1 00:00:03,460 --> 00:00:06,010 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,100 --> 00:00:09,830 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. It's been a turbulent 12 months for Australia's media 3 00:00:09,830 --> 00:00:14,160 Sean Aylmer: companies. First, advertising revenue was whacked by the pandemic, despite 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,470 Sean Aylmer: a huge appetite for news and information. Then there was 5 00:00:17,470 --> 00:00:20,489 Sean Aylmer: a very public fight with Facebook, which saw the digital 6 00:00:20,489 --> 00:00:24,069 Sean Aylmer: giant ban news content from Australian providers. There were CEOs 7 00:00:24,070 --> 00:00:27,900 Sean Aylmer: changing, big shifts in radio ratings, a delayed Olympics broadcast 8 00:00:28,150 --> 00:00:30,440 Sean Aylmer: and plenty more. So what did it all mean for 9 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,180 Sean Aylmer: the media companies and their shareholders? And what's the future 10 00:00:33,180 --> 00:00:36,440 Sean Aylmer: look like for an industry set for more consolidation? Tim 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,110 Sean Aylmer: Burrowes is the founder and editor at large of Mumbrella, 12 00:00:39,150 --> 00:00:42,170 Sean Aylmer: and now the proprietor of media and marketing industry newsletter, 13 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:45,629 Sean Aylmer: Unmade. That's U- N- M- A- D- E, Unmade. Tim, 14 00:00:45,629 --> 00:00:46,729 Sean Aylmer: welcome back to Fear and Greed. 15 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:48,810 Tim Burrowes: Hey, Sean. Lovely to be back again. 16 00:00:49,370 --> 00:00:51,580 Sean Aylmer: So broadly speaking, and before we look at the individual 17 00:00:51,580 --> 00:00:55,179 Sean Aylmer: companies, how do you think the media industry as a whole has fared 18 00:00:55,180 --> 00:00:56,070 Sean Aylmer: over the past year? 19 00:00:56,490 --> 00:01:00,230 Tim Burrowes: Well, look. Clearly it wasn't the year anybody was expecting. 20 00:01:00,230 --> 00:01:01,700 Tim Burrowes: So I think we thought it would be a year 21 00:01:01,700 --> 00:01:04,539 Tim Burrowes: of deal- making, but everything was put on hold because 22 00:01:04,539 --> 00:01:07,610 Tim Burrowes: of the pandemic. And then it was very much a 23 00:01:07,610 --> 00:01:11,990 Tim Burrowes: story of, depending how much exposure one had to advertising 24 00:01:11,990 --> 00:01:15,499 Tim Burrowes: markets, just how bad it was for the media companies. 25 00:01:15,830 --> 00:01:18,010 Tim Burrowes: Now, for some of them, there were little bright spots. 26 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,539 Tim Burrowes: Now you certainly wouldn't say that about the outdoor sector, 27 00:01:20,539 --> 00:01:23,469 Tim Burrowes: for instance, which obviously lost a lot of revenue because 28 00:01:24,050 --> 00:01:26,839 Tim Burrowes: people just weren't traveling as much. But I suppose if 29 00:01:26,839 --> 00:01:30,309 Tim Burrowes: I had to point to one company and one CEO 30 00:01:30,690 --> 00:01:33,209 Tim Burrowes: that made the best of the crisis, it would be 31 00:01:33,209 --> 00:01:36,100 Tim Burrowes: Seven West Media and James Warburton, who was going to have 32 00:01:36,100 --> 00:01:38,809 Tim Burrowes: to cut so much out of the company's cost base 33 00:01:38,810 --> 00:01:42,639 Tim Burrowes: anyway, because it had a pretty big debt number and 34 00:01:42,690 --> 00:01:45,649 Tim Burrowes: the dawn of COVID was an opportunity to lean quite 35 00:01:45,649 --> 00:01:48,470 Tim Burrowes: hard on things like the sporting codes, where they were 36 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:49,639 Tim Burrowes: paying a lot for the rights. 37 00:01:50,170 --> 00:01:54,719 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Seven is an interesting one because it's actually quite a small company, given how 38 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,419 Sean Aylmer: influential it is in society, obviously, because that's... when you've got 39 00:01:59,419 --> 00:02:03,680 Sean Aylmer: a free to air TV station, you have outsized influence. Where is 40 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:04,329 Sean Aylmer: that one up to? 41 00:02:04,780 --> 00:02:07,889 Tim Burrowes: Yeah. And obviously, as you'd know, there's more than one 42 00:02:07,890 --> 00:02:09,760 Tim Burrowes: way of measuring a company, but if you measure it 43 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,870 Tim Burrowes: by market capitalisation, then it's worth about 700 million, which 44 00:02:13,870 --> 00:02:16,290 Tim Burrowes: is surprising when you think Seven West Media, it's not 45 00:02:16,290 --> 00:02:20,220 Tim Burrowes: just the TV network. It's also extensive sort of publishing 46 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:25,219 Tim Burrowes: interests in West Australia with The West Australian newspaper, recently 47 00:02:25,220 --> 00:02:28,010 Tim Burrowes: gave up its ownership of Pacific Magazines. But one of 48 00:02:28,010 --> 00:02:31,330 Tim Burrowes: the reasons why the share price is reasonably subdued, is 49 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,029 Tim Burrowes: because there is a chunky net debt still, about 240 50 00:02:35,010 --> 00:02:38,519 Tim Burrowes: million as of the end of the last financial year 51 00:02:38,519 --> 00:02:40,930 Tim Burrowes: and probably set to go up again a little bit. 52 00:02:41,220 --> 00:02:43,730 Tim Burrowes: So there's a challenge there, and also the other challenges, 53 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:49,040 Tim Burrowes: lots of exposure to traditional media and not so much 54 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:50,820 Tim Burrowes: exposure to kind of growth media. 55 00:02:51,450 --> 00:02:53,609 Sean Aylmer: So they've missed out a bit on the streaming side 56 00:02:53,609 --> 00:02:54,389 Sean Aylmer: of things, Seven? 57 00:02:54,730 --> 00:02:57,829 Tim Burrowes: Yeah, look. That was the place where things could have 58 00:02:57,829 --> 00:03:01,719 Tim Burrowes: been so different. There was a conversation early on about Stan, 59 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,330 Tim Burrowes: which is now obviously a hundred per cent owned by Nine. 60 00:03:04,910 --> 00:03:07,459 Tim Burrowes: It could have been a joint venture between Nine and 61 00:03:07,459 --> 00:03:11,079 Tim Burrowes: Seven and in the end, at the time, Tim Worner, 62 00:03:11,079 --> 00:03:14,440 Tim Burrowes: the CEO and I think more likely Kerry Stokes, the chairman, 63 00:03:14,709 --> 00:03:18,609 Tim Burrowes: chose to do a partnership with Foxtel and News Corp being 64 00:03:18,609 --> 00:03:22,250 Tim Burrowes: the dominant shareholder there for something called Presto, which failed 65 00:03:22,250 --> 00:03:26,889 Tim Burrowes: very quickly, but meant that Seven was then left without 66 00:03:26,950 --> 00:03:30,560 Tim Burrowes: a paid subscription play. So that's still a big gap 67 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,120 Tim Burrowes: for Seven as a TV company. 68 00:03:32,630 --> 00:03:34,980 Sean Aylmer: What I find interesting about Seven, is that it's worth 69 00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:38,080 Sean Aylmer: 700 million and its CEO, albeit on the back of 70 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,070 Sean Aylmer: getting options on share prices when it was very low, 71 00:03:41,740 --> 00:03:45,160 Sean Aylmer: but still he's a very well paid CEO given the 72 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:46,050 Sean Aylmer: size of the company. 73 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,930 Tim Burrowes: Yeah, look. One of the things that gets disclosed in 74 00:03:49,090 --> 00:03:52,560 Tim Burrowes: earnings season, as you'd know, is CEO remuneration. And of course, 75 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,650 Tim Burrowes: an awful lot is also based on share incentives, short 76 00:03:55,650 --> 00:03:59,930 Tim Burrowes: term incentives, long-term incentives. So although he's on a reasonably low, 77 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,119 Tim Burrowes: for CEOs, basic package, and this is from memory, but 78 00:04:03,119 --> 00:04:05,510 Tim Burrowes: I think about just over a million dollars a year, 79 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,890 Tim Burrowes: his full package in the year just gone was $ 7.6 80 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,490 Tim Burrowes: million because of the way that his incentives have been set. 81 00:04:13,780 --> 00:04:16,650 Tim Burrowes: And the fact that the share price did recover quite 82 00:04:16,650 --> 00:04:19,669 Tim Burrowes: significantly over the last six months or so. So as 83 00:04:19,670 --> 00:04:23,029 Tim Burrowes: a result, the company's market capitalisation is pretty much double 84 00:04:23,029 --> 00:04:25,969 Tim Burrowes: where it was at the low point. So it is 85 00:04:25,969 --> 00:04:29,529 Tim Burrowes: a company which is showing some signs of recovery. Not 86 00:04:29,529 --> 00:04:33,099 Tim Burrowes: sure it's completely out of the woods yet, but one 87 00:04:33,099 --> 00:04:35,900 Tim Burrowes: of the great things about capitalism, is CEOs that deliver for 88 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:37,679 Tim Burrowes: shareholders are rewarded for it. 89 00:04:38,140 --> 00:04:40,660 Sean Aylmer: Yep. Now what's your take on Nine, Seven's main competitor? 90 00:04:41,580 --> 00:04:45,869 Tim Burrowes: Nine is an interesting one for me, because the question 91 00:04:45,870 --> 00:04:48,549 Tim Burrowes: for me still is, Mike Sneesby took over as CEO 92 00:04:49,289 --> 00:04:52,300 Tim Burrowes: just a few months ago, from a very successful five 93 00:04:52,300 --> 00:04:56,390 Tim Burrowes: year stint from Hugh Marks. And I'm not quite sure 94 00:04:56,390 --> 00:04:59,760 Tim Burrowes: if I see yet where he's going to take the strategy. 95 00:05:00,140 --> 00:05:04,400 Tim Burrowes: So Hugh marks had taken Nine through the merger/ takeover 96 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,299 Tim Burrowes: of Fairfax to create Australia's largest local based media company. 97 00:05:10,020 --> 00:05:13,089 Tim Burrowes: And the big challenge for Nine is, where to get 98 00:05:13,089 --> 00:05:16,100 Tim Burrowes: growth now. Now, the publishing side of the business, so 99 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,650 Tim Burrowes: the AFR, The Sydney Morning Herald, The Age, is probably 100 00:05:19,650 --> 00:05:22,650 Tim Burrowes: going a little bit better than people expected and thanks to 101 00:05:22,650 --> 00:05:26,270 Tim Burrowes: the money that's coming through from Google and Facebook, that 102 00:05:26,270 --> 00:05:28,510 Tim Burrowes: will look quite good in the financial year we're in 103 00:05:28,510 --> 00:05:31,969 Tim Burrowes: now as well. The big question is Stan. It's a 104 00:05:31,969 --> 00:05:35,870 Tim Burrowes: future play. It probably contributes maybe a billion dollars to 105 00:05:35,870 --> 00:05:39,760 Tim Burrowes: Nine's market capitalisation, which is about 4.8 billion at the moment, 106 00:05:40,339 --> 00:05:44,760 Tim Burrowes: but it takes constant investment to just sometimes stand still, 107 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,609 Tim Burrowes: let alone go forward. So that means more money on 108 00:05:47,609 --> 00:05:52,300 Tim Burrowes: sports rights, more money on local productions, more money on acquisitions. 109 00:05:52,630 --> 00:05:55,570 Tim Burrowes: So if there's anything that the market questions at the moment, 110 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,839 Tim Burrowes: it's how does Stan contribute a bigger profit number than 111 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:00,870 Tim Burrowes: it does at the moment? 112 00:06:01,359 --> 00:06:02,839 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Tim. We'll be back in a 113 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:03,020 Sean Aylmer: minute. 114 00:06:08,229 --> 00:06:11,099 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Tim Burrowes, editor at large 115 00:06:11,099 --> 00:06:14,140 Sean Aylmer: of Mumbrella and the owner of media and marketing industry 116 00:06:14,140 --> 00:06:18,080 Sean Aylmer: newsletter, Unmade. And so if we move away from those 117 00:06:18,370 --> 00:06:21,809 Sean Aylmer: two major players, and I note that you think of 118 00:06:21,810 --> 00:06:24,059 Sean Aylmer: News Corp more as an international company, which I agree, 119 00:06:24,060 --> 00:06:28,240 Sean Aylmer: notwithstanding its interest in other properties like REA. So let's 120 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,389 Sean Aylmer: just leave News Corp to one side, thinking about this 121 00:06:30,390 --> 00:06:31,979 Sean Aylmer: nationally, what about regional television? 122 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,830 Tim Burrowes: That's very interesting at the moment. Now, there are a 123 00:06:35,830 --> 00:06:38,770 Tim Burrowes: few, sort of what I'd almost describe as orphan media 124 00:06:38,770 --> 00:06:41,980 Tim Burrowes: companies, the ones that they're not really the scale that it 125 00:06:42,070 --> 00:06:44,520 Tim Burrowes: even makes sense for them to be on the ASX 126 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,100 Tim Burrowes: and Prime Media Group is one of those. That's the 127 00:06:47,450 --> 00:06:50,440 Tim Burrowes: regional affiliate of Seven at the moment, there's about two 128 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,250 Tim Burrowes: years left of that affiliation deal. And the big question 129 00:06:55,260 --> 00:06:57,929 Tim Burrowes: there is, well, what happens to that company? Because there 130 00:06:57,930 --> 00:07:00,849 Tim Burrowes: are two or three quite big shareholders that might have 131 00:07:00,849 --> 00:07:06,089 Tim Burrowes: a say, and that includes Antony Catalano, who owns Australian 132 00:07:06,089 --> 00:07:10,110 Tim Burrowes: Community Media, the regional newspaper publishing group, but also Bruce 133 00:07:10,110 --> 00:07:13,150 Tim Burrowes: Gordon owns quite a big stake as well. And Seven 134 00:07:13,150 --> 00:07:17,250 Tim Burrowes: itself owns about a 15% stake. So it feels like in 135 00:07:17,250 --> 00:07:19,619 Tim Burrowes: some way, Prime Media will get sliced up and the 136 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,069 Tim Burrowes: logic of that will be, it would just be merged 137 00:07:22,070 --> 00:07:25,129 Tim Burrowes: into Seven. And that was the deal that James Warburton 138 00:07:25,130 --> 00:07:28,410 Tim Burrowes: from seven and Kerry Stokes tried to do and were 139 00:07:28,410 --> 00:07:31,879 Tim Burrowes: blocked by the other shareholders from doing, and where it 140 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,460 Tim Burrowes: really becomes interesting, is when we get closer to the 141 00:07:35,460 --> 00:07:38,050 Tim Burrowes: end of the affiliation deal, because at the same time, you 142 00:07:38,050 --> 00:07:43,470 Tim Burrowes: also have Southern Cross Austereo currently affiliated with Ten, which 143 00:07:43,470 --> 00:07:47,870 Tim Burrowes: rates less well than Seven. That affiliation deal between Southern 144 00:07:47,870 --> 00:07:51,410 Tim Burrowes: Cross Austereo and Ten also has two years left to 145 00:07:51,410 --> 00:07:55,030 Tim Burrowes: run. And there could be all sorts of behind- the- 146 00:07:55,030 --> 00:07:58,500 Tim Burrowes: scenes dancing going on about who might affiliate with who 147 00:07:58,989 --> 00:08:01,070 Tim Burrowes: or who might buy who. 148 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,380 Sean Aylmer: So does Southern Cross Austereo want a regional television network? 149 00:08:05,710 --> 00:08:08,900 Tim Burrowes: That is the big question at the moment. So Grant 150 00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:12,330 Tim Burrowes: Blackley, the CEO, has sent a couple of signals that 151 00:08:12,330 --> 00:08:15,280 Tim Burrowes: the company is much more interested in audio these days. 152 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,880 Tim Burrowes: So in the Metro markets, it's got two networks. It's 153 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:20,580 Tim Burrowes: got the Hit Network and it's got the Triple M 154 00:08:20,580 --> 00:08:24,880 Tim Burrowes: network and then quite strong regional radio player as well, 155 00:08:25,210 --> 00:08:28,809 Tim Burrowes: and is pushing really hard into audio through its listener 156 00:08:28,870 --> 00:08:31,119 Tim Burrowes: app as much as anything else. So it sees a 157 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,030 Tim Burrowes: lot of its future about audio and audio streaming, as 158 00:08:35,030 --> 00:08:38,630 Tim Burrowes: well as traditional radio and seems a lot less interested 159 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,679 Tim Burrowes: in the television side of the business. So I think, 160 00:08:41,730 --> 00:08:45,910 Tim Burrowes: if the company could get a good price for its 161 00:08:45,910 --> 00:08:48,819 Tim Burrowes: TV stations, which are all on the regional side of 162 00:08:48,819 --> 00:08:51,820 Tim Burrowes: things, it would probably move away from that. 163 00:08:52,309 --> 00:08:55,610 Sean Aylmer: So possibly you could end up with Ten buying Southern 164 00:08:55,610 --> 00:09:00,309 Sean Aylmer: Cross Austereo's regional TV business. You could find Prime ending 165 00:09:00,309 --> 00:09:03,499 Sean Aylmer: up back in Seven. I know you think that there 166 00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:06,340 Sean Aylmer: will be consolidation as we go forward, do you think 167 00:09:06,340 --> 00:09:08,390 Sean Aylmer: that's kind of where we're going, down that path, even 168 00:09:08,390 --> 00:09:09,969 Sean Aylmer: if they're not the partners necessarily? 169 00:09:10,429 --> 00:09:12,900 Tim Burrowes: Yeah, I think that's the big question, is who the partners are? 170 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:15,839 Tim Burrowes: Because for instance, then when you look at the international 171 00:09:15,839 --> 00:09:19,400 Tim Burrowes: side of things, Ten being owned by ViacomCBS, have they 172 00:09:19,410 --> 00:09:23,290 Tim Burrowes: actually got the appetite to be doing more buying? And 173 00:09:23,290 --> 00:09:26,300 Tim Burrowes: then of course, one of the kind of other, I suppose, 174 00:09:26,300 --> 00:09:30,239 Tim Burrowes: sort of weird dynamics when it comes to the Metro 175 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,309 Tim Burrowes: TV networks and their affiliates, is they quite like the 176 00:09:33,309 --> 00:09:35,900 Tim Burrowes: relatively easy money that comes from the affiliates. So if 177 00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:38,709 Tim Burrowes: they just get 50% of every dollar in advertising the 178 00:09:38,709 --> 00:09:42,329 Tim Burrowes: affiliate writes, then that's quite nice lazy money for them. 179 00:09:42,329 --> 00:09:45,160 Tim Burrowes: So it needs to be a really great deal for them 180 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,650 Tim Burrowes: to actually buy the affiliates in the first place. So 181 00:09:47,860 --> 00:09:50,010 Tim Burrowes: when Seven tried it with Prime, it was actually through 182 00:09:50,010 --> 00:09:52,650 Tim Burrowes: a merger rather than parting with any cash. 183 00:09:53,300 --> 00:09:57,240 Sean Aylmer: Now, HT& E own KIIS and Gold. That's correct, isn't it? 184 00:09:57,459 --> 00:09:57,900 Tim Burrowes: Yes. 185 00:09:58,220 --> 00:10:00,030 Sean Aylmer: How are they performing? I mean, they've got some pretty 186 00:10:00,030 --> 00:10:01,709 Sean Aylmer: high rated radio stations. 187 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,160 Tim Burrowes: Yeah. So HT& E, Here There and Everywhere, what used to 188 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,739 Tim Burrowes: be known as APN News and Media back in the day. 189 00:10:08,290 --> 00:10:11,890 Tim Burrowes: So these days, very much an audio and radio company. 190 00:10:11,890 --> 00:10:15,140 Tim Burrowes: So performing very strongly at the moment, they've got market 191 00:10:15,140 --> 00:10:18,209 Tim Burrowes: leading stations in Sydney and Melbourne and doing quite well 192 00:10:18,209 --> 00:10:21,269 Tim Burrowes: in other markets as well. And for HT& E, is 193 00:10:21,270 --> 00:10:23,470 Tim Burrowes: such a big question of just how much of a 194 00:10:23,470 --> 00:10:27,300 Tim Burrowes: player they can be in the coming consolidations? Because they've 195 00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:30,510 Tim Burrowes: had this ongoing dispute with the tax man for a 196 00:10:30,510 --> 00:10:33,739 Tim Burrowes: few years now, which goes right back to the company's 197 00:10:33,740 --> 00:10:37,370 Tim Burrowes: tax returns since 2009, on was to do with when 198 00:10:37,429 --> 00:10:42,240 Tim Burrowes: the previous company sold its interest in New Zealand newspapers. 199 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:47,780 Tim Burrowes: So there's about a $ 150 million at play, which maybe will 200 00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:50,500 Tim Burrowes: end up just in the coffers of HT&E, in which case, 201 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:52,470 Tim Burrowes: then the question is what to do with it? Or 202 00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:55,130 Tim Burrowes: could end up with the tax man, depending how things go. 203 00:10:55,839 --> 00:10:58,959 Tim Burrowes: So you've got very much this just big question mark 204 00:10:58,959 --> 00:11:01,900 Tim Burrowes: over how much of a player HT& E can be 205 00:11:02,219 --> 00:11:05,300 Tim Burrowes: until the tax issues are resolved. And then just to 206 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:08,990 Tim Burrowes: make it really complicated, on the one hand News Corp 207 00:11:09,069 --> 00:11:13,829 Tim Burrowes: owns 15% of HT&E and on the other, HT& E 208 00:11:13,829 --> 00:11:17,640 Tim Burrowes: owns about 4% of the Out of Home company, oOh! media. 209 00:11:18,110 --> 00:11:22,839 Sean Aylmer: Right. Well, about oOh! media, it's incredibly tied up. A 210 00:11:22,839 --> 00:11:26,829 Sean Aylmer: lot of these media organisations really have close affiliations with 211 00:11:26,829 --> 00:11:29,150 Sean Aylmer: each other. And what I always think is interesting, they chop 212 00:11:29,150 --> 00:11:32,459 Sean Aylmer: and change too. They're best friends for a while, but 213 00:11:32,459 --> 00:11:33,229 Sean Aylmer: not for a long while. 214 00:11:33,740 --> 00:11:36,140 Tim Burrowes: Absolutely, yes. And you can definitely see it with the 215 00:11:36,140 --> 00:11:39,740 Tim Burrowes: families as well. You know, keeping track of how Kerry 216 00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:43,240 Tim Burrowes: Stokes feels about the Murdochs, how the Murdochs back in 217 00:11:43,260 --> 00:11:46,000 Tim Burrowes: the day felt about the Packers. And sometimes they would 218 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,490 Tim Burrowes: be bitter enemies and at the moment, one gets the 219 00:11:48,490 --> 00:11:51,719 Tim Burrowes: sense that Kerry Stokes, obviously the ultimate proprietor of Seven 220 00:11:51,719 --> 00:11:54,910 Tim Burrowes: West Media, is actually quite close to News Corp and 221 00:11:54,910 --> 00:11:58,480 Tim Burrowes: we might see some conversations there, but yeah. oOh! media, now 222 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,349 Tim Burrowes: run by Cathy O'Connor relatively new as the CEO, previously 223 00:12:02,350 --> 00:12:08,379 Tim Burrowes: ran Lachlan Murdoch's NOVA Entertainment radio group. And oOh! media, I 224 00:12:08,380 --> 00:12:12,250 Tim Burrowes: guess in recovery on the ASX, so turnover for the 225 00:12:12,250 --> 00:12:14,949 Tim Burrowes: half year, and they only had half year results, of 226 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:17,809 Tim Burrowes: about quarter of a million dollars and delivered a profit 227 00:12:17,809 --> 00:12:20,829 Tim Burrowes: of just a little over a hundred million, which was 228 00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:23,530 Tim Burrowes: the beginning of a recovery. Because as an Out of 229 00:12:23,530 --> 00:12:26,879 Tim Burrowes: Home company, it had it much worse than most. And 230 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,170 Tim Burrowes: I get the sense that we're just beginning to see 231 00:12:29,219 --> 00:12:31,699 Tim Burrowes: Cathy O'Connor's sort of strategy coming through, which is very 232 00:12:31,699 --> 00:12:35,679 Tim Burrowes: much pure play Out of Home. So digitise the billboards 233 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:37,670 Tim Burrowes: because then you can run more ads on them and 234 00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:41,170 Tim Burrowes: make more money and get out of the distractions. So at 235 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,790 Tim Burrowes: the moment on the block is Junkee Media, the youth 236 00:12:44,790 --> 00:12:48,390 Tim Burrowes: publishing arm, which was owned by oOh! media, but I don't 237 00:12:48,390 --> 00:12:50,290 Tim Burrowes: think will be for very much longer. So that will 238 00:12:50,290 --> 00:12:51,440 Tim Burrowes: be one of those deals. 239 00:12:51,959 --> 00:12:54,329 Sean Aylmer: And just finally, before you go, Tim. The online real 240 00:12:54,329 --> 00:12:56,380 Sean Aylmer: estate companies, do you think of those as media companies? 241 00:12:56,380 --> 00:12:58,809 Sean Aylmer: Domain and REA being the two big ones. 242 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,439 Tim Burrowes: Yeah. Look, it's really difficult, isn't it? Because they certainly 243 00:13:01,439 --> 00:13:04,429 Tim Burrowes: don't have the same model. So I probably, when I 244 00:13:04,429 --> 00:13:07,589 Tim Burrowes: write about them for Unmade, I think about them a 245 00:13:07,589 --> 00:13:11,079 Tim Burrowes: little bit less, but they underpin the share prices of 246 00:13:11,260 --> 00:13:15,939 Tim Burrowes: both News Corp and of Nine. So, both of those organisations, 247 00:13:15,939 --> 00:13:21,170 Tim Burrowes: own more than half of them and they're huge organisations. So, Domain, 248 00:13:21,219 --> 00:13:24,679 Tim Burrowes: the one that's majority owned by Nine, turnover of nearly 249 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,130 Tim Burrowes: 300 million a year, market cap on its own, at 3. 250 00:13:28,410 --> 00:13:32,270 Tim Burrowes: 2 billion and then REA is, you wouldn't think of it, 251 00:13:32,270 --> 00:13:35,569 Tim Burrowes: but it's actually one of the... Well, arguably it's the 252 00:13:35,569 --> 00:13:39,550 Tim Burrowes: biggest media company in Australia with a market capitalisation of 253 00:13:39,550 --> 00:13:40,670 Tim Burrowes: more than 20 billion. 254 00:13:41,089 --> 00:13:43,709 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. I always think REA is interesting. It's a top 25, 255 00:13:43,709 --> 00:13:46,640 Sean Aylmer: top 30 stock, and you don't think much about it, but 256 00:13:46,699 --> 00:13:50,010 Sean Aylmer: it is a lot bigger, it's miles bigger than Qantas 257 00:13:50,010 --> 00:13:52,040 Sean Aylmer: for example. And some of those sort of more iconic 258 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,910 Sean Aylmer: companies that you talk about. REA has done incredibly well in 259 00:13:55,089 --> 00:13:55,780 Sean Aylmer: the last few years. 260 00:13:56,089 --> 00:14:00,740 Tim Burrowes: Look, it really has. It's got international exposure and overall, 261 00:14:00,969 --> 00:14:04,089 Tim Burrowes: when people think about Lachlan Murdoch, Rupert Murdoch's son, and 262 00:14:04,089 --> 00:14:07,390 Tim Burrowes: the sort of increasingly dominant within News Corp, he's made 263 00:14:07,390 --> 00:14:12,179 Tim Burrowes: some bad decisions, some good decisions, but he led the 264 00:14:12,179 --> 00:14:15,750 Tim Burrowes: investment in REA at a very early stage and got 265 00:14:15,750 --> 00:14:20,239 Tim Burrowes: an excellent deal. So that one deal in itself probably 266 00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:23,700 Tim Burrowes: puts in the shade all of the other mistakes he's made. 267 00:14:24,060 --> 00:14:25,550 Sean Aylmer: Fair enough. Tim, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 268 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:27,640 Tim Burrowes: Always a pleasure, Sean. 269 00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:30,830 Sean Aylmer: That was Tim Burrowes, owner of media and marketing industry 270 00:14:30,830 --> 00:14:33,989 Sean Aylmer: newsletter, Unmade. This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. 271 00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:36,140 Sean Aylmer: Join me every morning for the full Fear and Greed 272 00:14:36,140 --> 00:14:38,609 Sean Aylmer: podcast, with all the business news you need to know. 273 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,320 Sean Aylmer: I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.