1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appoja Production. 2 00:00:10,721 --> 00:00:14,441 Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series. 3 00:00:14,681 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 2: This series, we launch into the new world of brave leadership. 4 00:00:18,601 --> 00:00:20,721 Speaker 3: Happy people create happy businesses. 5 00:00:20,561 --> 00:00:24,241 Speaker 2: True emotionally intelligent leadership. I picked up vomit once on 6 00:00:24,241 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: our about our fourth flight and everybody felt, well, if 7 00:00:26,641 --> 00:00:28,401 Speaker 2: it's good enough for him, I can do it now. 8 00:00:28,481 --> 00:00:31,081 Speaker 1: We will be joined by culture and leadership. 9 00:00:30,641 --> 00:00:35,001 Speaker 2: Experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us 10 00:00:35,081 --> 00:00:37,601 Speaker 2: the truth behind their brave leadership journeys. 11 00:00:37,921 --> 00:00:40,161 Speaker 1: Today I'm speaking with Mick Willing APM. 12 00:00:40,361 --> 00:00:44,001 Speaker 2: For those unfamiliar, the APM stands for Australian Police Medal, 13 00:00:44,241 --> 00:00:46,601 Speaker 2: one of the highest honors awarded to police officers for 14 00:00:46,681 --> 00:00:49,761 Speaker 2: distinguished service and leadership. Mixed career has taken him from 15 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,281 Speaker 2: growing up in Dubbo, New South Wales to becoming commander 16 00:00:52,281 --> 00:00:56,201 Speaker 2: of the Homicide Squad, Assistant Commissioner for Caniterrorism and ultimately 17 00:00:56,241 --> 00:00:59,641 Speaker 2: Deputy Commissioner for Regional New South Wales, overseeing thousands of 18 00:00:59,641 --> 00:01:02,481 Speaker 2: offices across the state. He also led the state's recovery 19 00:01:02,521 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: coordination during the Black Summer Bushfires, one of the toughest 20 00:01:05,481 --> 00:01:08,761 Speaker 2: leadership assignments imaginable. Since leaving policing, Mek has taken on 21 00:01:08,801 --> 00:01:11,681 Speaker 2: senior roles in the private sector, founded his own leadership 22 00:01:11,721 --> 00:01:15,041 Speaker 2: and advisory firm, and now serves as CEO of Fortum Australia, 23 00:01:15,241 --> 00:01:18,161 Speaker 2: supporting the mental health and transition of first responders. His 24 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,481 Speaker 2: journey is one of courage, reinvention and authentic leadership. 25 00:01:21,521 --> 00:01:23,441 Speaker 1: And I'm very excited to have you here today, Mick. 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,881 Speaker 3: Welcome, Thank you for having me eam. It's lovely to 27 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:26,481 Speaker 3: be talking to you. 28 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,241 Speaker 1: There was so much to say, Mick, I just had 29 00:01:28,241 --> 00:01:29,121 Speaker 1: to cherry pick. 30 00:01:29,881 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 3: I hope I live up to the way you've described it. Yeah. Look, 31 00:01:33,441 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 3: I've been privileged to have a to this point, a really, 32 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 3: really rich and rewarding career working with great Yeah. 33 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:39,161 Speaker 1: It's funny. 34 00:01:39,521 --> 00:01:41,801 Speaker 2: Sometimes I get recommended people to enter you and I 35 00:01:41,881 --> 00:01:43,441 Speaker 2: go and do my research and so forth. 36 00:01:43,481 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: And if I had done that without meeting. 37 00:01:45,601 --> 00:01:47,921 Speaker 2: You, I would have all these ideas in my head 38 00:01:47,961 --> 00:01:50,041 Speaker 2: about who you might be and how you might show up. 39 00:01:50,081 --> 00:01:53,321 Speaker 2: And yet I've met you without knowing all this and 40 00:01:53,521 --> 00:01:56,201 Speaker 2: just been blown away by your level of authenticity, and 41 00:01:56,401 --> 00:01:58,361 Speaker 2: just for a very short space of time, I'm like, 42 00:01:58,361 --> 00:02:00,121 Speaker 2: you're somebody I could ring about anything I think, and 43 00:02:00,121 --> 00:02:01,521 Speaker 2: I think that's a huge testament. 44 00:02:01,241 --> 00:02:03,761 Speaker 3: To your character. That's really humbling. And thank you so 45 00:02:03,881 --> 00:02:05,761 Speaker 3: much for saying that. I could say exact same thing 46 00:02:05,801 --> 00:02:06,001 Speaker 3: to you. 47 00:02:06,361 --> 00:02:07,441 Speaker 1: Oh thank you. 48 00:02:07,441 --> 00:02:08,721 Speaker 2: You were born in Dubbo, so you're a bit of 49 00:02:08,721 --> 00:02:10,761 Speaker 2: a country boy. So what was life like in a 50 00:02:10,761 --> 00:02:14,081 Speaker 2: country town? Did you always picture yourself leaving or you know, 51 00:02:14,121 --> 00:02:15,641 Speaker 2: what was early childhood like there? 52 00:02:16,081 --> 00:02:19,201 Speaker 3: I love Dubbo in regional New South Wales. It is 53 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,961 Speaker 3: who I am at my core. So I grew up 54 00:02:22,001 --> 00:02:24,521 Speaker 3: in West Dubbo to a you know, I guess, lower 55 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 3: middle class family, good people, good strong values. I have 56 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,201 Speaker 3: one sister who's three years younger than me, who is 57 00:02:31,361 --> 00:02:34,241 Speaker 3: I love deally, She's excellent. It was good. It was 58 00:02:34,321 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 3: that old cliche of being able to leave the front 59 00:02:37,561 --> 00:02:39,721 Speaker 3: door of the house, you know, when the sun came up, 60 00:02:39,761 --> 00:02:41,561 Speaker 3: and come back when the sun came down, you know, 61 00:02:41,601 --> 00:02:44,201 Speaker 3: and leave your life pretty free. So I went to 62 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 3: school out there, infants, primary and secondary school out there, 63 00:02:47,921 --> 00:02:50,041 Speaker 3: you know, in terms of what I wanted to do 64 00:02:50,121 --> 00:02:52,801 Speaker 3: and whether or not I saw myself leaving town, I 65 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,481 Speaker 3: guess in some ways, yes, growing up I had sort 66 00:02:55,481 --> 00:02:58,401 Speaker 3: of two passions or two things that I wanted to do, 67 00:02:58,481 --> 00:03:01,961 Speaker 3: and the first one being an archaeologist. Too many Indiana 68 00:03:02,041 --> 00:03:04,641 Speaker 3: Jones movies in the heaties and I still to this 69 00:03:04,721 --> 00:03:07,881 Speaker 3: day enjoy history and archaeology as well. But so that 70 00:03:08,041 --> 00:03:10,961 Speaker 3: was one option and the second option was to be 71 00:03:11,121 --> 00:03:14,681 Speaker 3: a detective. So when I left school, I went to 72 00:03:14,721 --> 00:03:16,681 Speaker 3: the University of New England for a short period of 73 00:03:16,721 --> 00:03:20,601 Speaker 3: time and started to study archaeology. And it was after 74 00:03:20,721 --> 00:03:23,001 Speaker 3: being there for a short period of time where I 75 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,721 Speaker 3: you know, this is nineteen ninety you know, I was 76 00:03:25,881 --> 00:03:29,121 Speaker 3: at a library in Armadale studying something and I remember 77 00:03:29,161 --> 00:03:31,841 Speaker 3: thinking to myself, how many archaeologists are you know, and 78 00:03:32,361 --> 00:03:34,961 Speaker 3: back then, you know, there wasn't that many. Now, well, 79 00:03:35,041 --> 00:03:37,281 Speaker 3: you know, I'm going to go home and try and 80 00:03:37,521 --> 00:03:39,681 Speaker 3: join the New clais Police Force. And that's ultimately what 81 00:03:39,721 --> 00:03:40,081 Speaker 3: I did. 82 00:03:40,161 --> 00:03:42,841 Speaker 2: And hang on, there's obviously a link here, because you know, archaeology, 83 00:03:42,881 --> 00:03:45,601 Speaker 2: you're wanting to investigate and study the history in the 84 00:03:45,641 --> 00:03:48,761 Speaker 2: past and make logic of something which is not dissimilar 85 00:03:48,761 --> 00:03:49,961 Speaker 2: to like a role of a detective. 86 00:03:50,241 --> 00:03:52,761 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I think in some ways, yes, I think 87 00:03:52,761 --> 00:03:54,721 Speaker 3: the link for me was, you know, watching too much 88 00:03:54,761 --> 00:03:58,961 Speaker 3: television in the eighties. You know, yeah one shows in 89 00:03:58,961 --> 00:04:01,761 Speaker 3: Indiana Jones movies. But yeah, I had this sort of passion. 90 00:04:01,801 --> 00:04:03,721 Speaker 3: I'd grow on up playing a fair bit of golf 91 00:04:03,761 --> 00:04:06,801 Speaker 3: and other sports out I was a kid, and I 92 00:04:06,841 --> 00:04:10,641 Speaker 3: remember a person that I met in my teens was 93 00:04:10,681 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 3: the local chief of detectives in the News of OL's 94 00:04:13,721 --> 00:04:15,841 Speaker 3: Police Force. And it was somebody that I took a 95 00:04:15,841 --> 00:04:17,641 Speaker 3: shine to and looked up to and thought, wow, that 96 00:04:17,721 --> 00:04:20,241 Speaker 3: might be a bad career, and so that kind of 97 00:04:20,601 --> 00:04:23,241 Speaker 3: spurred me to grow an interest in that area. So 98 00:04:23,281 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 3: I came back to Dubbo for a short time and 99 00:04:26,481 --> 00:04:29,121 Speaker 3: then applied for the News of OL's Police Force and 100 00:04:29,241 --> 00:04:31,801 Speaker 3: joined in October nineteen ninety, a long time ago. 101 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,481 Speaker 2: Now, obviously you've got that starting off in local policing, 102 00:04:34,841 --> 00:04:37,041 Speaker 2: but then obviously your career transitions into some of the 103 00:04:37,081 --> 00:04:39,001 Speaker 2: most high state operations in New South Wales. 104 00:04:39,041 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: So how quickly did that pathway kind of open up 105 00:04:41,561 --> 00:04:41,721 Speaker 1: for you? 106 00:04:42,201 --> 00:04:45,481 Speaker 3: I went through the police academy six months, in my words, 107 00:04:45,521 --> 00:04:48,441 Speaker 3: tipped out on the streets of Miner West in Sydney. 108 00:04:48,921 --> 00:04:50,481 Speaker 3: Was nineteen years old when I came out of the 109 00:04:50,481 --> 00:04:53,361 Speaker 3: police academy, just to nineteen and you know, you really 110 00:04:53,401 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: see some confronting things as a young police officer. My 111 00:04:56,841 --> 00:04:59,881 Speaker 3: mates from Dubbo all sort of moved to Sydney and 112 00:04:59,921 --> 00:05:01,961 Speaker 3: we're all living together, and you know, they were going 113 00:05:02,001 --> 00:05:04,801 Speaker 3: to university and doing other things, and I would come 114 00:05:04,841 --> 00:05:07,881 Speaker 3: home and just with these stories that would just blow 115 00:05:07,961 --> 00:05:10,761 Speaker 3: their socks off about some of the things that you saw. 116 00:05:10,921 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: But I quickly started to pursue my aim of becoming 117 00:05:14,921 --> 00:05:18,881 Speaker 3: a detective and tried to impress the local detectives that 118 00:05:18,921 --> 00:05:22,161 Speaker 3: I work with, and eventually got a start in a 119 00:05:22,281 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 3: very small detective's office at Angal and really tried to 120 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,761 Speaker 3: work hard. Back then, it was almost a competition about 121 00:05:28,761 --> 00:05:31,121 Speaker 3: the amount of criminals that you could arrest and charge 122 00:05:31,161 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 3: and those sort of things, so I really enjoyed that. 123 00:05:34,361 --> 00:05:38,481 Speaker 3: But I had a mentor in the detective arena, a 124 00:05:38,561 --> 00:05:40,561 Speaker 3: guy who had spent a lot of time in what 125 00:05:40,761 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 3: was the criminal Investigation branch homicide squad, and so I 126 00:05:43,961 --> 00:05:46,921 Speaker 3: started to go, well, you know, homicide is a really 127 00:05:47,801 --> 00:05:52,721 Speaker 3: deeply moralistic part policing, and I started to get a 128 00:05:52,761 --> 00:05:55,801 Speaker 3: really interest in it, and very quickly as I went 129 00:05:55,801 --> 00:05:59,281 Speaker 3: in the plane close, I ended up working with some 130 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:04,601 Speaker 3: major figures in policing on some homicides. Solidified at my 131 00:06:05,401 --> 00:06:08,481 Speaker 3: desire to eventually go to the homicide squad because it 132 00:06:08,561 --> 00:06:10,841 Speaker 3: was seen as the top of the top, the elite 133 00:06:10,841 --> 00:06:15,161 Speaker 3: of the elite, and so being designated as a detective 134 00:06:15,161 --> 00:06:18,121 Speaker 3: in ninety ninety seven, I was lucky enough to come 135 00:06:18,161 --> 00:06:22,161 Speaker 3: first in my detective's course, and back then it was 136 00:06:22,201 --> 00:06:26,601 Speaker 3: seen as a pathway into the top areas like homicide 137 00:06:26,961 --> 00:06:29,841 Speaker 3: or even prosecution, you know, those sort of things. So 138 00:06:30,081 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: I quickly tried that path into the Homicide and Serial 139 00:06:33,841 --> 00:06:37,361 Speaker 3: Violent Crime Agency and was lucky enough to work on 140 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,121 Speaker 3: some pretty interesting cases. I then went to the News 141 00:06:40,121 --> 00:06:44,721 Speaker 3: Sol's Crime Commission and continued to work on some homicides 142 00:06:44,961 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 3: and organized crime related matters. And so my pathway forward 143 00:06:49,921 --> 00:06:54,281 Speaker 3: was never one where I actively sought out promotion or 144 00:06:54,281 --> 00:06:56,041 Speaker 3: anything like that. I just wanted to work in the 145 00:06:56,081 --> 00:06:58,961 Speaker 3: areas that I wanted to work in. Homicide was one 146 00:06:59,001 --> 00:07:02,161 Speaker 3: of them. You know. I became interested in doing long 147 00:07:02,201 --> 00:07:04,761 Speaker 3: distance triathlons. I'm in triathlons, you know, back in the 148 00:07:04,841 --> 00:07:07,761 Speaker 3: late nineties and things like that. I go to Dubba 149 00:07:08,001 --> 00:07:10,481 Speaker 3: and do a fair bit of training, and that kind 150 00:07:10,521 --> 00:07:12,881 Speaker 3: of spurred a desire in me to experience what it 151 00:07:12,921 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 3: was like policing back in my hometown. And so in 152 00:07:15,761 --> 00:07:17,681 Speaker 3: two thousand and two I came to Duba, I went 153 00:07:17,721 --> 00:07:18,361 Speaker 3: back out to Dubble. 154 00:07:18,481 --> 00:07:19,441 Speaker 1: Yeah right, I. 155 00:07:19,361 --> 00:07:21,361 Speaker 2: Mean, obviously you're saying, it's not that you had this. 156 00:07:21,841 --> 00:07:23,361 Speaker 2: I have to be at the top. I have to 157 00:07:23,361 --> 00:07:25,961 Speaker 2: get the top role. You just obviously really enjoy what 158 00:07:26,001 --> 00:07:27,521 Speaker 2: you did. So but what was it about what you 159 00:07:27,841 --> 00:07:29,881 Speaker 2: do you reckon in the early days that gave you 160 00:07:29,921 --> 00:07:30,401 Speaker 2: that pathway? 161 00:07:30,401 --> 00:07:32,001 Speaker 1: Why did people promote you? What was it that you 162 00:07:32,041 --> 00:07:33,721 Speaker 1: were bringing to the table that other people weren't. 163 00:07:33,881 --> 00:07:37,521 Speaker 3: I think early on I developed a reputation pretty quickly 164 00:07:37,521 --> 00:07:41,201 Speaker 3: as somebody who would do extra study. I would do 165 00:07:41,281 --> 00:07:44,521 Speaker 3: things I guess above and beyond what some other people 166 00:07:44,601 --> 00:07:46,601 Speaker 3: were doing. I had this saying in my mind all 167 00:07:46,641 --> 00:07:48,841 Speaker 3: the time, like, don't be one of the sheep, you know, 168 00:07:48,921 --> 00:07:51,561 Speaker 3: create your own path. And so when I was studying 169 00:07:51,841 --> 00:07:54,361 Speaker 3: coming out of the detective's course, I want a scholarship 170 00:07:54,401 --> 00:07:57,801 Speaker 3: to study criminology at Sydney University. And so I continue 171 00:07:57,841 --> 00:08:00,081 Speaker 3: to do these things. So I'd work my shift in 172 00:08:00,161 --> 00:08:03,601 Speaker 3: playing clothes, and then I'd hang around and continue doing study. 173 00:08:03,921 --> 00:08:07,201 Speaker 3: I can work on a time. People saw that I 174 00:08:07,281 --> 00:08:09,681 Speaker 3: think and mix one of those people who will go 175 00:08:09,721 --> 00:08:11,681 Speaker 3: that extra mile, and that's what I think. I mean, 176 00:08:11,721 --> 00:08:13,641 Speaker 3: you have to ask others what they sort of thought bout. 177 00:08:13,721 --> 00:08:16,161 Speaker 2: I think it's great advice, especially for young listeners, around 178 00:08:16,161 --> 00:08:18,121 Speaker 2: the fact that no matter what job you're in, no 179 00:08:18,161 --> 00:08:20,521 Speaker 2: matter what level it's, doing the best that you can 180 00:08:20,561 --> 00:08:22,601 Speaker 2: do with that job, be excellent to that job and 181 00:08:23,081 --> 00:08:25,201 Speaker 2: always looking for that growth, because otherwise, to your point, 182 00:08:25,241 --> 00:08:26,881 Speaker 2: how do you stand out for everybody else? Right, if 183 00:08:26,921 --> 00:08:28,361 Speaker 2: you're not pushing yourself that a little bit further. So 184 00:08:28,361 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: I think that's great. I mean, the homicide squad puts 185 00:08:31,361 --> 00:08:35,001 Speaker 2: leaders in situations of constant trauma and grief, right, yet 186 00:08:35,561 --> 00:08:38,881 Speaker 2: you come across it with such positivity and optimism. And 187 00:08:38,921 --> 00:08:41,601 Speaker 2: I say this because in my limited exposure to people 188 00:08:41,601 --> 00:08:43,281 Speaker 2: in the police force, and I've had a couple of people, 189 00:08:43,641 --> 00:08:46,321 Speaker 2: I've seen the impact that even being on the beat 190 00:08:46,321 --> 00:08:49,161 Speaker 2: police and can do mentally, the challenges that you face 191 00:08:49,201 --> 00:08:52,601 Speaker 2: and the constant negativity. I am fascinated how you could 192 00:08:52,641 --> 00:08:55,441 Speaker 2: work at that level. How have you managed to stay 193 00:08:55,481 --> 00:08:56,121 Speaker 2: the way you are? 194 00:08:56,361 --> 00:08:58,881 Speaker 3: Purpose That's a word that's thrown out a lot, but 195 00:08:58,921 --> 00:09:01,641 Speaker 3: I've always been driven by purpose. I actually think it 196 00:09:01,681 --> 00:09:04,801 Speaker 3: comes back to my upbringing a Dubbo, you know, and 197 00:09:04,881 --> 00:09:07,681 Speaker 3: how how proud I was to come out of Dubbo 198 00:09:07,761 --> 00:09:10,561 Speaker 3: and actually start to succeed in life in different ways. 199 00:09:11,161 --> 00:09:13,881 Speaker 3: You're right, you know, homicide and policing in general brings 200 00:09:13,921 --> 00:09:16,161 Speaker 3: with it a lot of consequences, a lot of trauma 201 00:09:16,201 --> 00:09:20,041 Speaker 3: in some ways, and I feel deeply for you know, 202 00:09:20,081 --> 00:09:21,761 Speaker 3: the men and women who are out there day in 203 00:09:21,801 --> 00:09:24,401 Speaker 3: and day out on the front line in police trucks, 204 00:09:24,561 --> 00:09:27,401 Speaker 3: going to things that you don't know what's around the corner. 205 00:09:27,681 --> 00:09:30,841 Speaker 3: And tragically we've just seen that obviously in Victoria, you know, 206 00:09:30,881 --> 00:09:32,921 Speaker 3: with the murder of two police officers down there in 207 00:09:32,961 --> 00:09:36,961 Speaker 3: recent weeks. These things happen, and so going into something 208 00:09:37,041 --> 00:09:41,161 Speaker 3: like homicide investigation, I think takes a particular type of 209 00:09:41,201 --> 00:09:44,641 Speaker 3: person to do it, somebody who really does it for 210 00:09:44,681 --> 00:09:47,521 Speaker 3: the right reasons and goes into that type of work 211 00:09:47,561 --> 00:09:51,521 Speaker 3: for the right reasons because ultimately, you've been given responsibility 212 00:09:51,601 --> 00:09:54,361 Speaker 3: in those roles for speaking for others who can't speak 213 00:09:54,401 --> 00:09:57,041 Speaker 3: for themselves, So you carry a real deep moral and 214 00:09:57,081 --> 00:10:01,321 Speaker 3: ethical burden in my view now insane that too. There's 215 00:10:01,361 --> 00:10:05,961 Speaker 3: something about working in those roles that is a and 216 00:10:06,561 --> 00:10:08,801 Speaker 3: you know, you work very hard to get to an 217 00:10:08,841 --> 00:10:11,961 Speaker 3: elite position in an organization, and with that comes a 218 00:10:11,961 --> 00:10:14,481 Speaker 3: fair bit of pride and a fair bit of I 219 00:10:14,481 --> 00:10:17,361 Speaker 3: guess internal work ethic that comes with that, because now 220 00:10:17,441 --> 00:10:20,121 Speaker 3: homicide squad. You know, later on I ended up running 221 00:10:20,161 --> 00:10:22,361 Speaker 3: the homicide squad for six years, you know, and it 222 00:10:22,441 --> 00:10:25,121 Speaker 3: was a squad that, despite everything you see and do, 223 00:10:25,921 --> 00:10:31,361 Speaker 3: had hardly any if any sickly because people were just 224 00:10:31,681 --> 00:10:35,201 Speaker 3: part and parcel of a really good, deep ethical culture. 225 00:10:35,361 --> 00:10:38,361 Speaker 2: So I guess in talking about all of that, then yes, purpose, 226 00:10:38,561 --> 00:10:39,361 Speaker 2: I totally agree. 227 00:10:39,361 --> 00:10:41,681 Speaker 1: When you've got a strong purpose, you know why you're there. 228 00:10:41,721 --> 00:10:43,761 Speaker 1: I think your ability to be more resilient to what's 229 00:10:43,801 --> 00:10:44,161 Speaker 1: going on. 230 00:10:44,441 --> 00:10:46,321 Speaker 2: But there must have been some moments that you came 231 00:10:46,361 --> 00:10:47,761 Speaker 2: home and you thought, I don't know if I want 232 00:10:47,761 --> 00:10:48,161 Speaker 2: to do this. 233 00:10:48,201 --> 00:10:49,721 Speaker 1: Did you ever have those days? 234 00:10:49,961 --> 00:10:52,561 Speaker 3: Yeah, like at various points. So you know, I mentioned 235 00:10:52,561 --> 00:10:54,321 Speaker 3: that I went out to Dubbo and I was pretty 236 00:10:54,401 --> 00:10:56,881 Speaker 3: quickly promoted to detective sergeant out there, so I had 237 00:10:56,921 --> 00:11:00,961 Speaker 3: a leadership position in charge of detectives, then detective inspector 238 00:11:01,001 --> 00:11:04,721 Speaker 3: before leaving and eventually becoming a superintendent in other areas 239 00:11:05,201 --> 00:11:07,681 Speaker 3: led me on that path. To becoming the homicide Squad commander. 240 00:11:08,081 --> 00:11:10,441 Speaker 3: But there were points early on in my career and 241 00:11:10,481 --> 00:11:13,561 Speaker 3: at various points throughout my career where I went to 242 00:11:13,681 --> 00:11:17,321 Speaker 3: jobs and did things that absolutely were gobsmacking. And to 243 00:11:17,401 --> 00:11:20,921 Speaker 3: this day, you know, I have vivid memories of certain 244 00:11:21,041 --> 00:11:24,681 Speaker 3: jobs that I went to and it's not necessarily well 245 00:11:24,721 --> 00:11:28,081 Speaker 3: for me anyway. It wasn't necessarily the traumatic scenes and 246 00:11:28,121 --> 00:11:31,881 Speaker 3: those things. It's the emotion that comes with dealing with 247 00:11:32,001 --> 00:11:36,281 Speaker 3: families who have lost loved one more the circumstances where 248 00:11:36,521 --> 00:11:40,001 Speaker 3: you see the impact of horrific events on children, and 249 00:11:40,041 --> 00:11:43,281 Speaker 3: those sorts of things which really resonated deeply with me. 250 00:11:43,481 --> 00:11:46,321 Speaker 3: I remember recorded as a detective inspector at Dubbo with 251 00:11:46,441 --> 00:11:49,361 Speaker 3: We've made of my detective sergeant out there. We just 252 00:11:49,441 --> 00:11:52,161 Speaker 3: happened to go to a job at out near Gilgandra 253 00:11:52,241 --> 00:11:56,401 Speaker 3: where an elderly farmer committed suicide in the drought. I 254 00:11:56,401 --> 00:11:58,921 Speaker 3: won't go into the detail of how because it was 255 00:11:59,001 --> 00:12:02,321 Speaker 3: quite confronting, but he was an eighty year old man 256 00:12:02,401 --> 00:12:05,281 Speaker 3: who had given up hope after all that life and 257 00:12:05,401 --> 00:12:09,721 Speaker 3: left his family and loved ones behind because he saw 258 00:12:09,801 --> 00:12:12,921 Speaker 3: no other option way out of dealing with the challenges 259 00:12:12,961 --> 00:12:17,641 Speaker 3: he was facing with the drought and his farm that 260 00:12:17,721 --> 00:12:21,121 Speaker 3: he'd grown up on his entire life was at risk 261 00:12:21,201 --> 00:12:22,801 Speaker 3: of going. And those are the things and you kind 262 00:12:22,801 --> 00:12:25,241 Speaker 3: of go, wow, you know what is going through that 263 00:12:25,281 --> 00:12:28,521 Speaker 3: person's mind to get to that point. Now later on 264 00:12:28,561 --> 00:12:30,761 Speaker 3: in life, you know, and in the role that I'm 265 00:12:30,801 --> 00:12:35,641 Speaker 3: currently and I deeply understand the traumatic effects of not 266 00:12:35,681 --> 00:12:38,921 Speaker 3: having the best mental well being, traumatic events that occur, 267 00:12:39,241 --> 00:12:42,161 Speaker 3: workplace stresses, and all those different things that play out 268 00:12:42,201 --> 00:12:45,521 Speaker 3: in different individuals lives. So you know, it's a long 269 00:12:45,561 --> 00:12:48,081 Speaker 3: way of saying that, you know, various points about my career, 270 00:12:48,241 --> 00:12:50,841 Speaker 3: I saw and did some things that have left scars 271 00:12:50,881 --> 00:12:52,481 Speaker 3: in me. He's probably the best weapon. 272 00:12:52,721 --> 00:12:54,321 Speaker 1: I don't know, because I don't know how the training works. 273 00:12:54,321 --> 00:12:56,361 Speaker 2: But obviously you're learning a lot of legal things that 274 00:12:56,401 --> 00:12:58,681 Speaker 2: you need to know and obviously processes that you need 275 00:12:58,721 --> 00:13:01,161 Speaker 2: to follow. But a huge part of that role is 276 00:13:01,161 --> 00:13:03,721 Speaker 2: that emotional side, right and the ability to do you 277 00:13:03,721 --> 00:13:06,881 Speaker 2: feel that's equally weighted, and how we train people in 278 00:13:06,921 --> 00:13:07,601 Speaker 2: those roles. 279 00:13:08,001 --> 00:13:11,761 Speaker 3: I think it's getting better. Certainly when I joined in 280 00:13:11,841 --> 00:13:13,921 Speaker 3: terms of dealing with trauma and those sorts of things, 281 00:13:14,001 --> 00:13:16,081 Speaker 3: it was the old cliche you just went to the pub. 282 00:13:17,041 --> 00:13:20,761 Speaker 3: You know, in saying that there is value in getting 283 00:13:20,801 --> 00:13:25,241 Speaker 3: people together in a healthy social setting and talking about 284 00:13:25,281 --> 00:13:28,001 Speaker 3: things and downloading and being able to sort of express 285 00:13:28,041 --> 00:13:30,121 Speaker 3: the way you feel, and those are the things inable 286 00:13:30,201 --> 00:13:32,161 Speaker 3: to allow you to move on. It's like decompressing in 287 00:13:32,201 --> 00:13:35,401 Speaker 3: some way now with the work I'm currently doing right now. 288 00:13:35,481 --> 00:13:38,201 Speaker 3: You know, when I do talk to people and give speeches, 289 00:13:38,321 --> 00:13:41,201 Speaker 3: you know, I emphasize the fact that if you go 290 00:13:41,281 --> 00:13:44,081 Speaker 3: into an emergency service type role or a first responder 291 00:13:44,201 --> 00:13:46,921 Speaker 3: type role, you are going to see and do things 292 00:13:46,921 --> 00:13:49,401 Speaker 3: that are extraordinary. You know that that's why you do it. 293 00:13:49,521 --> 00:13:53,641 Speaker 3: But up front, now, if you proactively invest in your 294 00:13:53,721 --> 00:13:56,841 Speaker 3: own wellbeing and what it is to be healthy throughout 295 00:13:56,881 --> 00:13:59,401 Speaker 3: the course of your career, whether it be physically or mentally, 296 00:13:59,921 --> 00:14:02,841 Speaker 3: you're in a much better position. You can prepare you know, 297 00:14:02,881 --> 00:14:06,041 Speaker 3: you could like investing money in the bank because someday 298 00:14:06,081 --> 00:14:07,841 Speaker 3: you might have to cash it in when you're going 299 00:14:07,881 --> 00:14:10,721 Speaker 3: through a tough time. So being aware of it and 300 00:14:10,841 --> 00:14:13,801 Speaker 3: proactively doing things to make sure that your well being 301 00:14:13,921 --> 00:14:16,481 Speaker 3: is first and foremost is really important. And that's what 302 00:14:16,521 --> 00:14:18,681 Speaker 3: I'd like to see continue to change. 303 00:14:18,921 --> 00:14:21,441 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, not only are you looking after yourself 304 00:14:21,521 --> 00:14:23,241 Speaker 2: during that period and dealing with what comes up. But 305 00:14:23,281 --> 00:14:25,241 Speaker 2: you're also then a leader. By that point in your career, 306 00:14:25,281 --> 00:14:27,321 Speaker 2: you were leading other people. You know, there's a double 307 00:14:27,321 --> 00:14:29,561 Speaker 2: whammy challenge, right, how do you park your own stuff 308 00:14:29,561 --> 00:14:31,161 Speaker 2: and then make sure you're looking after theirs. 309 00:14:31,601 --> 00:14:34,161 Speaker 3: I think it's one of the perennial challenges in not 310 00:14:34,321 --> 00:14:37,361 Speaker 3: just the public sector, but I think all sectors. Leaderships 311 00:14:37,401 --> 00:14:40,641 Speaker 3: are only placed sometimes. I was talking to somebody at 312 00:14:40,681 --> 00:14:43,241 Speaker 3: a charity fundraising event a couple of days ago, and 313 00:14:43,281 --> 00:14:45,801 Speaker 3: we're talking about leadership and the fact that, you know, 314 00:14:46,001 --> 00:14:49,001 Speaker 3: leaders sometimes don't have people they can reach out to 315 00:14:49,121 --> 00:14:52,121 Speaker 3: and talk to. It's very difficult to do it internally 316 00:14:52,201 --> 00:14:56,441 Speaker 3: because of internal politics in some organizations. It's difficult to 317 00:14:56,481 --> 00:14:59,801 Speaker 3: do it externally because sometimes you can't talk about some 318 00:14:59,841 --> 00:15:01,641 Speaker 3: of the things that you do on a day to 319 00:15:01,721 --> 00:15:06,881 Speaker 3: day basis. So I'm quite passionate about helping leaders transition 320 00:15:07,121 --> 00:15:09,321 Speaker 3: or helping leaders deal with the day to day stresses 321 00:15:09,361 --> 00:15:13,881 Speaker 3: that come along, because sometimes, understandably, leaders get a bit 322 00:15:13,921 --> 00:15:16,801 Speaker 3: forgotten as well. They have to take care of the 323 00:15:16,841 --> 00:15:19,441 Speaker 3: people that are around them and under them. Of course 324 00:15:19,521 --> 00:15:23,641 Speaker 3: that's the burden of leadership, but sometimes leaders need their 325 00:15:23,681 --> 00:15:26,161 Speaker 3: own support mechanisms, and I think that that's something that 326 00:15:26,321 --> 00:15:29,561 Speaker 3: society really should focus on a little bit more than 327 00:15:29,601 --> 00:15:30,081 Speaker 3: what it does. 328 00:15:30,361 --> 00:15:32,841 Speaker 2: So obviously a very topical conversation for a lot of 329 00:15:32,841 --> 00:15:35,201 Speaker 2: people is around resilience at the moment, because we're seeing 330 00:15:35,481 --> 00:15:38,041 Speaker 2: rates of burnout higher than we've sort of ever seen before. 331 00:15:38,281 --> 00:15:40,001 Speaker 2: And I know this was a difficult time for you. 332 00:15:40,001 --> 00:15:41,201 Speaker 2: We talk about the fact that you had this very 333 00:15:41,241 --> 00:15:43,881 Speaker 2: big sudden pivot in your life where one moment you 334 00:15:43,961 --> 00:15:47,201 Speaker 2: were Deputy Commissioner, the next minute you were unemployed after 335 00:15:47,241 --> 00:15:50,001 Speaker 2: a very very long and fruitful career. So obviously that 336 00:15:50,121 --> 00:15:52,641 Speaker 2: was a huge moment in your life that I know 337 00:15:52,801 --> 00:15:55,041 Speaker 2: you've done a lot of work from since. So can 338 00:15:55,041 --> 00:15:56,881 Speaker 2: you just sort of briefly talk us through I guess 339 00:15:57,201 --> 00:16:00,441 Speaker 2: that moment, and then how did you even prepare yourself 340 00:16:00,481 --> 00:16:02,041 Speaker 2: for it the potential outcome. 341 00:16:01,761 --> 00:16:03,521 Speaker 1: Or did you even know that was possibly going to happen? 342 00:16:03,841 --> 00:16:06,761 Speaker 3: So I guess in terms of my trajectory in my 343 00:16:06,801 --> 00:16:08,921 Speaker 3: career towards that. You know, I was lucky enough to 344 00:16:08,961 --> 00:16:11,961 Speaker 3: lead the homicide squad for six years, very high profile role, 345 00:16:12,721 --> 00:16:16,321 Speaker 3: lots and lots of famous cases there went to canter terrorism, 346 00:16:16,521 --> 00:16:20,281 Speaker 3: which was a completely different Kellorfish Central metropolitan region. So 347 00:16:20,321 --> 00:16:22,601 Speaker 3: all the big protests, all those sort of major events 348 00:16:22,641 --> 00:16:25,481 Speaker 3: type things. You know, throughout the course of this route 349 00:16:25,481 --> 00:16:28,081 Speaker 3: that I was taking, I started to feel, probably from 350 00:16:28,121 --> 00:16:32,881 Speaker 3: homicide onwards, that I had the potential to go further 351 00:16:33,121 --> 00:16:35,881 Speaker 3: up the totem pole, I guess, and certainly, you know, 352 00:16:35,921 --> 00:16:39,041 Speaker 3: as an Assistant Commissioner at counter Terrorism and Special Tactics, 353 00:16:39,081 --> 00:16:43,481 Speaker 3: I knew that myself, amongst others, were there was an 354 00:16:43,521 --> 00:16:47,881 Speaker 3: investment being made in our career progression and ultimately there 355 00:16:47,881 --> 00:16:50,001 Speaker 3: were some moves made where I knew that I was 356 00:16:50,001 --> 00:16:54,281 Speaker 3: being groomed. You know, I actually had great mentors at 357 00:16:54,281 --> 00:16:56,681 Speaker 3: the top of government as well, and you know I 358 00:16:56,721 --> 00:16:59,681 Speaker 3: was investing in my own progression and started to go, Okay, well, 359 00:16:59,681 --> 00:17:01,561 Speaker 3: if I'm on this train, which is the way I 360 00:17:01,601 --> 00:17:04,041 Speaker 3: describe it, it's pretty hard to get off it, and 361 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,201 Speaker 3: it's going to take me. It takes me. So as 362 00:17:07,201 --> 00:17:10,721 Speaker 3: a Deputy Commissioner, I was involved in crisis Cabinet in 363 00:17:10,721 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 3: New South Wales when COVID eleven am press conferences, you 364 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 3: know those ones that were on every single day. I 365 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 3: wasn't the only one, but I certainly was one of 366 00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:23,961 Speaker 3: two or three people who potentially could become the nissa's 367 00:17:23,961 --> 00:17:26,481 Speaker 3: police commissioner. So in the end of sort of twenty 368 00:17:26,521 --> 00:17:29,001 Speaker 3: twenty two, there was a process run to select a 369 00:17:29,001 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: police commissioner to take over from now former Commissioner Mick Fuller, 370 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 3: who he knew was retiring. Ultimately, I was one of 371 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,001 Speaker 3: three people interviewed for that position, and I was the 372 00:17:39,001 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 3: preferred applicant from the selection panel, which you know, my 373 00:17:42,201 --> 00:17:45,321 Speaker 3: name went up to government for sign off literally as 374 00:17:45,321 --> 00:17:48,281 Speaker 3: a transition was taking place from one premier to another premier. 375 00:17:48,961 --> 00:17:52,241 Speaker 3: As premiers do, they can choose who police commissioners are, 376 00:17:52,281 --> 00:17:56,641 Speaker 3: and ultimately I wasn't chosen despite the panel's recommendation. I mean, 377 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 3: somebody else was chosen. It was disappointing, of course, but 378 00:17:59,721 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 3: you know, I was young enough and thought, well, you know, 379 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,681 Speaker 3: I've invested my entire life into this career and I've 380 00:18:04,721 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: got and you know, I want to get on with 381 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 3: serving the people of New South Wales, in particularly regional 382 00:18:09,441 --> 00:18:11,721 Speaker 3: New South Wales, being a country boy. And ultimately, pretty 383 00:18:11,761 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 3: quickly afterwards, you know, I received a phone call from 384 00:18:14,281 --> 00:18:17,281 Speaker 3: the incoming commissioner saying I've just had your contract terminated. 385 00:18:17,961 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 3: Now I've never spoken about the content of that conversation 386 00:18:21,561 --> 00:18:25,281 Speaker 3: because out of focus respect for the position of commissioner. 387 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:28,561 Speaker 3: But needless to say, it was a conversation that lasted 388 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,801 Speaker 3: less than a minute, and ultimately I went from being 389 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,521 Speaker 3: a deputy police commissioner to being unemployed. You know, a 390 00:18:35,521 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 3: lot of people went, oh, okay, mix, okay, he's got 391 00:18:38,241 --> 00:18:40,281 Speaker 3: a police pension. Well I didn't have a police pension 392 00:18:40,321 --> 00:18:43,121 Speaker 3: because I joined at a time which was a couple 393 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,281 Speaker 3: of years after they scrapped the police pension. So you know, 394 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 3: for me, it was a huge life changing moment. Did 395 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 3: I expect it? Probably not. You know, did I understand 396 00:18:53,201 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 3: that in those roles sometimes those things happen, Yeah, of course. 397 00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 3: But you know, there's ways and means of doing things 398 00:19:00,201 --> 00:19:03,001 Speaker 3: that can impact on a person's well being, you know, 399 00:19:03,201 --> 00:19:05,481 Speaker 3: the rest of their life. And I know, the one 400 00:19:05,481 --> 00:19:08,401 Speaker 3: thing that I've always thought is that, you know, commissioners 401 00:19:08,441 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 3: can choose their team. I have no problem with that, 402 00:19:10,321 --> 00:19:12,521 Speaker 3: and that's life. But there are ways of doing things 403 00:19:12,561 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 3: which could be much better, and I've seen it done. 404 00:19:15,321 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 3: So you know, I went from being a well respected 405 00:19:19,241 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 3: deputy police commissioner who most people thought was going to 406 00:19:22,201 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 3: be the Commissioner to being unemployed, and you know, I 407 00:19:25,681 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 3: remember thinking how do I put my teenage daughters through 408 00:19:30,041 --> 00:19:32,481 Speaker 3: university and school? Like? You know. So there's a couple 409 00:19:32,521 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 3: of things that I did that I'm proud of. And 410 00:19:35,241 --> 00:19:38,521 Speaker 3: one is I connected with a really good CEO transition 411 00:19:38,681 --> 00:19:42,921 Speaker 3: coach through a good friend from the intelligence community, and 412 00:19:43,001 --> 00:19:46,681 Speaker 3: I started to work with that person about really identifying 413 00:19:46,721 --> 00:19:49,561 Speaker 3: who I was and what I wanted to do with 414 00:19:49,721 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 3: the rest of my life. And the second thing that 415 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 3: I did that I am glad that I did was 416 00:19:54,521 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 3: reached out and got some really good support from a 417 00:19:57,241 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 3: top psychologist to deal with what I felt was a 418 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 3: loss of identity, hurt, embarrassment. You know. People asked me 419 00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:06,281 Speaker 3: whether I was angry. I don't think I've ever been 420 00:20:06,321 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 3: angry about it. I was just disappointed because the ramifications 421 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 3: of taking a decision like that weren't just felt by me, 422 00:20:15,041 --> 00:20:17,201 Speaker 3: but they'll felt by a lot of other people as well. 423 00:20:17,481 --> 00:20:19,841 Speaker 2: But I mean, if you had been angry, I mean 424 00:20:19,961 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 2: no one would blame you. And I think it's so 425 00:20:21,481 --> 00:20:23,961 Speaker 2: interesting because anger is one of these emotions that I 426 00:20:24,001 --> 00:20:25,761 Speaker 2: always think of it like a hot rock. If you 427 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,041 Speaker 2: hold on too anger, you're only burning yourself in the 428 00:20:28,041 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: long run, Right, that seems like the approach that you take. 429 00:20:31,241 --> 00:20:33,041 Speaker 2: Where was anger going to get you for too long? 430 00:20:33,321 --> 00:20:35,921 Speaker 2: I mean, that's quite extraordinary. Make I mean, your whole 431 00:20:35,921 --> 00:20:37,521 Speaker 2: life could have gone in a whole different path. You 432 00:20:37,561 --> 00:20:40,121 Speaker 2: could have been in great anger and resentment, and who 433 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:41,201 Speaker 2: knows we'd be right now. 434 00:20:41,241 --> 00:20:42,721 Speaker 1: And it's just it's such. 435 00:20:42,521 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 2: An extreme thing to go through, is it self belief 436 00:20:45,721 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 2: that you had, Like what would you say said at 437 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: the core of why would you pick yourself up and 438 00:20:48,961 --> 00:20:50,561 Speaker 2: make that phone call to the psychologist? 439 00:20:50,561 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 3: And in fact, that was what was being challenged, was 440 00:20:53,481 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 3: my self belief. I thought, hang on, what have I 441 00:20:56,201 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: done wrong? And of course, unfortunately, in an environment like 442 00:21:01,001 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 3: policing and law enforcement environment, rumor and innuendo and gossip 443 00:21:05,441 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 3: being and all that stuff permeates. Right, So for me, 444 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 3: it was front page of national newspapers, it was on 445 00:21:10,481 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 3: every television channel, it was on everything. And I remember 446 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,321 Speaker 3: one of the biggest challenges I had was that I 447 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 3: had to walk into David Jones and by Wallett the 448 00:21:19,721 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 3: thirty plus years had my credit cards and cash in 449 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 3: the back of my horse badge, right, Yeah, So I 450 00:21:25,681 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 3: walked in and I was going how did I end 451 00:21:27,681 --> 00:21:30,521 Speaker 3: up here? It was a really confronting thing. Now in 452 00:21:30,561 --> 00:21:32,721 Speaker 3: saying that I had a really good network of people 453 00:21:32,761 --> 00:21:36,481 Speaker 3: around me, I'd reinvent myself, you know, in terms of Okay, 454 00:21:36,481 --> 00:21:38,201 Speaker 3: what's that mean and what do I want to do? 455 00:21:38,281 --> 00:21:40,761 Speaker 3: And it was a really hard question because yeah, okay, 456 00:21:40,801 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 3: I could go back and be Anianna Jones, but you know, 457 00:21:43,281 --> 00:21:46,001 Speaker 3: my life had changed. I developed different skills. I had 458 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,961 Speaker 3: these experiences that you know a lot of people haven't had, 459 00:21:49,481 --> 00:21:53,961 Speaker 3: including studying internationally and traveling the world in various places. 460 00:21:54,281 --> 00:21:56,401 Speaker 3: Working out what it was that I wanted to do 461 00:21:56,721 --> 00:21:59,801 Speaker 3: is something that I think I've struggled with to this 462 00:21:59,921 --> 00:22:03,201 Speaker 3: very day. To be honest, Yeah, I've done different things 463 00:22:03,281 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 3: and experienced different things leaving policing, but you know, I 464 00:22:06,961 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 3: don't think I'm settled yet in terms about you know, 465 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,201 Speaker 3: what it is that will give me that deep sense 466 00:22:12,241 --> 00:22:15,281 Speaker 3: of purpose that I desire. I felt my own confidence 467 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:17,801 Speaker 3: was challenged, and I felt my own sense of value 468 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,801 Speaker 3: was challenged. But sometimes you've got no choice but to 469 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 3: pick yourself up. 470 00:22:21,921 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 2: So would you look at now, what's been the greatest 471 00:22:24,241 --> 00:22:26,201 Speaker 2: lesson you've learned about yourself during that period? 472 00:22:26,561 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 3: I'm a hell of a lot more resilient than whatever 473 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 3: thought I was, you know, because you know, other things 474 00:22:31,481 --> 00:22:34,721 Speaker 3: happened since leaving policing too that have been really challenging, 475 00:22:34,801 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 3: and I've been able to sort of pick myself up 476 00:22:36,681 --> 00:22:39,041 Speaker 3: every time and keep going bad. But you know, I 477 00:22:39,041 --> 00:22:42,281 Speaker 3: think going through that experience made me a much better 478 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 3: leader and probably a much better person. One thing I 479 00:22:45,521 --> 00:22:48,881 Speaker 3: did do, and I consciously did it, was I took 480 00:22:48,921 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 3: a decision to not publicly comment about it. You know, 481 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 3: I looked around and I saw others that had changes 482 00:22:55,441 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 3: of circumstances and they publicly commented it, and you know, 483 00:22:58,201 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 3: were pretty upset and almost bitter in many ways. But 484 00:23:01,241 --> 00:23:04,961 Speaker 3: I looked and saw somebody that putting politics aside. I thought, 485 00:23:05,201 --> 00:23:08,321 Speaker 3: I want a wonderful example of somebody who grew in 486 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 3: dignity violent and that was Julia Giller, now putting politics 487 00:23:14,201 --> 00:23:17,761 Speaker 3: completely aside. I looked at what she did, and by 488 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,481 Speaker 3: maintaining her dignity and being silent after I guess you, 489 00:23:21,681 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 3: losing the Prime ministership was something I thought, wow, And 490 00:23:24,521 --> 00:23:27,801 Speaker 3: she seemed to grow more and more favorable to the 491 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 3: community at large, as I guess a dignified figure, and 492 00:23:31,241 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 3: so I thought, as tempting as it was, I decided 493 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 3: for a very long time not to say anything about it, 494 00:23:37,921 --> 00:23:39,961 Speaker 3: and was only when I went to my current role 495 00:23:40,041 --> 00:23:42,801 Speaker 3: for in Australia that I opened up about the impact 496 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,921 Speaker 3: on me. Right this day, I have not and will 497 00:23:45,961 --> 00:23:49,321 Speaker 3: not be critical of a commission taking a decision to 498 00:23:49,921 --> 00:23:52,001 Speaker 3: form their own team and not have me part of it. 499 00:23:52,041 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 3: That is part and parcel of life. 500 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,241 Speaker 2: Well, I think that says a lot about your values 501 00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 2: and what's important to you. And I think you know, 502 00:23:58,761 --> 00:24:00,881 Speaker 2: when we look at values, it's very much about being 503 00:24:00,921 --> 00:24:03,201 Speaker 2: your authentic self. And that's interesting when you talk about 504 00:24:03,281 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 2: I mean, I would, hands down the time I've. 505 00:24:04,801 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: Met you that you're a very authentic leader. 506 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 2: But I'd be interested to know, in such a public, 507 00:24:09,321 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 2: high stakes role that you were in, was authenticity always 508 00:24:12,761 --> 00:24:15,801 Speaker 2: easy or were there times that you had to hold 509 00:24:15,801 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 2: back and not be authentic because was there things you 510 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 2: can't say sometimes? 511 00:24:18,961 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 3: And you're, yeah, look, there was always things were policing 512 00:24:21,721 --> 00:24:23,921 Speaker 3: that you couldn't say, particularly in the counter terrorism space, 513 00:24:23,961 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 3: particularly with high profile investigations that can be impacted deeply 514 00:24:29,521 --> 00:24:32,761 Speaker 3: by public comment. But no, authenticity is something I think 515 00:24:32,801 --> 00:24:36,921 Speaker 3: that I probably learned and evolved into over time. Because 516 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 3: as a leader, you know the first time I was 517 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 3: a superintendent was down at Far South Coast Local Aeric Command. 518 00:24:42,281 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 3: You know, it was thirty five years of age, had 519 00:24:44,481 --> 00:24:47,161 Speaker 3: a whole command under me. I would say, a harsh 520 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 3: command and control type leader. Really yeah, and there was 521 00:24:50,721 --> 00:24:54,521 Speaker 3: a command that probably needed some shaking and some change, 522 00:24:54,561 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 3: but that was the way I'd been sort of taught. 523 00:24:57,561 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 3: Just prior to that, I went to another command at 524 00:25:00,241 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 3: Lake Elawura, which was performing really really well, and I 525 00:25:03,201 --> 00:25:06,321 Speaker 3: found that I had to adapt my style again because 526 00:25:06,321 --> 00:25:08,961 Speaker 3: that sort of a style wasn't going to work. And then, 527 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 3: you know, ultimately going to somewhere like the homicide squad, 528 00:25:12,201 --> 00:25:17,001 Speaker 3: You've got big egos, big people, big personalities who technically 529 00:25:17,041 --> 00:25:21,521 Speaker 3: are outstanding investigators. They would leave me for dead in 530 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 3: terms of homicide investigation. But my role was different. You know. 531 00:25:25,761 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 3: My role as the boss of homicide was to go 532 00:25:27,761 --> 00:25:30,601 Speaker 3: in there and basically take care of the policy, get 533 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 3: them the resources they needed to do these jobs, and 534 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 3: set drive the direction of the squad. So I had 535 00:25:36,481 --> 00:25:38,681 Speaker 3: to change my style again. And so I think as 536 00:25:38,801 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 3: time went on, I learned that I personally got a 537 00:25:43,241 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 3: lot of energy and a lot of fuel in me 538 00:25:46,801 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 3: from getting out and actually interacting with the troops on 539 00:25:49,281 --> 00:25:52,281 Speaker 3: the front line and spending time with them. I really 540 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 3: enjoyed going out and sitting down with the constable in 541 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 3: the mill room and saying like, hey, so what's your day, 542 00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:00,761 Speaker 3: being like you? And I think that authenticity came from 543 00:26:00,761 --> 00:26:03,961 Speaker 3: that because I saw and felt the power as a 544 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,321 Speaker 3: leader of our hearts and minds rather than telling someone 545 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 3: what to do and directing them certain things. And so 546 00:26:11,001 --> 00:26:13,801 Speaker 3: I think over time the authenticity grew in me. And 547 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 3: I would like to think that you know, when I 548 00:26:15,241 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 3: left policing and then moved into other roles, you know 549 00:26:18,921 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 3: that authenticity and that leadership style has been proven to 550 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,681 Speaker 3: be successful because I've been able to adapt to other 551 00:26:24,721 --> 00:26:27,401 Speaker 3: sectors and be the same person that I always want. 552 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,521 Speaker 2: How people respond to that style that you've got of 553 00:26:29,561 --> 00:26:32,041 Speaker 2: being authentic and sitting down and having an honest conversation 554 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,961 Speaker 2: and being a bit more connected. Were there times where 555 00:26:35,041 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 2: that was rejected? 556 00:26:36,201 --> 00:26:39,561 Speaker 3: I think increasingly, the more speeches I give, the more 557 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 3: time I spend talking to people, the more people appreciate it. 558 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: They want to see authenticity from leaders that want to 559 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 3: see someone go, you know what, I'm not perfect, you know, 560 00:26:48,921 --> 00:26:52,081 Speaker 3: I don't have all the ideas. Sometimes I suffer from 561 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 3: an imposter syndrome too. All of those things that I 562 00:26:55,521 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 3: think people see in themselves they want to see in 563 00:26:58,761 --> 00:27:01,961 Speaker 3: their leaders. They want to see authenticity and somebody who 564 00:27:02,001 --> 00:27:04,961 Speaker 3: can have a conversation with the king and the queen 565 00:27:05,201 --> 00:27:07,441 Speaker 3: and the local bloke at the pub because they see 566 00:27:07,481 --> 00:27:10,001 Speaker 3: themselves in leaders. And I think, you know, in terms 567 00:27:10,041 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 3: of that being rejected, I have no doubt you know, 568 00:27:12,721 --> 00:27:14,481 Speaker 3: in a speech I've given or something to be somebody 569 00:27:14,561 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 3: sitting in the back of the room going, oh this 570 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 3: is all rubbish or you know whatever. But it's funny. 571 00:27:18,681 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 3: I gave a speech a couple of weeks ago in 572 00:27:20,481 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 3: Townsville to some officers in charge, is about sixty of 573 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,801 Speaker 3: them from Queensland Police. There were some pretty old, crusty 574 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 3: inspectors in that room. You know what you could just tell. 575 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,001 Speaker 3: They just went, great, we've got a leader. He was 576 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 3: actually willing to come out and tell the honest truth 577 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 3: about things. Actually be vulnerable. And I think being vulnerable 578 00:27:40,721 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 3: is a connecting quality. And I think vulnerability really is 579 00:27:44,561 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 3: that unmeasurable thing that connects someone to somebody else, right, 580 00:27:49,761 --> 00:27:52,041 Speaker 3: And I believe that you know, the power of that 581 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 3: far out weighs, you know, telling someone to do something 582 00:27:55,801 --> 00:27:57,441 Speaker 3: when you have to get them to do something. Now, 583 00:27:57,481 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 3: in saying that, M there are times when that is 584 00:28:00,521 --> 00:28:03,561 Speaker 3: absolutely applicable, certainly in Cristis and those certain things where 585 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 3: you've got to make decisions to get things go to that. 586 00:28:05,921 --> 00:28:07,961 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the think Authenticity doesn't have to mean 587 00:28:07,961 --> 00:28:10,561 Speaker 2: that you're not decisive, and being vulnerable doesn't mean you 588 00:28:10,561 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: can't make. 589 00:28:10,961 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: The hard cause. 590 00:28:11,761 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 2: But I actually loved everything you said then because for me, 591 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,561 Speaker 2: authenticity I describe as the opportunity for connection exceeds the 592 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:19,281 Speaker 2: fear of rejection. 593 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:19,561 Speaker 1: Right. 594 00:28:19,561 --> 00:28:21,001 Speaker 2: So when you said you stand in that room and 595 00:28:21,001 --> 00:28:22,961 Speaker 2: you know someone in the back row might be going 596 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: doesn't matter. You still do it anyway because there's other 597 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 2: people in that room that you'll connect to. And just 598 00:28:27,721 --> 00:28:30,321 Speaker 2: because someone's behavior on the surface might be giving you 599 00:28:30,321 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 2: some funny looks, you don't know what's going on inside 600 00:28:32,201 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 2: for them, right, that just could be their uncomfortableness with 601 00:28:34,721 --> 00:28:35,961 Speaker 2: honesty and transparency. 602 00:28:36,001 --> 00:28:37,801 Speaker 1: So I love that. I think that's incredible. 603 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,801 Speaker 2: But even using the word vulnerability, which obviously I love 604 00:28:40,841 --> 00:28:43,641 Speaker 2: informs part of my Brave framework. But when people think 605 00:28:43,721 --> 00:28:46,281 Speaker 2: about the culture and the police force or public sector, 606 00:28:46,441 --> 00:28:50,081 Speaker 2: there can be some strong perceptions, some based on reality, others, 607 00:28:50,161 --> 00:28:52,761 Speaker 2: you know, just a stigma. But as someone who's been 608 00:28:52,801 --> 00:28:56,721 Speaker 2: inside and now is leading outside, what do you think 609 00:28:56,881 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 2: are the big cultural behaviors that need to change for 610 00:28:59,801 --> 00:29:01,041 Speaker 2: these institutions to kind. 611 00:29:00,961 --> 00:29:04,361 Speaker 3: Of go to the next level. Trust, institutions need to 612 00:29:04,401 --> 00:29:07,321 Speaker 3: be trusted. Policing in particular, I'm a big fan of 613 00:29:07,321 --> 00:29:10,641 Speaker 3: the Pelian Principles of policing. My own business is called 614 00:29:10,681 --> 00:29:14,161 Speaker 3: the Pelian Group. Know why because back you know in 615 00:29:14,201 --> 00:29:16,801 Speaker 3: eighteen twenty four when the Plian Principles of Policing were 616 00:29:16,801 --> 00:29:19,081 Speaker 3: written by Sir Robert Pearl, who became the Prime Minister 617 00:29:19,081 --> 00:29:23,681 Speaker 3: of England twice. There's nine principles. What underpins them is trust, 618 00:29:23,921 --> 00:29:27,401 Speaker 3: legitimacy and authenticity, the things that we're talking about. You 619 00:29:27,441 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 3: cannot police a community in Western society without consent and 620 00:29:32,801 --> 00:29:35,881 Speaker 3: trust of the community, and so that's always resonated with me. 621 00:29:36,041 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 3: So I think organizations in the public sector sometimes there 622 00:29:40,441 --> 00:29:44,201 Speaker 3: are a risk of being seen as not legitimate, not truthful, 623 00:29:44,201 --> 00:29:46,161 Speaker 3: as is the word I'm trying to avoid here. But 624 00:29:46,921 --> 00:29:52,001 Speaker 3: transactional uncaring not connected those sorts of things. And I 625 00:29:52,041 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 3: think that, you know, to go to next level, you 626 00:29:54,281 --> 00:29:57,081 Speaker 3: need leaders who are going to be authentic, speak to 627 00:29:57,121 --> 00:30:00,281 Speaker 3: the values of organizations and show it, live and breathe 628 00:30:00,321 --> 00:30:02,441 Speaker 3: what they do. And I'm not saying that there aren't 629 00:30:02,441 --> 00:30:05,001 Speaker 3: those leaders, because there are many wonderful leaders in sect. 630 00:30:05,241 --> 00:30:09,001 Speaker 3: But you know, the more that an organization in a 631 00:30:09,041 --> 00:30:12,201 Speaker 3: particular sector is seen to be doing the wrong thing 632 00:30:12,281 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 3: by the community or society, et cetera, chips away out 633 00:30:15,561 --> 00:30:18,361 Speaker 3: their authenticity the trust that the community has in them. 634 00:30:18,721 --> 00:30:21,041 Speaker 3: So I've seen that with the banking sector, you know, 635 00:30:21,121 --> 00:30:23,441 Speaker 3: raw commissions and those things. We've seen it with other 636 00:30:23,521 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 3: sectors where people question the intent and the morals and 637 00:30:28,001 --> 00:30:31,041 Speaker 3: the drive and what it is that those organizations exist for. 638 00:30:31,161 --> 00:30:33,921 Speaker 3: We see it day in and day out with our 639 00:30:33,961 --> 00:30:36,601 Speaker 3: political sector, you know, where people just go, you know, 640 00:30:37,241 --> 00:30:39,801 Speaker 3: this is crazy, you know, like is that person for 641 00:30:39,841 --> 00:30:41,881 Speaker 3: themselves or are they in it for the right reasons? 642 00:30:41,921 --> 00:30:44,481 Speaker 3: And that's the whole of society. Now only the individuals 643 00:30:44,521 --> 00:30:47,921 Speaker 3: can answer that. But lack of trust is permeating. And 644 00:30:47,961 --> 00:30:50,801 Speaker 3: I think that you know, we're seeing look at you know, 645 00:30:50,881 --> 00:30:53,481 Speaker 3: the events where a person in the United States who 646 00:30:53,561 --> 00:30:58,561 Speaker 3: is a spokesperson on social media for conservative opinions has 647 00:30:58,601 --> 00:31:03,201 Speaker 3: been assassinated. What is happening now? Those sorts of division 648 00:31:03,281 --> 00:31:06,321 Speaker 3: between right and left in politics is really dangerous, I think, 649 00:31:06,401 --> 00:31:09,281 Speaker 3: and you know, so people aren't trusting the institutions that 650 00:31:09,641 --> 00:31:13,401 Speaker 3: exist and have existed for a long time in our society. 651 00:31:13,401 --> 00:31:16,161 Speaker 3: And I think organizations to go to the next level 652 00:31:16,241 --> 00:31:19,881 Speaker 3: lead to demonstrate trust, demonstrate that they can be trusted. 653 00:31:20,081 --> 00:31:22,281 Speaker 1: But I think underlying all that is why don't people trust? 654 00:31:22,281 --> 00:31:24,521 Speaker 2: Is there a fear of speaking out, for saying what 655 00:31:24,561 --> 00:31:25,121 Speaker 2: the truth is? 656 00:31:25,161 --> 00:31:25,641 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? 657 00:31:25,721 --> 00:31:26,841 Speaker 2: Like, at the end of the day, it's a bigger 658 00:31:26,881 --> 00:31:29,121 Speaker 2: challenge on the cards to build trust. 659 00:31:29,481 --> 00:31:31,841 Speaker 1: People are afraid, I suppose you know, the consequences. 660 00:31:32,161 --> 00:31:36,561 Speaker 3: Consequences as consequences. Sometimes sometimes those consequences aren't good. Now, 661 00:31:36,841 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 3: you know, I left policing with a heavy heart, not 662 00:31:39,321 --> 00:31:41,921 Speaker 3: from anything that I did wrong, not that anything I 663 00:31:42,001 --> 00:31:44,921 Speaker 3: said or anything like that. But they see that. The 664 00:31:45,041 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 3: organization I remember at the time, saw that. And you 665 00:31:47,521 --> 00:31:50,841 Speaker 3: had leadership within New South Wali's police who were almost 666 00:31:50,881 --> 00:31:53,681 Speaker 3: paralyzed because they thought if it can happen to make it, 667 00:31:53,721 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 3: can happen to me. Yeah, and so all sorts of 668 00:31:56,241 --> 00:31:59,201 Speaker 3: things permeate. And that's what I mean about the ramifications 669 00:31:59,201 --> 00:32:01,841 Speaker 3: of these sorts of decisions. Right or wrong. About the 670 00:32:01,881 --> 00:32:05,081 Speaker 3: merit of terminating my contract, that's a sidety issue. But 671 00:32:05,161 --> 00:32:09,881 Speaker 3: the consequences are something that sometimes aren't thought about, consequences 672 00:32:09,921 --> 00:32:11,041 Speaker 3: to speaking up sometimes. 673 00:32:12,441 --> 00:32:14,521 Speaker 2: So moving sort of forward to where you're at now, 674 00:32:14,721 --> 00:32:16,961 Speaker 2: do you still now have moments where you strike me 675 00:32:17,001 --> 00:32:19,681 Speaker 2: somebod who never gets nervous. You seem very calm, very measured. 676 00:32:19,961 --> 00:32:21,841 Speaker 2: You know, you talked about having some aposter syndrome in 677 00:32:21,841 --> 00:32:23,601 Speaker 2: the past before. How do you sort of see yourself 678 00:32:23,641 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: now going into challenges. Do you still have those moments 679 00:32:25,761 --> 00:32:28,401 Speaker 2: where you get nervous so you feel uncomfortable or do 680 00:32:28,401 --> 00:32:31,041 Speaker 2: you kind of feel like you've mastered that not nervous. 681 00:32:31,081 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 3: I think you're having nerves is a healthy thing in 682 00:32:33,281 --> 00:32:36,521 Speaker 3: some ways too. Look, I'm comfortable, certainly public speaking, I'm 683 00:32:36,521 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 3: comfortable in doing those things. I'm comfortable in the leader 684 00:32:39,321 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 3: I am. I see myself still searching for the right 685 00:32:43,961 --> 00:32:45,921 Speaker 3: role for me now. I often joke that that might 686 00:32:45,961 --> 00:32:48,081 Speaker 3: be just being a professional golf caddie. I'm not sure, 687 00:32:48,201 --> 00:32:51,761 Speaker 3: but you know like I know that I've got more 688 00:32:51,761 --> 00:32:55,521 Speaker 3: to give and ultimately, you know, at the moment, I'm 689 00:32:55,561 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 3: leading a wonderful organization in Fortam, Australia, a charity that 690 00:32:59,001 --> 00:33:02,721 Speaker 3: helps first responders and their families. It's a wonderful organization. 691 00:33:02,921 --> 00:33:05,321 Speaker 3: Prior to that, you know, I was managing direct for 692 00:33:05,801 --> 00:33:09,161 Speaker 3: a large global consultancy, set up a national security practice. 693 00:33:09,641 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 3: Different experiences, you know, have been great for me. But 694 00:33:12,521 --> 00:33:15,161 Speaker 3: I'm still searching for that thing where you know, it's 695 00:33:15,161 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 3: my true north. Maybe that's something that I'll continue to do. 696 00:33:18,561 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 3: I don't know what that will be ultimately in the 697 00:33:21,241 --> 00:33:23,361 Speaker 3: long run. I like what I'm doing at the moment. 698 00:33:23,681 --> 00:33:25,881 Speaker 3: I have a wonderful team around me that you know, 699 00:33:25,881 --> 00:33:28,361 Speaker 3: I feel like I lead from behind. I just empower 700 00:33:28,401 --> 00:33:31,521 Speaker 3: these great people to do good. But you know, is 701 00:33:31,561 --> 00:33:33,681 Speaker 3: it my favorite job? Of course not, of course not. 702 00:33:33,841 --> 00:33:35,841 Speaker 3: It'll be something else at some point, because I do 703 00:33:35,921 --> 00:33:37,801 Speaker 3: believe as a leader, I've got a lot more to give. 704 00:33:38,001 --> 00:33:41,121 Speaker 2: With the change of pace from policing into moving outside 705 00:33:41,161 --> 00:33:44,121 Speaker 2: of that. Do you find you looking after yourself better? 706 00:33:44,121 --> 00:33:45,601 Speaker 2: Like what's your self care regime? 707 00:33:45,641 --> 00:33:45,681 Speaker 3: Like? 708 00:33:45,801 --> 00:33:47,921 Speaker 1: Are you sort of prioritizing mech and everything that goes 709 00:33:47,961 --> 00:33:48,641 Speaker 1: with that as well. 710 00:33:49,161 --> 00:33:51,841 Speaker 3: Yes, you know, maybe I should listen to myself more 711 00:33:51,881 --> 00:33:54,961 Speaker 3: and learn my lessons, but no, you know, I exercise 712 00:33:55,001 --> 00:33:57,081 Speaker 3: every day, you know, I try and keep busy. I'm 713 00:33:57,121 --> 00:34:00,241 Speaker 3: doing different things. I've almost got like a portfolio career 714 00:34:00,281 --> 00:34:02,841 Speaker 3: at the moment in some ways where I'm the CEO 715 00:34:02,961 --> 00:34:05,961 Speaker 3: for in Australia. I'm doing some really interesting bono stuff 716 00:34:05,961 --> 00:34:07,961 Speaker 3: with the Institute of Economics and Peace at the moment 717 00:34:08,001 --> 00:34:12,041 Speaker 3: around some civil military operations and how do communities transition 718 00:34:12,081 --> 00:34:15,881 Speaker 3: from military occupation to community policing. You know, those sorts 719 00:34:15,921 --> 00:34:18,241 Speaker 3: of things are more brain food for me. But I'm 720 00:34:18,241 --> 00:34:21,761 Speaker 3: always looking for different opportunities to do something which is rewarding. 721 00:34:22,121 --> 00:34:23,881 Speaker 3: What that looks like at the end of the day 722 00:34:24,081 --> 00:34:26,561 Speaker 3: and what role I end up in, I honestly don't know. 723 00:34:27,001 --> 00:34:28,921 Speaker 3: Honestly don't know, but I try to look after myself 724 00:34:28,921 --> 00:34:31,161 Speaker 3: as best possible. Do you sleep well, Yeah, I do 725 00:34:31,521 --> 00:34:33,761 Speaker 3: much better than when in policing. Yeah, because you know, 726 00:34:34,041 --> 00:34:36,281 Speaker 3: ultimately in the roles that I've had a call had 727 00:34:36,281 --> 00:34:37,641 Speaker 3: come in in the middle of the night as a 728 00:34:37,681 --> 00:34:40,041 Speaker 3: region commander when I was at Central Metropolitan Region in 729 00:34:40,081 --> 00:34:42,361 Speaker 3: Sydney for arguments sake, where you're making calls in the 730 00:34:42,361 --> 00:34:47,161 Speaker 3: middle of the night about authorizing tactical responses to sieges 731 00:34:47,321 --> 00:34:50,001 Speaker 3: and you know, all of these things life and death 732 00:34:50,041 --> 00:34:52,081 Speaker 3: decisions that you're making calls in the middle of the 733 00:34:52,161 --> 00:34:54,921 Speaker 3: night on. These things have happened all the time, and that's. 734 00:34:54,761 --> 00:34:56,601 Speaker 2: Why it's sort of I've always find it fascinating when 735 00:34:56,601 --> 00:34:58,521 Speaker 2: I inter to be people who in these high profile roles, 736 00:34:58,801 --> 00:35:00,521 Speaker 2: I'd say eighty percent of them tell me. 737 00:35:00,561 --> 00:35:03,001 Speaker 1: That you sleep quite well, which I find really fascinating. 738 00:35:03,041 --> 00:35:05,441 Speaker 2: And I think that comes down to perhaps at to 739 00:35:05,481 --> 00:35:06,921 Speaker 2: let go of what's in new control and what's not, 740 00:35:07,001 --> 00:35:09,201 Speaker 2: Like I mean, in that case getting those phone calls 741 00:35:09,201 --> 00:35:11,241 Speaker 2: the middle of the night, But in most cases, no 742 00:35:11,281 --> 00:35:13,241 Speaker 2: matter the seniority of your role, how much can you 743 00:35:13,241 --> 00:35:14,281 Speaker 2: do in the middle of the night, Like do you 744 00:35:14,361 --> 00:35:16,201 Speaker 2: need to let it go and deal with it tomorrow morning. 745 00:35:16,241 --> 00:35:18,601 Speaker 2: So I'm always fascinated in people's ability to let go 746 00:35:18,641 --> 00:35:19,041 Speaker 2: of control. 747 00:35:19,121 --> 00:35:20,801 Speaker 1: Use it's a control thing, you know. 748 00:35:20,881 --> 00:35:23,201 Speaker 3: Sometimes you know you've got to make a call and 749 00:35:23,321 --> 00:35:26,721 Speaker 3: running counter terrorism with wonderful people from ASIOL and the 750 00:35:26,721 --> 00:35:30,321 Speaker 3: Australian Federal Police working hand in hand, making decisions that 751 00:35:30,321 --> 00:35:33,761 Speaker 3: were literally life or death with half the information, you know, 752 00:35:33,881 --> 00:35:36,161 Speaker 3: big calls that you had to make them at the time. 753 00:35:36,681 --> 00:35:40,041 Speaker 3: Sometimes you can't wait till the next day. So, you know, 754 00:35:40,681 --> 00:35:42,441 Speaker 3: I guess in terms of the sleep as well. And 755 00:35:42,681 --> 00:35:44,561 Speaker 3: I think it probably took me a couple of years 756 00:35:44,561 --> 00:35:48,321 Speaker 3: after leaving policing to come down from that hyper vigilance. 757 00:35:48,921 --> 00:35:51,241 Speaker 3: And because you live in this hypervigilant state and you 758 00:35:51,281 --> 00:35:54,161 Speaker 3: see things that others don't see. So yeah, it took 759 00:35:54,201 --> 00:35:55,001 Speaker 3: me a couple of years. 760 00:35:55,281 --> 00:35:57,681 Speaker 2: So when things like don't go right, and let's say 761 00:35:57,721 --> 00:36:00,201 Speaker 2: somebody beneath you doesn't align with what you're doing or 762 00:36:00,241 --> 00:36:02,281 Speaker 2: doesn't and it's completely out of you know, how do 763 00:36:02,321 --> 00:36:03,721 Speaker 2: you deal with conflicts. 764 00:36:03,321 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: Like are you somebody that feels quite comfort or having 765 00:36:05,481 --> 00:36:06,721 Speaker 1: the difficult conversations. 766 00:36:06,881 --> 00:36:10,361 Speaker 3: I've never felt comfortable having a difficult conversation, but I've 767 00:36:10,441 --> 00:36:14,161 Speaker 3: always felt compelled to have the difficult conversation and you 768 00:36:14,201 --> 00:36:16,521 Speaker 3: shouldn't avoid them, you know. I'm somebody who wants to 769 00:36:16,841 --> 00:36:19,041 Speaker 3: fix the problem then and there, you know, and that's 770 00:36:19,161 --> 00:36:24,401 Speaker 3: put into my destriment in personal relationships, that's probably been 771 00:36:24,401 --> 00:36:27,201 Speaker 3: to my detriment. But that's the way that I think 772 00:36:27,321 --> 00:36:30,121 Speaker 3: police officers in particular or trained they fix problems. They 773 00:36:30,201 --> 00:36:32,961 Speaker 3: fill with things. But you know, sometimes what I've learned 774 00:36:33,041 --> 00:36:36,441 Speaker 3: over time is to sometimes give it some space. And 775 00:36:36,441 --> 00:36:39,921 Speaker 3: it's been difficult sometimes, but my tongue because I do 776 00:36:39,961 --> 00:36:42,241 Speaker 3: think time is a great healer in many ways, because 777 00:36:42,361 --> 00:36:45,641 Speaker 3: emotions can calm down and dissipate in those things. But 778 00:36:45,881 --> 00:36:49,161 Speaker 3: in terms of conflict and having difficult conversations, I'm quite 779 00:36:49,441 --> 00:36:51,921 Speaker 3: capable of doing that. You know, that's not the issue. 780 00:36:51,961 --> 00:36:55,641 Speaker 3: It's just resolving things in a timely appropriate manner. It's 781 00:36:55,681 --> 00:36:57,881 Speaker 3: probably what I've learned more and more over time. 782 00:36:58,241 --> 00:37:00,041 Speaker 2: I guess, looking back at all of this, if you 783 00:37:00,081 --> 00:37:02,721 Speaker 2: look back now, what is something that you're aware about 784 00:37:02,801 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 2: about yourself now that you just went before? Like, what's 785 00:37:05,441 --> 00:37:07,721 Speaker 2: the something that you've now got that you understand about 786 00:37:07,721 --> 00:37:08,401 Speaker 2: yourself that you're. 787 00:37:08,321 --> 00:37:10,161 Speaker 1: Going to take forward into the next chapter of your life. 788 00:37:10,321 --> 00:37:14,081 Speaker 3: One thing that I've learned in a positive way going 789 00:37:14,121 --> 00:37:16,521 Speaker 3: from policing to the private sector now they're not for 790 00:37:16,601 --> 00:37:19,201 Speaker 3: profit sector, and a few other things in between, is 791 00:37:19,201 --> 00:37:21,281 Speaker 3: that I am a very good leader. And I do 792 00:37:21,321 --> 00:37:24,161 Speaker 3: have great confidence in the fact that I've evolved over 793 00:37:24,281 --> 00:37:27,201 Speaker 3: time into a very good leader because I've had different 794 00:37:27,241 --> 00:37:29,721 Speaker 3: experiences to other people and I've been able to sort 795 00:37:29,721 --> 00:37:32,201 Speaker 3: of see that. So that might sound arrogant and all 796 00:37:32,201 --> 00:37:33,961 Speaker 3: those systings, but I love that. 797 00:37:34,081 --> 00:37:34,961 Speaker 1: I wanted you to say that. 798 00:37:35,001 --> 00:37:36,881 Speaker 2: I hope that you'd say that because you are an 799 00:37:36,881 --> 00:37:39,401 Speaker 2: incredible leader. I mean, I've met a lot of leaders 800 00:37:39,441 --> 00:37:42,641 Speaker 2: in my time, and I think you're so approachable, like 801 00:37:42,761 --> 00:37:43,521 Speaker 2: so easy to chalt. 802 00:37:43,561 --> 00:37:44,121 Speaker 1: And this is such a. 803 00:37:44,121 --> 00:37:46,721 Speaker 2: Big thing, you know, feeling that people can be themselves 804 00:37:46,761 --> 00:37:47,321 Speaker 2: with somebody. 805 00:37:47,361 --> 00:37:47,481 Speaker 3: Right. 806 00:37:47,521 --> 00:37:48,921 Speaker 2: I can come up and I can tell you honestly, 807 00:37:48,961 --> 00:37:51,481 Speaker 2: and you can handle it right. You've got that emotional 808 00:37:51,521 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 2: regulation to handle what I have to tell you, not overreact, 809 00:37:55,281 --> 00:37:57,201 Speaker 2: make people feel safe. I think your ability to be 810 00:37:57,321 --> 00:37:59,761 Speaker 2: vulnerable builds trust really quickly. I think that is the 811 00:37:59,801 --> 00:38:02,321 Speaker 2: hack right to building trust fast is two people being 812 00:38:02,361 --> 00:38:04,321 Speaker 2: vulnerable with each other. You get there a lot quicker 813 00:38:05,441 --> 00:38:07,081 Speaker 2: because it's not what I would expect or what I've 814 00:38:07,081 --> 00:38:09,241 Speaker 2: met from other people I've met in the same industries. 815 00:38:09,241 --> 00:38:12,681 Speaker 2: It doesn't feel like it's as commonplace, and so I 816 00:38:12,761 --> 00:38:15,321 Speaker 2: love the potential that you have to influence. 817 00:38:15,761 --> 00:38:17,881 Speaker 3: I don't think it's commonplace, but I think it needs 818 00:38:17,881 --> 00:38:18,881 Speaker 3: to be more commonplace. 819 00:38:19,241 --> 00:38:20,001 Speaker 1: How does that happen? 820 00:38:20,241 --> 00:38:22,121 Speaker 3: Well, you know, one of the things I like doing 821 00:38:22,201 --> 00:38:24,281 Speaker 3: and I do a probono off my own hot is 822 00:38:24,321 --> 00:38:26,721 Speaker 3: I love coaching and mentoring people. I love it like 823 00:38:26,761 --> 00:38:29,961 Speaker 3: I just enjoy seeing great people grow. So I think 824 00:38:30,001 --> 00:38:32,681 Speaker 3: that it's incumbent upon leaders to stand up and be 825 00:38:32,841 --> 00:38:36,801 Speaker 3: authentic and to allow and create the environments where more 826 00:38:36,841 --> 00:38:40,121 Speaker 3: of this shines through. I think, you know, on a negative, 827 00:38:40,481 --> 00:38:42,601 Speaker 3: thing I've learned about myself is that you know, I'm 828 00:38:42,641 --> 00:38:46,001 Speaker 3: just susceptible and I'm just as open to being hurt 829 00:38:46,081 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 3: and being vulnerable and failing like everyone else. I've gone 830 00:38:49,521 --> 00:38:52,641 Speaker 3: through lots of ups and downs in policing. Some of 831 00:38:52,681 --> 00:38:55,441 Speaker 3: it I didn't realize I was going through, but certainly 832 00:38:55,521 --> 00:38:58,041 Speaker 3: after policing, I've been through lots of ups and downs too, 833 00:38:58,121 --> 00:39:01,081 Speaker 3: and I'm just as vulnerable as anyone else. And so yeah, 834 00:39:01,121 --> 00:39:04,081 Speaker 3: I think I've learned that about myself. And I've mentioned resilience. 835 00:39:04,441 --> 00:39:06,841 Speaker 3: Resilience too also comes You've got to go through the 836 00:39:06,881 --> 00:39:08,401 Speaker 3: crusal a couple of times to get. 837 00:39:08,241 --> 00:39:09,761 Speaker 1: There, but also that resilience. 838 00:39:09,761 --> 00:39:11,961 Speaker 2: I think what you've proven through your story as well 839 00:39:12,041 --> 00:39:14,641 Speaker 2: is that resilience isn't just the tenacity and the grind. 840 00:39:14,681 --> 00:39:17,801 Speaker 2: It's not just suck it up. It's also having other things. 841 00:39:17,841 --> 00:39:21,041 Speaker 2: It's looking after yourself, it's having that purpose. I mean, 842 00:39:21,121 --> 00:39:23,881 Speaker 2: for a lot of people, you know, without purpose, things 843 00:39:23,921 --> 00:39:25,801 Speaker 2: can just what's the point. It can seem too much, 844 00:39:25,801 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 2: it can seem to overwhelm. You can only grind so long. 845 00:39:28,361 --> 00:39:30,401 Speaker 2: But you know, you've got the ability to stay composed 846 00:39:30,481 --> 00:39:33,881 Speaker 2: under pressure. You've got that purpose, You're driven, you've got 847 00:39:33,881 --> 00:39:36,281 Speaker 2: a bigger ambition to achieve more, and all those things 848 00:39:36,321 --> 00:39:37,281 Speaker 2: make up being resilient. 849 00:39:37,361 --> 00:39:38,681 Speaker 1: It's not just the. 850 00:39:38,681 --> 00:39:41,121 Speaker 3: Grind, absolutely agree, you know. I mean, the day to 851 00:39:41,201 --> 00:39:44,121 Speaker 3: day grind is tough as it is, but yes, there's 852 00:39:44,161 --> 00:39:46,521 Speaker 3: lots of components to this, you know, and I think, 853 00:39:46,561 --> 00:39:49,081 Speaker 3: you know, going back to where we started too, you know, 854 00:39:49,161 --> 00:39:52,201 Speaker 3: being a country guy, you know, born and bred and dubbo, 855 00:39:52,321 --> 00:39:55,041 Speaker 3: which is part and parcel of who I am. Instilled 856 00:39:55,081 --> 00:39:58,761 Speaker 3: with me this sort of I guess drive to I 857 00:39:58,841 --> 00:40:01,081 Speaker 3: used to say self actuate, you know, like to actually 858 00:40:01,361 --> 00:40:04,641 Speaker 3: achieve what I believe that I can achieve. And because 859 00:40:04,641 --> 00:40:06,921 Speaker 3: I don't think others in that environment don't have the 860 00:40:06,921 --> 00:40:09,641 Speaker 3: same opportunities that I've had. I can tell a story 861 00:40:09,641 --> 00:40:12,521 Speaker 3: about my father who had to leave school when he 862 00:40:12,561 --> 00:40:16,241 Speaker 3: was fourteen years old, because he's house burnt down, gas 863 00:40:16,401 --> 00:40:18,841 Speaker 3: fridge exploded. He lived in Dubbo, house burnt down, so 864 00:40:18,841 --> 00:40:20,841 Speaker 3: he had to leave school for a job, and so 865 00:40:21,201 --> 00:40:23,321 Speaker 3: he walked the streets of Dubbo until he came to 866 00:40:23,361 --> 00:40:26,881 Speaker 3: a hardware store in nineteen fifty five where a guy 867 00:40:26,961 --> 00:40:29,561 Speaker 3: gave him a job at age fourteen, and he stayed 868 00:40:29,601 --> 00:40:33,321 Speaker 3: there for almost forty years in the same job. My 869 00:40:33,441 --> 00:40:35,721 Speaker 3: dad was, and he's a smart guy, but never had 870 00:40:35,761 --> 00:40:39,041 Speaker 3: the opportunities that anyone else like me has had. And 871 00:40:39,081 --> 00:40:41,241 Speaker 3: so I've always felt this deep sense of purpose to 872 00:40:41,281 --> 00:40:44,081 Speaker 3: actually take opportunities for what they are and do what 873 00:40:44,121 --> 00:40:46,761 Speaker 3: I can to try and take advantage of opportunities that 874 00:40:46,841 --> 00:40:50,401 Speaker 3: come my way. So that's probably one of the driving 875 00:40:50,481 --> 00:40:54,841 Speaker 3: factors about coming from Dubbo as I have. That's driven 876 00:40:54,881 --> 00:40:56,601 Speaker 3: me throughout the course of my life and still does. 877 00:40:56,841 --> 00:40:58,721 Speaker 2: There's some wonderful lengths I feel like every time I 878 00:40:58,761 --> 00:41:00,241 Speaker 2: speak to someone who's come from a bit more of 879 00:41:00,241 --> 00:41:02,641 Speaker 2: a country town and sort of humble beginnings as a 880 00:41:02,641 --> 00:41:03,921 Speaker 2: lovely link I always. 881 00:41:03,681 --> 00:41:04,161 Speaker 3: Hee with people. 882 00:41:04,281 --> 00:41:06,121 Speaker 2: Well, to wrap this up, maybe I go back to 883 00:41:06,761 --> 00:41:09,441 Speaker 2: nineteen year old Mechendubbo, And you know, if you go 884 00:41:09,521 --> 00:41:11,881 Speaker 2: back to him, now, what advice would you give him? 885 00:41:12,161 --> 00:41:21,081 Speaker 3: Be an archaeologist? Ultimately, you know, life is going to 886 00:41:21,561 --> 00:41:24,321 Speaker 3: take you down paths that you never even dream of. 887 00:41:24,681 --> 00:41:27,761 Speaker 3: And a nineteen year old Nick now may well be 888 00:41:27,801 --> 00:41:29,841 Speaker 3: at a job that hasn't been invented yet, you know 889 00:41:29,881 --> 00:41:30,241 Speaker 3: in the US. 890 00:41:30,721 --> 00:41:32,801 Speaker 1: You know, I always say that the opbstacles are the past. 891 00:41:32,921 --> 00:41:33,721 Speaker 1: Life is this. 892 00:41:34,081 --> 00:41:36,601 Speaker 2: It is not this, It's not this, it's this, and 893 00:41:36,641 --> 00:41:39,841 Speaker 2: so just accepting when a door closes and me in 894 00:41:39,881 --> 00:41:41,601 Speaker 2: your case, a door shut, there's nothing you can do 895 00:41:41,641 --> 00:41:44,281 Speaker 2: about that that happens. But the doors that will open, like, 896 00:41:44,361 --> 00:41:46,001 Speaker 2: look for those. We're not spending a lot of time 897 00:41:46,041 --> 00:41:47,281 Speaker 2: focusing on the past, you know. 898 00:41:47,961 --> 00:41:49,801 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I would say that you know, you're going 899 00:41:49,841 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 3: to see and do things in your life that are 900 00:41:51,641 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 3: going to be incredibly rewarding, incredibly miching, and you're going 901 00:41:55,481 --> 00:41:58,081 Speaker 3: to see and do things that are going to be really tough. Yeah, 902 00:41:58,081 --> 00:42:00,481 Speaker 3: you know, life is about you know, how you cope 903 00:42:00,521 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 3: with that, and how you deal with good and the bad. 904 00:42:02,921 --> 00:42:04,681 Speaker 3: Being true to who you are as a human being, 905 00:42:04,681 --> 00:42:07,121 Speaker 3: I guess is fundamental to all well make. 906 00:42:07,201 --> 00:42:09,081 Speaker 2: It has been a pleasure talking to you. I am 907 00:42:09,201 --> 00:42:11,561 Speaker 2: always every time I talk to you. I'm like, get 908 00:42:11,561 --> 00:42:13,441 Speaker 2: this man on a stage. We need this man on 909 00:42:13,481 --> 00:42:15,361 Speaker 2: a stage many many places to talk to me, because 910 00:42:15,401 --> 00:42:18,121 Speaker 2: you really are an inspiration and I think give. 911 00:42:17,961 --> 00:42:19,721 Speaker 1: A lot of people. There's a lot of hope out 912 00:42:19,761 --> 00:42:20,161 Speaker 1: there with. 913 00:42:20,041 --> 00:42:22,361 Speaker 2: What the message that you share and a lot of positivity, 914 00:42:22,361 --> 00:42:22,721 Speaker 2: and I have. 915 00:42:22,721 --> 00:42:24,761 Speaker 1: No doubt that other people would look up and admire you. 916 00:42:24,921 --> 00:42:27,281 Speaker 2: So don't stop. Keep doing what you're doing. I think 917 00:42:27,321 --> 00:42:29,761 Speaker 2: that we've got some make some even bigger changes. I 918 00:42:29,761 --> 00:42:31,561 Speaker 2: think the mic to come has got to office. I 919 00:42:31,601 --> 00:42:32,681 Speaker 2: thank you for taking the time. 920 00:42:32,801 --> 00:42:34,761 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, and you know, I hope that 921 00:42:34,801 --> 00:42:36,521 Speaker 3: your listeners get a lot out of this and right 922 00:42:36,561 --> 00:42:38,241 Speaker 3: back at you him. It's lovely to have met you 923 00:42:38,321 --> 00:42:39,881 Speaker 3: and to be learning off you as well.