WEBVTT - 50 years on, could the Dismissal happen again?

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<v Speaker 1>Robert.

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<v Speaker 2>Tomorrow marks fifty years since this infamous moment when a

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<v Speaker 2>clearly nervous spokesperson for the Governor General stood on the

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<v Speaker 2>steps to Parliament House and announced that Gough Whitlam had

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<v Speaker 2>been dismissed.

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<v Speaker 1>Why his Excellency's commanded, Malcolm Fraser pray, Minister John Arker,

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<v Speaker 1>Governor General, God.

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<v Speaker 2>Save the Queen. But what happened that day in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventy five wasn't just an unprecedented political crisis. It was

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<v Speaker 2>a warning one that exposed the fagility of our constitution

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<v Speaker 2>and the lingering power of assistant design to serve the

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<v Speaker 2>monarchy ahead of the people.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, may we say, God save the Queen?

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<v Speaker 3>Well cause nothing well say with the Governor General.

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<v Speaker 2>Since then, nothing has changed to stop this from happening again.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to seven.

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<v Speaker 4>AM today Press Gallery veteran Paul bon Jorno what the

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<v Speaker 4>dismissal revealed about Australia's democratic foundations and why he says

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<v Speaker 4>we need to become a republic to stop history repeating.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Monday, November ten. Paul, where were you when yous

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<v Speaker 2>broke that Whitlam had been dismissed.

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<v Speaker 4>Well.

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<v Speaker 1>I was in Woongong, New South Wales working for wind

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<v Speaker 1>Television News and we just completed an interview for a

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<v Speaker 1>news item that night in fairy Meadow was the suburb

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<v Speaker 1>I remember it world And we just got back into

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<v Speaker 1>the news car and I turned the radio on. It

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<v Speaker 1>must have been about three o'clock and the lead story

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<v Speaker 1>was that the Governor General had sacked the Prime Minister,

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<v Speaker 1>Gough Whitlam.

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<v Speaker 3>What a day it's been in Except for the most

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<v Speaker 3>hardened of political journalists, it's been a mind bending experience.

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<v Speaker 1>Now we were taken aback, although there had been speculation,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, for a week or so that maybe this

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<v Speaker 1>could happen, because the newspapers, particularly the Australian, but also

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<v Speaker 1>the leader of the Opposition, Malcolm Fraser, were calling for

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<v Speaker 1>the Governor General to act and to end the political

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<v Speaker 1>crisis that was happening due to the fact that the

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<v Speaker 1>opposition in the Senate was blocking the supply bills for

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<v Speaker 1>the government.

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<v Speaker 3>I asked the Prime Minister for the second time whether

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<v Speaker 3>he and his government would resign for the second time.

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<v Speaker 3>He replied that he would not. The opposition now has

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<v Speaker 3>no choice. We will use the power vested in us

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<v Speaker 3>by the Constitution and delay the passage of the government's

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<v Speaker 3>money bills through the Senate until the Parliament goes to

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<v Speaker 3>the people.

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<v Speaker 2>And in the days that followed you actually interviewed with

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<v Speaker 2>them about what had hun folded. Can you tell me

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<v Speaker 2>about that interaction that interview.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, Whitlam had agreed while he was Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 1>to turn up to a multicultural event in the Woollongong

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<v Speaker 1>Town Hall on the Saturday night and he stuck to

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<v Speaker 1>this appointment. And the news editor who said you better

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<v Speaker 1>take a crew and see if you can nab Whitlam.

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<v Speaker 1>So we went over to the Woollongong Town Hall and

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<v Speaker 1>only by the time we got there there was an

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<v Speaker 1>ABC four Corners set up with Kerry O'Brien being the reporter,

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<v Speaker 1>and they'd organized to do a live interview into four Corners,

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<v Speaker 1>which in those days went to air on Saturday night.

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<v Speaker 1>So while they were setting all that up, I went

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<v Speaker 1>up to Whitlam and I said, mister Whitlam, I'm from

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<v Speaker 1>the local TV news. Can we do a quick interview

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<v Speaker 1>with you after mister O'Brien has finished with you, And

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<v Speaker 1>he said certainly, And he asked me my name, and

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<v Speaker 1>I told him, and he said, ah, Italian, and I

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<v Speaker 1>nodded my head. I didn't say see, I could have anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>When the interview began, he started off and he said,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, there has been a coup data or in

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<v Speaker 1>Italian a colpa Dustato, and then he went on to

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<v Speaker 1>smell out that in his view, Sir John Kerr had

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<v Speaker 1>not only acted improperly, but that he'd used powers that

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<v Speaker 1>were at best moot, and that certainly Labor didn't believe

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<v Speaker 1>existed any longer. So in Whitlam's mind, and in the

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<v Speaker 1>mind of course of many, this was the equivalent of

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<v Speaker 1>a violent, although non bloody, change of government.

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<v Speaker 2>The coup Data had succeeded, the punch had come off,

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<v Speaker 2>so Whitlam called it a coup. How was it that

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<v Speaker 2>dismissal was able to happen in the first place.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, a dismissal was able to happen in the first

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<v Speaker 1>place due to the fact that we share the same

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<v Speaker 1>constitutional arrangements as what they call a constitutional monarchy. And

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<v Speaker 1>that means that the monarch who is the head of

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<v Speaker 1>state or indeed her depth or representative in Australia, acts

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<v Speaker 1>on the advice of their prime Minister, and the legitimacy

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<v Speaker 1>of the government is established in the lower house of

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<v Speaker 1>Parliament in our case the House of Representatives, and the

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<v Speaker 1>leader who has the confidence of the House, if not

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<v Speaker 1>a majority, forms government and this is then recognized by

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<v Speaker 1>the Head of State. But in our system the Senate

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<v Speaker 1>can block crucial money bills, something that can't happen in Westminster.

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<v Speaker 1>They knocked that power out of the House of Lords

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<v Speaker 1>at the beginning of the twentieth century. So Malcolm Fraser

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<v Speaker 1>and his leader in the Senate, the toe cutter, they

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<v Speaker 1>used to call him Reg Withers, they decided to play

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<v Speaker 1>hard ball after a year, it has to be said

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<v Speaker 1>of political shambles coming from the Whitlam government, and they said,

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<v Speaker 1>unless Whitlam calls an election, supply will be blocked.

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<v Speaker 2>The Senate cannot.

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<v Speaker 3>Determine who the government shall be.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, Whitlam was trying to stare them down in the

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<v Speaker 1>Senate and it was dragging on. But there is evidence

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<v Speaker 1>to say that it was at least two or three

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<v Speaker 1>weeks before the money actually ran out, and Whitlam was

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<v Speaker 1>under the understanding he had political intelligence to say that

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<v Speaker 1>Fraser couldn't hold his troops and at least two would abstain.

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<v Speaker 1>We now know subsequently from the archives five Liberal senators

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<v Speaker 1>said they wouldn't block supply. So we now know with

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<v Speaker 1>hindsight that Fraser, in pushing the Governor General to intervene,

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<v Speaker 1>did so peremptorily and before the crisis of the money

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<v Speaker 1>not being available had actually happened. And we also know

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<v Speaker 1>during the political standoff in the Senate, Fraser had his

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<v Speaker 1>shadow Attorney General write and opinion that said that the

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<v Speaker 1>Governor General must sack the Prime Minister. When Whitler mask

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<v Speaker 1>Kerr about it, Kerr said, according to Whitlam, and he

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<v Speaker 1>told others this, including Paul Keating, that Kerr said bullshit.

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<v Speaker 1>So that led Whitlam to believe that indeed Kerr was

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<v Speaker 1>on the government side rather than the opposition side. Whitlam

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<v Speaker 1>is on the record of saying Kerr won't sack me.

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<v Speaker 1>One quote was he hasn't got the guts. Another quote

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<v Speaker 1>was he's more sympathetic to us. So all of those

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<v Speaker 1>assessments from Whitlam were as history chose us completely wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming up, If Albanez he wants Australia to become a republic,

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<v Speaker 2>why isn't he holding a referendum. Paul, it's been fifty

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<v Speaker 2>years since the dismissal. Why do you think this particular

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<v Speaker 2>moment in our political history still resonates so strongly today.

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<v Speaker 1>It's unique in our democratic history. That's for starters. But

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<v Speaker 1>why it resonates today is that Kerr's ability to literally

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<v Speaker 1>trash the foundational conventions of a constitutional monarchy still go unchecked.

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<v Speaker 1>There are no safeguards in our constitution or anything we

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<v Speaker 1>have done since nineteen seventy five to prevent a dismissal

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<v Speaker 1>happening again. Kerr has set the precedent and it seems

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<v Speaker 1>that things that could not happen in Britain can now

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<v Speaker 1>happen in Australia, where our system, at the whim of

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<v Speaker 1>a tyrant, literally can be turned on its head.

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<v Speaker 2>Paul. Anthony Alberanezi has ruled out a referendum on the

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<v Speaker 2>Republic in this term. Given what we've just heard about

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<v Speaker 2>the unresolved problems at the heart of the constitution. How

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<v Speaker 2>does he justify that?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, he just advised in two ways. One, in an

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<v Speaker 1>interview he gave on Insiders after he saw the King

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<v Speaker 1>at Balmoral, he said we wanted to hold one referendum

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<v Speaker 1>while I was Prime minister, and we did.

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<v Speaker 2>That, and that's it. We did that, so one referendum

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<v Speaker 2>the entire time you're Prime minister. We did that, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think we're concentrating.

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<v Speaker 1>On Interestingly enough, the evaded answering David Spear's next question

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<v Speaker 1>on whether that meant forever while he remained Prime minister. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>I checked this out and a source close to the

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<v Speaker 1>Prime Minister and people in the Prime Minister's office made

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<v Speaker 1>clear to me that Alberonizi has not ruled out revisiting

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<v Speaker 1>these issues while he's Prime minister. He's ruled it out

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<v Speaker 1>for this term, and whether he revisits it in another

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<v Speaker 1>term in the next term is a decision that has

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<v Speaker 1>not yet been made.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you think becoming a republic would mean for Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>Paul Well.

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<v Speaker 1>In the first instance, it would show that Australia had

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<v Speaker 1>finally grown out of its colonial past, that it was

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<v Speaker 1>now a self respecting, independent, sovereign state with its own rules,

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<v Speaker 1>its own head of state, and its own ability to

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<v Speaker 1>determine the direction that it wants to take constitutionally, and

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<v Speaker 1>not have the head of state of what is now

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<v Speaker 1>a foreign power, namely Great Britain be able to interfere

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<v Speaker 1>in such an egregious way as we saw in the

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<v Speaker 1>lead up to the dismissal fifty years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>In the meantime, then what else could be done to

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<v Speaker 2>stop something like nineteen seventy five happening all over again.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, there are a number of issues in the Constitution

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<v Speaker 1>that do need addressing, but primarily the so called reserve

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<v Speaker 1>powers need to be codified. We need a referendum that

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<v Speaker 1>either codifies it, lays down strict rules how they can

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<v Speaker 1>be used, or a referendum to say they no longer

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<v Speaker 1>exist in that way. But also I think we definitely

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<v Speaker 1>do need a broader conversation on renovating the Constitution and

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<v Speaker 1>in fact making sure that an Australian can be a

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<v Speaker 1>head of state and not someone from a British family

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<v Speaker 1>of a particular religious belief.

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<v Speaker 2>And finally, Paul, it's been half a century. How is

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<v Speaker 2>history judged to three main players in the dismissal Kerr,

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<v Speaker 2>Fraser and Whitlam.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the further away we get from nineteen seventy five,

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<v Speaker 1>the worst that Kerr looks, and one word sums up

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<v Speaker 1>Kerr deceit. People get confused, They think the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>Fraser then won the subsequent election in a landslide gave

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<v Speaker 1>the tick to Kerr. Well, no it didn't, because during

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<v Speaker 1>the crisis, public opinion was against Fraser. It was only

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<v Speaker 1>after that crisis was settled that the voters went back

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<v Speaker 1>to the point that the Whitlam government had during that

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<v Speaker 1>year performed very poorly and a hostile media never let

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<v Speaker 1>them off the hook. And the other point to make

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<v Speaker 1>is that Kerr, by making Fraser the Prime Minister, immediately

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<v Speaker 1>nobbled Whitlam. So Kerr comes out of it badly when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to Fraser. Well, I think we can listen

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<v Speaker 1>to what Whitlam said about Fraser. He said, Fraser was

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<v Speaker 1>my opponent. He did what oppositions do in our system,

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<v Speaker 1>and he never deceived me. I always knew he was

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<v Speaker 1>trying to knock me off and going for it. And

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<v Speaker 1>as we know, the two men actually became friends and

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<v Speaker 1>allies calling for an Australian head of state back in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety nine. And as for Whitlam, well, Whitlam is

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<v Speaker 1>a giant in Australian history for what he achieved in

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<v Speaker 1>dragging Australia into the contemporary world on so many issues.

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<v Speaker 1>But he's also a flawed giant. His judgment of people

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<v Speaker 1>and his handling of the broader political issues during his

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<v Speaker 1>prime ministership went a long way to make him extremely

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<v Speaker 1>vulnerable to the political tactics of Fraser. One commentator said

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<v Speaker 1>of Fraser, he actually rang rings around Whitlam when it

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<v Speaker 1>came to the crucial and final political crisis.

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<v Speaker 2>Paul, thank you so much for your time at Rivederci.

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<v Speaker 1>Out of Adecci, Daniel Tanti Belle cause so many beautiful

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<v Speaker 1>things to you and your family.

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<v Speaker 2>Also in the news, a neo Nazi rally outside New

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<v Speaker 2>South Wales Parliament on Saturday was allowed to go ahead

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<v Speaker 2>by police. Organizers from the White Australia Group notified police

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<v Speaker 2>more than a week ago about their intention to hold

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<v Speaker 2>the protest and nothing was done to stop them. Police

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<v Speaker 2>Commissioner Mal Lanyon has confirmed. Commissioner Lanyon said he was

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<v Speaker 2>not personally aware that the protest would be taking place

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<v Speaker 2>and therefore had not alerted the government. He confirmed a

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<v Speaker 2>review would now be undertaken to investigate what he described

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<v Speaker 2>as a communication error, and the coalition's Housing spokesperson and

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<v Speaker 2>leading moderate Andrew Bragg says he will quit the front

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<v Speaker 2>bench if the coalition walks away from net zero. Bragg,

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<v Speaker 2>who was a key supporter of Susan Lee, said getting

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<v Speaker 2>rid of net zero would make it impossible to stay

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<v Speaker 2>in the Paris Agreement. The right of the Party are

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<v Speaker 2>pushing for any reference to net zero to be removed

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<v Speaker 2>from the Liberal Party's climate policies when the Party Room

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<v Speaker 2>meets this Wednesday. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening.