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Speaker 1: One Monday a couple of months ago, I got into

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Speaker 1: the car with Nina, who's their producer.

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Speaker 2: On this series, checking my levels again.

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Speaker 1: Pulled out into the traffic and went looking for someone

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Speaker 1: we've been trying to talk to for the past eighteen months.

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Speaker 2: Where are we going? What are we doing?

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Speaker 3: Dan?

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Speaker 1: We're going to try and find William's birth mother, Carly.

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Speaker 1: And the reason I want to talk to.

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Speaker 4: Carly is.

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Speaker 1: Really just to let her know what we're doing and

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Speaker 1: why we're doing it, and to give her the chance

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Speaker 1: to tell us.

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Speaker 4: What she thinks of what happened. And the reason to

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Speaker 4: do that.

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Speaker 1: Is because if it was my child, I would want

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Speaker 1: someone to contact me before doing this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but they're not an easy family to get hold of.

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Speaker 5: No, So what we're doing today is our last option really,

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Speaker 5: because we've tried contacting Carly through social media, We've tried

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Speaker 5: contacting Carlie on the phone, We've tried several furgn numbers.

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Speaker 5: So our last effort, because we really do want to

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Speaker 5: make sure Carli is at least aware of this podcast,

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Speaker 5: even if she doesn't want to speak to us, We're

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Speaker 5: going to door knock.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, We've got three addresses and we're going to knock

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Speaker 1: each of those houses and ask if she's there and

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Speaker 1: ask if.

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Speaker 4: She wants to talk to us. And we've done this

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Speaker 4: for Brendan as well. It is William's dad. You we've

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Speaker 4: been driven out like this.

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Speaker 1: And the first house we went to, remember it had

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Speaker 1: obviously been bought and sold and done up, and every

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Speaker 1: record of them living there.

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Speaker 4: We've just been quite clean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then the second house, it wasn't a house, it

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Speaker 1: was a unit in a block that had row after

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Speaker 1: row after row of units. And we knocked doors and

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Speaker 1: got nowhere. And then when we got back, I tried

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Speaker 1: the strata agent and I said, is Brendan living there?

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Speaker 1: And he had no record of Brendan ever being there.

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Speaker 1: And then the third place was an apartment block with

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Speaker 1: six units in it, and we knocked all the doors

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Speaker 1: and no one there had heard of them either, so

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Speaker 1: we weren't able to find Brendan.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Since this afternoon in the car with Nina, I've spoken

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Speaker 1: to someone who said they would pass on my phone

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Speaker 1: number to Brendan. And it's possible, Brendan that you're listening

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Speaker 1: to this, and if so, and you do want to talk,

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Speaker 1: just give me a call. Another reason we want to

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Speaker 1: talk to you, Brendan and to Carly is that when

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Speaker 1: you look at the disappearance of William Tyrell, there's one

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Speaker 1: decision that is the start of everything that follows. That's

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Speaker 1: the decision to take William off his biological parents and

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Speaker 1: put him in foster care. So, knowing what we know now,

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Speaker 1: it's easy to say that that was a bad decision,

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Speaker 1: or it was the decision that if it hadn't happened,

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Speaker 1: William wouldn't have disappeared. But that's different from knowing what

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Speaker 1: was known at the time, and at the time it

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Speaker 1: might not have been a bad decision. To understand if

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Speaker 1: it was a bad decision, you have to go back

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Speaker 1: to before when William was reported missing on the twelfth

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Speaker 1: of September twenty fourteen, to the other time William went missing,

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Speaker 1: this time when he was just a baby and when

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Speaker 1: it was his birth parents who took him and hid

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Speaker 1: him from the police. I'm Dan Box and from New

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Speaker 1: dot Au. This is Witness William Tyrol Episode two, Looking

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Speaker 1: for Carly. After trying to find Brendan, we did contact

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Speaker 1: his mum, Natalie Collins. She's William's biological.

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Speaker 5: Grandmother, she's traditionally sort of been the spokesperson for the

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Speaker 5: biological family.

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Speaker 1: Well, that was kind of what I hoped that she'd

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Speaker 1: be up for talking, but it didn't work out that way.

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Speaker 4: I spoke to her.

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Speaker 1: And she said, yep, I'm happy to do an interview.

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Speaker 4: And then I called her back and she didn't answer.

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Speaker 1: So then I called her back a bit later and

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Speaker 1: she agreed to do an interview, but at a certain time,

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Speaker 1: and so I called her up.

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Speaker 4: She heard my voice and just hung up and she

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Speaker 4: hasn't answered the phone to me since. So then you

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Speaker 4: called her?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So then I called her, Uh.

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Speaker 7: Hello, Hey, Natalie, Hey, going Okay.

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Speaker 1: It was a phone conversation, and the audio isn't great.

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Speaker 2: I'm recording, by the way.

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Speaker 5: I'll let you know every time otherwise, you know, I

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Speaker 5: get in trouble.

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Speaker 2: H Oh, sorry, I wasn't try.

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Speaker 3: If you hung up on me, no, no, no, it

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Speaker 3: cuts out?

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Speaker 2: Okay, good.

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Speaker 1: So did you listening to this interview? I think Nina

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Speaker 1: sounds nervous.

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Speaker 2: I felt she was very emotional.

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Speaker 1: Nina and Natalie are speaking the day after news broke

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Speaker 1: that the police are seeking to charge William's foster mother

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Speaker 1: over his disappearance, and so.

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Speaker 5: I was just a little bit worried going into it

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Speaker 5: how she was going to take the conversation or whether

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Speaker 5: it was a good time to have that conversation.

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Speaker 1: William's foster mother, who was in the house with him

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Speaker 1: at the time he went missing, insists she had nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with it. She's not as yet been charged.

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Speaker 1: Listening to Nina's conversation, it's pretty clear what Natalie thinks.

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Speaker 6: The thing is that they shouldn't have taken the kids

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Speaker 6: off them in the first place, and that's where it's

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Speaker 6: all going to start.

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Speaker 1: Natalie says the authorities were wrong to take William away

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Speaker 1: from his biological parents.

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Speaker 6: William was devoted to Brendan. I've seen William, I think

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Speaker 6: when he was taken off them, and then that day

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Speaker 6: that they pulled him upstairs in a prayering job from

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Speaker 6: the prayer and riding to Brinda's arms.

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Speaker 1: William was about nine months old when he was taken

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Speaker 1: from his birth parents. He was born on the twenty

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Speaker 1: sixth of June twenty eleven at the Royal north Shore

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Speaker 1: Hospital in Sydney. I don't know why, but Brendan's name

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Speaker 1: is not on the birth certificate. That box is just

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Speaker 1: left blank, and a court would later hear. There was

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Speaker 1: a history of drug use and of domestic violence between

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Speaker 1: Brendan and Carly. Both of them have criminal records. Brendan's

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Speaker 1: been arrested dozens of times, and he's been in prison

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Speaker 1: on a few occasions, although the only dates I can

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Speaker 1: find for that are after William went missing. In their conversation,

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Speaker 1: Nina asks Natalie about the most recent search for William.

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Speaker 7: When there was the search back in twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 7: I read a quote from you that said you kind

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Speaker 7: of didn't feel like there was any point in what

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Speaker 7: they were doing, because you already knew at that point

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Speaker 7: that he was gone.

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Speaker 3: Have you born been up there? No, I haven't yet. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Oh, you can't say that until you go up there,

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Speaker 6: and then then you'll see why you have to go

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Speaker 6: to the house and actually see the house, and then

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Speaker 6: you'll understand why.

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Speaker 1: What did you think about Natalie telling you that you

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Speaker 1: have to go to the road where William went missing

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Speaker 1: to understand how she feels about it.

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Speaker 5: I didn't fully understand what she meant by that, I

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Speaker 5: haven't been there yet. You've been there at least once

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Speaker 5: a few times.

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Speaker 4: Four times now and.

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Speaker 2: We are going to go soon. But did it give

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Speaker 2: you some insight?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Natalie's right. You do have to see

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Speaker 1: that house, because it's not until you see it and

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Speaker 1: you realize it's a dead end street. It's dead quiet.

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Speaker 1: There's no way you'd go there unless you had a

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Speaker 1: reason to be on that street at that time. And

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Speaker 1: it's when you see that that you realize the chance

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Speaker 1: of a chance subduction. It just it's almost impossible. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the only people could go there have a reason and

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Speaker 1: then almost certainly someone sees them on the street. And

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Speaker 1: I think Natalie right in saying that you have to

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Speaker 1: see the place to understand how she feels. And the

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Speaker 1: way Natalie feels is angry.

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Speaker 6: It's killed me three years old. He just vanishes from

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Speaker 6: the face of the earth.

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Speaker 1: Angry, I think at the damage done to her family

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Speaker 1: after William was taken away from them.

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Speaker 6: Like all the shit that I have been through from

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Speaker 6: day one, Like Brendan, he lost his son.

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Speaker 3: I lost my son and I lost myself as well.

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Speaker 7: What do you mean by that, You've lost yourself.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to talk to you anymore.

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Speaker 6: It's a waste of time, you know, Like what do

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Speaker 6: you mean if you were in my shoes, you wouldn't

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Speaker 6: even ask that?

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Speaker 3: It's all fucked up.

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Speaker 6: All your reporters are the same. I don't I haven't

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Speaker 6: talld to you reporters for a long time.

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Speaker 3: Christian. No, you're hounding me, and I'm talking from my heart.

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Speaker 3: No one, you haven't been in my shoes. I'm sick

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Speaker 3: of it.

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Speaker 6: I'm sick to death of it, Like this has been

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Speaker 6: my life for ten years.

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Speaker 3: My son has been in figging.

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Speaker 6: Jail, he's been homeless, He's buddy hit rock bottom, rock bottom.

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Speaker 3: After ten years.

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Speaker 6: You wouldn't believe what that child's been through or what

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Speaker 6: I've been through with him.

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Speaker 3: And who cares about that? No one? And I've done

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Speaker 3: it on my own and I'm still doing it well.

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Speaker 7: I don't want to hound you, Natalie, and I don't

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Speaker 7: want to pretend that I do know what you're going through.

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Speaker 2: That's why I'm asking.

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Speaker 6: Like you reporters are all the same, like daily mail shit,

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Speaker 6: it's all crap. You know, you've got to.

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Speaker 3: Be honest and help someone. You don't fucking put crap

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Speaker 3: on there.

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Speaker 6: Anyway.

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Speaker 3: I don't want this recording. I'm done, Okay, I'll stop recording.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to ask you, how did you feel?

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Speaker 1: How do you feel about us using that tape of

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Speaker 1: that conversation in this series.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, look, I'm not comfortable. I mean, I am COMFORTAB.

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Speaker 5: It's hard, isn't it. I kn't even answer that question properly.

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Speaker 5: I guess the part of me that will be uncomfortable

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Speaker 5: with that running is just mostly kind of ego. I

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Speaker 5: think why because I really don't like to push people

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Speaker 5: when they're not comfortable. I like to put their safety

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Speaker 5: and their emotional safety first.

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Speaker 2: So to have her respond.

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Speaker 5: Really negatively to something I said, I don't feel good

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Speaker 5: about that at all.

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Speaker 2: You know, I felt awful that happened.

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Speaker 4: Do you understand why I wanted to use it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think so you tell me why

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Speaker 2: you want to use it.

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Speaker 4: I want to use it because it puts you on

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Speaker 4: the spot, and I know that, and I appreciate that's hard.

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Speaker 4: But the other thing it does is it demonstrates the

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Speaker 4: sheer emotion and the sheared trauma that those close to

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Speaker 4: William have gone through and is still going through now

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Speaker 4: as a result of him going missing and there being

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Speaker 4: no resolution of what happened to him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that is important that in this

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Speaker 1: case that has become headlines and new specials and social

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Speaker 1: media chatter, and at the heart of it, there is

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Speaker 1: absolute grief and no thing, nothing we can say, you

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Speaker 1: and me can describe that better than that tape of

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Speaker 1: Natalie getting upset and getting angry.

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Speaker 2: There's no way I understand.

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Speaker 5: I absolutely don't understand, and I'm actually I'm fine with

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Speaker 5: her getting angry at me. I didn't feel angry at

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Speaker 5: her for getting angry at me, because I think if

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Speaker 5: we can try and put ourselves in her shoes a

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Speaker 5: little bit, they've really been quite powerless throughout this situation, right,

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Speaker 5: They've been powerless since.

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Speaker 2: Losing their child to the foster system.

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Speaker 5: Then they're powerless through the police investigation. They're pretty powerless

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Speaker 5: through the media reporting when we weren't allowed to say

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Speaker 5: who they were. Again the police and the government got

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Speaker 5: in the way and sort of said this is what

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Speaker 5: can be said, this can't be said. So they've been

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Speaker 5: censored sort of from being able to say what they want.

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Speaker 2: So I think to be that powerless.

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Speaker 5: And then to have yet another journalist calling you, I

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Speaker 5: don't know at such a low point, I can get

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Speaker 5: why she's angry, and I think it's fair.

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Speaker 1: After that first phone call, Nina sent Natalie a text

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Speaker 1: message just saying sorry, and she didn't hear back and

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Speaker 1: didn't talk to Natalie again. But another producer, Emily, tried

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Speaker 1: calling instead.

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Speaker 8: Okay, you can still hear me. Yep, perfect, And so

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Speaker 8: you're happy for the phone call to be recorded, yep, yeap, wonderful.

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Speaker 8: So we were just talking.

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Speaker 1: The conversation had a similar start. They're talking about the

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Speaker 1: impact of William's loss.

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Speaker 6: What is done to my family from day one has

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Speaker 6: stuffed all of us up, and I lost my son

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Speaker 6: and I lost myself on the way.

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Speaker 8: Hmm. I'm so sorry to hear Natalie, it must be

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Speaker 8: absolutely awful.

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Speaker 6: How would you deal with it if it was your son,

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Speaker 6: it was your daughter.

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Speaker 8: I can't even imagine.

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Speaker 6: Ten years is a long time, you know, ten years

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Speaker 6: of my life that no one should really have to

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Speaker 6: go through.

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Speaker 8: How are you going.

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Speaker 6: Like it's a long story, this bloody story, you know,

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Speaker 6: like it's a long drawn out, sad story. But the

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Speaker 6: thing is that these dogs people, they failed to do

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Speaker 6: their job properly, because this shouldn't happen these days with

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Speaker 6: poster care children like William was only a little baby

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Speaker 6: three years old. He vanished from the face of the earth.

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Speaker 9: M okay, so we're pulling up shortly to the first address,

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Speaker 9: and what's your plan?

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Speaker 4: Honestly, I don't think we overthinking.

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Speaker 1: We are here to try and talk to Karli, to

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Speaker 1: tell her what we're doing and why we're doing it,

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Speaker 1: and just be as straightforward and as honest as possible

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Speaker 1: with her.

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Speaker 5: What we're not going to do is run up and

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Speaker 5: shove a microphone at our face. If you walked up

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Speaker 5: to my house with a microphone.

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Speaker 4: Recording to talk about your trial.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't talk to you.

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Speaker 9: But if it gets hostile, do you want me to

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Speaker 9: get out and record?

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Speaker 6: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Forgets hostile, You're going to be sitting.

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Speaker 2: Inside the car, not going to be standing by recording it.

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Speaker 4: I don't think it's going to get hostile.

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Speaker 2: Is this it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? It is? Are you going to stay in the car?

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Speaker 2: What would you prefer I do?

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Speaker 4: Stay in the car? I think it's fairer on Carly.

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Speaker 1: What cannot have felt fair on Carly was the way

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Speaker 1: having William taken from her meant other people like caseworkers

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Speaker 1: or the state government Department of Family and Community Services

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Speaker 1: effectively passed judgment on her as a mother. William's foster

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Speaker 1: placement is recorded in hundreds of pages of documents, and

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Speaker 1: one of these notes that, at the time William was taken,

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Speaker 1: his birth parents quote maintained a high level of denial

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Speaker 1: regarding domestic violence in their relationship. The documents also say

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Speaker 1: that Carly had quote unresolved attachment needs affecting her parenting

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Speaker 1: capacity and looked to her children for what the documents

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Speaker 1: call developmentally inappropriate care and comfort. But nowhere in any

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Speaker 1: of those documents that I've seen, can you see what

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Speaker 1: Carl has to say about that.

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Speaker 4: I think that's the wrong house.

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Speaker 1: So there was no one there, and I spoke to

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Speaker 1: the neighbor, and the neighbors said, it's not a.

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Speaker 4: Carli who lives there, but it is a tyrl.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 4: She looked a little bit circumspect.

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Speaker 9: Because you're just a strange man in the middle of

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Speaker 9: the door.

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Speaker 1: And I'm probably not the first strange reporter he's turned out,

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Speaker 1: but their house eyes over the years.

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Speaker 4: But no, so I think we try.

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Speaker 2: Okay, the next address on ws to house two, or.

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Speaker 1: Be honest, it probably wasn't until I went to knock

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Speaker 1: on the door that I realized how actually faintly sick

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Speaker 1: I feel doing this.

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Speaker 2: Help me through.

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Speaker 4: It's just.

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Speaker 1: It's just that you know, if it is the right person,

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Speaker 1: you just know it's going to be unpleasant for them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is probably the most confronting way you'd have

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Speaker 2: to do it.

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Speaker 4: So I left a letter there. We'll see, all right,

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Speaker 4: what's the next address.

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Speaker 1: One thing that makes the decision to take William off

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Speaker 1: Carly and into care seemed more open to question is

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Speaker 1: that Carly had other children who stayed with her, and

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Speaker 1: as far as I know, they're still with her. Carl

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00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 1: was also pregnant when William was taken and has had

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Speaker 1: other children since. It feels like each time she has

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Speaker 1: a child. The Daily Mail writes articles based on Facebook photos,

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Speaker 1: and in those photos the family look happy. Natalie, William's

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Speaker 1: biological grandmother, says that was not the case for William

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Speaker 1: with his foster parents.

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Speaker 6: Like when William was in their kid black eyes, skinny,

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Speaker 6: no shoes on. You know, we used to have supervised

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Speaker 6: visits and my son was too scared to love his

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Speaker 6: children because he knew if they go home, they're going

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Speaker 6: to be in trouble. For that, How is that how

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Speaker 6: does that work out?

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Speaker 1: Natalie is really critical of William's foster parents, and particularly

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Speaker 1: critical of his foster mother.

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Speaker 6: Then she stopped everything allowed to give them Lollie's not

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Speaker 6: allowed to give them kinder, the process not lawed to

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Speaker 6: give them the food that we were bringing. She pecked

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Speaker 6: the lunches, dry pasta, no in costume clothes, all the

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Speaker 6: time barking her orders.

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Speaker 1: You know, a lot of what Natalie says about William's

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Speaker 1: foster parents we're not going to repeat here because what's

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Speaker 1: not certain is whether what she's saying is fair or accurate.

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Speaker 1: Some of what she says is right, like how William

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Speaker 1: was encouraged to call his birth parents by their first names,

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Speaker 1: Brendan and Carly. But read through the records of William's

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Speaker 1: foster care and you see that once William started using

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Speaker 1: first names, it was his caseworkers who supported this, not

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Speaker 1: his foster parents, and the idea behind it was to

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Speaker 1: help William adjust to his foster family. At other times,

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Speaker 1: Natalie's version of what happened contrasts completely to conversations I've

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Speaker 1: had with other people or with documents from the time.

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Speaker 6: In their eyes, it was like they don't have a

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Speaker 6: mother and father. You know, you go and you call

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Speaker 6: them Brendan and Carli. You don't call them mam and

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Speaker 6: dad because they're not your mom and dad. We are like,

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Speaker 6: who does all that?

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Speaker 1: Every visit by William's caseworker is documented saying how William seemed,

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Speaker 1: what he was wearing, his general health, the fact he

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Speaker 1: liked his daycare, how he and his caseworker were playing

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Speaker 1: together building a train set. As he grows up, the

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Speaker 1: documents record that Williams starts going to soccer training on

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Speaker 1: a Monday and dance class on a Friday. His placement

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Speaker 1: with his foster parents is described as being very stable,

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Speaker 1: and after eighteen months, the documents record that Williams started

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Speaker 1: saying his foster parents are his parents.

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Speaker 6: So there's a lot to answer for.

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Speaker 1: Natalie keeps coming back to the allegation that William was

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Speaker 1: mistreated by his foster parents. But I haven't found any

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Speaker 1: real evidence of that in the files.

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Speaker 6: How did William get a black life?

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Speaker 1: There is a record in the files of William getting

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Speaker 1: a black eye, In fact, there's pages about it. It

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00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 1: was in July twenty fourteen, just after his third birthday.

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Speaker 6: Oh, he fell off my lap. No, it was a

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Speaker 6: black eye.

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Speaker 1: The foster records say William fell on a coffee table

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Speaker 1: while crawling on his foster mother's lap.

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Speaker 6: You don't get a black wife from falling from anee.

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Speaker 1: And speaking as a dad of three kids do pick

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00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 1: up injuries that way. They fall off your lap, or

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Speaker 1: run into tables or trip downstairs. The files show the

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Speaker 1: foster mother reported this fall to William's caseworker the next

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Speaker 1: morning and sent through some photographs of the bruising. She

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Speaker 1: also took him to the Royal north Shore Hospital. The

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Speaker 1: doctors noted ahema tone, which is a pool of blood

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00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: under the skin, and swelling to his cheek. There was

400
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: no sign of concussion. He didn't need an X ray,

401
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 1: and William was discharged a week later. The caseworker recorded

402
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 1: the bruise was going down and that William was not

403
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: in obvious pain or distressed. But two months later, on

404
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: the day that William goes missing, his foster father told

405
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Speaker 1: police that a week before, William had fallen backwards off

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Speaker 1: a stool and struggled to get back up, and those

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00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: records about William have since been used online and in

408
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Speaker 1: the mainstream media. Has reasons to say he wasn't okay

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Speaker 1: in the care of his foster parents.

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Speaker 6: There was heaps of reasons, you know, like William was

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00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 6: never seen. William was always happy. But the last time

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Speaker 6: I think Brendan seen him was in August and he

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00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 6: was crying and screaming. He didn't want to go back.

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Speaker 6: Not long that he vanished from the face of the earth.

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Speaker 6: Now you tell me that one you just like that

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00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 6: happened and then all of a sudden, three days or

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Speaker 6: four days later, the little boy's gone.

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Speaker 3: Hell.

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Speaker 1: Why In the years after William was taken from them,

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00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 1: other documents show support workers saying Brendan and Carly go

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00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: to huge lengths to do well in their parenting. Carly

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00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: is quoted as saying her entire life is turned towards

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00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: having the children return to their care. Brendan coped with

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00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: the stress of losing William by partly by working long

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00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: hours six days a week, the documents say. They say

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Speaker 1: he took part in a course called Choosing Change, which

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00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: is for men who've been violent or abusive, but Brendan's

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00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: said to have missed a couple of the sessions and

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00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: not really participated in the group discussions, so the course

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00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: organizer recommended that he start the course again.

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Speaker 8: Has William's father have you spoken to him?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 6: Yes, I have.

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Speaker 8: How does he feel about it all?

435
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 6: Oh? Well, I don't even know. He's trying to get

436
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 6: himself like he's getting better, do you know what I mean? Like,

437
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 6: but he's got a lot of support where he so,

438
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 6: you know, we talk about it, and you know, like

439
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 6: I feel bad for my son, like I just you know,

440
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 6: look at his life. His life has been turned upside

441
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 6: down since that poor little boy disappeared. He's still in rehab.

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00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 6: You know, he knocked himself around for quite a long time,

443
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 6: you know, punishing himself. And it really wasn't his fault.

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Speaker 6: He was a good dad, he was a good provider.

445
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 6: He loves his kids, you know. So and you know

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00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 6: he's worked hard to get where he is today.

447
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: How long has it been since you've done our door knock?

448
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 4: Less than a year. But the last time I did

449
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 4: the doorknock, no one answered. The last time I.

450
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: Did a doorknock for a family whose child had been

451
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: murdered or gone missing and actually got hold of them

452
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: was two or three years now.

453
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 4: And a lot of people hate doing it.

454
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: But I've never minded doing it, as long as you

455
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: are sufficiently respectful and sufficiently apologetic. And it doesn't always

456
00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: go well, it goes well more often than you'd.

457
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 4: Think it would.

458
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 10: All right, this is the second address. All right, if

459
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 10: she does want to talk, I'll give you a shower.

460
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: A week after their first conversation, Emily, the producer called

461
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: William's biological grandmother again.

462
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 8: Okay, can you hear me? Natalie? Yep, amazing, and you're

463
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 8: happy for me to record our chat?

464
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 6: Yeah?

465
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: This time the target of Natalie's criticism isn't only William's

466
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: foster mother, it's also Carly, who's in Natalie's sights.

467
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 8: I'd love to learn a little bit more about Brendan

468
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 8: and Carly's relationship. How did they first meet?

469
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 6: I don't even know like that. That was probably the

470
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 6: worst thing he ever did in his life, is meet her.

471
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 8: Oh, you weren't that fond of her?

472
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 6: No, she was. She had a lot of problems, a

473
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 6: lot of issues that girl.

474
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 8: Do you know how long they were together before they

475
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 8: had William?

476
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 6: Or they've been together for probably three years or something.

477
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 6: They were together for a long time. But she shouldn't

478
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 6: have ever had kids out lady either that's my opinion

479
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 6: as well.

480
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 8: So it was a bit of a turbulent relationship, would

481
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 8: you say.

482
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 6: It was a bit of like, well, Brendan was always

483
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 6: doing the right thing, you know, going to work, paying

484
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 6: the bills, and me and my daughter had to go

485
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 6: down there like twice a week to make sure he

486
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 6: could please come in the door and have a shower,

487
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 6: have dinner. And then after we left them, they started

488
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 6: fighting and then he's the people would call the police

489
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 6: and it was like, oh, he's got to go, you know,

490
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 6: but nothing nothing major. I mean I grew up in

491
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 6: that sort of environment. No one ran and said my

492
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 6: mother and father were fighting and blah blah blah.

493
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 8: How did it feel when Brendan Carly's photos were out

494
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 8: in the media and their names were used. Yeahs terrible

495
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 8: And the whole time, the foster parents, their identities were

496
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 8: all hidden.

497
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 6: Terrible. Brenda more than as bad as what everyone thought.

498
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 6: And you know, I was a decent mom, I wasn't

499
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 6: you know, I'm mount to your mama. I was a

500
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 6: decent Like do you think he had a dinner mother?

501
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 6: I know he didn't. He had a good up Britney,

502
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 6: who was a good you know kid, but met the

503
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 6: wrong person.

504
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: Like with what Natalie says about William's foster mother. Some

505
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: of the things she says about Carly, we're not repeating

506
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: here because we're not able to say they're right, or

507
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: they contrast with the evidence we've got from elsewhere, and

508
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: all you're left with is one person's opinion on another,

509
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: in this case, Brendan's mum's opinion on Carly as a mother.

510
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: And that's another reason to want to talk to Carly herself.

511
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: Nothing again, no one there, A couple of cars in

512
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: the driveway, couple of motorbikes, one of them is being

513
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: worked on, so I thought someone might be there, But

514
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: no answer at all. So I left a letter under

515
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: the door. Okay, driving away from the second house. I

516
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: don't doubt Carly wanted to be a good mum. Among

517
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: the documents from William's time in foster care is one

518
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: saying that Carly told one caseworker she only agreed to

519
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,719
Speaker 1: having William in long term care so that she and

520
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: Brendan could focus on parenting their remaining children.

521
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,959
Speaker 8: Well, what do you remember about William as a little baby?

522
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 6: Oh? I was always happy. He was never seen like

523
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 6: always happy, you know, happy, happy baby Helsey. We would

524
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 6: go there for one hour supervised vidiots, sat down, had

525
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 6: a picnic or like kinds surprises and lollipops and stuff.

526
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,959
Speaker 6: But we're allowed to have that or this crap happens.

527
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 6: So with William, like every time you see in Britan,

528
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 6: he just loved him and screaming and crying to go home.

529
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: Okay, So there are different versions of these contact visits.

530
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: There's Natalie Collins version and then there's the written version.

531
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: In the documents of William's time in foster care, the

532
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: biological parents were allowed of these contact visits a year,

533
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: for one hour each. Natalie describes William screaming and crying

534
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: when he had to leave them, but the written records

535
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: from the time say quote there were no observed signs

536
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: of distress or sadness when William separated from his parents.

537
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: Those words appear in the records twice for different visits.

538
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: There are records saying that William became anxious or hyperactive

539
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: or aggressive, slapping and punching his foster care as, he

540
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: was described as defiant or having oppositional behavior, and he

541
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: had nightmares. But all of this seems to happen mostly

542
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: just after these contact visits and reading through it seems

543
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: more of a response to the difficulty of meeting different

544
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: sets of parents, You find yourself starting to imagine what

545
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: was going through a three year old's mind. On the

546
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: morning of their last contact visit, Williams recorded as saying

547
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: he didn't want to go, but he got excited when

548
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 1: told it was at Chipmunks, which is a play center

549
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: with a huge maze with different levels and nets, and

550
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: it is full of obstacles. It would be the last

551
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 1: time William saw his birth parents, Carly and Brendan. Ten

552
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: days later, William disappeared, And so.

553
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 8: Carly and Brendan don't have any contact.

554
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:27,959
Speaker 6: Yeah.

555
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 8: Do you mind me asking when did their relationship.

556
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 6: End the day that William went missing?

557
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 8: That very day?

558
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 6: Yep, that was the end of it.

559
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 8: Was William's disappearance a contributor to that.

560
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, if William.

561
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 8: Didn't go missing. Do you think Brendan and Carly might

562
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 8: still be together today?

563
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 6: Oh? No, I think so?

564
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 8: You know thinks how you don't hope so?

565
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 3: Do so?

566
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 8: Do you know roughly how old Brendan and Carli were

567
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 8: when they met.

568
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 6: I think Carlie was only like seventeen or something, and

569
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 6: Brendan moved. I don't know. I'm about twenty two or something,

570
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 6: only young, very silly. You can't change some people, you know.

571
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 6: I'm just worry about why dudes? You know.

572
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 8: What's your biggest worry about them?

573
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 6: I'm always worrying than Adam.

574
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's a mother's instinct, worry about your kids.

575
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's right.

576
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: The more I look at everything that's happened since William's disappearance,

577
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: so much of it seems to come down to different

578
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: kinds of judgment on motherhood. Who's a good parent, and

579
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: particularly who is a good mother. For Carly, having the

580
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: state government come in and take her child way must

581
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,439
Speaker 1: have felt like someone saying you're not good enough mother,

582
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: And as a parent, that feels wrong. I mean, who

583
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: really gets to make decisions about your kids, which might

584
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: explain why in the months before William went missing, after

585
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: his biological family first learned that the government was planning

586
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: to take him, Brendan and Carly and Natalie they took

587
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 1: William and they hid.

588
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 6: I had them for three months after I knew they're

589
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 6: in the are.

590
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:40,439
Speaker 8: You talking about before William went into foster care? When

591
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 8: ye when took William.

592
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 6: It was me, it wasn't he. So I them really

593
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 6: good for three months and then they got caught.

594
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: Carl, Brendan and William lived with Natalie for weeks during

595
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: this time, and Natalie, as she arranged it.

596
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 6: I arranged the call.

597
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 8: You're the mastermind.

598
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's right, and so you were. I should have

599
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 6: taken in myself. I should have just tugging myself in

600
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 6: the nile. We've been able to take him off me.

601
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 6: That's all I should have done.

602
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: This was in February twenty twelve, when the state government

603
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: Department of Family and Community Services, which is also known

604
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: as FACTS, asked police to help find William. So a

605
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: police sergeant went to Carl's address and there was no

606
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: one there. The police went to another address they had

607
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: for William's biological grandmother, but the person who answered the

608
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: door said they didn't know either Carli or the grandmother.

609
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: So a caseworker called four different telephone numbers they had

610
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,919
Speaker 1: on file for the family, and all of them were disconnected.

611
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: They called a fifth, but incoming calls were restricted. Back

612
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: in the car with Nina, we're still involved in our

613
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: own search.

614
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 5: Number three is the one I think is most likely

615
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 5: okay to be her house currently? Why do you think,

616
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 5: because we are aware that other journalists have been at

617
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 5: this property in the last year.

618
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 4: And have seen her there, and how did that go?

619
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: Not well?

620
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 4: Not well?

621
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 5: Well, there's photos of that journalist being pushed away from

622
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 5: the house by friends or relatives.

623
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: As the days passed and William stayed hidden with his family,

624
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: the police kept trying different addresses. You had plain closed.

625
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: Detectives canvassing the neighbors, just knocking on doors. The police

626
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: tried the extended family. A nurse arrived for a regular

627
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: appointment with Carly, but no one answered.

628
00:38:54,360 --> 00:39:00,280
Speaker 5: Here we are is it number eighth?

629
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 4: I'm glad you told me that thing about how badly

630
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 4: it when last time? All right?

631
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 3: Yeah?

632
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,399
Speaker 4: Forward at you can see the.

633
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: Door, yea, as if they do come out and shove you. Ay,

634
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: I'm going to get out of the car. Are you good?

635
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 4: Yeah?

636
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 6: Yeah.

637
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: William was officially listed as a missing person. A month later.

638
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 1: The police did catch up with his biological father, Brandon.

639
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 6: Remember the day, like this's come to me. It's all

640
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 6: over now, mum. They arrested him and arrested both of them,

641
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 6: actually took William away, and William was screaming and crying, and.

642
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 8: Were you there the moment that the police came and

643
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 8: arrested and Carly.

644
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 6: No, it was at work.

645
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 8: What was is it like going to work that morning?

646
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 8: You've got your grandkids and Brendan and Carly in the

647
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 8: in the granny flight out the back, and then you

648
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 8: come home and your whole life's being uprooted.

649
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 6: The sad things is the story is very sad. From

650
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 6: the engineer.

651
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: After baby William was found being hidden by his birth parents,

652
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: he was taken to hospital and found to be medically well.

653
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: The next day, the sixteenth of March twenty twelve, William

654
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: was placed with authorized cares, and a year later, April

655
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, a court ordered William to remain in care

656
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: technically under the parental responsibility of a government minister until

657
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 1: he turned eighteen, meaning that court and the state government

658
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: did not anticipate William ever returning to Carly and Brendan.

659
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: And there are two ways of looking at that decision.

660
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: What we know now that he would disappear again for

661
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: good this time, and what was known then.

662
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 4: No answer and all the curtains are drawn.

663
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: I looked over the back fence and the garden's pretty overgrown,

664
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: but there are some kids toys that there's a paddling

665
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 1: pool hanging over the back deck, and you can see

666
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: through one of the windows that the kitchen's got the

667
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: stuff in it, so someone is living there.

668
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 4: So I left a letter hopefully she'll call.

669
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 2: That was our last house.

670
00:41:51,520 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: Right now, Nina and I never do manage to speak

671
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: to Carlie, and Carlie, if you're listening and you do

672
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: want to talk, please do contact us. But we do

673
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: have some idea of how she feels about what has

674
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,479
Speaker 1: happened to William and over the past decade. The year

675
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: after he disappeared in twenty fifteen, Carli gave an interview

676
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: to the Seven Network that was broadcast on TV.

677
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 6: What sort of mom did you think you would be?

678
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 3: Like?

679
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 8: A nurturing mom, caring, loving?

680
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, her good mom.

681
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 3: No one knows their baby better than the mom.

682
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 6: Okay.

683
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 11: So anyone that's watching this, anyone that's going to see you,

684
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 11: what do you say to them?

685
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: What can we do?

686
00:42:46,440 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 11: I don't heard him, Let me come home.

687
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,439
Speaker 1: The more I learn about this, the more I think

688
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: we actually can't separate what we know now about the

689
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: decision to take William from his biological parents. From what

690
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: was known at the time, there is only the knowledge

691
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: that William did go missing and is still missing. Since

692
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: recording this episode, I've spoken again to Natalie, William's biological grandmother,

693
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 1: and asked her to pass my number on to Brendan,

694
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: her son. And I was talking to Natalie about this

695
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: decision to take William away from his birth parents. I

696
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 1: told her how even some of the people who played

697
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: a role in what happened still ask themselves if it

698
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: was the right decision. One of those was one of

699
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: the officials who was sent to take William away from Carly,

700
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: who was there at the moment William was taken from

701
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: one family before being given to another. He doesn't want

702
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: to be identified, so these are his words, but not

703
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: his voice.

704
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 12: Looking back. It was hard, but we take kids off,

705
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 12: you know, families all the time. You do it. You know,

706
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 12: it's just it. It is part of the job. But

707
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 12: you know, and ironically, this is the thing I get

708
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 12: said about is sorry, mate, No, it's all right. Yeah,

709
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 12: it's we took William off Carli to protect him. Yeah,

710
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 12: And well, no one knows what happened. I mean, we've

711
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 12: all got stories and thoughts. But I thought, how fucking

712
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 12: ironic is are you? Facts? And we took him off, Carli,

713
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 12: off the mother because you know, just a shit family.

714
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 12: You know that you probably met them, I'm assumed you know,

715
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 12: And you go, you take William, take this baby, defenseless,

716
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 12: poor little baby of a family because you've decided, or

717
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 12: the government's decided that the family is too shit to

718
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 12: look after the child. And then this happens. Yeah, you know,

719
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 12: I can still see myself walking into that bloody unit.

720
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 12: It's just up the stairs and turn left and you

721
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 12: go into Yeah.

722
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: And what did you see when you got in there?

723
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 12: Oh, it's just a well it's just a little housing

724
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 12: commission unit. And there was shit everywhere and kids toys everywhere,

725
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 12: and that was just yeah. And there was with Liam

726
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 12: on the floor and Carlie just abusing this shit out.

727
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: Of us, Carlie doing what sorry.

728
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 12: Oh, just abusing us, just you know, because we were

729
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 12: there to take the kid.

730
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: And I'm assuming you'd been told by Facts or whoever

731
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 1: passed that instruction to you that he's in danger.

732
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 12: Well I knew, I knew the family. I knew the

733
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 12: Tyroll family, and it was a shit environment for William

734
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 12: to be and there's no doubt in the world. But ironically,

735
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 12: it's just okay, I thought we were all protecting him. Yeah,

736
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 12: I just think, fuck, did did we do the right thing?

737
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 12: And did we? But he just shake your head sometimes

738
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 12: you go, you know, would he still be alive? Maybe

739
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 12: you don't know.

740
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 1: You don't know, and you can't say, but you're you're

741
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: only human if you're asking the question.

742
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 12: Well, exactly right, you go, well, I don't know if

743
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 12: it'd be alive, but there's a chance in mind. I

744
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 12: just think we thought we were all doing the right thing.

745
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 12: Well we knew, Sorry I shouldn't say we thought we

746
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 12: knew we were doing the right thing. Is the situation

747
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 12: in the family. So the family was very ordinary. The

748
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 12: family is very very ordinary in the facts. Thought so too,

749
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 12: But it's it's just the irony of it that we

750
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 12: took him to protect him because we thought he needed

751
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 12: protecting him. This is what happened.

752
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: I've not I've obviously not been in your position, and

753
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: I haven't seen a fraction of the things that you

754
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,439
Speaker 1: would have seen in your career. And I know that

755
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: this probably isn't the worst of it, but that stuff

756
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: isn't ever going to leave you or any of the

757
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 1: people who were there that day, is it?

758
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 12: Well, no, not really, but it is the thing you

759
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 12: go because of all the other shit we saw, like

760
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 12: the deceased and the fadals and the kids and the

761
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 12: CID's deaths and all the rest of it. You know,

762
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 12: they're gone there in the back of my head and

763
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 12: another ironic thing, you know, they're in my head, they're

764
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 12: squared away. They're like, I'm fine with all of it.

765
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 12: It is it occasionally, but ninety nine percent of the time,

766
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 12: I'm fine. It doesn't affect me day to day. Yeah,

767
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 12: but William William does because it keeps coming back.

768
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: It keeps coming back, he says, because of what would

769
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: end up happening to William.

770
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 12: Yeah, it's just it's just shit. I mean, someone knows

771
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 12: more than one person knows the actual truth of what

772
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 12: happened one hundred percent, because William didn't walk away one

773
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 12: hundred miles. He didn't get you know, either it was

774
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 12: in a car or whatever. It is. Fucking someone knows

775
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 12: what happened to William.

776
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: Today, police suspect the person who knows what happened to

777
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: William is his foster mother. She insists on her innocence,

778
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: So next time on Witness we look at William's foster family.

779
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: If you know anything about William's disappearance, please contact crime Stoppers.

780
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 1: There's a number in the show notes for this series,

781
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: but if there's anything you want to tell us, you

782
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: can email Witness at News dot com dot Au or

783
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: I'm on social media and it can be completely confidential.

784
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: A lot of people have been involved in making this series,

785
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound

786
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: design was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon,

787
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: Nicholas Adams, Jazzbar and Phoebe Zakowski Wallace. Voice acting on

788
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: this episode by Marcus Obern, research by Aidan Patrick, music

789
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs and the

790
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 1: editor at News dot com dot Au is Kerry Warren.

791
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: I'm Dan Box