Speaker 1: Our nineteen year old says, I want to do exactly
Speaker 1: what your mum did, just from a psychologically much healthier
Speaker 1: place than you two.
Speaker 2: Okay, explain man, what do they look? What have they
Speaker 2: seen that we're not what your record? Hello, and welcome
Speaker 2: to separate bathrooms.
Speaker 3: We would like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the
Speaker 3: Eora nation, the traditional custodians of this land, and pay
Speaker 3: our respects to the elders, both past and present.
Speaker 2: My name's Cam Daddo.
Speaker 4: I'm Ali Daddo.
Speaker 3: The Sydney Morning Herald said about the couple we are
Speaker 3: speaking with today, it's a fair bet that if Jesus
Speaker 3: Christ were around today, he'd be doing what the Owens
Speaker 3: are doing in Mount Druitt. They feed the poor and
Speaker 3: how's the homeless. They lead the lost and counsel the conflicted.
Speaker 4: They're experts at unconditional love, alcoholic moms, runaway kids, petty thieves.
Speaker 4: Everyone has been welcomed at the Owens home. It was
Speaker 4: they're now out of it, but they lived in a
Speaker 4: four bedroom brick house that for well over a decade
Speaker 4: has been equal parts street kitchen and safehouse, as well
Speaker 4: as a home to their three children.
Speaker 3: Yeah, these words were written or over a decade ago.
Speaker 3: They haven't changed. Evidently they are still doing amazing work.
Speaker 3: We're going to meet the Owens. John is a pastor
Speaker 3: and the current CEO of the Wayside Chapel in Sydney.
Speaker 4: And Lisa has a PhD in pharmacology and worked as
Speaker 4: a research scientist at Melbourne's Baker Institute. She's also worked
Speaker 4: as a chapelain herself at EMU Planes Jail and she
Speaker 4: also now works at Wayside Chapel as well.
Speaker 3: Exactly, we have a feeling the Owens are going to
Speaker 3: provide us with a perspective of life and relationship that
Speaker 3: we don't usually hear. Let's welcome John and Lisa to
Speaker 3: the bathroom. Lisa and John, this is not the first
Speaker 3: time that John and I have met. John, just take
Speaker 3: us through that. And what was your first impression of
Speaker 3: Cameron Daddo?
Speaker 2: Where did I remember walking out?
Speaker 1: So I had the front of the chapel on a
Speaker 1: cold winter's evening.
Speaker 2: It's the Wayside at the Wayside Chapel. Yes, and there
Speaker 2: was this very.
Speaker 1: Disheveled and deer in the headlights, little puppy dog sitting
Speaker 1: there in the in the horseshoe, wrapped up in a
Speaker 1: beanie and too many layers, and just kind of had
Speaker 1: no idea what was going on. And I realized later
Speaker 1: it was Cameron in the middle of his filthy, rich
Speaker 1: and homeless. You should have seen this guy's face, right,
Speaker 1: it was you know, you were responding appropriately to the
Speaker 1: situation and the conditions. And I remember watching it back
Speaker 1: and seeing that you were dealing with rats under the
Speaker 1: Blond Eye Pavilion that evening.
Speaker 3: And really immersing myself with the people who were living.
Speaker 2: There as well, who were doing it tough.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, I really appreciated the way you just dived
Speaker 1: into that whole world, right. It wasn't you know, how
Speaker 1: do I get my creature comforts in? You're saying I'm in,
Speaker 1: I'm all in, and you were all in, you know,
Speaker 1: and you know it was I had to chuckle afterwards.
Speaker 2: Of course you didficate and I and the thing was
Speaker 2: about that too.
Speaker 3: I knew that in however many days, I was going
Speaker 3: to have a front door of my own and fruit
Speaker 3: in the bowl, and Ali was going to be there
Speaker 3: with me, and our kids were going to be there,
Speaker 3: and I knew that it was very much an impermanent
Speaker 3: situation for me, and I had that perspective which made
Speaker 3: me feel a deeper empathy for the people that were
Speaker 3: actually there at the Wayside Chapel.
Speaker 1: But you could see in that your eyes you were
Speaker 1: really you were looking for a bit of affirmation and connection,
Speaker 1: you know, particularly when you've spent that much time out
Speaker 1: there alone, or you know, you think everyone seems to
Speaker 1: against me.
Speaker 2: Who's there for?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, hadn't It had been a tough time. I
Speaker 3: remember actually having a walked I think. No, I did
Speaker 3: get the train from North Bondi up to the cross
Speaker 3: with a guy that I was sleeping beside me in
Speaker 3: the back of the pavilion there, and.
Speaker 2: With that identification.
Speaker 1: It's really common for our guys if they're stopped without
Speaker 1: a ticket, to be strip searched as well. So, you know,
Speaker 1: even just to get a meal sometimes it requires a
Speaker 1: loss of dignity.
Speaker 2: Sadly. Yeah, it's incredible, Lisa, Welcome to the bathroom.
Speaker 3: Hell and this you this is your first time podcast.
Speaker 3: How are you feeling nervous?
Speaker 4: It's okay.
Speaker 2: Well you're with my wife. She's the greatest people at
Speaker 2: because she's so kind.
Speaker 4: Thanks, honey, I'm going to go straight to Lisa with
Speaker 4: this question, because I feel like it's one you will
Speaker 4: answer beautifully. How did you and John meet?
Speaker 5: So? John and I were working together in Melbourne, so
Speaker 5: we first met. I'd already been working for the organization
Speaker 5: that we met in for several years and John came
Speaker 5: along to do a two week course with us and
Speaker 5: then stayed for fifteen years.
Speaker 4: So was it a bit of love at first sight
Speaker 4: or was it one that was a slow grow?
Speaker 5: Or look, he was cute, There was no doubt about that.
Speaker 5: He's still cute. But I'm five years older than John,
Speaker 5: so when we met, he needed a few more footy seasons.
Speaker 5: So we actually became really good friends, and then from
Speaker 5: a place of friendship we started dating. And here we
Speaker 5: are twenty three years last weekend.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 4: That's no short feat.
Speaker 5: It's a good start.
Speaker 2: What were you both doing at that time?
Speaker 1: We first met on December two, nineteen ninety six, ninety seven,
Speaker 1: right in four a Lightwood parade, Springvale, I remember it,
Speaker 1: and I was registering for the course where it was
Speaker 1: a two week it was called a mission exposure course
Speaker 1: where the organization that Lisa was working for, which was
Speaker 1: a part of founding Urban Neighbors of Hope was an
Speaker 1: organization that was actually an emissional order that lived and
Speaker 1: took on lifestyle commitments in.
Speaker 2: What we'd call marginalized neighborhoods.
Speaker 1: That's what we caught it back then, anyway, And so
Speaker 1: not only made a commitment to serving in that community,
Speaker 1: but made that commitment to living in that neighborhood as well.
Speaker 1: So the two weeks I just lived in with one
Speaker 1: of their neighbors, who was a bunch of young guys
Speaker 1: who had come over as refugees from me and Malboma,
Speaker 1: and did a few inputs in the morning and a
Speaker 1: bit of service in the afternoon. But I'll still remember
Speaker 1: the first words you ever said to me, Darling, which was, oh,
Speaker 1: you're that guy two hundred dollars please, I'll never forget.
Speaker 5: I love stelling that.
Speaker 4: And why was he that guy?
Speaker 2: And what was the two hundred dollars for?
Speaker 5: So the two hundred dollars was for the course, and
Speaker 5: he was the guy who turned up late.
Speaker 2: You're late.
Speaker 4: We'll hear more about the work that you do today
Speaker 4: and what you've done, But can you just take us
Speaker 4: back into your backgrounds a little bit, and both of
Speaker 4: you are so much about community, about kindness, about care.
Speaker 4: What kind of upbringings did you both have that that
Speaker 4: brought about your desire to work in the fields that
Speaker 4: you both work in.
Speaker 5: I grew up in a Christian household, and my parents
Speaker 5: were very involved with the church. But part of what
Speaker 5: they did too was that they often had people come
Speaker 5: and stay with us. I remember people, one person who
Speaker 5: was a student, somebody else who was in the process
Speaker 5: of stopping drinking alcohol, someone else who was leaving a
Speaker 5: difficult relationship. And so I often said to my parents
Speaker 5: in the years later, I kind of was scripted to
Speaker 5: do what I ended up doing in terms of wasn't
Speaker 5: surprising given the example that I saw them set. So
Speaker 5: my mum had one of those pantries that if extra
Speaker 5: people showed up at dinner time, the meal grew. So, yeah,
Speaker 5: I feel like I grew up with a really good
Speaker 5: example of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1: How about you, John, Yeah, I moved over here from Malaysia,
Speaker 1: where I was born when I was very young. I
Speaker 1: don't really have any memories of that time, and Mum
Speaker 1: and dad set up here, and the kind of way
Speaker 1: that people migrated over here is they'd come and stay
Speaker 1: with you before they settled in, so we always had
Speaker 1: family coming through living with this so until they were
Speaker 1: able to find a place of their own. Grandma moved
Speaker 1: in with this pretty shortly afterwards and lived the next
Speaker 1: twenty five thirty years with this till she passed away.
Speaker 1: So family and caring for others was always really at
Speaker 1: the heart of it, and a lot of hospitality was
Speaker 1: involved in that. And not all of my mum's family
Speaker 1: that came over were coming over for reasons of wanting
Speaker 1: to establish a new life so much as wanting to
Speaker 1: run away from some bad old habits that they continued here.
Speaker 1: So I saw firsthand the impacts of addiction and intergenerational
Speaker 1: trauma as well. I didn't know that that's what it was, yeah,
Speaker 1: at the time, but it was good to see the
Speaker 1: way my parents modeled that. And there was always a
Speaker 1: big pot of food on the stove as well, so
Speaker 1: we never really had to ask if anyone could come over.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was already simmering still is, yeah.
Speaker 3: Okay, So look in doctor Google. There's a lot of
Speaker 3: stuff on you guys about Mount Drewet. Mount Drewitt is
Speaker 3: a suburb in Sydney. Can you guys just describe for
Speaker 3: our listener that doesn't know about Mount Drewitt. Paint a
Speaker 3: picture of the community there and how long you were
Speaker 3: there and what you were doing.
Speaker 1: Maunt drew It is an area of western Sydney that
Speaker 1: it encompasses about twelve little micro suburbs that are when
Speaker 1: they were first built, mostly social and state and public housing.
Speaker 1: I don't know across how everyone. Every state refers to
Speaker 1: it differently. And so that was built in response to
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, these bold social experiments. But essentially the
Speaker 1: government was tasked with trying to clear out some of
Speaker 1: the inner city slums of Newtown and Glebe and Surrey Hills,
Speaker 1: and so they bought these big tracks of land in
Speaker 1: Campbelltown and Mount Druett and they built all this public
Speaker 1: housing well before they built any of the infrastructure.
Speaker 2: They built most of the.
Speaker 1: Houses around an experimental design called the Radburn design, and
Speaker 1: you can see how the streets are constructed before there
Speaker 1: was any of the real support services. So most areas
Speaker 1: that are high levels of unemployment and intergenerational issues that
Speaker 1: emerged from unemployment, but also other issues people face usually
Speaker 1: built around industries like Geelong car manufacturing, then it closes down.
Speaker 2: Then it happened same with doved and whereas.
Speaker 1: These were quite unique in that they never had industry
Speaker 1: near them, and so people were just kind of thrown
Speaker 1: out to the ends of the earth and just left
Speaker 1: to fend for themselves. Often before the garbage trucks had
Speaker 1: worked out the roots head or the buses had access,
Speaker 1: so they were kind of left out there and that
Speaker 1: kind of set the identity of us against the world,
Speaker 1: and so any people who come in to try and
Speaker 1: help or support are often viewed with suspicions. So the
Speaker 1: model of moving into the community was quite a radical
Speaker 1: one at the time, even in the eyes of the community.
Speaker 1: I remember one lady we met really early on said oh,
Speaker 1: you'll only last a couple of months he loved. Thankfully,
Speaker 1: we were able to prove her a little bit wrong
Speaker 1: by just kind of putting down roots in that.
Speaker 2: Neighborhood and raising our kids there as well.
Speaker 4: And you took a vow of poverty, correct, How did
Speaker 4: that work?
Speaker 5: We took our poverty before moving to Mount Druitt. So
Speaker 5: we were working in multicultural in the southeast of Melbourne,
Speaker 5: which is where we met.
Speaker 2: What was that.
Speaker 5: Suburb, spring Vale Place? Where we met. Poverty was one
Speaker 5: of the vows that we took, so we took vowser poverty,
Speaker 5: service and obedience. The valve poverty was designed around trying
Speaker 5: to identify as best we could with the communities that
Speaker 5: we lived amongst and served, so that meant that we
Speaker 5: were living on something that was pretty much equivalent to
Speaker 5: centraling plus ten dollars a week. I think I guess
Speaker 5: we wanted to not be set apart too far from
Speaker 5: our neighbors. Notwithstanding the fact that, like when Cam was
Speaker 5: doing The Filthy, Rich and Homeless, we were both university
Speaker 5: educated with middle class families, so we did always know
Speaker 5: that if we chose to we would have an out.
Speaker 5: So from that perspective, there were limits in terms of
Speaker 5: how much we could truly identify.
Speaker 1: But I think another part of that is when you
Speaker 1: want to say a big guest in your life, you've
Speaker 1: got to say a bunch of pretty hard core knows.
Speaker 2: And the way our lifestyle is structured is.
Speaker 1: Around, you know, access, mobility, being able to go anywhere
Speaker 1: at the drop of a hat, so a lot of
Speaker 1: it will pull you away from your main calling in life.
Speaker 1: So we were really passionate about being well known and
Speaker 1: deeply involved in the life of that neighborhood and you know,
Speaker 1: friends ring up, do you want to go out here,
Speaker 1: you want to go do this, you want to do that.
Speaker 1: Let's you know, I've got some tickets to go here.
Speaker 1: And so we had to say a whole lot of
Speaker 1: no's in that way to say a big gyest to
Speaker 1: our community as well.
Speaker 3: I mean Mount Sure, it's a long way from Springvale.
Speaker 3: Was the idea of moving to a northern state to
Speaker 3: really extricate yourself from your families in Melbourne and you
Speaker 3: went to Mount Druid or what was the reason to
Speaker 3: go to Mount Drewt Because you could have gone to
Speaker 3: any state really based on that there. I'm sure that
Speaker 3: these communities exist in every state in Australia.
Speaker 5: We had a fairly big and strong team in Melbourne
Speaker 5: already and so we felt like it was our organization
Speaker 5: was well placed to start something new. We knew people
Speaker 5: in Sydney, so from the point of view of moving
Speaker 5: to a place where there were already support networks in
Speaker 5: place for us, Sydney made sense. And then in terms
Speaker 5: of Mount drew It specifically it was actually Grayham mong
Speaker 5: from the wayside Chapel who introduced us to Mount Drew.
Speaker 5: It so I know the sort of neighborhood you're looking for.
Speaker 5: I'll take you for a drive. And John and I
Speaker 5: made trips up separately and both really strongly went, yep,
Speaker 5: this is where we want to be home.
Speaker 4: And did you did you have your two children already
Speaker 4: at that point or.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, we did so they were quite little.
Speaker 1: Yeah, two and three. When we decided it was Sydney.
Speaker 1: And when we decided it was Bidwell in Mount Drew
Speaker 1: it to go. We packed the car and got in
Speaker 1: the car. We didn't have a place to stay that
Speaker 1: night or any We didn't know anything. We had nothing
Speaker 1: set or planned. We just got in the car and
Speaker 1: went let's go. And it was up the Hume Highway
Speaker 1: that someone rang up and said, oh, would you like
Speaker 1: to use my caravan? And then a couple of hours
Speaker 1: later someone rang up and said, would you like to
Speaker 1: put that caravan in my front yard? I don't know
Speaker 1: where we would have stayed otherwise.
Speaker 3: You're in Mount Dreuert. How was it raising kids in
Speaker 3: that environment?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Look, our kids had no choice. You know, you
Speaker 1: don't have a choice about your parents. And so it
Speaker 1: was always done in a way where we are really
Speaker 1: passionate about making sure that our values aren't just a
Speaker 1: poster on the wall, but they're how we live our lives.
Speaker 1: And so our kids got to see that up close,
Speaker 1: and there was this moment you know, you always question,
Speaker 1: you know, will they go on with this or what
Speaker 1: sorts of people will they become having grown up in
Speaker 1: the environment they have, And there was a moment there
Speaker 1: where I was a chaplain at the local high school,
Speaker 1: was one of my roles, and the police called us
Speaker 1: up and said, one of the students has been assaulted
Speaker 1: quite badly at her home, so can we bring her
Speaker 1: over to your place. She wants to come to your
Speaker 1: place because she knew Lisa as well, and it was
Speaker 1: just a d I think our kids were checking a
Speaker 1: fake SICKI. So they were there, and normally we tried
Speaker 1: to keep a lot of that stuff separate. We had
Speaker 1: an end of the house that was separated from the rest,
Speaker 1: from the hospitality space, and as the police brought her in,
Speaker 1: our kids saw her. They knew her. She was about sixteen.
Speaker 1: Our kids were about seven and six at the time,
Speaker 1: and immediately one of our kids, who's all cuddly went
Speaker 1: up to her and just started stroking her arm, and
Speaker 1: the other one went straight to the toaster and chucked
Speaker 1: two bits of toast on and madly spread it and
Speaker 1: brought it out. And they said.
Speaker 2: Ah, Leice, look there us.
Speaker 1: You know you're the tender, loving, caressing care and I'm
Speaker 1: just shoving veggimie down their threat, you know. And it's
Speaker 1: just that's who they were really as well. One was
Speaker 1: very touchy feeling and the other one was very practical
Speaker 1: what he would need in this moment. And just to
Speaker 1: see that come together in this act of loving care
Speaker 1: was such a really powerful moment of seeing how you
Speaker 1: lived out values often bring out the best in not
Speaker 1: only in others, but in your kids too.
Speaker 3: Without a doubt, it's a bit like what you're saying
Speaker 3: Lisa before that love is a verb, it's an action.
Speaker 3: And do you think that our kids pay more attention
Speaker 3: to what we do than what we say?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, when we were dating, she said to me,
Speaker 1: once you know who you are, shout so loudly in
Speaker 1: my ears, I can't hear what you say. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a weird thing to say on a second date,
Speaker 1: but I thought, you know, there's a She's a fascinating creature,
Speaker 1: this one.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Were you always completely aligned on like this is yes,
Speaker 4: this is exactly what we want to do, or one
Speaker 4: of you more reticent the other, or you were just
Speaker 4: gung ho.
Speaker 5: I think we've been pretty fortunate actually, and that we've
Speaker 5: always been pretty well aligned. So we were aligned about
Speaker 5: the work that we wanted to do in Melbourne, and
Speaker 5: then when we were ready to move, we were aligned
Speaker 5: about making the move to Sydney. Yeah. And I guess
Speaker 5: when it was time for us to leave Mount drew
Speaker 5: It as well, we were aligned about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So how many years were you in Mount drew It?
Speaker 1: I think it was about ten all up, you know
Speaker 1: when we counted more. But we've never been out of
Speaker 1: line in terms of what we've wanted in our values.
Speaker 1: And that's the kind of advice I give to people.
Speaker 1: What's that in that work out what you want to
Speaker 1: do in life? Yeah, and go and do it and
Speaker 1: then you're along that way you'll meet people.
Speaker 2: Who have the same values as you.
Speaker 1: And so we didn't need to have, you know, in
Speaker 1: those dating conversations where you're like, what do you like?
Speaker 2: What do you like? What do you like doing? When
Speaker 2: you do it. We already knew all that stuff about
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 1: We were both passionately committed to making this world a
Speaker 1: better place, and to the point where when you said
Speaker 1: let's have our honeymoon in Calcutta at Mother Teresa's Home
Speaker 1: for the dying, went yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2: And that's what happened. Did you do it there? We did?
Speaker 1: Because Lisa said, it's not just boy meets girl, falls
Speaker 1: in love and sails off into the sunset. It's two
Speaker 1: people who were passionate about changing the world are brought together,
Speaker 1: and you know, we start our married life the way
Speaker 1: we want to continue it. And so, you know, off
Speaker 1: to the slums of Calcutta and working in the orphanage
Speaker 1: in the afternoons and the home for the Dying in
Speaker 1: the mornings, and that was a real foundation stone for
Speaker 1: of how we wanted to live our lives together, and
Speaker 1: it was I'll tell you. I'll also make a little
Speaker 1: confession is we've never lived alone together.
Speaker 2: We haven't.
Speaker 1: No, We've always had someone living in our house and
Speaker 1: then then we had our own kids as well, so
Speaker 1: we've never just had any couple of years of just
Speaker 1: me and Lisa. So we are actually getting that opportunity
Speaker 1: in the first week of September. We'll be for the
Speaker 1: first time in we've been together twenty five years. The
Speaker 1: first I remember, we came from honeymoon and we were
Speaker 1: running a house for ten asylum seekers and that was
Speaker 1: and it never really stopped.
Speaker 2: You know, We've had heaps of people. But you know,
Speaker 2: we'll we can't wait, seriously really, because I.
Speaker 4: Can imagine you two just continuing type on your doors
Speaker 4: the way you.
Speaker 2: Travel two days and.
Speaker 5: We're moving into a tiny place, so that would help, right.
Speaker 1: We've still got to couch and a bit of hospitality
Speaker 1: will be a bit caught to who we are.
Speaker 2: But you know, just the two of us, we we
Speaker 2: can't wait. We're tickled, is there? I mean, do you
Speaker 2: really always agree? Do you have a way of working
Speaker 2: things out? Like I'm sure you barrack fast? You look
Speaker 2: like an Essendon John's I'm getting from one of you?
Speaker 2: Who do you follow?
Speaker 5: Used to be cut but now it's g w S.
Speaker 2: I think, oh okay, because they're in the west of Sydney.
Speaker 2: So how does that go?
Speaker 3: When g WS play Essendon and the fact that the
Speaker 3: bombs How.
Speaker 2: Good was that when g WS after what they did
Speaker 2: to us.
Speaker 1: Last we could do ten podcasts on and yeah, Essendon
Speaker 1: and it's not many people I meeting Sydney you want
Speaker 1: to talk about it?
Speaker 2: You've met the person. Are you an ES fan? No, yes,
Speaker 2: we both are.
Speaker 3: So that was the thing, you know, when we met
Speaker 3: our Sydney girl on Melbourne and footy was always such
Speaker 3: a big thing in our family and growing up and
Speaker 3: played it and stuff. And then so yeah, back to
Speaker 3: you guys, is there something that you do to come
Speaker 3: together when you actually do see things a little differently
Speaker 3: or you're telling me that you really don't see anything differently.
Speaker 5: I mean sometimes we do, of course sometimes we do. Thankfully,
Speaker 5: It's never been the big things. And I think if
Speaker 5: you're aligned on the big things, you can work the
Speaker 5: little things out.
Speaker 1: So the first couple of years of marriage, you know,
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of negotiation and navigation and you know,
Speaker 1: even learning how to share a bed. So because we
Speaker 1: hadn't lived together until that point, I remember that. Do
Speaker 1: you remember that first time we were living in was
Speaker 1: it Regent Street? And one of the guys from Africa
Speaker 1: was so cold he was he was wanting to come
Speaker 1: into our room with us just to warm up. I mean,
Speaker 1: poor guy. He's come from you know, from Africa to Melbourne, Melbourne,
Speaker 1: we need d Yeah.
Speaker 2: He's just like, what's going on? How did jump? How
Speaker 2: did that? What was that conversation? Like that? We're pretty
Speaker 2: open to anything, but yeah, not that. So yeah, that
Speaker 2: brings back some memories they've got.
Speaker 1: They've all gone on to get permanent residents that are
Speaker 1: doing amazing things in this country, including one of them
Speaker 1: who has a kid who nearly won Australian Idol a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago as well.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's doing really really well.
Speaker 4: Now you you have your two biological children, but you've
Speaker 4: also adopted a girl at Quine of an older age. Right,
Speaker 4: how did you come to meet her and how did
Speaker 4: that come about?
Speaker 5: Chadsey was one of our u S group kids. Okay
Speaker 5: and pretty special kids. We're full of life and energy
Speaker 5: and lots of energy and used to spend a fair
Speaker 5: bit of time at our house. Got along well with
Speaker 5: our children. Through meeting her, we got to know her
Speaker 5: mum and sadly her mom was dying, so she actually
Speaker 5: asked whether after she passed away we'd be able to
Speaker 5: have Jazzy as part of our family. So yeah, she
Speaker 5: was fifteen when she moved in sixteen when her mom
Speaker 5: passed away, stayed with us till she was eighteen, moved
Speaker 5: out with a partner, came back as they do so
Speaker 5: and she's thirty now right now.
Speaker 1: Even that conversation, Lisa came home, she said, I've just
Speaker 1: been at Karen's house and Karen's asked me if we'll
Speaker 1: take Jazz on and so I just assumed that's a yes, then, John,
Speaker 1: And that was pretty much the conversation. Yeah, right, right,
Speaker 1: So we've never really you know, we only really argue
Speaker 1: about directions.
Speaker 2: Car. But and then they invented the maps to a
Speaker 2: ways or Google.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of less arguing in the car.
Speaker 2: No doubt, he said. Of the mailways. Yeah, Gregory's in Sydney.
Speaker 2: On the drive on the passengers said.
Speaker 1: Over, I'm not pretending like we have little Barney's over things.
Speaker 1: And you know, Lisa has this thing she has to
Speaker 1: be exactly on time, and you know, I'm like, it's
Speaker 1: just an estimate when they say twelve o'clock and she's like, no, no,
Speaker 1: we've got to be there. And you know we you know,
Speaker 1: we have those little niggles around that, but we hage
Speaker 1: you the small stuff. Otherwise the big stuff is you know,
Speaker 1: we just go what do we need to do? You
Speaker 1: know to be able to work this thing out?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I love that bligned on the big things, on that
Speaker 3: the mindset. There was a paragraph in one of the
Speaker 3: articles that I that I read. It goes like, besides,
Speaker 3: everything worth stealing has already been stolen. John says, we
Speaker 3: had one woman who robbed us blind cash cameras. Someone
Speaker 3: even took the kids piggybank. Once we know it's a
Speaker 3: good all, but we're still their friends. Who else is
Speaker 3: going to love them? How do you get to that mindset?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 5: Look, I think for me one of the things is
Speaker 5: love isn't a feeling, it's a verb. So it's something
Speaker 5: you do, It's something you choose. In choosing to love people,
Speaker 5: you choose to look for the good in them rather
Speaker 5: than focus on things like whether or not they stole
Speaker 5: your kid's money box. It's not always easy, but choosing
Speaker 5: to engage with people and find commonality and see the
Speaker 5: good in them and receive from them too, I think
Speaker 5: has been really important for us.
Speaker 1: For you, embody that you know the way you love
Speaker 1: people and you have a really beautiful, loving, accepting, non
Speaker 1: judgmental presence in people's lives. So they often feel very
Speaker 1: comfortable to be open with you very quickly. Actually, So
Speaker 1: that's how we've always kind of worked well together in
Speaker 1: that kind of context. Is So she's like Terry Danna
Speaker 1: her om like Alan is art.
Speaker 2: So she.
Speaker 3: Okay, so for everyone else in Australia, So baby bombers
Speaker 3: in the middle of the eighties, Terry Danner who was
Speaker 3: the center half back, so he was a strong, solid support.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Alan's is a rover. He just runs around
Speaker 1: and creates chaos in the space. So that's what I do.
Speaker 1: So that's how we work.
Speaker 2: We've always worked that way. I get him, I bring
Speaker 2: him home, and then Lisa loves them prettier than Alan.
Speaker 2: You respect you Alanie's art.
Speaker 1: If you're listening, absolutely well, you know, a little ginger
Speaker 1: haird little we've been just running around. But you know
Speaker 1: that's sorry, that's that's a silly and allergy. You know,
Speaker 1: Lisa role bring the party, but you know Lisa will.
Speaker 5: Make things fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah that's right. And yeah, so I bring the fun,
Speaker 2: but Lisa brings the love and care.
Speaker 4: Okay, you've seen some experience is no doubt of people
Speaker 4: at their lowest point. Do you get burnout? And if
Speaker 4: you do, does your mental health ever get affected? And
Speaker 4: is there something that you do for yourselves that really
Speaker 4: helps every time or all the time.
Speaker 5: Well, having listened to your podcast, I know that your
Speaker 5: big believers in therapy. Absolutely, yeah, and so we Yeah,
Speaker 5: that's been something that's been really important for us. I
Speaker 5: think I see someone every week, so there's that space
Speaker 5: always to be able to process things as they arise
Speaker 5: rather than needing to wait. We didn't always have those
Speaker 5: people in our lives, and I think that was to
Speaker 5: add detriment. Yeah, I think we're much healthier people now
Speaker 5: that we do.
Speaker 2: So do you do therapy too, Well?
Speaker 1: Yes, I have a lot of therapy, So I came
Speaker 1: late to the party. Yeah, but you know, having a
Speaker 1: family that's quite neuro diverse, that also has struggles with
Speaker 1: anxiety and depression and bipolar as well as ADHD, you know,
Speaker 1: the whole mix is learning to navigate that world requires
Speaker 1: therapy and quite a lot of it. So something I've
Speaker 1: been on a journey for for about eight years now.
Speaker 1: But also in my role, I have some clinical support,
Speaker 1: particularly around I'm exposed in my role to a lot
Speaker 1: of pretty raw end of humanity and when something strikes
Speaker 1: that is something I find hard to resolve within myself.
Speaker 1: I don't want to use vulnerable people as my therapist.
Speaker 1: You know, the group is therapists, you know, inappropriately just
Speaker 1: spill out details of stories, so I'll immediately go. You know,
Speaker 1: a friend once said, it's when your pots are boiling
Speaker 1: over and you can't control them, you know, when you
Speaker 1: think slip out of your mouth that really shouldn't. And
Speaker 1: so that's when I go to my clinical therapist and
Speaker 1: say look blue and have to pay for his therapy
Speaker 1: afterwards as well. It's his potheth that boileth over to it.
Speaker 1: I remember once just going well and he said, so
Speaker 1: that's been happening your whole life. I said, no, that
Speaker 1: was last week, just like, oh my goodness. We both
Speaker 1: had very similar experiences very early on around burnout, where
Speaker 1: it was I was running a youth club and there
Speaker 1: was a lot of kids from me steam or who
Speaker 1: was seeking asylum. And at the end of it of
Speaker 1: one session, you know, we just said, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: it's Christmas coming up, what do you wish for? And
Speaker 1: one little girl said, look, I wish that I'm not
Speaker 1: deported because I'm not ready to die. And that was
Speaker 1: a real pivotal moment for me where I said, it's
Speaker 1: not going to be a quick fix. A lot of
Speaker 1: people get into this kind of work expecting to fix people,
Speaker 1: and that's a big part of our philosophy is no
Speaker 1: one's a problem to be solved, they're a person to
Speaker 1: be met. But if you want to see change, it's
Speaker 1: about walking alongside someone. For a long, long, long time,
Speaker 1: we had no promise of reward. So at that moment
Speaker 1: with that young girl, I remember making a promise to
Speaker 1: me self is to say, no matter how hard I
Speaker 1: go and work, I always have to pull myself back
Speaker 1: from the brink because if I burn out, then who's
Speaker 1: going to be there for her? So that was a
Speaker 1: really grounding moment for me in that in that space.
Speaker 1: And you know, I don't think we've ever got We've
Speaker 1: been exhausted, you know often, but once a year I
Speaker 1: will come home and I'll sleep for about twenty hours.
Speaker 1: I don't know, just run out of adrenaline. But it
Speaker 1: kind of keeps us both going. Someone said, you won't
Speaker 1: make poverty history till you make poverty personal, right, and
Speaker 1: till you walk alongside someone and you walk and see
Speaker 1: inside their world and then you and that's what gives
Speaker 1: you the grace and the empathy to be able to
Speaker 1: realize that, you know, people are so different from each other,
Speaker 1: and some have experiences that you know, they just need
Speaker 1: to be held. And as you hold them, they're going
Speaker 1: to push, They're going to test, you know, is this real?
Speaker 1: Do you really love me? Because what about this? And
Speaker 1: what about that? And almost that rejection sensitivity where they'll say,
Speaker 1: I'll push you away before you push me away, and
Speaker 1: they can't really argue with an experience of grace, love
Speaker 1: and forgiveness. And often that's a beautiful thing to be
Speaker 1: able to offer, though it is a it's a radical
Speaker 1: act making the decision to love. And you know, thank
Speaker 1: you for loving me, Lisa.
Speaker 5: That's been my great pleasure.
Speaker 4: Because you've you've been on the end of a few assaults.
Speaker 4: I believe you've had a chair, you know, crunched over
Speaker 4: your head and you've.
Speaker 2: Really done the deep dive around here.
Speaker 4: You have a very good producer to you know, it's
Speaker 4: happened a few times.
Speaker 1: Like you know, when you want to get involved in
Speaker 1: people's lives, you know, you just got to go all
Speaker 1: in right sometimes put your body on the line. And well,
Speaker 1: I'll give you this one story that when I looked
Speaker 1: at you and realized that I couldn't love you anymore
Speaker 1: than I already did. Was Lisa was eight months pregnant
Speaker 1: once and there was the horrible sounds of a domestic
Speaker 1: abuse happening, and between this huge, huge man and his wife,
Speaker 1: at least you just, without hesitating, just ran downstairs from
Speaker 1: our flat to their flat, kind of flung the door.
Speaker 1: It's spilled out into the courtyard and you jumped eight
Speaker 1: months pregnant in between both of them, and you said
Speaker 1: stop because I love you both.
Speaker 2: Oh wow.
Speaker 1: And I was just looking frozen in terror from the
Speaker 1: balcony as this this act of We talk about love
Speaker 1: and changing the world, but it was not until you
Speaker 1: put your body on the line that I saw that
Speaker 1: come come alive. And so when this woman says, you know,
Speaker 1: it's more than a feeling, it's a verb.
Speaker 2: Is a verb. You live it out every day. It's fearful,
Speaker 2: it is that's hot hot. Hey, how do you guys relax?
Speaker 2: What do you do to have fun?
Speaker 5: Trashy TV?
Speaker 1: What do you like?
Speaker 2: We saw an episode Monks season two that you're yes, right, yes, Wayne,
Speaker 2: you are the dodgy Australian photographer Daryl Darryl. That's right,
Speaker 2: Darryl dirtbag.
Speaker 1: He's some weird eryld dirtbag. Don't know, some double de surdo.
Speaker 1: You go to interview us in a couple of days time.
Speaker 1: There is funny how those things turn up. Goggle Box.
Speaker 1: You goggle boxes wants to be on google Box. Banter
Speaker 1: in our house across the TV is hilarious. Our kids
Speaker 1: are some of the wittiest, funniest people.
Speaker 2: I've ever met.
Speaker 4: Are they at all in the same field as either
Speaker 4: of you? Are they interested in doing something in that field?
Speaker 1: Our twenty one year old says that they will never
Speaker 1: do that. Our nineteen year old says, I want to
Speaker 1: do exactly what your mum did, just from a psychologically
Speaker 1: much healthier place than you two.
Speaker 2: Okay, explain, man, what do they look? What have they
Speaker 2: seen that we're not because something You're pretty healthy.
Speaker 1: You too, I think they could see. There's no such
Speaker 1: thing as a completely pure motive coming out of an
Speaker 1: unbroken vessel. You know, we all have brokenness, and that
Speaker 1: was one of the points I wanted to make and
Speaker 1: about our wedding that I remember quite vividly is we
Speaker 1: clearly made the point this isn't two incomplete people completing
Speaker 1: one another. This is two broken people being brought together
Speaker 1: and offering bringing their brokenness to the world. And we
Speaker 1: did that with a ritual of candles and a ceremony there.
Speaker 1: But we just really wanted to push against that you
Speaker 1: complete me, because that is one of the seeds of
Speaker 1: a lot of the gendered violence that we see, is
Speaker 1: this demand for you to be my whole world and
Speaker 1: to be my everything, as opposed to just saying, well,
Speaker 1: you know who are we going to be on the
Speaker 1: road together. So that's kind of a very powerful thing
Speaker 1: that I always remember about the way we've always sought
Speaker 1: to live our lives. That's why we have therapy in it.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. But that's where our kid can also see.
Speaker 1: I think they could see as much of the push
Speaker 1: factors as the pull factors.
Speaker 3: Yeah, do therapy together? Do you do couple therapy?
Speaker 5: We have, Yeah, we're not. At the moment of our.
Speaker 1: Kids ended up in hospital, we realized we needed to
Speaker 1: our marriage to bear a lot of weight, and with
Speaker 1: a few of the diagnoses that they've had. You know,
Speaker 1: if you know, they kind of give you the statistics saying, oh,
Speaker 1: there's a ninety percent divorce rate for couples who have
Speaker 1: raising kids with these kinds of struggles. And so that's
Speaker 1: what was triggering for us to go off and say, look,
Speaker 1: let's do some hard yards now.
Speaker 3: Is that to get on to the same page or
Speaker 3: to really have a third person listening to your different
Speaker 3: point of views?
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was a bit of both. He was really
Speaker 5: helpful in terms of some things about parenting too. I mean,
Speaker 5: when we talk about how we live our life, we
Speaker 5: have always been on the same page in terms of
Speaker 5: how we parent, maybe not always quite so much. So
Speaker 5: we needed a space to do that exploration and to
Speaker 5: get to the point where we could be on the
Speaker 5: same page, because ultimately, apart, it's not helpful for our
Speaker 5: relationship or for our kids if we're not.
Speaker 4: You've both seen a lot of suffering of the human spirit.
Speaker 4: Is there any particular advice that you give to people
Speaker 4: that moves them or helps them the most? Is there
Speaker 4: something that commonly you've done throughout your life that you
Speaker 4: often say?
Speaker 5: No, Probably not anything I say beyond listening and validating
Speaker 5: their emotions and their experience. I think I don't feel
Speaker 5: like I've got any great wisdom. I can in part,
Speaker 5: but I feel like I can listen well and help
Speaker 5: them to know that someone cares about what it is
Speaker 5: that they have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what would you say to that? John? Look, I
Speaker 2: can only think about people. You know.
Speaker 1: I was at a deathbed of a woman who had
Speaker 1: grown up abused all through her life. And you know,
Speaker 1: as she sat there on her deathbed and she had
Speaker 1: leaded to life there she quickly got hooked onto drugs
Speaker 1: because of who she was living with and ended up
Speaker 1: working the streets for many years. And you know, she
Speaker 1: sat on the deathbed she kind of said, father.
Speaker 2: You know, is am I worthy?
Speaker 1: You know, she was really asking those questions, and you know,
Speaker 1: and I just said, Darln, you know there's going to
Speaker 1: be a standing ovation when you walk into heaven tonight.
Speaker 1: And then you know, she looked at me and smiled,
Speaker 1: and for her funeral, we played Pinks, You're fucking perfect
Speaker 1: as she was wheeled in, and you know, it was
Speaker 1: just that moment of beauty and grace and love that
Speaker 1: really filled the room as we all kind of just
Speaker 1: got together to celebrate her life and everything that she
Speaker 1: brought to us in so that pretty much sums up
Speaker 1: the Wayside right there. You know, that's the kind of
Speaker 1: place I joined in. It's a place that we now
Speaker 1: work together there, and it's the kind of place that
Speaker 1: we hope to be able to continue to share that
Speaker 1: love with people who really sorely need it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we do a five minute shower, two.
Speaker 3: Conserving water five minutes. Let's go for the two minute shower.
Speaker 3: Can you guys both answer these questions?
Speaker 4: What do you miss when you're not together chatting?
Speaker 1: She's my anchor, so I often just rattless.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Oh a time in your life that you'd
Speaker 2: like to revisit, well.
Speaker 5: Like a season or a moment, anything, anything. A moment
Speaker 5: was actually us and the two youngest kids. We did
Speaker 5: an evening walk on a volcano in Bali, and I
Speaker 5: remember the conversations we had on the way out and
Speaker 5: on the way back, and it was just us in
Speaker 5: the group with two guides in this great expanse of beauty,
Speaker 5: And if you asked the kids, that was one of
Speaker 5: their best moments as well.
Speaker 1: See, there's a moment I'd like to go back into
Speaker 1: to not do, And there's a moment I'd like to
Speaker 1: go back into, just to check it out. So what
Speaker 1: I would not do is when I was going to
Speaker 1: propose to her in Marriage Road in Mulgrave.
Speaker 2: And we had like an argument over directions. So I
Speaker 2: always was wrong, where are you going? This is not
Speaker 2: off this spring mail road?
Speaker 1: And you saw it was marriage road and I was
Speaker 1: so angry, but I still stopped. I was such a
Speaker 1: jerk when we were dating. Why you stuck around with me?
Speaker 1: And you know then I kind of slowed down and
Speaker 1: then just sped off and drove us home. He drove
Speaker 1: you home, dropped you off, let you go. I would
Speaker 1: like that moment back, you know, I'd redo that. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2: I think we've ever had someone who wants a moment back.
Speaker 4: I think one other time? Really, yeah, I do remember
Speaker 4: one other time.
Speaker 2: I want that moment back. Yeah yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 4: I think someone said the times that I've hurt people,
Speaker 4: oh yeah, yeah, ok, yeah, I get that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But the one I'd like to look was when I
Speaker 1: when we when I proposed to he Ackland Street, we
Speaker 1: recreated our first date, which was at the Ackland Street
Speaker 1: cake shop.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, was it over a cake?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 5: Do you remember the Ackland Special from the Ackland Cake
Speaker 5: Shop on Ackland Street.
Speaker 1: And we recreated our first date and went to some
Speaker 1: Kilda beach and I got down on one knee and
Speaker 1: because we were in the valve poverty, I got down
Speaker 1: one knee and gave you the ring that I got
Speaker 1: out of the forty cent machine.
Speaker 2: And it was but four super Bowls and the four
Speaker 2: super Bowls that I got first. I'm not tight. I
Speaker 2: gave it to you all.
Speaker 4: What's better than that? For supamore?
Speaker 1: And I would probably tell the bloke that just stopped
Speaker 1: really awkwardly right next to us just to keep moving
Speaker 1: to have that moment back. It's a very vivid and
Speaker 1: precious one. Every time we go to Melbourne we pop
Speaker 1: in and get an neck On Special together.
Speaker 4: I love it.
Speaker 2: Final question, describe each other in one word exceptional love personified.
Speaker 2: Oh yep, Well you two. Thank you for gracing us
Speaker 2: with your presence today.
Speaker 3: It's been this has been a really fabulous chat and
Speaker 3: good luck and you know the world, if we can
Speaker 3: clone you fifty times even more, yeah, we'd be.
Speaker 2: In a way better place. So thanks so much for
Speaker 2: coming in.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having us, lovely to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much and great to see you again, John,
Speaker 1: And we're going to talk.
Speaker 2: I can tell that was happening.
Speaker 4: What magical, humble, incredible people they both are. Yeah, and
Speaker 4: we just heard like the tiniest, tiniest amount of their stories.
Speaker 3: And as John was leaving, he said, you know what
Speaker 3: I really do to relax, I watch Essendon football games.
Speaker 2: He loves that.
Speaker 3: I like him even more now. I'm sure we get
Speaker 3: to spent a lot more time together.
Speaker 4: They just like both of them, the work that they've
Speaker 4: done and the kindness that they share and you know
Speaker 4: the impact of the lives that they have made. They
Speaker 4: were just also sharing about a little boy who they
Speaker 4: were there when he was born and he's now has
Speaker 4: a scholarship to a private school in Sydney and they
Speaker 4: also knew his dad before before. Like I mean, just that,
Speaker 4: you know, the rollover of generational impacts of kindness that
Speaker 4: they're making is it's so special.
Speaker 3: Yes, And their commitment to community and growing community, it's
Speaker 3: I had a feeling that we were going to hear
Speaker 3: something different and hear something special.
Speaker 2: We certainly did.
Speaker 3: Their unique and like I said, I figured clone them
Speaker 3: or all of us embody a little bit more of
Speaker 3: what they're, Yeah, just a little bit of what they're
Speaker 3: they're they're extolling with something inte wonderful.
Speaker 2: We will catch up with you listener next time in
Speaker 2: on Separate Bathroom.
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.