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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Michelle,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back Part two. It's good to see you smile.

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Speaker 1: Like the subject we're talking about such a heavy, heavy subject.

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Speaker 1: And I think sometimes people are surprised with the name

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Speaker 1: of the guests that we come on here, that we

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Speaker 1: can still sit here and have a laugh. But you've

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Speaker 1: got to be able to laugh through situations like this

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Speaker 1: just to survive. Yeah, is that a fair.

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Speaker 2: Fairment of it? It is? And look, I think I

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Speaker 2: know I just have this determination that we know that

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Speaker 2: the nature of abuse is about power and the best

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Speaker 2: way to take someone's power back is to just be

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Speaker 2: indifferent to them and to live a good life. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: in spite of everything. And I just think that that's yeah.

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Speaker 1: Try Well, in part one, we got a sense of

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Speaker 1: the impact on you and the shock of this situation

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Speaker 1: evolving where your daughter's come to you and reported that

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Speaker 1: she's been sexually abused and that's impacted on another daughter.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the court system, and in

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Speaker 1: our conversations we had the other day, I got the

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Speaker 1: sense called me very perceptive. I've got the sense there

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Speaker 1: was a certain amount of frustrations with the courts. And

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Speaker 1: I think you said something that that's not a justice sysm.

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Speaker 1: You've worked out courts and not justice system. It's a

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Speaker 1: legal system. I've heard too many victims of crime telling

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Speaker 1: me that exact thing, and I think I share that

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Speaker 1: share that view. But before we before we move in

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Speaker 1: to talk about the process, because it took two and

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Speaker 1: a half years for it to get to court, there

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Speaker 1: was something else in our conversation that we said that Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it impacted on me, just you telling me the story

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Speaker 1: and it was about. We clarified before the start of

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Speaker 1: the interview that your daughter's happy for us to talk

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Speaker 1: about it, but Pip, your daughter was so affected by it.

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Speaker 1: She's saying that she didn't want to live.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And look, that was the first time she

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Speaker 2: mentioned that she was ten and she didn't just say

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Speaker 2: I don't want to bear live anymore. She told me

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Speaker 2: how she wanted things to go. And you know, as

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Speaker 2: a as a teacher too, like that's one of the

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Speaker 2: first things when you have a kid, say something, you know, oh,

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Speaker 2: do you have a plan? And she did. She had

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Speaker 2: a plan and she was ten, and you know, the

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Speaker 2: impact on her mental health was significant, and you know

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Speaker 2: it was ongoing. So one of the things that she

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Speaker 2: found really difficult was that with counselors and things like that,

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Speaker 2: when you're waiting so long to go to court. The

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Speaker 2: Sexual Assault Services really about they're amazing counselors, but she

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Speaker 2: had four different ones in two and a half years.

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Speaker 2: So she was sick of people. She already had issues

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Speaker 2: with people leaving her because we'd had you know, Jen

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Speaker 2: had disappeared from her life, and then she had, you know,

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Speaker 2: these counselors who were meant to be helping her. She'd

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Speaker 2: develop her rapport with them and then they'd go into

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Speaker 2: something else, and you know, that's not their fault, that

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Speaker 2: is not their fault. But we just saw this really

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Speaker 2: steady decline in her mental health and how she was

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Speaker 2: and she was isolated from friends. You know, there was

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Speaker 2: so much going on for her. Yeah, so just before

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Speaker 2: we went to court in Sydney, so you know, two

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Speaker 2: and a half years later, it was probably about it

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Speaker 2: was the March I think was Easter weekend in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 2: and she had been completely irrational at the shops. We

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Speaker 2: were at mum and Dad's place in Kutamundra. We've been

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Speaker 2: in the shops. She wanted to buy something that was

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Speaker 2: just probably what I referred to as happy meal, you know,

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Speaker 2: toys like rubbish, and I said no and she carried on.

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Speaker 2: It was just completely irrational for the situation anyway, I

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Speaker 2: knew were sort of on a backslide. So we we

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Speaker 2: were walking home and we stopped at a corner and

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Speaker 2: she just looked me doad in the iron and she said,

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Speaker 2: I'm so She looked behind and then she looked me

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Speaker 2: down in the iron and said, I'm so sorry. Mum

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Speaker 2: and she went to run out and there was a

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Speaker 2: car coming around the corner and it was just like

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Speaker 2: she was in so much pain. It was just so

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Speaker 2: much pain. And there was part of me was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: why are we doing this, Like we shouldn't be putting

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Speaker 2: her through this, And then there was another part of

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Speaker 2: me that knew that her personality is that she would

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Speaker 2: go into that whole of you know, I didn't go

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Speaker 2: through with this, and that means that nothing happened and

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Speaker 2: nothing changed. And so it was this we were trying

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Speaker 2: to balance, you know, do we put our kids through

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Speaker 2: this court process or do we not never expecting it

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Speaker 2: to be what it was. You know, we had a

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Speaker 2: balcony when we were in Sydney, and she couldn't be

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Speaker 2: on that balcony like we weren't allowed to she couldn't

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Speaker 2: be out of our sight. It was pretty Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: was pretty scary.

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Speaker 1: I can't even comprehend what you're going through as parents,

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Speaker 1: seeing that ten year old going through that type of

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Speaker 1: type of trauma.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and even the services you know, at that time,

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Speaker 2: so as I said, the Sexual Assault Service said this

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Speaker 2: is actually beyond descope like this is and I could

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Speaker 2: completely appreciate that I worked in well being, and I

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Speaker 2: was very prepared for them to say that. We went

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Speaker 2: to CAMS, which is the Child Adolescent Mental Health Mental

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Speaker 2: Health Service, and you know, here's this kid who's she

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Speaker 2: just turned eleven at that point, and she was going

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Speaker 2: to CAMS at the same time as there was a

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Speaker 2: drug and alcohol support group there. So she would turn

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Speaker 2: up in a room full of you know, all of

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Speaker 2: these people who were seeking support for an addiction. It

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Speaker 2: was just, yeah, it was just terrific. It was really

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Speaker 2: bad look and she sort of she struggled with that

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Speaker 2: for probably the next five years. So she was about fifteen,

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Speaker 2: and you know, things went pretty poorly. Pips really good

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Speaker 2: at describing things, and you know, I've said, you know,

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Speaker 2: she's a great little writer, and she said this one day,

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Speaker 2: you know, I just feel like I'm down in a

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Speaker 2: hole and i can see everyone up there, but I'm

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Speaker 2: just too tired. I'm too tired. Everything was very weighty.

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Speaker 2: You know, she's at the moment, you know, and for

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Speaker 2: the last few years she's just you know, kicking goals.

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Speaker 2: She's doing really well. She does what she needs to

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Speaker 2: do to be, you know, to live a good life.

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Speaker 2: But it has been tricky, and she's been very open

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Speaker 2: in talking about it, and I think that's really important

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Speaker 2: that she can be like that and she shares that

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Speaker 2: with people. She shared that as part of her story,

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Speaker 2: you know, when she's been, you know, publicly speaking about

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Speaker 2: her story, and I think that, you know, it shows

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Speaker 2: how strong she is and where she's got to.

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Speaker 1: Oh, most yeah, most definitely. I think the thing that

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Speaker 1: comes across to me you're articulating what she's going through,

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Speaker 1: what you're going through as a family, is that it's

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Speaker 1: not just the crime doesn't stop when the offense has stopped.

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Speaker 1: The crime permeates its way through years and years of

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Speaker 1: their life, if not their whole life. The type of

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Speaker 1: impact that this childhood sexual abuse, the process, the process

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Speaker 1: took two and a half years to get to court.

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Speaker 1: Now you've made a point to me before that how

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Speaker 1: long is two and a half years in a young

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Speaker 1: person's life, in the child's life, it would seem like

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Speaker 1: a lifetime.

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Speaker 2: Well, for Rose, it was a third of her life.

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Speaker 1: The third of a life going through going through this

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Speaker 1: and trying to get justice. And she's probably confused what

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Speaker 1: even justice is about. Let's just stopping this, making this

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Speaker 1: bad man get punished, which would confuse a child. How

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Speaker 1: do you even explain that to a child? But two

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Speaker 1: and a half years it just seems like an extraordinary

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Speaker 1: long time to wait for the matter to go the court.

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Speaker 1: So that's from the point that he's charged. Yep, now

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Speaker 1: in the country town, not sure of the circumstances. Was

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Speaker 1: he still living within the community. So they've been sexually assaulted,

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Speaker 1: he's been charged, and then his life, for all intents

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Speaker 1: and purposes, is going on unimpeded, and their kids trying

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Speaker 1: to make sense of, well, we told you what this

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Speaker 1: horrible man did to us, Why is he still walking

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Speaker 1: the streets?

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Speaker 2: And we had to put protections in place around them

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Speaker 2: in terms of if we go to the supermarket and

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Speaker 2: you see leon, these are the things that you need

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Speaker 2: to do and say, you know, prepare them for all

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Speaker 2: of that. You know that we just didn't. You didn't

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Speaker 2: think that that would ever happen, and fortunately we didn't.

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Speaker 2: We didn't ever see it, We didn't ever run into it.

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Speaker 2: And as much as I think it's you know, it

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Speaker 2: was crap that he was out. It was a crap.

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Speaker 2: How do you live a good life when you're facing

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Speaker 2: those charges? You know, there's part of me that goes, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're still sort of he wasn't living a

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Speaker 2: great life. But I did hate that we had to

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Speaker 2: put these things around the girls. And you know, have

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Speaker 2: a bit of a script. I suppose, you know, if

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Speaker 2: we're in bigw and I'm in this section and you've

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Speaker 2: gone to this section and you see him, this is

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Speaker 2: what you have to say, even though there were a

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Speaker 2: vos and things like that in place, you know, to

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Speaker 2: try and it was just, yeah, it was just another layer.

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Speaker 2: It was just another layer that you had to add.

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Speaker 1: It's never ending. And you made the point that instead

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Speaker 1: of going to dancing or netball or playing sport in

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Speaker 1: the afternoon, so your children will going to see counselors. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then and the recall, the kids would come up

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Speaker 1: with more information than it'd be passed on to the police.

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Speaker 1: It was just never ending.

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Speaker 2: And I do like if I had my time again,

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Speaker 2: I probably would have I probably would have been more

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Speaker 2: proactive in letting Glenn as a detective know, look, just

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Speaker 2: letting you know this is what's been said, but no

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Speaker 2: one sort of explains that pros And it's definitely no

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Speaker 2: disrespect to the people who were involved in our case

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Speaker 2: because we had a cracking team. And I say that

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Speaker 2: because of the way that they engage with us. But

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Speaker 2: you just don't know. I probably could have gone back

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Speaker 2: seven eight nine, you know, and multiple times.

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Speaker 1: Who has told you yea, he did this to me

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Speaker 1: or he did that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But you kind of go, oh, well, it's sort

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Speaker 2: of all we just know that he did it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And as a parent, you're balancing, Okay, we want justice,

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Speaker 1: we want a person accountable, but you're also looking at

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Speaker 1: how how many times are you going to traumatize you

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Speaker 1: the court? Then seeking justice shouldn't be retraumatizing. Tell us

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Speaker 1: about the court experience, break it right down, like, but

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Speaker 1: what people don't understand. They think, Okay, just go to court,

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Speaker 1: you turn up, they tell you to get there at

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Speaker 1: ten o'clock and you'll give your evidence and all be over.

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Speaker 1: It's nothing like that. You had to come up to

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Speaker 1: Sydney as a family rent a place.

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Speaker 2: Well was even before that, so you know, we would

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Speaker 2: see his name in the court listening and Brent would

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Speaker 2: go and we had no idea what a mention was like,

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Speaker 2: we just didn't know.

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Speaker 1: I'd say this cynically, I think the mention is a

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Speaker 1: way forlicens to get extra money. Half the time, I

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Speaker 1: wonder how many mentions can be on my.

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Speaker 2: Way over seventy mentions? Yeah, like it was. It was

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Speaker 2: just it was hideous and it you know. So we'd

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Speaker 2: go and and Brent would turn up and do a man.

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Speaker 2: There was one particular day that he went to the mansion.

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Speaker 1: So I just clarify so people do understand what the

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Speaker 1: mention is. That a person has been charged, they're bailed

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Speaker 1: to appear, or they're they're remanded to appear on a

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Speaker 1: certain date. They turn up and the mention is, okay,

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Speaker 1: how's the case coming along? Is a brief going to

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Speaker 1: be served? And it just drags.

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Speaker 2: On and we need some extra time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the defense, Yeah, will turn up and it was

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's a prosecution. We need some extra time, and

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Speaker 1: so then it gets put back in the list again

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Speaker 1: time and time again from people going through the situation.

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Speaker 1: You're going through. Your life is hinging on what happens

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Speaker 1: on this court matter. Like that, everything that you're doing

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Speaker 1: in life is around what's going to happen in this

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Speaker 1: court matter. And the amount of time go anywhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to stay, you have to be available

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Speaker 2: just in case it becomes more than a mention. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So you know we had so Brent was going to

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Speaker 2: them and eventually, you know, what what's this mentioned about?

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Speaker 2: What is that? So you know, it was explained to

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Speaker 2: us exactly what you've just said now, So we stopped

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Speaker 2: going to that and then we so the solicitor who

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Speaker 2: was working the case on behalf of the crown, and

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Speaker 2: I do say our solicitor was Nat and Nat was

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Speaker 2: fabulous and she was on board sort of from the beginning.

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Speaker 2: She could speed read. I thought that was amazing. You know,

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Speaker 2: she was just she was incredible, and she knew the

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Speaker 2: case inside and out. She was probably the most consistent

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Speaker 2: person from that legal side for us. Obviously there was Glenn.

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Speaker 2: You know, I had Glenn called me one day at

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Speaker 2: school to let me know that he'd received a letter

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Speaker 2: from the solicitor, the defendants solicitor, and you know, I

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Speaker 2: needed to stop telling people what he had done to

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Speaker 2: my children, which I certainly wasn't out there telling the community.

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Speaker 2: It was very targeted, as we talked about earlier, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I, yeah, so he was saying all this

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Speaker 2: and I actually was really cranky about that.

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Speaker 1: I'd understand why you yeah cranky about that, and I

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Speaker 1: get cranky about that. You're telling you're trying to protect kids.

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Speaker 2: And he was another person in the community that we knew.

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Speaker 2: We were connected to this guy, and I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: you chose to defend him. But you know what I

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Speaker 2: did Gary, I asked Glenn, I said, how much does

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Speaker 2: it cost for them to send a letter? And he's like,

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Speaker 2: what do you mean? I said, well, how much does

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Speaker 2: every letter cost? And he said, oh, three hundred more

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Speaker 2: than that. I said, well, every time he sends a letter,

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Speaker 2: can you reply and have a question at the end?

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Speaker 1: I love that.

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Speaker 2: I said, if he is found not guilty, at least

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Speaker 2: I will have pleasure in the fact that he's had

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Speaker 2: to pay for it. Because that was the biggest tight

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Speaker 2: asses you've ever met. And you know, I was just like,

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Speaker 2: where do you get your wins? That's where you get

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Speaker 2: your wins?

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Speaker 1: What a brilliant strategy. I like, I don't think it's illegal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah anyway, So yeah, all that sort of stuff was happening.

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Speaker 2: So we had NAT and that was based in Sydney.

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Speaker 2: We were in Aubury. We had the barrister. The Crown

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Speaker 2: Barrister was based in Wogga. His name was Vince and

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Speaker 2: he was exceptional with the kids, had a really great

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Speaker 2: manner with them. So we did start the case. They

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Speaker 2: did start the trial in Aubury. They started the trial

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Speaker 2: and I think that was sort of the August. It was.

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Speaker 2: It was nearly two years at that point. So we

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Speaker 2: went into the courthouse in Aubrey. We did practices. The

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Speaker 2: girls went in there to show you know, where the

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Speaker 2: room was, and that was that was a shit moment,

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Speaker 2: Like for me, I just thought, what am I doing?

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Speaker 2: You Like, this is not like Year ten mock trial.

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Speaker 2: That was my last experience of a court house. It's intimidating,

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Speaker 2: it was, and you know, especially there on a Monday,

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Speaker 2: because there's some interesting characters in the hallways on a Monday.

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Speaker 2: And we yeah, so we went in and they did

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Speaker 2: their practices and them the day that we went Brent

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Speaker 2: had organized everything with military precision because he likes to

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Speaker 2: you know, be on time and in control, and this

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Speaker 2: was totally outside of our control. But he could organize

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Speaker 2: getting the girls into the courthouse without having to see him,

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Speaker 2: you know, So we had friends lined up and helping

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Speaker 2: with that. Anyway, we went in and he was sitting

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Speaker 2: across the aisle, you know, he was sitting across the

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Speaker 2: aisle from from us, and I was just looking, thing,

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Speaker 2: where is the protection, Like there is nothing, there's nothing

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Speaker 2: here for these kids. So this man who had, you know,

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Speaker 2: spent all this time making them feel horrible, was across

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Speaker 2: the isle and he was smug. He just sat there

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Speaker 2: and he looked and it was just yuck. Anyway, So

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Speaker 2: it was it was frightening for the kids. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Look.

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Speaker 2: And so my brother actually came along. My brother is seven

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Speaker 2: years younger than me, and he had lived with us

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Speaker 2: for a period of time and knew these people as well,

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Speaker 2: and he sort of he recognized that the kids were scared,

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Speaker 2: and you know, he sort of kept looking at the

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Speaker 2: window of you know, this room that we're in, and

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Speaker 2: he goes, oh, is that him? And I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's gone, Geezy looks old. I was like, yeah he does,

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Speaker 2: Yeah he does. And I could sort of pick up

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Speaker 2: where he's going. He said, I reckon, he looks a

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Speaker 2: bit fat too. He's like got old and fat. And

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Speaker 2: I was like, yeah he has. And he's like he's

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Speaker 2: just an old, fat motherfucker like me. Anyway, the girl

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Speaker 2: started giggling, and there was you know, some other people

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Speaker 2: in the room as well at the time. Everyone's sort

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Speaker 2: of giggling, and he was named the motherfucker from therefore,

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Speaker 2: like the girls have never used his name, that's what

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Speaker 2: his name is. And it just was enough to make

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Speaker 2: them feel a little bit powerful.

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Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying there, and they can they've

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Speaker 1: got control here, they've got your support them. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: can call it this like what we want to call

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Speaker 1: him because he doesn't deserve any respect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I get it.

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Speaker 1: I get so.

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Speaker 2: You know, that was good and so you take your

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Speaker 2: little wins like that. Unfortunately, for reasons that is, they're

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Speaker 2: too unbelievable and I really don't think people believe it.

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Speaker 2: We ended up not going through with their case in Aubrey.

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Speaker 2: They decided it would be best if it was moved

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Speaker 2: to Sydney.

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Speaker 1: Who decided that.

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Speaker 2: So there was a bit of back room banter between

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Speaker 2: the judge and you know, the barristers about a previous

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Speaker 2: case that had been had and one of the barristers

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Speaker 2: the defense barris so he actually was defending a very

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Speaker 2: well known criminal up here in Sydney later in that week,

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Speaker 2: and so if they started the trial, they they wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be able to complete it at that time, and so

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Speaker 2: it was a very good out for the Crown to say, well,

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Speaker 2: let's not start it. They felt that it would be

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Speaker 2: better if we were not, if we didn't have our

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Speaker 2: trial in that place.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, it goes to Sydney. A couple of

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Speaker 1: things about Sydney and these really hit home to me.

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Speaker 1: You're going to move the whole family up here for

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Speaker 1: four or five weeks. I think that we.

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Speaker 2: Thought we were going to be here for two weeks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it drags on and on the court matter, your

367
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Speaker 1: daughters are going in and you're basically handing them over

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Speaker 1: to people, and you're not allowed into court while they're

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Speaker 1: giving evidence. One of your daughters was in the witness

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Speaker 1: box for five days or giving evidence for five days

371
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Speaker 1: and you can't be present.

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Speaker 2: And that was just during the trial. So we had

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Speaker 2: to have the pre trial because they were trying, they

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Speaker 2: were trying to get the cases separated. So and I

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Speaker 2: don't think people understand that happens a lot, particularly with

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Speaker 2: child sex cases. So what they and it used to

377
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Speaker 2: be very frequent and unfortunately the Royal Commission sort of

378
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Speaker 2: one of their recommendations is that this is a process

379
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Speaker 2: that's looked at. But what they used to do is say, well,

380
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Speaker 2: you can't you know, even though these girls or sisters

381
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Speaker 2: were trying the case separately, because there might have been

382
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Speaker 2: collusion or concoction or whatever. So they did that fancy

383
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Speaker 2: word GUARDI one of those, so the trial before the trial,

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Speaker 2: you know, and again had no knowledge of what that was.

385
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Speaker 2: And so we went to so they came up here

386
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Speaker 2: and they had to do that first. So essentially both

387
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Speaker 2: the girls had to listen to all of their evidence

388
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Speaker 2: and be cross examined, and myself to action and I sucked.

389
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Speaker 2: I was really bad in the pre trial before they

390
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Speaker 2: decided to keep the cases.

391
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Speaker 1: Okay, so that they've had an application to separate the

392
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Speaker 1: separate the trial. So he was charged and probably should

393
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Speaker 1: I should have clarified that earlier. He was charged. I

394
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Speaker 1: believe four counts with Rose.

395
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Speaker 2: I can't remember.

396
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Speaker 1: There were a lot, okay, charges related to Rose and

397
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Speaker 1: charges related to Pepper. Yeah, and they tried to separate

398
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: separate the trial, so that okay, so we've got the trial,

399
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Speaker 1: you've had the voidier where you've got to give evidence

400
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Speaker 1: and you go for all the trauma associated with a

401
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,719
Speaker 1: normal trial anyway, But it's at sake for legal argument

402
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: to determine. Okay, they're going to be heard together, then

403
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 1: you've got to go through through it again. I correct

404
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, but I think one of your

405
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 1: children was giving evidence and had to give evidence again

406
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Speaker 1: because the jury member fell asleep.

407
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Speaker 2: Yep.

408
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 1: And you can't make this stuff up, but no, this

409
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Speaker 1: is this happens. Things happened, but.

410
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Speaker 2: It was and it was interesting. My youngest sister, she's

411
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Speaker 2: fierce and she was she was with the girl, she

412
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Speaker 2: was supporting the girls just outside the room because we

413
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Speaker 2: weren't able to be there, and she when she came

414
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Speaker 2: down after we didn't know what had happened. We just

415
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Speaker 2: knew that they were going to have to impanel a

416
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Speaker 2: new jury. And she came down in the lift you know,

417
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Speaker 2: the back of the Downing Center there and rose like

418
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 2: runs out of the lift and you know, jumps and

419
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: Brent catches her like I haven't just been sitting and

420
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Speaker 2: listening to like, you know, she just had this beautiful

421
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: way about her. But what we didn't realize is that

422
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 2: another lift had come down at the same time opened

423
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Speaker 2: up and these people sort of walked down and stopped,

424
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Speaker 2: and they sort of all ran into one another. You know.

425
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Speaker 2: It was one of those moments. And I looked over

426
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 2: and Anna looked at them, and she gave them this

427
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 2: look like my sister. She gave them this look. I'm like,

428
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 2: oh my goodness, what's going on here? And she said

429
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Speaker 2: get her out of here, get her out of here.

430
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Speaker 2: And I was like, what are you talking about. She

431
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 2: goes one of those motherfuckers just fell asleep, and we

432
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 2: got to start over. We didn't know, we didn't know.

433
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Speaker 2: A couple of those jury members were actually quite tear

434
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 2: particularly when they saw that interaction, I think between Brendan

435
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 2: Rose realizing she was just a little girl. Yeah, and

436
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: because they'd already heard everything so they knew what the

437
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 2: case was about, so they would have Yeah.

438
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: And the trauma. You said, said to me the other

439
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 1: day when we're talking that, how angry you were at

440
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: the judge And do you want to talk about talk

441
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: about that?

442
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,719
Speaker 2: Yeah? So we as I said, So we did that,

443
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 2: and I think that was a few days. I think

444
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 2: it was four or five days. And there was also

445
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: they tried to get a ruling that I couldn't say

446
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 2: how I found out about what had happened to the girls,

447
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: like how it was presented to me. They didn't want

448
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 2: me to be able to say the words, and the

449
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 2: words are very impactful.

450
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: They were trying to stop you, like the first report

451
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: of this is when your five year old daughter jumps

452
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: in the bed and tells you what she told you,

453
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: that that like Leon licking my vagina. They argued to

454
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: exclude that. Yep, I look at the way of evidence

455
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: that comes across. It comes across with that, and I

456
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: just get frustrated with the court system.

457
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's almost like, you know, it hurts our ears

458
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 2: to hear that, like it did. Anyway, Fortunately, they did

459
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: say that we could use that. You know that I

460
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: could because it provide a context.

461
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,959
Speaker 1: Right, and the point that we were talking about was

462
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: your anger and frustration that the judge and the defense

463
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: on how your children were true.

464
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: So we had as I said that multiple days, so

465
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: Rose had to listen to her evidence three times and

466
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 2: then answer questions. They have a witness support person, so

467
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 2: they met that witness support person during the process. We

468
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 2: had there was the lady from SAS from Sexual Assault

469
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: Service in Aubrey came up with us. But because the

470
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: trial went for so long the funding ran out for

471
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: her to be there, so she was actually only there,

472
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: she wasn't really there while they actually gave evidence. And

473
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 2: we also had Maggie who was giving evidence as well

474
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: because she had been a witness to a number of things. Yeah,

475
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 2: so Rose had done this every time the Crown prosecutor,

476
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: so we want to say him, every time he objected

477
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 2: to something, it was like it was overruled. He did

478
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 2: not get for the whole trial, not one wrote. You know,

479
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: Rose was being told she was a liar. She goes

480
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: they called me a liar, you know, like to all

481
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: these things. The language that was you just seven and a.

482
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: Half, seven and a half in a witness box at

483
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: court being called a liar.

484
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 2: Yep, you're a liar.

485
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: So you objective to that overall and it.

486
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,959
Speaker 2: Just the whole thing, it just went like that. It

487
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: was just it was so horrible and it was so

488
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 2: outside anything that I believed could happen. I felt stupid.

489
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 2: I did. I was like, I can't believe they can

490
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 2: do this. I'd it just and every time I looked

491
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 2: at that man, the defense barrister, they had zero respect

492
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 2: for him. I just I could not respect him. He

493
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 2: was short too anyway, So we so Rose did that

494
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: and then Pitt was on for days and she she

495
00:27:58,920 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: couldn't speak.

496
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: By the end, let traumatized.

497
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 2: She could not speak. She ended up actually with really

498
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 2: bad tonsilitis. We had to get a doctor to come

499
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 2: to the hotel. She got really really bad tonsilitis. And

500
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: you know, there were things that happened, like so Janine,

501
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: who was our witness support person, she they asked Rose

502
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 2: seven and a half year old. Rose, who has since

503
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: been diagnosed with dyslexia, asked her to read from a

504
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 2: page on her statement and she couldn't find it, and

505
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,719
Speaker 2: Janine turned the page to get it for her, and

506
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: she was dismissed because she was helping the witness. So

507
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: the one person that they had a connection with was

508
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: dismissed because she was helping the witness. Natalie, the solicitor

509
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: who was talking about she came out of the courtroom

510
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: one day, Brent sitting there. Pips been on the stand

511
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: for a couple of days at this point, and she

512
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: came out really quickly and she said, I've got to

513
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 2: go around the back and talk to pitm And Brent

514
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: was like, is she okay? And she said no, she's

515
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: not okay, and Brent said, well, like, what do we

516
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: do and she said, I don't know. She goes, I'm

517
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 2: just going to talk to her. She just, you know,

518
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: she just needs to answer the questions. If the answers yes,

519
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 2: she says yes. If it's no, she says no. If

520
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: it's I don't know, she says, I don't know. That's

521
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: all she has to do. She's really upset, and then

522
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: she rushed off. Well, the defendant's family heard that interaction.

523
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: Natalie got rooted and had to do training because of it,

524
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: like it impacted on her career.

525
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: Technically in the lead to tell someone what the novel,

526
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: what the person in the witness box is saying, but

527
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: we're talking about a young girl, traumatized young girl, and

528
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: that it's.

529
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: Just and she wasn't saying what she was saying. She

530
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: was just saying. She wasn't saying anything. And the jide

531
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: actually ruled well no, because she used the word if.

532
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: She didn't give that she didn't give the answers to

533
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: the question she said if, and also she didn't say

534
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: what any of it but what happened. And I didn't realize

535
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 2: this at the time. I was at the motel, Pips

536
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: out the back of the courthouse waiting to go in.

537
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: No one knew this was going on, because the next morning,

538
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: you know, there was this and Nat was sort of

539
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: sitting there and Brent went to talk to her and

540
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: she was like no, like, I can't talk to you.

541
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: And then they all got caught as witnesses in this

542
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: side show that was happening while Pip's sitting in the

543
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: back waiting anyway, and then Brent wasn't like Brent wasn't

544
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 2: allowed to talk to Pip, like it was just all this.

545
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: It was just absolute rubbish. And I ended up on

546
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: the Friday, so she'd gone all week, and on the

547
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: Friday they said, look, they're trying to they're trying to

548
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: get the charges dropped. They're saying that Pip's not answering

549
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 2: enough questions. And I said, all right, no worries. I said, well, Glenn,

550
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: I want you to go in there right now, and

551
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: I want them charged with the emotional abuse of my daughter.

552
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: And he sort of looked at me and he's like

553
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: he's like, you're not I would if I could. And

554
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: that's what they're doing. That's what they're doing in there.

555
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 2: They're abusing my children. Anyway, Obviously that didn't happen, So

556
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: that happened. I actually then went back to our hotel,

557
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: my cousin. We had twenty two people in and out

558
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: of that courtroom the whole time we were there. Were

559
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: so well supported, and when I say in and out,

560
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: no one was in there with the kids. They all

561
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 2: sat outside with us. But I went home and did

562
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: a chronology of what had happened since we'd arrived in Sydney,

563
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: so we were up to the end of week three,

564
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: I think at that point, and i'd have said that

565
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: if the charges were dropped, I was happy to go

566
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 2: trial by media. I'm fine with that. And i'd actually

567
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: been in contact with somebody from the media during the

568
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: week and anyway, so that sort of I don't know

569
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: if that prompted anything, but I think everything got a

570
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 2: bit faster after that.

571
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: I don't like to be accountable, and look, I don't

572
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: want you to feed into my anger about some things

573
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: I see at court. But what you've just described there,

574
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: I just from a parent's point of view, I can't

575
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: even comprehend the anger and the frustration you must feel

576
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: when we haven't done anything wrong. My daughters certainly haven't

577
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: done anything wrong. Why we've been treated like that? And

578
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: it's all very well, And I know this sounds very opinionated,

579
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: but it's all very well. When these defense barriss are saying, well,

580
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: everyone's got a right to a defense and all that,

581
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 1: but there's a way in which you can defend people.

582
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: I agree, everyone does have a right to defense, but

583
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,719
Speaker 1: there's a way in which you can defend people so

584
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: their legal rights are met.

585
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: I think it took its toll on him, the defense barrister.

586
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: I watched his demeanor change over that period of time,

587
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: but he still went there with the intention to break

588
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: the children. That was the quickest way to get the

589
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: case to be done.

590
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: If we're talking kids, we're not talking adults in there

591
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: or beating up on the police officer or someone in

592
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: the witness box. We're talking about kids that have come

593
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: forward to the court because they've been sexually assaulted. It

594
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: needs protection. Okay, I'm angry. You were angry and upset, understandably,

595
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: but you actually did something like the advocacy from it,

596
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: and we're going to move into that because I think

597
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: it's very significant the things that flowed on from your

598
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: anger and I'm sure other people's angers and frustrations of

599
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: the system that's just not set up to support children.

600
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: No, that's it.

601
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: No circumstances. So he was convicted only of what he

602
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: did or can I ask you, and you're again only speculating,

603
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: I suppose on why he wasn't convicted of what happened

604
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: with Rose.

605
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 2: So I know that there was a question that came

606
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: back from the jury during that when they were deliberating,

607
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: and the question was if it mattered if she got

608
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: the time wrong, like, you know, if the time frame

609
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: wasn't right, but she'd said what had happened, you know,

610
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: did that matter if they were sure that it had happened,

611
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: And the judge said that that was reasonable doubt. Yeah,

612
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, that that that's hard, Like it's hard, and

613
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,919
Speaker 2: I think that's Roses found that hard as she's got

614
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: older to She didn't know until we did the justice

615
00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 2: shouldn't hurt, which we'll talk about. She didn't know that

616
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 2: he wasn't convicted for charges on her. So when we

617
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: did the victim impact statement, we did one for pimp

618
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 2: and we did one for her too, even though we

619
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: didn't get it. Yeah, I just wanted her to know

620
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:15,959
Speaker 2: that it mattered.

621
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: When the guilty verdict came down. How did you feel personally?

622
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 1: How did the family feel?

623
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: That was a weird day. This is my question that

624
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 2: I last you a couple of years ago because we

625
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 2: went to your show at the Endmore Theater, and my

626
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: question for you was, how do you balance the elation

627
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 2: of a guilty verdict with the feelings of the family

628
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: when nothing's changed. So we were at home and the

629
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 2: girls were at school. You know, the girls had gone

630
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: back to school. My uncle and my cousin stayed up. Well,

631
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: they lived in Sydney, so they went We came home.

632
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: Brent went up the first day and then nothing happened.

633
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 2: So he came back home and they were at the

634
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 2: courthouse and I got the phone call from my uncle

635
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: to say he's been found guilty of seven out of

636
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: eight charges. And I was like okay, And then I

637
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 2: was singing where's Brent? Like he was picking the girls

638
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 2: up from school and I didn't know, you know, where

639
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: he was or where he would be. I was worried

640
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: that it would be not guilty and he'd be picking

641
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: the girls up from school because I did worry how

642
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 2: he would cope with that anyway, So that happened, and

643
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: then my cousin then rang me. He stayed in for

644
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 2: the whole thing, and he got bail. He was found

645
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 2: guilty of child sex offenses and he got bail, so

646
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: he was allowed to walk out of the courthouse that day. Anyway,

647
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: a lot of our friends came over, the people who'd

648
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 2: been supporting us during the trial that you know, the

649
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: years proceeding. Glenn the detective came over and a couple

650
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: of people bought bottles of champagne. And I was sitting

651
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: at the table and everyone was kind of jovial, and

652
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: I do not begrudge to anyone of that at all. Actually,

653
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: I couldn't sit there.

654
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: Yep.

655
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: It just confirmed when I knew already.

656
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: And yeah, when's what's the celebrate?

657
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 2: No, that's all right. And you know who came out, Glenn, Yeah, yeah,

658
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: because he knew.

659
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, yeah. I liked the fact that. And

660
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: one good thing that came from it, you had a

661
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: good officer that could understand that there's not a celebration

662
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: and yeah, I people, and we're being critical of the

663
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: justice system or legal systems. You quite rightly say it's

664
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: not perfect. There's failings and we understand you need checks

665
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 1: and balances, but we're talking about protecting kids and kids

666
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: should be protected and the rights of the accused. I

667
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: fully understand that. I get it all, but again, look

668
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: at the offense and with the sentencing, Like he came

669
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: out and by what did he get sentenced?

670
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 2: So it was three years, nine months and two and

671
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: a half years with parole, so he was out two

672
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:36,919
Speaker 2: and a half years.

673
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: Here I concede that. You know, it's not much of

674
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 1: a concession. That's obvious. Judges have you know, they take

675
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: a lot of things in the consideration. They're smart, smart people.

676
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: I just think the courts need to reflect. The courts

677
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: are there to serve the community, people who have heard

678
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: the story of how one man's actions for his own

679
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: let's break it down, his own sex gratification and the

680
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: impact on how many lives he's are harmed and how

681
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: many lives he is You know, what he's done is

682
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 1: people are going to carry that for the rest of

683
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: their lives. How much money has been spent on him

684
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: and three and a half or what was it, three

685
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: years and two and a half. Yeah, I never from

686
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: a cops point of view, I never bought into the

687
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: actual sentencing. But I would imagine with you, with everything

688
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: you've been through, you've just described the story you described,

689
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: was just getting to the end of the court matter,

690
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: and there's your two and a half years, there's your

691
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: three years sentence. Your family's been sentenced.

692
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 2: So it was look and it was a bit heartening.

693
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 2: And he he did appeal his conviction, and he appealed

694
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: it on the basis that Pipped inn't answer all the questions.

695
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: There were three appeal judges, and I've seen the documents

696
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 2: around that, and there it was a little bit of

697
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 2: hope for me, you know, as everyday citizen that they

698
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 2: were quite professionally damning of some of the decisions that

699
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 2: were made during the trial, including the fact that some

700
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: of Rose's charges had been dropped. Yeah, both before the

701
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 2: trial and during the trial.

702
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: The courts are a complex matter. I suppose the one

703
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: thing I take away from your experience is I didn't

704
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: really appreciate how traumatic it is on the kids. When

705
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: you break it down, you're living with them, you're raising them,

706
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: and what they're going through at that age, and I

707
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 1: can't even comprehend what would be going through their mind.

708
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 2: In this well, even for Mags like she was a

709
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: star witness. You know, in the end she was able

710
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: to just get in there and say and basically put

711
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 2: him in the places where you know, the other two

712
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: had said. So. Yeah, but it was four weeks. She

713
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: waited four weeks for that.

714
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: You said you felt you didn't go well in the

715
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: witness box. I feel pressure going in the witness box.

716
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: I can't even comprehend what.

717
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: Let me say, I didn't the first time around. So

718
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 2: in that pre trial, and unfortunately they gave me too

719
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,959
Speaker 2: much time to read my statements for the main trial

720
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 2: because I could write it off by heart. So when

721
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: they were saying, well, you said this, I was like, no,

722
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: on page four, I actually said that, So it was

723
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: probably you know it was I didn't realize that you

724
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 2: had to memorize it.

725
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: Well, that was an old, old skill that those tourn

726
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 1: detectives we learned verbatim and you had to You couldn't

727
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: refer to your statement, so you learned the whole whole

728
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: of your evidence. But it shouldn't really come down to

729
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:57,439
Speaker 1: a memory test like that. And yeah, I gain. I

730
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: don't like beating up on the legal system because you

731
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: need it and you need the checks and balances and

732
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: I understand that, but I just hate seeing kids traumatize.

733
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: Let's move on something. If anything positive comes from this,

734
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: and sadly it's come after your children, but setting up

735
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: something that's going to change, And I just want to

736
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 1: read this as an article that's been written about the

737
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: type of work that you've done. So the Millthorpes advocacy

738
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: efforts were integral in expanding the Child's Sexual Offense's Evidence

739
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 1: Program to every district court and police district in regional

740
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: New South Wales in twenty twenty three. The program allows

741
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: young people to pre record their evidence, including examination, cross

742
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: examination and re examination in front of a judge and

743
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: lawyers without the jury present. This is done in the

744
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: timely manner, allowing victims to move more quickly into the

745
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: healing part of their journey. You've contributed to that. It's

746
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: pretty powerful. Do you want to break it down what

747
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: that actually means and what the improvements are so people

748
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: don't have to get through what you and your daughters

749
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: went through.

750
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it and look it was so Glenn had

751
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 2: actually mentioned during the trial that they were doing a

752
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 2: pilot program, so kids were given what was called a

753
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 2: witness intermediary, so somebody who would be there when they

754
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 2: were giving their evidence to police, So breaking down some

755
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 2: of those communication barriers, so I said earlier, you know,

756
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,919
Speaker 2: for Rose, she didn't even understand some of the things

757
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 2: were happening, the language and all that sort of thing.

758
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 2: So it was the idea is that you're getting best

759
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 2: evidence from the kids because they've got this person there

760
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: who can help explain questions and those sorts of things.

761
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 2: And then so they quarter pointed, then what happens, so

762
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 2: that's all recorded within six months of that statement happening.

763
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 2: There's a quarter appointed solicitor who will cross examine the

764
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: children with the witness intermediary part of that process again,

765
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 2: and then they record and that is what is presented

766
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: to court. So instead of kids going and spending three

767
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 2: four five days on the stand, they're doing this instead.

768
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: And you know, for us, it was this no brainer

769
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: that you've got somebody there who can help the kids

770
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: participate equitably in the process. Because they've got their language

771
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 2: needs being met, they can move into that, As I said,

772
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 2: the survivor state more quickly, because you know, they're hanging

773
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 2: in his victimhoods. You know, for a number of years

774
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 2: as it turned.

775
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: Out, feeling the pressure of happened to provide the evidence

776
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: at court.

777
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: That's it and then they can kind of move on.

778
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: And the thing is that it's been independently reviewed a

779
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: couple of times now and the review process has said

780
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: that both sides of the law, so you know, prosecutors

781
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 2: and defenders have said that it is not breaching the

782
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 2: rights of the you know, the perpetrated to a fair trial.

783
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: And so you know, it was his no brainer that

784
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 2: was happening in Sydney Newcastle. So it came out to

785
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 2: Australia in twenty fifteen. It was reviewed in twenty eighteen,

786
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 2: and in twenty eighteen they said it would be expanded

787
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 2: across the state and it wasn't. And I was watching

788
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: and it wasn't expanded. And so I had been writing

789
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 2: letters to the Attorney General a number of times. Every

790
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: school holidays was my letter writing time. And you know,

791
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 2: we got up to twenty twenty two and I was

792
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: still getting the exact same letter back from them. And

793
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: we're very sorry that this has happened. We have this,

794
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 2: this and this in process, and I'm telling you that

795
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: doesn't work, and you know, with no intention of it

796
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 2: to be expanded. So the girls wanted to do a fundraiser.

797
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 2: So Rose wanted to do it. She wanted to write

798
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 2: around Australia. I don't know how much it was outruistic

799
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,240
Speaker 2: or whether she just wanted to get out of school,

800
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: like still had the juries out, but she yeah, she

801
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: wanted to raise money for Brave Hearts, the child sexual

802
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 2: assault advocacy group, and so she wanted to do that

803
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 2: and I said, well, if you're going to do that

804
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: and you wanted to raise some awareness about something, what

805
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 2: would you do. And the two of them were sitting

806
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: together at the time, and they both said court is shit,

807
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 2: both of them. And so we talked about this program

808
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: and said this is something that could be available. Do

809
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: you think that would help? And the girl said yes,

810
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 2: And I said, well, why don't we raise awareness for that?

811
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 2: But then at that moment where oh, Roses only she

812
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,479
Speaker 2: was thirteen turning fourteen at the time, and I thought

813
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: she can't you know, I looked into the legal side

814
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 2: of it, and I'm thinking, she can't tell her a story.

815
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 2: So when I told her that, she was pretty pissed off.

816
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 2: And then I wrote some emails and I was emailing

817
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: different organizations trying to find out more about the legal

818
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: side of it. I emailed Nina for now yeah previous,

819
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 2: very impressive voice, she's amazing, and I knew she'd been

820
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: involved in the let Us Speak campaign, so I just

821
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 2: emailed her. I did not expect to get anything back

822
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 2: from her, but in my email I said, this is us,

823
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 2: this is what's happened. There is a solution. This is

824
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 2: a solution, and they're not doing it anyway. Probably an

825
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 2: hour later I got an email back, can I give

826
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: you a call? And then this thing started. So we

827
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,919
Speaker 2: went through it and we talked to her. I said,

828
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 2: and I had seen our local member at the time,

829
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: justin Clancy in Aubrey, and he was really supportive of

830
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 2: trying to get a petition through Parliament so that they

831
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: would have to debate it. You need twenty thousand signatures

832
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 2: and it just wasn't happening quick enough for me or

833
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 2: for any of us. And the petition was that the

834
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 2: Child Sexual Assault Evidence Scheme is extended to include all

835
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 2: children in regional New South Wales because it wasn't right anyway.

836
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 2: So Nina got on board and we started talking. Something

837
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: that she said to me, that's always stuck with me,

838
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 2: and she said, the process of telling the story needs

839
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 2: to be better than the story. And the way that

840
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 2: she cared for our children and our family is exceptional.

841
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:29,479
Speaker 2: She's just an amazing survivor advocate and I just think

842
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 2: she's exceptional. And she yeah. So the story came out.

843
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 2: The Justice Shouldn't Hurt campaign was born, I think the

844
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 2: first day after the Girl's launchestory. And it wasn't that easy,

845
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: like we had to go through court, and you know,

846
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 2: fortunately News Court helped us with that so that Rose

847
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 2: could tell her story, and she did write a really

848
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: powerful letter to the court and she did say I

849
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 2: had a man telling me for a long time that

850
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed to talk and I wasn't allowed to

851
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: tell my story. Then I went to court and I

852
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 2: had men standing in front of me telling me that

853
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: I had that I had to tell my story. And

854
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 2: now you're telling me that I'm allowed to tell my

855
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: story again, you know.

856
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,959
Speaker 1: And so sometimes it needs a clarity of a young

857
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: mind to break down what this is about. How do

858
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 1: you argue against the logic of a child that's it

859
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 1: those statements?

860
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 2: And so they did. They told the story and that

861
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 2: first day there were I think they got we got

862
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: twenty five thousand signatures. I think on the first day.

863
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 2: It was sixty nine thousand by the end of the year.

864
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 2: So it launched in the November and then on the

865
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 2: first of February we came up to Sydney and Dominique Perrete.

866
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 2: At the time he announced bipartisan agreement that it would

867
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 2: be expanded across in New South Wales. So sixty four

868
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 2: point three million dollars was promised to have Witness into

869
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,760
Speaker 2: me year. He's available in every court in South Wales.

870
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, And just the way that you explained that,

871
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: it just seems like a no brainer too, doesn't it.

872
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 2: How that was what people said, So anyone that was commenting,

873
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: and you know, we were a little bit worried about,

874
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 2: you know, some of the things that would come out,

875
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 2: and again, you know, the majority of people are amazing

876
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: and speak really you know, it's a no brainer. I reckon.

877
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 2: That was said so many times, it's a no brainer.

878
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 2: Why are they not doing this? But and when we did,

879
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 2: you know, have a meeting with the premiere at the time,

880
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 2: he you know, he had lots of kids and you

881
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 2: could see he was as a dad was actually disappointed

882
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: that he didn't know about it, And Brent, you know,

883
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 2: he's like, you don't know what you don't know, and

884
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter where you are or what you do,

885
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: Like even as a police officer, it'd be people in

886
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 2: the police that don't know.

887
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: As I said, I was involved in these type of investigations.

888
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: But yeah, hearing it firsthand from someone like yourself and

889
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 1: relaying what your children went through and understanding that you

890
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: look at it and go what sort of society are

891
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: we that we retraumatize children in this way? So and like, well, firstly,

892
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 1: congratulate you, congratulate your girls and Nina and everyone else

893
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: involved in the campaign. What an important, important change that's

894
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: been made to help people so they don't have to

895
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: go through what you and your daughters went.

896
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know Nina is sort of now doing

897
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: more advocacy in that space too, with the next sort

898
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 2: of wave of justice shouldn't hurt, as you've heard, and

899
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 2: I think Nina powersource.

900
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: I walked away after she was seeing in that chair

901
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: that you're sitting in after having her on the podcast,

902
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: and I was just amazed at how strong and passionate

903
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: she was and how articulate she could explain explain things. So, yeah,

904
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: you teamed up with a good person there. The type

905
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: of impact it has on your girls when they're victims

906
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: of child sexual abuse like that, even the way that

907
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 1: they looked at or reacted around their grandfathers or other

908
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: men within your family and the whole it steals away

909
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: some of their child or doesn't it. It does been

910
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: victims of that type of abuse.

911
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:34,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. But I think I contacted a group,

912
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 2: Vocal Victims of Crime Advocacy League. They're based out of Newcastle.

913
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 2: I got in contact with the lady from there. I

914
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 2: can't remember her name, and I wish I could, because

915
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 2: she was very She said to me, you know, you

916
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 2: go from victim to survivor, and then you survive and

917
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 2: then you thrive, and then you thrive and then you

918
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 2: inspire and way put and you know, I've seen them

919
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 2: move through that and again, like they are kids, and

920
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 2: they do have messy rooms and sometimes they're you know,

921
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 2: really really upset me.

922
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 1: Do you want me to give a share that?

923
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 2: But you know the majority of the time they are

924
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 2: living really good life. Some people think that because we've

925
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 2: done this advocacy work, that we are living in this space.

926
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 2: This is not a place that we ever thought we

927
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: would be. Annoys me when people say it. The thing

928
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: is that that you can't know something and then in

929
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 2: good conscience not do something about it if you've got

930
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 2: the capacity, and we could, so we did. My kids

931
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 2: have mostly good days. I watched Rose, you know, the

932
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 2: nearly you know, sixteen and a half year old writing

933
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 2: different waves of her journey because her understanding has changed

934
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,240
Speaker 2: over time about what happened, and you know what that means,

935
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,720
Speaker 2: and you know that that's been an interesting journey to watch.

936
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:23,439
Speaker 2: But most days are good. That's the reality. Most days

937
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 2: are good. We've had people step up in our life,

938
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 2: and we've had people step out, and that's okay because

939
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 2: I think when you are passionate about something and you

940
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 2: know it's right, then you've just got to do it.

941
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 1: You made a comment earlier on that sometimes you've got

942
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: to screen that allow us to get things done. And

943
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: I think what you articulated there is that you've experienced it.

944
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 1: You had the so that you had the energy, you

945
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: had the passion, had the ability to make a difference.

946
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: And I think the world is a better place when

947
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: people like you you step up. But the thing that

948
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: I've seen a scene about you and our communications is

949
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: that you're not going through life as a victim. You're

950
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: making making the difference and you can still laugh and

951
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:25,839
Speaker 1: you come in here, you can laugh, you can cry,

952
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 1: but yeah, you're still experiencing life. But I think the

953
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 1: kids have been fortunate to have someone like yourself and

954
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: Brent aren't. They're they're supporting them, and it looks like

955
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: you've got through this or getting through it, I should

956
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: say as a family.

957
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh look, I don't get it right all the time.

958
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 2: I can tell you that I don't, but I don't know.

959
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: That's what Brent was, So.

960
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 2: I I why would you give someone like that more power?

961
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 1: Yeah? I like your avitude.

962
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've deliberately chosen not to hate because that's a

963
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 2: really strong emotion that takes a lot of energy. I

964
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 2: don't think I can forgive, but I can be indifferent.

965
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 1: The difference are very powerful, Yeah.

966
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:19,240
Speaker 2: And I think that's what I need to do my kids. Rose.

967
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 2: Rose is very forgiving because she's a if you don't forgive,

968
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,839
Speaker 2: you don't grow type person. And I love that about her.

969
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 2: But she won't forget. Yeah, everyone's on a different journey,

970
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 2: but we all have made a really deliberate choice to

971
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,280
Speaker 2: live a good life.

972
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: That's that's I don't want to use the word revenge,

973
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: but that's the way that you you're insignificant, put put

974
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: in the past. Now you've got some other things that

975
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: you're working on too. Yeah, Gluton, Gluton for punishment. Are

976
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 1: you you looking at running running for parliament?

977
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,840
Speaker 2: I am. Yeah. Someone said to me today at the airport,

978
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 2: a parent of an ex student. He said, oh, what

979
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 2: are you up? Chair said, I've decided to run for parliament.

980
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 2: He goes, oh, are you doing local government? Oh no,

981
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 2: I went straight straight to the top anyway. He's like,

982
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 2: what are you doing? So we live in Pharah. I

983
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, we do anyway. So look, I I

984
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: there was a tweet that somebody put out last year

985
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 2: that was really not nice and didn't reflect me as

986
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 2: a person or anybody that I knew, and was really unrelatable.

987
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 2: And I'll just look at federal politics at the moment

988
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 2: and go, there's no there's no teachers in there, there's

989
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 2: no police in there. Well there are, but they were

990
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 2: a really long long time ago. There's no regular people who.

991
00:57:59,280 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 1: You know.

992
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 2: Wanted to just make sure that people are thriving and

993
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 2: regional communities get overlooked. They do, and regional equity is

994
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 2: a real issue. And this, you know, the Justice Shouldn't

995
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 2: Hurt campaign, and seeing what we had to do to

996
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 2: get justice, you know, it was glaringly obvious that there's

997
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 2: things that are missed out on because of our regional location.

998
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 2: And we live in inner city, so you know, for

999
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 2: people further out west and you know, in more remote areas,

1000
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 2: they're missing out on things. And I don't think that's fair.

1001
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: That's fair. Now going in the politics, Well, you've shown

1002
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 1: that you've got the got the energy, and you've got

1003
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: the capacity and the sense of justice. So I don't

1004
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: think that's a bad starting point in the politics. And

1005
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: I take on board what you're saying that people that

1006
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: people in touch with what goes on in communities from

1007
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: a regional point of view, but also teaching, and there's

1008
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 1: a lot and we're going off off track a little

1009
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 1: bit here, but so much in the media at the

1010
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,959
Speaker 1: moment about youth crime and different things and the way

1011
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: to deal with youth crime. I've always thought, on law

1012
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 1: and all the issues, put money into education, because I

1013
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: think education can do so much good pointing people in

1014
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: the right direction. And if you do get in politics,

1015
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: this is just a theory. So you can take this

1016
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: one into we want to get tough on crime, Let's

1017
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 1: look at how much crime emanates from child sexual abuse.

1018
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 1: Let's look at how many people are in prison because

1019
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: there abuse and as children and have ended up in prison.

1020
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 1: So how do we really fight fight crime? Well, let's

1021
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 1: fight something that causes a lot of crime. It's it's

1022
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 1: not a theory, it's the statistics are out there. It's ridiculous.

1023
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous, and we've got to look at things like that.

1024
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: But anyway, where what's the seat you run for?

1025
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 2: So Fara? So it's one hundred and twenty six thousand

1026
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 2: square kilometers yep, yeah, just east of Auburry, Gingerlic sort

1027
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 2: of and then all the way to South Astralian border

1028
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: up through Griffith and places like that. Danili Quinn Yeah,

1029
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 2: so yeah, I.

1030
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 1: Know the areas I've been down, yeah in my policing

1031
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: days and different things down that way. So oh look,

1032
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: good good luck to here you and I want to

1033
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: say too, thank you, not just thanks for coming on

1034
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: the podcast that's given, but the fact that you have

1035
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: made a difference in the justice system, and it takes

1036
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: people taking a stand, and what your daughters have stood

1037
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: up to. And I said to you, I'm not sure

1038
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 1: if I said it on the podcast, but I'll say it.

1039
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: I know I said it to you off Mike. The

1040
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 1: way that your girls are presenting themselves like full credit

1041
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 1: to full credit to should.

1042
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 2: Be proud of them. I am. I am. Yeah, good stuff,

1043
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 2: all right, thanks very much, Thank you.