1 00:00:05,850 --> 00:00:08,100 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed business interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:08,309 --> 00:00:11,398 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Why does immigration matter so much to the economy? 3 00:00:11,460 --> 00:00:14,399 Sean Aylmer: This month, the immigration debate in Australia has really flared 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,489 Sean Aylmer: up. First, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese said Labor would cut 5 00:00:17,489 --> 00:00:21,029 Sean Aylmer: the immigration intake to below 300, 000, down from the record 548, 6 00:00:21,030 --> 00:00:25,860 Sean Aylmer: 000 intake in the year to September 2023. Then last 7 00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:29,130 Sean Aylmer: week, opposition leader Peter Dutton proposed significant further cuts to 8 00:00:29,130 --> 00:00:31,980 Sean Aylmer: immigration as part of an effort to fix the housing 9 00:00:31,980 --> 00:00:34,469 Sean Aylmer: crisis. I wanted to take a close look at why 10 00:00:34,469 --> 00:00:37,320 Sean Aylmer: immigration matters, the role it plays in the economy, and 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,540 Sean Aylmer: what happens when the number of people arriving goes up 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,949 Sean Aylmer: or down. Carlos Cacho is Jarden Australia's chief economist, a 13 00:00:43,950 --> 00:00:46,079 Sean Aylmer: regular on Fear and Greed. Carlos, welcome back. 14 00:00:46,380 --> 00:00:47,430 Carlos Cacho: Thanks for having me, Sean. 15 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,119 Sean Aylmer: Why is immigration so important to the economy, Carlos? 16 00:00:51,509 --> 00:00:55,170 Carlos Cacho: Well, look, immigration is important for a few reasons. Firstly, 17 00:00:55,230 --> 00:00:59,190 Carlos Cacho: generally, what we see from migrants coming to Australia is, 18 00:00:59,190 --> 00:01:02,550 Carlos Cacho: they are younger than the overall population. They're more likely 19 00:01:02,550 --> 00:01:06,959 Carlos Cacho: to work. Australia's migration program has generally been targeted in 20 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,089 Carlos Cacho: bringing in young people who are going to come and 21 00:01:09,089 --> 00:01:12,959 Carlos Cacho: study, or work in Australia, and then become permanent residents 22 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,030 Carlos Cacho: or citizens, and pay taxes through their life. This is 23 00:01:15,030 --> 00:01:18,510 Carlos Cacho: important because it helps offset the aging population we have, 24 00:01:19,020 --> 00:01:22,410 Carlos Cacho: which is a problem many developed economies share. It also brings 25 00:01:22,410 --> 00:01:25,230 Carlos Cacho: in new skills. It helps alleviate skill shortages across the 26 00:01:25,230 --> 00:01:28,770 Carlos Cacho: economy, and generally, it just supports economic growth. We can 27 00:01:28,770 --> 00:01:32,310 Carlos Cacho: see that in the recent economic activity over the last 28 00:01:32,310 --> 00:01:34,530 Carlos Cacho: year, where there's been a lot of talk about per 29 00:01:34,530 --> 00:01:39,240 Carlos Cacho: capita recession, but in nominal, in real terms, growth has 30 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,479 Carlos Cacho: actually held up okay, and even in consumption, where real 31 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,479 Carlos Cacho: consumption in the national accounts data has been very weak, 32 00:01:45,660 --> 00:01:48,390 Carlos Cacho: but that actually excludes spending of non- residents. Once we 33 00:01:48,420 --> 00:01:52,350 Carlos Cacho: exclude that spending from non- residents, things like temporary international 34 00:01:52,350 --> 00:01:56,759 Carlos Cacho: students, working holiday makers, temporary skilled visa holders, consumption is 35 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,010 Carlos Cacho: still soft, but it's not nearly as soft as the 36 00:01:59,010 --> 00:02:02,429 Carlos Cacho: headline consumption data would have you believe. It's important for 37 00:02:02,670 --> 00:02:03,870 Carlos Cacho: a couple of reasons. 38 00:02:04,650 --> 00:02:10,770 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so the somewhat simplistic argument that people come in 39 00:02:10,770 --> 00:02:14,548 Sean Aylmer: and they take local jobs, or they come in and 40 00:02:14,550 --> 00:02:18,388 Sean Aylmer: they don't add to the economy, that's actually a fallacy, 41 00:02:18,389 --> 00:02:18,659 Sean Aylmer: isn't it? 42 00:02:19,559 --> 00:02:24,450 Carlos Cacho: Generally, what the economic data and research shows is in 43 00:02:24,450 --> 00:02:27,929 Carlos Cacho: the medium to longer term, migration contributes to the economy. 44 00:02:28,350 --> 00:02:31,080 Carlos Cacho: Yes, a migrant coming in is going to take a 45 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,410 Carlos Cacho: job, but they're also going to create additional demand that 46 00:02:34,410 --> 00:02:37,829 Carlos Cacho: creates more jobs. Often, particularly in the case of skilled 47 00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:41,190 Carlos Cacho: migration, these people are coming into areas where we have 48 00:02:41,190 --> 00:02:44,130 Carlos Cacho: shortages. You could think of things like nurses, where we 49 00:02:44,130 --> 00:02:46,470 Carlos Cacho: do get quite a high number of nurses coming into 50 00:02:46,470 --> 00:02:48,840 Carlos Cacho: Australia. Yes, there are a lot of nurses in Australia 51 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:50,789 Carlos Cacho: already, but we do have a huge shortage of them 52 00:02:50,790 --> 00:02:54,179 Carlos Cacho: at the moment. The vacancies for nurses across the economy 53 00:02:54,179 --> 00:02:56,939 Carlos Cacho: are close to 10,000, and we are only bringing in, 54 00:02:56,940 --> 00:02:59,940 Carlos Cacho: I think the PR intake for nurses is maybe about 1,000 to 1, 55 00:03:00,449 --> 00:03:04,470 Carlos Cacho: 500, so it's a small share of that. They do 56 00:03:04,470 --> 00:03:07,530 Carlos Cacho: add, they do create jobs, they also take jobs, but 57 00:03:07,530 --> 00:03:10,529 Carlos Cacho: generally, we do see them as a positive. Where there's 58 00:03:10,530 --> 00:03:12,930 Carlos Cacho: a bit more, I think contentious, you could argue at 59 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,508 Carlos Cacho: the lowest skilled end, and there, it's a bit more 60 00:03:15,508 --> 00:03:19,738 Carlos Cacho: difficult. We do know in areas like hospitality, international students 61 00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:24,660 Carlos Cacho: and temporary workers are very common. In that sector as 62 00:03:24,660 --> 00:03:26,999 Carlos Cacho: well, we do know there have been, historically, some issues 63 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:32,610 Carlos Cacho: around underpayment of staff, which might disadvantage local Australians in 64 00:03:32,610 --> 00:03:36,840 Carlos Cacho: these industries. If a restaurateur has the option to employ 65 00:03:36,870 --> 00:03:40,830 Carlos Cacho: a student on a lower than award wage, it's going 66 00:03:40,830 --> 00:03:43,980 Carlos Cacho: to make it harder for a 20- year- old uni 67 00:03:43,980 --> 00:03:46,710 Carlos Cacho: student from Australia to get that same job if they 68 00:03:47,010 --> 00:03:49,260 Carlos Cacho: know their rights, or don't want to be paid on 69 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,220 Carlos Cacho: those below market rates. But generally, it's a positive. 70 00:03:53,580 --> 00:03:56,340 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, you can't blame overseas people coming to Australia for that, because 71 00:03:56,340 --> 00:03:59,670 Sean Aylmer: that's just illegal activity by the owner of the restaurant 72 00:03:59,670 --> 00:03:59,940 Sean Aylmer: or whatever. 73 00:03:59,940 --> 00:04:00,750 Carlos Cacho: Exactly, yeah. 74 00:04:01,410 --> 00:04:05,340 Sean Aylmer: Okay, the other thing I just want to mention is housing. They talk 75 00:04:05,340 --> 00:04:09,570 Sean Aylmer: about solving the housing crisis by reducing immigration. Is there 76 00:04:09,570 --> 00:04:10,230 Sean Aylmer: something in that? 77 00:04:11,609 --> 00:04:15,300 Carlos Cacho: If we think about the current housing crisis, at its 78 00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:18,330 Carlos Cacho: core, essentially, what we've seen over the last few years 79 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,620 Carlos Cacho: is demand has outstripped supply. The supply of new dwellings 80 00:04:22,620 --> 00:04:26,070 Carlos Cacho: in aggregate has been very subdued because of a range 81 00:04:26,070 --> 00:04:29,580 Carlos Cacho: of factors including significant delays. The time to build a 82 00:04:29,580 --> 00:04:33,390 Carlos Cacho: freestanding home has significantly blown out. Now, we're seeing approvals 83 00:04:33,390 --> 00:04:36,450 Carlos Cacho: for new dwellings have fallen significantly to decade lows, because 84 00:04:36,450 --> 00:04:40,440 Carlos Cacho: of high construction costs combined with high funding, or financing 85 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,990 Carlos Cacho: costs. At the same time, as you've had that supply 86 00:04:42,990 --> 00:04:45,990 Carlos Cacho: be constrained, you've had a big increase in demand. Initially, 87 00:04:45,990 --> 00:04:50,430 Carlos Cacho: between 2020 and 2022, the increase in demand was actually driven by 88 00:04:50,430 --> 00:04:54,928 Carlos Cacho: Australians forming smaller households. We saw household sizes decrease as 89 00:04:54,930 --> 00:04:59,160 Carlos Cacho: people left share houses, move into their own homes, left 90 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,089 Carlos Cacho: the family home and moved out, et cetera. That activity 91 00:05:03,089 --> 00:05:07,920 Carlos Cacho: actually increased demand for housing by about 120, 000 dwellings over that period. 92 00:05:08,010 --> 00:05:10,710 Carlos Cacho: The initial change was actually just smaller households, and then 93 00:05:10,710 --> 00:05:13,260 Carlos Cacho: since then, what we've seen is the rebound in migration 94 00:05:13,260 --> 00:05:16,950 Carlos Cacho: as borders have reopened has put further pressure on housing 95 00:05:17,190 --> 00:05:21,659 Carlos Cacho: demand. We've seen net overseas migration in the 12 months 96 00:05:21,660 --> 00:05:26,099 Carlos Cacho: to September 2023, it has been well over 500,000. That's 97 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:28,380 Carlos Cacho: by far a record high, and that compares to pre- 98 00:05:28,380 --> 00:05:32,160 Carlos Cacho: COVID, we were probably averaging around 240,000, so more than 99 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,699 Carlos Cacho: double the pre- COVID rate. It's a combination of factors, 100 00:05:35,940 --> 00:05:38,849 Carlos Cacho: but housing has definitely been under pressure. I don't think 101 00:05:38,849 --> 00:05:41,969 Carlos Cacho: stopping migration is going to be a magic bullet that 102 00:05:41,969 --> 00:05:45,840 Carlos Cacho: fixes housing. It might stop the problem from getting worse, 103 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,080 Carlos Cacho: but it's not going to magically create more dwellings that 104 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:50,789 Carlos Cacho: all of a sudden alleviate this pressure. 105 00:05:51,570 --> 00:05:53,339 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Carlos, we'll be back in a minute. 106 00:05:59,969 --> 00:06:03,030 Sean Aylmer: I am speaking to Carlos Cacho, chief Economist at Jarden 107 00:06:03,089 --> 00:06:08,279 Sean Aylmer: Australia. Is there a right number, then, when it comes 108 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,240 Sean Aylmer: to migration? I know it's a very political question, and 109 00:06:12,270 --> 00:06:16,740 Sean Aylmer: let's park whatever the government and opposition are saying. Is 110 00:06:16,740 --> 00:06:19,140 Sean Aylmer: there actually a good number in terms of jobs, and 111 00:06:19,140 --> 00:06:21,030 Sean Aylmer: infrastructure, and housing, and all that stuff? 112 00:06:22,380 --> 00:06:24,930 Carlos Cacho: It's a very good and very tricky question to answer. 113 00:06:26,700 --> 00:06:30,509 Carlos Cacho: I wouldn't say there's a specific hard number that's right 114 00:06:30,509 --> 00:06:32,549 Carlos Cacho: or wrong, but I think what's important is, we need 115 00:06:32,549 --> 00:06:35,099 Carlos Cacho: to think about the level of migration in the context 116 00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:39,238 Carlos Cacho: of our ability to supply the services and infrastructure that 117 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:44,279 Carlos Cacho: we need, be that housing, be that transportation infrastructure, be 118 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,980 Carlos Cacho: that the labor market being able to absorb those additional 119 00:06:46,980 --> 00:06:50,070 Carlos Cacho: workers. I think you could argue that recently, it has 120 00:06:50,070 --> 00:06:53,129 Carlos Cacho: probably been too high. Albeit, I would say that a 121 00:06:53,129 --> 00:06:55,140 Carlos Cacho: lot of the reason it's so high is that it 122 00:06:55,140 --> 00:06:57,870 Carlos Cacho: is catch up for the period where borders were closed, 123 00:06:57,870 --> 00:07:01,140 Carlos Cacho: and no one was coming into Australia. It's also been 124 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:04,589 Carlos Cacho: partly pushed up not by arrivals, but by less departures. 125 00:07:04,740 --> 00:07:07,200 Carlos Cacho: When we talk about migration, what we're usually talking about 126 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,049 Carlos Cacho: is net overseas migration, so that's the sum of people 127 00:07:10,049 --> 00:07:14,430 Carlos Cacho: coming into Australia, less people leaving Australia. Recently, a big 128 00:07:14,430 --> 00:07:17,130 Carlos Cacho: driver of the high norm has actually been less people 129 00:07:17,130 --> 00:07:19,860 Carlos Cacho: leaving, and that's largely because no one was arriving three 130 00:07:19,860 --> 00:07:22,800 Carlos Cacho: years ago. If you think about an international student who's 131 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,500 Carlos Cacho: coming to study a bachelor's degree, or a master's degree 132 00:07:25,500 --> 00:07:28,649 Carlos Cacho: in Australia, they weren't arriving in 2021 because borders were 133 00:07:28,650 --> 00:07:31,890 Carlos Cacho: shut, and they're not leaving now. What we're going to 134 00:07:31,890 --> 00:07:34,860 Carlos Cacho: see over the next 12 to 24 months is, we will see 135 00:07:34,860 --> 00:07:38,250 Carlos Cacho: a natural moderation in migration as we see those departures 136 00:07:38,250 --> 00:07:41,219 Carlos Cacho: normalize, and we do see that normal flow of people 137 00:07:41,219 --> 00:07:44,040 Carlos Cacho: leaving the country start to get back to more normal levels. 138 00:07:44,429 --> 00:07:46,770 Sean Aylmer: You've touched on this in a few of your answers, 139 00:07:47,100 --> 00:07:50,910 Sean Aylmer: whatever the optimal number is, it is, what about optimal 140 00:07:50,940 --> 00:07:55,320 Sean Aylmer: type of migrant? Is it someone with a skill? Is 141 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,080 Sean Aylmer: it, we need nurses, for example, so let's really target 142 00:07:58,170 --> 00:08:03,239 Sean Aylmer: that? Is there a more altruistic, or philosophical bent here, 143 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,399 Sean Aylmer: where we actually need to look after other people, and 144 00:08:05,730 --> 00:08:09,120 Sean Aylmer: certainly, people less off should be allowed to come in? 145 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,120 Sean Aylmer: Is it family reunion? What is it? 146 00:08:12,900 --> 00:08:15,839 Carlos Cacho: Well, I think it depends on what you want the 147 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,739 Carlos Cacho: goal of the migration system to be. I think it 148 00:08:19,740 --> 00:08:22,289 Carlos Cacho: takes a balance of all three. You do want some 149 00:08:22,289 --> 00:08:26,100 Carlos Cacho: skilled, there's an argument for family reunion, and that's always 150 00:08:26,100 --> 00:08:29,040 Carlos Cacho: been part of Australia's migration system, as well as the 151 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,179 Carlos Cacho: more altruistic migration, asylum seekers, et cetera, that you touched 152 00:08:33,179 --> 00:08:36,990 Carlos Cacho: on there. Australia's migration system has generally, for the better 153 00:08:36,990 --> 00:08:39,960 Carlos Cacho: part of the last two decades, been skewed towards skilled 154 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,098 Carlos Cacho: migration, either people directly coming in with the skills as 155 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:45,900 Carlos Cacho: a skilled migrant, so that can either be through the 156 00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:49,740 Carlos Cacho: temporary migration channel, where we have skill shortage visas which 157 00:08:49,740 --> 00:08:53,130 Carlos Cacho: targets specific occupations that are in shortage across the country, 158 00:08:53,429 --> 00:08:57,089 Carlos Cacho: or through the independent permanent visa intake, which is the points 159 00:08:57,089 --> 00:09:02,670 Carlos Cacho: test, where applicants apply, basically try to get enough points 160 00:09:02,940 --> 00:09:06,630 Carlos Cacho: based on their qualifications, their skills, their work experience to 161 00:09:06,630 --> 00:09:09,420 Carlos Cacho: come to Australia with permanent residency to begin with. And 162 00:09:09,420 --> 00:09:12,929 Carlos Cacho: then, there's also the student visa intake, which originally, in 163 00:09:12,929 --> 00:09:16,289 Carlos Cacho: the early 2000s, the government effectively created a link between 164 00:09:16,350 --> 00:09:19,650 Carlos Cacho: temporary student visas and getting a skilled visa, and eventually 165 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,710 Carlos Cacho: permanent residency. The idea there is, you bring these students 166 00:09:22,710 --> 00:09:25,439 Carlos Cacho: in, they study in Australia, and then they go on. 167 00:09:25,740 --> 00:09:28,439 Carlos Cacho: Ideally, you want the best and brightest to stay here, 168 00:09:28,650 --> 00:09:33,570 Carlos Cacho: start working, become residents, and become taxpayers, essentially. That's really 169 00:09:33,570 --> 00:09:37,080 Carlos Cacho: the goal of the skilled and Student Migration Program, is 170 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,780 Carlos Cacho: to have people come into Australia when they're relatively young, 171 00:09:40,230 --> 00:09:43,140 Carlos Cacho: develop their skills, join the workforce and pay tax all 172 00:09:43,140 --> 00:09:46,530 Carlos Cacho: through their life, which helps offset the aging population. It's 173 00:09:46,530 --> 00:09:49,410 Carlos Cacho: all a balancing act. I think one important thing to 174 00:09:49,410 --> 00:09:52,320 Carlos Cacho: touch on, maybe I should have touched on this earlier, 175 00:09:52,740 --> 00:09:55,740 Carlos Cacho: when we talk about migration, really, it's important to understand 176 00:09:55,740 --> 00:09:59,968 Carlos Cacho: the two main streams, and the differences between them. The 177 00:09:59,970 --> 00:10:04,078 Carlos Cacho: data is quite confusing here, but really, Australia's main migration, 178 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,049 Carlos Cacho: or visa program, is the temporary visa program. This covers 179 00:10:07,049 --> 00:10:11,638 Carlos Cacho: everything from students to skilled workers to backpackers and just 180 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:14,458 Carlos Cacho: visitors, tourists who are coming to Australia. At any one 181 00:10:14,460 --> 00:10:19,290 Carlos Cacho: time, that program has about 2. 8 million people in 182 00:10:19,290 --> 00:10:22,348 Carlos Cacho: Australia under those visa conditions. It also is the program 183 00:10:22,349 --> 00:10:24,780 Carlos Cacho: that allows New Zealand citizens to live and work in 184 00:10:24,780 --> 00:10:28,349 Carlos Cacho: Australia. Separate to that, which is often what politicians talk 185 00:10:28,350 --> 00:10:33,179 Carlos Cacho: about, is the permanent migration intake. This is, over the 186 00:10:33,179 --> 00:10:38,010 Carlos Cacho: last decade, somewhere between 160,000 to 190,000 people that get permanent residency 187 00:10:38,010 --> 00:10:41,010 Carlos Cacho: in Australia each year. The thing that's misleading about the 188 00:10:41,010 --> 00:10:45,959 Carlos Cacho: PR visa intake, though, is that about 50% to 70% of people 189 00:10:46,529 --> 00:10:50,700 Carlos Cacho: who get permanent residency are already in Australia. The majority 190 00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:53,940 Carlos Cacho: of them already live here, so they don't contribute to 191 00:10:53,940 --> 00:10:56,608 Carlos Cacho: new housing demands when they get that visa. And then, 192 00:10:56,610 --> 00:11:00,360 Carlos Cacho: separate to the actual visa system, there's net overseas migration, 193 00:11:00,630 --> 00:11:05,369 Carlos Cacho: which is the statistician's definition, the ABS' definition of migration, 194 00:11:05,369 --> 00:11:07,830 Carlos Cacho: which is people who are in or planning to be 195 00:11:07,830 --> 00:11:11,640 Carlos Cacho: in Australia for 12 out of 16 months. This includes 196 00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:13,978 Carlos Cacho: students who are coming to study in Australia for the 197 00:11:13,980 --> 00:11:17,580 Carlos Cacho: next three years. It includes workers coming on skilled visas, 198 00:11:17,580 --> 00:11:21,089 Carlos Cacho: or it could include family members coming for an extended 199 00:11:21,089 --> 00:11:25,320 Carlos Cacho: visit, or expats returning to Australia. There's a lot of 200 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,080 Carlos Cacho: different data which has different definitions, which makes the debate 201 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,328 Carlos Cacho: particularly confusing, often, in the media. 202 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,689 Sean Aylmer: I think, listening to you then, it's the temporary visa, 203 00:11:33,690 --> 00:11:37,139 Sean Aylmer: then, which is going to cause the short term challenges 204 00:11:37,139 --> 00:11:39,329 Sean Aylmer: around housing and things like that. Is that right? 205 00:11:39,929 --> 00:11:42,419 Carlos Cacho: Yes, absolutely, and that's what we've seen over the last 206 00:11:42,450 --> 00:11:45,240 Carlos Cacho: few years, already the last two years, is that it's 207 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,540 Carlos Cacho: this rebound in temporary visa holders, particularly students. At the 208 00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:52,590 Carlos Cacho: moment, if we add up students and temporary graduate visas, 209 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:56,639 Carlos Cacho: there's about 900, 000 of them in Australia, and that's really 210 00:11:56,639 --> 00:12:00,660 Carlos Cacho: what's put this additional pressure on housing, and on services, 211 00:12:00,660 --> 00:12:03,960 Carlos Cacho: and been the lightning rod for political debate. 212 00:12:04,530 --> 00:12:06,210 Sean Aylmer: Carlos, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 213 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:07,920 Carlos Cacho: Thanks for having me, Sean. 214 00:12:08,340 --> 00:12:11,580 Sean Aylmer: That was Carlos Cacho, chief Economist at Jarden Australia. This 215 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:13,650 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed business interview. Join us every 216 00:12:13,650 --> 00:12:15,989 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 217 00:12:15,990 --> 00:12:19,140 Sean Aylmer: best business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.