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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, here's a special bonus episode for you. I

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Speaker 1: recently went on a podcast called Something to Talk About

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Speaker 1: with the host Sarah. We talked about all sorts of

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Speaker 1: things that have occurred in my life, how I got

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Speaker 1: through my police career relatively unscathed, and what I do

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Speaker 1: is stay sane in the world that I operated for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and also my post policing career, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of other things I didn't expect to be

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Speaker 1: talking about, but it was a bit of fun. I

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Speaker 1: hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Something to Talk About the Stella podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Sarah Lamarquin, to your host, and every week I

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Speaker 2: sit down with some of the biggest names in the

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Speaker 2: country because when Australia's celebrities are ready to talk, they

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Speaker 2: come to Something to talk about. Now, when you think

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Speaker 2: of mindfulness and wellness, the name Gary Jubilan might not

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Speaker 2: immediately spring to mind. Gary, of course, specialized in the

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Speaker 2: field of homicide for twenty five years, rising to the

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Speaker 2: rank of Detective Chief Inspector until the time of his

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Speaker 2: retirement from the force in twenty nineteen, a mid a

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Speaker 2: blaze of headlines. Since leaving, he's built another very successful career,

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Speaker 2: this time in the media as the author of two

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Speaker 2: best selling books and of course as host of one

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Speaker 2: of Australia's most successful podcasts, Eye Catch Killers. But here's

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Speaker 2: something you probably don't know about Gary. He's a big

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Speaker 2: fan of meditation. He's also really into yoga and he

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Speaker 2: believes that if you have a calm mind, it will

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Speaker 2: make everything better. Not perfect, but definitely better. Given it's

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Speaker 2: a time of year when many of us are thinking

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Speaker 2: about ways to improve our wellbeing and making all sorts

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Speaker 2: of New Year's health resolutions. On today's episode is something

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Speaker 2: to talk about. Gary joins me to discuss the importance

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Speaker 2: of mindfulness and physical and mental wellness. Gary Jubilan, Welcome

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Speaker 2: to the Stellar podcast.

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Speaker 1: Oh thanks very much for having me.

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Speaker 2: Lovely to have you in the studio. It is January.

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Speaker 2: You and I both know it's a time of year

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Speaker 2: where people are starting to think this is the year

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Speaker 2: where I'm going to overhaul my life and make all

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Speaker 2: the health resolutions. So it might surprise a few people

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Speaker 2: that I thought now might be the perfect time to

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Speaker 2: have you on the podcast. Have wanted to chat to

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Speaker 2: you for a long time because you've actually had quite

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Speaker 2: an interest in wellness for a long time. But before

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Speaker 2: we get to that, we might talk a little bit

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Speaker 2: about your day job, okay, And I'd like to chat

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Speaker 2: to you a little bit about what a sense you

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Speaker 2: have with the demographic of that audience. I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: also a huge female following and the interest among women

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Speaker 2: in some of the content in podcasts like yours, and

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Speaker 2: the crime genre is always seem so counterintuitive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not the type of people you think. It

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Speaker 1: might be a group of blokes listening to the next

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Speaker 1: cop talking to people about how bad guys were caught.

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Speaker 1: But what and I'm proud of this with the podcast, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's a volve too because I always thought when I

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Speaker 1: had to do a true crime podcast, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: give the listener a sense of what crime is all about. Now,

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Speaker 1: crime to me in the years as a homicide detective

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Speaker 1: and as a police officer, it's not one dimensional, like,

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Speaker 1: it's not black and white. There's a gray area. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of pain, but there's some really beautiful moments

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Speaker 1: to moments of redemption and forgiveness and all sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: So with the.

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Speaker 1: Podcast, that's what I've tried to tried to create wide

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Speaker 1: range of guests that we have on and basically the

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Speaker 1: benchmark for a guest is someone that I think would

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Speaker 1: be interesting, that I want to sit down and chat with.

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Speaker 1: And I think what the podcast is providing is people

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Speaker 1: getting an insight into crime from all sides. So we're

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Speaker 1: hearing not just from cops saying this is how we

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Speaker 1: caught the bad guy. We're hearing from crooks and some

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Speaker 1: notorious criminals. Criminals that I've had a few on that

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Speaker 1: when they were working I were working, were confronted each other,

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Speaker 1: there'd probably be guns drawn. Yeah, they were league, major

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Speaker 1: league criminals, but I've learned that sometimes their upbringing is

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Speaker 1: part of why they've gone into the line of work.

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Speaker 1: They did also victims of crime. The emotion I pay

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Speaker 1: homage to the victims of crime because I don't think

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Speaker 1: people fully understand we see the headlines of someone being

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Speaker 1: murdered doesn't just impact on one person. It's not just

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Speaker 1: a victim, it's the families and it can go on

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Speaker 1: for generations. It's also allowed me to push aspects of

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Speaker 1: law and order where police haven't done the right thing,

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Speaker 1: or the legislation is not right. I can actually get

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Speaker 1: informed people on to talk about that and sort of

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Speaker 1: open people's minds up on the different way of doing things.

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Speaker 1: So it's sort of grown organically, but it's something that

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Speaker 1: I really enjoy. And when I left the Cops and

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Speaker 1: it was in controversial and dramatic circumstances, I had all

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Speaker 1: this passion, I had all this energy, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: know where the channel it. But I've found that I

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Speaker 1: have been able to channel it through the podcast and

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Speaker 1: actually making a difference. And quite frankly, I think I'm

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Speaker 1: fortunate getting to speak to all these interesting people.

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Speaker 2: And we're very fortunate to listen to the stories of

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Speaker 2: all of these interesting people. And I love what you're

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Speaker 2: talking about there, Gary. One of the many aspects of

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Speaker 2: this work that you have found yourself throwing yourself into

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Speaker 2: in such a big way the last five years is,

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Speaker 2: as you say, talking to criminals and this idea of

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Speaker 2: redemption or rehabilitation. Can I ask you about your own

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Speaker 2: journey with that, because I would imagine coming through as

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Speaker 2: a homicide detective, as you say, you're on the sort

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Speaker 2: of other side, quote unquote, so to speak, while you're

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Speaker 2: in the force, will youse somebody that always had a

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Speaker 2: possible empathy or a curiosity about what had led to

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Speaker 2: somebody to create a criminal act.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting that you say the word empathy, and if

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Speaker 1: people ask me to describe what the good carteristic of

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Speaker 1: a detective is empathy. And all the people that I

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Speaker 1: looked up to, the homicide detectives, the ones that I

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Speaker 1: really strive to work at the level, they work one

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Speaker 1: common thing and it even comes out in the podcast

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Speaker 1: they talk about empathy, and I think that's so important

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Speaker 1: to understand. I think I've I've become a better person

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Speaker 1: after what's happened to me in the police. When I

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Speaker 1: was in the police, I had the empathy and that

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Speaker 1: I very much victim focus. But in regards to the

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Speaker 1: bad guys, I didn't have time to sort of reflect on, well,

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Speaker 1: you might have had a tough upbringing. Basically, a case

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Speaker 1: is allocated to you work the case, you solve it

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Speaker 1: if you can, you put it before the courts, and

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Speaker 1: then you move on to the next one. So I

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Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of time to reflect on why

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Speaker 1: this person is committing these type of offenses. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's so crucial in understanding crime and really

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Speaker 1: in the fight against crime. I always thought I was

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Speaker 1: making a big difference with powers of arrests, my handcuffs,

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Speaker 1: my gum, and I'm a cop and making a difference

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Speaker 1: in the world of crime. And I like to think

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Speaker 1: I did with the stuff that I was doing, but

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Speaker 1: I realized there's a lot of other people out there

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Speaker 1: that work just as hard and probably have a bigger impact,

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Speaker 1: and they're not cops. There. The people are helping people

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Speaker 1: steer them in the right direction, that type of thing.

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Speaker 1: And you also mentioned redemption, and I think redemption is

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Speaker 1: such a beautiful thing. I love a story of redemption,

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Speaker 1: like someone that's been at rock bottom and then finds

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Speaker 1: their way out of it. I find it quite inspiring.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's also I imagine Gary has so

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Speaker 2: much impact that coming from you, because if a lot

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Speaker 2: of people say myself, like a female journalist, if I

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Speaker 2: was talking about redemption and rehabilitation, people might go, oh,

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Speaker 2: here we go a bleeding heart. Although actually I did

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Speaker 2: study law for a while because I wanted to be

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Speaker 2: a criminal prosecutor. That was career plan B. Maybe I

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Speaker 2: should have followed that little safer than media. But I digress.

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Speaker 2: But as I say that, it is easy to sort

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Speaker 2: of dismiss these conversations about redemption. As you know, bleeding heart,

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Speaker 2: I'll get over it, but from you, it is unexpected.

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Speaker 2: And I think also does really have such cut through

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Speaker 2: given the work that you've done and what you've seen

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Speaker 2: throughout the course of your career.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it helps. And someone Ken marslu his son was

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Speaker 1: murdered over twenty years ago, shot during the armed robbery

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Speaker 1: and killed and his son was only eighteen nineteen working

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Speaker 1: his way with the pizza prou Uni and I got

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Speaker 1: to I knew of Ken when I was in the police,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't work his son's case. But we met

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Speaker 1: up after I left the police, and I was sort

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Speaker 1: of overwhelmed with a lot of things that were going

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Speaker 1: on in my life. And yeah, it was almost imposter syndrome.

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Speaker 1: I've gone from policing then I'm working in the media

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Speaker 1: and all that. And he said, you have got an

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Speaker 1: important platform because of who you are and what you've

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Speaker 1: done and take getting back to the point that you raised,

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Speaker 1: I think that's where it does carry some weight in

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Speaker 1: that I'm not looked at as a bleeding heart. So

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Speaker 1: if I'm saying, hey, maybe we could do things a

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Speaker 1: little bit differently, people do they can't just write me

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Speaker 1: off as a do gooder, and they actually listen. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's the people on the other side of

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Speaker 1: the law, like the people that have been in trouble

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Speaker 1: with the law. I think they start to see what

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Speaker 1: I can deliver to that I'll actually listen to them,

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Speaker 1: get to know them, and then you know if there's

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Speaker 1: a reason why they've committed a crime or how we

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Speaker 1: could change that. I think that's making a big difference

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Speaker 1: in the world of crime. So that's where I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm still doing something that I'm passionate about, because

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Speaker 1: I'm not very good at doing stuff. If I'm not

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Speaker 1: passionate about it, I can fake it, but I don't

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Speaker 1: make it. But if I'm really driven by something, I

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Speaker 1: can frame myself in one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: I would imagine a few people have asked you over

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Speaker 2: the past five years about what skills you drew upon

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Speaker 2: or what you had to learn about a career pivot.

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Speaker 2: But I I think the word empathy, which is clearly

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Speaker 2: a word that is important to you and resonates. I

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Speaker 2: think that's a really critical component of being a journalist

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Speaker 2: or a storyteller or an interviewer. And I think It's

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Speaker 2: something that clearly permeates your work on I Catch Killers

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Speaker 2: and in your other work and your books. So that

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Speaker 2: I think is a very underrated character reistic as a journalist.

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Speaker 2: I would imagine it probably was in the police force

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: I had a lot of success in some investigations because

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Speaker 1: I would like, whether it's criminal informants, witnesses or whatever,

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Speaker 1: I'd give a little bit of myself. I was all in,

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Speaker 1: so it wasn't me just asking questions with no emotion.

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Speaker 1: I'd be sitting there, I'd be living the emotion with them.

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Speaker 1: If I've got an informant. Some of the organized crime

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Speaker 1: jobs I know we're talking about, we're rolling the dice

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Speaker 1: with your life, Like if they're going to give up

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Speaker 1: these people, they will be killed if they find out.

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Speaker 1: So there's a genuineness to it. You can't fake it.

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Speaker 1: And I think one thing in policing, especially at the

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Speaker 1: sharp end like homicide investigation, people are attuned. They're hyper

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Speaker 1: alert on your emotions. If you're faking it, if you're

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Speaker 1: sitting there and you're taking a statement you're not really interested,

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Speaker 1: people get it and they shut up. So I learned

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Speaker 1: that skill, and I think that was transferable into my

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Speaker 1: redirecting my energies into the media. But when policing was

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Speaker 1: taken away from me, that was a hard, hard point.

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Speaker 1: I had to basically pick myself up and go because

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Speaker 1: you know, it was front page paper and Painter is

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Speaker 1: a corrupt cop. And I think I've talked about it enough,

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Speaker 1: but recording conversations on the telephone. I'm not ashamed of

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Speaker 1: what I did, but it was confronting. The passion I

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Speaker 1: had for policing was literally taken away from me overnight.

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Speaker 1: So when I try to explain that to people, think

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Speaker 1: of the thing you're most passionate about in life, and

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Speaker 1: then one day, in an instant, it's taken away and

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Speaker 1: you're not allowed to do it. Do it anymore. Because

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Speaker 1: that's what I went through. So I felt sorry for

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Speaker 1: myself and I had on the lounge and I think

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Speaker 1: it got to the point where and this is sort

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Speaker 1: of over a couple of weeks, months and different things

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Speaker 1: sitting there and I'm just sitting on the lounge eleven

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Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. I hadn't trained, and normally I

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Speaker 1: would train every day, and I just basically had to

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Speaker 1: give myself an upper cut and get up stupid and

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Speaker 1: the thing that may evated me. I've seen you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm crying poor, Well, what's happened to me? I lost

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Speaker 1: a job, but I've got opportunity, so it wasn't that bad.

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Speaker 1: So it sort of picked myself up and got on

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Speaker 1: with things.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you, Gary a little bit about

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Speaker 2: the true crime genre and how you feel about it

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Speaker 2: as somebody that unlike a lot of other people internationally

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Speaker 2: as well, it's a huge genre who have become really

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Speaker 2: well known content creators to use the current vernacular in

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Speaker 2: the space, there is obviously a high risk of exploitation.

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Speaker 2: In fact, there is not just a high risk of exploitation,

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Speaker 2: we see blatant exploitation of victim stories. This year will

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Speaker 2: mark ten years since the release of Making a Murderer

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Speaker 2: on Netflix. It was a massive hit at the time.

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Speaker 2: For me, it just felt that the female victim of

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Speaker 2: that homicide was completely relegated to a footnote. And then

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Speaker 2: obviously we've seen some other true crime work where the

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Speaker 2: reverse has happened. I mean, I think the Teacher's Pet

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Speaker 2: is an example where absolutely like a female victim who

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Speaker 2: had been forgotten and justice had never been achieved, but

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Speaker 2: because of your lifelong work with victims, your advocacy, your

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Speaker 2: actual cold hard record in you have, as the title says,

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Speaker 2: I catch killers and people have you know, justice has

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Speaker 2: been achieved because of work done by you and your team.

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Speaker 2: How does that sit with you? Do you agree that

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Speaker 2: there is some exploitation? Where do you draw the line?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? A good question because that was part of what

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Speaker 1: I struggled with when I first signed up. And you know,

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Speaker 1: when I left the police, I was offered a lot

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Speaker 1: of different opportunities, and some of it I would have

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Speaker 1: considered glorifying crime. What are we trying to achieve with this?

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Speaker 1: Are we recreating the crime that's already been solved? What's

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Speaker 1: it about? So I was very wary of that because

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Speaker 1: I would have felt like a hypocrite, given that I've

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Speaker 1: dedicated my career to you know, I believe looking after

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Speaker 1: victims and the interests of victims. To exploit that situation,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a fine line. And that's when I

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Speaker 1: talk about the way I Catch Killers podcast. I give

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Speaker 1: everyone the platform, so I'm not telling the listener what

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Speaker 1: view they should take, but allowing them to understand it,

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Speaker 1: not glorifying the crime. Understanding the ramifications the impact that

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Speaker 1: has on people. I think that gets lost and I

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Speaker 1: sometimes the true crime podcast just get polished up, and

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Speaker 1: to me, that's not what crimes about. People find it

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Speaker 1: interesting when I'm sitting down speaking to victims of crime,

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Speaker 1: and it could be in the most horrend the situations

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Speaker 1: where they've lost family members, multiple family members or things

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Speaker 1: like that, and they hear me laughing and laughing with

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Speaker 1: the people I'm speaking with. That's how you handle the emotion.

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Speaker 1: It's not disrespectful to the victims. It's a fact that

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Speaker 1: it's a fact of life. That's the way that people

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Speaker 1: have got to get through. So quite often I'll have

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Speaker 1: victims of crime on there, but they still find joy.

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Speaker 1: But that's about surviving. That's about surviving crime. Some of

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Speaker 1: the podcasts and I don't want to be critical of

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Speaker 1: the podcast because they bring in other types of podcasts,

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Speaker 1: because they bring in a level of difference that I

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Speaker 1: don't have. But that's what I'm proud of with By

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Speaker 1: Catch Killers is that I never forget where I've come

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Speaker 1: from and I never forget the impact. And so people

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Speaker 1: have got a story and they're allowed to tell the story.

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Speaker 1: But the interest You've said about who's the listeners on

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Speaker 1: true crime podcasts, like why women are interested? I get

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Speaker 1: to asked that question a lot. I've heard other people

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Speaker 1: answer the question. Some people say, and I'm making a

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Speaker 1: general comment, but women think they can change people, which

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Speaker 1: I hadn't heard that. That wasn't my comment. But women

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Speaker 1: listen and think, Okay, well, if someone's gone off track,

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Speaker 1: maybe they needed this, maybe they needed that. I think

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Speaker 1: it comes down to this is my take on it.

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Speaker 1: The world of crime is fascinating because we always want

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Speaker 1: to see what's behind the curtain, and with true crime

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Speaker 1: podcasts you get to see we like to might come

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Speaker 1: from a kid, like a scary movie or whatever. In

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Speaker 1: the early days. We want to find out, you know,

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Speaker 1: we want to be shocked, and it just makes what

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Speaker 1: can be a fairly normal life a little bit more interesting.

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Speaker 1: But I think the thing that really kicks in and

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Speaker 1: I think if we're all on us, we've gott to

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Speaker 1: put our hands up to it. We all think we're detectives,

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Speaker 1: we've got an inquiry in mind, and everyone thinks, give

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Speaker 1: me the facts als of it. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: just human nature. I think it's funny. I've been I've

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Speaker 1: now been out of the business. I'm one of those

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Speaker 1: chair critics that I think this person's done it or

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Speaker 1: that person. But I think that's in our nature. We're

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Speaker 1: curious and we want to solve things, so I think

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Speaker 1: that sort of buys into it. But also that side

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Speaker 1: of life that people generally don't get to see, but

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Speaker 1: they can have a look without any danger associated with it,

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Speaker 1: So I think that's where the interest comes.

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Speaker 2: And coming up Gary on meditation, yoga and the importance

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Speaker 2: of a calm mind. Obviously mentioned earlier, the circumstances in

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Speaker 2: which he left the force, and obously I think it

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Speaker 2: was the William Terrell investigation. Of course when he disappeared

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Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen that really obviously catapulted you, for better

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Speaker 2: or worse at the time, into being a really household name.

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Speaker 2: But before that, of course, there had been Underbelly Badness,

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Speaker 2: which was the fifth series of the famous Underbelly franchise

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Speaker 2: on nine and the series aired in twenty twelve, where

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Speaker 2: a character based on You was played by Matt Nabel.

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Speaker 2: Whether it was that or before that, you obviously were

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Speaker 2: a lot more high profile than the average homicide detective.

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Speaker 2: Even before the William Terrell case, When did you first

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Speaker 2: become aware of the moment that you were starting to

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Speaker 2: lose your anonymity.

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Speaker 1: I think within the organization, earlier public a little bit

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Speaker 1: later at the stage of the Underbelly series. I've been

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Speaker 1: doing homicide investigation for a very long time, and that

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Speaker 1: was the first time a serving police officer has been

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Speaker 1: portrayed as a serving police officer. So it was there

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Speaker 1: was no hiding. That was me and I remember speaking

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Speaker 1: to the police media unit who gave the approval for

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Speaker 1: it to go through because it was a positive representation

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Speaker 1: of police. And I'm proud of that investigation that we

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Speaker 1: did as a team, not just myself. It was a

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Speaker 1: team effort. But that changed the landscape for me. What

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Speaker 1: I found within my own organization there was some resentment,

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Speaker 1: resentment from people about was he getting recognition The people

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Speaker 1: that I respect, the ones that I respected as detectives,

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Speaker 1: they were approach and go good on you, because they

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Speaker 1: work just as hard, if not harder, than I did.

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Speaker 1: And they realized it was just by fate that they've

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Speaker 1: picked up on that investigation. I could use it in

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Speaker 1: my favor, and it was also detrimental in a way

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Speaker 1: if I got in the witness box at court. The

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Speaker 1: barristers like I was in the witness box all the

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Speaker 1: time at murder trials. The barristers wanted to beat up

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Speaker 1: on the that's that Gary Jubilan character from Underbelly. So

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Speaker 1: that sort of worked against me my own organization. I

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Speaker 1: think they became wary of me. They couldn't understand where

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Speaker 1: I was coming from. My passion was doing the work.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to climb the promotional ladder. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: interested in that. I found that further up you went

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Speaker 1: more boring. It got tied. As a chief inspector, I

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Speaker 1: could use it in my favor with the crooks, like

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Speaker 1: if I knock on the door and they answered the door,

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Speaker 1: oh shit, that's that dude, the dude from Underbelly, and

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Speaker 1: they know it's serious. So it could work work in

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Speaker 1: my favor. But that gave me the sort of public profile.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of other ones, and there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of jobs that I did that didn't attract public attention,

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Speaker 1: but just a few of the high profile ones. But

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Speaker 1: bearing in mind, I was in homicide for over twenty

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Speaker 1: years or twenty five years. I was investigating homicide, so

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Speaker 1: people become aware of who you are.

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Speaker 2: And then, as you say, there was a little bit

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Speaker 2: of resentment. There were things that worked in your favor,

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Speaker 2: but I suppose it's made you a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a target in some ways. Was that then what you

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Speaker 2: think maybe came to a head with the Tyrill investigation.

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Speaker 2: Do you think if you hadn't had that high profile

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Speaker 2: that because we know sometimes when people have got scores

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Speaker 2: to settle for whatever reason, whether it's jealousy or other

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Speaker 2: things that I mean, I could speculate about that. You

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Speaker 2: then as soon as people think, well, here's here's the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to bring this person down, do you feel that

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Speaker 2: was probably maybe, looking back, pave the way.

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Speaker 1: I think it was. And I say this, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not choosing in words, because I mean, I think there

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Speaker 1: were some very narrow people that wanted to bring me

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Speaker 1: down and spiteful, spitefully in the way that it all

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Speaker 1: played out with me. But when it all blew up,

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Speaker 1: and it blew up and it was leaked to the

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Speaker 1: media recording a conversation on my telephone, still shake my

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Speaker 1: head at that. Given the fact that we had listening

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Speaker 1: devices in the place approved by a Supreme Court judge

402
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Speaker 1: I could go on and on, but it bores people

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Speaker 1: and I understand understand that. But what gave me a

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Speaker 1: lot of strength was I got people from across the country,

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Speaker 1: detectives that are high profile detectives from across the country,

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Speaker 1: some of which I didn't even know, but they reached

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Speaker 1: out to me and said, we've been through this same process,

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Speaker 1: the same thing. You know, we got a reputation and

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Speaker 1: the organization turns on you like that. It was annoying,

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Speaker 1: It was frustrating the impact that have on the wiim

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Speaker 1: Tural matter. I think was devastating. There are other investigations

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Speaker 1: that I was working on that I just had to well,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't allowed to work on them anymore. So that

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Speaker 1: hurt me more than losing my career. The fact that

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Speaker 1: I'd made the commitment to William Tyrell's Families, foster and biological,

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Speaker 1: I'd do everything humanly possible and other investigations that was

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Speaker 1: all taken away. And so it was hurtful. But a

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Speaker 1: good friend of mine and I had a lot of

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Speaker 1: good people reach out to me, and one bit of

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Speaker 1: advice I've got was, you know, you can take opportunity here.

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Speaker 1: You can even embrace You've got a whole world open

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Speaker 1: to you now and embrace it, or you could wallow

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Speaker 1: in yourself pity, but you'll get one time wallowing in

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Speaker 1: yourself pity and everyone going, Okay, we've heard that before.

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Speaker 1: Nick Caldos, a deputy commissioner he left the police before me.

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Speaker 1: He reached out and said, Gary, you will see the

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Speaker 1: world is so much bigger outside the police. You think

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Speaker 1: the police is a big world, but you're very insular

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Speaker 1: in the way that you think, like who's going to

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Speaker 1: be the next commissioner and all that. When it's all

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Speaker 1: said and done, who cares other than people within the police.

432
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 1: He said, wait till you see the world world outside,

433
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 1: and he said, you know, there's so much on offer

434
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: outside there. And I found that. Yeah.

435
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 2: They were very accurate words, weren't they. And I think

436
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 2: a great message also for people to hear at any time,

437
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 2: but especially this time of year, where people are reflecting

438
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: on the year that was and then the year that's ahead.

439
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 2: And if people listening are working through anything, or they

440
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,360
Speaker 2: feel that they've got unfinished business or where I am

441
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: right now, there's no way of getting through this. I

442
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: think these stories of resilient and of thinking, oh, it's

443
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: never going to be better than what I had before,

444
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: But you're living proof that even though you don't know

445
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 2: it at the time, even the hardest moments can be

446
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: the start of a whole new chapter.

447
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: I think that has opened up so many different things

448
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: in my life. And I know I wouldn't have been

449
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: able to walk away from the police. I was too

450
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 1: passionate about it, so I would have stayed there till

451
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: the day I died, I think, and that would have

452
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: been there one more case, one more case. So this

453
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: was a chance to reset and rethink the way I

454
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 1: approach approach, approach things, and it was good for me.

455
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: It was a wake up call for me and I

456
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: had to I'm proud of the fact I sit here,

457
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 1: proud of the fact that I always thought I love

458
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: being in the police, but I didn't need to be

459
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: in the police. And I think there's people that hide

460
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: behind the fact that they've got power with a badge

461
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: and the authority that comes with the police. I was

462
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 1: never beholding to the police. I did it because I

463
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: loved it. I knew I could make a life for

464
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: myself out soide police, But policing is what I chose

465
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: to do as my vacation and my passion. I'm proud

466
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: of the fact that I've had to put it to

467
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: the test and Okay, take my gun, take my badge,

468
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: take my power to take everything away from me. And look,

469
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: I'm still standing. I'm still surviving and quite enjoying myself

470
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: and coming into the media. I'm always one that believes

471
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: you've got to pay your dues, and it was confronting

472
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: that I still to this day, five years down the

473
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: track and I've managed to carve out a career in

474
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: the media, I've still got that imposter syndrome feeling about me,

475
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: going what am I doing here? Like I think the

476
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: first article I wrote for the paper was on the

477
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 1: front page, Like how terrifying. I wish I paid more attention.

478
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not like getting it as a cadet.

479
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: I'm thinking I haven't paid my dues so I had

480
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: the last five years. I've worked very hard. But that's me,

481
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: just something that's instilled in me. Pay your dues to

482
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: get where you are. And I'm always with the podcast

483
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: You're only as good as your last podcast. And a

484
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: fear of failure I saw to carry with me and

485
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: my father installed that in me. I've tried to install

486
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: in my kids enjoy the success rather than fear the failure.

487
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: But I've always been one of the fear of the failure.

488
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: So that's why I sort of keep pushing and pushing.

489
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: Did you have that ever feeling of being an impost

490
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 2: when you were in the force.

491
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: There was policing and myself felt like a glove From

492
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: the day I walked into the academy, I thought, Yep,

493
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: this is what I'm meant to do. I was aimless.

494
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 1: I was working in the building industry. I didn't have

495
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: much direction. There's a lot of people you don't find

496
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: you true passion. Early when I got into policing, just yeah,

497
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: I can do this. I'm working with people all the

498
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: skills that I had come into play with in the police.

499
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: And then there was a period in time when I

500
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: became a homicide detective and I strived for that and

501
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 1: I was so excited when I'm actually a homicide detective

502
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: working cases and then leading cases. And then it got

503
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: to a point where I looked around and thought, I

504
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,239
Speaker 1: am the most ex experient's homicide detective. There there's no

505
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: one else I can confer with. And I say that

506
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: there their peers that I would consult with on difficult cases.

507
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: But that was fairly confronting when you sort of look

508
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: around and go, okay, well, if this murder happens, who's

509
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: going to do it? And I remember saying and someone

510
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: thought I was a bit cocky and arrogant. That someone

511
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: was saying a boss. I didn't quite agree with what

512
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: she was saying. And she was talking about the importance

513
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: of career development and working your way up the career ladder,

514
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: and I said, you know what my dream is is

515
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: if you're interested, because you've told me what your dream

516
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: is and what you want to achieve, and it's climbing

517
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: up the corporate ladder. Within the police, I want to

518
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: be if the Prime Minister gets murdered, I want to

519
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: be the person they call to investigate the prime minister

520
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: being murdered. That is that's where my expertise is. So

521
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: that's the one thing that I'm confident in saying that

522
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 1: I was good at in life, and I'd fail at

523
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: more things, not successful at homicide investigation. That just saw

524
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: of worked for me. I understood the science behind that,

525
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: the psychology behind it, and the passion that you needed

526
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: to investigate homicide.

527
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: Well before then we move on to a different topic.

528
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: Just wanted to ask then about the William Tyrell investigation

529
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 2: and his disappearance, because, as you said, Gary, that was

530
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: something that felt like unfinished business to you and that

531
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: you had made promises or felt a responsibility to his family,

532
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: both his foster family and his biological family. Last year

533
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: was ten years since his disappearance. The matter has been

534
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: back before the courts. There's a podcast that's also part

535
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: of my team. Producer at Fabulous Dan Box, Anina Young,

536
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: and news dot com dot are you witness William Tyrel?

537
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: Where are you in terms of being reconciled with the case,

538
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: Do you think that there will ever be close there?

539
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: And how are you feeling about your connection with that

540
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: and the family at this point in your life and career.

541
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: It's a difficult one for me. There's not a day

542
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: that goes by where someone doesn't speak to me about

543
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: the wim tural matter, or I'm not thinking about the

544
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: wim tural matter. I think it's disgraceful the way it's

545
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: playing out at the moment. I am as confused. I've

546
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: been off it now for five coming on six years.

547
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,239
Speaker 1: I think I'm as confused as a public as the

548
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: information that's got out, not just blaming the police, media

549
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: or reported on things that I know are not not correct,

550
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: and everyone's got an opinion what I think in terms

551
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: of closure, I think there really needs and I've said

552
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: this and I'll say it again, I think there needs

553
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: to be some form of inquiry what's happened with that investigation.

554
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: I'm not seeing things come out at the inquest that

555
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: I thought irrelevant. I led that investigation for four years,

556
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: documented all decisions I made and the directions the investigation

557
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: was headed in and I am quite confused the way

558
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: it's played out and publicly how the foster mother has

559
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: been nominated as a person of interest. I make this

560
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: point when I took the investigation over five months after

561
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: William's disappearance. In the handover from Detective Chief Inspector hands Rupp,

562
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: who was running the investigation to start with, he told

563
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: told in the hand up that the family have been eliminated.

564
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: When I was running the investigation, I had another look

565
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: at the family. There was a member of the strikeforce

566
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: that wanted to explore some aspects of it very vigorously.

567
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: Had a look at the family again overt and covert

568
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: investigative techniques. I came away from that very confident that

569
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: the foster mother and foster father for that matter, had

570
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: no knowledge or involvement in William's disappearance. The foster mother

571
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: gave evidence in support of me at my hearing and

572
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: was also critical of senior police, and these are just

573
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: the facts and the timing of it. Then she becomes

574
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: a person of interest after she's criticized senior Police, and

575
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: that's been leaked to the media, and it's been leaked

576
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: to the media. The brief of evidence was sent to

577
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: the DPP. I think that was eighteen months ago. There's

578
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: no decision that's come back. Something about this just does

579
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: not feel right. And I am still passionate about the

580
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: William Tyrel matter. I can't let it go. I won't

581
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: let it go. And it's not me losing perspective and

582
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: it's not me trying to justify my position. I think we,

583
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: and I'm still including myself as a police officer in

584
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: this term, should be judged on the way that investigation

585
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: has been handled. And I don't know how the public

586
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: could possibly have confidence in what's going on. There seems

587
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: to be there was a cranial in question. When we

588
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: we've heard for eighteen months and we've heard the Commissioner

589
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: of Police saying there's only one suspect pointing the finger

590
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: at the foster mother and there's no evidence to support that.

591
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: You can't make allegations allegations like that. I've been criticized

592
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: about things in the William Teral matter, and I'm caught

593
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: up in the internal conflict, which is disappointing. So I'm

594
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: not stepping away saying I'm innocent, but I'd just like

595
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: the full facts to come out, and I know with

596
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: the witness William Yrrell podcast, I know the effort that

597
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: Dan's put into that, and I'm hoping that gives a

598
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: public a clearer understanding of what is the information out there,

599
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: because I think they'd be shocked if they fully understood

600
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: what's going on with this investigation. So, in light of

601
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: my very lengthy answer, clearly I haven't haven't given up,

602
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: and the thing that we should all be hang on

603
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: to the fact a young child has disappeared. That shouldn't

604
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: get lost in all the politics and all the infighting

605
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: and all that we all should be working in the

606
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: same direction to bring some closure and that therein lies

607
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: my frustration. Have not even been able to do a handover, Like,

608
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: how can you take someone off an investigation working on

609
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: for four years without a handover? And it wasn't me

610
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: spitting the dummy saying no, I don't want to I'm

611
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: not going to speak to you because you've been horrible

612
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: to me. I'm saying I will help in any way

613
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: I can. I turned up at the inquest in my suit,

614
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: ready to give evidence. How can you have an inquest

615
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: without hands Rup hasn't been called as a witness. He

616
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: ran the investigation for five months. I haven't been called

617
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: as a witness. I ran the investigation for four years.

618
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: And Dave Laidlaw, who's run the investigation for six years,

619
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: hasn't been called as a witness. I haven't seen anything

620
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: like it.

621
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: It's so frustrating. I can only imagine the frustration for

622
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: you and for everyone in William's life life. Because time

623
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: also we know if anything, even going back to armchair detectives,

624
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: we know that when time is of the essence, when

625
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 2: time gets squandered on these sort of petty politics or

626
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: maybe red herrings, we've seen this even in fairly recent cases.

627
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 2: I would argue that Maddie McCann case was a case

628
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 2: in point. You don't get that time back.

629
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: You don't get that time back, and the focus should

630
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: be on finding out finding out what happened. And in

631
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: saying this, if there is an inquiry, if I have

632
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: not done something right or whatever, I'm happy for the

633
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: criticism because we've got to improve. We've got to be

634
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: judged by that. So I think we all should go

635
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: to the table with that form of can we have

636
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: done this better? Should have we done this better? And

637
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: it's just sad all around that it breaks my heart

638
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: and the impact it's had on the foster parents. And

639
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: I say this, the people that have pointed the finger

640
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: at the foster mother if they find if they found

641
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: out that that's not not correct, I don't know how

642
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: they can sleep at night with themselves because they have

643
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: destroyed a person's life. And yeah, and I've been criticized

644
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: of it, there was criticism of things I did. I

645
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: still stand by what I did. The courts have criticized me.

646
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 1: I've got to accept the accept the findings of the court.

647
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: But I also believe the courts are only as good

648
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: as the information that's been provided to them. So there's

649
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: so much damage, so many lives have been impacted upon,

650
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: and yeah, we've got to got to find finances. But

651
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: coming back to Willims disappeared and then the lives that

652
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: have been destroyed around will and whether it's a biological

653
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: family or the foster foster family, but it's just to me,

654
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: it seems like an ongoing nightmare for them.

655
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that ripple effect, we talked about it, it's most

656
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 2: absolute heartbreaking and devastating. Gary, big big segue here, big

657
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 2: gears change. Coming into final few questions, workplace stress. I

658
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 2: imagine everything that we've just talked about you would have

659
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 2: had experience of workplace stress in a very unique and

660
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: acute way. Which brings me to what I teased at

661
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: the start of our conversation about your long term interest

662
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: in what we now call wellness and wellbeing real buzzwords

663
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: of the last few years. And I mean that in

664
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: a good way actually, So as I say it's a

665
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 2: little bit unexpected, some people might think that Gary Jubilan

666
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: is you know, I've brought him on to talk a

667
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 2: little bit about wellness among other things. But your producer

668
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 2: Emily told us that you've been meditating for decades. Now,

669
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: When did that start?

670
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: It started in my twenties, early twenties. I was very

671
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: much in the fitness when I joined the police. A

672
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: lot before that, I was active, active as a kid,

673
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: teenager and playing playing sport. But then I got into training,

674
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: got into martial arts, super fit. But I would get sick.

675
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: If I walked past someone with a cold, I'd get

676
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: I'd get sick, and so I spake. I was training

677
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: in kung fu and kickboxing, and I spoke to a

678
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: sifu and some of the instructors and said, you're concentrating

679
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: too much on the hard training. You need to do

680
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: some soft training. So hard training being the hard physical sweating, exhaustion,

681
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: soft training being the meditation. Chigong was a practice I

682
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: first got into, which is like I think tai chi,

683
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: it's like a moving form of meditation. Because I could

684
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: see them doing things physically that I couldn't, I'm thinking,

685
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 1: I want a piece of it. I want a piece

686
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: of that. So I got into got into chigung fairly early.

687
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: And I got to say, in chigong meditation yoga, you

688
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: can imagine the classes back back then. And I'd walk

689
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: in and what do you do I'm a cop, and

690
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,720
Speaker 1: everyone just look at me and go, this is weird police.

691
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: Within the police, I would I would talk about, yeah,

692
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: talk about yeah, I was boxing, I was kick boxing,

693
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: doing kung fur. But I also do this meditation and

694
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: we'd go away a lot in homicide, so yeah, people

695
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 1: that I work with sometimes would be sharing the room

696
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: and go, what the fuck are you doing if I

697
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: was sitting there cross legged or meditating. But I found that,

698
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: I found it. Really it's really beneficial for me. And

699
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: I've continued the practice all through my life. And it

700
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,919
Speaker 1: really I was fortunate enough. And I say fortunate enough

701
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: because I think I was lucky in regards or just

702
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: something that kept me on track. I didn't have time

703
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: off in the thirty four years I was in the police.

704
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: I always I could always maintaintain my health and the

705
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: stresses that you get from work, Like sometimes in homicide,

706
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,479
Speaker 1: I want to come out, I just want to jump

707
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: in a boxing ring and get kicking, kicked in the

708
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: head or punched in the head, and that settles me

709
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: down because you're only focusing on that, you're not stressed

710
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: about that. But other times you come home really hardwired.

711
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: You've been on a job that you might be up

712
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: for forty eight hours, you're barking out orders or things

713
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: are happening, You're making big decisions, and I realized that

714
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: I'm now the step with the rest of the world basically,

715
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: And what Chigool, meditation and yoga gave me is it

716
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: it was sort of something I can keep in my

717
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: back pocket that I could use whenever I knew where

718
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: I felt. I had to bring myself down, so I practice.

719
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: I got to one point where it became because I

720
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: get addicted to something, so it became I've got to

721
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: meditate in the night in the morning, and that became stressful, stupid.

722
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: It's all about feeling better. So I've done the practice

723
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: long enough to know I know when I need it.

724
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: And what I explained to people with meditation, some people

725
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: think you can just I can drag someone off the

726
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: street that's never meditated before and they can sit there

727
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: and just meditate. It's like me dragging you off the

728
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 1: street and telling you to run a marathon. You need

729
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: to practice and develop those skills. I've got those skills

730
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: and I can use it so I could maybe I

731
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: have a stressful interview here, I could walk out, go home,

732
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: and just calm my mind in ten to fifteen minutes

733
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: through meditation and movement. So I've had some interesting experiences

734
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: with it, like I've gone to yoga retreats through Indonesia

735
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: and over in Nepal and different different things like that,

736
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: and it's opened my mind up to a lot of

737
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: things and it takes me very much out of my

738
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: comfort zone and it's worked for me. Post Traumatic stress

739
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: is a big, big ticket item. A lot of people

740
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: talk about post traumatic stress. When I left the police

741
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: people and they weren't. They were trying to do the

742
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: right thing by me. They're going, Gary, you've been doing

743
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: homicide for twenty years, you're stress, You're running all these jobs.

744
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: You know, go off sick and I've gone. But I'm

745
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 1: not sick. I am not not sick, but you could

746
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: be because of this and that. What I think has

747
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: helped me all the way through through my career is

748
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 1: the soft training, the hard training. But I do train.

749
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: I train every day. If I don't train, I'm out

750
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: of whack. I was going to say I'm not a

751
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: good person, which is probably true, but I just feel

752
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: out of whack. So I make a habit of it.

753
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 1: And when I'm at my most stressed. If I train

754
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: and get myself into pointed in the right direction, it's

755
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 1: so beneficial. So when I go through and we all

756
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: go through stresses in life, that's and you know, on

757
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 1: the podcast, I get to see people who have gone

758
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: through the most enormous stress situations. But I feel like

759
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: I've got an advantage on people because I know what

760
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: to do to bring myself self down and it's helped

761
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: me time and time again. Certainly, when my police career

762
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: came to an end, I didn't have employment straight away.

763
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: I was used to talking to one hundred people a day.

764
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: That was basically cut off. I allowed to talk to

765
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: any police basically sitting at home and I was struggling.

766
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: But then after the wake up call where I sort

767
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: of slapped myself across the face, get up and train,

768
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: And so I just trained harder and harder and got

769
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: myself fit and ready to take on the world again.

770
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: I would do that in the cops as well. Sometimes

771
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: if I knew a big job was coming up, I

772
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: would be training really hard in knowing I need to

773
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: be sharp, I need to be ready, and healthy mind.

774
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: Healthy body leads to a healthy mind. I honestly believe,

775
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: because I couldn't understand with the siffers that I trained under,

776
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: all the different masters I trained under, I've gone a

777
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: sort of counterintuitive We're beating the crap out of each

778
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: other here, and then we're sitting there not singing Kumbai Aar,

779
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: but sitting there chanting or whatever. And it was described

780
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: to me, and I think this is a simple way

781
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: of describing it is that if you've got if you're

782
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: not physical just the way you carry yourself, your shoulders,

783
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: you've got your blinkers on, so physically you're not walking

784
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: carrying yourself properly, that leads to your mental outlook. And

785
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: it made sense to me, like when I feel like

786
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: I'm fit and things are going well, I'm up, I'm

787
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: looking and my mind's open open to things. When I'm

788
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: not feeling the best, it's sort of my mind narrows down.

789
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: So I saw the balance there. But I've had some

790
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: interesting experiences, like I was doing going through a particularly

791
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 1: busy period at that homicide that was what the Underbelly

792
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: series was based on, and that was a couple of

793
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: years of chaos. And I went to a place in Chinatown,

794
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: choy Lee Foot and did chigong there and there's this

795
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: old Chinese master there and didn't speak a lot of English,

796
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: but I would walk into the chigung class and it

797
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: was a classic. It felt like you're in the back

798
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 1: streets of Hong Kong. You walk up behind the restaurant,

799
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: up the stairs and you go into the class and

800
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: he'd look at me and go, you took cranky, mister

801
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: policeman and slapped me on the face like that type

802
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 1: of thing. And then you're sitting there and you just

803
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: can't calm down. And it was so beneficial to me.

804
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 1: So and I am mindful of people that suffer post

805
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 1: traumatic stress, and I got a bit of an understanding

806
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: about it because it's great that you can learn from

807
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: your kids. My son is in the army and a

808
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: part of the he's also psychologist and part of his

809
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: PhD is post traumatic stress for the military. And I

810
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: often talk to him and he's early and his career

811
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 1: is starting out, but talk about the benefits of training,

812
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: and he sees that that's so so important. And everyone

813
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: that I see that's suffering from post traumatic stress and

814
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: I'm probably sympathying it too much, but you get a

815
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,720
Speaker 1: sense of achievement if you get up in the morning

816
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: and do something. I train every morning Johnny Lewis, this

817
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: is the boxing trainer. This is something that's beneficial from

818
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: the cops because the ovil is just near my place

819
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: where a train, So every morning five point thirty I

820
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: trained with him. I also think good health and mental

821
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: well being comes from being around having a tribe. And

822
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: I lost my tribe when I was cut off from

823
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: the police. That was my tribe. That was I'm a policeman.

824
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: You've been kicked out of your tribe. But with this

825
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: group earned a bunch of sort of all sorts that

826
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: turn up for boxing, so a whole cross section of community,

827
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: but there's a community feel. We have a bit of

828
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: a laugh, bit of a chat and talk and then

829
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: do the training and you walk away feeling good. So

830
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: I'm also mindful of the need to have that social outlook.

831
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: During COVID, which I hate to mention because I think

832
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 1: it was handled just appallingly. Never once did I hear

833
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: anyone talk about how about we all just try and

834
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: get a little bit fitter and get out and exercise.

835
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: During that I was living on my own and there

836
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: was times during those lockdowns basically six Yeah, what was

837
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 1: the longest one? Three months or whatever on your own.

838
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: And I'd get up in the morning and I say,

839
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: start talking to myself. I knew, yeah, I'm joking here,

840
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: But morning Gary, Morning Gary, what are we up to today? Gary?

841
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 1: Don't they Gary? Like I realized I was boring at

842
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: that point in time too, But as I could chat

843
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,919
Speaker 1: to me, but that I would just I would train.

844
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: That was my thing, my salvation, and exhaust yourself physically,

845
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: then you can concentrate on what else you have to

846
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: do for the day.

847
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 2: And you mentioned having this in your back pocket. I

848
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 2: mean these skills part of your toolkit, as you say,

849
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 2: whatever life throws at any of us, knowing that you've

850
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 2: got some strategies in place is so critical to getting

851
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: out of bed each day. So I guess my final

852
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: question then, Gary, you had a little bit of a

853
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: hack there that don't if you can't free your mind,

854
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 2: if you're not the word meditation, you know, strike sphere.

855
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: Oh no, I've got too much going on in my

856
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 2: head yoga? What is that I can't do any of

857
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 2: these things you said? It's not like you can't just

858
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: go in and do it any more than you would

859
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 2: do a half marathon. So what would some hacks be

860
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 2: for anyone listening that doesn't have this as part of

861
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: their tool.

862
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 1: Okay, I think it's a skill that's an acquired skill

863
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 1: that you need to build up. The other thing that

864
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: I see a lot of people fall by the wayside

865
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: is they don't buy into moderation. In that I see

866
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 1: some people that are clearly unfit and they'll come up

867
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: to me and go And this would happen during the

868
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: Cops because I'd train each day when I was in

869
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: the police at lunch time and they are I'm going

870
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 1: to get fit. I'm going to train and I'm thinking

871
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: we'll just work up a sweat just you don't have

872
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,959
Speaker 1: to set the world on fire. But they come in inspired. Well,

873
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: New Year's resolution is, I'm sure we've all done. I'm

874
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: going to get fit this year. Just build up in mentally,

875
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: don't take on the world. And the same with meditation.

876
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: You will get in there and the first time you're

877
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,479
Speaker 1: in there, you'll be looking around going what the hell

878
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,879
Speaker 1: is going on going on here? But gradually, gradually you learn.

879
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: And I talked to Goong. I also studied with a

880
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: CIFU over in Perth. I was spent a lot of

881
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: time living over in Perth at one stage, and such

882
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: a science. So the more I learned, the more I

883
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 1: realized I didn't know. So I take a little bit

884
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 1: away from everyone and what works for me. So I've

885
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: got a practice that works for me. So I just

886
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: tell people one step at the time. Don't think it's

887
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: going to be the fix everything, but it's something that

888
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: you can add. And what I describe because people go, well,

889
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: what happens when you meditate? What happens when you can

890
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: let yourself go? I liken it to this, and I

891
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: think we've all been in this position. You're lying on

892
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: the lounge on the say a Sunday afternoon, you're just

893
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: starting to fall asleep, and you know that really relaxed

894
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: moment that you've had a big no or whatever, really

895
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: relaxed moment and you're just drifting off. That's what I

896
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 1: find that I achieve with meditation. I'm holding that moment

897
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: and it's like watching the river. This is a good

898
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: way of describing it, because you've got your thoughts going

899
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: in your head, watching the river with things flowing down

900
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: me your thoughts. Just let them pass, just let them

901
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 1: go through. Just let them drift through your mind, because

902
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: we could be sitting here meditating and there could be

903
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: a car dipping the horn, because sometimes that's the environment

904
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,479
Speaker 1: you're meditating in. Just let it drift through. And these

905
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: I'm by no means an expert, but I've learnt by

906
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: experts and these are the sort of things that I've

907
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: taken away and it does work. I love that.

908
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 2: I love that idea of things drifting by us in

909
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: the river.

910
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to try that, try it, and you're just

911
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: you're watching the river, which is a peaceful thing, and

912
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: you just things drift through. You don't hold that thought,

913
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: you just let that pass pass through.

914
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: Gary, it has been so fascinating talking to you today.

915
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 2: I've gone way over time. I'm that I've already failed

916
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 2: on my first New Years resolution, which was, you know,

917
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: to try to keep conversations a bit short.

918
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: You weren't listening the moderation work.

919
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 2: I should I should have had somebody, you know, duller

920
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 2: on because this has been too interesting. But you, of

921
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 2: course can hear more from Gary on his podcast I

922
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 2: Catch Killers. We'll link to that in the show notes.

923
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 2: Gary Jubilin, thank you so much for your time today

924
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 2: and wish you all the best for a very happy

925
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five.

926
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: Well, thanks very much and thanks for having me on.

927
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: Then let's have a great year.

928
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely, if you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you're following

929
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 2: us because we'll be back with another exclusive guest on

930
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 2: Something to Talk About next week