WEBVTT - Searching for Karlie | William Tyrrell: 2 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.440 One Monday a couple of months ago, I got into 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:09.840 the car with Nina, who's their producer. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:11.960 On this series, checking my levels again. 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.920 Pulled out into the traffic and went looking for someone 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.720 we've been trying to talk to for the past eighteen months. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:22.080 Where are we going? What are we doing? 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:22.320 Dan? 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:27.960 We're going to try and find William's birth mother, Carly. 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:31.840 And the reason I want to talk to. 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:32.639 Carly is. 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:36.760 Really just to let her know what we're doing and 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:39.479 why we're doing it, and to give her the chance 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:41.800 to tell us. 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:46.280 What she thinks of what happened. And the reason to 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:46.880 do that. 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:51.720 Is because if it was my child, I would want 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.800 someone to contact me before doing this. 0:00:55.840 --> 0:01:02.560 Yeah, but they're not an easy family to get hold of. 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.760 No, So what we're doing today is our last option really, 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:11.559 because we've tried contacting Carly through social media, We've tried 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:15.120 contacting Carlie on the phone, We've tried several furgn numbers. 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:19.880 So our last effort, because we really do want to 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:22.800 make sure Carli is at least aware of this podcast, 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.600 even if she doesn't want to speak to us, We're 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:26.440 going to door knock. 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:30.040 Yeah, We've got three addresses and we're going to knock 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.000 each of those houses and ask if she's there and 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:33.440 ask if. 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:38.880 She wants to talk to us. And we've done this 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.920 for Brendan as well. It is William's dad. You we've 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:43.119 been driven out like this. 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:47.080 And the first house we went to, remember it had 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.320 obviously been bought and sold and done up, and every 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:52.960 record of them living there. 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:54.320 We've just been quite clean. 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:55.000 Yeah. 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:56.960 And then the second house, it wasn't a house, it 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.640 was a unit in a block that had row after 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.360 row after row of units. And we knocked doors and 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.160 got nowhere. And then when we got back, I tried 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.880 the strata agent and I said, is Brendan living there? 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.160 And he had no record of Brendan ever being there. 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.720 And then the third place was an apartment block with 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:18.240 six units in it, and we knocked all the doors 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:21.200 and no one there had heard of them either, so 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:24.320 we weren't able to find Brendan. 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:27.120 Yeah. 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.400 Since this afternoon in the car with Nina, I've spoken 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.000 to someone who said they would pass on my phone 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:39.440 number to Brendan. And it's possible, Brendan that you're listening 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.960 to this, and if so, and you do want to talk, 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:47.160 just give me a call. Another reason we want to 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:50.040 talk to you, Brendan and to Carly is that when 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.560 you look at the disappearance of William Tyrell, there's one 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:58.600 decision that is the start of everything that follows. That's 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:03.120 the decision to take William off his biological parents and 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.800 put him in foster care. So, knowing what we know now, 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:13.079 it's easy to say that that was a bad decision, 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.040 or it was the decision that if it hadn't happened, 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:21.520 William wouldn't have disappeared. But that's different from knowing what 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:25.440 was known at the time, and at the time it 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:33.560 might not have been a bad decision. To understand if 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.520 it was a bad decision, you have to go back 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.280 to before when William was reported missing on the twelfth 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:45.600 of September twenty fourteen, to the other time William went missing, 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.640 this time when he was just a baby and when 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:54.040 it was his birth parents who took him and hid 0:03:54.080 --> 0:04:00.000 him from the police. I'm Dan Box and from New 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:06.520 dot Au. This is Witness William Tyrol Episode two, Looking 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:21.919 for Carly. After trying to find Brendan, we did contact 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:26.400 his mum, Natalie Collins. She's William's biological. 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:30.680 Grandmother, she's traditionally sort of been the spokesperson for the 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:31.760 biological family. 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.320 Well, that was kind of what I hoped that she'd 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:36.839 be up for talking, but it didn't work out that way. 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:39.960 I spoke to her. 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.640 And she said, yep, I'm happy to do an interview. 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.240 And then I called her back and she didn't answer. 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.479 So then I called her back a bit later and 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.320 she agreed to do an interview, but at a certain time, 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:55.240 and so I called her up. 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.960 She heard my voice and just hung up and she 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.800 hasn't answered the phone to me since. So then you 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:02.360 called her? 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:06.800 Yeah, So then I called her, Uh. 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:18.160 Hello, Hey, Natalie, Hey, going Okay. 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.320 It was a phone conversation, and the audio isn't great. 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:23.159 I'm recording, by the way. 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:26.720 I'll let you know every time otherwise, you know, I 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:27.400 get in trouble. 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:33.920 H Oh, sorry, I wasn't try. 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:35.479 If you hung up on me, no, no, no, it 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:36.039 cuts out? 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:37.320 Okay, good. 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.360 So did you listening to this interview? I think Nina 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:43.440 sounds nervous. 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:46.520 I felt she was very emotional. 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:51.240 Nina and Natalie are speaking the day after news broke 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.800 that the police are seeking to charge William's foster mother 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.240 over his disappearance, and so. 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:58.960 I was just a little bit worried going into it 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.240 how she was going to take the conversation or whether 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.000 it was a good time to have that conversation. 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.360 William's foster mother, who was in the house with him 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.560 at the time he went missing, insists she had nothing 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.600 to do with it. She's not as yet been charged. 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:20.160 Listening to Nina's conversation, it's pretty clear what Natalie thinks. 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.080 The thing is that they shouldn't have taken the kids 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.480 off them in the first place, and that's where it's 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:26.599 all going to start. 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.839 Natalie says the authorities were wrong to take William away 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:32.719 from his biological parents. 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:40.200 William was devoted to Brendan. I've seen William, I think 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.520 when he was taken off them, and then that day 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.960 that they pulled him upstairs in a prayering job from 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:46.440 the prayer and riding to Brinda's arms. 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.479 William was about nine months old when he was taken 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.280 from his birth parents. He was born on the twenty 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.240 sixth of June twenty eleven at the Royal north Shore 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:02.120 Hospital in Sydney. I don't know why, but Brendan's name 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.719 is not on the birth certificate. That box is just 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.359 left blank, and a court would later hear. There was 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:12.000 a history of drug use and of domestic violence between 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:17.640 Brendan and Carly. Both of them have criminal records. Brendan's 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.560 been arrested dozens of times, and he's been in prison 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:24.000 on a few occasions, although the only dates I can 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:29.440 find for that are after William went missing. In their conversation, 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:34.120 Nina asks Natalie about the most recent search for William. 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:38.200 When there was the search back in twenty twenty one. 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.120 I read a quote from you that said you kind 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:43.880 of didn't feel like there was any point in what 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.440 they were doing, because you already knew at that point 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.640 that he was gone. 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.440 Have you born been up there? No, I haven't yet. Yeah. 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:54.720 Oh, you can't say that until you go up there, 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.600 and then then you'll see why you have to go 0:07:57.760 --> 0:07:59.720 to the house and actually see the house, and then 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:01.200 you'll understand why. 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.640 What did you think about Natalie telling you that you 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.040 have to go to the road where William went missing 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.360 to understand how she feels about it. 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.800 I didn't fully understand what she meant by that, I 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.080 haven't been there yet. You've been there at least once 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:20.080 a few times. 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:21.560 Four times now and. 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.920 We are going to go soon. But did it give 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:24.560 you some insight? 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:28.720 Yeah, I think Natalie's right. You do have to see 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.840 that house, because it's not until you see it and 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:37.360 you realize it's a dead end street. It's dead quiet. 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.360 There's no way you'd go there unless you had a 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.040 reason to be on that street at that time. And 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.640 it's when you see that that you realize the chance 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:51.839 of a chance subduction. It just it's almost impossible. Yeah, 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.440 the only people could go there have a reason and 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.320 then almost certainly someone sees them on the street. And 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:02.080 I think Natalie right in saying that you have to 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:06.000 see the place to understand how she feels. And the 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:10.200 way Natalie feels is angry. 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:15.199 It's killed me three years old. He just vanishes from 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:16.079 the face of the earth. 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.600 Angry, I think at the damage done to her family 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.880 after William was taken away from them. 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.480 Like all the shit that I have been through from 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.800 day one, Like Brendan, he lost his son. 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.120 I lost my son and I lost myself as well. 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.000 What do you mean by that, You've lost yourself. 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:41.920 I'm not going to talk to you anymore. 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.760 It's a waste of time, you know, Like what do 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.280 you mean if you were in my shoes, you wouldn't 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:48.880 even ask that? 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:51.000 It's all fucked up. 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:56.120 All your reporters are the same. I don't I haven't 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:57.680 talld to you reporters for a long time. 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:04.280 Christian. No, you're hounding me, and I'm talking from my heart. 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.840 No one, you haven't been in my shoes. I'm sick 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:09.080 of it. 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.000 I'm sick to death of it, Like this has been 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:12.480 my life for ten years. 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:14.679 My son has been in figging. 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:21.520 Jail, he's been homeless, He's buddy hit rock bottom, rock bottom. 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:22.520 After ten years. 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.160 You wouldn't believe what that child's been through or what 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.480 I've been through with him. 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:32.440 And who cares about that? No one? And I've done 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:40.040 it on my own and I'm still doing it well. 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:41.760 I don't want to hound you, Natalie, and I don't 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:43.760 want to pretend that I do know what you're going through. 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:45.240 That's why I'm asking. 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.840 Like you reporters are all the same, like daily mail shit, 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.160 it's all crap. You know, you've got to. 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.520 Be honest and help someone. You don't fucking put crap 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:56.240 on there. 0:10:57.760 --> 0:10:58.080 Anyway. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.720 I don't want this recording. I'm done, Okay, I'll stop recording. 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:13.040 I wanted to ask you, how did you feel? 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.440 How do you feel about us using that tape of 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:19.160 that conversation in this series. 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:25.360 Yeah, look, I'm not comfortable. I mean, I am COMFORTAB. 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.000 It's hard, isn't it. I kn't even answer that question properly. 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.679 I guess the part of me that will be uncomfortable 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.880 with that running is just mostly kind of ego. I 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:45.360 think why because I really don't like to push people 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.160 when they're not comfortable. I like to put their safety 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:51.720 and their emotional safety first. 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.800 So to have her respond. 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.439 Really negatively to something I said, I don't feel good 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:00.240 about that at all. 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:03.440 You know, I felt awful that happened. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.199 Do you understand why I wanted to use it? 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:12.960 Yeah, I mean I think so you tell me why 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:13.600 you want to use it. 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.720 I want to use it because it puts you on 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:21.960 the spot, and I know that, and I appreciate that's hard. 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.240 But the other thing it does is it demonstrates the 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.480 sheer emotion and the sheared trauma that those close to 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:34.640 William have gone through and is still going through now 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.760 as a result of him going missing and there being 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.000 no resolution of what happened to him. 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.000 Yeah, and I think that is important that in this 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:48.720 case that has become headlines and new specials and social 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.400 media chatter, and at the heart of it, there is 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:59.880 absolute grief and no thing, nothing we can say, you 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.400 and me can describe that better than that tape of 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:07.359 Natalie getting upset and getting angry. 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:09.400 There's no way I understand. 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.840 I absolutely don't understand, and I'm actually I'm fine with 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.360 her getting angry at me. I didn't feel angry at 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:19.400 her for getting angry at me, because I think if 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.160 we can try and put ourselves in her shoes a 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:29.600 little bit, they've really been quite powerless throughout this situation, right, 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:32.319 They've been powerless since. 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:36.920 Losing their child to the foster system. 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:41.240 Then they're powerless through the police investigation. They're pretty powerless 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.800 through the media reporting when we weren't allowed to say 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.959 who they were. Again the police and the government got 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.600 in the way and sort of said this is what 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:52.880 can be said, this can't be said. So they've been 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.200 censored sort of from being able to say what they want. 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.600 So I think to be that powerless. 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:07.280 And then to have yet another journalist calling you, I 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.480 don't know at such a low point, I can get 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:12.880 why she's angry, and I think it's fair. 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:20.320 After that first phone call, Nina sent Natalie a text 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:25.600 message just saying sorry, and she didn't hear back and 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:30.360 didn't talk to Natalie again. But another producer, Emily, tried 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:31.120 calling instead. 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:37.600 Okay, you can still hear me. Yep, perfect, And so 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:43.880 you're happy for the phone call to be recorded, yep, yeap, wonderful. 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.280 So we were just talking. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.440 The conversation had a similar start. They're talking about the 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.400 impact of William's loss. 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.320 What is done to my family from day one has 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.520 stuffed all of us up, and I lost my son 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:00.280 and I lost myself on the way. 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.680 Hmm. I'm so sorry to hear Natalie, it must be 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:05.960 absolutely awful. 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.160 How would you deal with it if it was your son, 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:10.040 it was your daughter. 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:12.320 I can't even imagine. 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:17.080 Ten years is a long time, you know, ten years 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.360 of my life that no one should really have to 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:19.800 go through. 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:22.200 How are you going. 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:29.720 Like it's a long story, this bloody story, you know, 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:36.160 like it's a long drawn out, sad story. But the 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:39.960 thing is that these dogs people, they failed to do 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:44.320 their job properly, because this shouldn't happen these days with 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.800 poster care children like William was only a little baby 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:50.720 three years old. He vanished from the face of the earth. 0:15:51.840 --> 0:16:16.600 M okay, so we're pulling up shortly to the first address, 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:18.320 and what's your plan? 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:23.280 Honestly, I don't think we overthinking. 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:28.440 We are here to try and talk to Karli, to 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.760 tell her what we're doing and why we're doing it, 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:37.320 and just be as straightforward and as honest as possible 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.920 with her. 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.880 What we're not going to do is run up and 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.920 shove a microphone at our face. If you walked up 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.440 to my house with a microphone. 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.920 Recording to talk about your trial. 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:53.680 I wouldn't talk to you. 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.600 But if it gets hostile, do you want me to 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:58.720 get out and record? 0:16:59.560 --> 0:16:59.680 Oh? 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:01.600 Forgets hostile, You're going to be sitting. 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.040 Inside the car, not going to be standing by recording it. 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:08.480 I don't think it's going to get hostile. 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:14.159 Is this it? 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.840 Yeah? It is? Are you going to stay in the car? 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:22.399 What would you prefer I do? 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.000 Stay in the car? I think it's fairer on Carly. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.440 What cannot have felt fair on Carly was the way 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:39.600 having William taken from her meant other people like caseworkers 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.480 or the state government Department of Family and Community Services 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:49.200 effectively passed judgment on her as a mother. William's foster 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:53.239 placement is recorded in hundreds of pages of documents, and 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.959 one of these notes that, at the time William was taken, 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:02.240 his birth parents quote maintained a high level of denial 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:07.800 regarding domestic violence in their relationship. The documents also say 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:13.760 that Carly had quote unresolved attachment needs affecting her parenting 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.720 capacity and looked to her children for what the documents 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:24.320 call developmentally inappropriate care and comfort. But nowhere in any 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.440 of those documents that I've seen, can you see what 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.199 Carl has to say about that. 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:34.119 I think that's the wrong house. 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.040 So there was no one there, and I spoke to 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:42.920 the neighbor, and the neighbors said, it's not a. 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:44.679 Carli who lives there, but it is a tyrl. 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.320 Okay. 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:54.520 She looked a little bit circumspect. 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:55.280 Because you're just a strange man in the middle of 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:55.600 the door. 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:00.000 And I'm probably not the first strange reporter he's turned out, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:01.720 but their house eyes over the years. 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:04.560 But no, so I think we try. 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:11.119 Okay, the next address on ws to house two, or. 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:14.480 Be honest, it probably wasn't until I went to knock 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.160 on the door that I realized how actually faintly sick 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:18.160 I feel doing this. 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:21.760 Help me through. 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:22.640 It's just. 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.400 It's just that you know, if it is the right person, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.680 you just know it's going to be unpleasant for them. 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:32.120 Yeah. 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.679 Yeah, this is probably the most confronting way you'd have 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:36.239 to do it. 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:43.360 So I left a letter there. We'll see, all right, 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:45.440 what's the next address. 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.000 One thing that makes the decision to take William off 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:54.199 Carly and into care seemed more open to question is 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:58.960 that Carly had other children who stayed with her, and 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.680 as far as I know, they're still with her. Carl 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.040 was also pregnant when William was taken and has had 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:11.200 other children since. It feels like each time she has 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:15.639 a child. The Daily Mail writes articles based on Facebook photos, 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:22.160 and in those photos the family look happy. Natalie, William's 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:26.440 biological grandmother, says that was not the case for William 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:27.960 with his foster parents. 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:32.600 Like when William was in their kid black eyes, skinny, 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:37.159 no shoes on. You know, we used to have supervised 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.840 visits and my son was too scared to love his 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.520 children because he knew if they go home, they're going 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:47.960 to be in trouble. For that, How is that how 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:49.440 does that work out? 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:55.680 Natalie is really critical of William's foster parents, and particularly 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:57.920 critical of his foster mother. 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.159 Then she stopped everything allowed to give them Lollie's not 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:03.639 allowed to give them kinder, the process not lawed to 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.639 give them the food that we were bringing. She pecked 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:11.960 the lunches, dry pasta, no in costume clothes, all the 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.240 time barking her orders. 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:20.320 You know, a lot of what Natalie says about William's 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:25.560 foster parents we're not going to repeat here because what's 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:29.440 not certain is whether what she's saying is fair or accurate. 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:33.440 Some of what she says is right, like how William 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:37.399 was encouraged to call his birth parents by their first names, 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:41.119 Brendan and Carly. But read through the records of William's 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.960 foster care and you see that once William started using 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:49.560 first names, it was his caseworkers who supported this, not 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:53.919 his foster parents, and the idea behind it was to 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:59.200 help William adjust to his foster family. At other times, 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:05.400 Natalie's version of what happened contrasts completely to conversations I've 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.720 had with other people or with documents from the time. 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:13.199 In their eyes, it was like they don't have a 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.880 mother and father. You know, you go and you call 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.359 them Brendan and Carli. You don't call them mam and 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:20.800 dad because they're not your mom and dad. We are like, 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:21.560 who does all that? 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:27.560 Every visit by William's caseworker is documented saying how William seemed, 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:30.840 what he was wearing, his general health, the fact he 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:34.359 liked his daycare, how he and his caseworker were playing 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.800 together building a train set. As he grows up, the 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:41.399 documents record that Williams starts going to soccer training on 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:45.639 a Monday and dance class on a Friday. His placement 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:49.520 with his foster parents is described as being very stable, 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:54.200 and after eighteen months, the documents record that Williams started 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.359 saying his foster parents are his parents. 0:22:58.080 --> 0:22:59.760 So there's a lot to answer for. 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:04.600 Natalie keeps coming back to the allegation that William was 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:09.080 mistreated by his foster parents. But I haven't found any 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:11.360 real evidence of that in the files. 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:13.520 How did William get a black life? 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:16.480 There is a record in the files of William getting 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.199 a black eye, In fact, there's pages about it. It 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:23.919 was in July twenty fourteen, just after his third birthday. 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:26.359 Oh, he fell off my lap. No, it was a 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:27.160 black eye. 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:30.800 The foster records say William fell on a coffee table 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:33.520 while crawling on his foster mother's lap. 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:37.480 You don't get a black wife from falling from anee. 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:40.160 And speaking as a dad of three kids do pick 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:43.440 up injuries that way. They fall off your lap, or 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:47.679 run into tables or trip downstairs. The files show the 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:51.040 foster mother reported this fall to William's caseworker the next 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:55.119 morning and sent through some photographs of the bruising. She 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:58.280 also took him to the Royal north Shore Hospital. The 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:01.479 doctors noted ahema tone, which is a pool of blood 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.159 under the skin, and swelling to his cheek. There was 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:07.760 no sign of concussion. He didn't need an X ray, 0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:12.680