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Speaker 1: It fits in with Kate podcast. Probably welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Educate podcast. Well, thank you so much. I'm getting the

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Speaker 1: thumbs up.

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Speaker 2: Thumb up.

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Speaker 1: It was a second attempt at the intro this morning.

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Speaker 1: Lizzie was going to inline, you know, she didn't, but understandably,

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Speaker 1: Lizzie is going to drive the podcast today because we

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Speaker 1: are back educating you, me, both, gus, all of us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: here with Lizzie and with Jess. And what are we

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Speaker 1: talking about today?

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Speaker 2: What we're going to talk about today is a topic

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Speaker 2: very close to my heart and I think it will

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Speaker 2: be to yours too.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, Kayla, we're back.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't know if it will be so much

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Speaker 2: for you, Jess, but we can all relate.

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Speaker 3: It's all.

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Speaker 2: We're all included here. So we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: eldest daughter syndrome. And so the article that I had

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Speaker 2: to look at is cleverly titled are you okay? Or

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Speaker 2: are you an eldest daughter? And I just was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm an eldest daughter and I'm not.

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Speaker 1: Okay, meaning yeah, you're not okay. If you're an eldest daughter,

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Speaker 1: you have you obviously have an older sister, though you do,

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Speaker 1: I do.

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Speaker 3: But I it's the middle in the middle, which I

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Speaker 3: think is quite obviously look at me.

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Speaker 1: Why has the eldest daughter syndrome or chat been floating

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Speaker 1: around a bit of late.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so someone, some person on Twitter or ex or

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Speaker 2: whatever we call it now, just tweeted are you happy?

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Speaker 2: Or are you the oldest sibling? And also a girl,

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Speaker 2: just some random girl on the Internet tweeted it, and

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Speaker 2: it went viral. It gathered over a million replies. It's

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Speaker 2: still going, people are still adding to the thread, and

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Speaker 2: so then it kind of became a discussion that then

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Speaker 2: psychologists were jumping in on, people were putting it in

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Speaker 2: articles and things like that.

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Speaker 1: It just got a life signed. Yeah, because even my

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Speaker 1: nine year old daughter, seriously, who is an only child,

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Speaker 1: who we laugh is the eldest, the middle child and

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Speaker 1: the young guys. But she in bed the other night,

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Speaker 1: she randomly, and I don't know if they were talking

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Speaker 1: about it at school in year four, she started asking

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Speaker 1: me how I felt being the oldest of the four

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Speaker 1: kids in my family, and then started talking about her dad,

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Speaker 1: who is the middle child of five boys, which comes

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Speaker 1: with its complexities as well. So it just feels like ye,

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Speaker 1: as far as waves of topics go where you sit

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Speaker 1: in a family hierarchy? Is this top of the list.

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Speaker 2: Yeah? And so actually that kind of that idea kind

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Speaker 2: of came around in the nineteen hundreds from an Austrian psychotherapist,

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Speaker 2: Alfred Adler, and he coined something called the birth order theory,

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Speaker 2: so that you know, proposing that the order in which

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Speaker 2: children are born has a profound impact on their personalities,

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Speaker 2: their mental health, everything as they grow up. So he thinks,

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Speaker 2: and we can go around and see if we relate.

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Speaker 2: So firstborn's Kate, you and I that we tend to

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Speaker 2: be neurotic, conservative, dutiful and anxious and perfectionists. Do you

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Speaker 2: feel like that relates?

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Speaker 1: I think I'm just trying to tick all of the

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Speaker 1: things have been diagnosed with.

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Speaker 3: You conservative, Well, I am maybe in your decision making.

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Speaker 3: Is that where it would be careful? Not in your politics, Lizzy,

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Speaker 3: I don't think.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm definitely conservative and dutiful kind of looking after

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Speaker 1: others and making sure that everything's okay. From Actually, it

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Speaker 1: must start when you're very young, because I know mum,

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Speaker 1: My mum always tells this story about when we were

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Speaker 1: very young and I would have only just been talking

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Speaker 1: and if my youngest sister, the sister under me and

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Speaker 1: my brother who were children two and three, they were

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Speaker 1: in bed and we had a visitor knock at the door.

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Speaker 1: I would go to the door as like the five

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Speaker 1: year old and say the kids are sleeping.

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Speaker 2: Oh.

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Speaker 1: And that's even as a kid, So even then, not

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Speaker 1: that mum and dad did anything differently, but being the

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Speaker 1: oldest of the kids in the house, there's something you're

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Speaker 1: throwing into that role, responsibility or something like, oh, there's

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Speaker 1: now there's a baby being born under me. I'm now

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Speaker 1: in mum's category.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And you know what's so interesting from a little

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Speaker 2: bit of digging, I did that this whole kind of

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Speaker 2: birth order thing, it actually all has a lot to

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Speaker 2: do with the pregnancy hormones when you're in your mother's

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Speaker 2: tummy and then it's called what's it called a drenal

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Speaker 2: puberty that you go through. So it's what happens when

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Speaker 2: your mum is pregnant, if she had a stressful pregnancy,

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Speaker 2: if she smoked, if she was using medications, alcohol, all

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, what their depression and anxiety were like.

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Speaker 2: And then they measure they measured those adrenal like cortisol

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Speaker 2: levels again when you're going through puberty, and it was

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Speaker 2: found that the eldest girls mature the fastest when their

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Speaker 2: mother's experienced higher levels of prenatal stress. So it all

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Speaker 2: kind of goes back to right when you're in the womb.

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Speaker 1: But I also, I truly believe that just as I thought,

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Speaker 1: we can blame them. Yeah, another reason to blame but

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Speaker 1: our mother.

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Speaker 2: So interesting, Like, you know, apart from all the science

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Speaker 2: of it, I do really think and as the Internet

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Speaker 2: seems to think. There's over seven point eight million videos

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Speaker 2: on this topic on TikTok alone. So many daughters, eldest

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Speaker 2: daughters are coming out and saying, you know, it's like

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Speaker 2: being in an unpaid internship for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 2: I have post traumatic eldest daughter disorder. Were you a

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Speaker 2: pleasure to have in class? Or were you just the

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Speaker 2: bossy eldsdorder with an undiagnosed anxiety disorder?

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Speaker 3: Well can you guys, well let me through because I've

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Speaker 3: got it in here. And this obviously doesn't really resonate

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Speaker 3: with me because I'm in the middle, like what is

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Speaker 3: the what's the struggle you're carrying?

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Speaker 1: Like, what is it? What do you maybe? Well, you

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Speaker 1: know what there are lots of wonderful things about being

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Speaker 1: the oldest sister as well. But I think that Oh no, no,

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Speaker 1: Lizzie's shaking her head.

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Speaker 3: See I'm an old sister. No, I love being an

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Speaker 3: older system more than I like being a younger sister.

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Speaker 1: To be honest, Oh do you interesting because people listen

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Speaker 1: to you more.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: I just feel like I can offer more to her

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Speaker 3: because I can teach her things that I've learnt or

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Speaker 3: things I've done, or guide her a little bit because

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Speaker 3: she's just a few years behind me. Yeah, Whereas with

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Speaker 3: my older sister, I'm like kind of thinking, Oh, I'm

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Speaker 3: kind of set. I don't really need that guidance from you,

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Speaker 3: yet I like to give it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I see what you mean. I think, Okay, this

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Speaker 1: is an example of the oldest child. Maybe you're the

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Speaker 1: oldest daughter. When I was younger, we would do Christmas

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Speaker 1: concerts at Christmas. Of course, we would use our dancing

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Speaker 1: costumes from the classes we did. We would and when

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Speaker 1: I say we, I mean I would organize the dancing

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Speaker 1: routine and everything in the backyard and we would perform.

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Speaker 1: Where I grew up in Campbelltown, with the side of

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Speaker 1: the firebro garage as our backdrop AWESO. And after a

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Speaker 1: couple of years, I'm like only eight, nine or ten.

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Speaker 1: After a couple of years, I realized that sometimes my

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Speaker 1: brothers and sisters, there were three of them, one brother,

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Speaker 1: two sisters, sometimes they wouldn't do exactly what I told

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Speaker 1: them to do, or would halfway through our rehearsal process

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Speaker 1: in the lead up to the performance, would decide that

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Speaker 1: they'd had enough. And so one year and then for

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Speaker 1: consecutive years after that, I thought, you know how I

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Speaker 1: get to get my you know, the younger sister at

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Speaker 1: this point, she's like two or something. Yeah, did what

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Speaker 1: I made them do? Before we started rehearsals and I

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Speaker 1: started choreographing the dancers, I made them sign contract.

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Speaker 2: No, this is classic eldest daughter vibe.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I will do. I think I'd started home and

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Speaker 1: away by then, so I knew what a contract was,

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Speaker 1: and it made me turn up to work. So if

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Speaker 1: my sister Rebecca was going to have a tantrum and

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Speaker 1: say you're being a bossy sister, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: do this anymore, I could say, well you signed to.

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Speaker 3: God, Well, too bad, and how many of your siblings

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Speaker 3: did you end up suing.

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Speaker 1: But that's that is a perfect example.

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Speaker 2: You couldn't be more perfect.

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Speaker 1: That's perfect.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that makes sense now the.

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Speaker 2: Fits and with a cake, WHICHI podcast. But if we

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Speaker 2: get a bit deep into it, you know, it all

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Speaker 2: goes back to, you know, patriarchal value. Like we're not

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Speaker 2: talking about oldest boys syndrome, are we, because as a girl,

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Speaker 2: you kind of the family. You know, there's another There

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Speaker 2: was another tweet that I saw that that said firstborn

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Speaker 2: daughters are the men of the household and no one

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Speaker 2: can convince me otherwise, And I think that's so true.

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Speaker 2: You get lent on so much, and I feel like

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Speaker 2: it's all done very subconsciously, like they just almost expect

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Speaker 2: you to take care of the younger sibling or you know,

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Speaker 2: you're the first one that goes You go through puberty first,

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Speaker 2: you go through everything first, and so you're held to

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Speaker 2: this sort of impossible standard. And being a girl is

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Speaker 2: hard enough, let alone a girl and an eldest daughter.

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Speaker 1: And what you realize is that being the eldest daughter

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Speaker 1: and going through things first, it's tough on you, but

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Speaker 1: it's also at that point it's tough for your parents

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Speaker 1: as well, because being the first child, they haven't done

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Speaker 1: it before either, so they might come down on you

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Speaker 1: in a more strict fashion. They might discipline you more

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Speaker 1: as the eldest child. And I think sometimes that's where

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Speaker 1: there's a bit of chat around the second child being

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Speaker 1: able to get away with a bit more, testing the

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Speaker 1: boundaries a bit more because the eldest child has paved

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Speaker 1: the way, and they the eldest child might like to

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Speaker 1: keep the peace the peace a little.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my sister and I are a classic example of this.

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Speaker 2: So it's just my sister and I. But I was

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Speaker 2: very anxious, very perfectionistic, always followed the rules, literally would

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Speaker 2: line up my toys like by my bed one by one.

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Speaker 2: That's probably, you know, another issue. But it was very

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Speaker 2: like neat tidy. And then my sister came along, died

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Speaker 2: a hair pink, got tattoos at sixteen. Like she's my

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Speaker 2: best friend and the best person in the world.

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Speaker 3: It's nice to see her out in silver water, rein

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Speaker 3: often but very different.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't be more different.

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Speaker 2: And as back to the Austrian psychotherapists, they actually say

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Speaker 2: so the middle child, which is what you are, yes

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Speaker 2: tell me, are competitive, rebellious and people pleasers because they're

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Speaker 2: often overlooked and have to fight for the attention of

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Speaker 2: their parents.

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Speaker 3: I must say in my family, I'm one hundred percent

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Speaker 3: the people pleaser because I'm in the middle. Really, I

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Speaker 3: feel like I bridged the gap between people. Not that

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Speaker 3: there's like huge marguments or anything, but I'm always the

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Speaker 3: first one to talk someone off a ledge, calm down,

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Speaker 3: saying that or why don't you do this? This and this,

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Speaker 3: And I just mediated I'm absolutely the mediator, which I

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Speaker 3: don't know it was as true growing up. You know,

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Speaker 3: three sisters two years apart each, lots of fighting in

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Speaker 3: that house. But like now as adults, I feel like

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Speaker 3: I'm very much like that, and you can understand different

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Speaker 3: types of people because of all the different players in

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Speaker 3: my family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's only over the last couple of years, going

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Speaker 1: back to what you were saying, before that, I looked

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Speaker 1: more into the state of your or how your time,

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Speaker 1: how your time in the jungle, know how your time

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Speaker 1: in the womb was, and how that does affect you.

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Speaker 1: So what you're and I guess in the past we've

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Speaker 1: always thought about things like and no judgment at all,

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Speaker 1: but you know, like how whether your mum was a

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Speaker 1: clean living mum, and how you know what you what

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Speaker 1: the mothers are putting into their body to kind of

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Speaker 1: create the child. But we didn't think much about the

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Speaker 1: emotional the emotional journey that a brother was going on.

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Speaker 1: And I even know with me, I am the eldest child.

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Speaker 1: But before I was born, my mother lost three children

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Speaker 1: before me, all boys. And so when now that I've

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Speaker 1: spoken to my mom a bit more about her journey

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Speaker 1: of pregnancy with me, is that and it makes complete

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Speaker 1: sense she you've lost three children, you're pregnant with another child.

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Speaker 1: You actually don't know if child number four is going

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Speaker 1: to be okay. So the nervous energy, the anxiety, the cortisol, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a I think there's there would be.

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Speaker 1: I know for me, if I'd been going through that,

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Speaker 1: I would have been incredibly panicked that the daughter that

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Speaker 1: arrived was going to be okay. And I guess so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it turned out it.

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Speaker 2: Happened to you.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, And these are the things that you only

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Speaker 1: start to understand a bit more the older you get.

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Speaker 1: I always knew that there were children that came before

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Speaker 1: I did, yeah, and that mum and dad both went

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Speaker 1: through that, but without having your own children or without

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Speaker 1: having life experience, you don't you don't really understand.

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Speaker 3: That's so interesting to say because we had Harry nine

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Speaker 3: months ago and before that, I never thought of my

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Speaker 3: parents as my parents when I was a baby, And

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Speaker 3: it wasn't until I was talking about having Harry and

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Speaker 3: he was like really little and mom said, oh, when

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Speaker 3: I used to feed you, I would just sit there

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Speaker 3: and look at you for hours. And I thought, I've

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Speaker 3: never thought of my mum like sitting there and feeding

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Speaker 3: me and that like thirty do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: But I'm like, that's what we do with our son.

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Speaker 3: So I'm like, she had so much love in that

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Speaker 3: moment for me, but you don't even think about it.

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Speaker 3: Just yeah, And like that's I think it comes back to,

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Speaker 3: like now still realizing parents have their own life.

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Speaker 1: Well, parents have human beings as are we, And I

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Speaker 1: just don't think you ever think of your parents' parents

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Speaker 1: life before you were born, like, oh, they actually did

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Speaker 1: all these things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And then now having a baby, I'm like, but

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Speaker 3: I have a life and I have a baby. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: so that's what my parents had. They had a life,

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Speaker 3: and they had it didn't involve you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't.

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Speaker 3: We didn't ever register that they weren't anything other than

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Speaker 3: just parents. So it's quite wanting to have the hindsight.

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Speaker 2: Now, none of us here are younger siblings, but for

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Speaker 2: anyone listening, who's the younger sibling?

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Speaker 1: Your goodness, don't leave them out? No god, oh, they'll

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Speaker 1: let you know about it.

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Speaker 2: They tend to be very creative, attention seeking, fiercely independent,

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Speaker 2: and a bit defiant, which I can safely say it

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Speaker 2: for my beautiful little sister. I love all those things

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Speaker 2: about her, but she is one hundred percent all of

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Speaker 2: those things defiant.

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Speaker 1: Is that a bit like kind of stomping the face?

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Speaker 2: She thinks I'm stubborn. I'm like, have you met yourself?

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Speaker 1: Mate? Okay, yeah, my.

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Speaker 3: Little sister's stubborn too. Yeah, my little sister.

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Speaker 1: I was telling with this the other day.

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Speaker 2: She's so friend she's so.

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Speaker 1: On the weekend, and I'm so has Kate, so we're

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Speaker 1: friends as well.

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Speaker 3: I was telling her that my little sisters like so

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Speaker 3: lovely and kind and friendly, but she just has a

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Speaker 3: social limit. So she'll go all right, I'm bored of this,

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Speaker 3: I'm going home, and she'll just leave a situation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you do you lies? I'm clear, Yeah, I guess so.

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Speaker 3: All right, guys taking a leap out of her book, Babe,

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Speaker 3: I am out of here.

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Speaker 1: I know I'm off to do something responsible. You often

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Speaker 1: make your siblings sign another contract that sits in.

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Speaker 2: Whipper with Kate Ritchie is a Nova.

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Speaker 3: Podcast walk great shows like this.

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Speaker 1: Download the Nova Player, find the app

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Speaker 3: Store or Google playing the Nova Player