WEBVTT - Bringing down a paedophile: Michelle Milthorpe Pt.2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective see a side of life the average person is

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<v Speaker 1>never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world. Michelle,

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back Part two. It's good to see you smile.

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<v Speaker 1>Like the subject we're talking about such a heavy, heavy subject.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think sometimes people are surprised with the name

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<v Speaker 1>of the guests that we come on here, that we

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<v Speaker 1>can still sit here and have a laugh. But you've

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<v Speaker 1>got to be able to laugh through situations like this

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<v Speaker 1>just to survive. Yeah, is that a fair.

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<v Speaker 2>Fairment of it? It is? And look, I think I

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<v Speaker 2>know I just have this determination that we know that

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<v Speaker 2>the nature of abuse is about power and the best

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<v Speaker 2>way to take someone's power back is to just be

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<v Speaker 2>indifferent to them and to live a good life. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>in spite of everything. And I just think that that's yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Try Well, in part one, we got a sense of

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<v Speaker 1>the impact on you and the shock of this situation

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<v Speaker 1>evolving where your daughter's come to you and reported that

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<v Speaker 1>she's been sexually abused and that's impacted on another daughter.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to talk about the court system, and in

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<v Speaker 1>our conversations we had the other day, I got the

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<v Speaker 1>sense called me very perceptive. I've got the sense there

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<v Speaker 1>was a certain amount of frustrations with the courts. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think you said something that that's not a justice sysm.

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<v Speaker 1>You've worked out courts and not justice system. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>legal system. I've heard too many victims of crime telling

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<v Speaker 1>me that exact thing, and I think I share that

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<v Speaker 1>share that view. But before we before we move in

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about the process, because it took two and

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<v Speaker 1>a half years for it to get to court, there

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<v Speaker 1>was something else in our conversation that we said that Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it impacted on me, just you telling me the story

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<v Speaker 1>and it was about. We clarified before the start of

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<v Speaker 1>the interview that your daughter's happy for us to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about it, but Pip, your daughter was so affected by it.

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<v Speaker 1>She's saying that she didn't want to live.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, And look, that was the first time she

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned that she was ten and she didn't just say

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to bear live anymore. She told me

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<v Speaker 2>how she wanted things to go. And you know, as

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<v Speaker 2>a as a teacher too, like that's one of the

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<v Speaker 2>first things when you have a kid, say something, you know, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>do you have a plan? And she did. She had

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<v Speaker 2>a plan and she was ten, and you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>impact on her mental health was significant, and you know

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<v Speaker 2>it was ongoing. So one of the things that she

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<v Speaker 2>found really difficult was that with counselors and things like that,

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<v Speaker 2>when you're waiting so long to go to court. The

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<v Speaker 2>Sexual Assault Services really about they're amazing counselors, but she

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<v Speaker 2>had four different ones in two and a half years.

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<v Speaker 2>So she was sick of people. She already had issues

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<v Speaker 2>with people leaving her because we'd had you know, Jen

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<v Speaker 2>had disappeared from her life, and then she had, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>these counselors who were meant to be helping her. She'd

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<v Speaker 2>develop her rapport with them and then they'd go into

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<v Speaker 2>something else, and you know, that's not their fault, that

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<v Speaker 2>is not their fault. But we just saw this really

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<v Speaker 2>steady decline in her mental health and how she was

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<v Speaker 2>and she was isolated from friends. You know, there was

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<v Speaker 2>so much going on for her. Yeah, so just before

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<v Speaker 2>we went to court in Sydney, so you know, two

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<v Speaker 2>and a half years later, it was probably about it

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<v Speaker 2>was the March I think was Easter weekend in twenty sixteen,

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<v Speaker 2>and she had been completely irrational at the shops. We

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<v Speaker 2>were at mum and Dad's place in Kutamundra. We've been

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<v Speaker 2>in the shops. She wanted to buy something that was

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<v Speaker 2>just probably what I referred to as happy meal, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>toys like rubbish, and I said no and she carried on.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just completely irrational for the situation anyway, I

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<v Speaker 2>knew were sort of on a backslide. So we we

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<v Speaker 2>were walking home and we stopped at a corner and

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<v Speaker 2>she just looked me doad in the iron and she said,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so She looked behind and then she looked me

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<v Speaker 2>down in the iron and said, I'm so sorry. Mum

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<v Speaker 2>and she went to run out and there was a

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<v Speaker 2>car coming around the corner and it was just like

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<v Speaker 2>she was in so much pain. It was just so

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<v Speaker 2>much pain. And there was part of me was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>why are we doing this, Like we shouldn't be putting

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<v Speaker 2>her through this, And then there was another part of

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<v Speaker 2>me that knew that her personality is that she would

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<v Speaker 2>go into that whole of you know, I didn't go

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<v Speaker 2>through with this, and that means that nothing happened and

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<v Speaker 2>nothing changed. And so it was this we were trying

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<v Speaker 2>to balance, you know, do we put our kids through

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<v Speaker 2>this court process or do we not never expecting it

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<v Speaker 2>to be what it was. You know, we had a

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<v Speaker 2>balcony when we were in Sydney, and she couldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>on that balcony like we weren't allowed to she couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be out of our sight. It was pretty Yeah, it

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<v Speaker 2>was pretty scary.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't even comprehend what you're going through as parents,

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<v Speaker 1>seeing that ten year old going through that type of

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<v Speaker 1>type of trauma.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and even the services you know, at that time,

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<v Speaker 2>so as I said, the Sexual Assault Service said this

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<v Speaker 2>is actually beyond descope like this is and I could

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<v Speaker 2>completely appreciate that I worked in well being, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was very prepared for them to say that. We went

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<v Speaker 2>to CAMS, which is the Child Adolescent Mental Health Mental

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<v Speaker 2>Health Service, and you know, here's this kid who's she

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<v Speaker 2>just turned eleven at that point, and she was going

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<v Speaker 2>to CAMS at the same time as there was a

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<v Speaker 2>drug and alcohol support group there. So she would turn

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<v Speaker 2>up in a room full of you know, all of

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<v Speaker 2>these people who were seeking support for an addiction. It

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<v Speaker 2>was just, yeah, it was just terrific. It was really

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<v Speaker 2>bad look and she sort of she struggled with that

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<v Speaker 2>for probably the next five years. So she was about fifteen,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, things went pretty poorly. Pips really good

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<v Speaker 2>at describing things, and you know, I've said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>she's a great little writer, and she said this one day,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I just feel like I'm down in a

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<v Speaker 2>hole and i can see everyone up there, but I'm

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<v Speaker 2>just too tired. I'm too tired. Everything was very weighty.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, she's at the moment, you know, and for

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<v Speaker 2>the last few years she's just you know, kicking goals.

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<v Speaker 2>She's doing really well. She does what she needs to

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<v Speaker 2>do to be, you know, to live a good life.

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<v Speaker 2>But it has been tricky, and she's been very open

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<v Speaker 2>in talking about it, and I think that's really important

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<v Speaker 2>that she can be like that and she shares that

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<v Speaker 2>with people. She shared that as part of her story,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, when she's been, you know, publicly speaking about

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<v Speaker 2>her story, and I think that, you know, it shows

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<v Speaker 2>how strong she is and where she's got to.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, most yeah, most definitely. I think the thing that

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<v Speaker 1>comes across to me you're articulating what she's going through,

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<v Speaker 1>what you're going through as a family, is that it's

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<v Speaker 1>not just the crime doesn't stop when the offense has stopped.

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<v Speaker 1>The crime permeates its way through years and years of

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<v Speaker 1>their life, if not their whole life. The type of

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<v Speaker 1>impact that this childhood sexual abuse, the process, the process

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<v Speaker 1>took two and a half years to get to court.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you've made a point to me before that how

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<v Speaker 1>long is two and a half years in a young

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<v Speaker 1>person's life, in the child's life, it would seem like

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<v Speaker 1>a lifetime.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, for Rose, it was a third of her life.

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<v Speaker 1>The third of a life going through going through this

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<v Speaker 1>and trying to get justice. And she's probably confused what

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<v Speaker 1>even justice is about. Let's just stopping this, making this

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<v Speaker 1>bad man get punished, which would confuse a child. How

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<v Speaker 1>do you even explain that to a child? But two

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<v Speaker 1>and a half years it just seems like an extraordinary

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<v Speaker 1>long time to wait for the matter to go the court.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's from the point that he's charged. Yep, now

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<v Speaker 1>in the country town, not sure of the circumstances. Was

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<v Speaker 1>he still living within the community. So they've been sexually assaulted,

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<v Speaker 1>he's been charged, and then his life, for all intents

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<v Speaker 1>and purposes, is going on unimpeded, and their kids trying

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<v Speaker 1>to make sense of, well, we told you what this

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<v Speaker 1>horrible man did to us, Why is he still walking

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<v Speaker 1>the streets?

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<v Speaker 2>And we had to put protections in place around them

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of if we go to the supermarket and

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<v Speaker 2>you see leon, these are the things that you need

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<v Speaker 2>to do and say, you know, prepare them for all

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<v Speaker 2>of that. You know that we just didn't. You didn't

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<v Speaker 2>think that that would ever happen, and fortunately we didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>We didn't ever see it, We didn't ever run into it.

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<v Speaker 2>And as much as I think it's you know, it

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<v Speaker 2>was crap that he was out. It was a crap.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you live a good life when you're facing

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<v Speaker 2>those charges? You know, there's part of me that goes, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you're still sort of he wasn't living a

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<v Speaker 2>great life. But I did hate that we had to

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<v Speaker 2>put these things around the girls. And you know, have

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of a script. I suppose, you know, if

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<v Speaker 2>we're in bigw and I'm in this section and you've

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<v Speaker 2>gone to this section and you see him, this is

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<v Speaker 2>what you have to say, even though there were a

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<v Speaker 2>vos and things like that in place, you know, to

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<v Speaker 2>try and it was just, yeah, it was just another layer.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just another layer that you had to add.

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<v Speaker 1>It's never ending. And you made the point that instead

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<v Speaker 1>of going to dancing or netball or playing sport in

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<v Speaker 1>the afternoon, so your children will going to see counselors. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and then and the recall, the kids would come up

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<v Speaker 1>with more information than it'd be passed on to the police.

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<v Speaker 1>It was just never ending.

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<v Speaker 2>And I do like if I had my time again,

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<v Speaker 2>I probably would have I probably would have been more

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<v Speaker 2>proactive in letting Glenn as a detective know, look, just

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<v Speaker 2>letting you know this is what's been said, but no

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<v Speaker 2>one sort of explains that pros And it's definitely no

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<v Speaker 2>disrespect to the people who were involved in our case

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<v Speaker 2>because we had a cracking team. And I say that

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<v Speaker 2>because of the way that they engage with us. But

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<v Speaker 2>you just don't know. I probably could have gone back

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<v Speaker 2>seven eight nine, you know, and multiple times.

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<v Speaker 1>Who has told you yea, he did this to me

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<v Speaker 1>or he did that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But you kind of go, oh, well, it's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of all we just know that he did it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And as a parent, you're balancing, Okay, we want justice,

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<v Speaker 1>we want a person accountable, but you're also looking at

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<v Speaker 1>how how many times are you going to traumatize you

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<v Speaker 1>the court? Then seeking justice shouldn't be retraumatizing. Tell us

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<v Speaker 1>about the court experience, break it right down, like, but

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<v Speaker 1>what people don't understand. They think, Okay, just go to court,

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<v Speaker 1>you turn up, they tell you to get there at

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<v Speaker 1>ten o'clock and you'll give your evidence and all be over.

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<v Speaker 1>It's nothing like that. You had to come up to

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<v Speaker 1>Sydney as a family rent a place.

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<v Speaker 2>Well was even before that, so you know, we would

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<v Speaker 2>see his name in the court listening and Brent would

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<v Speaker 2>go and we had no idea what a mention was like,

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<v Speaker 2>we just didn't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd say this cynically, I think the mention is a

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<v Speaker 1>way forlicens to get extra money. Half the time, I

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<v Speaker 1>wonder how many mentions can be on my.

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<v Speaker 2>Way over seventy mentions? Yeah, like it was. It was

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<v Speaker 2>just it was hideous and it you know. So we'd

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<v Speaker 2>go and and Brent would turn up and do a man.

0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.959
<v Speaker 2>There was one particular day that he went to the mansion.

0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.920
<v Speaker 1>So I just clarify so people do understand what the

0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.559
<v Speaker 1>mention is. That a person has been charged, they're bailed

0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.960
<v Speaker 1>to appear, or they're they're remanded to appear on a

0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:15.800
<v Speaker 1>certain date. They turn up and the mention is, okay,

0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:17.840
<v Speaker 1>how's the case coming along? Is a brief going to

0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.439
<v Speaker 1>be served? And it just drags.

0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.320
<v Speaker 2>On and we need some extra time.

0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:26.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the defense, Yeah, will turn up and it was

0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.040
<v Speaker 1>sometimes it's a prosecution. We need some extra time, and

0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.199
<v Speaker 1>so then it gets put back in the list again

0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:36.800
<v Speaker 1>time and time again from people going through the situation.

0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.000
<v Speaker 1>You're going through. Your life is hinging on what happens

0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:44.000
<v Speaker 1>on this court matter. Like that, everything that you're doing

0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.280
<v Speaker 1>in life is around what's going to happen in this

0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.440
<v Speaker 1>court matter. And the amount of time go anywhere.

0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you have to stay, you have to be available

0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.080
<v Speaker 2>just in case it becomes more than a mention. Yeah,

0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.040
<v Speaker 2>So you know we had so Brent was going to

0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.480
<v Speaker 2>them and eventually, you know, what what's this mentioned about?

0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:03.760
<v Speaker 2>What is that? So you know, it was explained to

0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:07.200
<v Speaker 2>us exactly what you've just said now, So we stopped

0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:12.280
<v Speaker 2>going to that and then we so the solicitor who

0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:14.720
<v Speaker 2>was working the case on behalf of the crown, and

0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:19.280
<v Speaker 2>I do say our solicitor was Nat and Nat was

0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.560
<v Speaker 2>fabulous and she was on board sort of from the beginning.

0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.400
<v Speaker 2>She could speed read. I thought that was amazing. You know,

0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.680
<v Speaker 2>she was just she was incredible, and she knew the

0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:31.880
<v Speaker 2>case inside and out. She was probably the most consistent

0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.880
<v Speaker 2>person from that legal side for us. Obviously there was Glenn.

0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, I had Glenn called me one day at

0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.400
<v Speaker 2>school to let me know that he'd received a letter

0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:50.440
<v Speaker 2>from the solicitor, the defendants solicitor, and you know, I

0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.120
<v Speaker 2>needed to stop telling people what he had done to

0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.760
<v Speaker 2>my children, which I certainly wasn't out there telling the community.

0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:00.480
<v Speaker 2>It was very targeted, as we talked about earlier, and

0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:05.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, I, yeah, so he was saying all this

0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.440
<v Speaker 2>and I actually was really cranky about that.

0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:13.400
<v Speaker 1>I'd understand why you yeah cranky about that, and I

0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:18.000
<v Speaker 1>get cranky about that. You're telling you're trying to protect kids.

0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.080
<v Speaker 2>And he was another person in the community that we knew.

0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.120
<v Speaker 2>We were connected to this guy, and I was like, well,

0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.640
<v Speaker 2>you chose to defend him. But you know what I

0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.920
<v Speaker 2>did Gary, I asked Glenn, I said, how much does

0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.880
<v Speaker 2>it cost for them to send a letter? And he's like,

0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:32.600
<v Speaker 2>what do you mean? I said, well, how much does

0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:36.280
<v Speaker 2>every letter cost? And he said, oh, three hundred more

0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.400
<v Speaker 2>than that. I said, well, every time he sends a letter,

0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.760
<v Speaker 2>can you reply and have a question at the end?

0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.200
<v Speaker 1>I love that.

0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.760
<v Speaker 2>I said, if he is found not guilty, at least

0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.040
<v Speaker 2>I will have pleasure in the fact that he's had

0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:54.440
<v Speaker 2>to pay for it. Because that was the biggest tight

0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.480
<v Speaker 2>asses you've ever met. And you know, I was just like,

0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.440
<v Speaker 2>where do you get your wins? That's where you get

0:15:59.440 --> 0:15:59.880
<v Speaker 2>your wins?

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.200
<v Speaker 1>What a brilliant strategy. I like, I don't think it's illegal.

0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah anyway, So yeah, all that sort of stuff was happening.

0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.240
<v Speaker 2>So we had NAT and that was based in Sydney.

0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:17.000
<v Speaker 2>We were in Aubury. We had the barrister. The Crown

0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:22.800
<v Speaker 2>Barrister was based in Wogga. His name was Vince and

0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:27.040
<v Speaker 2>he was exceptional with the kids, had a really great

0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.240
<v Speaker 2>manner with them. So we did start the case. They

0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:34.400
<v Speaker 2>did start the trial in Aubury. They started the trial

0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.640
<v Speaker 2>and I think that was sort of the August. It was.

0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:44.680
<v Speaker 2>It was nearly two years at that point. So we

0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.560
<v Speaker 2>went into the courthouse in Aubrey. We did practices. The

0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:50.760
<v Speaker 2>girls went in there to show you know, where the

0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:54.360
<v Speaker 2>room was, and that was that was a shit moment,

0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:56.160
<v Speaker 2>Like for me, I just thought, what am I doing?

0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.240
<v Speaker 2>You Like, this is not like Year ten mock trial.

0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.320
<v Speaker 2>That was my last experience of a court house. It's intimidating,

0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.400
<v Speaker 2>it was, and you know, especially there on a Monday,

0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.879
<v Speaker 2>because there's some interesting characters in the hallways on a Monday.

0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:12.880
<v Speaker 2>And we yeah, so we went in and they did

0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:17.399
<v Speaker 2>their practices and them the day that we went Brent

0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:21.040
<v Speaker 2>had organized everything with military precision because he likes to

0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:25.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, be on time and in control, and this

0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.760
<v Speaker 2>was totally outside of our control. But he could organize

0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.320
<v Speaker 2>getting the girls into the courthouse without having to see him,

0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, So we had friends lined up and helping

0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:38.840
<v Speaker 2>with that. Anyway, we went in and he was sitting

0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.679
<v Speaker 2>across the aisle, you know, he was sitting across the

0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.600
<v Speaker 2>aisle from from us, and I was just looking, thing,

0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.879
<v Speaker 2>where is the protection, Like there is nothing, there's nothing

0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:51.040
<v Speaker 2>here for these kids. So this man who had, you know,

0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:56.200
<v Speaker 2>spent all this time making them feel horrible, was across

0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.880
<v Speaker 2>the isle and he was smug. He just sat there

0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.560
<v Speaker 2>and he looked and it was just yuck. Anyway, So

0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:10.000
<v Speaker 2>it was it was frightening for the kids. Yeah.

0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Look.

0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.600
<v Speaker 2>And so my brother actually came along. My brother is seven

0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 2>years younger than me, and he had lived with us

0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.600
<v Speaker 2>for a period of time and knew these people as well,

0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.679
<v Speaker 2>and he sort of he recognized that the kids were scared,

0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.439
<v Speaker 2>and you know, he sort of kept looking at the

0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:28.000
<v Speaker 2>window of you know, this room that we're in, and

0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.200
<v Speaker 2>he goes, oh, is that him? And I was like, yeah,

0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:36.720
<v Speaker 2>he's gone, Geezy looks old. I was like, yeah he does,

0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:39.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah he does. And I could sort of pick up

0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.399
<v Speaker 2>where he's going. He said, I reckon, he looks a

0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.000
<v Speaker 2>bit fat too. He's like got old and fat. And

0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.560
<v Speaker 2>I was like, yeah he has. And he's like he's

0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:53.680
<v Speaker 2>just an old, fat motherfucker like me. Anyway, the girl

0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.800
<v Speaker 2>started giggling, and there was you know, some other people

0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:58.720
<v Speaker 2>in the room as well at the time. Everyone's sort

0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.160
<v Speaker 2>of giggling, and he was named the motherfucker from therefore,

0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.439
<v Speaker 2>like the girls have never used his name, that's what

0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.080
<v Speaker 2>his name is. And it just was enough to make

0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.240
<v Speaker 2>them feel a little bit powerful.

0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:14.400
<v Speaker 1>I understand what you're saying there, and they can they've

0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.480
<v Speaker 1>got control here, they've got your support them. Yeah, we

0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:19.560
<v Speaker 1>can call it this like what we want to call

0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:21.560
<v Speaker 1>him because he doesn't deserve any respect.

0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I get it.

0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:24.000
<v Speaker 1>I get so.

0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:26.199
<v Speaker 2>You know, that was good and so you take your

0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 2>little wins like that. Unfortunately, for reasons that is, they're

0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.879
<v Speaker 2>too unbelievable and I really don't think people believe it.

0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:41.200
<v Speaker 2>We ended up not going through with their case in Aubrey.

0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:43.400
<v Speaker 2>They decided it would be best if it was moved

0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:43.920
<v Speaker 2>to Sydney.

0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:45.520
<v Speaker 1>Who decided that.

0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:50.320
<v Speaker 2>So there was a bit of back room banter between

0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:55.520
<v Speaker 2>the judge and you know, the barristers about a previous

0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.840
<v Speaker 2>case that had been had and one of the barristers

0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.880
<v Speaker 2>the defense barris so he actually was defending a very

0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.560
<v Speaker 2>well known criminal up here in Sydney later in that week,

0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:12.760
<v Speaker 2>and so if they started the trial, they they wouldn't

0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.040
<v Speaker 2>be able to complete it at that time, and so

0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:22.160
<v Speaker 2>it was a very good out for the Crown to say, well,

0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.840
<v Speaker 2>let's not start it. They felt that it would be

0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.560
<v Speaker 2>better if we were not, if we didn't have our

0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:29.399
<v Speaker 2>trial in that place.

0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:33.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, yeah, it goes to Sydney. A couple of

0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.359
<v Speaker 1>things about Sydney and these really hit home to me.

0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:39.119
<v Speaker 1>You're going to move the whole family up here for

0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:40.960
<v Speaker 1>four or five weeks. I think that we.

0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:42.359
<v Speaker 2>Thought we were going to be here for two weeks.

0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:48.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it drags on and on the court matter, your

0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.880
<v Speaker 1>daughters are going in and you're basically handing them over

0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.760
<v Speaker 1>to people, and you're not allowed into court while they're

0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:57.760
<v Speaker 1>giving evidence. One of your daughters was in the witness

0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.639
<v Speaker 1>box for five days or giving evidence for five days

0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:02.879
<v Speaker 1>and you can't be present.

0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.639
<v Speaker 2>And that was just during the trial. So we had

0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:08.480
<v Speaker 2>to have the pre trial because they were trying, they

0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.080
<v Speaker 2>were trying to get the cases separated. So and I

0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.920
<v Speaker 2>don't think people understand that happens a lot, particularly with

0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.720
<v Speaker 2>child sex cases. So what they and it used to

0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.439
<v Speaker 2>be very frequent and unfortunately the Royal Commission sort of

0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:22.800
<v Speaker 2>one of their recommendations is that this is a process

0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.960
<v Speaker 2>that's looked at. But what they used to do is say, well,

0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:30.120
<v Speaker 2>you can't you know, even though these girls or sisters

0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.320
<v Speaker 2>were trying the case separately, because there might have been

0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:39.200
<v Speaker 2>collusion or concoction or whatever. So they did that fancy

0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:44.280
<v Speaker 2>word GUARDI one of those, so the trial before the trial,

0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, and again had no knowledge of what that was.

0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:52.600
<v Speaker 2>And so we went to so they came up here

0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:56.560
<v Speaker 2>and they had to do that first. So essentially both

0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:59.480
<v Speaker 2>the girls had to listen to all of their evidence

0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.719
<v Speaker 2>and be cross examined, and myself to action and I sucked.

0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:09.080
<v Speaker 2>I was really bad in the pre trial before they

0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:10.399
<v Speaker 2>decided to keep the cases.

0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.159
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so that they've had an application to separate the

0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:16.520
<v Speaker 1>separate the trial. So he was charged and probably should

0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:19.359
<v Speaker 1>I should have clarified that earlier. He was charged. I

0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:21.520
<v Speaker 1>believe four counts with Rose.

0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:23.280
<v Speaker 2>I can't remember.

0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:27.840
<v Speaker 1>There were a lot, okay, charges related to Rose and

0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.160
<v Speaker 1>charges related to Pepper. Yeah, and they tried to separate

0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:36.040
<v Speaker 1>separate the trial, so that okay, so we've got the trial,

0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.320
<v Speaker 1>you've had the voidier where you've got to give evidence

0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:42.520
<v Speaker 1>and you go for all the trauma associated with a

0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:45.719
<v Speaker 1>normal trial anyway, But it's at sake for legal argument

0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:48.320
<v Speaker 1>to determine. Okay, they're going to be heard together, then

0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:52.280
<v Speaker 1>you've got to go through through it again. I correct

0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:54.760
<v Speaker 1>me if I'm wrong, but I think one of your

0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:57.640
<v Speaker 1>children was giving evidence and had to give evidence again

0:22:57.680 --> 0:22:59.280
<v Speaker 1>because the jury member fell asleep.

0:22:59.640 --> 0:22:59.880
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:02.800
<v Speaker 1>And you can't make this stuff up, but no, this

0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:05.680
<v Speaker 1>is this happens. Things happened, but.

0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:10.040
<v Speaker 2>It was and it was interesting. My youngest sister, she's

0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:14.040
<v Speaker 2>fierce and she was she was with the girl, she

0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.760
<v Speaker 2>was supporting the girls just outside the room because we

0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:23.320
<v Speaker 2>weren't able to be there, and she when she came

0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.560
<v Speaker 2>down after we didn't know what had happened. We just

0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:28.680
<v Speaker 2>knew that they were going to have to impanel a

0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.960
<v Speaker 2>new jury. And she came down in the lift you know,

0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:34.879
<v Speaker 2>the back of the Downing Center there and rose like

0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.640
<v Speaker 2>runs out of the lift and you know, jumps and

0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.840
<v Speaker 2>Brent catches her like I haven't just been sitting and

0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:44.520
<v Speaker 2>listening to like, you know, she just had this beautiful

0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:47.280
<v Speaker 2>way about her. But what we didn't realize is that

0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:50.320
<v Speaker 2>another lift had come down at the same time opened

0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:52.640
<v Speaker 2>up and these people sort of walked down and stopped,

0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:55.399
<v Speaker 2>and they sort of all ran into one another. You know.

0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:59.280
<v Speaker 2>It was one of those moments. And I looked over

0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.359
<v Speaker 2>and Anna looked at them, and she gave them this

0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:04.960
<v Speaker 2>look like my sister. She gave them this look. I'm like,

0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:08.760
<v Speaker 2>oh my goodness, what's going on here? And she said

0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:11.480
<v Speaker 2>get her out of here, get her out of here.

0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:13.720
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, what are you talking about. She

0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:17.359
<v Speaker 2>goes one of those motherfuckers just fell asleep, and we

0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:20.679
<v Speaker 2>got to start over. We didn't know, we didn't know.

0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:24.640
<v Speaker 2>A couple of those jury members were actually quite tear

0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:28.159
<v Speaker 2>particularly when they saw that interaction, I think between Brendan

0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:31.359
<v Speaker 2>Rose realizing she was just a little girl. Yeah, and

0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.320
<v Speaker 2>because they'd already heard everything so they knew what the

0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.880
<v Speaker 2>case was about, so they would have Yeah.

0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:42.600
<v Speaker 1>And the trauma. You said, said to me the other

0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:45.400
<v Speaker 1>day when we're talking that, how angry you were at

0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.280
<v Speaker 1>the judge And do you want to talk about talk

0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:48.679
<v Speaker 1>about that?

0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:52.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So we as I said, So we did that,

0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:55.399
<v Speaker 2>and I think that was a few days. I think

0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:58.879
<v Speaker 2>it was four or five days. And there was also

0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:01.720
<v Speaker 2>they tried to get a ruling that I couldn't say

0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:06.159
<v Speaker 2>how I found out about what had happened to the girls,

0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:07.760
<v Speaker 2>like how it was presented to me. They didn't want

0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:10.520
<v Speaker 2>me to be able to say the words, and the

0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:12.120
<v Speaker 2>words are very impactful.

0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:16.040
<v Speaker 1>They were trying to stop you, like the first report

0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:18.800
<v Speaker 1>of this is when your five year old daughter jumps

0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:20.480
<v Speaker 1>in the bed and tells you what she told you,

0:25:20.560 --> 0:25:24.439
<v Speaker 1>that that like Leon licking my vagina. They argued to

0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:28.760
<v Speaker 1>exclude that. Yep, I look at the way of evidence

0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:32.919
<v Speaker 1>that comes across. It comes across with that, and I

0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:34.800
<v Speaker 1>just get frustrated with the court system.

0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:38.399
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes it's almost like, you know, it hurts our ears

0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:42.400
<v Speaker 2>to hear that, like it did. Anyway, Fortunately, they did

0:25:42.440 --> 0:25:44.240
<v Speaker 2>say that we could use that. You know that I

0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:47.080
<v Speaker 2>could because it provide a context.

0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:50.959
<v Speaker 1>Right, and the point that we were talking about was

0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:55.000
<v Speaker 1>your anger and frustration that the judge and the defense

0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:56.920
<v Speaker 1>on how your children were true.

0:25:57.280 --> 0:26:00.960
<v Speaker 2>So we had as I said that multiple days, so

0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:05.240
<v Speaker 2>Rose had to listen to her evidence three times and

0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:09.120
<v Speaker 2>then answer questions. They have a witness support person, so

0:26:09.240 --> 0:26:14.200
<v Speaker 2>they met that witness support person during the process. We

0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:18.159
<v Speaker 2>had there was the lady from SAS from Sexual Assault

0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:20.800
<v Speaker 2>Service in Aubrey came up with us. But because the

0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:23.520
<v Speaker 2>trial went for so long the funding ran out for

0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:25.240
<v Speaker 2>her to be there, so she was actually only there,

0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:30.080
<v Speaker 2>she wasn't really there while they actually gave evidence. And

0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:33.200
<v Speaker 2>we also had Maggie who was giving evidence as well

0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:35.960
<v Speaker 2>because she had been a witness to a number of things. Yeah,

0:26:36.560 --> 0:26:46.440
<v Speaker 2>so Rose had done this every time the Crown prosecutor,

0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:50.600
<v Speaker 2>so we want to say him, every time he objected

0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:54.680
<v Speaker 2>to something, it was like it was overruled. He did

0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:59.080
<v Speaker 2>not get for the whole trial, not one wrote. You know,

0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:01.680
<v Speaker 2>Rose was being told she was a liar. She goes

0:27:01.720 --> 0:27:04.560
<v Speaker 2>they called me a liar, you know, like to all

0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:08.600
<v Speaker 2>these things. The language that was you just seven and a.

0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Half, seven and a half in a witness box at

0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:13.680
<v Speaker 1>court being called a liar.

0:27:13.800 --> 0:27:15.880
<v Speaker 2>Yep, you're a liar.

0:27:16.160 --> 0:27:21.720
<v Speaker 1>So you objective to that overall and it.

0:27:21.800 --> 0:27:23.959
<v Speaker 2>Just the whole thing, it just went like that. It

0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:27.080
<v Speaker 2>was just it was so horrible and it was so

0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:30.760
<v Speaker 2>outside anything that I believed could happen. I felt stupid.

0:27:30.840 --> 0:27:32.840
<v Speaker 2>I did. I was like, I can't believe they can

0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:35.600
<v Speaker 2>do this. I'd it just and every time I looked

0:27:35.600 --> 0:27:41.679
<v Speaker 2>at that man, the defense barrister, they had zero respect

0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:44.480
<v Speaker 2>for him. I just I could not respect him. He

0:27:44.600 --> 0:27:51.360
<v Speaker 2>was short too anyway, So we so Rose did that

0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:58.840
<v Speaker 2>and then Pitt was on for days and she she

0:27:58.920 --> 0:27:59.920
<v Speaker 2>couldn't speak.

0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:02.880
<v Speaker 1>By the end, let traumatized.

0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:06.640
<v Speaker 2>She could not speak. She ended up actually with really

0:28:06.680 --> 0:28:09.160
<v Speaker 2>bad tonsilitis. We had to get a doctor to come

0:28:09.200 --> 0:28:13.920
<v Speaker 2>to the hotel. She got really really bad tonsilitis. And

0:28:14.000 --> 0:28:16.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, there were things that happened, like so Janine,

0:28:16.560 --> 0:28:21.040
<v Speaker 2>who was our witness support person, she they asked Rose

0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:23.160
<v Speaker 2>seven and a half year old. Rose, who has since

0:28:23.200 --> 0:28:28.520
<v Speaker 2>been diagnosed with dyslexia, asked her to read from a

0:28:28.600 --> 0:28:34.000
<v Speaker 2>page on her statement and she couldn't find it, and

0:28:34.080 --> 0:28:38.719
<v Speaker 2>Janine turned the page to get it for her, and

0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:44.280
<v Speaker 2>she was dismissed because she was helping the witness. So

0:28:44.320 --> 0:28:47.080
<v Speaker 2>the one person that they had a connection with was

0:28:47.120 --> 0:28:54.240
<v Speaker 2>dismissed because she was helping the witness. Natalie, the solicitor

0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:57.680
<v Speaker 2>who was talking about she came out of the courtroom

0:28:57.720 --> 0:29:00.720
<v Speaker 2>one day, Brent sitting there. Pips been on the stand

0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:03.800
<v Speaker 2>for a couple of days at this point, and she

0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:05.920
<v Speaker 2>came out really quickly and she said, I've got to

0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:07.600
<v Speaker 2>go around the back and talk to pitm And Brent

0:29:07.760 --> 0:29:09.800
<v Speaker 2>was like, is she okay? And she said no, she's

0:29:09.840 --> 0:29:14.080
<v Speaker 2>not okay, and Brent said, well, like, what do we

0:29:14.160 --> 0:29:16.080
<v Speaker 2>do and she said, I don't know. She goes, I'm

0:29:16.080 --> 0:29:18.160
<v Speaker 2>just going to talk to her. She just, you know,

0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:20.800
<v Speaker 2>she just needs to answer the questions. If the answers yes,

0:29:20.840 --> 0:29:23.000
<v Speaker 2>she says yes. If it's no, she says no. If

0:29:23.000 --> 0:29:24.640
<v Speaker 2>it's I don't know, she says, I don't know. That's

0:29:24.680 --> 0:29:27.560
<v Speaker 2>all she has to do. She's really upset, and then

0:29:27.600 --> 0:29:31.680
<v Speaker 2>she rushed off. Well, the defendant's family heard that interaction.

0:29:32.840 --> 0:29:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Natalie got rooted and had to do training because of it,

0:29:41.360 --> 0:29:42.840
<v Speaker 2>like it impacted on her career.

0:29:43.360 --> 0:29:45.960
<v Speaker 1>Technically in the lead to tell someone what the novel,

0:29:46.280 --> 0:29:48.520
<v Speaker 1>what the person in the witness box is saying, but

0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:52.960
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about a young girl, traumatized young girl, and

0:29:53.280 --> 0:29:54.120
<v Speaker 1>that it's.

0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:57.000
<v Speaker 2>Just and she wasn't saying what she was saying. She

0:29:57.040 --> 0:29:59.960
<v Speaker 2>was just saying. She wasn't saying anything. And the jide

0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:02.960
<v Speaker 2>actually ruled well no, because she used the word if.

0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:06.160
<v Speaker 2>She didn't give that she didn't give the answers to

0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:12.360
<v Speaker 2>the question she said if, and also she didn't say

0:30:12.400 --> 0:30:15.200
<v Speaker 2>what any of it but what happened. And I didn't realize

0:30:15.240 --> 0:30:17.680
<v Speaker 2>this at the time. I was at the motel, Pips

0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:22.280
<v Speaker 2>out the back of the courthouse waiting to go in.

0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:26.920
<v Speaker 2>No one knew this was going on, because the next morning,

0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:28.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, there was this and Nat was sort of

0:30:28.680 --> 0:30:30.760
<v Speaker 2>sitting there and Brent went to talk to her and

0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:32.600
<v Speaker 2>she was like no, like, I can't talk to you.

0:30:33.840 --> 0:30:36.280
<v Speaker 2>And then they all got caught as witnesses in this

0:30:36.520 --> 0:30:39.960
<v Speaker 2>side show that was happening while Pip's sitting in the

0:30:40.040 --> 0:30:45.200
<v Speaker 2>back waiting anyway, and then Brent wasn't like Brent wasn't

0:30:45.200 --> 0:30:47.000
<v Speaker 2>allowed to talk to Pip, like it was just all this.

0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:50.360
<v Speaker 2>It was just absolute rubbish. And I ended up on

0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:53.800
<v Speaker 2>the Friday, so she'd gone all week, and on the

0:30:53.840 --> 0:30:58.520
<v Speaker 2>Friday they said, look, they're trying to they're trying to

0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:01.800
<v Speaker 2>get the charges dropped. They're saying that Pip's not answering

0:31:01.880 --> 0:31:06.960
<v Speaker 2>enough questions. And I said, all right, no worries. I said, well, Glenn,

0:31:07.160 --> 0:31:08.960
<v Speaker 2>I want you to go in there right now, and

0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:12.600
<v Speaker 2>I want them charged with the emotional abuse of my daughter.

0:31:13.320 --> 0:31:15.520
<v Speaker 2>And he sort of looked at me and he's like

0:31:15.520 --> 0:31:17.600
<v Speaker 2>he's like, you're not I would if I could. And

0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:20.200
<v Speaker 2>that's what they're doing. That's what they're doing in there.

0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:25.480
<v Speaker 2>They're abusing my children. Anyway, Obviously that didn't happen, So

0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:29.720
<v Speaker 2>that happened. I actually then went back to our hotel,

0:31:29.920 --> 0:31:32.560
<v Speaker 2>my cousin. We had twenty two people in and out

0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:34.280
<v Speaker 2>of that courtroom the whole time we were there. Were

0:31:34.320 --> 0:31:36.520
<v Speaker 2>so well supported, and when I say in and out,

0:31:36.600 --> 0:31:38.720
<v Speaker 2>no one was in there with the kids. They all

0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:42.800
<v Speaker 2>sat outside with us. But I went home and did

0:31:42.840 --> 0:31:46.320
<v Speaker 2>a chronology of what had happened since we'd arrived in Sydney,

0:31:46.320 --> 0:31:49.600
<v Speaker 2>so we were up to the end of week three,

0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:53.560
<v Speaker 2>I think at that point, and i'd have said that

0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:56.600
<v Speaker 2>if the charges were dropped, I was happy to go

0:31:56.720 --> 0:31:59.840
<v Speaker 2>trial by media. I'm fine with that. And i'd actually

0:31:59.840 --> 0:32:03.040
<v Speaker 2>been in contact with somebody from the media during the

0:32:03.080 --> 0:32:09.160
<v Speaker 2>week and anyway, so that sort of I don't know

0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:12.200
<v Speaker 2>if that prompted anything, but I think everything got a

0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:13.880
<v Speaker 2>bit faster after that.

0:32:14.120 --> 0:32:16.640
<v Speaker 1>I don't like to be accountable, and look, I don't

0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:21.000
<v Speaker 1>want you to feed into my anger about some things

0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:25.520
<v Speaker 1>I see at court. But what you've just described there,

0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:28.520
<v Speaker 1>I just from a parent's point of view, I can't

0:32:28.560 --> 0:32:32.120
<v Speaker 1>even comprehend the anger and the frustration you must feel

0:32:32.560 --> 0:32:37.400
<v Speaker 1>when we haven't done anything wrong. My daughters certainly haven't

0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:40.560
<v Speaker 1>done anything wrong. Why we've been treated like that? And

0:32:41.000 --> 0:32:45.160
<v Speaker 1>it's all very well, And I know this sounds very opinionated,

0:32:45.240 --> 0:32:49.080
<v Speaker 1>but it's all very well. When these defense barriss are saying, well,

0:32:49.080 --> 0:32:51.080
<v Speaker 1>everyone's got a right to a defense and all that,

0:32:51.360 --> 0:32:53.959
<v Speaker 1>but there's a way in which you can defend people.

0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:57.280
<v Speaker 1>I agree, everyone does have a right to defense, but

0:32:57.320 --> 0:33:00.719
<v Speaker 1>there's a way in which you can defend people so

0:33:00.760 --> 0:33:02.040
<v Speaker 1>their legal rights are met.

0:33:02.440 --> 0:33:06.280
<v Speaker 2>I think it took its toll on him, the defense barrister.

0:33:06.960 --> 0:33:10.120
<v Speaker 2>I watched his demeanor change over that period of time,

0:33:11.240 --> 0:33:13.360
<v Speaker 2>but he still went there with the intention to break

0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:16.160
<v Speaker 2>the children. That was the quickest way to get the

0:33:16.200 --> 0:33:16.920
<v Speaker 2>case to be done.

0:33:17.240 --> 0:33:20.400
<v Speaker 1>If we're talking kids, we're not talking adults in there

0:33:20.480 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 1>or beating up on the police officer or someone in

0:33:22.560 --> 0:33:25.480
<v Speaker 1>the witness box. We're talking about kids that have come

0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:29.200
<v Speaker 1>forward to the court because they've been sexually assaulted. It

0:33:29.360 --> 0:33:35.600
<v Speaker 1>needs protection. Okay, I'm angry. You were angry and upset, understandably,

0:33:35.760 --> 0:33:39.160
<v Speaker 1>but you actually did something like the advocacy from it,

0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:41.160
<v Speaker 1>and we're going to move into that because I think

0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:45.880
<v Speaker 1>it's very significant the things that flowed on from your

0:33:45.920 --> 0:33:49.000
<v Speaker 1>anger and I'm sure other people's angers and frustrations of

0:33:49.040 --> 0:33:53.200
<v Speaker 1>the system that's just not set up to support children.

0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:54.080
<v Speaker 2>No, that's it.

0:33:54.360 --> 0:33:59.760
<v Speaker 1>No circumstances. So he was convicted only of what he

0:33:59.800 --> 0:34:04.840
<v Speaker 1>did or can I ask you, and you're again only speculating,

0:34:04.920 --> 0:34:08.320
<v Speaker 1>I suppose on why he wasn't convicted of what happened

0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:09.120
<v Speaker 1>with Rose.

0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:12.799
<v Speaker 2>So I know that there was a question that came

0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:16.200
<v Speaker 2>back from the jury during that when they were deliberating,

0:34:16.640 --> 0:34:22.640
<v Speaker 2>and the question was if it mattered if she got

0:34:22.680 --> 0:34:28.600
<v Speaker 2>the time wrong, like, you know, if the time frame

0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:33.360
<v Speaker 2>wasn't right, but she'd said what had happened, you know,

0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:36.920
<v Speaker 2>did that matter if they were sure that it had happened,

0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:43.600
<v Speaker 2>And the judge said that that was reasonable doubt. Yeah,

0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:49.400
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, that that that's hard, Like it's hard, and

0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:51.919
<v Speaker 2>I think that's Roses found that hard as she's got

0:34:51.920 --> 0:34:55.080
<v Speaker 2>older to She didn't know until we did the justice

0:34:55.080 --> 0:35:00.160
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't hurt, which we'll talk about. She didn't know that

0:35:00.200 --> 0:35:03.759
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't convicted for charges on her. So when we

0:35:03.760 --> 0:35:07.200
<v Speaker 2>did the victim impact statement, we did one for pimp

0:35:07.320 --> 0:35:10.839
<v Speaker 2>and we did one for her too, even though we

0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:14.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't get it. Yeah, I just wanted her to know

0:35:14.920 --> 0:35:15.959
<v Speaker 2>that it mattered.

0:35:17.400 --> 0:35:24.040
<v Speaker 1>When the guilty verdict came down. How did you feel personally?

0:35:24.440 --> 0:35:25.800
<v Speaker 1>How did the family feel?

0:35:27.000 --> 0:35:28.840
<v Speaker 2>That was a weird day. This is my question that

0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:32.719
<v Speaker 2>I last you a couple of years ago because we

0:35:32.760 --> 0:35:35.840
<v Speaker 2>went to your show at the Endmore Theater, and my

0:35:35.960 --> 0:35:39.960
<v Speaker 2>question for you was, how do you balance the elation

0:35:40.120 --> 0:35:45.280
<v Speaker 2>of a guilty verdict with the feelings of the family

0:35:45.600 --> 0:35:53.160
<v Speaker 2>when nothing's changed. So we were at home and the

0:35:53.200 --> 0:35:55.480
<v Speaker 2>girls were at school. You know, the girls had gone

0:35:55.520 --> 0:35:59.480
<v Speaker 2>back to school. My uncle and my cousin stayed up. Well,

0:35:59.480 --> 0:36:02.239
<v Speaker 2>they lived in Sydney, so they went We came home.

0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Brent went up the first day and then nothing happened.

0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:08.160
<v Speaker 2>So he came back home and they were at the

0:36:08.200 --> 0:36:13.520
<v Speaker 2>courthouse and I got the phone call from my uncle

0:36:13.760 --> 0:36:17.200
<v Speaker 2>to say he's been found guilty of seven out of

0:36:17.239 --> 0:36:22.600
<v Speaker 2>eight charges. And I was like okay, And then I

0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:25.040
<v Speaker 2>was singing where's Brent? Like he was picking the girls

0:36:25.120 --> 0:36:27.280
<v Speaker 2>up from school and I didn't know, you know, where

0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:30.080
<v Speaker 2>he was or where he would be. I was worried

0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:32.120
<v Speaker 2>that it would be not guilty and he'd be picking

0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:34.120
<v Speaker 2>the girls up from school because I did worry how

0:36:34.120 --> 0:36:39.239
<v Speaker 2>he would cope with that anyway, So that happened, and

0:36:39.320 --> 0:36:43.200
<v Speaker 2>then my cousin then rang me. He stayed in for

0:36:43.239 --> 0:36:46.480
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing, and he got bail. He was found

0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:50.440
<v Speaker 2>guilty of child sex offenses and he got bail, so

0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:54.480
<v Speaker 2>he was allowed to walk out of the courthouse that day. Anyway,

0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:58.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot of our friends came over, the people who'd

0:36:58.200 --> 0:37:00.920
<v Speaker 2>been supporting us during the trial that you know, the

0:37:01.000 --> 0:37:06.640
<v Speaker 2>years proceeding. Glenn the detective came over and a couple

0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:10.680
<v Speaker 2>of people bought bottles of champagne. And I was sitting

0:37:10.680 --> 0:37:14.759
<v Speaker 2>at the table and everyone was kind of jovial, and

0:37:14.800 --> 0:37:19.640
<v Speaker 2>I do not begrudge to anyone of that at all. Actually,

0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:21.600
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't sit there.

0:37:25.400 --> 0:37:25.680
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:28.520
<v Speaker 2>It just confirmed when I knew already.

0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:35.759
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, when's what's the celebrate?

0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:42.320
<v Speaker 2>No, that's all right. And you know who came out, Glenn, Yeah, yeah,

0:37:42.480 --> 0:37:43.520
<v Speaker 2>because he knew.

0:37:43.960 --> 0:37:48.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think, yeah. I liked the fact that. And

0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:51.560
<v Speaker 1>one good thing that came from it, you had a

0:37:51.560 --> 0:37:55.759
<v Speaker 1>good officer that could understand that there's not a celebration

0:37:58.120 --> 0:38:02.799
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, I people, and we're being critical of the

0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:07.480
<v Speaker 1>justice system or legal systems. You quite rightly say it's

0:38:07.560 --> 0:38:10.880
<v Speaker 1>not perfect. There's failings and we understand you need checks

0:38:10.880 --> 0:38:15.240
<v Speaker 1>and balances, but we're talking about protecting kids and kids

0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:18.560
<v Speaker 1>should be protected and the rights of the accused. I

0:38:18.600 --> 0:38:22.560
<v Speaker 1>fully understand that. I get it all, but again, look

0:38:22.560 --> 0:38:26.120
<v Speaker 1>at the offense and with the sentencing, Like he came

0:38:26.120 --> 0:38:27.960
<v Speaker 1>out and by what did he get sentenced?

0:38:28.280 --> 0:38:32.360
<v Speaker 2>So it was three years, nine months and two and

0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:36.200
<v Speaker 2>a half years with parole, so he was out two

0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:36.919
<v Speaker 2>and a half years.

0:38:36.920 --> 0:38:41.440
<v Speaker 1>Here I concede that. You know, it's not much of

0:38:41.480 --> 0:38:44.879
<v Speaker 1>a concession. That's obvious. Judges have you know, they take

0:38:44.920 --> 0:38:47.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of things in the consideration. They're smart, smart people.

0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:51.680
<v Speaker 1>I just think the courts need to reflect. The courts

0:38:51.680 --> 0:38:55.200
<v Speaker 1>are there to serve the community, people who have heard

0:38:55.200 --> 0:38:58.200
<v Speaker 1>the story of how one man's actions for his own

0:38:58.440 --> 0:39:01.759
<v Speaker 1>let's break it down, his own sex gratification and the

0:39:01.840 --> 0:39:06.080
<v Speaker 1>impact on how many lives he's are harmed and how

0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:09.600
<v Speaker 1>many lives he is You know, what he's done is

0:39:09.920 --> 0:39:11.320
<v Speaker 1>people are going to carry that for the rest of

0:39:11.400 --> 0:39:14.279
<v Speaker 1>their lives. How much money has been spent on him

0:39:14.719 --> 0:39:18.200
<v Speaker 1>and three and a half or what was it, three

0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:23.319
<v Speaker 1>years and two and a half. Yeah, I never from

0:39:23.400 --> 0:39:25.239
<v Speaker 1>a cops point of view, I never bought into the

0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:29.120
<v Speaker 1>actual sentencing. But I would imagine with you, with everything

0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:32.600
<v Speaker 1>you've been through, you've just described the story you described,

0:39:32.719 --> 0:39:34.600
<v Speaker 1>was just getting to the end of the court matter,

0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:37.480
<v Speaker 1>and there's your two and a half years, there's your

0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:39.920
<v Speaker 1>three years sentence. Your family's been sentenced.

0:39:39.920 --> 0:39:44.800
<v Speaker 2>So it was look and it was a bit heartening.

0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:48.760
<v Speaker 2>And he he did appeal his conviction, and he appealed

0:39:48.760 --> 0:39:53.600
<v Speaker 2>it on the basis that Pipped inn't answer all the questions.

0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:58.680
<v Speaker 2>There were three appeal judges, and I've seen the documents

0:39:58.760 --> 0:40:01.319
<v Speaker 2>around that, and there it was a little bit of

0:40:01.360 --> 0:40:06.680
<v Speaker 2>hope for me, you know, as everyday citizen that they

0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:13.920
<v Speaker 2>were quite professionally damning of some of the decisions that

0:40:13.960 --> 0:40:17.719
<v Speaker 2>were made during the trial, including the fact that some

0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:23.160
<v Speaker 2>of Rose's charges had been dropped. Yeah, both before the

0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:24.840
<v Speaker 2>trial and during the trial.

0:40:26.080 --> 0:40:29.200
<v Speaker 1>The courts are a complex matter. I suppose the one

0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:33.960
<v Speaker 1>thing I take away from your experience is I didn't

0:40:34.480 --> 0:40:38.160
<v Speaker 1>really appreciate how traumatic it is on the kids. When

0:40:38.200 --> 0:40:41.560
<v Speaker 1>you break it down, you're living with them, you're raising them,

0:40:41.800 --> 0:40:43.520
<v Speaker 1>and what they're going through at that age, and I

0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:46.320
<v Speaker 1>can't even comprehend what would be going through their mind.

0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:52.839
<v Speaker 2>In this well, even for Mags like she was a

0:40:52.880 --> 0:40:57.120
<v Speaker 2>star witness. You know, in the end she was able

0:40:57.160 --> 0:41:00.000
<v Speaker 2>to just get in there and say and basically put

0:41:00.120 --> 0:41:04.359
<v Speaker 2>him in the places where you know, the other two

0:41:04.360 --> 0:41:06.880
<v Speaker 2>had said. So. Yeah, but it was four weeks. She

0:41:06.960 --> 0:41:08.120
<v Speaker 2>waited four weeks for that.

0:41:09.040 --> 0:41:11.560
<v Speaker 1>You said you felt you didn't go well in the

0:41:11.560 --> 0:41:14.200
<v Speaker 1>witness box. I feel pressure going in the witness box.

0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:15.640
<v Speaker 1>I can't even comprehend what.

0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:18.640
<v Speaker 2>Let me say, I didn't the first time around. So

0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:22.799
<v Speaker 2>in that pre trial, and unfortunately they gave me too

0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:26.959
<v Speaker 2>much time to read my statements for the main trial

0:41:27.000 --> 0:41:29.879
<v Speaker 2>because I could write it off by heart. So when

0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:32.520
<v Speaker 2>they were saying, well, you said this, I was like, no,

0:41:32.640 --> 0:41:36.000
<v Speaker 2>on page four, I actually said that, So it was

0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:38.480
<v Speaker 2>probably you know it was I didn't realize that you

0:41:38.560 --> 0:41:39.680
<v Speaker 2>had to memorize it.

0:41:39.719 --> 0:41:43.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, that was an old, old skill that those tourn

0:41:43.680 --> 0:41:46.800
<v Speaker 1>detectives we learned verbatim and you had to You couldn't

0:41:46.840 --> 0:41:50.000
<v Speaker 1>refer to your statement, so you learned the whole whole

0:41:50.120 --> 0:41:52.920
<v Speaker 1>of your evidence. But it shouldn't really come down to

0:41:52.960 --> 0:41:57.439
<v Speaker 1>a memory test like that. And yeah, I gain. I

0:41:57.480 --> 0:41:59.600
<v Speaker 1>don't like beating up on the legal system because you

0:41:59.680 --> 0:42:01.680
<v Speaker 1>need it and you need the checks and balances and

0:42:01.680 --> 0:42:05.560
<v Speaker 1>I understand that, but I just hate seeing kids traumatize.

0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:09.799
<v Speaker 1>Let's move on something. If anything positive comes from this,

0:42:09.960 --> 0:42:15.239
<v Speaker 1>and sadly it's come after your children, but setting up

0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:17.120
<v Speaker 1>something that's going to change, And I just want to

0:42:17.160 --> 0:42:20.439
<v Speaker 1>read this as an article that's been written about the

0:42:20.480 --> 0:42:24.520
<v Speaker 1>type of work that you've done. So the Millthorpes advocacy

0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:28.720
<v Speaker 1>efforts were integral in expanding the Child's Sexual Offense's Evidence

0:42:28.760 --> 0:42:32.320
<v Speaker 1>Program to every district court and police district in regional

0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:35.640
<v Speaker 1>New South Wales in twenty twenty three. The program allows

0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:39.320
<v Speaker 1>young people to pre record their evidence, including examination, cross

0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:42.719
<v Speaker 1>examination and re examination in front of a judge and

0:42:42.800 --> 0:42:45.480
<v Speaker 1>lawyers without the jury present. This is done in the

0:42:45.520 --> 0:42:48.560
<v Speaker 1>timely manner, allowing victims to move more quickly into the

0:42:48.600 --> 0:42:53.520
<v Speaker 1>healing part of their journey. You've contributed to that. It's

0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:56.080
<v Speaker 1>pretty powerful. Do you want to break it down what

0:42:56.160 --> 0:42:59.400
<v Speaker 1>that actually means and what the improvements are so people

0:42:59.400 --> 0:43:02.120
<v Speaker 1>don't have to get through what you and your daughters

0:43:02.280 --> 0:43:02.640
<v Speaker 1>went through.

0:43:02.920 --> 0:43:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's it and look it was so Glenn had

0:43:05.480 --> 0:43:07.319
<v Speaker 2>actually mentioned during the trial that they were doing a

0:43:07.360 --> 0:43:11.799
<v Speaker 2>pilot program, so kids were given what was called a

0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:15.759
<v Speaker 2>witness intermediary, so somebody who would be there when they

0:43:15.760 --> 0:43:20.000
<v Speaker 2>were giving their evidence to police, So breaking down some

0:43:20.040 --> 0:43:22.719
<v Speaker 2>of those communication barriers, so I said earlier, you know,

0:43:22.800 --> 0:43:24.919
<v Speaker 2>for Rose, she didn't even understand some of the things

0:43:25.120 --> 0:43:27.399
<v Speaker 2>were happening, the language and all that sort of thing.

0:43:27.880 --> 0:43:30.200
<v Speaker 2>So it was the idea is that you're getting best

0:43:30.239 --> 0:43:33.879
<v Speaker 2>evidence from the kids because they've got this person there

0:43:33.920 --> 0:43:37.400
<v Speaker 2>who can help explain questions and those sorts of things.

0:43:38.040 --> 0:43:41.480
<v Speaker 2>And then so they quarter pointed, then what happens, so

0:43:41.560 --> 0:43:47.240
<v Speaker 2>that's all recorded within six months of that statement happening.

0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:53.520
<v Speaker 2>There's a quarter appointed solicitor who will cross examine the

0:43:53.600 --> 0:43:57.480
<v Speaker 2>children with the witness intermediary part of that process again,

0:43:58.680 --> 0:44:01.760
<v Speaker 2>and then they record and that is what is presented

0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:05.279
<v Speaker 2>to court. So instead of kids going and spending three

0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:08.880
<v Speaker 2>four five days on the stand, they're doing this instead.

0:44:09.520 --> 0:44:12.520
<v Speaker 2>And you know, for us, it was this no brainer

0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:16.080
<v Speaker 2>that you've got somebody there who can help the kids

0:44:16.120 --> 0:44:20.760
<v Speaker 2>participate equitably in the process. Because they've got their language

0:44:20.800 --> 0:44:24.359
<v Speaker 2>needs being met, they can move into that, As I said,

0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:29.320
<v Speaker 2>the survivor state more quickly, because you know, they're hanging

0:44:29.360 --> 0:44:32.600
<v Speaker 2>in his victimhoods. You know, for a number of years

0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:33.400
<v Speaker 2>as it turned.

0:44:33.200 --> 0:44:37.360
<v Speaker 1>Out, feeling the pressure of happened to provide the evidence

0:44:37.400 --> 0:44:37.759
<v Speaker 1>at court.

0:44:37.920 --> 0:44:40.799
<v Speaker 2>That's it and then they can kind of move on.

0:44:41.000 --> 0:44:44.080
<v Speaker 2>And the thing is that it's been independently reviewed a

0:44:44.120 --> 0:44:47.279
<v Speaker 2>couple of times now and the review process has said

0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:50.600
<v Speaker 2>that both sides of the law, so you know, prosecutors

0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:53.880
<v Speaker 2>and defenders have said that it is not breaching the

0:44:53.960 --> 0:44:57.680
<v Speaker 2>rights of the you know, the perpetrated to a fair trial.

0:44:58.040 --> 0:45:00.480
<v Speaker 2>And so you know, it was his no brainer that

0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:03.400
<v Speaker 2>was happening in Sydney Newcastle. So it came out to

0:45:03.440 --> 0:45:08.160
<v Speaker 2>Australia in twenty fifteen. It was reviewed in twenty eighteen,

0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:11.360
<v Speaker 2>and in twenty eighteen they said it would be expanded

0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:14.560
<v Speaker 2>across the state and it wasn't. And I was watching

0:45:15.080 --> 0:45:18.480
<v Speaker 2>and it wasn't expanded. And so I had been writing

0:45:18.560 --> 0:45:22.000
<v Speaker 2>letters to the Attorney General a number of times. Every

0:45:22.000 --> 0:45:26.719
<v Speaker 2>school holidays was my letter writing time. And you know,

0:45:26.760 --> 0:45:29.360
<v Speaker 2>we got up to twenty twenty two and I was

0:45:29.400 --> 0:45:31.640
<v Speaker 2>still getting the exact same letter back from them. And

0:45:31.719 --> 0:45:34.200
<v Speaker 2>we're very sorry that this has happened. We have this,

0:45:34.200 --> 0:45:36.759
<v Speaker 2>this and this in process, and I'm telling you that

0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:42.000
<v Speaker 2>doesn't work, and you know, with no intention of it

0:45:42.040 --> 0:45:48.480
<v Speaker 2>to be expanded. So the girls wanted to do a fundraiser.

0:45:48.600 --> 0:45:50.520
<v Speaker 2>So Rose wanted to do it. She wanted to write

0:45:50.520 --> 0:45:55.120
<v Speaker 2>around Australia. I don't know how much it was outruistic

0:45:55.200 --> 0:45:57.240
<v Speaker 2>or whether she just wanted to get out of school,

0:45:57.280 --> 0:46:01.000
<v Speaker 2>like still had the juries out, but she yeah, she

0:46:01.040 --> 0:46:03.920
<v Speaker 2>wanted to raise money for Brave Hearts, the child sexual

0:46:03.920 --> 0:46:07.640
<v Speaker 2>assault advocacy group, and so she wanted to do that

0:46:08.600 --> 0:46:10.200
<v Speaker 2>and I said, well, if you're going to do that

0:46:10.640 --> 0:46:14.000
<v Speaker 2>and you wanted to raise some awareness about something, what

0:46:14.040 --> 0:46:15.880
<v Speaker 2>would you do. And the two of them were sitting

0:46:15.880 --> 0:46:19.000
<v Speaker 2>together at the time, and they both said court is shit,

0:46:19.719 --> 0:46:25.280
<v Speaker 2>both of them. And so we talked about this program

0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:27.600
<v Speaker 2>and said this is something that could be available. Do

0:46:27.640 --> 0:46:29.719
<v Speaker 2>you think that would help? And the girl said yes,

0:46:29.760 --> 0:46:31.520
<v Speaker 2>And I said, well, why don't we raise awareness for that?

0:46:31.680 --> 0:46:35.520
<v Speaker 2>But then at that moment where oh, Roses only she

0:46:35.600 --> 0:46:39.479
<v Speaker 2>was thirteen turning fourteen at the time, and I thought

0:46:39.520 --> 0:46:42.120
<v Speaker 2>she can't you know, I looked into the legal side

0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:44.760
<v Speaker 2>of it, and I'm thinking, she can't tell her a story.

0:46:45.080 --> 0:46:49.240
<v Speaker 2>So when I told her that, she was pretty pissed off.

0:46:50.880 --> 0:46:53.320
<v Speaker 2>And then I wrote some emails and I was emailing

0:46:53.320 --> 0:46:57.080
<v Speaker 2>different organizations trying to find out more about the legal

0:46:57.120 --> 0:47:02.960
<v Speaker 2>side of it. I emailed Nina for now yeah previous,

0:47:03.160 --> 0:47:07.719
<v Speaker 2>very impressive voice, she's amazing, and I knew she'd been

0:47:07.760 --> 0:47:09.680
<v Speaker 2>involved in the let Us Speak campaign, so I just

0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:12.120
<v Speaker 2>emailed her. I did not expect to get anything back

0:47:12.120 --> 0:47:14.600
<v Speaker 2>from her, but in my email I said, this is us,

0:47:14.680 --> 0:47:18.239
<v Speaker 2>this is what's happened. There is a solution. This is

0:47:18.239 --> 0:47:23.239
<v Speaker 2>a solution, and they're not doing it anyway. Probably an

0:47:23.280 --> 0:47:27.480
<v Speaker 2>hour later I got an email back, can I give

0:47:27.520 --> 0:47:32.960
<v Speaker 2>you a call? And then this thing started. So we

0:47:33.000 --> 0:47:34.919
<v Speaker 2>went through it and we talked to her. I said,

0:47:35.560 --> 0:47:37.840
<v Speaker 2>and I had seen our local member at the time,

0:47:38.600 --> 0:47:42.560
<v Speaker 2>justin Clancy in Aubrey, and he was really supportive of

0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:45.400
<v Speaker 2>trying to get a petition through Parliament so that they

0:47:45.400 --> 0:47:48.719
<v Speaker 2>would have to debate it. You need twenty thousand signatures

0:47:50.000 --> 0:47:53.319
<v Speaker 2>and it just wasn't happening quick enough for me or

0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:57.000
<v Speaker 2>for any of us. And the petition was that the

0:47:57.120 --> 0:48:01.839
<v Speaker 2>Child Sexual Assault Evidence Scheme is extended to include all

0:48:01.960 --> 0:48:06.280
<v Speaker 2>children in regional New South Wales because it wasn't right anyway.

0:48:06.320 --> 0:48:12.360
<v Speaker 2>So Nina got on board and we started talking. Something

0:48:12.360 --> 0:48:14.160
<v Speaker 2>that she said to me, that's always stuck with me,

0:48:14.280 --> 0:48:16.839
<v Speaker 2>and she said, the process of telling the story needs

0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:19.600
<v Speaker 2>to be better than the story. And the way that

0:48:19.640 --> 0:48:25.200
<v Speaker 2>she cared for our children and our family is exceptional.

0:48:25.440 --> 0:48:29.479
<v Speaker 2>She's just an amazing survivor advocate and I just think

0:48:29.600 --> 0:48:34.960
<v Speaker 2>she's exceptional. And she yeah. So the story came out.

0:48:35.040 --> 0:48:38.799
<v Speaker 2>The Justice Shouldn't Hurt campaign was born, I think the

0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:42.800
<v Speaker 2>first day after the Girl's launchestory. And it wasn't that easy,

0:48:42.880 --> 0:48:46.440
<v Speaker 2>like we had to go through court, and you know,

0:48:46.600 --> 0:48:51.759
<v Speaker 2>fortunately News Court helped us with that so that Rose

0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:54.359
<v Speaker 2>could tell her story, and she did write a really

0:48:54.360 --> 0:48:57.160
<v Speaker 2>powerful letter to the court and she did say I

0:48:57.239 --> 0:48:59.319
<v Speaker 2>had a man telling me for a long time that

0:48:59.400 --> 0:49:01.480
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't allowed to talk and I wasn't allowed to

0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:03.880
<v Speaker 2>tell my story. Then I went to court and I

0:49:03.920 --> 0:49:06.120
<v Speaker 2>had men standing in front of me telling me that

0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:09.160
<v Speaker 2>I had that I had to tell my story. And

0:49:09.239 --> 0:49:11.440
<v Speaker 2>now you're telling me that I'm allowed to tell my

0:49:11.480 --> 0:49:13.440
<v Speaker 2>story again, you know.

0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:16.959
<v Speaker 1>And so sometimes it needs a clarity of a young

0:49:17.040 --> 0:49:20.200
<v Speaker 1>mind to break down what this is about. How do

0:49:20.239 --> 0:49:23.880
<v Speaker 1>you argue against the logic of a child that's it

0:49:24.000 --> 0:49:24.800
<v Speaker 1>those statements?

0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:29.480
<v Speaker 2>And so they did. They told the story and that

0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:32.319
<v Speaker 2>first day there were I think they got we got

0:49:32.320 --> 0:49:35.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty five thousand signatures. I think on the first day.

0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:39.200
<v Speaker 2>It was sixty nine thousand by the end of the year.

0:49:39.280 --> 0:49:42.880
<v Speaker 2>So it launched in the November and then on the

0:49:42.920 --> 0:49:48.200
<v Speaker 2>first of February we came up to Sydney and Dominique Perrete.

0:49:48.440 --> 0:49:53.040
<v Speaker 2>At the time he announced bipartisan agreement that it would

0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:55.719
<v Speaker 2>be expanded across in New South Wales. So sixty four

0:49:55.719 --> 0:49:59.799
<v Speaker 2>point three million dollars was promised to have Witness into

0:49:59.840 --> 0:50:02.760
<v Speaker 2>me year. He's available in every court in South Wales.

0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:06.680
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Yeah, And just the way that you explained that,

0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:08.759
<v Speaker 1>it just seems like a no brainer too, doesn't it.

0:50:09.120 --> 0:50:12.759
<v Speaker 2>How that was what people said, So anyone that was commenting,

0:50:13.080 --> 0:50:15.040
<v Speaker 2>and you know, we were a little bit worried about,

0:50:15.200 --> 0:50:16.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, some of the things that would come out,

0:50:16.840 --> 0:50:19.800
<v Speaker 2>and again, you know, the majority of people are amazing

0:50:19.840 --> 0:50:24.520
<v Speaker 2>and speak really you know, it's a no brainer. I reckon.

0:50:24.520 --> 0:50:27.840
<v Speaker 2>That was said so many times, it's a no brainer.

0:50:27.920 --> 0:50:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Why are they not doing this? But and when we did,

0:50:31.320 --> 0:50:35.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, have a meeting with the premiere at the time,

0:50:36.640 --> 0:50:42.680
<v Speaker 2>he you know, he had lots of kids and you

0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:47.560
<v Speaker 2>could see he was as a dad was actually disappointed

0:50:47.600 --> 0:50:50.120
<v Speaker 2>that he didn't know about it, And Brent, you know,

0:50:50.200 --> 0:50:52.360
<v Speaker 2>he's like, you don't know what you don't know, and

0:50:52.400 --> 0:50:54.160
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter where you are or what you do,

0:50:54.640 --> 0:50:57.120
<v Speaker 2>Like even as a police officer, it'd be people in

0:50:57.160 --> 0:50:57.960
<v Speaker 2>the police that don't know.

0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:03.640
<v Speaker 1>As I said, I was involved in these type of investigations.

0:51:03.680 --> 0:51:07.239
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, hearing it firsthand from someone like yourself and

0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:10.840
<v Speaker 1>relaying what your children went through and understanding that you

0:51:10.880 --> 0:51:14.120
<v Speaker 1>look at it and go what sort of society are

0:51:14.160 --> 0:51:21.640
<v Speaker 1>we that we retraumatize children in this way? So and like, well, firstly,

0:51:22.480 --> 0:51:26.879
<v Speaker 1>congratulate you, congratulate your girls and Nina and everyone else

0:51:26.920 --> 0:51:31.160
<v Speaker 1>involved in the campaign. What an important, important change that's

0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:33.880
<v Speaker 1>been made to help people so they don't have to

0:51:33.880 --> 0:51:36.160
<v Speaker 1>go through what you and your daughters went.

0:51:36.360 --> 0:51:38.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you know Nina is sort of now doing

0:51:39.160 --> 0:51:41.600
<v Speaker 2>more advocacy in that space too, with the next sort

0:51:41.600 --> 0:51:44.600
<v Speaker 2>of wave of justice shouldn't hurt, as you've heard, and

0:51:44.640 --> 0:51:48.440
<v Speaker 2>I think Nina powersource.

0:51:49.480 --> 0:51:52.239
<v Speaker 1>I walked away after she was seeing in that chair

0:51:52.239 --> 0:51:54.440
<v Speaker 1>that you're sitting in after having her on the podcast,

0:51:54.440 --> 0:51:58.520
<v Speaker 1>and I was just amazed at how strong and passionate

0:51:58.560 --> 0:52:03.080
<v Speaker 1>she was and how articulate she could explain explain things. So, yeah,

0:52:03.160 --> 0:52:08.160
<v Speaker 1>you teamed up with a good person there. The type

0:52:08.160 --> 0:52:11.440
<v Speaker 1>of impact it has on your girls when they're victims

0:52:11.480 --> 0:52:14.520
<v Speaker 1>of child sexual abuse like that, even the way that

0:52:14.600 --> 0:52:19.359
<v Speaker 1>they looked at or reacted around their grandfathers or other

0:52:19.440 --> 0:52:22.719
<v Speaker 1>men within your family and the whole it steals away

0:52:22.800 --> 0:52:25.239
<v Speaker 1>some of their child or doesn't it. It does been

0:52:26.120 --> 0:52:27.600
<v Speaker 1>victims of that type of abuse.

0:52:27.840 --> 0:52:34.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it does. But I think I contacted a group,

0:52:35.360 --> 0:52:40.920
<v Speaker 2>Vocal Victims of Crime Advocacy League. They're based out of Newcastle.

0:52:42.280 --> 0:52:44.160
<v Speaker 2>I got in contact with the lady from there. I

0:52:44.200 --> 0:52:46.160
<v Speaker 2>can't remember her name, and I wish I could, because

0:52:46.160 --> 0:52:50.680
<v Speaker 2>she was very She said to me, you know, you

0:52:50.800 --> 0:52:54.279
<v Speaker 2>go from victim to survivor, and then you survive and

0:52:54.280 --> 0:52:56.880
<v Speaker 2>then you thrive, and then you thrive and then you

0:52:56.960 --> 0:53:04.080
<v Speaker 2>inspire and way put and you know, I've seen them

0:53:04.120 --> 0:53:09.319
<v Speaker 2>move through that and again, like they are kids, and

0:53:09.360 --> 0:53:11.799
<v Speaker 2>they do have messy rooms and sometimes they're you know,

0:53:11.920 --> 0:53:13.239
<v Speaker 2>really really upset me.

0:53:13.320 --> 0:53:14.440
<v Speaker 1>Do you want me to give a share that?

0:53:17.360 --> 0:53:20.520
<v Speaker 2>But you know the majority of the time they are

0:53:20.600 --> 0:53:26.200
<v Speaker 2>living really good life. Some people think that because we've

0:53:26.239 --> 0:53:30.680
<v Speaker 2>done this advocacy work, that we are living in this space.

0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:33.319
<v Speaker 2>This is not a place that we ever thought we

0:53:33.360 --> 0:53:41.640
<v Speaker 2>would be. Annoys me when people say it. The thing

0:53:41.760 --> 0:53:47.520
<v Speaker 2>is that that you can't know something and then in

0:53:47.600 --> 0:53:51.440
<v Speaker 2>good conscience not do something about it if you've got

0:53:51.440 --> 0:53:57.520
<v Speaker 2>the capacity, and we could, so we did. My kids

0:53:57.600 --> 0:54:01.719
<v Speaker 2>have mostly good days. I watched Rose, you know, the

0:54:02.000 --> 0:54:05.440
<v Speaker 2>nearly you know, sixteen and a half year old writing

0:54:05.800 --> 0:54:09.920
<v Speaker 2>different waves of her journey because her understanding has changed

0:54:09.960 --> 0:54:14.240
<v Speaker 2>over time about what happened, and you know what that means,

0:54:14.320 --> 0:54:17.720
<v Speaker 2>and you know that that's been an interesting journey to watch.

0:54:19.680 --> 0:54:23.439
<v Speaker 2>But most days are good. That's the reality. Most days

0:54:23.440 --> 0:54:32.520
<v Speaker 2>are good. We've had people step up in our life,

0:54:32.560 --> 0:54:37.240
<v Speaker 2>and we've had people step out, and that's okay because

0:54:37.640 --> 0:54:44.319
<v Speaker 2>I think when you are passionate about something and you

0:54:44.400 --> 0:54:47.080
<v Speaker 2>know it's right, then you've just got to do it.

0:54:48.080 --> 0:54:51.319
<v Speaker 1>You made a comment earlier on that sometimes you've got

0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:54.000
<v Speaker 1>to screen that allow us to get things done. And

0:54:54.480 --> 0:54:58.680
<v Speaker 1>I think what you articulated there is that you've experienced it.

0:54:59.280 --> 0:55:01.239
<v Speaker 1>You had the so that you had the energy, you

0:55:01.280 --> 0:55:04.680
<v Speaker 1>had the passion, had the ability to make a difference.

0:55:04.680 --> 0:55:06.560
<v Speaker 1>And I think the world is a better place when

0:55:06.840 --> 0:55:10.160
<v Speaker 1>people like you you step up. But the thing that

0:55:10.200 --> 0:55:15.000
<v Speaker 1>I've seen a scene about you and our communications is

0:55:15.040 --> 0:55:19.400
<v Speaker 1>that you're not going through life as a victim. You're

0:55:19.440 --> 0:55:22.640
<v Speaker 1>making making the difference and you can still laugh and

0:55:24.000 --> 0:55:25.839
<v Speaker 1>you come in here, you can laugh, you can cry,

0:55:26.000 --> 0:55:28.759
<v Speaker 1>but yeah, you're still experiencing life. But I think the

0:55:28.840 --> 0:55:31.840
<v Speaker 1>kids have been fortunate to have someone like yourself and

0:55:32.719 --> 0:55:35.160
<v Speaker 1>Brent aren't. They're they're supporting them, and it looks like

0:55:35.200 --> 0:55:38.040
<v Speaker 1>you've got through this or getting through it, I should

0:55:38.080 --> 0:55:39.200
<v Speaker 1>say as a family.

0:55:39.400 --> 0:55:41.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Oh look, I don't get it right all the time.

0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:45.440
<v Speaker 2>I can tell you that I don't, but I don't know.

0:55:45.560 --> 0:55:46.480
<v Speaker 1>That's what Brent was, So.

0:55:48.600 --> 0:55:54.040
<v Speaker 2>I I why would you give someone like that more power?

0:55:54.239 --> 0:55:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? I like your avitude.

0:55:56.960 --> 0:56:01.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've deliberately chosen not to hate because that's a

0:56:01.920 --> 0:56:06.319
<v Speaker 2>really strong emotion that takes a lot of energy. I

0:56:06.360 --> 0:56:10.880
<v Speaker 2>don't think I can forgive, but I can be indifferent.

0:56:11.920 --> 0:56:14.759
<v Speaker 1>The difference are very powerful, Yeah.

0:56:14.200 --> 0:56:19.240
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's what I need to do my kids. Rose.

0:56:20.520 --> 0:56:26.800
<v Speaker 2>Rose is very forgiving because she's a if you don't forgive,

0:56:26.840 --> 0:56:30.839
<v Speaker 2>you don't grow type person. And I love that about her.

0:56:32.320 --> 0:56:39.200
<v Speaker 2>But she won't forget. Yeah, everyone's on a different journey,

0:56:39.600 --> 0:56:42.319
<v Speaker 2>but we all have made a really deliberate choice to

0:56:42.400 --> 0:56:44.280
<v Speaker 2>live a good life.

0:56:44.680 --> 0:56:48.480
<v Speaker 1>That's that's I don't want to use the word revenge,

0:56:48.520 --> 0:56:54.000
<v Speaker 1>but that's the way that you you're insignificant, put put

0:56:54.080 --> 0:56:58.000
<v Speaker 1>in the past. Now you've got some other things that

0:56:58.040 --> 0:57:04.560
<v Speaker 1>you're working on too. Yeah, Gluton, Gluton for punishment. Are

0:57:04.640 --> 0:57:07.480
<v Speaker 1>you you looking at running running for parliament?

0:57:07.600 --> 0:57:10.840
<v Speaker 2>I am. Yeah. Someone said to me today at the airport,

0:57:11.880 --> 0:57:15.080
<v Speaker 2>a parent of an ex student. He said, oh, what

0:57:15.120 --> 0:57:17.600
<v Speaker 2>are you up? Chair said, I've decided to run for parliament.

0:57:17.680 --> 0:57:19.600
<v Speaker 2>He goes, oh, are you doing local government? Oh no,

0:57:19.680 --> 0:57:23.280
<v Speaker 2>I went straight straight to the top anyway. He's like,

0:57:23.320 --> 0:57:25.720
<v Speaker 2>what are you doing? So we live in Pharah. I

0:57:25.760 --> 0:57:31.560
<v Speaker 2>was like, yeah, we do anyway. So look, I I

0:57:32.240 --> 0:57:35.000
<v Speaker 2>there was a tweet that somebody put out last year

0:57:35.040 --> 0:57:39.320
<v Speaker 2>that was really not nice and didn't reflect me as

0:57:39.360 --> 0:57:42.800
<v Speaker 2>a person or anybody that I knew, and was really unrelatable.

0:57:43.240 --> 0:57:45.400
<v Speaker 2>And I'll just look at federal politics at the moment

0:57:45.440 --> 0:57:49.800
<v Speaker 2>and go, there's no there's no teachers in there, there's

0:57:49.840 --> 0:57:52.320
<v Speaker 2>no police in there. Well there are, but they were

0:57:52.360 --> 0:57:58.040
<v Speaker 2>a really long long time ago. There's no regular people who.

0:57:59.280 --> 0:57:59.440
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:57:59.560 --> 0:58:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Wanted to just make sure that people are thriving and

0:58:02.960 --> 0:58:08.120
<v Speaker 2>regional communities get overlooked. They do, and regional equity is

0:58:08.160 --> 0:58:10.960
<v Speaker 2>a real issue. And this, you know, the Justice Shouldn't

0:58:11.000 --> 0:58:13.520
<v Speaker 2>Hurt campaign, and seeing what we had to do to

0:58:13.600 --> 0:58:19.600
<v Speaker 2>get justice, you know, it was glaringly obvious that there's

0:58:20.000 --> 0:58:23.400
<v Speaker 2>things that are missed out on because of our regional location.

0:58:24.000 --> 0:58:26.520
<v Speaker 2>And we live in inner city, so you know, for

0:58:26.680 --> 0:58:31.200
<v Speaker 2>people further out west and you know, in more remote areas,

0:58:32.000 --> 0:58:35.080
<v Speaker 2>they're missing out on things. And I don't think that's fair.

0:58:35.760 --> 0:58:39.920
<v Speaker 1>That's fair. Now going in the politics, Well, you've shown

0:58:39.960 --> 0:58:43.760
<v Speaker 1>that you've got the got the energy, and you've got

0:58:43.800 --> 0:58:46.560
<v Speaker 1>the capacity and the sense of justice. So I don't

0:58:46.560 --> 0:58:49.680
<v Speaker 1>think that's a bad starting point in the politics. And

0:58:49.920 --> 0:58:52.840
<v Speaker 1>I take on board what you're saying that people that

0:58:54.760 --> 0:58:58.680
<v Speaker 1>people in touch with what goes on in communities from

0:58:58.680 --> 0:59:02.040
<v Speaker 1>a regional point of view, but also teaching, and there's

0:59:02.080 --> 0:59:03.840
<v Speaker 1>a lot and we're going off off track a little

0:59:03.880 --> 0:59:06.520
<v Speaker 1>bit here, but so much in the media at the

0:59:06.560 --> 0:59:09.959
<v Speaker 1>moment about youth crime and different things and the way

0:59:10.000 --> 0:59:13.720
<v Speaker 1>to deal with youth crime. I've always thought, on law

0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:16.320
<v Speaker 1>and all the issues, put money into education, because I

0:59:16.360 --> 0:59:19.960
<v Speaker 1>think education can do so much good pointing people in

0:59:20.080 --> 0:59:25.280
<v Speaker 1>the right direction. And if you do get in politics,

0:59:25.280 --> 0:59:26.960
<v Speaker 1>this is just a theory. So you can take this

0:59:27.000 --> 0:59:29.840
<v Speaker 1>one into we want to get tough on crime, Let's

0:59:29.880 --> 0:59:33.720
<v Speaker 1>look at how much crime emanates from child sexual abuse.

0:59:34.360 --> 0:59:36.640
<v Speaker 1>Let's look at how many people are in prison because

0:59:36.640 --> 0:59:41.560
<v Speaker 1>there abuse and as children and have ended up in prison.

0:59:41.640 --> 0:59:44.880
<v Speaker 1>So how do we really fight fight crime? Well, let's

0:59:44.880 --> 0:59:48.840
<v Speaker 1>fight something that causes a lot of crime. It's it's

0:59:48.880 --> 0:59:52.800
<v Speaker 1>not a theory, it's the statistics are out there. It's ridiculous.

0:59:53.240 --> 0:59:56.520
<v Speaker 1>It's ridiculous, and we've got to look at things like that.

0:59:56.880 --> 1:00:00.200
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, where what's the seat you run for?

1:00:00.440 --> 1:00:03.680
<v Speaker 2>So Fara? So it's one hundred and twenty six thousand

1:00:03.720 --> 1:00:11.280
<v Speaker 2>square kilometers yep, yeah, just east of Auburry, Gingerlic sort

1:00:11.280 --> 1:00:13.640
<v Speaker 2>of and then all the way to South Astralian border

1:00:14.880 --> 1:00:18.680
<v Speaker 2>up through Griffith and places like that. Danili Quinn Yeah,

1:00:18.720 --> 1:00:20.760
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, I.

1:00:20.680 --> 1:00:24.040
<v Speaker 1>Know the areas I've been down, yeah in my policing

1:00:24.120 --> 1:00:27.680
<v Speaker 1>days and different things down that way. So oh look,

1:00:27.760 --> 1:00:31.360
<v Speaker 1>good good luck to here you and I want to

1:00:31.360 --> 1:00:34.120
<v Speaker 1>say too, thank you, not just thanks for coming on

1:00:34.200 --> 1:00:38.080
<v Speaker 1>the podcast that's given, but the fact that you have

1:00:38.240 --> 1:00:41.360
<v Speaker 1>made a difference in the justice system, and it takes

1:00:41.400 --> 1:00:45.320
<v Speaker 1>people taking a stand, and what your daughters have stood

1:00:45.400 --> 1:00:47.880
<v Speaker 1>up to. And I said to you, I'm not sure

1:00:47.880 --> 1:00:49.920
<v Speaker 1>if I said it on the podcast, but I'll say it.

1:00:50.000 --> 1:00:53.160
<v Speaker 1>I know I said it to you off Mike. The

1:00:53.160 --> 1:00:56.120
<v Speaker 1>way that your girls are presenting themselves like full credit

1:00:56.200 --> 1:00:58.240
<v Speaker 1>to full credit to should.

1:00:57.960 --> 1:01:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Be proud of them. I am. I am. Yeah, good stuff,

1:01:03.360 --> 1:01:08.640
<v Speaker 2>all right, thanks very much, Thank you.