Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Michelle,
Speaker 1: Welcome back Part two. It's good to see you smile.
Speaker 1: Like the subject we're talking about such a heavy, heavy subject.
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes people are surprised with the name
Speaker 1: of the guests that we come on here, that we
Speaker 1: can still sit here and have a laugh. But you've
Speaker 1: got to be able to laugh through situations like this
Speaker 1: just to survive. Yeah, is that a fair.
Speaker 2: Fairment of it? It is? And look, I think I
Speaker 2: know I just have this determination that we know that
Speaker 2: the nature of abuse is about power and the best
Speaker 2: way to take someone's power back is to just be
Speaker 2: indifferent to them and to live a good life. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in spite of everything. And I just think that that's yeah.
Speaker 1: Try Well, in part one, we got a sense of
Speaker 1: the impact on you and the shock of this situation
Speaker 1: evolving where your daughter's come to you and reported that
Speaker 1: she's been sexually abused and that's impacted on another daughter.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the court system, and in
Speaker 1: our conversations we had the other day, I got the
Speaker 1: sense called me very perceptive. I've got the sense there
Speaker 1: was a certain amount of frustrations with the courts. And
Speaker 1: I think you said something that that's not a justice sysm.
Speaker 1: You've worked out courts and not justice system. It's a
Speaker 1: legal system. I've heard too many victims of crime telling
Speaker 1: me that exact thing, and I think I share that
Speaker 1: share that view. But before we before we move in
Speaker 1: to talk about the process, because it took two and
Speaker 1: a half years for it to get to court, there
Speaker 1: was something else in our conversation that we said that Yeah,
Speaker 1: it impacted on me, just you telling me the story
Speaker 1: and it was about. We clarified before the start of
Speaker 1: the interview that your daughter's happy for us to talk
Speaker 1: about it, but Pip, your daughter was so affected by it.
Speaker 1: She's saying that she didn't want to live.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And look, that was the first time she
Speaker 2: mentioned that she was ten and she didn't just say
Speaker 2: I don't want to bear live anymore. She told me
Speaker 2: how she wanted things to go. And you know, as
Speaker 2: a as a teacher too, like that's one of the
Speaker 2: first things when you have a kid, say something, you know, oh,
Speaker 2: do you have a plan? And she did. She had
Speaker 2: a plan and she was ten, and you know, the
Speaker 2: impact on her mental health was significant, and you know
Speaker 2: it was ongoing. So one of the things that she
Speaker 2: found really difficult was that with counselors and things like that,
Speaker 2: when you're waiting so long to go to court. The
Speaker 2: Sexual Assault Services really about they're amazing counselors, but she
Speaker 2: had four different ones in two and a half years.
Speaker 2: So she was sick of people. She already had issues
Speaker 2: with people leaving her because we'd had you know, Jen
Speaker 2: had disappeared from her life, and then she had, you know,
Speaker 2: these counselors who were meant to be helping her. She'd
Speaker 2: develop her rapport with them and then they'd go into
Speaker 2: something else, and you know, that's not their fault, that
Speaker 2: is not their fault. But we just saw this really
Speaker 2: steady decline in her mental health and how she was
Speaker 2: and she was isolated from friends. You know, there was
Speaker 2: so much going on for her. Yeah, so just before
Speaker 2: we went to court in Sydney, so you know, two
Speaker 2: and a half years later, it was probably about it
Speaker 2: was the March I think was Easter weekend in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: and she had been completely irrational at the shops. We
Speaker 2: were at mum and Dad's place in Kutamundra. We've been
Speaker 2: in the shops. She wanted to buy something that was
Speaker 2: just probably what I referred to as happy meal, you know,
Speaker 2: toys like rubbish, and I said no and she carried on.
Speaker 2: It was just completely irrational for the situation anyway, I
Speaker 2: knew were sort of on a backslide. So we we
Speaker 2: were walking home and we stopped at a corner and
Speaker 2: she just looked me doad in the iron and she said,
Speaker 2: I'm so She looked behind and then she looked me
Speaker 2: down in the iron and said, I'm so sorry. Mum
Speaker 2: and she went to run out and there was a
Speaker 2: car coming around the corner and it was just like
Speaker 2: she was in so much pain. It was just so
Speaker 2: much pain. And there was part of me was like, oh,
Speaker 2: why are we doing this, Like we shouldn't be putting
Speaker 2: her through this, And then there was another part of
Speaker 2: me that knew that her personality is that she would
Speaker 2: go into that whole of you know, I didn't go
Speaker 2: through with this, and that means that nothing happened and
Speaker 2: nothing changed. And so it was this we were trying
Speaker 2: to balance, you know, do we put our kids through
Speaker 2: this court process or do we not never expecting it
Speaker 2: to be what it was. You know, we had a
Speaker 2: balcony when we were in Sydney, and she couldn't be
Speaker 2: on that balcony like we weren't allowed to she couldn't
Speaker 2: be out of our sight. It was pretty Yeah, it
Speaker 2: was pretty scary.
Speaker 1: I can't even comprehend what you're going through as parents,
Speaker 1: seeing that ten year old going through that type of
Speaker 1: type of trauma.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even the services you know, at that time,
Speaker 2: so as I said, the Sexual Assault Service said this
Speaker 2: is actually beyond descope like this is and I could
Speaker 2: completely appreciate that I worked in well being, and I
Speaker 2: was very prepared for them to say that. We went
Speaker 2: to CAMS, which is the Child Adolescent Mental Health Mental
Speaker 2: Health Service, and you know, here's this kid who's she
Speaker 2: just turned eleven at that point, and she was going
Speaker 2: to CAMS at the same time as there was a
Speaker 2: drug and alcohol support group there. So she would turn
Speaker 2: up in a room full of you know, all of
Speaker 2: these people who were seeking support for an addiction. It
Speaker 2: was just, yeah, it was just terrific. It was really
Speaker 2: bad look and she sort of she struggled with that
Speaker 2: for probably the next five years. So she was about fifteen,
Speaker 2: and you know, things went pretty poorly. Pips really good
Speaker 2: at describing things, and you know, I've said, you know,
Speaker 2: she's a great little writer, and she said this one day,
Speaker 2: you know, I just feel like I'm down in a
Speaker 2: hole and i can see everyone up there, but I'm
Speaker 2: just too tired. I'm too tired. Everything was very weighty.
Speaker 2: You know, she's at the moment, you know, and for
Speaker 2: the last few years she's just you know, kicking goals.
Speaker 2: She's doing really well. She does what she needs to
Speaker 2: do to be, you know, to live a good life.
Speaker 2: But it has been tricky, and she's been very open
Speaker 2: in talking about it, and I think that's really important
Speaker 2: that she can be like that and she shares that
Speaker 2: with people. She shared that as part of her story,
Speaker 2: you know, when she's been, you know, publicly speaking about
Speaker 2: her story, and I think that, you know, it shows
Speaker 2: how strong she is and where she's got to.
Speaker 1: Oh, most yeah, most definitely. I think the thing that
Speaker 1: comes across to me you're articulating what she's going through,
Speaker 1: what you're going through as a family, is that it's
Speaker 1: not just the crime doesn't stop when the offense has stopped.
Speaker 1: The crime permeates its way through years and years of
Speaker 1: their life, if not their whole life. The type of
Speaker 1: impact that this childhood sexual abuse, the process, the process
Speaker 1: took two and a half years to get to court.
Speaker 1: Now you've made a point to me before that how
Speaker 1: long is two and a half years in a young
Speaker 1: person's life, in the child's life, it would seem like
Speaker 1: a lifetime.
Speaker 2: Well, for Rose, it was a third of her life.
Speaker 1: The third of a life going through going through this
Speaker 1: and trying to get justice. And she's probably confused what
Speaker 1: even justice is about. Let's just stopping this, making this
Speaker 1: bad man get punished, which would confuse a child. How
Speaker 1: do you even explain that to a child? But two
Speaker 1: and a half years it just seems like an extraordinary
Speaker 1: long time to wait for the matter to go the court.
Speaker 1: So that's from the point that he's charged. Yep, now
Speaker 1: in the country town, not sure of the circumstances. Was
Speaker 1: he still living within the community. So they've been sexually assaulted,
Speaker 1: he's been charged, and then his life, for all intents
Speaker 1: and purposes, is going on unimpeded, and their kids trying
Speaker 1: to make sense of, well, we told you what this
Speaker 1: horrible man did to us, Why is he still walking
Speaker 1: the streets?
Speaker 2: And we had to put protections in place around them
Speaker 2: in terms of if we go to the supermarket and
Speaker 2: you see leon, these are the things that you need
Speaker 2: to do and say, you know, prepare them for all
Speaker 2: of that. You know that we just didn't. You didn't
Speaker 2: think that that would ever happen, and fortunately we didn't.
Speaker 2: We didn't ever see it, We didn't ever run into it.
Speaker 2: And as much as I think it's you know, it
Speaker 2: was crap that he was out. It was a crap.
Speaker 2: How do you live a good life when you're facing
Speaker 2: those charges? You know, there's part of me that goes, well,
Speaker 2: you know, you're still sort of he wasn't living a
Speaker 2: great life. But I did hate that we had to
Speaker 2: put these things around the girls. And you know, have
Speaker 2: a bit of a script. I suppose, you know, if
Speaker 2: we're in bigw and I'm in this section and you've
Speaker 2: gone to this section and you see him, this is
Speaker 2: what you have to say, even though there were a
Speaker 2: vos and things like that in place, you know, to
Speaker 2: try and it was just, yeah, it was just another layer.
Speaker 2: It was just another layer that you had to add.
Speaker 1: It's never ending. And you made the point that instead
Speaker 1: of going to dancing or netball or playing sport in
Speaker 1: the afternoon, so your children will going to see counselors. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then and the recall, the kids would come up
Speaker 1: with more information than it'd be passed on to the police.
Speaker 1: It was just never ending.
Speaker 2: And I do like if I had my time again,
Speaker 2: I probably would have I probably would have been more
Speaker 2: proactive in letting Glenn as a detective know, look, just
Speaker 2: letting you know this is what's been said, but no
Speaker 2: one sort of explains that pros And it's definitely no
Speaker 2: disrespect to the people who were involved in our case
Speaker 2: because we had a cracking team. And I say that
Speaker 2: because of the way that they engage with us. But
Speaker 2: you just don't know. I probably could have gone back
Speaker 2: seven eight nine, you know, and multiple times.
Speaker 1: Who has told you yea, he did this to me
Speaker 1: or he did that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But you kind of go, oh, well, it's sort
Speaker 2: of all we just know that he did it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And as a parent, you're balancing, Okay, we want justice,
Speaker 1: we want a person accountable, but you're also looking at
Speaker 1: how how many times are you going to traumatize you
Speaker 1: the court? Then seeking justice shouldn't be retraumatizing. Tell us
Speaker 1: about the court experience, break it right down, like, but
Speaker 1: what people don't understand. They think, Okay, just go to court,
Speaker 1: you turn up, they tell you to get there at
Speaker 1: ten o'clock and you'll give your evidence and all be over.
Speaker 1: It's nothing like that. You had to come up to
Speaker 1: Sydney as a family rent a place.
Speaker 2: Well was even before that, so you know, we would
Speaker 2: see his name in the court listening and Brent would
Speaker 2: go and we had no idea what a mention was like,
Speaker 2: we just didn't know.
Speaker 1: I'd say this cynically, I think the mention is a
Speaker 1: way forlicens to get extra money. Half the time, I
Speaker 1: wonder how many mentions can be on my.
Speaker 2: Way over seventy mentions? Yeah, like it was. It was
Speaker 2: just it was hideous and it you know. So we'd
Speaker 2: go and and Brent would turn up and do a man.
Speaker 2: There was one particular day that he went to the mansion.
Speaker 1: So I just clarify so people do understand what the
Speaker 1: mention is. That a person has been charged, they're bailed
Speaker 1: to appear, or they're they're remanded to appear on a
Speaker 1: certain date. They turn up and the mention is, okay,
Speaker 1: how's the case coming along? Is a brief going to
Speaker 1: be served? And it just drags.
Speaker 2: On and we need some extra time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the defense, Yeah, will turn up and it was
Speaker 1: sometimes it's a prosecution. We need some extra time, and
Speaker 1: so then it gets put back in the list again
Speaker 1: time and time again from people going through the situation.
Speaker 1: You're going through. Your life is hinging on what happens
Speaker 1: on this court matter. Like that, everything that you're doing
Speaker 1: in life is around what's going to happen in this
Speaker 1: court matter. And the amount of time go anywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to stay, you have to be available
Speaker 2: just in case it becomes more than a mention. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So you know we had so Brent was going to
Speaker 2: them and eventually, you know, what what's this mentioned about?
Speaker 2: What is that? So you know, it was explained to
Speaker 2: us exactly what you've just said now, So we stopped
Speaker 2: going to that and then we so the solicitor who
Speaker 2: was working the case on behalf of the crown, and
Speaker 2: I do say our solicitor was Nat and Nat was
Speaker 2: fabulous and she was on board sort of from the beginning.
Speaker 2: She could speed read. I thought that was amazing. You know,
Speaker 2: she was just she was incredible, and she knew the
Speaker 2: case inside and out. She was probably the most consistent
Speaker 2: person from that legal side for us. Obviously there was Glenn.
Speaker 2: You know, I had Glenn called me one day at
Speaker 2: school to let me know that he'd received a letter
Speaker 2: from the solicitor, the defendants solicitor, and you know, I
Speaker 2: needed to stop telling people what he had done to
Speaker 2: my children, which I certainly wasn't out there telling the community.
Speaker 2: It was very targeted, as we talked about earlier, and
Speaker 2: you know, I, yeah, so he was saying all this
Speaker 2: and I actually was really cranky about that.
Speaker 1: I'd understand why you yeah cranky about that, and I
Speaker 1: get cranky about that. You're telling you're trying to protect kids.
Speaker 2: And he was another person in the community that we knew.
Speaker 2: We were connected to this guy, and I was like, well,
Speaker 2: you chose to defend him. But you know what I
Speaker 2: did Gary, I asked Glenn, I said, how much does
Speaker 2: it cost for them to send a letter? And he's like,
Speaker 2: what do you mean? I said, well, how much does
Speaker 2: every letter cost? And he said, oh, three hundred more
Speaker 2: than that. I said, well, every time he sends a letter,
Speaker 2: can you reply and have a question at the end?
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: I said, if he is found not guilty, at least
Speaker 2: I will have pleasure in the fact that he's had
Speaker 2: to pay for it. Because that was the biggest tight
Speaker 2: asses you've ever met. And you know, I was just like,
Speaker 2: where do you get your wins? That's where you get
Speaker 2: your wins?
Speaker 1: What a brilliant strategy. I like, I don't think it's illegal.
Speaker 2: Yeah anyway, So yeah, all that sort of stuff was happening.
Speaker 2: So we had NAT and that was based in Sydney.
Speaker 2: We were in Aubury. We had the barrister. The Crown
Speaker 2: Barrister was based in Wogga. His name was Vince and
Speaker 2: he was exceptional with the kids, had a really great
Speaker 2: manner with them. So we did start the case. They
Speaker 2: did start the trial in Aubury. They started the trial
Speaker 2: and I think that was sort of the August. It was.
Speaker 2: It was nearly two years at that point. So we
Speaker 2: went into the courthouse in Aubrey. We did practices. The
Speaker 2: girls went in there to show you know, where the
Speaker 2: room was, and that was that was a shit moment,
Speaker 2: Like for me, I just thought, what am I doing?
Speaker 2: You Like, this is not like Year ten mock trial.
Speaker 2: That was my last experience of a court house. It's intimidating,
Speaker 2: it was, and you know, especially there on a Monday,
Speaker 2: because there's some interesting characters in the hallways on a Monday.
Speaker 2: And we yeah, so we went in and they did
Speaker 2: their practices and them the day that we went Brent
Speaker 2: had organized everything with military precision because he likes to
Speaker 2: you know, be on time and in control, and this
Speaker 2: was totally outside of our control. But he could organize
Speaker 2: getting the girls into the courthouse without having to see him,
Speaker 2: you know, So we had friends lined up and helping
Speaker 2: with that. Anyway, we went in and he was sitting
Speaker 2: across the aisle, you know, he was sitting across the
Speaker 2: aisle from from us, and I was just looking, thing,
Speaker 2: where is the protection, Like there is nothing, there's nothing
Speaker 2: here for these kids. So this man who had, you know,
Speaker 2: spent all this time making them feel horrible, was across
Speaker 2: the isle and he was smug. He just sat there
Speaker 2: and he looked and it was just yuck. Anyway, So
Speaker 2: it was it was frightening for the kids. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Look.
Speaker 2: And so my brother actually came along. My brother is seven
Speaker 2: years younger than me, and he had lived with us
Speaker 2: for a period of time and knew these people as well,
Speaker 2: and he sort of he recognized that the kids were scared,
Speaker 2: and you know, he sort of kept looking at the
Speaker 2: window of you know, this room that we're in, and
Speaker 2: he goes, oh, is that him? And I was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's gone, Geezy looks old. I was like, yeah he does,
Speaker 2: Yeah he does. And I could sort of pick up
Speaker 2: where he's going. He said, I reckon, he looks a
Speaker 2: bit fat too. He's like got old and fat. And
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah he has. And he's like he's
Speaker 2: just an old, fat motherfucker like me. Anyway, the girl
Speaker 2: started giggling, and there was you know, some other people
Speaker 2: in the room as well at the time. Everyone's sort
Speaker 2: of giggling, and he was named the motherfucker from therefore,
Speaker 2: like the girls have never used his name, that's what
Speaker 2: his name is. And it just was enough to make
Speaker 2: them feel a little bit powerful.
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying there, and they can they've
Speaker 1: got control here, they've got your support them. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: can call it this like what we want to call
Speaker 1: him because he doesn't deserve any respect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1: I get so.
Speaker 2: You know, that was good and so you take your
Speaker 2: little wins like that. Unfortunately, for reasons that is, they're
Speaker 2: too unbelievable and I really don't think people believe it.
Speaker 2: We ended up not going through with their case in Aubrey.
Speaker 2: They decided it would be best if it was moved
Speaker 2: to Sydney.
Speaker 1: Who decided that.
Speaker 2: So there was a bit of back room banter between
Speaker 2: the judge and you know, the barristers about a previous
Speaker 2: case that had been had and one of the barristers
Speaker 2: the defense barris so he actually was defending a very
Speaker 2: well known criminal up here in Sydney later in that week,
Speaker 2: and so if they started the trial, they they wouldn't
Speaker 2: be able to complete it at that time, and so
Speaker 2: it was a very good out for the Crown to say, well,
Speaker 2: let's not start it. They felt that it would be
Speaker 2: better if we were not, if we didn't have our
Speaker 2: trial in that place.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, it goes to Sydney. A couple of
Speaker 1: things about Sydney and these really hit home to me.
Speaker 1: You're going to move the whole family up here for
Speaker 1: four or five weeks. I think that we.
Speaker 2: Thought we were going to be here for two weeks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it drags on and on the court matter, your
Speaker 1: daughters are going in and you're basically handing them over
Speaker 1: to people, and you're not allowed into court while they're
Speaker 1: giving evidence. One of your daughters was in the witness
Speaker 1: box for five days or giving evidence for five days
Speaker 1: and you can't be present.
Speaker 2: And that was just during the trial. So we had
Speaker 2: to have the pre trial because they were trying, they
Speaker 2: were trying to get the cases separated. So and I
Speaker 2: don't think people understand that happens a lot, particularly with
Speaker 2: child sex cases. So what they and it used to
Speaker 2: be very frequent and unfortunately the Royal Commission sort of
Speaker 2: one of their recommendations is that this is a process
Speaker 2: that's looked at. But what they used to do is say, well,
Speaker 2: you can't you know, even though these girls or sisters
Speaker 2: were trying the case separately, because there might have been
Speaker 2: collusion or concoction or whatever. So they did that fancy
Speaker 2: word GUARDI one of those, so the trial before the trial,
Speaker 2: you know, and again had no knowledge of what that was.
Speaker 2: And so we went to so they came up here
Speaker 2: and they had to do that first. So essentially both
Speaker 2: the girls had to listen to all of their evidence
Speaker 2: and be cross examined, and myself to action and I sucked.
Speaker 2: I was really bad in the pre trial before they
Speaker 2: decided to keep the cases.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that they've had an application to separate the
Speaker 1: separate the trial. So he was charged and probably should
Speaker 1: I should have clarified that earlier. He was charged. I
Speaker 1: believe four counts with Rose.
Speaker 2: I can't remember.
Speaker 1: There were a lot, okay, charges related to Rose and
Speaker 1: charges related to Pepper. Yeah, and they tried to separate
Speaker 1: separate the trial, so that okay, so we've got the trial,
Speaker 1: you've had the voidier where you've got to give evidence
Speaker 1: and you go for all the trauma associated with a
Speaker 1: normal trial anyway, But it's at sake for legal argument
Speaker 1: to determine. Okay, they're going to be heard together, then
Speaker 1: you've got to go through through it again. I correct
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, but I think one of your
Speaker 1: children was giving evidence and had to give evidence again
Speaker 1: because the jury member fell asleep.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: And you can't make this stuff up, but no, this
Speaker 1: is this happens. Things happened, but.
Speaker 2: It was and it was interesting. My youngest sister, she's
Speaker 2: fierce and she was she was with the girl, she
Speaker 2: was supporting the girls just outside the room because we
Speaker 2: weren't able to be there, and she when she came
Speaker 2: down after we didn't know what had happened. We just
Speaker 2: knew that they were going to have to impanel a
Speaker 2: new jury. And she came down in the lift you know,
Speaker 2: the back of the Downing Center there and rose like
Speaker 2: runs out of the lift and you know, jumps and
Speaker 2: Brent catches her like I haven't just been sitting and
Speaker 2: listening to like, you know, she just had this beautiful
Speaker 2: way about her. But what we didn't realize is that
Speaker 2: another lift had come down at the same time opened
Speaker 2: up and these people sort of walked down and stopped,
Speaker 2: and they sort of all ran into one another. You know.
Speaker 2: It was one of those moments. And I looked over
Speaker 2: and Anna looked at them, and she gave them this
Speaker 2: look like my sister. She gave them this look. I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh my goodness, what's going on here? And she said
Speaker 2: get her out of here, get her out of here.
Speaker 2: And I was like, what are you talking about. She
Speaker 2: goes one of those motherfuckers just fell asleep, and we
Speaker 2: got to start over. We didn't know, we didn't know.
Speaker 2: A couple of those jury members were actually quite tear
Speaker 2: particularly when they saw that interaction, I think between Brendan
Speaker 2: Rose realizing she was just a little girl. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: because they'd already heard everything so they knew what the
Speaker 2: case was about, so they would have Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the trauma. You said, said to me the other
Speaker 1: day when we're talking that, how angry you were at
Speaker 1: the judge And do you want to talk about talk
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So we as I said, So we did that,
Speaker 2: and I think that was a few days. I think
Speaker 2: it was four or five days. And there was also
Speaker 2: they tried to get a ruling that I couldn't say
Speaker 2: how I found out about what had happened to the girls,
Speaker 2: like how it was presented to me. They didn't want
Speaker 2: me to be able to say the words, and the
Speaker 2: words are very impactful.
Speaker 1: They were trying to stop you, like the first report
Speaker 1: of this is when your five year old daughter jumps
Speaker 1: in the bed and tells you what she told you,
Speaker 1: that that like Leon licking my vagina. They argued to
Speaker 1: exclude that. Yep, I look at the way of evidence
Speaker 1: that comes across. It comes across with that, and I
Speaker 1: just get frustrated with the court system.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's almost like, you know, it hurts our ears
Speaker 2: to hear that, like it did. Anyway, Fortunately, they did
Speaker 2: say that we could use that. You know that I
Speaker 2: could because it provide a context.
Speaker 1: Right, and the point that we were talking about was
Speaker 1: your anger and frustration that the judge and the defense
Speaker 1: on how your children were true.
Speaker 2: So we had as I said that multiple days, so
Speaker 2: Rose had to listen to her evidence three times and
Speaker 2: then answer questions. They have a witness support person, so
Speaker 2: they met that witness support person during the process. We
Speaker 2: had there was the lady from SAS from Sexual Assault
Speaker 2: Service in Aubrey came up with us. But because the
Speaker 2: trial went for so long the funding ran out for
Speaker 2: her to be there, so she was actually only there,
Speaker 2: she wasn't really there while they actually gave evidence. And
Speaker 2: we also had Maggie who was giving evidence as well
Speaker 2: because she had been a witness to a number of things. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so Rose had done this every time the Crown prosecutor,
Speaker 2: so we want to say him, every time he objected
Speaker 2: to something, it was like it was overruled. He did
Speaker 2: not get for the whole trial, not one wrote. You know,
Speaker 2: Rose was being told she was a liar. She goes
Speaker 2: they called me a liar, you know, like to all
Speaker 2: these things. The language that was you just seven and a.
Speaker 1: Half, seven and a half in a witness box at
Speaker 1: court being called a liar.
Speaker 2: Yep, you're a liar.
Speaker 1: So you objective to that overall and it.
Speaker 2: Just the whole thing, it just went like that. It
Speaker 2: was just it was so horrible and it was so
Speaker 2: outside anything that I believed could happen. I felt stupid.
Speaker 2: I did. I was like, I can't believe they can
Speaker 2: do this. I'd it just and every time I looked
Speaker 2: at that man, the defense barrister, they had zero respect
Speaker 2: for him. I just I could not respect him. He
Speaker 2: was short too anyway, So we so Rose did that
Speaker 2: and then Pitt was on for days and she she
Speaker 2: couldn't speak.
Speaker 1: By the end, let traumatized.
Speaker 2: She could not speak. She ended up actually with really
Speaker 2: bad tonsilitis. We had to get a doctor to come
Speaker 2: to the hotel. She got really really bad tonsilitis. And
Speaker 2: you know, there were things that happened, like so Janine,
Speaker 2: who was our witness support person, she they asked Rose
Speaker 2: seven and a half year old. Rose, who has since
Speaker 2: been diagnosed with dyslexia, asked her to read from a
Speaker 2: page on her statement and she couldn't find it, and
Speaker 2: Janine turned the page to get it for her, and
Speaker 2: she was dismissed because she was helping the witness. So
Speaker 2: the one person that they had a connection with was
Speaker 2: dismissed because she was helping the witness. Natalie, the solicitor
Speaker 2: who was talking about she came out of the courtroom
Speaker 2: one day, Brent sitting there. Pips been on the stand
Speaker 2: for a couple of days at this point, and she
Speaker 2: came out really quickly and she said, I've got to
Speaker 2: go around the back and talk to pitm And Brent
Speaker 2: was like, is she okay? And she said no, she's
Speaker 2: not okay, and Brent said, well, like, what do we
Speaker 2: do and she said, I don't know. She goes, I'm
Speaker 2: just going to talk to her. She just, you know,
Speaker 2: she just needs to answer the questions. If the answers yes,
Speaker 2: she says yes. If it's no, she says no. If
Speaker 2: it's I don't know, she says, I don't know. That's
Speaker 2: all she has to do. She's really upset, and then
Speaker 2: she rushed off. Well, the defendant's family heard that interaction.
Speaker 2: Natalie got rooted and had to do training because of it,
Speaker 2: like it impacted on her career.
Speaker 1: Technically in the lead to tell someone what the novel,
Speaker 1: what the person in the witness box is saying, but
Speaker 1: we're talking about a young girl, traumatized young girl, and
Speaker 1: that it's.
Speaker 2: Just and she wasn't saying what she was saying. She
Speaker 2: was just saying. She wasn't saying anything. And the jide
Speaker 2: actually ruled well no, because she used the word if.
Speaker 2: She didn't give that she didn't give the answers to
Speaker 2: the question she said if, and also she didn't say
Speaker 2: what any of it but what happened. And I didn't realize
Speaker 2: this at the time. I was at the motel, Pips
Speaker 2: out the back of the courthouse waiting to go in.
Speaker 2: No one knew this was going on, because the next morning,
Speaker 2: you know, there was this and Nat was sort of
Speaker 2: sitting there and Brent went to talk to her and
Speaker 2: she was like no, like, I can't talk to you.
Speaker 2: And then they all got caught as witnesses in this
Speaker 2: side show that was happening while Pip's sitting in the
Speaker 2: back waiting anyway, and then Brent wasn't like Brent wasn't
Speaker 2: allowed to talk to Pip, like it was just all this.
Speaker 2: It was just absolute rubbish. And I ended up on
Speaker 2: the Friday, so she'd gone all week, and on the
Speaker 2: Friday they said, look, they're trying to they're trying to
Speaker 2: get the charges dropped. They're saying that Pip's not answering
Speaker 2: enough questions. And I said, all right, no worries. I said, well, Glenn,
Speaker 2: I want you to go in there right now, and
Speaker 2: I want them charged with the emotional abuse of my daughter.
Speaker 2: And he sort of looked at me and he's like
Speaker 2: he's like, you're not I would if I could. And
Speaker 2: that's what they're doing. That's what they're doing in there.
Speaker 2: They're abusing my children. Anyway, Obviously that didn't happen, So
Speaker 2: that happened. I actually then went back to our hotel,
Speaker 2: my cousin. We had twenty two people in and out
Speaker 2: of that courtroom the whole time we were there. Were
Speaker 2: so well supported, and when I say in and out,
Speaker 2: no one was in there with the kids. They all
Speaker 2: sat outside with us. But I went home and did
Speaker 2: a chronology of what had happened since we'd arrived in Sydney,
Speaker 2: so we were up to the end of week three,
Speaker 2: I think at that point, and i'd have said that
Speaker 2: if the charges were dropped, I was happy to go
Speaker 2: trial by media. I'm fine with that. And i'd actually
Speaker 2: been in contact with somebody from the media during the
Speaker 2: week and anyway, so that sort of I don't know
Speaker 2: if that prompted anything, but I think everything got a
Speaker 2: bit faster after that.
Speaker 1: I don't like to be accountable, and look, I don't
Speaker 1: want you to feed into my anger about some things
Speaker 1: I see at court. But what you've just described there,
Speaker 1: I just from a parent's point of view, I can't
Speaker 1: even comprehend the anger and the frustration you must feel
Speaker 1: when we haven't done anything wrong. My daughters certainly haven't
Speaker 1: done anything wrong. Why we've been treated like that? And
Speaker 1: it's all very well, And I know this sounds very opinionated,
Speaker 1: but it's all very well. When these defense barriss are saying, well,
Speaker 1: everyone's got a right to a defense and all that,
Speaker 1: but there's a way in which you can defend people.
Speaker 1: I agree, everyone does have a right to defense, but
Speaker 1: there's a way in which you can defend people so
Speaker 1: their legal rights are met.
Speaker 2: I think it took its toll on him, the defense barrister.
Speaker 2: I watched his demeanor change over that period of time,
Speaker 2: but he still went there with the intention to break
Speaker 2: the children. That was the quickest way to get the
Speaker 2: case to be done.
Speaker 1: If we're talking kids, we're not talking adults in there
Speaker 1: or beating up on the police officer or someone in
Speaker 1: the witness box. We're talking about kids that have come
Speaker 1: forward to the court because they've been sexually assaulted. It
Speaker 1: needs protection. Okay, I'm angry. You were angry and upset, understandably,
Speaker 1: but you actually did something like the advocacy from it,
Speaker 1: and we're going to move into that because I think
Speaker 1: it's very significant the things that flowed on from your
Speaker 1: anger and I'm sure other people's angers and frustrations of
Speaker 1: the system that's just not set up to support children.
Speaker 2: No, that's it.
Speaker 1: No circumstances. So he was convicted only of what he
Speaker 1: did or can I ask you, and you're again only speculating,
Speaker 1: I suppose on why he wasn't convicted of what happened
Speaker 1: with Rose.
Speaker 2: So I know that there was a question that came
Speaker 2: back from the jury during that when they were deliberating,
Speaker 2: and the question was if it mattered if she got
Speaker 2: the time wrong, like, you know, if the time frame
Speaker 2: wasn't right, but she'd said what had happened, you know,
Speaker 2: did that matter if they were sure that it had happened,
Speaker 2: And the judge said that that was reasonable doubt. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So yeah, that that that's hard, Like it's hard, and
Speaker 2: I think that's Roses found that hard as she's got
Speaker 2: older to She didn't know until we did the justice
Speaker 2: shouldn't hurt, which we'll talk about. She didn't know that
Speaker 2: he wasn't convicted for charges on her. So when we
Speaker 2: did the victim impact statement, we did one for pimp
Speaker 2: and we did one for her too, even though we
Speaker 2: didn't get it. Yeah, I just wanted her to know
Speaker 2: that it mattered.
Speaker 1: When the guilty verdict came down. How did you feel personally?
Speaker 1: How did the family feel?
Speaker 2: That was a weird day. This is my question that
Speaker 2: I last you a couple of years ago because we
Speaker 2: went to your show at the Endmore Theater, and my
Speaker 2: question for you was, how do you balance the elation
Speaker 2: of a guilty verdict with the feelings of the family
Speaker 2: when nothing's changed. So we were at home and the
Speaker 2: girls were at school. You know, the girls had gone
Speaker 2: back to school. My uncle and my cousin stayed up. Well,
Speaker 2: they lived in Sydney, so they went We came home.
Speaker 2: Brent went up the first day and then nothing happened.
Speaker 2: So he came back home and they were at the
Speaker 2: courthouse and I got the phone call from my uncle
Speaker 2: to say he's been found guilty of seven out of
Speaker 2: eight charges. And I was like okay, And then I
Speaker 2: was singing where's Brent? Like he was picking the girls
Speaker 2: up from school and I didn't know, you know, where
Speaker 2: he was or where he would be. I was worried
Speaker 2: that it would be not guilty and he'd be picking
Speaker 2: the girls up from school because I did worry how
Speaker 2: he would cope with that anyway, So that happened, and
Speaker 2: then my cousin then rang me. He stayed in for
Speaker 2: the whole thing, and he got bail. He was found
Speaker 2: guilty of child sex offenses and he got bail, so
Speaker 2: he was allowed to walk out of the courthouse that day. Anyway,
Speaker 2: a lot of our friends came over, the people who'd
Speaker 2: been supporting us during the trial that you know, the
Speaker 2: years proceeding. Glenn the detective came over and a couple
Speaker 2: of people bought bottles of champagne. And I was sitting
Speaker 2: at the table and everyone was kind of jovial, and
Speaker 2: I do not begrudge to anyone of that at all. Actually,
Speaker 2: I couldn't sit there.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: It just confirmed when I knew already.
Speaker 1: And yeah, when's what's the celebrate?
Speaker 2: No, that's all right. And you know who came out, Glenn, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: because he knew.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, yeah. I liked the fact that. And
Speaker 1: one good thing that came from it, you had a
Speaker 1: good officer that could understand that there's not a celebration
Speaker 1: and yeah, I people, and we're being critical of the
Speaker 1: justice system or legal systems. You quite rightly say it's
Speaker 1: not perfect. There's failings and we understand you need checks
Speaker 1: and balances, but we're talking about protecting kids and kids
Speaker 1: should be protected and the rights of the accused. I
Speaker 1: fully understand that. I get it all, but again, look
Speaker 1: at the offense and with the sentencing, Like he came
Speaker 1: out and by what did he get sentenced?
Speaker 2: So it was three years, nine months and two and
Speaker 2: a half years with parole, so he was out two
Speaker 2: and a half years.
Speaker 1: Here I concede that. You know, it's not much of
Speaker 1: a concession. That's obvious. Judges have you know, they take
Speaker 1: a lot of things in the consideration. They're smart, smart people.
Speaker 1: I just think the courts need to reflect. The courts
Speaker 1: are there to serve the community, people who have heard
Speaker 1: the story of how one man's actions for his own
Speaker 1: let's break it down, his own sex gratification and the
Speaker 1: impact on how many lives he's are harmed and how
Speaker 1: many lives he is You know, what he's done is
Speaker 1: people are going to carry that for the rest of
Speaker 1: their lives. How much money has been spent on him
Speaker 1: and three and a half or what was it, three
Speaker 1: years and two and a half. Yeah, I never from
Speaker 1: a cops point of view, I never bought into the
Speaker 1: actual sentencing. But I would imagine with you, with everything
Speaker 1: you've been through, you've just described the story you described,
Speaker 1: was just getting to the end of the court matter,
Speaker 1: and there's your two and a half years, there's your
Speaker 1: three years sentence. Your family's been sentenced.
Speaker 2: So it was look and it was a bit heartening.
Speaker 2: And he he did appeal his conviction, and he appealed
Speaker 2: it on the basis that Pipped inn't answer all the questions.
Speaker 2: There were three appeal judges, and I've seen the documents
Speaker 2: around that, and there it was a little bit of
Speaker 2: hope for me, you know, as everyday citizen that they
Speaker 2: were quite professionally damning of some of the decisions that
Speaker 2: were made during the trial, including the fact that some
Speaker 2: of Rose's charges had been dropped. Yeah, both before the
Speaker 2: trial and during the trial.
Speaker 1: The courts are a complex matter. I suppose the one
Speaker 1: thing I take away from your experience is I didn't
Speaker 1: really appreciate how traumatic it is on the kids. When
Speaker 1: you break it down, you're living with them, you're raising them,
Speaker 1: and what they're going through at that age, and I
Speaker 1: can't even comprehend what would be going through their mind.
Speaker 2: In this well, even for Mags like she was a
Speaker 2: star witness. You know, in the end she was able
Speaker 2: to just get in there and say and basically put
Speaker 2: him in the places where you know, the other two
Speaker 2: had said. So. Yeah, but it was four weeks. She
Speaker 2: waited four weeks for that.
Speaker 1: You said you felt you didn't go well in the
Speaker 1: witness box. I feel pressure going in the witness box.
Speaker 1: I can't even comprehend what.
Speaker 2: Let me say, I didn't the first time around. So
Speaker 2: in that pre trial, and unfortunately they gave me too
Speaker 2: much time to read my statements for the main trial
Speaker 2: because I could write it off by heart. So when
Speaker 2: they were saying, well, you said this, I was like, no,
Speaker 2: on page four, I actually said that, So it was
Speaker 2: probably you know it was I didn't realize that you
Speaker 2: had to memorize it.
Speaker 1: Well, that was an old, old skill that those tourn
Speaker 1: detectives we learned verbatim and you had to You couldn't
Speaker 1: refer to your statement, so you learned the whole whole
Speaker 1: of your evidence. But it shouldn't really come down to
Speaker 1: a memory test like that. And yeah, I gain. I
Speaker 1: don't like beating up on the legal system because you
Speaker 1: need it and you need the checks and balances and
Speaker 1: I understand that, but I just hate seeing kids traumatize.
Speaker 1: Let's move on something. If anything positive comes from this,
Speaker 1: and sadly it's come after your children, but setting up
Speaker 1: something that's going to change, And I just want to
Speaker 1: read this as an article that's been written about the
Speaker 1: type of work that you've done. So the Millthorpes advocacy
Speaker 1: efforts were integral in expanding the Child's Sexual Offense's Evidence
Speaker 1: Program to every district court and police district in regional
Speaker 1: New South Wales in twenty twenty three. The program allows
Speaker 1: young people to pre record their evidence, including examination, cross
Speaker 1: examination and re examination in front of a judge and
Speaker 1: lawyers without the jury present. This is done in the
Speaker 1: timely manner, allowing victims to move more quickly into the
Speaker 1: healing part of their journey. You've contributed to that. It's
Speaker 1: pretty powerful. Do you want to break it down what
Speaker 1: that actually means and what the improvements are so people
Speaker 1: don't have to get through what you and your daughters
Speaker 1: went through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it and look it was so Glenn had
Speaker 2: actually mentioned during the trial that they were doing a
Speaker 2: pilot program, so kids were given what was called a
Speaker 2: witness intermediary, so somebody who would be there when they
Speaker 2: were giving their evidence to police, So breaking down some
Speaker 2: of those communication barriers, so I said earlier, you know,
Speaker 2: for Rose, she didn't even understand some of the things
Speaker 2: were happening, the language and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: So it was the idea is that you're getting best
Speaker 2: evidence from the kids because they've got this person there
Speaker 2: who can help explain questions and those sorts of things.
Speaker 2: And then so they quarter pointed, then what happens, so
Speaker 2: that's all recorded within six months of that statement happening.
Speaker 2: There's a quarter appointed solicitor who will cross examine the
Speaker 2: children with the witness intermediary part of that process again,
Speaker 2: and then they record and that is what is presented
Speaker 2: to court. So instead of kids going and spending three
Speaker 2: four five days on the stand, they're doing this instead.
Speaker 2: And you know, for us, it was this no brainer
Speaker 2: that you've got somebody there who can help the kids
Speaker 2: participate equitably in the process. Because they've got their language
Speaker 2: needs being met, they can move into that, As I said,
Speaker 2: the survivor state more quickly, because you know, they're hanging
Speaker 2: in his victimhoods. You know, for a number of years
Speaker 2: as it turned.
Speaker 1: Out, feeling the pressure of happened to provide the evidence
Speaker 1: at court.
Speaker 2: That's it and then they can kind of move on.
Speaker 2: And the thing is that it's been independently reviewed a
Speaker 2: couple of times now and the review process has said
Speaker 2: that both sides of the law, so you know, prosecutors
Speaker 2: and defenders have said that it is not breaching the
Speaker 2: rights of the you know, the perpetrated to a fair trial.
Speaker 2: And so you know, it was his no brainer that
Speaker 2: was happening in Sydney Newcastle. So it came out to
Speaker 2: Australia in twenty fifteen. It was reviewed in twenty eighteen,
Speaker 2: and in twenty eighteen they said it would be expanded
Speaker 2: across the state and it wasn't. And I was watching
Speaker 2: and it wasn't expanded. And so I had been writing
Speaker 2: letters to the Attorney General a number of times. Every
Speaker 2: school holidays was my letter writing time. And you know,
Speaker 2: we got up to twenty twenty two and I was
Speaker 2: still getting the exact same letter back from them. And
Speaker 2: we're very sorry that this has happened. We have this,
Speaker 2: this and this in process, and I'm telling you that
Speaker 2: doesn't work, and you know, with no intention of it
Speaker 2: to be expanded. So the girls wanted to do a fundraiser.
Speaker 2: So Rose wanted to do it. She wanted to write
Speaker 2: around Australia. I don't know how much it was outruistic
Speaker 2: or whether she just wanted to get out of school,
Speaker 2: like still had the juries out, but she yeah, she
Speaker 2: wanted to raise money for Brave Hearts, the child sexual
Speaker 2: assault advocacy group, and so she wanted to do that
Speaker 2: and I said, well, if you're going to do that
Speaker 2: and you wanted to raise some awareness about something, what
Speaker 2: would you do. And the two of them were sitting
Speaker 2: together at the time, and they both said court is shit,
Speaker 2: both of them. And so we talked about this program
Speaker 2: and said this is something that could be available. Do
Speaker 2: you think that would help? And the girl said yes,
Speaker 2: And I said, well, why don't we raise awareness for that?
Speaker 2: But then at that moment where oh, Roses only she
Speaker 2: was thirteen turning fourteen at the time, and I thought
Speaker 2: she can't you know, I looked into the legal side
Speaker 2: of it, and I'm thinking, she can't tell her a story.
Speaker 2: So when I told her that, she was pretty pissed off.
Speaker 2: And then I wrote some emails and I was emailing
Speaker 2: different organizations trying to find out more about the legal
Speaker 2: side of it. I emailed Nina for now yeah previous,
Speaker 2: very impressive voice, she's amazing, and I knew she'd been
Speaker 2: involved in the let Us Speak campaign, so I just
Speaker 2: emailed her. I did not expect to get anything back
Speaker 2: from her, but in my email I said, this is us,
Speaker 2: this is what's happened. There is a solution. This is
Speaker 2: a solution, and they're not doing it anyway. Probably an
Speaker 2: hour later I got an email back, can I give
Speaker 2: you a call? And then this thing started. So we
Speaker 2: went through it and we talked to her. I said,
Speaker 2: and I had seen our local member at the time,
Speaker 2: justin Clancy in Aubrey, and he was really supportive of
Speaker 2: trying to get a petition through Parliament so that they
Speaker 2: would have to debate it. You need twenty thousand signatures
Speaker 2: and it just wasn't happening quick enough for me or
Speaker 2: for any of us. And the petition was that the
Speaker 2: Child Sexual Assault Evidence Scheme is extended to include all
Speaker 2: children in regional New South Wales because it wasn't right anyway.
Speaker 2: So Nina got on board and we started talking. Something
Speaker 2: that she said to me, that's always stuck with me,
Speaker 2: and she said, the process of telling the story needs
Speaker 2: to be better than the story. And the way that
Speaker 2: she cared for our children and our family is exceptional.
Speaker 2: She's just an amazing survivor advocate and I just think
Speaker 2: she's exceptional. And she yeah. So the story came out.
Speaker 2: The Justice Shouldn't Hurt campaign was born, I think the
Speaker 2: first day after the Girl's launchestory. And it wasn't that easy,
Speaker 2: like we had to go through court, and you know,
Speaker 2: fortunately News Court helped us with that so that Rose
Speaker 2: could tell her story, and she did write a really
Speaker 2: powerful letter to the court and she did say I
Speaker 2: had a man telling me for a long time that
Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed to talk and I wasn't allowed to
Speaker 2: tell my story. Then I went to court and I
Speaker 2: had men standing in front of me telling me that
Speaker 2: I had that I had to tell my story. And
Speaker 2: now you're telling me that I'm allowed to tell my
Speaker 2: story again, you know.
Speaker 1: And so sometimes it needs a clarity of a young
Speaker 1: mind to break down what this is about. How do
Speaker 1: you argue against the logic of a child that's it
Speaker 1: those statements?
Speaker 2: And so they did. They told the story and that
Speaker 2: first day there were I think they got we got
Speaker 2: twenty five thousand signatures. I think on the first day.
Speaker 2: It was sixty nine thousand by the end of the year.
Speaker 2: So it launched in the November and then on the
Speaker 2: first of February we came up to Sydney and Dominique Perrete.
Speaker 2: At the time he announced bipartisan agreement that it would
Speaker 2: be expanded across in New South Wales. So sixty four
Speaker 2: point three million dollars was promised to have Witness into
Speaker 2: me year. He's available in every court in South Wales.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, And just the way that you explained that,
Speaker 1: it just seems like a no brainer too, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: How that was what people said, So anyone that was commenting,
Speaker 2: and you know, we were a little bit worried about,
Speaker 2: you know, some of the things that would come out,
Speaker 2: and again, you know, the majority of people are amazing
Speaker 2: and speak really you know, it's a no brainer. I reckon.
Speaker 2: That was said so many times, it's a no brainer.
Speaker 2: Why are they not doing this? But and when we did,
Speaker 2: you know, have a meeting with the premiere at the time,
Speaker 2: he you know, he had lots of kids and you
Speaker 2: could see he was as a dad was actually disappointed
Speaker 2: that he didn't know about it, And Brent, you know,
Speaker 2: he's like, you don't know what you don't know, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter where you are or what you do,
Speaker 2: Like even as a police officer, it'd be people in
Speaker 2: the police that don't know.
Speaker 1: As I said, I was involved in these type of investigations.
Speaker 1: But yeah, hearing it firsthand from someone like yourself and
Speaker 1: relaying what your children went through and understanding that you
Speaker 1: look at it and go what sort of society are
Speaker 1: we that we retraumatize children in this way? So and like, well, firstly,
Speaker 1: congratulate you, congratulate your girls and Nina and everyone else
Speaker 1: involved in the campaign. What an important, important change that's
Speaker 1: been made to help people so they don't have to
Speaker 1: go through what you and your daughters went.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know Nina is sort of now doing
Speaker 2: more advocacy in that space too, with the next sort
Speaker 2: of wave of justice shouldn't hurt, as you've heard, and
Speaker 2: I think Nina powersource.
Speaker 1: I walked away after she was seeing in that chair
Speaker 1: that you're sitting in after having her on the podcast,
Speaker 1: and I was just amazed at how strong and passionate
Speaker 1: she was and how articulate she could explain explain things. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: you teamed up with a good person there. The type
Speaker 1: of impact it has on your girls when they're victims
Speaker 1: of child sexual abuse like that, even the way that
Speaker 1: they looked at or reacted around their grandfathers or other
Speaker 1: men within your family and the whole it steals away
Speaker 1: some of their child or doesn't it. It does been
Speaker 1: victims of that type of abuse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. But I think I contacted a group,
Speaker 2: Vocal Victims of Crime Advocacy League. They're based out of Newcastle.
Speaker 2: I got in contact with the lady from there. I
Speaker 2: can't remember her name, and I wish I could, because
Speaker 2: she was very She said to me, you know, you
Speaker 2: go from victim to survivor, and then you survive and
Speaker 2: then you thrive, and then you thrive and then you
Speaker 2: inspire and way put and you know, I've seen them
Speaker 2: move through that and again, like they are kids, and
Speaker 2: they do have messy rooms and sometimes they're you know,
Speaker 2: really really upset me.
Speaker 1: Do you want me to give a share that?
Speaker 2: But you know the majority of the time they are
Speaker 2: living really good life. Some people think that because we've
Speaker 2: done this advocacy work, that we are living in this space.
Speaker 2: This is not a place that we ever thought we
Speaker 2: would be. Annoys me when people say it. The thing
Speaker 2: is that that you can't know something and then in
Speaker 2: good conscience not do something about it if you've got
Speaker 2: the capacity, and we could, so we did. My kids
Speaker 2: have mostly good days. I watched Rose, you know, the
Speaker 2: nearly you know, sixteen and a half year old writing
Speaker 2: different waves of her journey because her understanding has changed
Speaker 2: over time about what happened, and you know what that means,
Speaker 2: and you know that that's been an interesting journey to watch.
Speaker 2: But most days are good. That's the reality. Most days
Speaker 2: are good. We've had people step up in our life,
Speaker 2: and we've had people step out, and that's okay because
Speaker 2: I think when you are passionate about something and you
Speaker 2: know it's right, then you've just got to do it.
Speaker 1: You made a comment earlier on that sometimes you've got
Speaker 1: to screen that allow us to get things done. And
Speaker 1: I think what you articulated there is that you've experienced it.
Speaker 1: You had the so that you had the energy, you
Speaker 1: had the passion, had the ability to make a difference.
Speaker 1: And I think the world is a better place when
Speaker 1: people like you you step up. But the thing that
Speaker 1: I've seen a scene about you and our communications is
Speaker 1: that you're not going through life as a victim. You're
Speaker 1: making making the difference and you can still laugh and
Speaker 1: you come in here, you can laugh, you can cry,
Speaker 1: but yeah, you're still experiencing life. But I think the
Speaker 1: kids have been fortunate to have someone like yourself and
Speaker 1: Brent aren't. They're they're supporting them, and it looks like
Speaker 1: you've got through this or getting through it, I should
Speaker 1: say as a family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh look, I don't get it right all the time.
Speaker 2: I can tell you that I don't, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's what Brent was, So.
Speaker 2: I I why would you give someone like that more power?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I like your avitude.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've deliberately chosen not to hate because that's a
Speaker 2: really strong emotion that takes a lot of energy. I
Speaker 2: don't think I can forgive, but I can be indifferent.
Speaker 1: The difference are very powerful, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what I need to do my kids. Rose.
Speaker 2: Rose is very forgiving because she's a if you don't forgive,
Speaker 2: you don't grow type person. And I love that about her.
Speaker 2: But she won't forget. Yeah, everyone's on a different journey,
Speaker 2: but we all have made a really deliberate choice to
Speaker 2: live a good life.
Speaker 1: That's that's I don't want to use the word revenge,
Speaker 1: but that's the way that you you're insignificant, put put
Speaker 1: in the past. Now you've got some other things that
Speaker 1: you're working on too. Yeah, Gluton, Gluton for punishment. Are
Speaker 1: you you looking at running running for parliament?
Speaker 2: I am. Yeah. Someone said to me today at the airport,
Speaker 2: a parent of an ex student. He said, oh, what
Speaker 2: are you up? Chair said, I've decided to run for parliament.
Speaker 2: He goes, oh, are you doing local government? Oh no,
Speaker 2: I went straight straight to the top anyway. He's like,
Speaker 2: what are you doing? So we live in Pharah. I
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, we do anyway. So look, I I
Speaker 2: there was a tweet that somebody put out last year
Speaker 2: that was really not nice and didn't reflect me as
Speaker 2: a person or anybody that I knew, and was really unrelatable.
Speaker 2: And I'll just look at federal politics at the moment
Speaker 2: and go, there's no there's no teachers in there, there's
Speaker 2: no police in there. Well there are, but they were
Speaker 2: a really long long time ago. There's no regular people who.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Wanted to just make sure that people are thriving and
Speaker 2: regional communities get overlooked. They do, and regional equity is
Speaker 2: a real issue. And this, you know, the Justice Shouldn't
Speaker 2: Hurt campaign, and seeing what we had to do to
Speaker 2: get justice, you know, it was glaringly obvious that there's
Speaker 2: things that are missed out on because of our regional location.
Speaker 2: And we live in inner city, so you know, for
Speaker 2: people further out west and you know, in more remote areas,
Speaker 2: they're missing out on things. And I don't think that's fair.
Speaker 1: That's fair. Now going in the politics, Well, you've shown
Speaker 1: that you've got the got the energy, and you've got
Speaker 1: the capacity and the sense of justice. So I don't
Speaker 1: think that's a bad starting point in the politics. And
Speaker 1: I take on board what you're saying that people that
Speaker 1: people in touch with what goes on in communities from
Speaker 1: a regional point of view, but also teaching, and there's
Speaker 1: a lot and we're going off off track a little
Speaker 1: bit here, but so much in the media at the
Speaker 1: moment about youth crime and different things and the way
Speaker 1: to deal with youth crime. I've always thought, on law
Speaker 1: and all the issues, put money into education, because I
Speaker 1: think education can do so much good pointing people in
Speaker 1: the right direction. And if you do get in politics,
Speaker 1: this is just a theory. So you can take this
Speaker 1: one into we want to get tough on crime, Let's
Speaker 1: look at how much crime emanates from child sexual abuse.
Speaker 1: Let's look at how many people are in prison because
Speaker 1: there abuse and as children and have ended up in prison.
Speaker 1: So how do we really fight fight crime? Well, let's
Speaker 1: fight something that causes a lot of crime. It's it's
Speaker 1: not a theory, it's the statistics are out there. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous, and we've got to look at things like that.
Speaker 1: But anyway, where what's the seat you run for?
Speaker 2: So Fara? So it's one hundred and twenty six thousand
Speaker 2: square kilometers yep, yeah, just east of Auburry, Gingerlic sort
Speaker 2: of and then all the way to South Astralian border
Speaker 2: up through Griffith and places like that. Danili Quinn Yeah,
Speaker 2: so yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Know the areas I've been down, yeah in my policing
Speaker 1: days and different things down that way. So oh look,
Speaker 1: good good luck to here you and I want to
Speaker 1: say too, thank you, not just thanks for coming on
Speaker 1: the podcast that's given, but the fact that you have
Speaker 1: made a difference in the justice system, and it takes
Speaker 1: people taking a stand, and what your daughters have stood
Speaker 1: up to. And I said to you, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if I said it on the podcast, but I'll say it.
Speaker 1: I know I said it to you off Mike. The
Speaker 1: way that your girls are presenting themselves like full credit
Speaker 1: to full credit to should.
Speaker 2: Be proud of them. I am. I am. Yeah, good stuff,
Speaker 2: all right, thanks very much, Thank you.