1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: She was shot first in the body it would appear 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: with a heavy caliber handgunner three point fifty seven caliber handgun, 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: and then in the head. Now, this to almost anybody 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: would signify a hit. She remembers very clearly what Clifford 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: Jones said. He looked sort of dead, panned, but gloating, 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,159 Speaker 1: let's say. And he said, the other Missus Jones is 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: no longer with us. I'm Andrew Ruhle. This is life 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: in crimes. Sometimes we know stories that we can't tell. 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: Sometimes we don't know them at all. But this is 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: one of those where we've found out more information and 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: that enables us to tell the full story that could 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: not previously be told. It's a terrible story in many ways. 13 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: It's the murder of a young mother in a Melbourne 14 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: house in nineteen eighty one. Her name was Anchie Jones. 15 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: Anchie is a German first name. She was commonly called 16 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: Angie as in Angela, but her German name was spelt 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: slightly differently. She was born to German migrant parents. She 18 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: grew up in Saint Alban's area, and she married young 19 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: to a nice German seaman who'd come to Melbourne on 20 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: a ship. His name was Wolf Alt, and she married 21 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: Wolf and happy for a while. Wolf went off working 22 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: on ships, and that meant he'd be away from home 23 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: for a month at a time. And Angie meanwhile got 24 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: a new job. She switched jobs, and she got a 25 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: job at ZF Transmissions. They were a gearbox and transmission 26 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: factory out in the western suburbs at past Footscray. She 27 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: got a job there, I think in the office. It 28 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: was there that young, anchie young wife of the seaman 29 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: Wolf Alt, met the man who would ruin her life 30 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: and eventually ended. His name was Clifford Jones. For those 31 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: listeners who have been around a while and they think 32 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: some of this is familiar, they're right. We did an 33 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: episode some time ago called The Suspect, and the Suspect 34 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: was the name we used for Clifford Jones. And because 35 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: Clifford Jones died relatively recently, just last September, we can 36 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: now tell the true story of what happened, a story 37 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: that I have known for some years, but which we 38 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: could not publish in its entirety before this for various reasons, 39 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: various legal reasons. Clifford Jones had also come This is 40 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: in many ways a migrant story a story of modern Australia. 41 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: Clifford Jones had migrated from the UK. I think he 42 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: was born in Bristol. He was sort of of Welsh extraction. 43 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: He had worked as a mechanic in the military in Britain. 44 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: As far as I can tell, he often boasted that 45 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: he had worked on aircraft I think that were used 46 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: by the Sas over there. That may or may not 47 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: have been true, but he certainly was a skilled mechanic. 48 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: And he came to Australia in nineteen sixty five with 49 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: his English wife Rita, and two children who grew up here. 50 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: And then they had a third child. And so by 51 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: the time Clifford Jones met Anchie at zedf automatics or 52 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: ZEDF transmissions, she was in her twenties and he was 53 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: in his late thirties, and his three children were almost 54 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: grown up. He has an affair with Anchie, He leaves 55 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: his wife, he takes up with Anchie, He marries Anngie 56 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: and they have a little board, a little boy that 57 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: she later called Christopher, although Clifford Jones, being the strange 58 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: man that he was, he would call that child Aaron 59 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: for his own reasons. Antie soon worked out that she'd 60 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: made the wrong move. She'd left a nice, kind German 61 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: seaman who admittedly wasn't home all that often, to go 62 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: and live full time with a very nasty older man 63 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: who treated her very badly, her former husband, Wolf Art 64 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: I tracked down in the year twenty eighteen. By this 65 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: stage Wolf had gone right through his career to become 66 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: a sea captain. He was living in Hamburg in Germany, 67 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: and I found him there on a telephone and took 68 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: to him for a long time, and among other things, 69 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: he told me that he stayed friendly with Anchie's parents, 70 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: Eric and Tilley because they liked him like them, and 71 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: when he used to come into port in Melbourne on 72 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: his ship, I think he used to work around the 73 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: Pacific at that stage, they would tell him what was 74 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,559 Speaker 1: going on with Anchie. And at one point they said 75 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: they were very worried and upset, and they said, can 76 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 1: you please drive with us over to some other suburb. 77 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: I think Clayton was to pick Angie up because Clifford 78 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: Jones has bashed her and she's telephoned us. So Wolf 79 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: drove them over and he said it was awful when 80 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: they got there, and she he said was green and blue. 81 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: I think he meant black and blue, but green and 82 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: blue's okay. With bruises on a face and on a body, 83 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: he said she'd been belted unmercifully, and she told him 84 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: that Clifford Jones had also thrown knives at her, so 85 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: he's a very bad man, very cruel man, and wolf 86 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: and Ankie's parents took her back to their house s 87 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: at Alban's, and she subsequently decided she would leave Clifford Jones, 88 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: who she had married, and she had the child and 89 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: so on. Now her parents opted to sell out and 90 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: go to Queensland, possibly because of all this drama, and 91 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: she followed and she went up there with the little boy, Christopher, 92 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: and she lived with her parents, I think in perhaps 93 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: a granny flat or similar at the back of their 94 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: house out of Brisbin somewhere, and life went on except 95 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: for this, and she wanted a property settlement from Clifford 96 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: from Clifford Jones, and Clifford Jones was much opposed to 97 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: selling the house that they'd owned together in order to 98 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: pay her out her half, and in fact he was 99 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: very vehement about this. He was most upset at the 100 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: idea of having to pay her any money, which is 101 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: one of those real life situations that happens when people 102 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: get divorced. There is often a lot of anger about 103 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: financial matters because in the end, the two people trying 104 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: to get blood out of a stone and there's not 105 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: enough blood in the stone, and mont has split everything up. 106 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: No one's got enough money, so it's tough stuff. And 107 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: she stuck to her guns. He briefed a lawyer and 108 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: she said, I want what's mine now. Had she stayed 109 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: in Queensland, I don't know what would have happened, but 110 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: possibly she may not have been killed. But as luck 111 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: would have it, fate had it that she'd been involved 112 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: in a very minor traffic accident in Victoria, or a 113 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: friend of hers had and she was some sort of 114 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: witness and she had to come back to Victoria to 115 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: give evidence in a fairly minor traffic matter in court. 116 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: So she came down to Victoria from Queensland. She left 117 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: a little boy, Christopher, with her parents and she came 118 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: down and stayed with her brother, Eric Eric Jr. At 119 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: his house in Saint Albans. And there it is its 120 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,559 Speaker 1: old homework. She's staying with a brother and his daughter, 121 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: and she's niece who's a school age teenager. She's down 122 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: for two weeks, and while she's down, she pushes through 123 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: her lawyer her claim for money from Clifford Jones. And 124 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: this enrages Clifford Jones, and Clifford Jones clearly saw an 125 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: opportunity to do something about it. Now we know that 126 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: he was planning bad things, because it transpires that before 127 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: all this he had been in a meeting with a 128 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: bank manager in St Albans or similar and the bank manager, 129 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: even a year later, remembered clearly the tenor of that meeting, 130 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: and he must have mentioned to Clifford Jones that look, really, 131 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: in the real world, when you get divorced, if you 132 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: own a house together, you really have to pay out 133 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: the other party, either by selling the house or by 134 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: coming up with the required amount of money. And this 135 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: enraged Clifford Jones so much that he turned very high 136 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: style towards the bank major and said, she won't dare 137 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: take it as she does, I'll get her. And the 138 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: bank manager couldn't help noticing how hostile that statement was, 139 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: and he took it to mean, as he later told 140 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: police that this man Clifford Jones was so angry and 141 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: so nasty that effectively he was making a very serious threat. 142 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: And he was right, because what happened was this, during 143 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: that fortnight that Angie's in Melbourne, she's staying with her brother, 144 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: As we said, she's sleeping on a couch in the 145 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: back room at her brother's humble house in Theodore Street 146 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: in Saint Orban's I think a Tuesday morning. It was 147 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: September the fifteenth, it's an anniversary this month. Angie's brother 148 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: Eric goes to work early. Angie's niece, whose name I 149 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: know but no need to use it, she to school 150 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 1: at you know, eight thirty whatever. And at some point 151 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: after that, Angie is either asleep or lying on the 152 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: couch where she's been sleeping, and someone, a gunman, come 153 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: through the back door. He might have had to force 154 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: the door, which probably wasn't hard to do, and that 155 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: probably woke Angie. She was shot first in the body, 156 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: it would appear, with a heavy caliber handgunner three point 157 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 1: fifty seven caliber handgun, and then in the head. So 158 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: she took two bullets from a heavy caliber handgun. The 159 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: second one was to the head and at very close range. 160 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: Now this to almost anybody would signify a hit. There 161 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: was nothing stolen, There was nothing broken apart from forcing 162 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: the back door. There was no sign of theft of 163 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: any sort. Only the death of this woman. A very 164 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: clinical execution, is the way you'd put it. With the 165 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: sort of weapon that the average burglar is not carrying, 166 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: that is a heavy caliber handgun. No sign of panic. 167 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: It just had all the hallmarks of a cold blooded execution, 168 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: which is the conclusion that the homicide detectives drew when 169 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: they got there. There these two detectives who got there. 170 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: One was a sergeant called mcfriend who died last year 171 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. He's no longer with us. The other 172 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: one was a very young detective called cel Purna. And 173 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: cel Perna would later become quite well known in Victoria, 174 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: and many many years later he left the police force 175 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: and he became an integrity commissioner of something like that 176 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: with the racing authorities, and to this day he still 177 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: has a senior integrity role in the racing industry. And 178 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: sell Perna is much liked and much respect by everybody 179 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: who knows him, or as far as I know he is, 180 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: And he in nineteen eighty one was a brand new 181 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: homicide detective, and this was his first ever case, and 182 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: when he and his experienced sergeant got there, they drew 183 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: the conclusion this was a murder until proven otherwise. And 184 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: their first thought, of course, is well, someone close to home. Now. 185 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: They don't see the body until the alarm is raised 186 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: in the afternoon by the niece getting home from school. 187 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: So the girls come home from school at you know, 188 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: say three point forty five or thereabouts, sometime before four 189 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: o'clock and raises the alarm, rings, the police brings the ambulance. 190 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: Whatever the police get out there does make the evening news. 191 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: It was a late breaking story for the evening news 192 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: at six o'clock. Meanwhile, the two policemen, the two detectives, 193 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: heads straight to Clifford Jones's garage, which was only one 194 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: postcode away. It was in Maidstone, which is part of 195 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: Foods Gray and s. A. Alburn's is only you know, 196 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: the sort of neighboring postcard more or less. So it 197 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: might have been a twelve minute drive or whatever it was. 198 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: And so they get to this garage and so by 199 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: this stage it's late afternoon, might have been between five 200 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: and six or whatever. And they go to the garage 201 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: and they say, are you Clifford Jones. Yes, and Clifford 202 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: Jones face is elaborately neutral, And they told him the 203 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: bad news, which is what homicide detectives like to do. 204 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: They like to tell people the bad news and see 205 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: what their reaction is and to judge whether it is 206 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: a sincere, an authentic reaction, or a rehearsed and fabricated reaction. 207 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: And their assessment of this man's reaction was that it 208 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: was not sincere, and it was very fabricated. He threw 209 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: himself down on a pile of tires that was there 210 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: and buried his head in his hands, and wild and 211 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: wept and said how sad it was, this inexplicable death 212 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: of the woman that essentially he was fighting with over 213 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: the price of half a house, and who had, as 214 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: it turns out, made a fairly direct threat when he 215 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: was talking to the bank manager about it. So the 216 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: police formed a view that unless another suspect turned up, 217 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: this man was the obvious suspect. They were so taken 218 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: with him as a suspect that they thought, well, he 219 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: might have done it. He doesn't work that far away, 220 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: And so they drive from the garage to the crime scene. 221 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: That's the orbits. And they go this way down Ballarat Road, 222 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: and they go that way down another road, and they 223 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: check the fastest ways and the backways and all the 224 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: rest of it, and they're trying to work out if 225 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: you could drive their and back in a certain time, 226 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: could he have driven left, you know, nine am, and 227 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: got back at nine point thirty two or something and 228 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: done the murder. Their conclusion was that it was faintly 229 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: possible but highly unlikely. They actually ruled Clifford Jones out 230 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: as the shooter pretty well because they thought, a it 231 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: was very hard to get there, do it and get 232 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: back in the time available without being obviously driving at 233 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: crazy speeds. And the other thing was there was something 234 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: like eight witnesses who dropped into the garage or were 235 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: at the garage or bought petrol at the garage who 236 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: had seen Clifford Jones that morning at the garage, and 237 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: there didn't seem to be a gap when you added 238 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: all the witnesses statements together, they didn't seem to be 239 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: the right gap for him to get away. So what 240 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: they concluded was he didn't leave the garage. His alibi 241 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: was solid and substantial. In fact, you know elaborately solid. 242 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: There were a lot of witnesses, and that forced them 243 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: to the conclusion that if Clifford Jones had something to 244 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: do with it, that he paid someone else to do it, 245 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: or he got someone else to do it. And they 246 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: formed that view, and nothing that happened for the next 247 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: forty years altered that view. The reality was that it 248 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: was a busy week, as sometimes happens in policing. One 249 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: of the Royal Show daredevil riders of that era a 250 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: guy called Dale Buggans, who was very famous when I 251 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: was young. He used to ride motorbix over the top 252 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: of double decker buses and amazing stuff. He was a 253 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: daredevil evil Canevil type figure, homegrown evil Caneval and Dale 254 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: Buggins I think shot himself with a gun in an 255 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: Essendon motel that same week or that same day, even 256 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: something like that, and that threw the homicide squad into 257 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 1: a bit of a state because they weren't sure whether 258 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: he'd killed himself or whether it was murder, and so 259 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: on and so forth. There was a lot going on, 260 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: and so the death of Angie Jones somehow fell a 261 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: little bit between the cracks. One reason for that perhaps 262 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: was that it wasn't taken that seriously. Further up the chain, now, 263 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: these two homicide guys, they took it very seriously and 264 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,719 Speaker 1: they knew it was a murder. But when the media, 265 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: who were more obsessed with the Dale Buggins, talked to 266 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: the head of the CIB or the crime department, a 267 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: man that we used to call Fat Harry, Phil Bennett. 268 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: His name was Commander Phil Bennett, known universally as Fat 269 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: Harry or just Fat. When they took to him, Fat 270 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: Harry said something bizarre like, oh, well, we think it 271 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: could be a burglary gone wrong. You know, he's a 272 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: burglar there and he's disturbed this woman and killed it. 273 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: Now that was a joke because nothing was taken, as 274 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: we said, and she'd been killed very specifically, shot in 275 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: the head with a heavy caliber pistol, which would to 276 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: most people be the sign of a contract killing, or 277 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: at least a very deliberate killing, nothing to do with burglary. 278 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: I've tooked to sell Perner about this as recently as 279 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: this week, and he said, look, Phil Bennett was a dial. 280 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 1: You know, he was basically stupid. He was so stupid 281 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: that his own men took the Mickey out of him 282 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: by giving him a potted plant to keep in his office, 283 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: and it was actually a marijuana plant, a cannabis plant, 284 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: but he didn't know. He just thought it was a 285 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,479 Speaker 1: nice green plant. He was the butt of jokes because 286 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: he was thick. Well, that might be so, but I 287 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: wonder about it. I've always wondered whether Bennett was a 288 00:18:54,840 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: little bit mixed up with some unsavory police in the 289 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: Western suburbs who were running bits of scams and bits 290 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: of wroughts and corrupt stuff over in the West. And 291 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: that is conceivable, and it fits in with some other 292 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: knowledge that we have of that era, which we weren't 293 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: go into here, but you know, there were abortion rackets, 294 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: and there were stolen car rackets, and there were all 295 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: sorts of rackets, and there's a suggestion that some police 296 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: were in on the joke with some things. And it's 297 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: conceivable that someone somewhere had a bit of an inn 298 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: with some crooks from over in that area. Because if 299 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: this is a contract killing, it has to be carried 300 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: out by someone who's capable of doing it and he's 301 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: willing to do it, and that is going to be 302 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: a real bona fide a crook, not just some burglar 303 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: with a sawn off twenty two, and there weren't really 304 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: that many of those sort of people available, available and 305 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: willing to kill an innocent young woman, a young woman 306 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: who's got a child, who's never done anything wrong. She's 307 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: not a crim herself. There's not a lot of hit 308 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: men around in nineteen eighty one who are up to 309 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: do such a job and willing to do that particular job. 310 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: It cuts down the numbers to a handful. Interesting in 311 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: itself that Clifford Jones was able to reach out and 312 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: find such a person. Now, the story we can now 313 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: tell is the full and frank version of what actually 314 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: went on. Clifford Jones was a serial husband. He'd moved 315 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: on from his original wife to Anchie, if not to 316 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: somebody else in the interim even and he moved from 317 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: Anchie to another even younger woman. So Clifford was in 318 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: his late thirties or whatever when he gets with Angie 319 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: in her twenties. He's a decade or years older than Ancie. 320 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: The next one is the girl that he hires to 321 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,959 Speaker 1: work at his garage, to sit at the console and 322 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: take the money from the motorists. She's eighteen years old 323 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: when she gets to work for him. She's just basically 324 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: come out of school. She was originally from Romsey and 325 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: her name in those days, her name was Arlene Tracy, Scotland, 326 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: Scotland as in the country. And Arlene was a nice 327 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: young woman, long dark red hair. She was young, and 328 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: she was naive, and she fell for the blarney and 329 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: the bullshit that Clifford Jones provided. He was by this 330 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: stage in his forties. He was a sharp looking, sharp dresser. 331 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: He actually looked a lot like Charlie Wats, the Rolling 332 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: Stone drummer, who'd be about the same era, roughly very similar. 333 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: And you know, sharp dress cars always had a pocket 334 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: full of money because he had these stolen car parts 335 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: rackets that he was involved in back at the ZF 336 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: transmission place when he first met anchie. He had this 337 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: racket going inside this big factory where they were taking 338 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: all this German made ZEDF gearboxes and all that sort 339 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: of stuff. Clients would send in a car with a 340 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: gearbox that was blown up, and they would be supposed 341 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: to fit it with a brand new gearbox and then 342 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: send it back to the people and either under warranty 343 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: or to sell it to them for the full price. 344 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: And what he used to do, being a cunning reptile, 345 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: he would patch up people's gearboxes. He would just repair 346 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: the existing gearboxes with a few secondhand parts, get the 347 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: car running. And of course it's impossible to look at 348 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: a gearbox once it's all together and running, so most 349 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: people would just say oh, thank you and take it 350 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: away and drive it. Meanwhile, they would be charged for 351 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: the full new gearbox, which was a considerable sum, but 352 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: they didn't have it. They wasn't in their car. They 353 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: just had the brummy patch up job. And he would 354 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: take the new gearbox and he would sell it on 355 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: the black market. He would sell it through his garage 356 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: or whatever, and he'd run this fairly sophisticated, fairly organized 357 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: racket which was stripping money out of this relatively big 358 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: international firm with its big factory that was out there. 359 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: Passed foot scrape and so he had a bit of form. 360 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 1: I mean, Clifford Jones. He ran around with crooks, He 361 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: cultivated crooks and coppers and having his garage was part 362 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 1: of that. People who wanted a new V eight motor 363 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: for their Manaro or whatever it was, hot motors flash gearboxes. 364 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: Death saw that good gear, he would be the man 365 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: to supply it and fit it. And so among his 366 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: clients and his customers and his friends were the local heavies, 367 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: including a family, a big family of brothers who were 368 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: all very tough guys Italian brothers, and including some local police, 369 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: and he cultivated both groups. Now we know this is 370 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: true because Arlene, the eighteen year old girl who went 371 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: to work for him, saw it all firsthand. And while 372 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: she's sort of falling for Clifford Jones's dubious charms because 373 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: he was obviously a bullshit artist and a conman and 374 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: a very seductive operator with some form of charisma, she 375 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: is observing what goes on, and at first, of course, 376 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: she doesn't really realize the full significance of what goes on. 377 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: It was only later that it hit her. But a 378 00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: few things she couldn't really ignore, although she tried. She 379 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: realizes that, and she is shot dead after Clifford takes 380 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: on with her that the old wife has been killed 381 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: now that he's on with the even younger one. The 382 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: second thing is this, and she told me this in 383 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen in confidence, But I can break that confidence 384 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: now because since then she's died, and she won't mind. 385 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: She was scared in twenty and eighteen. She was scared 386 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: of recriminations. She was scared that she be a target, 387 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: and I was scared of the defamation laws. But neither 388 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: of those things now apply, really, And she told me 389 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: that at ten point thirty on that Tuesday, on that 390 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: fatal Tuesday, September fifteenth, nineteen eighty one, she as she 391 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: always did, went down to the corner shop three doors 392 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: down or whatever it was, and bought the morning tea, 393 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: you know, coffees and sausage rolls or whatever, and she 394 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: brought them back to the workshop in the garage, and 395 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: she'd be gone fifteen minutes or whatever. And those days, 396 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: of course, there were no mobile phones. There'd be a 397 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: phone at the garage, might have even been two phones 398 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: at the garage, but there were landlines there. And when 399 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: she got back, she remembers clearly what Clifford Jones said 400 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: to her. He looked sort of dead pan, but gloating, 401 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: let's say, And he said, the other missus Jones is 402 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: no longer with us, And that was a reference she 403 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: later realized to anchie Jones. Now this is ten thirty 404 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: in the morning, and sheie Jones has only been dead 405 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: for half an hour, forty five minutes, maybe an hour. 406 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: She's only been dead that morning. And it wasn't until 407 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: later that Arlene realized. When that story broke on the 408 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: news that night, she realized that he knew ahead of 409 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: the general public. The only people that could have known 410 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: at ten o'clock in the morning would be the killer. 411 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: Then at three point thirty four o'clock, the niece comes 412 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: home and finds the body in calls the police, and 413 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: then it starts to be disseminated. But there's only one 414 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: way that Clifford Jones would know in the morning, and 415 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: that is because he knew ahead. He was in on 416 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: the plan, and presumably while she was getting morning tea, 417 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: he had made a call or received one or some 418 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: other form of communication which confirmed that his evil plot 419 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: had come off and that his second wife, Annie Jones, 420 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: mother of their three year old child, had and shot 421 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: dead in cold blood. This gradually sunk in Arleen's young 422 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: So by the time this happens nine eighty one, she's 423 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: actually about twenty one. She's known Clifford for three years 424 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: and she's married to him, and she realized looking back 425 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: on it, she was able to join the Dots and 426 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: around that week, around that time, she recalls, she told 427 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: me many years later, going to a meeting, a dinner, 428 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: a meeting, but a dinner at a Footscray restaurant. I 429 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: think she said it was upstairs, this Footscray restaurant. I'm 430 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: not sure which one it was now doesn't matter which. 431 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: And she said it was a place that was frequented 432 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: and she must have been there before, was frequented by 433 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: some local coppers and some local crooks. It was one 434 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: of those sort of places. Only how that happens in 435 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, there used to be nightclubs 436 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: in the city of Melbourne, same thing, the heavy crooks 437 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: that get there, and so did detectives to sort of 438 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: have a bit of a look at the crooks. And 439 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: she recalls this particular week this happening, and she recalls 440 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: that in attendance was a local Italian bog who was 441 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: tough and mean and scary, had an unwavering stare and 442 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: was a very frightening man. And he had brothers who 443 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: were not much different. And he sat near her husband, 444 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: Clifford Jones, the forty something well pome mechanic, and that's interesting. 445 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: And then she saw they were having a bit of 446 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: a whisper, a bit of a talk, the two men, 447 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: and she saw her husband pass a bag I think 448 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: a paper bag type bag, not a sports bag, under 449 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: the table and handed off to this fellow we will 450 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: call him the shooter. And she saw that and thought, well, 451 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: what's funny, but later realized the significance of it. The 452 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: significance of it was her husband was paying him for 453 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: services rendered, and it was done very discreetly, but she 454 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: was sitting right there and was taking notice, and she 455 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: formed the view, particularly once she got to know more 456 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: about the shooter and his brothers, she formed the view 457 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: that they were a very very dangerous slot. And she 458 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: formed the view that the shooter had shot and she 459 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: jones in return for money. And that actually fits all 460 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: the facts. When the police went to the house the 461 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: crime scene, apart from the rear door being forced, it 462 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: didn't need a lot of forcing. There was only one 463 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: other thing that the trellis on the fence had been 464 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: broken a little bit where some athletic intruder had got 465 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: over the fence. Now this wouldn't be a little old 466 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: man or a little old lady or a kid, somebody 467 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: fairly athletic has had to climb over the fence and 468 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,239 Speaker 1: over the trellis and broke a bit of it and 469 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: then walked to the back door and forced it. And 470 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: this tallied with all the facts, we know someone next 471 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: door or two doors away heard a bang or bangs, 472 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: but thought it was a garage door, you know, the 473 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: old metal garage doors that people just clang together or 474 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: clang down. She thought it was just a garage door banging, 475 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: when in fact it was a heavy caliber pistol. And 476 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: so because the neighbor heard that banging, we know that 477 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: it was in the morning, and that makes sense. When 478 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: the doctors got there and the crime senate analysts got there, 479 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: they could tell by the state of the blood and 480 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: all the rest of it that the shooting had certainly 481 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: happened well before lunchtime, in fact, just after breakfast time. 482 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: That mystery lived on. Those two policemen, two homicide detectives 483 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: essentially knew that there was a murder that wasn't solved. 484 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: They knew in their hearts that the husband had got 485 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: away with it. They didn't know who actually pulled the trigger. 486 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: They just knew that the husband must have organized it. 487 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: They didn't know what we've just said about Arlene and 488 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: the shooter. They knew none of that back in nineteen 489 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: eighty one or nineteen eighty two or all the other 490 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: years in between. They just did not know. And this 491 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: went on for decades. Really, there was just a cold 492 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: case gathering cobwebs and dust in a homicide squad. And 493 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: then one Christmas a few years ago, probably two thousand 494 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:04,959 Speaker 1: and sixteen or seventeen, I attended the annual Christmas Drinks 495 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: with Jeff Wilkinson, hosted by Jeff Wilkinson, former Herald's Son, 496 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: crime writer, former Victoria Police media liaison boss. Very trusted 497 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: and well liked media operator in a police and crime scene. 498 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: And at that function at Jeff's place, where we're having 499 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: a few beers and some finger food and stuff like that, 500 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: I get talking to Cel Perna and Cell was always 501 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: friendly with Jeff Wilkinson. I didn't really know Sell, but 502 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: he was very easy to talk to and he was 503 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: interested in racing. And we had a chat and he 504 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: said to me, there's a story you should look at. 505 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: And I said, what's that? He said, My first job 506 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: as homicide schood detective. I was called to this house 507 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: in Saint Albans, in Theodore Streets and Albans, and it 508 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: was this girl, anchie Jones, and he told me the story. 509 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: And that's basically where I first really took notice of it. 510 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: Of course, I had seen the stories back in nine 511 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,399 Speaker 1: to eighty one, but had forgotten them. It had sort 512 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: of faded, and it never really made big, big news 513 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: because it didn't go anywhere. There were no ongoing clues. 514 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: And he said, the husband will have organized it and 515 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: he's got away with it. And all I can say is, 516 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: why don't you look at it? Well, a while later 517 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: I did, in twenty eighteen, I did look at it, 518 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: and I think it was probably an anniversary piece. But 519 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: I looked into it and I was able to get 520 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: someone who's a big help to us here. This person 521 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: is a genealogist and she has databases and she can 522 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: trace people with uncanny skill. She can find them. She 523 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: can work out where they moved from A to B 524 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: to sea, and you know who they were married to 525 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: and when they were born, and she can match up 526 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: records from different states and different countries and work out 527 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: that you know William Smith born in Wales, it becomes 528 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,439 Speaker 1: William Jones, who's living in Sydney or whatever. She knows 529 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: all that stuff, and she, through some rather brilliant checking, 530 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: was able to work out that there's a woman in Adelaide. 531 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: She told me called Arlene Tahany to e a h 532 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: e n Y, and that Arlene Toheny was originally Arlene Jones. 533 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 1: When I say originally, her previous married name ed Ben Jones, 534 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: her original name was Scotland her first name, and I thought, well, 535 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: that's good. That's a nice rare name. So we love 536 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: rare names in our business. Jones is a very bad 537 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: name because it's very common. Williams is an even worse name, 538 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: because it's even more common. That's worse than Smith, I think. 539 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: But Tahini tah e n Y, which I think is 540 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: probably Irish, but I'm not sure it is a rare name. 541 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: I've never met anyone called that. And I was able 542 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: to wring a handful of to Heeni's in Adelaide, and 543 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,439 Speaker 1: I lucked in I think the first or second call 544 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: I got this woman Arlene, and she was very surprised 545 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: and not overly delighted and probably fearful when I spoke 546 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: to her, but I put her mind at rest, and 547 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: we had a long conversation. And the more we talked, 548 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: the more we talked, because she was getting stuff off 549 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: her chest. Now, she'd been eighteen when she met Clifford Jones, 550 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: the guy that's in forty something. She's been nineteen or 551 00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: something when she married him. She's been with him rapidly 552 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: become a complete monster and ogre. She realizes fairly early 553 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: on that probably he's involved in killing his first wife 554 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 1: or his other wife, the previous wife, not his first wife, 555 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: his second wife, because Arlene is the third one. And 556 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: she told me basically everything about him, and she told 557 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: me how they'd ended up in Adelaide together, and she 558 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: told me of the escalating tension between them, and she 559 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: told me how he'd stood over her and terrified her 560 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 1: and treated her the way that a lot of these 561 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: sort of psychopathic, crazy, domestic violent husbands do treat women 562 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: really bad stuff. And she said, finally, she said, when 563 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: I was about twenty five, I grew a brain and 564 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: I realized that I didn't have to cop this and 565 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: I would be able to get out of it some way. 566 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: And she had enough in the parent spirit and grit 567 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 1: to extricate herself from that relationship. And during that process 568 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: she was pretty nervous of him because he had a 569 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,919 Speaker 1: pump action shotgun and she could tell that he could 570 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: be dangerous if he got an opportunity. And I'm not 571 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: sure exactly how she I think, whether she bolted and 572 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: just left him to it, or whether he left her 573 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: to it or what. But at some point there was 574 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: a confrontation between them where she brought up the death 575 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: of Annie Jones, and she raised it with him and said, 576 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: you killed her. I know about you. You killed her, 577 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: you got to kill and gave him the reasons why 578 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: she knew. He clearly knew that she knew, and decided 579 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: that he would withdraw and he went back to Victoria 580 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: or went away. Now, there are a few postscripts to 581 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:08,439 Speaker 1: this story, none of them make Clifford Jones look any better. 582 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: One is that that little boy, Christopher Jones, he's with 583 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: his grieving, grief stricken grandparents in Queensland because his mother 584 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: has been shot dead in Melbourne. They of course want 585 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: to keep him there and you know, look after him 586 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,280 Speaker 1: and become his guardians and all that. But Clifford Jones 587 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: wasn't having any of that. Oh no, having killed the 588 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: boy's mother, he wants to get the boy just to 589 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 1: prove a point, just because he's a sociopath. Essentially, the 590 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: grandparents are so concerned about him that they go on 591 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 1: the run. They packed up everything they owned. I don't 592 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: know if they sold their house on the quiet or 593 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: rented it out, but they went on the run in secret, 594 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: and they went right out into New South Wales, somewhere 595 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: the rural areas, and they rented a little house or whatever, 596 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: and they were under the radar with that little boy 597 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: who was you know whatever, he five six, seven years old, 598 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: And eventually Clifford Jones, he was able to enlist the 599 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: official help I think the police or whatever. Anyway, he 600 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: was able to trace the child and probably through medical 601 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,720 Speaker 1: records or educational records. Anyway, he was able to trace 602 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: the child and get there and take the child away 603 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: from the grandparents who loved him. Essentially, they were parent figures, 604 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: that little boy, and this man he couldn't even remember him, 605 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: was taking him away to live with him and with Arlene, 606 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: the young stepmother. And he's an insight into Clifford Jones. 607 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,760 Speaker 1: He didn't call him Chris or Christopher. He called him Aaron. 608 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: He gave him a completely different name. And why that 609 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: is we're not sure, but it was an example of 610 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,280 Speaker 1: him wanting to have his own way in all things, 611 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: even if it caused enormous grief and shock and all 612 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: the rest of it to everyone, including his own small 613 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: son and that poor kid. After Arlene left or got 614 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: rid of Clifford, the kid is stuck with dad. He 615 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: takes the boy with him to Melbourne and they live 616 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: in Craigieburn and a little boy is a pretty miserable life. 617 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: I mean, he was fed, and he was watered, and 618 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 1: he was clothed and all that stuff, but it's a 619 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: pretty miserable life. And of course he doesn't see much 620 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:52,279 Speaker 1: of his mother's people. And eventually, in nineteen eighty nine, 621 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: when he's eleven and he's due to go to secondary school, 622 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: Clifford Jones has a change of mind. And I don't 623 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,879 Speaker 1: know because he took up with another woman, or whether 624 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: he didn't want to pay school fees or just what 625 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: it was, but he said to the grandparents, well, if 626 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: you're so keen to have him, you have him. And 627 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: he handed this boy, who's eleven by now, back to 628 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: the grandparents who were getting quite old, and then he 629 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 1: grew up with them back in Brisbane and he never 630 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,919 Speaker 1: saw his father again. And when I got in touch 631 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:32,359 Speaker 1: with Chris Jones in twenty eighteen, he was forty years old. 632 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:38,879 Speaker 1: He was a successful computer programmer. He was with a 633 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 1: firm called Pronto. He was quite well known and quite 634 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: successful in his field, I think, quite well paid. On 635 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 1: the surface, had everything going for him. But under the surface, 636 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: he was disturbed by what had happened to him and 637 00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: to his mother, disturbed by his father's bizarre behavior, and 638 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: he was quite confused. When I talked to him, I said, 639 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: where's your father? And he said, isn't he back in 640 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: the UK? Isn't he online? A guy that's teaching at 641 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: such and such a university? And there was somebody online 642 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: called Clifford Jones. Because there's so many of them, it's 643 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: a very common name, particularly over there in Wales, there's 644 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: one hundred of them. There was a Clifford Jones who 645 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,439 Speaker 1: looked a bit like this fellow teaching some course at 646 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 1: some uni over there. I said, no, that's not him, 647 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: and he goes, oh right, I thought it was. He 648 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: had no idea where his father actually was or what 649 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 1: he did or what he was doing, who was totally 650 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: ignorant of it. He was in this intelligent forty year 651 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,840 Speaker 1: old man who I think had a wife and kids himself, 652 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,399 Speaker 1: and everything was going all right, but part of him 653 00:43:55,440 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: was still that bewildered small boy, was very damaged by 654 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: what had happened to him. Now, I left him alone, 655 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 1: and I wrote a story in twenty eighteen that did 656 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: not have nearly the number of facts in it that 657 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: we've just discussed today, because A I didn't know them all, 658 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 1: and B I couldn't use them because Clifford Jones was 659 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: still alive. Arlene was still alive and very frightened of 660 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 1: the potential ramifications, and Christopher Jones was alive and I 661 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: didn't want to upset him. Since then, a few things 662 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 1: have happened. Clifford Jones died a year ago. Arlene died 663 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 1: four years ago, that is, two years after I spoke 664 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: to her, after she told me all these gave me 665 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 1: all these hand grenades essentially of information. She died of 666 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,439 Speaker 1: quite young, relatively young, at about fifty nine years old, 667 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: of cancer, I think, and I just found out before 668 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: we did this that Chris Jones, the youngish son who's 669 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,800 Speaker 1: the son of the murder victim, who's in his early forties. 670 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 1: He committed suicide. He took his own life early this year. 671 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: And so the death of Antie Jones in nineteen eighty one, 672 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:30,240 Speaker 1: the murder of Antie Jones has really ended in misery, 673 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:36,759 Speaker 1: death and destruction, the reverberations of which are still being 674 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 1: felt today. And when I rang Anchie's niece, the schoolgirl 675 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: who discovered the body in nineteen eighty one, she's now 676 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: obviously a middle aged teacher. I think she's a secondary teacher. 677 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: And she said to me yesterday, it's all over for us. 678 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,400 Speaker 1: I just don't want to know anything about it. With 679 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: Chris gone, it's over. We just don't want to know 680 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:14,720 Speaker 1: any more about it. End of story. The obvious question, 681 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 1: of course, is where's the shooter. Well, we're not going 682 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: to name him here, but he is serving a very 683 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: long sentence for a very big robbery and he won't 684 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: be on the streets for a long time, which is 685 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 1: a good thing. Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is 686 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: a Sunday Herald Sun production for True Crime Australia. Our 687 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,279 Speaker 1: producer is Johnny Burton. For my columns, features and more, 688 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,440 Speaker 1: go to Harold's Sun dot com dot au forward slash 689 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: Andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go to news 690 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:13,759 Speaker 1: Podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. That is 691 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 1: all one word news podcasts sold. And if you want 692 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: further information about this episode, links are in the description.