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Speaker 1: From the Australian. This is the weekend edition of The Front.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Harvey. Three years in custody, isolation, psychological torture,

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Speaker 1: deprivation of every kind. When Australian journalist Chung Lei was

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Speaker 1: imprisoned in China, wrongfully convicted of espionage, she was forced

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Speaker 1: by her captors to write so called self reflections declarations

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Speaker 1: of guilt. It was all part of the torture and

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Speaker 1: Lay had to comply expressing a guilt she had no

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Speaker 1: reason to feel. Lay was innocent. Now she's written a book,

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Speaker 1: The Truth, this time on her own terms, accompanied by

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Speaker 1: a documentary and a Ted talk on her harrowing experience.

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Speaker 1: Her book for HarperCollins, A Memoir of Freedom, is released

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Speaker 1: on Wednesday. For June and her docors dum Entry. Chung

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Speaker 1: Lay My Story premieres on Tuesday, the third of June

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Speaker 1: on Sky News and sky News dot com Dot a U.

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Speaker 1: I've got to know Lay over the past few years,

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Speaker 1: and she's warm, funny, super smart and deeply kind. I

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Speaker 1: hope you enjoy our conversation. In twenty twenty, Chung Lai

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Speaker 1: was a glamorous news anchor working for a Chinese state

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Speaker 1: owned TV station. You were living the life of a

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Speaker 1: kind of rom com, this glamorous Beijing apartment, sort of

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Speaker 1: trotting into work in your shift dress and your year

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Speaker 1: more Bridget Jones. She had an incredible network of friends

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Speaker 1: and contacts, including her close friend Hayes, a Chinese who

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Speaker 1: was working for American news agency Bloomberg. One day, Lay

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Speaker 1: sent Hayes a text. It was mundane the main points

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Speaker 1: that would soon be announced in the Chinese premier's annual

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Speaker 1: work report. The text said, no growth target GDP nine

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Speaker 1: million jobs target. It's the kind of information journalists exchange

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Speaker 1: all the time. Government agencies set embargoes on press releases

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Speaker 1: or speeches, and if an Australian journalist like me jumped

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Speaker 1: the gun and published early, I'd probably get an angry

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Speaker 1: call from a media advisor. That'd be it. Unbeknownst to Lay,

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Speaker 1: she sent that text to Hayes seven minutes before the

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Speaker 1: news was allowed to be published under an embargo she

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Speaker 1: didn't know existed. China said she'd revealed a state secret.

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Speaker 1: For the next three years, Lay would be known only

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Speaker 1: by her prisoner number two to one, double zero three.

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Speaker 1: Lay writing the book about the music that was used

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Speaker 1: to wake everybody up in the detention center. What was that?

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Beethoven, it was for release. Sometimes I would

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Speaker 2: have been awake for hours already, just staring at the tiles,

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Speaker 2: counting them again and again. And I hear that music

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Speaker 2: and always sigh a little, because it's ruined it for

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Speaker 2: me forever.

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Speaker 1: And all my cell mates. Lay started out in solitary

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Speaker 1: confinement Harris.

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Speaker 2: Dell is the Chinese spelling for.

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Speaker 1: Hell RSDL residential surveillance in a designated location all day

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Speaker 1: and night. She was watched in a windowless room where

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Speaker 1: the light was never turned off by officers constantly positioned

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Speaker 1: within a meter of her. And then she moved to

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Speaker 1: a detention center where she shared a cell with other women,

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Speaker 1: also prisoners of the Ministry of State Security, also accused

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Speaker 1: of crimes like espionage or sharing state secrets. Nobody was

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Speaker 1: allowed to use their real name, just a number, but

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Speaker 1: Lay and her cellmates gave one another nicknames. There was

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Speaker 1: og for Ottawa, Grandma, a Canadian Chinese woman, Canto, a

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Speaker 1: Cantonese speaker from China South, and Psycho Bitch, a prickly

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Speaker 1: prisoner with whom Lay found herself trapped. They called her

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Speaker 1: peeb for short. I've got a passage that I was

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Speaker 1: hoping you would read for us, actually, and it's about

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Speaker 1: when you were in a cell just by yourself with

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Speaker 1: psycho bitch. Oh yeah, would you mind reading it? Thank you?

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Speaker 2: PB was turning the detention center rules into a joke.

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Speaker 2: It became a cycle. The officers would discipline her in

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Speaker 2: sensing her to the point of uncontrollable fury, which escalated

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Speaker 2: the punishments and her retaliation.

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Speaker 1: She seemed to get off on it.

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Speaker 2: Even after screaming at the detention center chief earned her

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Speaker 2: three days and nights of handcuffs. She said she was

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Speaker 2: going to sue the detention center for discrimination and was

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Speaker 2: going to report Canto's varied sins. It dawned on me

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Speaker 2: that the world stepped back when you had no shame,

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Speaker 2: no qualms about lying, and the loud voice that you

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Speaker 2: used often. She was the Donald Trump of inmates. To

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Speaker 2: combat this constant stress, I had to be my own

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Speaker 2: coach first world problems. Think of people experiencing wars and famine,

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Speaker 2: being brutalized. This is the best time in my life

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Speaker 2: to read and study Zen Mantra. Life is full of suffering.

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Speaker 2: Everything is in flux. Only if you stop grasping, can

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Speaker 2: you have peace of mind? Each time she pisss me off,

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Speaker 2: I'll do ten pushups. Imagine that she's my annoying little sister.

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Speaker 2: I have to put up with her. This is temporary,

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Speaker 2: and things could be worse. They have been worse. In

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Speaker 2: my first six months, I had no sunshine, no TV,

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Speaker 2: no conversations, and nothing I could call my own. I

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Speaker 2: reversed the Eschylus quote that there is no pain as

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Speaker 2: great as the memory of joy in present grief. I

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Speaker 2: believed when I got out there would be no bliss

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Speaker 2: so complete as the memory of suffering in present joy.

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Speaker 1: Did that turn out to be true when you got out?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? The counterpoint really helps us appreciate the smallest thing.

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Speaker 2: Every time I put a cap on the toothpaste, every

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Speaker 2: time I hang out washing, every time I put on

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Speaker 2: a piece of jewelry and look at myself in the mirror,

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Speaker 2: things like spotting a flower or feeling the breeze on

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Speaker 2: my face. Without what I suffered, I will just take

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Speaker 2: all this for granted.

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Speaker 1: And is there anything that you've let go of? Conversely,

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Speaker 1: you know, are there big and small things that don't

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Speaker 1: annoy you anymore or not.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty chilled about almost everything. When people honk at me,

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Speaker 2: I smile at them, And when I see something annoying,

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Speaker 2: I'll remind myself that I'm so privileged to be able

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Speaker 2: to have that annoyance. And I eat a lot and

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Speaker 2: don't really fret about, oh, what I look like. I've

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Speaker 2: only bought very little clothes because I went for three

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Speaker 2: years and two months wearying, you know, two or three

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Speaker 2: T shirts and all of my worldly belongings can fit

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Speaker 2: into one little container. So now material things mean a

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Speaker 2: lot less to me.

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Speaker 1: What you've just described seems like a part of the

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Speaker 1: Chinese philosophy of living too, you know, eating all parts

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Speaker 1: of the animal, for example, not wasting a life. Yes

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Speaker 1: that you've taken for food. It seemed to me that

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Speaker 1: in prison you felt very Australian. What remnants are there

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Speaker 1: of your Chinese personality? And where do you land now?

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Speaker 2: You know? I love that question because it's one that

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Speaker 2: I often ask myself. It is very conflicting to be

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Speaker 2: ethnically Chinese, to try to separate what I feel for

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Speaker 2: the country, whatever you call a country. It's almost because

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Speaker 2: of the incarceration I find country, a nation, and state

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Speaker 2: to be dirty words because there was me, an Australian

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Speaker 2: Chinese citizen working for a Chinese company, well state owned company,

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Speaker 2: thinking I was helping a Chinese friend who worked for

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Speaker 2: an American company, and they call it espionage. I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously they had to pin something on me. But the

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Speaker 2: absurdity of the lines we draw on this planet. Instead

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Speaker 2: of being nationalist, we should be earthist, universalist. We're not

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Speaker 2: so different.

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Speaker 1: One of the first times I met you, Yes, we

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Speaker 1: met when we were both going to a big, fancy

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Speaker 1: event where we were both going to be on stage,

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Speaker 1: the Australian sixtieth Anniversary. We started talking about whether we

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Speaker 1: got stage fridle nervousness on stage, and you told me

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Speaker 1: about a phrase that one of your TV mentors had

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Speaker 1: taught you. That's right, what was it?

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Speaker 2: BTFI beyond the fuck it. We've all had those fuck

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Speaker 2: it moments. I've stuffed up many times on air off air,

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Speaker 2: and if you can ride out that worst wave, you'll

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Speaker 2: find serenity.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I like about that is that

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Speaker 1: it tells me something about you. You know, you like

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Speaker 1: swearing for a stile.

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Speaker 2: It's a you know, preworquisite of being Australian, I think

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Speaker 2: and working in TV right, oh, definitely, Live TV.

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Speaker 1: Language is very stressful, and you are you seem to

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Speaker 1: me to be comfortable with being a flawed creature, being

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Speaker 1: a human. You know you are open to revealing everything

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Speaker 1: about yourself, and you.

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Speaker 2: Don't take myself seriously.

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Speaker 1: Your book is very revelatory. You have really gone there

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Speaker 1: in every way about going to the toilet and having

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Speaker 1: your period and everything that happened to you in prison,

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Speaker 1: many things that other people might have glossed over. Did

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Speaker 1: it occur to you to gloss that over? To present

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Speaker 1: a version of yourself that didn't go to the toilet?

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Speaker 1: I didn't have periods.

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Speaker 2: No. I think it's a big part of being human

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Speaker 2: to feel pain and discomfort, and if we can't acknowledge that,

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Speaker 2: then what's the point of writing. I like to think

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Speaker 2: that I've written an honest book, and it's just a

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Speaker 2: big reversal from what China is about, which is hugely

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Speaker 2: glossing over things, making up facts, pinning crimes on people,

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Speaker 2: and then saying with a straight face, this did not happen.

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Speaker 1: One of the things about writing a book a memoir

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Speaker 1: is that you step back into the past very deeply.

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Speaker 1: Did you have any moments of thinking, I kind of

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Speaker 1: wish I hadn't come back into this moment, and I

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Speaker 1: wish I was just moving forward.

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Speaker 2: No, because even towards the end of my incarceration, I

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Speaker 2: found peace inside and that meant I was no longer

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Speaker 2: afraid of pain. I mean, I've written passages in that

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Speaker 2: book where I was howling by myself, and I don't

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Speaker 2: see that as a negative or a deterrent to writing.

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Speaker 2: Pain is a counterpoint for happiness and pleasure. A lot

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Speaker 2: of Buddhism is about not trying to grasp joy or

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Speaker 2: avoid pain, but letting it all flow through.

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Speaker 1: It's a remarkable book. It's one of those books that

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Speaker 1: really takes me somewhere else, you know, the wonderful, magical

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Speaker 1: thing that books can do. And when you're trying to

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Speaker 1: teach children to read, the hope that they will get

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Speaker 1: this idea that if you have a book, you can

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Speaker 1: escape and you.

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Speaker 2: Start to channel the spirit of the writer.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I've always I felt like I was in there

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Speaker 1: with you, in that cell with Og and Psycho, Bitch

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Speaker 1: can Doo and Skinny. Yeah, as a cell mate. Were

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Speaker 1: you conscious of trying to be a good cell mate,

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Speaker 1: or were you just trying to get yourself through it.

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Speaker 2: Well, to do one, you do the other. I think

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Speaker 2: I came through relatively okay because I felt each day

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Speaker 2: I was going to teach them some more songs. We

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Speaker 2: were going to sing a bit more without getting into

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Speaker 2: too much trouble, and share books, and I was going

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Speaker 2: to make up new games, and we're going to have

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Speaker 2: some laughs, and each day it's going to be a

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Speaker 2: little bit of fun. Otherwise it's just too dark and

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Speaker 2: too utterly dull. One partying phrase I love to leave

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Speaker 2: people with is have fun. Life's too short to take

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Speaker 2: yourself too seriously or to stress out about small.

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Speaker 1: Stuff coming up. More from my interview with Chung Wi.

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Speaker 1: Random detention of people is such a powerful weapon in

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Speaker 1: silencing people. There's a theory that you were collateral damage

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Speaker 1: in the Australian government's criticism of China over the origins

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Speaker 1: of COVID. If the price that foreign governments pay for

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Speaker 1: speaking up about China is the potential detention of a

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Speaker 1: citizen and effectively the torture of a human being, is

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Speaker 1: it still worth it for foreign governments to speak up?

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Speaker 2: Well, we have to better protect our citizens, like the

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Speaker 2: Alliance that we created led by Kylie Moore Gilbert and

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Speaker 2: co founded with Sean Turnell. We think if there was

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Speaker 2: a specialized Envoyd role for victims of hostage diplomacy, then

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Speaker 2: it's a stronger deterrent. But I also think by my

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Speaker 2: speaking out after what happened, it's a deterrent to China

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Speaker 2: incarcerating more journalists, more Australians, because if you don't change

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Speaker 2: your ways, then people are going to find out more

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Speaker 2: about your secret prisons, and China is ultra secretive about

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Speaker 2: its state security incarceration.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any hope that anyone in China will

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Speaker 1: see you or read your words.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm not hopeful that that would happen unless they

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Speaker 2: went overseas. I by mistake, clicked on some Chinese articles

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Speaker 2: when the press release about my book went out in February,

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Speaker 2: and the hateful comments under that all of them were

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Speaker 2: hateful that I was a foreigner loving slut. Of course,

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Speaker 2: you know, the whole sexcess thing comes out. I should

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Speaker 2: be put back into jail. I should never been let out.

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Speaker 2: I should be shot on the spot. I don't deserve

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Speaker 2: to have my children with me because I'm such a

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Speaker 2: bad role model, and on and on, and as upsetting

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Speaker 2: as it was to read it, it motivates me to

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Speaker 2: speak up even louder because that's what they want. They

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Speaker 2: want you to feel shame and guilt for being human,

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Speaker 2: for telling the truth, and that's not going to happen.

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Speaker 1: And just finally, the colleague working for an American company

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Speaker 1: who you sent the text message to which was the

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Speaker 1: pretext for putting you in prison, Yes, Hayes Farm. Yes,

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Speaker 1: she was also detained but was released on bail before

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Speaker 1: you were released. How do you feel about her now?

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Speaker 2: I'd love to talk to her, very forgiving person. I

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Speaker 2: don't do anger, I don't do hate. I like to

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Speaker 2: talk and find out what happened to her.

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Speaker 1: Well, you often talk about feeling that you don't deserve praise,

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Speaker 1: and maybe that's the Australian part of you, or maybe

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Speaker 1: it's the Chinese part or just the human part.

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Speaker 2: No, it's having a very strict dad.

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Speaker 1: But if you were ever in any doubt, now you

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Speaker 1: have created a work of art in the book that

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Speaker 1: is going to change other people's lives. And you know

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Speaker 1: we'll make everybody's life better, including people who are in detention. Well, congratulations,

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Don't want to embarrass you by

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Speaker 1: praising you, but I'm grateful. I'm grateful to be Australian

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Speaker 1: and to be free. Each day I reflect on.

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Speaker 2: The kindnesses of our people as a whole, and I

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Speaker 2: just want to do so much more to make it better.

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Speaker 1: Chung Lay is an anchor on Sky News Australia. Her

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Speaker 1: book for HarperCollins, a Memoir of Freedom, is released on

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Speaker 1: Wednesday for June, and her documentary Chung Lay My Story,

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Speaker 1: premieres on Tuesday three June on Sky newsand sky News

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Speaker 1: dot Com dot a You. This episode of the Front

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Speaker 1: was hosted by me Claire Harvey and co produced with

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Speaker 1: Jasper League, who edited the episode and also wrote our theme.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on the Front this week. Our

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Speaker 1: team also includes Kristin Amiot Leat, Sammaglu, Tiffany Dimac, Josh

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Speaker 1: Burton and Stephanie Combs.