Speaker 1: Hi, guys, here's a special bonus episode for you. I
Speaker 1: recently went on a podcast called Something to Talk About
Speaker 1: with the host Sarah. We talked about all sorts of
Speaker 1: things that have occurred in my life, how I got
Speaker 1: through my police career relatively unscathed, and what I do
Speaker 1: is stay sane in the world that I operated for
Speaker 1: a long time, and also my post policing career, and
Speaker 1: a lot of other things I didn't expect to be
Speaker 1: talking about, but it was a bit of fun. I
Speaker 1: hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Something to Talk About the Stella podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Sarah Lamarquin, to your host, and every week I
Speaker 2: sit down with some of the biggest names in the
Speaker 2: country because when Australia's celebrities are ready to talk, they
Speaker 2: come to Something to talk about. Now, when you think
Speaker 2: of mindfulness and wellness, the name Gary Jubilan might not
Speaker 2: immediately spring to mind. Gary, of course, specialized in the
Speaker 2: field of homicide for twenty five years, rising to the
Speaker 2: rank of Detective Chief Inspector until the time of his
Speaker 2: retirement from the force in twenty nineteen, a mid a
Speaker 2: blaze of headlines. Since leaving, he's built another very successful career,
Speaker 2: this time in the media as the author of two
Speaker 2: best selling books and of course as host of one
Speaker 2: of Australia's most successful podcasts, Eye Catch Killers. But here's
Speaker 2: something you probably don't know about Gary. He's a big
Speaker 2: fan of meditation. He's also really into yoga and he
Speaker 2: believes that if you have a calm mind, it will
Speaker 2: make everything better. Not perfect, but definitely better. Given it's
Speaker 2: a time of year when many of us are thinking
Speaker 2: about ways to improve our wellbeing and making all sorts
Speaker 2: of New Year's health resolutions. On today's episode is something
Speaker 2: to talk about. Gary joins me to discuss the importance
Speaker 2: of mindfulness and physical and mental wellness. Gary Jubilan, Welcome
Speaker 2: to the Stellar podcast.
Speaker 1: Oh thanks very much for having me.
Speaker 2: Lovely to have you in the studio. It is January.
Speaker 2: You and I both know it's a time of year
Speaker 2: where people are starting to think this is the year
Speaker 2: where I'm going to overhaul my life and make all
Speaker 2: the health resolutions. So it might surprise a few people
Speaker 2: that I thought now might be the perfect time to
Speaker 2: have you on the podcast. Have wanted to chat to
Speaker 2: you for a long time because you've actually had quite
Speaker 2: an interest in wellness for a long time. But before
Speaker 2: we get to that, we might talk a little bit
Speaker 2: about your day job, okay, And I'd like to chat
Speaker 2: to you a little bit about what a sense you
Speaker 2: have with the demographic of that audience. I mean, there's
Speaker 2: also a huge female following and the interest among women
Speaker 2: in some of the content in podcasts like yours, and
Speaker 2: the crime genre is always seem so counterintuitive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not the type of people you think. It
Speaker 1: might be a group of blokes listening to the next
Speaker 1: cop talking to people about how bad guys were caught.
Speaker 1: But what and I'm proud of this with the podcast, Well,
Speaker 1: it's a volve too because I always thought when I
Speaker 1: had to do a true crime podcast, I wanted to
Speaker 1: give the listener a sense of what crime is all about. Now,
Speaker 1: crime to me in the years as a homicide detective
Speaker 1: and as a police officer, it's not one dimensional, like,
Speaker 1: it's not black and white. There's a gray area. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of pain, but there's some really beautiful moments
Speaker 1: to moments of redemption and forgiveness and all sorts of things.
Speaker 2: So with the.
Speaker 1: Podcast, that's what I've tried to tried to create wide
Speaker 1: range of guests that we have on and basically the
Speaker 1: benchmark for a guest is someone that I think would
Speaker 1: be interesting, that I want to sit down and chat with.
Speaker 1: And I think what the podcast is providing is people
Speaker 1: getting an insight into crime from all sides. So we're
Speaker 1: hearing not just from cops saying this is how we
Speaker 1: caught the bad guy. We're hearing from crooks and some
Speaker 1: notorious criminals. Criminals that I've had a few on that
Speaker 1: when they were working I were working, were confronted each other,
Speaker 1: there'd probably be guns drawn. Yeah, they were league, major
Speaker 1: league criminals, but I've learned that sometimes their upbringing is
Speaker 1: part of why they've gone into the line of work.
Speaker 1: They did also victims of crime. The emotion I pay
Speaker 1: homage to the victims of crime because I don't think
Speaker 1: people fully understand we see the headlines of someone being
Speaker 1: murdered doesn't just impact on one person. It's not just
Speaker 1: a victim, it's the families and it can go on
Speaker 1: for generations. It's also allowed me to push aspects of
Speaker 1: law and order where police haven't done the right thing,
Speaker 1: or the legislation is not right. I can actually get
Speaker 1: informed people on to talk about that and sort of
Speaker 1: open people's minds up on the different way of doing things.
Speaker 1: So it's sort of grown organically, but it's something that
Speaker 1: I really enjoy. And when I left the Cops and
Speaker 1: it was in controversial and dramatic circumstances, I had all
Speaker 1: this passion, I had all this energy, and I didn't
Speaker 1: know where the channel it. But I've found that I
Speaker 1: have been able to channel it through the podcast and
Speaker 1: actually making a difference. And quite frankly, I think I'm
Speaker 1: fortunate getting to speak to all these interesting people.
Speaker 2: And we're very fortunate to listen to the stories of
Speaker 2: all of these interesting people. And I love what you're
Speaker 2: talking about there, Gary. One of the many aspects of
Speaker 2: this work that you have found yourself throwing yourself into
Speaker 2: in such a big way the last five years is,
Speaker 2: as you say, talking to criminals and this idea of
Speaker 2: redemption or rehabilitation. Can I ask you about your own
Speaker 2: journey with that, because I would imagine coming through as
Speaker 2: a homicide detective, as you say, you're on the sort
Speaker 2: of other side, quote unquote, so to speak, while you're
Speaker 2: in the force, will youse somebody that always had a
Speaker 2: possible empathy or a curiosity about what had led to
Speaker 2: somebody to create a criminal act.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you say the word empathy, and if
Speaker 1: people ask me to describe what the good carteristic of
Speaker 1: a detective is empathy. And all the people that I
Speaker 1: looked up to, the homicide detectives, the ones that I
Speaker 1: really strive to work at the level, they work one
Speaker 1: common thing and it even comes out in the podcast
Speaker 1: they talk about empathy, and I think that's so important
Speaker 1: to understand. I think I've I've become a better person
Speaker 1: after what's happened to me in the police. When I
Speaker 1: was in the police, I had the empathy and that
Speaker 1: I very much victim focus. But in regards to the
Speaker 1: bad guys, I didn't have time to sort of reflect on, well,
Speaker 1: you might have had a tough upbringing. Basically, a case
Speaker 1: is allocated to you work the case, you solve it
Speaker 1: if you can, you put it before the courts, and
Speaker 1: then you move on to the next one. So I
Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of time to reflect on why
Speaker 1: this person is committing these type of offenses. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's so crucial in understanding crime and really
Speaker 1: in the fight against crime. I always thought I was
Speaker 1: making a big difference with powers of arrests, my handcuffs,
Speaker 1: my gum, and I'm a cop and making a difference
Speaker 1: in the world of crime. And I like to think
Speaker 1: I did with the stuff that I was doing, but
Speaker 1: I realized there's a lot of other people out there
Speaker 1: that work just as hard and probably have a bigger impact,
Speaker 1: and they're not cops. There. The people are helping people
Speaker 1: steer them in the right direction, that type of thing.
Speaker 1: And you also mentioned redemption, and I think redemption is
Speaker 1: such a beautiful thing. I love a story of redemption,
Speaker 1: like someone that's been at rock bottom and then finds
Speaker 1: their way out of it. I find it quite inspiring.
Speaker 2: And I think it's also I imagine Gary has so
Speaker 2: much impact that coming from you, because if a lot
Speaker 2: of people say myself, like a female journalist, if I
Speaker 2: was talking about redemption and rehabilitation, people might go, oh,
Speaker 2: here we go a bleeding heart. Although actually I did
Speaker 2: study law for a while because I wanted to be
Speaker 2: a criminal prosecutor. That was career plan B. Maybe I
Speaker 2: should have followed that little safer than media. But I digress.
Speaker 2: But as I say that, it is easy to sort
Speaker 2: of dismiss these conversations about redemption. As you know, bleeding heart,
Speaker 2: I'll get over it, but from you, it is unexpected.
Speaker 2: And I think also does really have such cut through
Speaker 2: given the work that you've done and what you've seen
Speaker 2: throughout the course of your career.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it helps. And someone Ken marslu his son was
Speaker 1: murdered over twenty years ago, shot during the armed robbery
Speaker 1: and killed and his son was only eighteen nineteen working
Speaker 1: his way with the pizza prou Uni and I got
Speaker 1: to I knew of Ken when I was in the police,
Speaker 1: but I didn't work his son's case. But we met
Speaker 1: up after I left the police, and I was sort
Speaker 1: of overwhelmed with a lot of things that were going
Speaker 1: on in my life. And yeah, it was almost imposter syndrome.
Speaker 1: I've gone from policing then I'm working in the media
Speaker 1: and all that. And he said, you have got an
Speaker 1: important platform because of who you are and what you've
Speaker 1: done and take getting back to the point that you raised,
Speaker 1: I think that's where it does carry some weight in
Speaker 1: that I'm not looked at as a bleeding heart. So
Speaker 1: if I'm saying, hey, maybe we could do things a
Speaker 1: little bit differently, people do they can't just write me
Speaker 1: off as a do gooder, and they actually listen. And
Speaker 1: I think that's the people on the other side of
Speaker 1: the law, like the people that have been in trouble
Speaker 1: with the law. I think they start to see what
Speaker 1: I can deliver to that I'll actually listen to them,
Speaker 1: get to know them, and then you know if there's
Speaker 1: a reason why they've committed a crime or how we
Speaker 1: could change that. I think that's making a big difference
Speaker 1: in the world of crime. So that's where I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm still doing something that I'm passionate about, because
Speaker 1: I'm not very good at doing stuff. If I'm not
Speaker 1: passionate about it, I can fake it, but I don't
Speaker 1: make it. But if I'm really driven by something, I
Speaker 1: can frame myself in one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: I would imagine a few people have asked you over
Speaker 2: the past five years about what skills you drew upon
Speaker 2: or what you had to learn about a career pivot.
Speaker 2: But I I think the word empathy, which is clearly
Speaker 2: a word that is important to you and resonates. I
Speaker 2: think that's a really critical component of being a journalist
Speaker 2: or a storyteller or an interviewer. And I think It's
Speaker 2: something that clearly permeates your work on I Catch Killers
Speaker 2: and in your other work and your books. So that
Speaker 2: I think is a very underrated character reistic as a journalist.
Speaker 2: I would imagine it probably was in the police force
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: I had a lot of success in some investigations because
Speaker 1: I would like, whether it's criminal informants, witnesses or whatever,
Speaker 1: I'd give a little bit of myself. I was all in,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't me just asking questions with no emotion.
Speaker 1: I'd be sitting there, I'd be living the emotion with them.
Speaker 1: If I've got an informant. Some of the organized crime
Speaker 1: jobs I know we're talking about, we're rolling the dice
Speaker 1: with your life, Like if they're going to give up
Speaker 1: these people, they will be killed if they find out.
Speaker 1: So there's a genuineness to it. You can't fake it.
Speaker 1: And I think one thing in policing, especially at the
Speaker 1: sharp end like homicide investigation, people are attuned. They're hyper
Speaker 1: alert on your emotions. If you're faking it, if you're
Speaker 1: sitting there and you're taking a statement you're not really interested,
Speaker 1: people get it and they shut up. So I learned
Speaker 1: that skill, and I think that was transferable into my
Speaker 1: redirecting my energies into the media. But when policing was
Speaker 1: taken away from me, that was a hard, hard point.
Speaker 1: I had to basically pick myself up and go because
Speaker 1: you know, it was front page paper and Painter is
Speaker 1: a corrupt cop. And I think I've talked about it enough,
Speaker 1: but recording conversations on the telephone. I'm not ashamed of
Speaker 1: what I did, but it was confronting. The passion I
Speaker 1: had for policing was literally taken away from me overnight.
Speaker 1: So when I try to explain that to people, think
Speaker 1: of the thing you're most passionate about in life, and
Speaker 1: then one day, in an instant, it's taken away and
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to do it. Do it anymore. Because
Speaker 1: that's what I went through. So I felt sorry for
Speaker 1: myself and I had on the lounge and I think
Speaker 1: it got to the point where and this is sort
Speaker 1: of over a couple of weeks, months and different things
Speaker 1: sitting there and I'm just sitting on the lounge eleven
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. I hadn't trained, and normally I
Speaker 1: would train every day, and I just basically had to
Speaker 1: give myself an upper cut and get up stupid and
Speaker 1: the thing that may evated me. I've seen you know,
Speaker 1: I'm crying poor, Well, what's happened to me? I lost
Speaker 1: a job, but I've got opportunity, so it wasn't that bad.
Speaker 1: So it sort of picked myself up and got on
Speaker 1: with things.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you, Gary a little bit about
Speaker 2: the true crime genre and how you feel about it
Speaker 2: as somebody that unlike a lot of other people internationally
Speaker 2: as well, it's a huge genre who have become really
Speaker 2: well known content creators to use the current vernacular in
Speaker 2: the space, there is obviously a high risk of exploitation.
Speaker 2: In fact, there is not just a high risk of exploitation,
Speaker 2: we see blatant exploitation of victim stories. This year will
Speaker 2: mark ten years since the release of Making a Murderer
Speaker 2: on Netflix. It was a massive hit at the time.
Speaker 2: For me, it just felt that the female victim of
Speaker 2: that homicide was completely relegated to a footnote. And then
Speaker 2: obviously we've seen some other true crime work where the
Speaker 2: reverse has happened. I mean, I think the Teacher's Pet
Speaker 2: is an example where absolutely like a female victim who
Speaker 2: had been forgotten and justice had never been achieved, but
Speaker 2: because of your lifelong work with victims, your advocacy, your
Speaker 2: actual cold hard record in you have, as the title says,
Speaker 2: I catch killers and people have you know, justice has
Speaker 2: been achieved because of work done by you and your team.
Speaker 2: How does that sit with you? Do you agree that
Speaker 2: there is some exploitation? Where do you draw the line?
Speaker 1: Yeah? A good question because that was part of what
Speaker 1: I struggled with when I first signed up. And you know,
Speaker 1: when I left the police, I was offered a lot
Speaker 1: of different opportunities, and some of it I would have
Speaker 1: considered glorifying crime. What are we trying to achieve with this?
Speaker 1: Are we recreating the crime that's already been solved? What's
Speaker 1: it about? So I was very wary of that because
Speaker 1: I would have felt like a hypocrite, given that I've
Speaker 1: dedicated my career to you know, I believe looking after
Speaker 1: victims and the interests of victims. To exploit that situation,
Speaker 1: I think there's a fine line. And that's when I
Speaker 1: talk about the way I Catch Killers podcast. I give
Speaker 1: everyone the platform, so I'm not telling the listener what
Speaker 1: view they should take, but allowing them to understand it,
Speaker 1: not glorifying the crime. Understanding the ramifications the impact that
Speaker 1: has on people. I think that gets lost and I
Speaker 1: sometimes the true crime podcast just get polished up, and
Speaker 1: to me, that's not what crimes about. People find it
Speaker 1: interesting when I'm sitting down speaking to victims of crime,
Speaker 1: and it could be in the most horrend the situations
Speaker 1: where they've lost family members, multiple family members or things
Speaker 1: like that, and they hear me laughing and laughing with
Speaker 1: the people I'm speaking with. That's how you handle the emotion.
Speaker 1: It's not disrespectful to the victims. It's a fact that
Speaker 1: it's a fact of life. That's the way that people
Speaker 1: have got to get through. So quite often I'll have
Speaker 1: victims of crime on there, but they still find joy.
Speaker 1: But that's about surviving. That's about surviving crime. Some of
Speaker 1: the podcasts and I don't want to be critical of
Speaker 1: the podcast because they bring in other types of podcasts,
Speaker 1: because they bring in a level of difference that I
Speaker 1: don't have. But that's what I'm proud of with By
Speaker 1: Catch Killers is that I never forget where I've come
Speaker 1: from and I never forget the impact. And so people
Speaker 1: have got a story and they're allowed to tell the story.
Speaker 1: But the interest You've said about who's the listeners on
Speaker 1: true crime podcasts, like why women are interested? I get
Speaker 1: to asked that question a lot. I've heard other people
Speaker 1: answer the question. Some people say, and I'm making a
Speaker 1: general comment, but women think they can change people, which
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard that. That wasn't my comment. But women
Speaker 1: listen and think, Okay, well, if someone's gone off track,
Speaker 1: maybe they needed this, maybe they needed that. I think
Speaker 1: it comes down to this is my take on it.
Speaker 1: The world of crime is fascinating because we always want
Speaker 1: to see what's behind the curtain, and with true crime
Speaker 1: podcasts you get to see we like to might come
Speaker 1: from a kid, like a scary movie or whatever. In
Speaker 1: the early days. We want to find out, you know,
Speaker 1: we want to be shocked, and it just makes what
Speaker 1: can be a fairly normal life a little bit more interesting.
Speaker 1: But I think the thing that really kicks in and
Speaker 1: I think if we're all on us, we've gott to
Speaker 1: put our hands up to it. We all think we're detectives,
Speaker 1: we've got an inquiry in mind, and everyone thinks, give
Speaker 1: me the facts als of it. And I think that's
Speaker 1: just human nature. I think it's funny. I've been I've
Speaker 1: now been out of the business. I'm one of those
Speaker 1: chair critics that I think this person's done it or
Speaker 1: that person. But I think that's in our nature. We're
Speaker 1: curious and we want to solve things, so I think
Speaker 1: that sort of buys into it. But also that side
Speaker 1: of life that people generally don't get to see, but
Speaker 1: they can have a look without any danger associated with it,
Speaker 1: So I think that's where the interest comes.
Speaker 2: And coming up Gary on meditation, yoga and the importance
Speaker 2: of a calm mind. Obviously mentioned earlier, the circumstances in
Speaker 2: which he left the force, and obously I think it
Speaker 2: was the William Terrell investigation. Of course when he disappeared
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen that really obviously catapulted you, for better
Speaker 2: or worse at the time, into being a really household name.
Speaker 2: But before that, of course, there had been Underbelly Badness,
Speaker 2: which was the fifth series of the famous Underbelly franchise
Speaker 2: on nine and the series aired in twenty twelve, where
Speaker 2: a character based on You was played by Matt Nabel.
Speaker 2: Whether it was that or before that, you obviously were
Speaker 2: a lot more high profile than the average homicide detective.
Speaker 2: Even before the William Terrell case, When did you first
Speaker 2: become aware of the moment that you were starting to
Speaker 2: lose your anonymity.
Speaker 1: I think within the organization, earlier public a little bit
Speaker 1: later at the stage of the Underbelly series. I've been
Speaker 1: doing homicide investigation for a very long time, and that
Speaker 1: was the first time a serving police officer has been
Speaker 1: portrayed as a serving police officer. So it was there
Speaker 1: was no hiding. That was me and I remember speaking
Speaker 1: to the police media unit who gave the approval for
Speaker 1: it to go through because it was a positive representation
Speaker 1: of police. And I'm proud of that investigation that we
Speaker 1: did as a team, not just myself. It was a
Speaker 1: team effort. But that changed the landscape for me. What
Speaker 1: I found within my own organization there was some resentment,
Speaker 1: resentment from people about was he getting recognition The people
Speaker 1: that I respect, the ones that I respected as detectives,
Speaker 1: they were approach and go good on you, because they
Speaker 1: work just as hard, if not harder, than I did.
Speaker 1: And they realized it was just by fate that they've
Speaker 1: picked up on that investigation. I could use it in
Speaker 1: my favor, and it was also detrimental in a way
Speaker 1: if I got in the witness box at court. The
Speaker 1: barristers like I was in the witness box all the
Speaker 1: time at murder trials. The barristers wanted to beat up
Speaker 1: on the that's that Gary Jubilan character from Underbelly. So
Speaker 1: that sort of worked against me my own organization. I
Speaker 1: think they became wary of me. They couldn't understand where
Speaker 1: I was coming from. My passion was doing the work.
Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to climb the promotional ladder. I wasn't
Speaker 1: interested in that. I found that further up you went
Speaker 1: more boring. It got tied. As a chief inspector, I
Speaker 1: could use it in my favor with the crooks, like
Speaker 1: if I knock on the door and they answered the door,
Speaker 1: oh shit, that's that dude, the dude from Underbelly, and
Speaker 1: they know it's serious. So it could work work in
Speaker 1: my favor. But that gave me the sort of public profile.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of other ones, and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of jobs that I did that didn't attract public attention,
Speaker 1: but just a few of the high profile ones. But
Speaker 1: bearing in mind, I was in homicide for over twenty
Speaker 1: years or twenty five years. I was investigating homicide, so
Speaker 1: people become aware of who you are.
Speaker 2: And then, as you say, there was a little bit
Speaker 2: of resentment. There were things that worked in your favor,
Speaker 2: but I suppose it's made you a little bit of
Speaker 2: a target in some ways. Was that then what you
Speaker 2: think maybe came to a head with the Tyrill investigation.
Speaker 2: Do you think if you hadn't had that high profile
Speaker 2: that because we know sometimes when people have got scores
Speaker 2: to settle for whatever reason, whether it's jealousy or other
Speaker 2: things that I mean, I could speculate about that. You
Speaker 2: then as soon as people think, well, here's here's the
Speaker 2: opportunity to bring this person down, do you feel that
Speaker 2: was probably maybe, looking back, pave the way.
Speaker 1: I think it was. And I say this, and I'm
Speaker 1: not choosing in words, because I mean, I think there
Speaker 1: were some very narrow people that wanted to bring me
Speaker 1: down and spiteful, spitefully in the way that it all
Speaker 1: played out with me. But when it all blew up,
Speaker 1: and it blew up and it was leaked to the
Speaker 1: media recording a conversation on my telephone, still shake my
Speaker 1: head at that. Given the fact that we had listening
Speaker 1: devices in the place approved by a Supreme Court judge
Speaker 1: I could go on and on, but it bores people
Speaker 1: and I understand understand that. But what gave me a
Speaker 1: lot of strength was I got people from across the country,
Speaker 1: detectives that are high profile detectives from across the country,
Speaker 1: some of which I didn't even know, but they reached
Speaker 1: out to me and said, we've been through this same process,
Speaker 1: the same thing. You know, we got a reputation and
Speaker 1: the organization turns on you like that. It was annoying,
Speaker 1: It was frustrating the impact that have on the wiim
Speaker 1: Tural matter. I think was devastating. There are other investigations
Speaker 1: that I was working on that I just had to well,
Speaker 1: I wasn't allowed to work on them anymore. So that
Speaker 1: hurt me more than losing my career. The fact that
Speaker 1: I'd made the commitment to William Tyrell's Families, foster and biological,
Speaker 1: I'd do everything humanly possible and other investigations that was
Speaker 1: all taken away. And so it was hurtful. But a
Speaker 1: good friend of mine and I had a lot of
Speaker 1: good people reach out to me, and one bit of
Speaker 1: advice I've got was, you know, you can take opportunity here.
Speaker 1: You can even embrace You've got a whole world open
Speaker 1: to you now and embrace it, or you could wallow
Speaker 1: in yourself pity, but you'll get one time wallowing in
Speaker 1: yourself pity and everyone going, Okay, we've heard that before.
Speaker 1: Nick Caldos, a deputy commissioner he left the police before me.
Speaker 1: He reached out and said, Gary, you will see the
Speaker 1: world is so much bigger outside the police. You think
Speaker 1: the police is a big world, but you're very insular
Speaker 1: in the way that you think, like who's going to
Speaker 1: be the next commissioner and all that. When it's all
Speaker 1: said and done, who cares other than people within the police.
Speaker 1: He said, wait till you see the world world outside,
Speaker 1: and he said, you know, there's so much on offer
Speaker 1: outside there. And I found that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: They were very accurate words, weren't they. And I think
Speaker 2: a great message also for people to hear at any time,
Speaker 2: but especially this time of year, where people are reflecting
Speaker 2: on the year that was and then the year that's ahead.
Speaker 2: And if people listening are working through anything, or they
Speaker 2: feel that they've got unfinished business or where I am
Speaker 2: right now, there's no way of getting through this. I
Speaker 2: think these stories of resilient and of thinking, oh, it's
Speaker 2: never going to be better than what I had before,
Speaker 2: But you're living proof that even though you don't know
Speaker 2: it at the time, even the hardest moments can be
Speaker 2: the start of a whole new chapter.
Speaker 1: I think that has opened up so many different things
Speaker 1: in my life. And I know I wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: able to walk away from the police. I was too
Speaker 1: passionate about it, so I would have stayed there till
Speaker 1: the day I died, I think, and that would have
Speaker 1: been there one more case, one more case. So this
Speaker 1: was a chance to reset and rethink the way I
Speaker 1: approach approach, approach things, and it was good for me.
Speaker 1: It was a wake up call for me and I
Speaker 1: had to I'm proud of the fact I sit here,
Speaker 1: proud of the fact that I always thought I love
Speaker 1: being in the police, but I didn't need to be
Speaker 1: in the police. And I think there's people that hide
Speaker 1: behind the fact that they've got power with a badge
Speaker 1: and the authority that comes with the police. I was
Speaker 1: never beholding to the police. I did it because I
Speaker 1: loved it. I knew I could make a life for
Speaker 1: myself out soide police, But policing is what I chose
Speaker 1: to do as my vacation and my passion. I'm proud
Speaker 1: of the fact that I've had to put it to
Speaker 1: the test and Okay, take my gun, take my badge,
Speaker 1: take my power to take everything away from me. And look,
Speaker 1: I'm still standing. I'm still surviving and quite enjoying myself
Speaker 1: and coming into the media. I'm always one that believes
Speaker 1: you've got to pay your dues, and it was confronting
Speaker 1: that I still to this day, five years down the
Speaker 1: track and I've managed to carve out a career in
Speaker 1: the media, I've still got that imposter syndrome feeling about me,
Speaker 1: going what am I doing here? Like I think the
Speaker 1: first article I wrote for the paper was on the
Speaker 1: front page, Like how terrifying. I wish I paid more attention.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not like getting it as a cadet.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking I haven't paid my dues so I had
Speaker 1: the last five years. I've worked very hard. But that's me,
Speaker 1: just something that's instilled in me. Pay your dues to
Speaker 1: get where you are. And I'm always with the podcast
Speaker 1: You're only as good as your last podcast. And a
Speaker 1: fear of failure I saw to carry with me and
Speaker 1: my father installed that in me. I've tried to install
Speaker 1: in my kids enjoy the success rather than fear the failure.
Speaker 1: But I've always been one of the fear of the failure.
Speaker 1: So that's why I sort of keep pushing and pushing.
Speaker 2: Did you have that ever feeling of being an impost
Speaker 2: when you were in the force.
Speaker 1: There was policing and myself felt like a glove From
Speaker 1: the day I walked into the academy, I thought, Yep,
Speaker 1: this is what I'm meant to do. I was aimless.
Speaker 1: I was working in the building industry. I didn't have
Speaker 1: much direction. There's a lot of people you don't find
Speaker 1: you true passion. Early when I got into policing, just yeah,
Speaker 1: I can do this. I'm working with people all the
Speaker 1: skills that I had come into play with in the police.
Speaker 1: And then there was a period in time when I
Speaker 1: became a homicide detective and I strived for that and
Speaker 1: I was so excited when I'm actually a homicide detective
Speaker 1: working cases and then leading cases. And then it got
Speaker 1: to a point where I looked around and thought, I
Speaker 1: am the most ex experient's homicide detective. There there's no
Speaker 1: one else I can confer with. And I say that
Speaker 1: there their peers that I would consult with on difficult cases.
Speaker 1: But that was fairly confronting when you sort of look
Speaker 1: around and go, okay, well, if this murder happens, who's
Speaker 1: going to do it? And I remember saying and someone
Speaker 1: thought I was a bit cocky and arrogant. That someone
Speaker 1: was saying a boss. I didn't quite agree with what
Speaker 1: she was saying. And she was talking about the importance
Speaker 1: of career development and working your way up the career ladder,
Speaker 1: and I said, you know what my dream is is
Speaker 1: if you're interested, because you've told me what your dream
Speaker 1: is and what you want to achieve, and it's climbing
Speaker 1: up the corporate ladder. Within the police, I want to
Speaker 1: be if the Prime Minister gets murdered, I want to
Speaker 1: be the person they call to investigate the prime minister
Speaker 1: being murdered. That is that's where my expertise is. So
Speaker 1: that's the one thing that I'm confident in saying that
Speaker 1: I was good at in life, and I'd fail at
Speaker 1: more things, not successful at homicide investigation. That just saw
Speaker 1: of worked for me. I understood the science behind that,
Speaker 1: the psychology behind it, and the passion that you needed
Speaker 1: to investigate homicide.
Speaker 2: Well before then we move on to a different topic.
Speaker 2: Just wanted to ask then about the William Tyrell investigation
Speaker 2: and his disappearance, because, as you said, Gary, that was
Speaker 2: something that felt like unfinished business to you and that
Speaker 2: you had made promises or felt a responsibility to his family,
Speaker 2: both his foster family and his biological family. Last year
Speaker 2: was ten years since his disappearance. The matter has been
Speaker 2: back before the courts. There's a podcast that's also part
Speaker 2: of my team. Producer at Fabulous Dan Box, Anina Young,
Speaker 2: and news dot com dot are you witness William Tyrel?
Speaker 2: Where are you in terms of being reconciled with the case,
Speaker 2: Do you think that there will ever be close there?
Speaker 2: And how are you feeling about your connection with that
Speaker 2: and the family at this point in your life and career.
Speaker 1: It's a difficult one for me. There's not a day
Speaker 1: that goes by where someone doesn't speak to me about
Speaker 1: the wim tural matter, or I'm not thinking about the
Speaker 1: wim tural matter. I think it's disgraceful the way it's
Speaker 1: playing out at the moment. I am as confused. I've
Speaker 1: been off it now for five coming on six years.
Speaker 1: I think I'm as confused as a public as the
Speaker 1: information that's got out, not just blaming the police, media
Speaker 1: or reported on things that I know are not not correct,
Speaker 1: and everyone's got an opinion what I think in terms
Speaker 1: of closure, I think there really needs and I've said
Speaker 1: this and I'll say it again, I think there needs
Speaker 1: to be some form of inquiry what's happened with that investigation.
Speaker 1: I'm not seeing things come out at the inquest that
Speaker 1: I thought irrelevant. I led that investigation for four years,
Speaker 1: documented all decisions I made and the directions the investigation
Speaker 1: was headed in and I am quite confused the way
Speaker 1: it's played out and publicly how the foster mother has
Speaker 1: been nominated as a person of interest. I make this
Speaker 1: point when I took the investigation over five months after
Speaker 1: William's disappearance. In the handover from Detective Chief Inspector hands Rupp,
Speaker 1: who was running the investigation to start with, he told
Speaker 1: told in the hand up that the family have been eliminated.
Speaker 1: When I was running the investigation, I had another look
Speaker 1: at the family. There was a member of the strikeforce
Speaker 1: that wanted to explore some aspects of it very vigorously.
Speaker 1: Had a look at the family again overt and covert
Speaker 1: investigative techniques. I came away from that very confident that
Speaker 1: the foster mother and foster father for that matter, had
Speaker 1: no knowledge or involvement in William's disappearance. The foster mother
Speaker 1: gave evidence in support of me at my hearing and
Speaker 1: was also critical of senior police, and these are just
Speaker 1: the facts and the timing of it. Then she becomes
Speaker 1: a person of interest after she's criticized senior Police, and
Speaker 1: that's been leaked to the media, and it's been leaked
Speaker 1: to the media. The brief of evidence was sent to
Speaker 1: the DPP. I think that was eighteen months ago. There's
Speaker 1: no decision that's come back. Something about this just does
Speaker 1: not feel right. And I am still passionate about the
Speaker 1: William Tyrel matter. I can't let it go. I won't
Speaker 1: let it go. And it's not me losing perspective and
Speaker 1: it's not me trying to justify my position. I think we,
Speaker 1: and I'm still including myself as a police officer in
Speaker 1: this term, should be judged on the way that investigation
Speaker 1: has been handled. And I don't know how the public
Speaker 1: could possibly have confidence in what's going on. There seems
Speaker 1: to be there was a cranial in question. When we
Speaker 1: we've heard for eighteen months and we've heard the Commissioner
Speaker 1: of Police saying there's only one suspect pointing the finger
Speaker 1: at the foster mother and there's no evidence to support that.
Speaker 1: You can't make allegations allegations like that. I've been criticized
Speaker 1: about things in the William Teral matter, and I'm caught
Speaker 1: up in the internal conflict, which is disappointing. So I'm
Speaker 1: not stepping away saying I'm innocent, but I'd just like
Speaker 1: the full facts to come out, and I know with
Speaker 1: the witness William Yrrell podcast, I know the effort that
Speaker 1: Dan's put into that, and I'm hoping that gives a
Speaker 1: public a clearer understanding of what is the information out there,
Speaker 1: because I think they'd be shocked if they fully understood
Speaker 1: what's going on with this investigation. So, in light of
Speaker 1: my very lengthy answer, clearly I haven't haven't given up,
Speaker 1: and the thing that we should all be hang on
Speaker 1: to the fact a young child has disappeared. That shouldn't
Speaker 1: get lost in all the politics and all the infighting
Speaker 1: and all that we all should be working in the
Speaker 1: same direction to bring some closure and that therein lies
Speaker 1: my frustration. Have not even been able to do a handover, Like,
Speaker 1: how can you take someone off an investigation working on
Speaker 1: for four years without a handover? And it wasn't me
Speaker 1: spitting the dummy saying no, I don't want to I'm
Speaker 1: not going to speak to you because you've been horrible
Speaker 1: to me. I'm saying I will help in any way
Speaker 1: I can. I turned up at the inquest in my suit,
Speaker 1: ready to give evidence. How can you have an inquest
Speaker 1: without hands Rup hasn't been called as a witness. He
Speaker 1: ran the investigation for five months. I haven't been called
Speaker 1: as a witness. I ran the investigation for four years.
Speaker 1: And Dave Laidlaw, who's run the investigation for six years,
Speaker 1: hasn't been called as a witness. I haven't seen anything
Speaker 1: like it.
Speaker 2: It's so frustrating. I can only imagine the frustration for
Speaker 2: you and for everyone in William's life life. Because time
Speaker 2: also we know if anything, even going back to armchair detectives,
Speaker 2: we know that when time is of the essence, when
Speaker 2: time gets squandered on these sort of petty politics or
Speaker 2: maybe red herrings, we've seen this even in fairly recent cases.
Speaker 2: I would argue that Maddie McCann case was a case
Speaker 2: in point. You don't get that time back.
Speaker 1: You don't get that time back, and the focus should
Speaker 1: be on finding out finding out what happened. And in
Speaker 1: saying this, if there is an inquiry, if I have
Speaker 1: not done something right or whatever, I'm happy for the
Speaker 1: criticism because we've got to improve. We've got to be
Speaker 1: judged by that. So I think we all should go
Speaker 1: to the table with that form of can we have
Speaker 1: done this better? Should have we done this better? And
Speaker 1: it's just sad all around that it breaks my heart
Speaker 1: and the impact it's had on the foster parents. And
Speaker 1: I say this, the people that have pointed the finger
Speaker 1: at the foster mother if they find if they found
Speaker 1: out that that's not not correct, I don't know how
Speaker 1: they can sleep at night with themselves because they have
Speaker 1: destroyed a person's life. And yeah, and I've been criticized
Speaker 1: of it, there was criticism of things I did. I
Speaker 1: still stand by what I did. The courts have criticized me.
Speaker 1: I've got to accept the accept the findings of the court.
Speaker 1: But I also believe the courts are only as good
Speaker 1: as the information that's been provided to them. So there's
Speaker 1: so much damage, so many lives have been impacted upon,
Speaker 1: and yeah, we've got to got to find finances. But
Speaker 1: coming back to Willims disappeared and then the lives that
Speaker 1: have been destroyed around will and whether it's a biological
Speaker 1: family or the foster foster family, but it's just to me,
Speaker 1: it seems like an ongoing nightmare for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that ripple effect, we talked about it, it's most
Speaker 2: absolute heartbreaking and devastating. Gary, big big segue here, big
Speaker 2: gears change. Coming into final few questions, workplace stress. I
Speaker 2: imagine everything that we've just talked about you would have
Speaker 2: had experience of workplace stress in a very unique and
Speaker 2: acute way. Which brings me to what I teased at
Speaker 2: the start of our conversation about your long term interest
Speaker 2: in what we now call wellness and wellbeing real buzzwords
Speaker 2: of the last few years. And I mean that in
Speaker 2: a good way actually, So as I say it's a
Speaker 2: little bit unexpected, some people might think that Gary Jubilan
Speaker 2: is you know, I've brought him on to talk a
Speaker 2: little bit about wellness among other things. But your producer
Speaker 2: Emily told us that you've been meditating for decades. Now,
Speaker 2: When did that start?
Speaker 1: It started in my twenties, early twenties. I was very
Speaker 1: much in the fitness when I joined the police. A
Speaker 1: lot before that, I was active, active as a kid,
Speaker 1: teenager and playing playing sport. But then I got into training,
Speaker 1: got into martial arts, super fit. But I would get sick.
Speaker 1: If I walked past someone with a cold, I'd get
Speaker 1: I'd get sick, and so I spake. I was training
Speaker 1: in kung fu and kickboxing, and I spoke to a
Speaker 1: sifu and some of the instructors and said, you're concentrating
Speaker 1: too much on the hard training. You need to do
Speaker 1: some soft training. So hard training being the hard physical sweating, exhaustion,
Speaker 1: soft training being the meditation. Chigong was a practice I
Speaker 1: first got into, which is like I think tai chi,
Speaker 1: it's like a moving form of meditation. Because I could
Speaker 1: see them doing things physically that I couldn't, I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: I want a piece of it. I want a piece
Speaker 1: of that. So I got into got into chigung fairly early.
Speaker 1: And I got to say, in chigong meditation yoga, you
Speaker 1: can imagine the classes back back then. And I'd walk
Speaker 1: in and what do you do I'm a cop, and
Speaker 1: everyone just look at me and go, this is weird police.
Speaker 1: Within the police, I would I would talk about, yeah,
Speaker 1: talk about yeah, I was boxing, I was kick boxing,
Speaker 1: doing kung fur. But I also do this meditation and
Speaker 1: we'd go away a lot in homicide, so yeah, people
Speaker 1: that I work with sometimes would be sharing the room
Speaker 1: and go, what the fuck are you doing if I
Speaker 1: was sitting there cross legged or meditating. But I found that,
Speaker 1: I found it. Really it's really beneficial for me. And
Speaker 1: I've continued the practice all through my life. And it
Speaker 1: really I was fortunate enough. And I say fortunate enough
Speaker 1: because I think I was lucky in regards or just
Speaker 1: something that kept me on track. I didn't have time
Speaker 1: off in the thirty four years I was in the police.
Speaker 1: I always I could always maintaintain my health and the
Speaker 1: stresses that you get from work, Like sometimes in homicide,
Speaker 1: I want to come out, I just want to jump
Speaker 1: in a boxing ring and get kicking, kicked in the
Speaker 1: head or punched in the head, and that settles me
Speaker 1: down because you're only focusing on that, you're not stressed
Speaker 1: about that. But other times you come home really hardwired.
Speaker 1: You've been on a job that you might be up
Speaker 1: for forty eight hours, you're barking out orders or things
Speaker 1: are happening, You're making big decisions, and I realized that
Speaker 1: I'm now the step with the rest of the world basically,
Speaker 1: And what Chigool, meditation and yoga gave me is it
Speaker 1: it was sort of something I can keep in my
Speaker 1: back pocket that I could use whenever I knew where
Speaker 1: I felt. I had to bring myself down, so I practice.
Speaker 1: I got to one point where it became because I
Speaker 1: get addicted to something, so it became I've got to
Speaker 1: meditate in the night in the morning, and that became stressful, stupid.
Speaker 1: It's all about feeling better. So I've done the practice
Speaker 1: long enough to know I know when I need it.
Speaker 1: And what I explained to people with meditation, some people
Speaker 1: think you can just I can drag someone off the
Speaker 1: street that's never meditated before and they can sit there
Speaker 1: and just meditate. It's like me dragging you off the
Speaker 1: street and telling you to run a marathon. You need
Speaker 1: to practice and develop those skills. I've got those skills
Speaker 1: and I can use it so I could maybe I
Speaker 1: have a stressful interview here, I could walk out, go home,
Speaker 1: and just calm my mind in ten to fifteen minutes
Speaker 1: through meditation and movement. So I've had some interesting experiences
Speaker 1: with it, like I've gone to yoga retreats through Indonesia
Speaker 1: and over in Nepal and different different things like that,
Speaker 1: and it's opened my mind up to a lot of
Speaker 1: things and it takes me very much out of my
Speaker 1: comfort zone and it's worked for me. Post Traumatic stress
Speaker 1: is a big, big ticket item. A lot of people
Speaker 1: talk about post traumatic stress. When I left the police
Speaker 1: people and they weren't. They were trying to do the
Speaker 1: right thing by me. They're going, Gary, you've been doing
Speaker 1: homicide for twenty years, you're stress, You're running all these jobs.
Speaker 1: You know, go off sick and I've gone. But I'm
Speaker 1: not sick. I am not not sick, but you could
Speaker 1: be because of this and that. What I think has
Speaker 1: helped me all the way through through my career is
Speaker 1: the soft training, the hard training. But I do train.
Speaker 1: I train every day. If I don't train, I'm out
Speaker 1: of whack. I was going to say I'm not a
Speaker 1: good person, which is probably true, but I just feel
Speaker 1: out of whack. So I make a habit of it.
Speaker 1: And when I'm at my most stressed. If I train
Speaker 1: and get myself into pointed in the right direction, it's
Speaker 1: so beneficial. So when I go through and we all
Speaker 1: go through stresses in life, that's and you know, on
Speaker 1: the podcast, I get to see people who have gone
Speaker 1: through the most enormous stress situations. But I feel like
Speaker 1: I've got an advantage on people because I know what
Speaker 1: to do to bring myself self down and it's helped
Speaker 1: me time and time again. Certainly, when my police career
Speaker 1: came to an end, I didn't have employment straight away.
Speaker 1: I was used to talking to one hundred people a day.
Speaker 1: That was basically cut off. I allowed to talk to
Speaker 1: any police basically sitting at home and I was struggling.
Speaker 1: But then after the wake up call where I sort
Speaker 1: of slapped myself across the face, get up and train,
Speaker 1: And so I just trained harder and harder and got
Speaker 1: myself fit and ready to take on the world again.
Speaker 1: I would do that in the cops as well. Sometimes
Speaker 1: if I knew a big job was coming up, I
Speaker 1: would be training really hard in knowing I need to
Speaker 1: be sharp, I need to be ready, and healthy mind.
Speaker 1: Healthy body leads to a healthy mind. I honestly believe,
Speaker 1: because I couldn't understand with the siffers that I trained under,
Speaker 1: all the different masters I trained under, I've gone a
Speaker 1: sort of counterintuitive We're beating the crap out of each
Speaker 1: other here, and then we're sitting there not singing Kumbai Aar,
Speaker 1: but sitting there chanting or whatever. And it was described
Speaker 1: to me, and I think this is a simple way
Speaker 1: of describing it is that if you've got if you're
Speaker 1: not physical just the way you carry yourself, your shoulders,
Speaker 1: you've got your blinkers on, so physically you're not walking
Speaker 1: carrying yourself properly, that leads to your mental outlook. And
Speaker 1: it made sense to me, like when I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm fit and things are going well, I'm up, I'm
Speaker 1: looking and my mind's open open to things. When I'm
Speaker 1: not feeling the best, it's sort of my mind narrows down.
Speaker 1: So I saw the balance there. But I've had some
Speaker 1: interesting experiences, like I was doing going through a particularly
Speaker 1: busy period at that homicide that was what the Underbelly
Speaker 1: series was based on, and that was a couple of
Speaker 1: years of chaos. And I went to a place in Chinatown,
Speaker 1: choy Lee Foot and did chigong there and there's this
Speaker 1: old Chinese master there and didn't speak a lot of English,
Speaker 1: but I would walk into the chigung class and it
Speaker 1: was a classic. It felt like you're in the back
Speaker 1: streets of Hong Kong. You walk up behind the restaurant,
Speaker 1: up the stairs and you go into the class and
Speaker 1: he'd look at me and go, you took cranky, mister
Speaker 1: policeman and slapped me on the face like that type
Speaker 1: of thing. And then you're sitting there and you just
Speaker 1: can't calm down. And it was so beneficial to me.
Speaker 1: So and I am mindful of people that suffer post
Speaker 1: traumatic stress, and I got a bit of an understanding
Speaker 1: about it because it's great that you can learn from
Speaker 1: your kids. My son is in the army and a
Speaker 1: part of the he's also psychologist and part of his
Speaker 1: PhD is post traumatic stress for the military. And I
Speaker 1: often talk to him and he's early and his career
Speaker 1: is starting out, but talk about the benefits of training,
Speaker 1: and he sees that that's so so important. And everyone
Speaker 1: that I see that's suffering from post traumatic stress and
Speaker 1: I'm probably sympathying it too much, but you get a
Speaker 1: sense of achievement if you get up in the morning
Speaker 1: and do something. I train every morning Johnny Lewis, this
Speaker 1: is the boxing trainer. This is something that's beneficial from
Speaker 1: the cops because the ovil is just near my place
Speaker 1: where a train, So every morning five point thirty I
Speaker 1: trained with him. I also think good health and mental
Speaker 1: well being comes from being around having a tribe. And
Speaker 1: I lost my tribe when I was cut off from
Speaker 1: the police. That was my tribe. That was I'm a policeman.
Speaker 1: You've been kicked out of your tribe. But with this
Speaker 1: group earned a bunch of sort of all sorts that
Speaker 1: turn up for boxing, so a whole cross section of community,
Speaker 1: but there's a community feel. We have a bit of
Speaker 1: a laugh, bit of a chat and talk and then
Speaker 1: do the training and you walk away feeling good. So
Speaker 1: I'm also mindful of the need to have that social outlook.
Speaker 1: During COVID, which I hate to mention because I think
Speaker 1: it was handled just appallingly. Never once did I hear
Speaker 1: anyone talk about how about we all just try and
Speaker 1: get a little bit fitter and get out and exercise.
Speaker 1: During that I was living on my own and there
Speaker 1: was times during those lockdowns basically six Yeah, what was
Speaker 1: the longest one? Three months or whatever on your own.
Speaker 1: And I'd get up in the morning and I say,
Speaker 1: start talking to myself. I knew, yeah, I'm joking here,
Speaker 1: But morning Gary, Morning Gary, what are we up to today? Gary?
Speaker 1: Don't they Gary? Like I realized I was boring at
Speaker 1: that point in time too, But as I could chat
Speaker 1: to me, but that I would just I would train.
Speaker 1: That was my thing, my salvation, and exhaust yourself physically,
Speaker 1: then you can concentrate on what else you have to
Speaker 1: do for the day.
Speaker 2: And you mentioned having this in your back pocket. I
Speaker 2: mean these skills part of your toolkit, as you say,
Speaker 2: whatever life throws at any of us, knowing that you've
Speaker 2: got some strategies in place is so critical to getting
Speaker 2: out of bed each day. So I guess my final
Speaker 2: question then, Gary, you had a little bit of a
Speaker 2: hack there that don't if you can't free your mind,
Speaker 2: if you're not the word meditation, you know, strike sphere.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I've got too much going on in my
Speaker 2: head yoga? What is that I can't do any of
Speaker 2: these things you said? It's not like you can't just
Speaker 2: go in and do it any more than you would
Speaker 2: do a half marathon. So what would some hacks be
Speaker 2: for anyone listening that doesn't have this as part of
Speaker 2: their tool.
Speaker 1: Okay, I think it's a skill that's an acquired skill
Speaker 1: that you need to build up. The other thing that
Speaker 1: I see a lot of people fall by the wayside
Speaker 1: is they don't buy into moderation. In that I see
Speaker 1: some people that are clearly unfit and they'll come up
Speaker 1: to me and go And this would happen during the
Speaker 1: Cops because I'd train each day when I was in
Speaker 1: the police at lunch time and they are I'm going
Speaker 1: to get fit. I'm going to train and I'm thinking
Speaker 1: we'll just work up a sweat just you don't have
Speaker 1: to set the world on fire. But they come in inspired. Well,
Speaker 1: New Year's resolution is, I'm sure we've all done. I'm
Speaker 1: going to get fit this year. Just build up in mentally,
Speaker 1: don't take on the world. And the same with meditation.
Speaker 1: You will get in there and the first time you're
Speaker 1: in there, you'll be looking around going what the hell
Speaker 1: is going on going on here? But gradually, gradually you learn.
Speaker 1: And I talked to Goong. I also studied with a
Speaker 1: CIFU over in Perth. I was spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time living over in Perth at one stage, and such
Speaker 1: a science. So the more I learned, the more I
Speaker 1: realized I didn't know. So I take a little bit
Speaker 1: away from everyone and what works for me. So I've
Speaker 1: got a practice that works for me. So I just
Speaker 1: tell people one step at the time. Don't think it's
Speaker 1: going to be the fix everything, but it's something that
Speaker 1: you can add. And what I describe because people go, well,
Speaker 1: what happens when you meditate? What happens when you can
Speaker 1: let yourself go? I liken it to this, and I
Speaker 1: think we've all been in this position. You're lying on
Speaker 1: the lounge on the say a Sunday afternoon, you're just
Speaker 1: starting to fall asleep, and you know that really relaxed
Speaker 1: moment that you've had a big no or whatever, really
Speaker 1: relaxed moment and you're just drifting off. That's what I
Speaker 1: find that I achieve with meditation. I'm holding that moment
Speaker 1: and it's like watching the river. This is a good
Speaker 1: way of describing it, because you've got your thoughts going
Speaker 1: in your head, watching the river with things flowing down
Speaker 1: me your thoughts. Just let them pass, just let them
Speaker 1: go through. Just let them drift through your mind, because
Speaker 1: we could be sitting here meditating and there could be
Speaker 1: a car dipping the horn, because sometimes that's the environment
Speaker 1: you're meditating in. Just let it drift through. And these
Speaker 1: I'm by no means an expert, but I've learnt by
Speaker 1: experts and these are the sort of things that I've
Speaker 1: taken away and it does work. I love that.
Speaker 2: I love that idea of things drifting by us in
Speaker 2: the river.
Speaker 1: I'm going to try that, try it, and you're just
Speaker 1: you're watching the river, which is a peaceful thing, and
Speaker 1: you just things drift through. You don't hold that thought,
Speaker 1: you just let that pass pass through.
Speaker 2: Gary, it has been so fascinating talking to you today.
Speaker 2: I've gone way over time. I'm that I've already failed
Speaker 2: on my first New Years resolution, which was, you know,
Speaker 2: to try to keep conversations a bit short.
Speaker 1: You weren't listening the moderation work.
Speaker 2: I should I should have had somebody, you know, duller
Speaker 2: on because this has been too interesting. But you, of
Speaker 2: course can hear more from Gary on his podcast I
Speaker 2: Catch Killers. We'll link to that in the show notes.
Speaker 2: Gary Jubilin, thank you so much for your time today
Speaker 2: and wish you all the best for a very happy
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks very much and thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1: Then let's have a great year.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, if you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you're following
Speaker 2: us because we'll be back with another exclusive guest on
Speaker 2: Something to Talk About next week