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: He offended me, and they said, yeah, but what did 266 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: you say to him? I said, oh, wow, I said 267 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: what I said? And they said, you swore back at him, 268 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: and they said, you cannot charge them because you've done 269 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: exactly the same thing as him. And they said, in future, 270 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: if you want to have won any of these games, 271 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: you've got to learn how to control yourself. So it 272 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: was but it was good for me in that moment. 273 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: I knew if I needed to get my back up, 274 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: I could. It was still there and I hadn't lost it. 275 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: And yeah, that set me off on my path of yeah, 276 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: down that path. But I was big on talking, you know, 277 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: I and de escalation was my biggest thing. I mean, 278 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: I like to script, but you know, I prefer harmony 279 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: in peace, and so de escalation, talking, you know, trying 280 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: to work it out and bring it down was my specialty. 281 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: It's what I worked hard for. 282 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: And how did that serve you moving forward? Because I 283 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: love that that was you know, you just joined. That 284 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 2: was a great life lesson, A great life lesson within 285 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 2: within within the prison service to learn from such a 286 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 2: young age and at the beginning of your career. And 287 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 2: it seems like that that you took that and you 288 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: and you used that as an example moving forward. 289 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: Oh, I definitely did, because I learned to language after that, 290 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: you know, I learned if I was just going to 291 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: say what I wanted to say, is that I would 292 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: lose the battle in that. So I learned to language. 293 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: It was professional and I could say it without even thinking, 294 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: and that saved me quite a lot into my time. 295 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: And it was it's always better to be able to 296 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: walk away and look at each other later and just 297 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: laugh over it and go geez. Could have gone way 298 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: way worse than that, you know, because everyone's always grateful 299 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: when it doesn't because prisoners. Prisoners are at a disadvantage. 300 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: I mean totally they are when they're in prison. But 301 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: you know, they can't do anything. They can't go anywhere 302 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: unless you let them, unless they were a real bad bastard, 303 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: which I didn't find many of those. You know, you 304 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: want to try and make it a little bit humane 305 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: and give them a little bit of decent scene to 306 00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: maintain who they are. Men are quite simple, I think, 307 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: you know, with things like that. And I found there 308 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: do you not many men that I couldn't talk to, okay, 309 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: And that was that's what I really enjoyed a lot 310 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: of the times. You know, I'd have conversations with different 311 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: people while we were doing things, and you know, be 312 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: quite surprised on how that conversation went or whatnot. But yeah, 313 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: I found I found me and really good to talk to. 314 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 2: Was it sad to see, you know, potentially some some 315 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: really good people, you know, that had a lot of 316 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: potential that were behind bars, that had ruined their lives 317 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,239 Speaker 2: due to one mistake or one hot headed decision or 318 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 2: you know, I know there's there's serial offenders. But was 319 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 2: there ever moments that you that that sort of emotional 320 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: roller coaster sort of came into play. How hard was 321 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 2: that to keep your emotions outwardly? 322 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: Uh? You know, facially I probably would express them, but 323 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: never outwardly. But inwardly it'd be absolutely soul destroying because 324 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: it's like a phony you had this chance or a phony. 325 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: You knew who your dad was and who your mom was, 326 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: you know. And when I was at school, I remember, 327 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, everyone's looking about what they're going to do 328 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: when they finished school. And this is when benefits first 329 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: came in, and I remember my schoolmates going, I'm just 330 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: going to have a baby and go on the benefit 331 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: and it was like you I couldn't, you know, it 332 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: was just wasn't heard of in those days. But their 333 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: children have come through and they had babies to go 334 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: on the benefit and that was purely what they did, 335 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: and their babies grew up with no love, no anything, 336 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: and then they had their babies. So that's what we've 337 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: got now, is we've got people that are results of 338 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: a money financial transition, you know, that haven't been loved, 339 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: don't know where they come from, and how will they 340 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: be able to get on, you know, in life successfully 341 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: unless they find people around them that are going to 342 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: support them. So you're totally disappointed and angry about it 343 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: because it's still happening. We lived off the land and 344 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: we lived off the sea, and that was something that 345 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: all of our people knew from the time's gone by, 346 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: and that they don't know that anymore. That you can 347 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: go out and get watercress out of the river, or 348 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: you can go down to the beach and catch a 349 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: fish and cook it for your family. You don't have 350 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: to go to the shop and steal keep something, you know. 351 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: And that's where I'm so sad and disappointed about where 352 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: our future's gone. But then again, you've got families out 353 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: there that have had generations are going through the prison 354 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: service and they're finally starting to break that cycle and 355 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: by going back to their culture and all of that 356 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But it's quite funny. There's a word 357 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: and it's called a kupupa, which means it means a 358 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: Maldi that works for a white person and government type 359 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: of thing. You know. So you've gone against your own time. 360 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I get what you're saying there. Yeah, yep. 361 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: So I could be considered as coupapa at times because 362 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: I went, you know, and I work under the crown 363 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: and all of that sort of stuff, and that's my 364 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: own people, and you know. And but also being Malory 365 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: came into because there were times in there that Maldy 366 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: prisoners would use the culture against non Malti staff, you know, 367 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: and non Maldi staff get quite apprehensive and they don't 368 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: want to upset anybody, so they don't really know how 369 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: to reply. So I used to love those ones because 370 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: I go in and give them heats about culture, you know, 371 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: and about talking to people. If you want to use 372 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: your culture against people. Yeah, yeah, there was two sides. 373 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: But you know, I stick up for the Maldis and 374 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: I'm Malory, but don't you hear your people? 375 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? What a trying to get on the bad side 376 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 2: of you, that's for sure, you know, because you come 377 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 2: with a lot of knowledge, you come with a lot 378 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 2: of life experience, which I love because you know, you 379 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 2: can shut people down, you know, the whole thing about 380 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: using you know, manipulating culture against non cultural individuals. Again, 381 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 2: you can really fill that gap. How hard was it 382 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 2: Wander to separate your home life, your family life, with 383 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: your prison life. How did you manage to keep the 384 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: two separate? 385 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a it was a definite decision to 386 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: do that because at home I wanted to maintain a 387 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: softness where I could walk around in my pink everything, 388 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: you know, and fluffies all sorts, and you know, snuggling 389 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: with my animals and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, 390 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: so when I was at home, I was at home. 391 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: And yeah, it was as soon as I walked out 392 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: of work, jumped in the car and on the way home, 393 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, you just take that head off, like you said, 394 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: and put the other one on. And because growing up 395 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: under with a prison officer as a dad, you know, 396 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: I've quite often heard through my life people say, oh, 397 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: don't bring that home to us, or you know, don't 398 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: bring your prison office aways home. You know, I never 399 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: liked that it. I didn't, you know, because I thought 400 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: it wasn't fear I'm dead or anything like that. But 401 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: I was always mindful of it. So yeah, I didn't 402 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: bring I didn't bring my stuff home. 403 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: How hard was it not to let that mask slip? 404 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: Was there any obvious moments that it did slip? And 405 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 2: how hard was it to just keep those? Because I 406 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: know how hard it is. 407 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: You know. 408 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm in the zone at home and then my 409 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 2: military head or military jargon comes out. When I'm at work, 410 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 2: I'm this stone face, you know, in struck Down, this 411 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 2: stone face sort of a team member and the team 412 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: leader that's there to get the job done. And all 413 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 2: I want to do is do the best job and 414 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: get it done, and then clock off and go home 415 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 2: knowing that I've done the best job that I can do. 416 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: There's nothing, no stone left unturned, and then when I 417 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 2: go home, I can be a father and I can 418 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:52,959 Speaker 2: be a husband. 419 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: That's what I admired about you and still do. Is 420 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: is that fit that you could go and you you 421 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: were ultra hard, you know, And what I loved is 422 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: that you'd swear it them, you know, because I really 423 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: wanted to swear it people sometimes in training to get 424 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: to get it through to them, you know, but yeah, 425 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: bloody awesome men. But you can tell, you know, you 426 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: one hundred percent committed and to that moment to what 427 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: you're doing. But you know, hats off that you could 428 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: go home and take that off, you know, and become 429 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: a family man again, because that would not have been easy. 430 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: Did you feel in a very similar situation. Did you 431 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: find it easy or did you naturally slip into slip 432 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: those masks on and off how easier? Or did it 433 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 2: take its toll on you? 434 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, it took its toll on me, definitely, But 435 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: that was only after I'd left, really, but it was 436 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: it wasn't hard to slip from one to the other. 437 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: It was just driving into the car park at work 438 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: and it would start to come on. And as soon 439 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: as I walked into the control room the first point 440 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: of entry, yeah, she was on. 441 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 2: She was on. 442 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, And whatever had happened. 443 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 2: Outside was the different world. 444 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was there. It didn't come into work, and 445 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: very rarely did I have people ringing me at work 446 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: either with things. If people ring me at work, it 447 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: was really really serious, so you know, they knew that 448 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: while I was there. My head was on. It was 449 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: this is how it is, this is what we're doing, 450 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: you know, And then I'd get out of work and 451 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: go in and see them be totally different. They're like, 452 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: you're out of it. 453 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 2: Obviously in prison, there's a lot of gangs, there's a 454 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 2: lot of by keys and that that still functions and 455 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 2: operates within the prison. Who really runs the prison? Is 456 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: it the prison officers or is it the gangs and 457 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 2: the bikey's it's it's the prisoners, the prisoners. 458 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: It's prisoners, Yeah, not just gangs, prisoners. Yeah, they run 459 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: the prisoner but yeah, mainly gains because they, like I said, 460 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: the structure is intent, it's solid. 461 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: And when you mean that, you mean they're loyalty. They're 462 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: you know, they've just taken their outside life and then 463 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 2: now sort of structuring it and molding it around a 464 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: new inside life. But they've got the same values, they've 465 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 2: got the same principles, they've got the same loyalty. Is 466 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 2: that how it works. 467 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: They've got the same ranking structure. You've got the fridge, 468 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: you've got little you've got the little boards. 469 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: So you take that from the street life and it 470 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: translates in to prison life. 471 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: Oh wow, even more so because they're in a more 472 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: confined environment and so you're stuck. You're stuck in there 473 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: with each other. So it's way more you know, the 474 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: structure is what you better listen, you've definitely got your 475 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: place in it. And you know, as prison officers too, 476 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: if you wanted to ignore that that they had a 477 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: structure and they had a ranking structure, you could, you know, 478 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: and you could just not acknowledge it at all, but 479 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: it wouldn't go down well, you know, so you had 480 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: to work with them. You had to technowledge that you're 481 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: in their environment because they lived there. We just visited, 482 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: you know. So and when you've got like when you've 483 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: got a lot of people standing around you, prisoners and 484 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: you're able to stand there, it's only because they're leading you. Yeah, 485 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: stand there, you know, in the peaceful So it's yeah, yeah, 486 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: but at the same time you hit to lead them, 487 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: think that no, I own this, not not you know, 488 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: it's my not yours. So it's a partnership you work 489 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: with them. 490 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 2: Is there an element of respect where you go, right, listen, 491 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: I respect you because ultimately, you know, when it comes 492 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 2: to command and control, they're keeping their people in check, 493 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,719 Speaker 2: and you're keeping your people in check. So it's I 494 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 2: suppose there has to be sort of that mutual respect 495 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 2: where you can't ignore that it happens, right, It's like, yeah, 496 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 2: actually it's actually works because they're keeping all the little 497 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 2: scally wags in check and all their you know, they 498 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,239 Speaker 2: have to report up to a hierarchical system and you know, 499 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 2: and and then I suppose with your hbuckle structure on 500 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 2: the other side, there's that mutual aspect, there's that mutual 501 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 2: understanding and it has to be has to be there, right, Yeah. 502 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: And so you know a lot of times if they 503 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: were like gang incidents or anything like that, you went 504 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: and talked to the top dog. 505 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 2: You did. 506 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: I never mucked around with the little ones, you know, 507 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: if I had anything that needed or if anything, because 508 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: you could go and talk to them and say, hey, 509 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: that little follow over the is playing up and he's 510 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: going to cause you fellow's problems, so you need to 511 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: do something about it, or will do something about it. 512 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: So it was that sort of thing, you know, and 513 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: they would you know, they'll go and I I can't 514 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: have that happening or things like that. So it was 515 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: you didn't go mucking around talking to the little boy 516 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: to go and tell the big boss. No, you know 517 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: not if you wanted to, you went straight to the 518 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: big boss and you had a negotiation with them, you know. So, 519 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: but and that that was a good saying with me. 520 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: I was a prison liaison officer a lot of the 521 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: times in my units where I was the point of 522 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: call for the prisoners, So it was talking with them, 523 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, talking with the right people. And yeah, you 524 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: hate to show them respect, you hate to leave them. No, 525 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: I acknowledge that you're the boss. 526 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: M Yeah. Yeah, And I suppose it's in a way 527 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 2: where you still have to keep your credibility intact, your 528 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 2: authoritative sort of stature intact. Right, So there's that. It's 529 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 2: that fine line. This is what I say always say 530 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 2: about being in a role like that. It's got so 531 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: many masks that you have to put on, so many 532 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 2: you know, you have to follow your gut. You have 533 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 2: to be emotionally aware or emotionally intelligent to just recognize 534 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 2: that someone's having a bad day and that you could 535 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 2: potentially help. You have to be you know, physically and 536 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 2: psychologically sort of focused and intact because you know something's 537 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 2: going down. You know, you know it is there's there's 538 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 2: there's so much of being a prison officer that that 539 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 2: that fascinates me and that that you know, you look 540 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: at that role when you think to yourself, wow, you 541 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 2: know you're going into a whole world of the unknown 542 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 2: and you literally have to be super reactive and and 543 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 2: you know on it twenty four to seven because the 544 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: moment I suppose there's that breakdown of respect and there's 545 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 2: that breakdown of communication, that's when chaos, you know, unfolds, right. 546 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: Yep, absolutely, you know that that's where it does. And 547 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: if you're not prepared to go and talk to people 548 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: and you know, put your ego aside, that's where it 549 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: will cause problems too, you know. And a lot of 550 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: the times there's a female, that's where we could step 551 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: in and go, you know what about if it's this 552 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: or you know, you can talk and help break that 553 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: testosterone down a little bit so that they can actually 554 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: are communicating because you get two forces going at each 555 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: other and all they want to do is fight, but 556 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: they don't really want to fight. So it was you know, 557 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: we came in handy that way. 558 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 2: And you said before briefly that that men are easier 559 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: to deal with than women? Is do you stick by 560 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 2: that statement? Is that true? 561 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: Yes, totally, till the end of my day, tell me 562 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: about tell the end of my days. I don't know. 563 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: It's what's the difference in why? Why is it is 564 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 2: it easier to deal with men? 565 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: I think with them male, well, with them being a female, 566 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: I know what they're like for a start, so already 567 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: you know it's don't go there. But with the males, 568 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, you'd have an altercation, you'd have a few words, 569 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: and then it would be over. You know, you'd come 570 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: to a solution of some sort. With the females. For 571 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: me per personally, we'd have a few words and then 572 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 1: I think I'd get upset. We'd be going from having 573 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: words to wanting to have fights more than not than 574 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: I would with me. And I think, you know, so 575 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: it was yeah and passed aloud. 576 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, women are more complicated, Like you said, men are simple, 577 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 2: Women are more complicated creatures, aren't they. That's that's I 578 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: think that's a known factor. 579 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: You know, Oh, no disrespect to it, you know, different 580 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: absoletely respect. Yeah, but my two sisters worked with the 581 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: woman and they loved it. But yeah, but we're totally 582 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: different people, you know, we're not the same. 583 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 2: I can see you, you know, holding being held in 584 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 2: high regard, you know, being massively respected, and I think 585 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 2: that comes down to being you know, consistently disciplined. With 586 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 2: you saying right, I'm on this side. I'm always thinking about, 587 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 2: you know, the line. Yes we're going to touch that line, 588 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 2: and yes we're going to bend it. However I'm never 589 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 2: going to step foot over it. And I think people 590 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 2: really respect that because I know that I respect and 591 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 2: whether whether it's good or bad, I respect when someone's consistent, 592 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 2: and when they're consistently bad, I know I can work 593 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 2: on that. That's not a problem. I much prefer that 594 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 2: than them to be inconsistent. And you know, mood swings 595 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 2: and you know, different personalities, et cetera, et cetera. But 596 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 2: I know that people super respect you know, people who 597 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 2: are who are who are just who they are. You know, 598 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 2: they say it how it is, this is who I am, 599 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 2: this is where I can help. But ultimately you know 600 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 2: this is the line, and you stamp that out from 601 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 2: the beginning that you do not cross I will not 602 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 2: cross it. You do not cross it. However, we can 603 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 2: have a talk at the fence for sure, and we 604 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,399 Speaker 2: can bend that fence this way, bend it this way, 605 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 2: you know, and we'll be good to go. So I 606 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: can see that in you, Wanda, that that's that you 607 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 2: would have had a great career of being held in 608 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 2: high regard and respected. What's the worst thing that you've 609 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 2: that you've had to deal with and that you've witnessed 610 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 2: within within within the prison walls. Because I know that 611 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 2: when things go bad and there's inter gang and inter rival, 612 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 2: bikey game, whatever it may be, I know things can 613 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 2: go south very quick. Was it helk me through that 614 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,959 Speaker 2: the worst, you know, the worst experience that you've had 615 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 2: as a prison officer? 616 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: Hm hmm. I think it probably would have been towards 617 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: the end of my career. And you know, I seen 618 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: a lot of scripts and seeing all sorts of stuff 619 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: go down with the boys and whatnot, But this time 620 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: was a a firerst timer. He you know, he was 621 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: just a doing I think about eight months for something 622 00:37:53,200 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: really minor, and he had this lovely girlfriend and and 623 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 1: she was pregnant with their first child, and she'd come 624 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: in to visit her. And you can tell the ones 625 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: that you know, I have no idea where they are. 626 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: They are just not used the environment. They're too nice 627 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: for it. And she was one of those sorts, and 628 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: actually he was too. He had no idea where he was, 629 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: and you know, we kind of watched them because we 630 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: wanted him to get out. We could see her belly 631 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: swelling and all of that sort of stuff. And then 632 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: we had this day where it was a family day 633 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: and all these people came in and this boy got 634 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: mixed up with the wrong sort of people and his partner. 635 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: He was told that his partner had to bring stuff 636 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: in for these guys. And these guys that we had there, 637 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: they were from Auckland and just bad, really bad. We'd 638 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: had a lot of trouble with them before, and so 639 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: she had to bring this stuff in. And so she 640 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: got the stuff. She was on her way into the 641 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,879 Speaker 1: prison and she saw that the search team was there 642 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: and everything, so she chucked this stuff out the window. 643 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: She didn't know and she came in and had her 644 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,839 Speaker 1: visit and everything like that, and the visits all went 645 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: really well. Everything finished, we all went back into the unit, 646 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 1: and within about probably ten minutes of us being in 647 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 1: the unit, this guy was horrifically beaten basically to death. Wow. 648 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: And it was. And it was really weird because I 649 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: was out in the compound straight up after we had 650 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: come back in, and I was doing stuff and I 651 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: was just listening to see how it was all going 652 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: and whatnot, and it all seemed alright. And I walked 653 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: back inside and then yeah, we'd heard that this guy 654 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: had been beaten. He was brought down to the control room. 655 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: He was carried down, blood was pissing out everywhere. He 656 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: was smashed, and it was because the stuff that his 657 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: partner was bringing in was about fifty thousand dollars worth 658 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: of smack and she'd thrown it out the window and 659 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: our search team found it. But you know, that's a 660 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: lot of stuff, that's a lot of money. It was 661 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: a life and the years so they took, they basically 662 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,359 Speaker 1: took his life. Yeah, that's one that I will never 663 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: forgive them for or forget, you know. And I remembered 664 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: that night after the unit was all locked up and 665 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 1: they're all in there, and I went around to do 666 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: my checks, you know, and I'm trying to look for 667 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: where this would have happened. I'm trying to look for 668 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: the blood trails and all of that sort of stuff. 669 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,240 Speaker 1: And I asked everybody as I went around, what happened, 670 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 1: you know, what going on? And nobody seeing anything. And 671 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: I remember when I finished my around, I just stood 672 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: in the middle of the compound and I just called 673 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: them all a peck of funckwords. I said, your fucking assholes. 674 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: Do you fucking do that? You know? And I said, 675 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: and you fucking wait until we find out who it was, 676 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: and you're going to get it, you know. And yeah, 677 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,399 Speaker 1: And it was the first time I sort of had 678 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: leap my emotion like that, and yeah, and I knew 679 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: that once that happened, I was I knew in my 680 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: own mind, you're you're starting. 681 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 2: To go down that slop, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, 682 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 2: the yeah, it's starting to cross over. It's starting to 683 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 2: seep into your into into the real Wonda and yeah, 684 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 2: it's it's, you know, completely normal. And I suppose that's 685 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 2: when you realize, like I did, you know. I remember 686 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 2: going on my final you know, my final tour of 687 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 2: Afghanistan and when we used to hit dry holes. In 688 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 2: a dry hole is when you know the enemy have 689 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 2: found out that you're coming, and you go there and 690 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 2: it's and there's no one there. You know you've done 691 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 2: all your intel. You know, you know that the high 692 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 2: value targets there and then you hit, you hit the 693 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 2: target and they've been pre warned. And I can remember 694 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 2: when I used to hit dry holes on my on 695 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 2: my final tour, and I didn't press the trigger. I 696 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:20,839 Speaker 2: used to get back and I used to feel good 697 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 2: about that. You know, I used to drink to myself, 698 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 2: do you know what? I didn't have to pull the trigger. 699 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 2: I didn't have and that's when I knew as well, 700 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 2: you know, I sort of knew. I was like, all right, 701 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 2: listen this seep and over. I've done three back to 702 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 2: back tours. I've been in the military for thirteen fourteen years, 703 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 2: and I was just like, you know what I'm done. 704 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 2: I'm going to I'm going to pass the torch over. 705 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 2: And it sounds like that you were very much at 706 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 2: that moment when you passed the torch over, which is 707 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 2: you know, is it comes to us all? It comes 708 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 2: to us all? But Roonda, you wrote a book Inside 709 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 2: the Wire. When did you write that? And where can 710 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,399 Speaker 2: we get it? Because you know, this interview has been fascinating, 711 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 2: and I know that people are going to want to 712 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 2: hear so much more. So, when did you write your book? 713 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 2: And where where can we find it? 714 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 1: I wrote my book in two months actually, oh wow, 715 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: and it will I know, yep, it was Am I 716 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 1: going to write it? Will I write it? Should I 717 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: write it? And then by the time I decided to 718 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: write it, I had about two months leaft, so it 719 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:35,399 Speaker 1: was last year and I would have been writing now 720 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 1: years so July August during July August has when I 721 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: wrote the book? 722 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 2: Did it help you? You know, there's I find when 723 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 2: I write, it helps me. You know, even though I 724 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 2: revisit my past and I read, but I find it, 725 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 2: you know now that I can revisit it with a 726 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 2: positive mindset because you know, I've got a lot of 727 00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 2: life experience. You know, I'm matured, my you know, I'm 728 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 2: a family man now and I can look back on 729 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 2: my career and pluck the positives from you know, all 730 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 2: these negative situations, which I think really helped me to 731 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 2: write my book. Did it help you? What did you 732 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 2: find writing writing therapeutic? And do you think it helped 733 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 2: you in the transition of you know, of leaving the 734 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 2: prison service. 735 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: I did, Yeah, definitely. It was my farewell to the prison. 736 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: You know, it was it was going to be my 737 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: memoirs is what it was going to be called. But yeah, 738 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: it was my you know, because I did love it. 739 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: I loved doing it, I loved being in it. And 740 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 1: it was sad to say goodbye, but I wanted to 741 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: do it justice and give it, give it the best 742 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: that I could. Anyways, so it was very therapeutic and 743 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: it was goodbye, see you later, and thank you very 744 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: much really because I doubt it. I would never have 745 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,880 Speaker 1: you know, done the thing, the experiences and all of 746 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,879 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff in you. 747 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 2: Know, chap chapter closed, right, it was like chapter closed 748 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 2: now and move on to next. 749 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 1: You know. 750 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 2: Amazing. Well, Wonder it's been an absolute pleasure having you 751 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 2: on my podcast head Game talk about you know, someone 752 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,840 Speaker 2: that's been through it, that's had to use the their 753 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 2: their emotions, their mindset, their their bodies to help others ultimately. 754 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: You know. 755 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 2: That's what I got out of this interview is you've 756 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 2: you've helped I'm sure hundreds and thousands of people, and 757 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 2: reading your book, I'm sure it's going to help hundreds 758 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,400 Speaker 2: and thousands of more. Wonda, You're a star. Thank you 759 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 2: so much, and good luck with whatever you're doing next. 760 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: Hey, thank you so much. You're the man you know 761 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: in all of my out or how to you? My 762 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 1: love and taha. Be strong, always be strong, and never 763 00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 1: say fucking never because you're the boss. 764 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 2: Roonda's book Inside the Wire is out now. I'll put 765 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 2: the details on how to find it in the show notes. 766 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,799 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me on this episode of a head Game. 767 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. 768 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 2: I'm at Middleton. See you again next time.