WEBVTT - Cheng Lei: the wise, sweary, funny survivor of a Chinese prison

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<v Speaker 1>From the Australian. This is the weekend edition of The Front.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Claire Harvey. Three years in custody, isolation, psychological torture,

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<v Speaker 1>deprivation of every kind. When Australian journalist Chung Lei was

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<v Speaker 1>imprisoned in China, wrongfully convicted of espionage, she was forced

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<v Speaker 1>by her captors to write so called self reflections declarations

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<v Speaker 1>of guilt. It was all part of the torture and

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<v Speaker 1>Lay had to comply expressing a guilt she had no

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<v Speaker 1>reason to feel. Lay was innocent. Now she's written a book,

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<v Speaker 1>The Truth, this time on her own terms, accompanied by

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<v Speaker 1>a documentary and a Ted talk on her harrowing experience.

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<v Speaker 1>Her book for HarperCollins, A Memoir of Freedom, is released

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<v Speaker 1>on Wednesday. For June and her docors dum Entry. Chung

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<v Speaker 1>Lay My Story premieres on Tuesday, the third of June

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<v Speaker 1>on Sky News and sky News dot com Dot a U.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got to know Lay over the past few years,

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<v Speaker 1>and she's warm, funny, super smart and deeply kind. I

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<v Speaker 1>hope you enjoy our conversation. In twenty twenty, Chung Lai

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<v Speaker 1>was a glamorous news anchor working for a Chinese state

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<v Speaker 1>owned TV station. You were living the life of a

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<v Speaker 1>kind of rom com, this glamorous Beijing apartment, sort of

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<v Speaker 1>trotting into work in your shift dress and your year

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<v Speaker 1>more Bridget Jones. She had an incredible network of friends

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<v Speaker 1>and contacts, including her close friend Hayes, a Chinese who

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<v Speaker 1>was working for American news agency Bloomberg. One day, Lay

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<v Speaker 1>sent Hayes a text. It was mundane the main points

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<v Speaker 1>that would soon be announced in the Chinese premier's annual

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<v Speaker 1>work report. The text said, no growth target GDP nine

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<v Speaker 1>million jobs target. It's the kind of information journalists exchange

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<v Speaker 1>all the time. Government agencies set embargoes on press releases

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<v Speaker 1>or speeches, and if an Australian journalist like me jumped

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<v Speaker 1>the gun and published early, I'd probably get an angry

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<v Speaker 1>call from a media advisor. That'd be it. Unbeknownst to Lay,

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<v Speaker 1>she sent that text to Hayes seven minutes before the

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<v Speaker 1>news was allowed to be published under an embargo she

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know existed. China said she'd revealed a state secret.

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<v Speaker 1>For the next three years, Lay would be known only

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<v Speaker 1>by her prisoner number two to one, double zero three.

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<v Speaker 1>Lay writing the book about the music that was used

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<v Speaker 1>to wake everybody up in the detention center. What was that?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, Beethoven, it was for release. Sometimes I would

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<v Speaker 2>have been awake for hours already, just staring at the tiles,

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<v Speaker 2>counting them again and again. And I hear that music

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<v Speaker 2>and always sigh a little, because it's ruined it for

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<v Speaker 2>me forever.

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<v Speaker 1>And all my cell mates. Lay started out in solitary

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<v Speaker 1>confinement Harris.

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<v Speaker 2>Dell is the Chinese spelling for.

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<v Speaker 1>Hell RSDL residential surveillance in a designated location all day

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<v Speaker 1>and night. She was watched in a windowless room where

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<v Speaker 1>the light was never turned off by officers constantly positioned

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<v Speaker 1>within a meter of her. And then she moved to

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<v Speaker 1>a detention center where she shared a cell with other women,

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<v Speaker 1>also prisoners of the Ministry of State Security, also accused

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<v Speaker 1>of crimes like espionage or sharing state secrets. Nobody was

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<v Speaker 1>allowed to use their real name, just a number, but

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<v Speaker 1>Lay and her cellmates gave one another nicknames. There was

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<v Speaker 1>og for Ottawa, Grandma, a Canadian Chinese woman, Canto, a

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<v Speaker 1>Cantonese speaker from China South, and Psycho Bitch, a prickly

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<v Speaker 1>prisoner with whom Lay found herself trapped. They called her

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<v Speaker 1>peeb for short. I've got a passage that I was

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<v Speaker 1>hoping you would read for us, actually, and it's about

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<v Speaker 1>when you were in a cell just by yourself with

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<v Speaker 1>psycho bitch. Oh yeah, would you mind reading it? Thank you?

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<v Speaker 2>PB was turning the detention center rules into a joke.

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<v Speaker 2>It became a cycle. The officers would discipline her in

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<v Speaker 2>sensing her to the point of uncontrollable fury, which escalated

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<v Speaker 2>the punishments and her retaliation.

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<v Speaker 1>She seemed to get off on it.

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<v Speaker 2>Even after screaming at the detention center chief earned her

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<v Speaker 2>three days and nights of handcuffs. She said she was

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<v Speaker 2>going to sue the detention center for discrimination and was

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<v Speaker 2>going to report Canto's varied sins. It dawned on me

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<v Speaker 2>that the world stepped back when you had no shame,

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<v Speaker 2>no qualms about lying, and the loud voice that you

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<v Speaker 2>used often. She was the Donald Trump of inmates. To

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<v Speaker 2>combat this constant stress, I had to be my own

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<v Speaker 2>coach first world problems. Think of people experiencing wars and famine,

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<v Speaker 2>being brutalized. This is the best time in my life

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<v Speaker 2>to read and study Zen Mantra. Life is full of suffering.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything is in flux. Only if you stop grasping, can

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<v Speaker 2>you have peace of mind? Each time she pisss me off,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll do ten pushups. Imagine that she's my annoying little sister.

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<v Speaker 2>I have to put up with her. This is temporary,

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<v Speaker 2>and things could be worse. They have been worse. In

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<v Speaker 2>my first six months, I had no sunshine, no TV,

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<v Speaker 2>no conversations, and nothing I could call my own. I

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<v Speaker 2>reversed the Eschylus quote that there is no pain as

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<v Speaker 2>great as the memory of joy in present grief. I

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<v Speaker 2>believed when I got out there would be no bliss

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<v Speaker 2>so complete as the memory of suffering in present joy.

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<v Speaker 1>Did that turn out to be true when you got out?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely? The counterpoint really helps us appreciate the smallest thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Every time I put a cap on the toothpaste, every

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<v Speaker 2>time I hang out washing, every time I put on

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<v Speaker 2>a piece of jewelry and look at myself in the mirror,

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<v Speaker 2>things like spotting a flower or feeling the breeze on

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<v Speaker 2>my face. Without what I suffered, I will just take

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<v Speaker 2>all this for granted.

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<v Speaker 1>And is there anything that you've let go of? Conversely,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, are there big and small things that don't

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<v Speaker 1>annoy you anymore or not.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty chilled about almost everything. When people honk at me,

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<v Speaker 2>I smile at them, And when I see something annoying,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll remind myself that I'm so privileged to be able

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<v Speaker 2>to have that annoyance. And I eat a lot and

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<v Speaker 2>don't really fret about, oh, what I look like. I've

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<v Speaker 2>only bought very little clothes because I went for three

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<v Speaker 2>years and two months wearying, you know, two or three

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<v Speaker 2>T shirts and all of my worldly belongings can fit

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<v Speaker 2>into one little container. So now material things mean a

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<v Speaker 2>lot less to me.

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<v Speaker 1>What you've just described seems like a part of the

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<v Speaker 1>Chinese philosophy of living too, you know, eating all parts

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<v Speaker 1>of the animal, for example, not wasting a life. Yes

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<v Speaker 1>that you've taken for food. It seemed to me that

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<v Speaker 1>in prison you felt very Australian. What remnants are there

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<v Speaker 1>of your Chinese personality? And where do you land now?

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<v Speaker 2>You know? I love that question because it's one that

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<v Speaker 2>I often ask myself. It is very conflicting to be

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<v Speaker 2>ethnically Chinese, to try to separate what I feel for

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<v Speaker 2>the country, whatever you call a country. It's almost because

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<v Speaker 2>of the incarceration I find country, a nation, and state

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<v Speaker 2>to be dirty words because there was me, an Australian

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<v Speaker 2>Chinese citizen working for a Chinese company, well state owned company,

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<v Speaker 2>thinking I was helping a Chinese friend who worked for

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<v Speaker 2>an American company, and they call it espionage. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>obviously they had to pin something on me. But the

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<v Speaker 2>absurdity of the lines we draw on this planet. Instead

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<v Speaker 2>of being nationalist, we should be earthist, universalist. We're not

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<v Speaker 2>so different.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the first times I met you, Yes, we

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<v Speaker 1>met when we were both going to a big, fancy

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<v Speaker 1>event where we were both going to be on stage,

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<v Speaker 1>the Australian sixtieth Anniversary. We started talking about whether we

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<v Speaker 1>got stage fridle nervousness on stage, and you told me

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<v Speaker 1>about a phrase that one of your TV mentors had

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<v Speaker 1>taught you. That's right, what was it?

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<v Speaker 2>BTFI beyond the fuck it. We've all had those fuck

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<v Speaker 2>it moments. I've stuffed up many times on air off air,

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<v Speaker 2>and if you can ride out that worst wave, you'll

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<v Speaker 2>find serenity.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things I like about that is that

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<v Speaker 1>it tells me something about you. You know, you like

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<v Speaker 1>swearing for a stile.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a you know, preworquisite of being Australian, I think

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<v Speaker 2>and working in TV right, oh, definitely, Live TV.

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<v Speaker 1>Language is very stressful, and you are you seem to

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<v Speaker 1>me to be comfortable with being a flawed creature, being

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<v Speaker 1>a human. You know you are open to revealing everything

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<v Speaker 1>about yourself, and you.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't take myself seriously.

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<v Speaker 1>Your book is very revelatory. You have really gone there

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<v Speaker 1>in every way about going to the toilet and having

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<v Speaker 1>your period and everything that happened to you in prison,

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<v Speaker 1>many things that other people might have glossed over. Did

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<v Speaker 1>it occur to you to gloss that over? To present

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<v Speaker 1>a version of yourself that didn't go to the toilet?

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't have periods.

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<v Speaker 2>No. I think it's a big part of being human

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<v Speaker 2>to feel pain and discomfort, and if we can't acknowledge that,

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<v Speaker 2>then what's the point of writing. I like to think

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<v Speaker 2>that I've written an honest book, and it's just a

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<v Speaker 2>big reversal from what China is about, which is hugely

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<v Speaker 2>glossing over things, making up facts, pinning crimes on people,

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<v Speaker 2>and then saying with a straight face, this did not happen.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things about writing a book a memoir

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<v Speaker 1>is that you step back into the past very deeply.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you have any moments of thinking, I kind of

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<v Speaker 1>wish I hadn't come back into this moment, and I

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<v Speaker 1>wish I was just moving forward.

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<v Speaker 2>No, because even towards the end of my incarceration, I

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<v Speaker 2>found peace inside and that meant I was no longer

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<v Speaker 2>afraid of pain. I mean, I've written passages in that

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<v Speaker 2>book where I was howling by myself, and I don't

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<v Speaker 2>see that as a negative or a deterrent to writing.

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<v Speaker 2>Pain is a counterpoint for happiness and pleasure. A lot

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<v Speaker 2>of Buddhism is about not trying to grasp joy or

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<v Speaker 2>avoid pain, but letting it all flow through.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a remarkable book. It's one of those books that

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<v Speaker 1>really takes me somewhere else, you know, the wonderful, magical

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<v Speaker 1>thing that books can do. And when you're trying to

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<v Speaker 1>teach children to read, the hope that they will get

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<v Speaker 1>this idea that if you have a book, you can

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<v Speaker 1>escape and you.

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<v Speaker 2>Start to channel the spirit of the writer.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I've always I felt like I was in there

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<v Speaker 1>with you, in that cell with Og and Psycho, Bitch

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<v Speaker 1>can Doo and Skinny. Yeah, as a cell mate. Were

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<v Speaker 1>you conscious of trying to be a good cell mate,

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<v Speaker 1>or were you just trying to get yourself through it.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, to do one, you do the other. I think

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<v Speaker 2>I came through relatively okay because I felt each day

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to teach them some more songs. We

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<v Speaker 2>were going to sing a bit more without getting into

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<v Speaker 2>too much trouble, and share books, and I was going

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<v Speaker 2>to make up new games, and we're going to have

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<v Speaker 2>some laughs, and each day it's going to be a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit of fun. Otherwise it's just too dark and

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<v Speaker 2>too utterly dull. One partying phrase I love to leave

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<v Speaker 2>people with is have fun. Life's too short to take

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<v Speaker 2>yourself too seriously or to stress out about small.

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<v Speaker 1>Stuff coming up. More from my interview with Chung Wi.

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<v Speaker 1>Random detention of people is such a powerful weapon in

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<v Speaker 1>silencing people. There's a theory that you were collateral damage

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<v Speaker 1>in the Australian government's criticism of China over the origins

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<v Speaker 1>of COVID. If the price that foreign governments pay for

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<v Speaker 1>speaking up about China is the potential detention of a

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<v Speaker 1>citizen and effectively the torture of a human being, is

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<v Speaker 1>it still worth it for foreign governments to speak up?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we have to better protect our citizens, like the

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<v Speaker 2>Alliance that we created led by Kylie Moore Gilbert and

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<v Speaker 2>co founded with Sean Turnell. We think if there was

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<v Speaker 2>a specialized Envoyd role for victims of hostage diplomacy, then

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<v Speaker 2>it's a stronger deterrent. But I also think by my

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<v Speaker 2>speaking out after what happened, it's a deterrent to China

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<v Speaker 2>incarcerating more journalists, more Australians, because if you don't change

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<v Speaker 2>your ways, then people are going to find out more

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<v Speaker 2>about your secret prisons, and China is ultra secretive about

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<v Speaker 2>its state security incarceration.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you have any hope that anyone in China will

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<v Speaker 1>see you or read your words.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I'm not hopeful that that would happen unless they

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<v Speaker 2>went overseas. I by mistake, clicked on some Chinese articles

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<v Speaker 2>when the press release about my book went out in February,

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<v Speaker 2>and the hateful comments under that all of them were

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<v Speaker 2>hateful that I was a foreigner loving slut. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the whole sexcess thing comes out. I should

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<v Speaker 2>be put back into jail. I should never been let out.

0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:14.720
<v Speaker 2>I should be shot on the spot. I don't deserve

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:16.760
<v Speaker 2>to have my children with me because I'm such a

0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.880
<v Speaker 2>bad role model, and on and on, and as upsetting

0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:26.040
<v Speaker 2>as it was to read it, it motivates me to

0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:31.560
<v Speaker 2>speak up even louder because that's what they want. They

0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.240
<v Speaker 2>want you to feel shame and guilt for being human,

0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.440
<v Speaker 2>for telling the truth, and that's not going to happen.

0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:43.360
<v Speaker 1>And just finally, the colleague working for an American company

0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:45.520
<v Speaker 1>who you sent the text message to which was the

0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.400
<v Speaker 1>pretext for putting you in prison, Yes, Hayes Farm. Yes,

0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.480
<v Speaker 1>she was also detained but was released on bail before

0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.440
<v Speaker 1>you were released. How do you feel about her now?

0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:02.560
<v Speaker 2>I'd love to talk to her, very forgiving person. I

0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.800
<v Speaker 2>don't do anger, I don't do hate. I like to

0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:10.840
<v Speaker 2>talk and find out what happened to her.

0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:16.159
<v Speaker 1>Well, you often talk about feeling that you don't deserve praise,

0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:19.680
<v Speaker 1>and maybe that's the Australian part of you, or maybe

0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:21.400
<v Speaker 1>it's the Chinese part or just the human part.

0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:23.680
<v Speaker 2>No, it's having a very strict dad.

0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.840
<v Speaker 1>But if you were ever in any doubt, now you

0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.280
<v Speaker 1>have created a work of art in the book that

0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.399
<v Speaker 1>is going to change other people's lives. And you know

0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:41.080
<v Speaker 1>we'll make everybody's life better, including people who are in detention. Well, congratulations,

0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.000
<v Speaker 1>thank you, thank you. Don't want to embarrass you by

0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:49.080
<v Speaker 1>praising you, but I'm grateful. I'm grateful to be Australian

0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:53.800
<v Speaker 1>and to be free. Each day I reflect on.

0:17:54.560 --> 0:18:00.320
<v Speaker 2>The kindnesses of our people as a whole, and I

0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.320
<v Speaker 2>just want to do so much more to make it better.

0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.280
<v Speaker 1>Chung Lay is an anchor on Sky News Australia. Her

0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.760
<v Speaker 1>book for HarperCollins, a Memoir of Freedom, is released on

0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.360
<v Speaker 1>Wednesday for June, and her documentary Chung Lay My Story,

0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.440
<v Speaker 1>premieres on Tuesday three June on Sky newsand sky News

0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.720
<v Speaker 1>dot Com dot a You. This episode of the Front

0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.679
<v Speaker 1>was hosted by me Claire Harvey and co produced with

0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:34.280
<v Speaker 1>Jasper League, who edited the episode and also wrote our theme.

0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:36.880
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us on the Front this week. Our

0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:41.320
<v Speaker 1>team also includes Kristin Amiot Leat, Sammaglu, Tiffany Dimac, Josh

0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:49.720
<v Speaker 1>Burton and Stephanie Combs.