WEBVTT - BONUS: Gary Jubelin joins Something To Talk About

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, guys, here's a special bonus episode for you. I

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<v Speaker 1>recently went on a podcast called Something to Talk About

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<v Speaker 1>with the host Sarah. We talked about all sorts of

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<v Speaker 1>things that have occurred in my life, how I got

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<v Speaker 1>through my police career relatively unscathed, and what I do

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<v Speaker 1>is stay sane in the world that I operated for

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<v Speaker 1>a long time, and also my post policing career, and

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of other things I didn't expect to be

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<v Speaker 1>talking about, but it was a bit of fun. I

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<v Speaker 1>hope you enjoy it.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello and welcome to Something to Talk About the Stella podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Sarah Lamarquin, to your host, and every week I

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<v Speaker 2>sit down with some of the biggest names in the

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<v Speaker 2>country because when Australia's celebrities are ready to talk, they

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<v Speaker 2>come to Something to talk about. Now, when you think

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<v Speaker 2>of mindfulness and wellness, the name Gary Jubilan might not

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<v Speaker 2>immediately spring to mind. Gary, of course, specialized in the

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<v Speaker 2>field of homicide for twenty five years, rising to the

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<v Speaker 2>rank of Detective Chief Inspector until the time of his

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<v Speaker 2>retirement from the force in twenty nineteen, a mid a

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<v Speaker 2>blaze of headlines. Since leaving, he's built another very successful career,

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<v Speaker 2>this time in the media as the author of two

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<v Speaker 2>best selling books and of course as host of one

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<v Speaker 2>of Australia's most successful podcasts, Eye Catch Killers. But here's

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<v Speaker 2>something you probably don't know about Gary. He's a big

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<v Speaker 2>fan of meditation. He's also really into yoga and he

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<v Speaker 2>believes that if you have a calm mind, it will

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<v Speaker 2>make everything better. Not perfect, but definitely better. Given it's

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<v Speaker 2>a time of year when many of us are thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about ways to improve our wellbeing and making all sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of New Year's health resolutions. On today's episode is something

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about. Gary joins me to discuss the importance

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<v Speaker 2>of mindfulness and physical and mental wellness. Gary Jubilan, Welcome

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<v Speaker 2>to the Stellar podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh thanks very much for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>Lovely to have you in the studio. It is January.

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<v Speaker 2>You and I both know it's a time of year

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<v Speaker 2>where people are starting to think this is the year

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<v Speaker 2>where I'm going to overhaul my life and make all

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<v Speaker 2>the health resolutions. So it might surprise a few people

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<v Speaker 2>that I thought now might be the perfect time to

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<v Speaker 2>have you on the podcast. Have wanted to chat to

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<v Speaker 2>you for a long time because you've actually had quite

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<v Speaker 2>an interest in wellness for a long time. But before

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<v Speaker 2>we get to that, we might talk a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>about your day job, okay, And I'd like to chat

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<v Speaker 2>to you a little bit about what a sense you

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<v Speaker 2>have with the demographic of that audience. I mean, there's

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<v Speaker 2>also a huge female following and the interest among women

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<v Speaker 2>in some of the content in podcasts like yours, and

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<v Speaker 2>the crime genre is always seem so counterintuitive.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's not the type of people you think. It

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<v Speaker 1>might be a group of blokes listening to the next

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<v Speaker 1>cop talking to people about how bad guys were caught.

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<v Speaker 1>But what and I'm proud of this with the podcast, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a volve too because I always thought when I

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<v Speaker 1>had to do a true crime podcast, I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>give the listener a sense of what crime is all about. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>crime to me in the years as a homicide detective

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<v Speaker 1>and as a police officer, it's not one dimensional, like,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not black and white. There's a gray area. There's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of pain, but there's some really beautiful moments

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<v Speaker 1>to moments of redemption and forgiveness and all sorts of things.

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<v Speaker 2>So with the.

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<v Speaker 1>Podcast, that's what I've tried to tried to create wide

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<v Speaker 1>range of guests that we have on and basically the

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<v Speaker 1>benchmark for a guest is someone that I think would

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<v Speaker 1>be interesting, that I want to sit down and chat with.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think what the podcast is providing is people

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<v Speaker 1>getting an insight into crime from all sides. So we're

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<v Speaker 1>hearing not just from cops saying this is how we

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<v Speaker 1>caught the bad guy. We're hearing from crooks and some

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<v Speaker 1>notorious criminals. Criminals that I've had a few on that

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<v Speaker 1>when they were working I were working, were confronted each other,

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<v Speaker 1>there'd probably be guns drawn. Yeah, they were league, major

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<v Speaker 1>league criminals, but I've learned that sometimes their upbringing is

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<v Speaker 1>part of why they've gone into the line of work.

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<v Speaker 1>They did also victims of crime. The emotion I pay

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<v Speaker 1>homage to the victims of crime because I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>people fully understand we see the headlines of someone being

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<v Speaker 1>murdered doesn't just impact on one person. It's not just

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<v Speaker 1>a victim, it's the families and it can go on

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<v Speaker 1>for generations. It's also allowed me to push aspects of

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<v Speaker 1>law and order where police haven't done the right thing,

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<v Speaker 1>or the legislation is not right. I can actually get

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<v Speaker 1>informed people on to talk about that and sort of

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<v Speaker 1>open people's minds up on the different way of doing things.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's sort of grown organically, but it's something that

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<v Speaker 1>I really enjoy. And when I left the Cops and

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<v Speaker 1>it was in controversial and dramatic circumstances, I had all

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<v Speaker 1>this passion, I had all this energy, and I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>know where the channel it. But I've found that I

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<v Speaker 1>have been able to channel it through the podcast and

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<v Speaker 1>actually making a difference. And quite frankly, I think I'm

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<v Speaker 1>fortunate getting to speak to all these interesting people.

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<v Speaker 2>And we're very fortunate to listen to the stories of

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<v Speaker 2>all of these interesting people. And I love what you're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about there, Gary. One of the many aspects of

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<v Speaker 2>this work that you have found yourself throwing yourself into

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<v Speaker 2>in such a big way the last five years is,

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<v Speaker 2>as you say, talking to criminals and this idea of

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<v Speaker 2>redemption or rehabilitation. Can I ask you about your own

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<v Speaker 2>journey with that, because I would imagine coming through as

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<v Speaker 2>a homicide detective, as you say, you're on the sort

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<v Speaker 2>of other side, quote unquote, so to speak, while you're

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<v Speaker 2>in the force, will youse somebody that always had a

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<v Speaker 2>possible empathy or a curiosity about what had led to

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<v Speaker 2>somebody to create a criminal act.

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<v Speaker 1>It's interesting that you say the word empathy, and if

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<v Speaker 1>people ask me to describe what the good carteristic of

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<v Speaker 1>a detective is empathy. And all the people that I

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<v Speaker 1>looked up to, the homicide detectives, the ones that I

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<v Speaker 1>really strive to work at the level, they work one

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<v Speaker 1>common thing and it even comes out in the podcast

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<v Speaker 1>they talk about empathy, and I think that's so important

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<v Speaker 1>to understand. I think I've I've become a better person

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<v Speaker 1>after what's happened to me in the police. When I

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<v Speaker 1>was in the police, I had the empathy and that

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<v Speaker 1>I very much victim focus. But in regards to the

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<v Speaker 1>bad guys, I didn't have time to sort of reflect on, well,

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<v Speaker 1>you might have had a tough upbringing. Basically, a case

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<v Speaker 1>is allocated to you work the case, you solve it

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<v Speaker 1>if you can, you put it before the courts, and

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<v Speaker 1>then you move on to the next one. So I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have a lot of time to reflect on why

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<v Speaker 1>this person is committing these type of offenses. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's so crucial in understanding crime and really

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<v Speaker 1>in the fight against crime. I always thought I was

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<v Speaker 1>making a big difference with powers of arrests, my handcuffs,

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<v Speaker 1>my gum, and I'm a cop and making a difference

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<v Speaker 1>in the world of crime. And I like to think

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<v Speaker 1>I did with the stuff that I was doing, but

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<v Speaker 1>I realized there's a lot of other people out there

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<v Speaker 1>that work just as hard and probably have a bigger impact,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're not cops. There. The people are helping people

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<v Speaker 1>steer them in the right direction, that type of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And you also mentioned redemption, and I think redemption is

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<v Speaker 1>such a beautiful thing. I love a story of redemption,

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<v Speaker 1>like someone that's been at rock bottom and then finds

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<v Speaker 1>their way out of it. I find it quite inspiring.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think it's also I imagine Gary has so

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<v Speaker 2>much impact that coming from you, because if a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people say myself, like a female journalist, if I

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<v Speaker 2>was talking about redemption and rehabilitation, people might go, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>here we go a bleeding heart. Although actually I did

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<v Speaker 2>study law for a while because I wanted to be

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<v Speaker 2>a criminal prosecutor. That was career plan B. Maybe I

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<v Speaker 2>should have followed that little safer than media. But I digress.

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<v Speaker 2>But as I say that, it is easy to sort

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<v Speaker 2>of dismiss these conversations about redemption. As you know, bleeding heart,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll get over it, but from you, it is unexpected.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think also does really have such cut through

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<v Speaker 2>given the work that you've done and what you've seen

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<v Speaker 2>throughout the course of your career.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it helps. And someone Ken marslu his son was

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<v Speaker 1>murdered over twenty years ago, shot during the armed robbery

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<v Speaker 1>and killed and his son was only eighteen nineteen working

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<v Speaker 1>his way with the pizza prou Uni and I got

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<v Speaker 1>to I knew of Ken when I was in the police,

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<v Speaker 1>but I didn't work his son's case. But we met

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<v Speaker 1>up after I left the police, and I was sort

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<v Speaker 1>of overwhelmed with a lot of things that were going

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<v Speaker 1>on in my life. And yeah, it was almost imposter syndrome.

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<v Speaker 1>I've gone from policing then I'm working in the media

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<v Speaker 1>and all that. And he said, you have got an

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<v Speaker 1>important platform because of who you are and what you've

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<v Speaker 1>done and take getting back to the point that you raised,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's where it does carry some weight in

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<v Speaker 1>that I'm not looked at as a bleeding heart. So

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<v Speaker 1>if I'm saying, hey, maybe we could do things a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit differently, people do they can't just write me

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<v Speaker 1>off as a do gooder, and they actually listen. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's the people on the other side of

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<v Speaker 1>the law, like the people that have been in trouble

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<v Speaker 1>with the law. I think they start to see what

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<v Speaker 1>I can deliver to that I'll actually listen to them,

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<v Speaker 1>get to know them, and then you know if there's

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<v Speaker 1>a reason why they've committed a crime or how we

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<v Speaker 1>could change that. I think that's making a big difference

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<v Speaker 1>in the world of crime. So that's where I feel

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<v Speaker 1>like I'm still doing something that I'm passionate about, because

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not very good at doing stuff. If I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>passionate about it, I can fake it, but I don't

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<v Speaker 1>make it. But if I'm really driven by something, I

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<v Speaker 1>can frame myself in one hundred percent.

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<v Speaker 2>I would imagine a few people have asked you over

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<v Speaker 2>the past five years about what skills you drew upon

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<v Speaker 2>or what you had to learn about a career pivot.

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<v Speaker 2>But I I think the word empathy, which is clearly

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<v Speaker 2>a word that is important to you and resonates. I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's a really critical component of being a journalist

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<v Speaker 2>or a storyteller or an interviewer. And I think It's

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<v Speaker 2>something that clearly permeates your work on I Catch Killers

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<v Speaker 2>and in your other work and your books. So that

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<v Speaker 2>I think is a very underrated character reistic as a journalist.

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<v Speaker 2>I would imagine it probably was in the police force

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<v Speaker 2>as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I had a lot of success in some investigations because

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<v Speaker 1>I would like, whether it's criminal informants, witnesses or whatever,

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<v Speaker 1>I'd give a little bit of myself. I was all in,

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<v Speaker 1>so it wasn't me just asking questions with no emotion.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd be sitting there, I'd be living the emotion with them.

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<v Speaker 1>If I've got an informant. Some of the organized crime

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<v Speaker 1>jobs I know we're talking about, we're rolling the dice

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<v Speaker 1>with your life, Like if they're going to give up

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<v Speaker 1>these people, they will be killed if they find out.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's a genuineness to it. You can't fake it.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think one thing in policing, especially at the

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<v Speaker 1>sharp end like homicide investigation, people are attuned. They're hyper

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<v Speaker 1>alert on your emotions. If you're faking it, if you're

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<v Speaker 1>sitting there and you're taking a statement you're not really interested,

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<v Speaker 1>people get it and they shut up. So I learned

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<v Speaker 1>that skill, and I think that was transferable into my

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<v Speaker 1>redirecting my energies into the media. But when policing was

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<v Speaker 1>taken away from me, that was a hard, hard point.

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<v Speaker 1>I had to basically pick myself up and go because

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it was front page paper and Painter is

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<v Speaker 1>a corrupt cop. And I think I've talked about it enough,

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<v Speaker 1>but recording conversations on the telephone. I'm not ashamed of

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<v Speaker 1>what I did, but it was confronting. The passion I

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<v Speaker 1>had for policing was literally taken away from me overnight.

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<v Speaker 1>So when I try to explain that to people, think

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<v Speaker 1>of the thing you're most passionate about in life, and

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<v Speaker 1>then one day, in an instant, it's taken away and

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<v Speaker 1>you're not allowed to do it. Do it anymore. Because

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<v Speaker 1>that's what I went through. So I felt sorry for

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<v Speaker 1>myself and I had on the lounge and I think

0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:05.439
<v Speaker 1>it got to the point where and this is sort

0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.760
<v Speaker 1>of over a couple of weeks, months and different things

0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.040
<v Speaker 1>sitting there and I'm just sitting on the lounge eleven

0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.360
<v Speaker 1>o'clock in the morning. I hadn't trained, and normally I

0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.480
<v Speaker 1>would train every day, and I just basically had to

0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.280
<v Speaker 1>give myself an upper cut and get up stupid and

0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.080
<v Speaker 1>the thing that may evated me. I've seen you know,

0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm crying poor, Well, what's happened to me? I lost

0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.400
<v Speaker 1>a job, but I've got opportunity, so it wasn't that bad.

0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.560
<v Speaker 1>So it sort of picked myself up and got on

0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:32.319
<v Speaker 1>with things.

0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.760
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to ask you, Gary a little bit about

0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.720
<v Speaker 2>the true crime genre and how you feel about it

0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:44.800
<v Speaker 2>as somebody that unlike a lot of other people internationally

0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.800
<v Speaker 2>as well, it's a huge genre who have become really

0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:52.280
<v Speaker 2>well known content creators to use the current vernacular in

0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:56.760
<v Speaker 2>the space, there is obviously a high risk of exploitation.

0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:59.880
<v Speaker 2>In fact, there is not just a high risk of exploitation,

0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.800
<v Speaker 2>we see blatant exploitation of victim stories. This year will

0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.520
<v Speaker 2>mark ten years since the release of Making a Murderer

0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.000
<v Speaker 2>on Netflix. It was a massive hit at the time.

0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:15.440
<v Speaker 2>For me, it just felt that the female victim of

0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.920
<v Speaker 2>that homicide was completely relegated to a footnote. And then

0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.800
<v Speaker 2>obviously we've seen some other true crime work where the

0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.280
<v Speaker 2>reverse has happened. I mean, I think the Teacher's Pet

0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:29.840
<v Speaker 2>is an example where absolutely like a female victim who

0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.240
<v Speaker 2>had been forgotten and justice had never been achieved, but

0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:38.160
<v Speaker 2>because of your lifelong work with victims, your advocacy, your

0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:43.800
<v Speaker 2>actual cold hard record in you have, as the title says,

0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.079
<v Speaker 2>I catch killers and people have you know, justice has

0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.880
<v Speaker 2>been achieved because of work done by you and your team.

0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.600
<v Speaker 2>How does that sit with you? Do you agree that

0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.400
<v Speaker 2>there is some exploitation? Where do you draw the line?

0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? A good question because that was part of what

0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.240
<v Speaker 1>I struggled with when I first signed up. And you know,

0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.000
<v Speaker 1>when I left the police, I was offered a lot

0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.559
<v Speaker 1>of different opportunities, and some of it I would have

0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.840
<v Speaker 1>considered glorifying crime. What are we trying to achieve with this?

0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.360
<v Speaker 1>Are we recreating the crime that's already been solved? What's

0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.200
<v Speaker 1>it about? So I was very wary of that because

0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.360
<v Speaker 1>I would have felt like a hypocrite, given that I've

0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.800
<v Speaker 1>dedicated my career to you know, I believe looking after

0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.520
<v Speaker 1>victims and the interests of victims. To exploit that situation,

0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.360
<v Speaker 1>I think there's a fine line. And that's when I

0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.520
<v Speaker 1>talk about the way I Catch Killers podcast. I give

0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.920
<v Speaker 1>everyone the platform, so I'm not telling the listener what

0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 1>view they should take, but allowing them to understand it,

0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:44.280
<v Speaker 1>not glorifying the crime. Understanding the ramifications the impact that

0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.960
<v Speaker 1>has on people. I think that gets lost and I

0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 1>sometimes the true crime podcast just get polished up, and

0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.000
<v Speaker 1>to me, that's not what crimes about. People find it

0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.240
<v Speaker 1>interesting when I'm sitting down speaking to victims of crime,

0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 1>and it could be in the most horrend the situations

0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:04.480
<v Speaker 1>where they've lost family members, multiple family members or things

0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:08.320
<v Speaker 1>like that, and they hear me laughing and laughing with

0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:12.000
<v Speaker 1>the people I'm speaking with. That's how you handle the emotion.

0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:16.240
<v Speaker 1>It's not disrespectful to the victims. It's a fact that

0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.480
<v Speaker 1>it's a fact of life. That's the way that people

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.480
<v Speaker 1>have got to get through. So quite often I'll have

0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.320
<v Speaker 1>victims of crime on there, but they still find joy.

0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:28.000
<v Speaker 1>But that's about surviving. That's about surviving crime. Some of

0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.440
<v Speaker 1>the podcasts and I don't want to be critical of

0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.760
<v Speaker 1>the podcast because they bring in other types of podcasts,

0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.880
<v Speaker 1>because they bring in a level of difference that I

0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.600
<v Speaker 1>don't have. But that's what I'm proud of with By

0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:42.760
<v Speaker 1>Catch Killers is that I never forget where I've come

0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.080
<v Speaker 1>from and I never forget the impact. And so people

0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:48.640
<v Speaker 1>have got a story and they're allowed to tell the story.

0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:52.040
<v Speaker 1>But the interest You've said about who's the listeners on

0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:56.600
<v Speaker 1>true crime podcasts, like why women are interested? I get

0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:58.920
<v Speaker 1>to asked that question a lot. I've heard other people

0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.800
<v Speaker 1>answer the question. Some people say, and I'm making a

0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.960
<v Speaker 1>general comment, but women think they can change people, which

0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.000
<v Speaker 1>I hadn't heard that. That wasn't my comment. But women

0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:12.280
<v Speaker 1>listen and think, Okay, well, if someone's gone off track,

0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.480
<v Speaker 1>maybe they needed this, maybe they needed that. I think

0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.560
<v Speaker 1>it comes down to this is my take on it.

0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.280
<v Speaker 1>The world of crime is fascinating because we always want

0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.880
<v Speaker 1>to see what's behind the curtain, and with true crime

0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.680
<v Speaker 1>podcasts you get to see we like to might come

0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.160
<v Speaker 1>from a kid, like a scary movie or whatever. In

0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.760
<v Speaker 1>the early days. We want to find out, you know,

0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.920
<v Speaker 1>we want to be shocked, and it just makes what

0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.200
<v Speaker 1>can be a fairly normal life a little bit more interesting.

0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.400
<v Speaker 1>But I think the thing that really kicks in and

0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.240
<v Speaker 1>I think if we're all on us, we've gott to

0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:48.760
<v Speaker 1>put our hands up to it. We all think we're detectives,

0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.400
<v Speaker 1>we've got an inquiry in mind, and everyone thinks, give

0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.600
<v Speaker 1>me the facts als of it. And I think that's

0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.320
<v Speaker 1>just human nature. I think it's funny. I've been I've

0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:58.920
<v Speaker 1>now been out of the business. I'm one of those

0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.560
<v Speaker 1>chair critics that I think this person's done it or

0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 1>that person. But I think that's in our nature. We're

0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 1>curious and we want to solve things, so I think

0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.320
<v Speaker 1>that sort of buys into it. But also that side

0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:12.080
<v Speaker 1>of life that people generally don't get to see, but

0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.040
<v Speaker 1>they can have a look without any danger associated with it,

0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:16.920
<v Speaker 1>So I think that's where the interest comes.

0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.959
<v Speaker 2>And coming up Gary on meditation, yoga and the importance

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:31.119
<v Speaker 2>of a calm mind. Obviously mentioned earlier, the circumstances in

0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.679
<v Speaker 2>which he left the force, and obously I think it

0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.560
<v Speaker 2>was the William Terrell investigation. Of course when he disappeared

0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:43.040
<v Speaker 2>in twenty fourteen that really obviously catapulted you, for better

0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.800
<v Speaker 2>or worse at the time, into being a really household name.

0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.440
<v Speaker 2>But before that, of course, there had been Underbelly Badness,

0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.720
<v Speaker 2>which was the fifth series of the famous Underbelly franchise

0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:59.000
<v Speaker 2>on nine and the series aired in twenty twelve, where

0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:03.720
<v Speaker 2>a character based on You was played by Matt Nabel.

0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.720
<v Speaker 2>Whether it was that or before that, you obviously were

0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:11.639
<v Speaker 2>a lot more high profile than the average homicide detective.

0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.080
<v Speaker 2>Even before the William Terrell case, When did you first

0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.719
<v Speaker 2>become aware of the moment that you were starting to

0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:20.360
<v Speaker 2>lose your anonymity.

0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:26.080
<v Speaker 1>I think within the organization, earlier public a little bit

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:31.840
<v Speaker 1>later at the stage of the Underbelly series. I've been

0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:36.199
<v Speaker 1>doing homicide investigation for a very long time, and that

0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.920
<v Speaker 1>was the first time a serving police officer has been

0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:43.000
<v Speaker 1>portrayed as a serving police officer. So it was there

0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.280
<v Speaker 1>was no hiding. That was me and I remember speaking

0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.560
<v Speaker 1>to the police media unit who gave the approval for

0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.200
<v Speaker 1>it to go through because it was a positive representation

0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.280
<v Speaker 1>of police. And I'm proud of that investigation that we

0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.119
<v Speaker 1>did as a team, not just myself. It was a

0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 1>team effort. But that changed the landscape for me. What

0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.840
<v Speaker 1>I found within my own organization there was some resentment,

0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:13.000
<v Speaker 1>resentment from people about was he getting recognition The people

0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.200
<v Speaker 1>that I respect, the ones that I respected as detectives,

0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.560
<v Speaker 1>they were approach and go good on you, because they

0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:21.959
<v Speaker 1>work just as hard, if not harder, than I did.

0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.920
<v Speaker 1>And they realized it was just by fate that they've

0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.879
<v Speaker 1>picked up on that investigation. I could use it in

0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 1>my favor, and it was also detrimental in a way

0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 1>if I got in the witness box at court. The

0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.000
<v Speaker 1>barristers like I was in the witness box all the

0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:39.760
<v Speaker 1>time at murder trials. The barristers wanted to beat up

0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.119
<v Speaker 1>on the that's that Gary Jubilan character from Underbelly. So

0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:46.520
<v Speaker 1>that sort of worked against me my own organization. I

0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:50.920
<v Speaker 1>think they became wary of me. They couldn't understand where

0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.359
<v Speaker 1>I was coming from. My passion was doing the work.

0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.240
<v Speaker 1>I wasn't trying to climb the promotional ladder. I wasn't

0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:58.600
<v Speaker 1>interested in that. I found that further up you went

0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:02.879
<v Speaker 1>more boring. It got tied. As a chief inspector, I

0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.800
<v Speaker 1>could use it in my favor with the crooks, like

0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.480
<v Speaker 1>if I knock on the door and they answered the door,

0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.639
<v Speaker 1>oh shit, that's that dude, the dude from Underbelly, and

0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:14.919
<v Speaker 1>they know it's serious. So it could work work in

0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:19.400
<v Speaker 1>my favor. But that gave me the sort of public profile.

0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.639
<v Speaker 1>There was a lot of other ones, and there's a

0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.720
<v Speaker 1>lot of jobs that I did that didn't attract public attention,

0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:27.840
<v Speaker 1>but just a few of the high profile ones. But

0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.040
<v Speaker 1>bearing in mind, I was in homicide for over twenty

0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.800
<v Speaker 1>years or twenty five years. I was investigating homicide, so

0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:36.920
<v Speaker 1>people become aware of who you are.

0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:39.840
<v Speaker 2>And then, as you say, there was a little bit

0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.679
<v Speaker 2>of resentment. There were things that worked in your favor,

0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.520
<v Speaker 2>but I suppose it's made you a little bit of

0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.399
<v Speaker 2>a target in some ways. Was that then what you

0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.680
<v Speaker 2>think maybe came to a head with the Tyrill investigation.

0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Do you think if you hadn't had that high profile

0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.400
<v Speaker 2>that because we know sometimes when people have got scores

0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:03.560
<v Speaker 2>to settle for whatever reason, whether it's jealousy or other

0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:07.280
<v Speaker 2>things that I mean, I could speculate about that. You

0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.320
<v Speaker 2>then as soon as people think, well, here's here's the

0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.680
<v Speaker 2>opportunity to bring this person down, do you feel that

0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:16.560
<v Speaker 2>was probably maybe, looking back, pave the way.

0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.600
<v Speaker 1>I think it was. And I say this, and I'm

0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:21.560
<v Speaker 1>not choosing in words, because I mean, I think there

0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:25.240
<v Speaker 1>were some very narrow people that wanted to bring me

0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:30.280
<v Speaker 1>down and spiteful, spitefully in the way that it all

0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.480
<v Speaker 1>played out with me. But when it all blew up,

0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:35.199
<v Speaker 1>and it blew up and it was leaked to the

0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.560
<v Speaker 1>media recording a conversation on my telephone, still shake my

0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:40.399
<v Speaker 1>head at that. Given the fact that we had listening

0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.440
<v Speaker 1>devices in the place approved by a Supreme Court judge

0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:45.359
<v Speaker 1>I could go on and on, but it bores people

0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:50.200
<v Speaker 1>and I understand understand that. But what gave me a

0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.159
<v Speaker 1>lot of strength was I got people from across the country,

0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.880
<v Speaker 1>detectives that are high profile detectives from across the country,

0:21:57.080 --> 0:21:59.080
<v Speaker 1>some of which I didn't even know, but they reached

0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:03.119
<v Speaker 1>out to me and said, we've been through this same process,

0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:05.760
<v Speaker 1>the same thing. You know, we got a reputation and

0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:10.240
<v Speaker 1>the organization turns on you like that. It was annoying,

0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:13.560
<v Speaker 1>It was frustrating the impact that have on the wiim

0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Tural matter. I think was devastating. There are other investigations

0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:21.160
<v Speaker 1>that I was working on that I just had to well,

0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:23.960
<v Speaker 1>I wasn't allowed to work on them anymore. So that

0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.840
<v Speaker 1>hurt me more than losing my career. The fact that

0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:32.640
<v Speaker 1>I'd made the commitment to William Tyrell's Families, foster and biological,

0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.520
<v Speaker 1>I'd do everything humanly possible and other investigations that was

0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:41.560
<v Speaker 1>all taken away. And so it was hurtful. But a

0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:43.800
<v Speaker 1>good friend of mine and I had a lot of

0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:47.359
<v Speaker 1>good people reach out to me, and one bit of

0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:51.040
<v Speaker 1>advice I've got was, you know, you can take opportunity here.

0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:54.359
<v Speaker 1>You can even embrace You've got a whole world open

0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:58.080
<v Speaker 1>to you now and embrace it, or you could wallow

0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.240
<v Speaker 1>in yourself pity, but you'll get one time wallowing in

0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:04.080
<v Speaker 1>yourself pity and everyone going, Okay, we've heard that before.

0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:09.879
<v Speaker 1>Nick Caldos, a deputy commissioner he left the police before me.

0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:14.199
<v Speaker 1>He reached out and said, Gary, you will see the

0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.080
<v Speaker 1>world is so much bigger outside the police. You think

0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:20.000
<v Speaker 1>the police is a big world, but you're very insular

0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:21.760
<v Speaker 1>in the way that you think, like who's going to

0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:23.639
<v Speaker 1>be the next commissioner and all that. When it's all

0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:26.360
<v Speaker 1>said and done, who cares other than people within the police.

0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:29.760
<v Speaker 1>He said, wait till you see the world world outside,

0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:32.400
<v Speaker 1>and he said, you know, there's so much on offer

0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:35.720
<v Speaker 1>outside there. And I found that. Yeah.

0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:39.240
<v Speaker 2>They were very accurate words, weren't they. And I think

0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:42.080
<v Speaker 2>a great message also for people to hear at any time,

0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:46.119
<v Speaker 2>but especially this time of year, where people are reflecting

0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.000
<v Speaker 2>on the year that was and then the year that's ahead.

0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:52.439
<v Speaker 2>And if people listening are working through anything, or they

0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:55.360
<v Speaker 2>feel that they've got unfinished business or where I am

0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:57.760
<v Speaker 2>right now, there's no way of getting through this. I

0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:02.000
<v Speaker 2>think these stories of resilient and of thinking, oh, it's

0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:06.600
<v Speaker 2>never going to be better than what I had before,

0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:09.040
<v Speaker 2>But you're living proof that even though you don't know

0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.679
<v Speaker 2>it at the time, even the hardest moments can be

0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:12.960
<v Speaker 2>the start of a whole new chapter.

0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:16.440
<v Speaker 1>I think that has opened up so many different things

0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:19.320
<v Speaker 1>in my life. And I know I wouldn't have been

0:24:19.359 --> 0:24:21.040
<v Speaker 1>able to walk away from the police. I was too

0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:22.880
<v Speaker 1>passionate about it, so I would have stayed there till

0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:24.800
<v Speaker 1>the day I died, I think, and that would have

0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:28.280
<v Speaker 1>been there one more case, one more case. So this

0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:31.960
<v Speaker 1>was a chance to reset and rethink the way I

0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:36.439
<v Speaker 1>approach approach, approach things, and it was good for me.

0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:38.560
<v Speaker 1>It was a wake up call for me and I

0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:42.080
<v Speaker 1>had to I'm proud of the fact I sit here,

0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:44.880
<v Speaker 1>proud of the fact that I always thought I love

0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:47.080
<v Speaker 1>being in the police, but I didn't need to be

0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:49.520
<v Speaker 1>in the police. And I think there's people that hide

0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:51.600
<v Speaker 1>behind the fact that they've got power with a badge

0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:54.960
<v Speaker 1>and the authority that comes with the police. I was

0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:57.400
<v Speaker 1>never beholding to the police. I did it because I

0:24:57.440 --> 0:24:59.199
<v Speaker 1>loved it. I knew I could make a life for

0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:02.800
<v Speaker 1>myself out soide police, But policing is what I chose

0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:05.879
<v Speaker 1>to do as my vacation and my passion. I'm proud

0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:07.960
<v Speaker 1>of the fact that I've had to put it to

0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:10.560
<v Speaker 1>the test and Okay, take my gun, take my badge,

0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:13.960
<v Speaker 1>take my power to take everything away from me. And look,

0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:17.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm still standing. I'm still surviving and quite enjoying myself

0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:21.400
<v Speaker 1>and coming into the media. I'm always one that believes

0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:24.200
<v Speaker 1>you've got to pay your dues, and it was confronting

0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:26.240
<v Speaker 1>that I still to this day, five years down the

0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:28.960
<v Speaker 1>track and I've managed to carve out a career in

0:25:29.000 --> 0:25:32.480
<v Speaker 1>the media, I've still got that imposter syndrome feeling about me,

0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:35.639
<v Speaker 1>going what am I doing here? Like I think the

0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:37.600
<v Speaker 1>first article I wrote for the paper was on the

0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:40.680
<v Speaker 1>front page, Like how terrifying. I wish I paid more attention.

0:25:40.760 --> 0:25:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's not like getting it as a cadet.

0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:47.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking I haven't paid my dues so I had

0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:50.000
<v Speaker 1>the last five years. I've worked very hard. But that's me,

0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:52.760
<v Speaker 1>just something that's instilled in me. Pay your dues to

0:25:52.840 --> 0:25:56.080
<v Speaker 1>get where you are. And I'm always with the podcast

0:25:56.320 --> 0:25:59.159
<v Speaker 1>You're only as good as your last podcast. And a

0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:02.280
<v Speaker 1>fear of failure I saw to carry with me and

0:26:02.320 --> 0:26:05.040
<v Speaker 1>my father installed that in me. I've tried to install

0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:08.000
<v Speaker 1>in my kids enjoy the success rather than fear the failure.

0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:10.160
<v Speaker 1>But I've always been one of the fear of the failure.

0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:12.600
<v Speaker 1>So that's why I sort of keep pushing and pushing.

0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:15.840
<v Speaker 2>Did you have that ever feeling of being an impost

0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:17.479
<v Speaker 2>when you were in the force.

0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:22.400
<v Speaker 1>There was policing and myself felt like a glove From

0:26:22.440 --> 0:26:24.600
<v Speaker 1>the day I walked into the academy, I thought, Yep,

0:26:24.680 --> 0:26:26.960
<v Speaker 1>this is what I'm meant to do. I was aimless.

0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:28.879
<v Speaker 1>I was working in the building industry. I didn't have

0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:31.720
<v Speaker 1>much direction. There's a lot of people you don't find

0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:36.000
<v Speaker 1>you true passion. Early when I got into policing, just yeah,

0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:39.040
<v Speaker 1>I can do this. I'm working with people all the

0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:43.000
<v Speaker 1>skills that I had come into play with in the police.

0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:45.800
<v Speaker 1>And then there was a period in time when I

0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:48.439
<v Speaker 1>became a homicide detective and I strived for that and

0:26:48.440 --> 0:26:51.680
<v Speaker 1>I was so excited when I'm actually a homicide detective

0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:55.720
<v Speaker 1>working cases and then leading cases. And then it got

0:26:56.000 --> 0:26:59.240
<v Speaker 1>to a point where I looked around and thought, I

0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:02.239
<v Speaker 1>am the most ex experient's homicide detective. There there's no

0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:05.600
<v Speaker 1>one else I can confer with. And I say that

0:27:05.640 --> 0:27:10.680
<v Speaker 1>there their peers that I would consult with on difficult cases.

0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:13.480
<v Speaker 1>But that was fairly confronting when you sort of look

0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:17.200
<v Speaker 1>around and go, okay, well, if this murder happens, who's

0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:19.320
<v Speaker 1>going to do it? And I remember saying and someone

0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:23.159
<v Speaker 1>thought I was a bit cocky and arrogant. That someone

0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:26.000
<v Speaker 1>was saying a boss. I didn't quite agree with what

0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:28.920
<v Speaker 1>she was saying. And she was talking about the importance

0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:33.280
<v Speaker 1>of career development and working your way up the career ladder,

0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:36.480
<v Speaker 1>and I said, you know what my dream is is

0:27:36.600 --> 0:27:39.359
<v Speaker 1>if you're interested, because you've told me what your dream

0:27:39.440 --> 0:27:41.639
<v Speaker 1>is and what you want to achieve, and it's climbing

0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:44.679
<v Speaker 1>up the corporate ladder. Within the police, I want to

0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:46.879
<v Speaker 1>be if the Prime Minister gets murdered, I want to

0:27:46.920 --> 0:27:49.240
<v Speaker 1>be the person they call to investigate the prime minister

0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:52.760
<v Speaker 1>being murdered. That is that's where my expertise is. So

0:27:53.480 --> 0:27:57.080
<v Speaker 1>that's the one thing that I'm confident in saying that

0:27:57.160 --> 0:27:59.479
<v Speaker 1>I was good at in life, and I'd fail at

0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:03.680
<v Speaker 1>more things, not successful at homicide investigation. That just saw

0:28:03.720 --> 0:28:06.320
<v Speaker 1>of worked for me. I understood the science behind that,

0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.240
<v Speaker 1>the psychology behind it, and the passion that you needed

0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:12.119
<v Speaker 1>to investigate homicide.

0:28:12.560 --> 0:28:15.080
<v Speaker 2>Well before then we move on to a different topic.

0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Just wanted to ask then about the William Tyrell investigation

0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:23.439
<v Speaker 2>and his disappearance, because, as you said, Gary, that was

0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:26.800
<v Speaker 2>something that felt like unfinished business to you and that

0:28:26.880 --> 0:28:31.600
<v Speaker 2>you had made promises or felt a responsibility to his family,

0:28:31.680 --> 0:28:35.680
<v Speaker 2>both his foster family and his biological family. Last year

0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:39.600
<v Speaker 2>was ten years since his disappearance. The matter has been

0:28:39.680 --> 0:28:44.320
<v Speaker 2>back before the courts. There's a podcast that's also part

0:28:44.360 --> 0:28:49.320
<v Speaker 2>of my team. Producer at Fabulous Dan Box, Anina Young,

0:28:49.480 --> 0:28:52.160
<v Speaker 2>and news dot com dot are you witness William Tyrel?

0:28:53.880 --> 0:28:57.600
<v Speaker 2>Where are you in terms of being reconciled with the case,

0:28:57.680 --> 0:29:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Do you think that there will ever be close there?

0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:05.160
<v Speaker 2>And how are you feeling about your connection with that

0:29:05.320 --> 0:29:07.640
<v Speaker 2>and the family at this point in your life and career.

0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:11.600
<v Speaker 1>It's a difficult one for me. There's not a day

0:29:11.640 --> 0:29:13.880
<v Speaker 1>that goes by where someone doesn't speak to me about

0:29:13.880 --> 0:29:16.560
<v Speaker 1>the wim tural matter, or I'm not thinking about the

0:29:16.960 --> 0:29:21.960
<v Speaker 1>wim tural matter. I think it's disgraceful the way it's

0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:24.960
<v Speaker 1>playing out at the moment. I am as confused. I've

0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:27.560
<v Speaker 1>been off it now for five coming on six years.

0:29:28.200 --> 0:29:31.239
<v Speaker 1>I think I'm as confused as a public as the

0:29:31.240 --> 0:29:34.880
<v Speaker 1>information that's got out, not just blaming the police, media

0:29:34.960 --> 0:29:38.200
<v Speaker 1>or reported on things that I know are not not correct,

0:29:38.720 --> 0:29:42.200
<v Speaker 1>and everyone's got an opinion what I think in terms

0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:45.120
<v Speaker 1>of closure, I think there really needs and I've said

0:29:45.160 --> 0:29:47.720
<v Speaker 1>this and I'll say it again, I think there needs

0:29:47.720 --> 0:29:50.720
<v Speaker 1>to be some form of inquiry what's happened with that investigation.

0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:53.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm not seeing things come out at the inquest that

0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:58.200
<v Speaker 1>I thought irrelevant. I led that investigation for four years,

0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:02.640
<v Speaker 1>documented all decisions I made and the directions the investigation

0:30:02.880 --> 0:30:07.880
<v Speaker 1>was headed in and I am quite confused the way

0:30:08.080 --> 0:30:13.440
<v Speaker 1>it's played out and publicly how the foster mother has

0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:16.440
<v Speaker 1>been nominated as a person of interest. I make this

0:30:16.480 --> 0:30:19.760
<v Speaker 1>point when I took the investigation over five months after

0:30:20.560 --> 0:30:25.240
<v Speaker 1>William's disappearance. In the handover from Detective Chief Inspector hands Rupp,

0:30:25.280 --> 0:30:28.560
<v Speaker 1>who was running the investigation to start with, he told

0:30:29.080 --> 0:30:32.400
<v Speaker 1>told in the hand up that the family have been eliminated.

0:30:33.160 --> 0:30:35.880
<v Speaker 1>When I was running the investigation, I had another look

0:30:35.920 --> 0:30:38.320
<v Speaker 1>at the family. There was a member of the strikeforce

0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:42.400
<v Speaker 1>that wanted to explore some aspects of it very vigorously.

0:30:42.560 --> 0:30:44.960
<v Speaker 1>Had a look at the family again overt and covert

0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:51.600
<v Speaker 1>investigative techniques. I came away from that very confident that

0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:55.480
<v Speaker 1>the foster mother and foster father for that matter, had

0:30:55.520 --> 0:31:00.280
<v Speaker 1>no knowledge or involvement in William's disappearance. The foster mother

0:31:00.360 --> 0:31:04.640
<v Speaker 1>gave evidence in support of me at my hearing and

0:31:04.800 --> 0:31:08.600
<v Speaker 1>was also critical of senior police, and these are just

0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.720
<v Speaker 1>the facts and the timing of it. Then she becomes

0:31:11.760 --> 0:31:15.760
<v Speaker 1>a person of interest after she's criticized senior Police, and

0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:18.440
<v Speaker 1>that's been leaked to the media, and it's been leaked

0:31:18.440 --> 0:31:20.840
<v Speaker 1>to the media. The brief of evidence was sent to

0:31:20.920 --> 0:31:25.000
<v Speaker 1>the DPP. I think that was eighteen months ago. There's

0:31:25.000 --> 0:31:29.240
<v Speaker 1>no decision that's come back. Something about this just does

0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:33.880
<v Speaker 1>not feel right. And I am still passionate about the

0:31:34.160 --> 0:31:36.960
<v Speaker 1>William Tyrel matter. I can't let it go. I won't

0:31:37.040 --> 0:31:40.040
<v Speaker 1>let it go. And it's not me losing perspective and

0:31:40.080 --> 0:31:43.160
<v Speaker 1>it's not me trying to justify my position. I think we,

0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:46.680
<v Speaker 1>and I'm still including myself as a police officer in

0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:50.560
<v Speaker 1>this term, should be judged on the way that investigation

0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:54.000
<v Speaker 1>has been handled. And I don't know how the public

0:31:54.000 --> 0:31:57.120
<v Speaker 1>could possibly have confidence in what's going on. There seems

0:31:57.160 --> 0:32:00.240
<v Speaker 1>to be there was a cranial in question. When we

0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:02.680
<v Speaker 1>we've heard for eighteen months and we've heard the Commissioner

0:32:02.720 --> 0:32:06.440
<v Speaker 1>of Police saying there's only one suspect pointing the finger

0:32:06.440 --> 0:32:10.840
<v Speaker 1>at the foster mother and there's no evidence to support that.

0:32:10.880 --> 0:32:15.000
<v Speaker 1>You can't make allegations allegations like that. I've been criticized

0:32:15.000 --> 0:32:18.840
<v Speaker 1>about things in the William Teral matter, and I'm caught

0:32:18.880 --> 0:32:22.800
<v Speaker 1>up in the internal conflict, which is disappointing. So I'm

0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:26.000
<v Speaker 1>not stepping away saying I'm innocent, but I'd just like

0:32:26.200 --> 0:32:28.880
<v Speaker 1>the full facts to come out, and I know with

0:32:29.040 --> 0:32:33.440
<v Speaker 1>the witness William Yrrell podcast, I know the effort that

0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:36.680
<v Speaker 1>Dan's put into that, and I'm hoping that gives a

0:32:36.680 --> 0:32:42.280
<v Speaker 1>public a clearer understanding of what is the information out there,

0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:45.040
<v Speaker 1>because I think they'd be shocked if they fully understood

0:32:45.400 --> 0:32:48.840
<v Speaker 1>what's going on with this investigation. So, in light of

0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:52.480
<v Speaker 1>my very lengthy answer, clearly I haven't haven't given up,

0:32:52.840 --> 0:32:56.640
<v Speaker 1>and the thing that we should all be hang on

0:32:56.720 --> 0:33:00.680
<v Speaker 1>to the fact a young child has disappeared. That shouldn't

0:33:00.680 --> 0:33:03.240
<v Speaker 1>get lost in all the politics and all the infighting

0:33:03.320 --> 0:33:05.440
<v Speaker 1>and all that we all should be working in the

0:33:05.480 --> 0:33:11.840
<v Speaker 1>same direction to bring some closure and that therein lies

0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:14.760
<v Speaker 1>my frustration. Have not even been able to do a handover, Like,

0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:18.040
<v Speaker 1>how can you take someone off an investigation working on

0:33:18.160 --> 0:33:20.520
<v Speaker 1>for four years without a handover? And it wasn't me

0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:24.680
<v Speaker 1>spitting the dummy saying no, I don't want to I'm

0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:26.560
<v Speaker 1>not going to speak to you because you've been horrible

0:33:26.560 --> 0:33:28.560
<v Speaker 1>to me. I'm saying I will help in any way

0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:31.560
<v Speaker 1>I can. I turned up at the inquest in my suit,

0:33:31.960 --> 0:33:34.520
<v Speaker 1>ready to give evidence. How can you have an inquest

0:33:34.560 --> 0:33:39.040
<v Speaker 1>without hands Rup hasn't been called as a witness. He

0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:42.200
<v Speaker 1>ran the investigation for five months. I haven't been called

0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:44.880
<v Speaker 1>as a witness. I ran the investigation for four years.

0:33:45.400 --> 0:33:48.560
<v Speaker 1>And Dave Laidlaw, who's run the investigation for six years,

0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:52.400
<v Speaker 1>hasn't been called as a witness. I haven't seen anything

0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:53.000
<v Speaker 1>like it.

0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:56.120
<v Speaker 2>It's so frustrating. I can only imagine the frustration for

0:33:56.200 --> 0:34:01.760
<v Speaker 2>you and for everyone in William's life life. Because time

0:34:01.800 --> 0:34:07.480
<v Speaker 2>also we know if anything, even going back to armchair detectives,

0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:10.279
<v Speaker 2>we know that when time is of the essence, when

0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:13.960
<v Speaker 2>time gets squandered on these sort of petty politics or

0:34:14.000 --> 0:34:18.000
<v Speaker 2>maybe red herrings, we've seen this even in fairly recent cases.

0:34:18.120 --> 0:34:20.680
<v Speaker 2>I would argue that Maddie McCann case was a case

0:34:20.719 --> 0:34:22.799
<v Speaker 2>in point. You don't get that time back.

0:34:23.200 --> 0:34:25.360
<v Speaker 1>You don't get that time back, and the focus should

0:34:25.400 --> 0:34:29.799
<v Speaker 1>be on finding out finding out what happened. And in

0:34:29.920 --> 0:34:34.560
<v Speaker 1>saying this, if there is an inquiry, if I have

0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:39.239
<v Speaker 1>not done something right or whatever, I'm happy for the

0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:41.480
<v Speaker 1>criticism because we've got to improve. We've got to be

0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:43.440
<v Speaker 1>judged by that. So I think we all should go

0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:46.600
<v Speaker 1>to the table with that form of can we have

0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:49.319
<v Speaker 1>done this better? Should have we done this better? And

0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:52.719
<v Speaker 1>it's just sad all around that it breaks my heart

0:34:52.760 --> 0:34:55.920
<v Speaker 1>and the impact it's had on the foster parents. And

0:34:56.320 --> 0:34:59.080
<v Speaker 1>I say this, the people that have pointed the finger

0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:03.200
<v Speaker 1>at the foster mother if they find if they found

0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:07.080
<v Speaker 1>out that that's not not correct, I don't know how

0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:09.440
<v Speaker 1>they can sleep at night with themselves because they have

0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:14.360
<v Speaker 1>destroyed a person's life. And yeah, and I've been criticized

0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:17.040
<v Speaker 1>of it, there was criticism of things I did. I

0:35:17.400 --> 0:35:20.279
<v Speaker 1>still stand by what I did. The courts have criticized me.

0:35:20.320 --> 0:35:23.279
<v Speaker 1>I've got to accept the accept the findings of the court.

0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:26.359
<v Speaker 1>But I also believe the courts are only as good

0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:29.120
<v Speaker 1>as the information that's been provided to them. So there's

0:35:29.160 --> 0:35:32.279
<v Speaker 1>so much damage, so many lives have been impacted upon,

0:35:32.920 --> 0:35:36.080
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, we've got to got to find finances. But

0:35:36.400 --> 0:35:40.880
<v Speaker 1>coming back to Willims disappeared and then the lives that

0:35:40.880 --> 0:35:44.279
<v Speaker 1>have been destroyed around will and whether it's a biological

0:35:44.520 --> 0:35:48.880
<v Speaker 1>family or the foster foster family, but it's just to me,

0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:50.879
<v Speaker 1>it seems like an ongoing nightmare for them.

0:35:51.040 --> 0:35:53.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that ripple effect, we talked about it, it's most

0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:59.240
<v Speaker 2>absolute heartbreaking and devastating. Gary, big big segue here, big

0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:05.120
<v Speaker 2>gears change. Coming into final few questions, workplace stress. I

0:36:05.120 --> 0:36:07.799
<v Speaker 2>imagine everything that we've just talked about you would have

0:36:07.840 --> 0:36:12.400
<v Speaker 2>had experience of workplace stress in a very unique and

0:36:12.680 --> 0:36:16.480
<v Speaker 2>acute way. Which brings me to what I teased at

0:36:16.480 --> 0:36:21.040
<v Speaker 2>the start of our conversation about your long term interest

0:36:21.080 --> 0:36:24.600
<v Speaker 2>in what we now call wellness and wellbeing real buzzwords

0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:27.560
<v Speaker 2>of the last few years. And I mean that in

0:36:27.600 --> 0:36:30.560
<v Speaker 2>a good way actually, So as I say it's a

0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:34.600
<v Speaker 2>little bit unexpected, some people might think that Gary Jubilan

0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:36.719
<v Speaker 2>is you know, I've brought him on to talk a

0:36:36.760 --> 0:36:39.240
<v Speaker 2>little bit about wellness among other things. But your producer

0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Emily told us that you've been meditating for decades. Now,

0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:44.640
<v Speaker 2>When did that start?

0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:51.680
<v Speaker 1>It started in my twenties, early twenties. I was very

0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:54.080
<v Speaker 1>much in the fitness when I joined the police. A

0:36:54.160 --> 0:36:57.799
<v Speaker 1>lot before that, I was active, active as a kid,

0:36:57.880 --> 0:37:02.920
<v Speaker 1>teenager and playing playing sport. But then I got into training,

0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:07.120
<v Speaker 1>got into martial arts, super fit. But I would get sick.

0:37:07.160 --> 0:37:09.680
<v Speaker 1>If I walked past someone with a cold, I'd get

0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:13.000
<v Speaker 1>I'd get sick, and so I spake. I was training

0:37:13.040 --> 0:37:14.880
<v Speaker 1>in kung fu and kickboxing, and I spoke to a

0:37:14.880 --> 0:37:18.759
<v Speaker 1>sifu and some of the instructors and said, you're concentrating

0:37:18.800 --> 0:37:21.000
<v Speaker 1>too much on the hard training. You need to do

0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:25.560
<v Speaker 1>some soft training. So hard training being the hard physical sweating, exhaustion,

0:37:26.120 --> 0:37:29.440
<v Speaker 1>soft training being the meditation. Chigong was a practice I

0:37:29.480 --> 0:37:32.319
<v Speaker 1>first got into, which is like I think tai chi,

0:37:32.400 --> 0:37:36.520
<v Speaker 1>it's like a moving form of meditation. Because I could

0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:39.120
<v Speaker 1>see them doing things physically that I couldn't, I'm thinking,

0:37:39.160 --> 0:37:40.760
<v Speaker 1>I want a piece of it. I want a piece

0:37:40.760 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 1>of that. So I got into got into chigung fairly early.

0:37:45.080 --> 0:37:49.440
<v Speaker 1>And I got to say, in chigong meditation yoga, you

0:37:49.480 --> 0:37:54.520
<v Speaker 1>can imagine the classes back back then. And I'd walk

0:37:54.600 --> 0:37:56.880
<v Speaker 1>in and what do you do I'm a cop, and

0:37:56.920 --> 0:38:00.720
<v Speaker 1>everyone just look at me and go, this is weird police.

0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:04.680
<v Speaker 1>Within the police, I would I would talk about, yeah,

0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:08.000
<v Speaker 1>talk about yeah, I was boxing, I was kick boxing,

0:38:08.080 --> 0:38:10.880
<v Speaker 1>doing kung fur. But I also do this meditation and

0:38:11.000 --> 0:38:14.440
<v Speaker 1>we'd go away a lot in homicide, so yeah, people

0:38:14.440 --> 0:38:16.439
<v Speaker 1>that I work with sometimes would be sharing the room

0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:20.279
<v Speaker 1>and go, what the fuck are you doing if I

0:38:18.840 --> 0:38:25.120
<v Speaker 1>was sitting there cross legged or meditating. But I found that,

0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:29.000
<v Speaker 1>I found it. Really it's really beneficial for me. And

0:38:29.040 --> 0:38:32.239
<v Speaker 1>I've continued the practice all through my life. And it

0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:35.919
<v Speaker 1>really I was fortunate enough. And I say fortunate enough

0:38:35.920 --> 0:38:39.200
<v Speaker 1>because I think I was lucky in regards or just

0:38:39.840 --> 0:38:42.960
<v Speaker 1>something that kept me on track. I didn't have time

0:38:43.040 --> 0:38:45.080
<v Speaker 1>off in the thirty four years I was in the police.

0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:49.600
<v Speaker 1>I always I could always maintaintain my health and the

0:38:49.640 --> 0:38:53.640
<v Speaker 1>stresses that you get from work, Like sometimes in homicide,

0:38:53.640 --> 0:38:55.479
<v Speaker 1>I want to come out, I just want to jump

0:38:55.480 --> 0:38:57.400
<v Speaker 1>in a boxing ring and get kicking, kicked in the

0:38:57.440 --> 0:39:00.520
<v Speaker 1>head or punched in the head, and that settles me

0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:02.880
<v Speaker 1>down because you're only focusing on that, you're not stressed

0:39:02.880 --> 0:39:06.960
<v Speaker 1>about that. But other times you come home really hardwired.

0:39:07.000 --> 0:39:08.920
<v Speaker 1>You've been on a job that you might be up

0:39:08.920 --> 0:39:11.960
<v Speaker 1>for forty eight hours, you're barking out orders or things

0:39:12.000 --> 0:39:15.120
<v Speaker 1>are happening, You're making big decisions, and I realized that

0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:18.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm now the step with the rest of the world basically,

0:39:19.040 --> 0:39:23.520
<v Speaker 1>And what Chigool, meditation and yoga gave me is it

0:39:23.520 --> 0:39:25.080
<v Speaker 1>it was sort of something I can keep in my

0:39:25.160 --> 0:39:28.399
<v Speaker 1>back pocket that I could use whenever I knew where

0:39:28.440 --> 0:39:31.600
<v Speaker 1>I felt. I had to bring myself down, so I practice.

0:39:31.840 --> 0:39:35.799
<v Speaker 1>I got to one point where it became because I

0:39:35.840 --> 0:39:38.640
<v Speaker 1>get addicted to something, so it became I've got to

0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:43.480
<v Speaker 1>meditate in the night in the morning, and that became stressful, stupid.

0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:47.680
<v Speaker 1>It's all about feeling better. So I've done the practice

0:39:47.680 --> 0:39:49.680
<v Speaker 1>long enough to know I know when I need it.

0:39:49.719 --> 0:39:53.320
<v Speaker 1>And what I explained to people with meditation, some people

0:39:53.360 --> 0:39:56.840
<v Speaker 1>think you can just I can drag someone off the

0:39:56.880 --> 0:39:59.399
<v Speaker 1>street that's never meditated before and they can sit there

0:39:59.440 --> 0:40:02.080
<v Speaker 1>and just meditate. It's like me dragging you off the

0:40:02.080 --> 0:40:04.359
<v Speaker 1>street and telling you to run a marathon. You need

0:40:04.400 --> 0:40:07.440
<v Speaker 1>to practice and develop those skills. I've got those skills

0:40:07.480 --> 0:40:09.719
<v Speaker 1>and I can use it so I could maybe I

0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:12.640
<v Speaker 1>have a stressful interview here, I could walk out, go home,

0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:15.520
<v Speaker 1>and just calm my mind in ten to fifteen minutes

0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:20.680
<v Speaker 1>through meditation and movement. So I've had some interesting experiences

0:40:20.760 --> 0:40:25.160
<v Speaker 1>with it, like I've gone to yoga retreats through Indonesia

0:40:25.239 --> 0:40:29.239
<v Speaker 1>and over in Nepal and different different things like that,

0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:31.560
<v Speaker 1>and it's opened my mind up to a lot of

0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:34.239
<v Speaker 1>things and it takes me very much out of my

0:40:34.320 --> 0:40:38.400
<v Speaker 1>comfort zone and it's worked for me. Post Traumatic stress

0:40:38.520 --> 0:40:40.880
<v Speaker 1>is a big, big ticket item. A lot of people

0:40:40.920 --> 0:40:45.200
<v Speaker 1>talk about post traumatic stress. When I left the police

0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:48.480
<v Speaker 1>people and they weren't. They were trying to do the

0:40:48.560 --> 0:40:51.200
<v Speaker 1>right thing by me. They're going, Gary, you've been doing

0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:54.280
<v Speaker 1>homicide for twenty years, you're stress, You're running all these jobs.

0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:57.799
<v Speaker 1>You know, go off sick and I've gone. But I'm

0:40:58.000 --> 0:41:01.399
<v Speaker 1>not sick. I am not not sick, but you could

0:41:01.400 --> 0:41:04.080
<v Speaker 1>be because of this and that. What I think has

0:41:04.120 --> 0:41:07.279
<v Speaker 1>helped me all the way through through my career is

0:41:07.280 --> 0:41:09.879
<v Speaker 1>the soft training, the hard training. But I do train.

0:41:10.000 --> 0:41:14.279
<v Speaker 1>I train every day. If I don't train, I'm out

0:41:14.320 --> 0:41:15.920
<v Speaker 1>of whack. I was going to say I'm not a

0:41:15.920 --> 0:41:18.440
<v Speaker 1>good person, which is probably true, but I just feel

0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:20.680
<v Speaker 1>out of whack. So I make a habit of it.

0:41:21.200 --> 0:41:24.240
<v Speaker 1>And when I'm at my most stressed. If I train

0:41:24.440 --> 0:41:28.120
<v Speaker 1>and get myself into pointed in the right direction, it's

0:41:28.120 --> 0:41:30.839
<v Speaker 1>so beneficial. So when I go through and we all

0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:33.799
<v Speaker 1>go through stresses in life, that's and you know, on

0:41:34.200 --> 0:41:36.399
<v Speaker 1>the podcast, I get to see people who have gone

0:41:36.440 --> 0:41:41.520
<v Speaker 1>through the most enormous stress situations. But I feel like

0:41:41.560 --> 0:41:44.120
<v Speaker 1>I've got an advantage on people because I know what

0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:46.680
<v Speaker 1>to do to bring myself self down and it's helped

0:41:46.719 --> 0:41:51.080
<v Speaker 1>me time and time again. Certainly, when my police career

0:41:51.160 --> 0:41:54.200
<v Speaker 1>came to an end, I didn't have employment straight away.

0:41:55.200 --> 0:41:58.160
<v Speaker 1>I was used to talking to one hundred people a day.

0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:00.759
<v Speaker 1>That was basically cut off. I allowed to talk to

0:42:00.800 --> 0:42:05.480
<v Speaker 1>any police basically sitting at home and I was struggling.

0:42:05.719 --> 0:42:08.239
<v Speaker 1>But then after the wake up call where I sort

0:42:08.239 --> 0:42:10.680
<v Speaker 1>of slapped myself across the face, get up and train,

0:42:10.840 --> 0:42:13.600
<v Speaker 1>And so I just trained harder and harder and got

0:42:13.640 --> 0:42:16.360
<v Speaker 1>myself fit and ready to take on the world again.

0:42:16.640 --> 0:42:19.040
<v Speaker 1>I would do that in the cops as well. Sometimes

0:42:19.080 --> 0:42:21.160
<v Speaker 1>if I knew a big job was coming up, I

0:42:21.200 --> 0:42:24.360
<v Speaker 1>would be training really hard in knowing I need to

0:42:24.400 --> 0:42:28.200
<v Speaker 1>be sharp, I need to be ready, and healthy mind.

0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:32.160
<v Speaker 1>Healthy body leads to a healthy mind. I honestly believe,

0:42:32.160 --> 0:42:36.080
<v Speaker 1>because I couldn't understand with the siffers that I trained under,

0:42:36.160 --> 0:42:40.040
<v Speaker 1>all the different masters I trained under, I've gone a

0:42:40.160 --> 0:42:43.239
<v Speaker 1>sort of counterintuitive We're beating the crap out of each

0:42:43.280 --> 0:42:46.400
<v Speaker 1>other here, and then we're sitting there not singing Kumbai Aar,

0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:50.520
<v Speaker 1>but sitting there chanting or whatever. And it was described

0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:52.640
<v Speaker 1>to me, and I think this is a simple way

0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:57.239
<v Speaker 1>of describing it is that if you've got if you're

0:42:57.239 --> 0:43:00.160
<v Speaker 1>not physical just the way you carry yourself, your shoulders,

0:43:00.680 --> 0:43:05.120
<v Speaker 1>you've got your blinkers on, so physically you're not walking

0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:09.359
<v Speaker 1>carrying yourself properly, that leads to your mental outlook. And

0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:11.600
<v Speaker 1>it made sense to me, like when I feel like

0:43:11.880 --> 0:43:15.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm fit and things are going well, I'm up, I'm

0:43:15.040 --> 0:43:18.680
<v Speaker 1>looking and my mind's open open to things. When I'm

0:43:18.719 --> 0:43:21.600
<v Speaker 1>not feeling the best, it's sort of my mind narrows down.

0:43:21.680 --> 0:43:24.440
<v Speaker 1>So I saw the balance there. But I've had some

0:43:24.560 --> 0:43:30.080
<v Speaker 1>interesting experiences, like I was doing going through a particularly

0:43:30.120 --> 0:43:34.360
<v Speaker 1>busy period at that homicide that was what the Underbelly

0:43:35.400 --> 0:43:38.600
<v Speaker 1>series was based on, and that was a couple of

0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:43.759
<v Speaker 1>years of chaos. And I went to a place in Chinatown,

0:43:44.040 --> 0:43:46.719
<v Speaker 1>choy Lee Foot and did chigong there and there's this

0:43:46.800 --> 0:43:50.600
<v Speaker 1>old Chinese master there and didn't speak a lot of English,

0:43:50.680 --> 0:43:53.600
<v Speaker 1>but I would walk into the chigung class and it

0:43:53.640 --> 0:43:55.520
<v Speaker 1>was a classic. It felt like you're in the back

0:43:55.560 --> 0:43:58.320
<v Speaker 1>streets of Hong Kong. You walk up behind the restaurant,

0:43:58.400 --> 0:44:00.759
<v Speaker 1>up the stairs and you go into the class and

0:44:00.880 --> 0:44:03.319
<v Speaker 1>he'd look at me and go, you took cranky, mister

0:44:03.360 --> 0:44:08.839
<v Speaker 1>policeman and slapped me on the face like that type

0:44:08.880 --> 0:44:10.799
<v Speaker 1>of thing. And then you're sitting there and you just

0:44:10.840 --> 0:44:14.120
<v Speaker 1>can't calm down. And it was so beneficial to me.

0:44:14.239 --> 0:44:19.360
<v Speaker 1>So and I am mindful of people that suffer post

0:44:19.360 --> 0:44:22.320
<v Speaker 1>traumatic stress, and I got a bit of an understanding

0:44:22.360 --> 0:44:24.600
<v Speaker 1>about it because it's great that you can learn from

0:44:24.640 --> 0:44:28.080
<v Speaker 1>your kids. My son is in the army and a

0:44:28.080 --> 0:44:31.239
<v Speaker 1>part of the he's also psychologist and part of his

0:44:31.400 --> 0:44:34.839
<v Speaker 1>PhD is post traumatic stress for the military. And I

0:44:34.880 --> 0:44:38.080
<v Speaker 1>often talk to him and he's early and his career

0:44:38.160 --> 0:44:40.800
<v Speaker 1>is starting out, but talk about the benefits of training,

0:44:40.880 --> 0:44:46.640
<v Speaker 1>and he sees that that's so so important. And everyone

0:44:46.719 --> 0:44:50.160
<v Speaker 1>that I see that's suffering from post traumatic stress and

0:44:50.200 --> 0:44:53.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm probably sympathying it too much, but you get a

0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:55.720
<v Speaker 1>sense of achievement if you get up in the morning

0:44:55.960 --> 0:45:01.200
<v Speaker 1>and do something. I train every morning Johnny Lewis, this

0:45:01.320 --> 0:45:05.600
<v Speaker 1>is the boxing trainer. This is something that's beneficial from

0:45:05.640 --> 0:45:08.640
<v Speaker 1>the cops because the ovil is just near my place

0:45:08.680 --> 0:45:10.719
<v Speaker 1>where a train, So every morning five point thirty I

0:45:10.760 --> 0:45:15.400
<v Speaker 1>trained with him. I also think good health and mental

0:45:15.440 --> 0:45:19.400
<v Speaker 1>well being comes from being around having a tribe. And

0:45:19.880 --> 0:45:22.719
<v Speaker 1>I lost my tribe when I was cut off from

0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:25.480
<v Speaker 1>the police. That was my tribe. That was I'm a policeman.

0:45:26.120 --> 0:45:28.600
<v Speaker 1>You've been kicked out of your tribe. But with this

0:45:28.640 --> 0:45:32.640
<v Speaker 1>group earned a bunch of sort of all sorts that

0:45:33.080 --> 0:45:35.759
<v Speaker 1>turn up for boxing, so a whole cross section of community,

0:45:36.000 --> 0:45:38.040
<v Speaker 1>but there's a community feel. We have a bit of

0:45:38.040 --> 0:45:40.840
<v Speaker 1>a laugh, bit of a chat and talk and then

0:45:40.960 --> 0:45:43.400
<v Speaker 1>do the training and you walk away feeling good. So

0:45:44.080 --> 0:45:47.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm also mindful of the need to have that social outlook.

0:45:48.520 --> 0:45:51.080
<v Speaker 1>During COVID, which I hate to mention because I think

0:45:51.080 --> 0:45:54.359
<v Speaker 1>it was handled just appallingly. Never once did I hear

0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:56.440
<v Speaker 1>anyone talk about how about we all just try and

0:45:56.480 --> 0:45:58.680
<v Speaker 1>get a little bit fitter and get out and exercise.

0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:02.000
<v Speaker 1>During that I was living on my own and there

0:46:02.080 --> 0:46:06.120
<v Speaker 1>was times during those lockdowns basically six Yeah, what was

0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:08.799
<v Speaker 1>the longest one? Three months or whatever on your own.

0:46:08.920 --> 0:46:12.680
<v Speaker 1>And I'd get up in the morning and I say,

0:46:12.760 --> 0:46:16.359
<v Speaker 1>start talking to myself. I knew, yeah, I'm joking here,

0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:20.000
<v Speaker 1>But morning Gary, Morning Gary, what are we up to today? Gary?

0:46:20.040 --> 0:46:23.359
<v Speaker 1>Don't they Gary? Like I realized I was boring at

0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:25.759
<v Speaker 1>that point in time too, But as I could chat

0:46:25.800 --> 0:46:29.919
<v Speaker 1>to me, but that I would just I would train.

0:46:30.040 --> 0:46:33.640
<v Speaker 1>That was my thing, my salvation, and exhaust yourself physically,

0:46:33.680 --> 0:46:36.440
<v Speaker 1>then you can concentrate on what else you have to

0:46:36.520 --> 0:46:37.160
<v Speaker 1>do for the day.

0:46:37.600 --> 0:46:40.160
<v Speaker 2>And you mentioned having this in your back pocket. I

0:46:40.160 --> 0:46:42.760
<v Speaker 2>mean these skills part of your toolkit, as you say,

0:46:43.200 --> 0:46:46.480
<v Speaker 2>whatever life throws at any of us, knowing that you've

0:46:46.480 --> 0:46:51.880
<v Speaker 2>got some strategies in place is so critical to getting

0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:54.160
<v Speaker 2>out of bed each day. So I guess my final

0:46:54.239 --> 0:46:57.080
<v Speaker 2>question then, Gary, you had a little bit of a

0:46:57.160 --> 0:47:02.520
<v Speaker 2>hack there that don't if you can't free your mind,

0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:06.240
<v Speaker 2>if you're not the word meditation, you know, strike sphere.

0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:07.759
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, I've got too much going on in my

0:47:07.800 --> 0:47:09.759
<v Speaker 2>head yoga? What is that I can't do any of

0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:13.440
<v Speaker 2>these things you said? It's not like you can't just

0:47:13.480 --> 0:47:16.160
<v Speaker 2>go in and do it any more than you would

0:47:16.160 --> 0:47:19.239
<v Speaker 2>do a half marathon. So what would some hacks be

0:47:19.320 --> 0:47:21.680
<v Speaker 2>for anyone listening that doesn't have this as part of

0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:22.080
<v Speaker 2>their tool.

0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:24.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I think it's a skill that's an acquired skill

0:47:24.800 --> 0:47:26.839
<v Speaker 1>that you need to build up. The other thing that

0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:30.319
<v Speaker 1>I see a lot of people fall by the wayside

0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:34.680
<v Speaker 1>is they don't buy into moderation. In that I see

0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:36.799
<v Speaker 1>some people that are clearly unfit and they'll come up

0:47:36.800 --> 0:47:39.040
<v Speaker 1>to me and go And this would happen during the

0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:41.320
<v Speaker 1>Cops because I'd train each day when I was in

0:47:41.640 --> 0:47:44.359
<v Speaker 1>the police at lunch time and they are I'm going

0:47:44.400 --> 0:47:46.840
<v Speaker 1>to get fit. I'm going to train and I'm thinking

0:47:46.840 --> 0:47:49.960
<v Speaker 1>we'll just work up a sweat just you don't have

0:47:50.040 --> 0:47:53.959
<v Speaker 1>to set the world on fire. But they come in inspired. Well,

0:47:54.600 --> 0:47:57.520
<v Speaker 1>New Year's resolution is, I'm sure we've all done. I'm

0:47:57.560 --> 0:48:00.520
<v Speaker 1>going to get fit this year. Just build up in mentally,

0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:04.160
<v Speaker 1>don't take on the world. And the same with meditation.

0:48:04.680 --> 0:48:06.600
<v Speaker 1>You will get in there and the first time you're

0:48:06.600 --> 0:48:08.479
<v Speaker 1>in there, you'll be looking around going what the hell

0:48:08.640 --> 0:48:13.879
<v Speaker 1>is going on going on here? But gradually, gradually you learn.

0:48:13.960 --> 0:48:17.480
<v Speaker 1>And I talked to Goong. I also studied with a

0:48:17.600 --> 0:48:19.560
<v Speaker 1>CIFU over in Perth. I was spent a lot of

0:48:19.640 --> 0:48:23.000
<v Speaker 1>time living over in Perth at one stage, and such

0:48:23.040 --> 0:48:26.400
<v Speaker 1>a science. So the more I learned, the more I

0:48:26.440 --> 0:48:28.839
<v Speaker 1>realized I didn't know. So I take a little bit

0:48:28.840 --> 0:48:31.359
<v Speaker 1>away from everyone and what works for me. So I've

0:48:31.360 --> 0:48:34.080
<v Speaker 1>got a practice that works for me. So I just

0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:37.680
<v Speaker 1>tell people one step at the time. Don't think it's

0:48:37.719 --> 0:48:42.440
<v Speaker 1>going to be the fix everything, but it's something that

0:48:42.480 --> 0:48:45.319
<v Speaker 1>you can add. And what I describe because people go, well,

0:48:45.360 --> 0:48:47.560
<v Speaker 1>what happens when you meditate? What happens when you can

0:48:47.640 --> 0:48:50.239
<v Speaker 1>let yourself go? I liken it to this, and I

0:48:50.239 --> 0:48:52.799
<v Speaker 1>think we've all been in this position. You're lying on

0:48:52.840 --> 0:48:55.160
<v Speaker 1>the lounge on the say a Sunday afternoon, you're just

0:48:55.200 --> 0:48:58.200
<v Speaker 1>starting to fall asleep, and you know that really relaxed

0:48:58.440 --> 0:49:01.560
<v Speaker 1>moment that you've had a big no or whatever, really

0:49:01.600 --> 0:49:05.880
<v Speaker 1>relaxed moment and you're just drifting off. That's what I

0:49:05.920 --> 0:49:09.360
<v Speaker 1>find that I achieve with meditation. I'm holding that moment

0:49:09.440 --> 0:49:13.040
<v Speaker 1>and it's like watching the river. This is a good

0:49:13.040 --> 0:49:15.080
<v Speaker 1>way of describing it, because you've got your thoughts going

0:49:15.120 --> 0:49:18.640
<v Speaker 1>in your head, watching the river with things flowing down

0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:21.640
<v Speaker 1>me your thoughts. Just let them pass, just let them

0:49:21.920 --> 0:49:24.320
<v Speaker 1>go through. Just let them drift through your mind, because

0:49:24.480 --> 0:49:26.520
<v Speaker 1>we could be sitting here meditating and there could be

0:49:26.560 --> 0:49:29.520
<v Speaker 1>a car dipping the horn, because sometimes that's the environment

0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:33.479
<v Speaker 1>you're meditating in. Just let it drift through. And these

0:49:34.040 --> 0:49:36.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm by no means an expert, but I've learnt by

0:49:36.719 --> 0:49:38.680
<v Speaker 1>experts and these are the sort of things that I've

0:49:38.719 --> 0:49:41.600
<v Speaker 1>taken away and it does work. I love that.

0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:44.279
<v Speaker 2>I love that idea of things drifting by us in

0:49:44.320 --> 0:49:44.680
<v Speaker 2>the river.

0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:46.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to try that, try it, and you're just

0:49:47.320 --> 0:49:49.560
<v Speaker 1>you're watching the river, which is a peaceful thing, and

0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:52.160
<v Speaker 1>you just things drift through. You don't hold that thought,

0:49:52.320 --> 0:49:54.319
<v Speaker 1>you just let that pass pass through.

0:49:55.080 --> 0:49:58.560
<v Speaker 2>Gary, it has been so fascinating talking to you today.

0:49:58.760 --> 0:50:01.280
<v Speaker 2>I've gone way over time. I'm that I've already failed

0:50:01.280 --> 0:50:03.799
<v Speaker 2>on my first New Years resolution, which was, you know,

0:50:03.920 --> 0:50:06.239
<v Speaker 2>to try to keep conversations a bit short.

0:50:06.560 --> 0:50:08.120
<v Speaker 1>You weren't listening the moderation work.

0:50:08.560 --> 0:50:11.120
<v Speaker 2>I should I should have had somebody, you know, duller

0:50:11.200 --> 0:50:14.560
<v Speaker 2>on because this has been too interesting. But you, of

0:50:14.600 --> 0:50:17.080
<v Speaker 2>course can hear more from Gary on his podcast I

0:50:17.160 --> 0:50:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Catch Killers. We'll link to that in the show notes.

0:50:20.040 --> 0:50:23.320
<v Speaker 2>Gary Jubilin, thank you so much for your time today

0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:26.240
<v Speaker 2>and wish you all the best for a very happy

0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:27.080
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty five.

0:50:27.200 --> 0:50:29.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, thanks very much and thanks for having me on.

0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:31.040
<v Speaker 1>Then let's have a great year.

0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:34.880
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, if you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you're following

0:50:34.960 --> 0:50:37.640
<v Speaker 2>us because we'll be back with another exclusive guest on

0:50:37.680 --> 0:50:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Something to Talk About next week