WEBVTT - How Bondi is testing Australia’s national security

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. As

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<v Speaker 1>the country demands answers as to howard shooting at a

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<v Speaker 1>hunker gathering at Bondai that left fifteen people dead was

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<v Speaker 1>able to happen, new details about the alleged shooters have

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<v Speaker 1>come to light. Authorities say the attack was inspired by

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<v Speaker 1>Islamic State. The two government had recently traveled to the

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<v Speaker 1>Philippines for military style training. The surviving government now in custody,

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<v Speaker 1>had been known to Rasio since twenty nineteen. Despite those

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<v Speaker 1>apparent warnings, the attack went ahead. What followed raised serious

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<v Speaker 1>questions about the limits of Australia's canter terrorism systems and

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<v Speaker 1>the growing threat of lone Act to terrorism. Today, Chairing

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<v Speaker 1>Global Islamic Politics at Deacon University, Professor Greg Barton on

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<v Speaker 1>how a mass attack like this can still happen in

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<v Speaker 1>Australia even when intelligence agencies are on high alert. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 1>December eighteenth, Greg, thanks for joining me. Sunday's massacre was

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<v Speaker 1>very quickly designated a terror attack. When that happens, what

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<v Speaker 1>extra powers did that give authorities to investigate what happened?

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<v Speaker 2>It makes a tremendous difference in terms of freeing up resources,

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<v Speaker 2>not just freeing up but allocating resources. So in this

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<v Speaker 2>case it's New South Wales Police that's responding. They immediately

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<v Speaker 2>get help from colleagues from Australian Federal Police, they get

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<v Speaker 2>help from Victoria Police obviously, ASIER and other agencies. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a thing called the Joint counter Terrorism Team that kicks

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<v Speaker 2>into action once you've designated you're working on a counter

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<v Speaker 2>terrorism investigation. You can't just sort of risk being the

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<v Speaker 2>boy who cried wolf and say I want a terror

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<v Speaker 2>investigation every time you're facing difficulties that you've got to

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<v Speaker 2>have good reasons. But clearly the circumstances were compelling. You

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<v Speaker 2>had a hundred by the Sea event, clear targeting of

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<v Speaker 2>people at that event by two men firing not randomly

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<v Speaker 2>but delibery. That looks like politically motivated violence terrorism. So

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<v Speaker 2>that was a sense an easy call to make.

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<v Speaker 3>An act of evil any Semitism, terrorism that has struck

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<v Speaker 3>the heart.

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<v Speaker 2>Of our nation. If we go back to the stabbing

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<v Speaker 2>of the Syrian Orthodox archbishop some months ago, that also

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<v Speaker 2>fairly quickly was desitated a terrors of investigation. The sixteen

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<v Speaker 2>year old with a knife aim for the face of

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<v Speaker 2>the fifty three year old bishop. The mid sermon attack

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<v Speaker 2>ruled one of terror by New South Wales Police, but

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<v Speaker 2>it took some hours in the middle of early the

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<v Speaker 2>next morning to make that call because you have to

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<v Speaker 2>sort of be able to justify what you're doing.

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<v Speaker 1>We know that one of the gunment Navied Acram, was

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<v Speaker 1>known to Asia as far back as twenty nineteen. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you just explain what that really means, because Azio must

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<v Speaker 1>be aware of many more people that they consider actual threats.

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<v Speaker 2>Are not correct, that is right. That's one of the

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<v Speaker 2>problems they're dealing with, hundreds and hundreds of people who

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<v Speaker 2>have sometimes quite similar profiles. Story there. We now know

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<v Speaker 2>with Navid is that he was with a group called

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<v Speaker 2>Street Dakwa. Could come across as over zealous sort of fundamentalists.

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<v Speaker 4>Conversation putting Dalla doing the book continuing the book of

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<v Speaker 4>the work of the prophets. We need to put the

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<v Speaker 4>message that all those what and Muhammed's last miss and

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<v Speaker 4>joables Bice spread dollar way you can spread the message,

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<v Speaker 4>not on those one wherever you can.

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<v Speaker 2>But unfortunately there was a darker side to the Street

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<v Speaker 2>dut Wie group. It was not just telling people about

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<v Speaker 2>their religion that was actually associated with Islamic State and

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<v Speaker 2>jihadi extremism. He was also in a circle because in

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<v Speaker 2>Sydney at the time, everyone who was, you know, sort

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<v Speaker 2>of jihadi extremist position was friends in the same larger

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<v Speaker 2>social network. So there was a network that ran through

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<v Speaker 2>the Asala bookshop in Bankstown and was linked up with

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<v Speaker 2>the street dut Why guys and pretty much everyone in

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<v Speaker 2>New South Wales ran through that network. People from other

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<v Speaker 2>states would visit. They knew people in Melbourne and Brisbane.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was a pretty from the police point of view.

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<v Speaker 2>Once they started looking at it, they consider as a

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<v Speaker 2>peace So the police moved in an arrested a man

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<v Speaker 2>called Isaac Almatri on the grounds that he was leading

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<v Speaker 2>in Islamic State. So in the process of doing that

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<v Speaker 2>they discovered a number of associates people who had been

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<v Speaker 2>in that circle. They found Navid Akram. They went and

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<v Speaker 2>spoke with him, They spoke with his father. They kept

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<v Speaker 2>it up for some months. Their determination was that then

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<v Speaker 2>seventeen year old Navid you know, had fallen in with

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<v Speaker 2>the fundamentalist extremist group. They didn't see him breaking any laws,

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't see him likely to break any laws or

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<v Speaker 2>much less, you know, cause violence, And at a certain

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<v Speaker 2>point they said, okay, this is not a priority. He's

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<v Speaker 2>not somebody who's likely to be a problem, and they

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<v Speaker 2>moved on. That's understandable, I think, given as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>the number of people they're looking at hundreds of people

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<v Speaker 2>who come across the desk in a similar way. The

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<v Speaker 2>problem is it would appear they didn't go back the

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<v Speaker 2>following year or two years later, and subsequently over the

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<v Speaker 2>last six years to see how Navid was tracking, how

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<v Speaker 2>his family was, what had changed, had he moved to

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<v Speaker 2>away from that youthful sort of extremism. So when he

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<v Speaker 2>and his father booked, traveled to Manila and departed Sydney

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<v Speaker 2>on November one, if there had been any attention given

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<v Speaker 2>to Navid at that point, red flags would have been

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<v Speaker 2>up and they would have been questions asked. But that

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't happening. Sajid Akrum and Navid's father had his gun

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<v Speaker 2>license issued in twenty twenty three, so some years after

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<v Speaker 2>that initial encounter. Doesn't seem anyone then was concerned about

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<v Speaker 2>the previous ASIO investigation. So it's understandable how these things happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Partly it's siloed lack of information sharing with the gun

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<v Speaker 2>license perhaps, but I think it's also that a mistake

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<v Speaker 2>was made and not going back to check how Navid

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<v Speaker 2>was traveling and whether, in fact, what had begun as

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<v Speaker 2>youthful extremism was actually still there. In an ideal world,

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<v Speaker 2>ASIO and other agencies should have been back the following

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<v Speaker 2>year and the years of subsequent just to say Navid,

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<v Speaker 2>how are you doing. You're not trying to mess with

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<v Speaker 2>your life. I just want to know how you're traveling,

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<v Speaker 2>Speak with his family, speak with his work associates or whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>just to see whether anything was amiss that I suspect

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<v Speaker 2>the reason it wasn't done is they weren't allocated resources

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<v Speaker 2>for that sort of follow up work. They'll allocate a

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<v Speaker 2>resources the initial of investigation, allocated resources for incident response,

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<v Speaker 2>but not for the kind of maintenance and that's the

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<v Speaker 2>failure of the system.

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<v Speaker 1>How do AZIO and other authorities tract the threat post

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<v Speaker 1>by load actors.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very challenging because the way they track terrorism threats

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<v Speaker 2>is through intercepted communications. People in these extremist networks, whether

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<v Speaker 2>they're Islamic State or old Kaieda or whether they're far

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<v Speaker 2>right extremists have gone to ground. They don't telegraph their

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<v Speaker 2>plans in what they would hope with encrypted messaging. They

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<v Speaker 2>don't try and network, They don't try and say who's

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<v Speaker 2>got the precursors for the explosive device or assembling. They

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<v Speaker 2>know that the moment they start doing that, they're in trouble.

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<v Speaker 2>They'll get found out, so they fall back on an

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<v Speaker 2>old school system of face to face contacts, handwritten notes.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's the challenge with loan actor attackers, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>why aziohead Mike Bojes says that's what keeps us awake

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<v Speaker 2>at night. But what we do know is that a

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<v Speaker 2>generally can't help but tell somebody what they want to do.

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<v Speaker 2>This is called leakage, and people generally hear that and

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<v Speaker 2>say that's crazy talk and dismiss it. I think the

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<v Speaker 2>message for the public now is you hear somebody saying

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<v Speaker 2>something crazy, don't write it off. I think the other

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<v Speaker 2>thing we need to do is expect that there will

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<v Speaker 2>be loan actor attacks that we didn't see coming, and

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<v Speaker 2>to make sure we do it in terms of securing

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<v Speaker 2>public places as best we can. So we do this

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<v Speaker 2>when it comes to people using vehicles as weapons as

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<v Speaker 2>is like State was doing just eight years ago. Think

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<v Speaker 2>about the nice attack on bus still day evening the

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<v Speaker 2>lotter Umbolus attack in Barcelona using vans trucks as weapons.

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<v Speaker 2>Most of our toblic spaces now have bollards, planter boxes, barricades,

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<v Speaker 2>street art that diminishes that risk. What we haven't done

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<v Speaker 2>clearly well enough is have something like Hunter by the

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<v Speaker 2>Sea and a proper assessment of saying, well, if we

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<v Speaker 2>had gunman turn up, you know where would that go.

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<v Speaker 2>They go to the high vantage point. They try and

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<v Speaker 2>have a high spot, so take a shot of people. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a bit boog whichhold secure that we should have

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<v Speaker 2>uniform personnel, obvious security in place. We should have had

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<v Speaker 2>a trained marksman on duty with a long arm with

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<v Speaker 2>a sniper rifle able to respond if there was the

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<v Speaker 2>remote but real possibility of an active shooter incident. They

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have that prep in place, and I think there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lesson to be learned there. The police officer who

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<v Speaker 2>took down those two terrorists came up behind them with

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<v Speaker 2>a sidearm with a pistol. Now if he missed first time,

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<v Speaker 2>they're going to turn around when they hit the bang

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<v Speaker 2>take aim at him. A very brave thing to do.

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<v Speaker 2>But also it's not Hollywood. I mean, in the real life,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't ping people down from ten to twenty meters

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<v Speaker 2>away with a pistol. It's really hard. He did something remarkable,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was very risky. So you know, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>just knowing that the lone actors will attack, that's by

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<v Speaker 2>definition is hard. We need to prepare for when it

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<v Speaker 2>does happen. How do we.

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<v Speaker 1>Respond Coming up with one alleged governments still alive, authorities

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<v Speaker 1>get the rare chance to ask why, learned what to

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<v Speaker 1>watch for.

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<v Speaker 3>There has been reports in the news about how two

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<v Speaker 3>of famers traveling to the Philippines last month. I can

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<v Speaker 3>confirm that they did travel to the Philippines. The reasons

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<v Speaker 3>why they went to the Philipphones and the purpose of

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<v Speaker 3>that and where they went when they were there is

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<v Speaker 3>under investigation.

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<v Speaker 2>Greg.

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<v Speaker 1>As you said, it's been revealed that Navid Akram and

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<v Speaker 1>his father, Sergeant, traveled to the Philippines last mother for

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<v Speaker 1>military style training. As the ABC is also reporting, what

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<v Speaker 1>role does the Philippines play as a training ground for

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<v Speaker 1>gee artists? From around the world.

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<v Speaker 2>Well before Old Kaido, there were insurgent groups in the Moro,

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<v Speaker 2>the Bunks of Morow, the ethnic Moro, a Muslim minority

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<v Speaker 2>on the western side of the Noel and the southernmost

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<v Speaker 2>island of the Philippines and associated small islands on an

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<v Speaker 2>archipelago that run through to Malaysia to the west. They

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<v Speaker 2>were fighting on ethno nationalist grounds for reasons that are

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<v Speaker 2>sort of fairly familiar in terms of grievance that fuels insurgencies.

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<v Speaker 2>When al Qaeda emerged, they traveled to join al Qaeda

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<v Speaker 2>in Afghanistan when the Soviet army was there and they

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<v Speaker 2>were involved in training camps along with Indonesians and Malaysians

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<v Speaker 2>and others. Those training camps were moved out of Afghanistan

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<v Speaker 2>into Pakistan in the nineteen nineties, and then Pakistan closed

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<v Speaker 2>them down and pushed them out, and many of the

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<v Speaker 2>people in those camps went to a camp called Camp

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<v Speaker 2>Abubaka and Minddal. Eventually Camp Auberbuka was closed down as well,

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<v Speaker 2>and we thought that problem was largely dealt with. But

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<v Speaker 2>then when Islamic State fled up, groups like ABUSAIV group

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<v Speaker 2>that had been ill disciplined mainly engaged in kidnapping of

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<v Speaker 2>people as a business model, so a criminal activity. They

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<v Speaker 2>swore allegiance to Islamic State. It was dismissed as just

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<v Speaker 2>sort of brand building marketing. But in twenty seventeen there

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<v Speaker 2>was a siege that lasted seven months in the most

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<v Speaker 2>populous Muslim majority city in the Philippines, Marawi. The Philippine

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<v Speaker 2>military has bombarded parts of the city of Marawi and

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<v Speaker 2>deployed scores of soldiers as it seeks to push back

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<v Speaker 2>against militants from groups linked to Islamic Steep. The Philippine

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<v Speaker 2>authorities responded with force. Many Islamic State sympathizers were arrested

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<v Speaker 2>or killed. Many repented and said on the games up,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to do this anymore. But there are

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<v Speaker 2>those who went to ground, and so there's a significant

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<v Speaker 2>remnant Islamic State presence in western Mindanao. So what we

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<v Speaker 2>would assume is that when Sajid and Navid went to Davaial,

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<v Speaker 2>the capital city of Mindanao. They don't think they went

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<v Speaker 2>to Davao because they were looking for beaches. That's not

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<v Speaker 2>where you go for beaches. I think they went there

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<v Speaker 2>to make the final stages of preparation, face to face

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<v Speaker 2>with people who with whom they could talk without being detected,

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<v Speaker 2>because it was analog, old school face to face communication,

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<v Speaker 2>not digital.

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<v Speaker 1>Sajik Akron is dead, but Navid Akron is still alive

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<v Speaker 1>and little face charges. What type of charges would you

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<v Speaker 1>expect for this attack, Greed.

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<v Speaker 2>I think clearly terrorism charges. I think there's just no

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<v Speaker 2>ambiguity the fact that it was probably Navid, maybe it

0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.160
<v Speaker 2>was his father, were both together that made these Islamic

0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.920
<v Speaker 2>State banners. It's shades of the Linn Cafe siege that

0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.280
<v Speaker 2>occurred in the same day in twenty fourteen. There the

0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.640
<v Speaker 2>gunman wanted to get hold of an Inflamic State banner

0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:22.280
<v Speaker 2>because he wanted to signal that I'm not doing this

0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.319
<v Speaker 2>by I'm acting alone. We know that, but I want

0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:27.520
<v Speaker 2>to be seen as representing Islamic State. I want them

0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.080
<v Speaker 2>to recognize me. And sure enough, in their next magazine Debek,

0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.000
<v Speaker 2>they praised him and said, you know, he was a sheer,

0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.600
<v Speaker 2>a felthy raphedia they called him, but now he's a hero.

0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:39.719
<v Speaker 2>This is the same sort of a response that these

0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.600
<v Speaker 2>guys were looking for. So their motivation appears to be

0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:46.560
<v Speaker 2>political and specifically the extremism of Islamic state. I don't

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.600
<v Speaker 2>think there's any ambiguity there. The more important thing now, though,

0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.760
<v Speaker 2>is the conversations with Navid, getting him to open up

0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:56.040
<v Speaker 2>about the journey he's been on, to understand the timelines,

0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.120
<v Speaker 2>the people he's intersected with, what other threats there are,

0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.440
<v Speaker 2>what lessons we can You'd expect that he's not keen

0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.080
<v Speaker 2>on speaking, but he'll be in that situation where very

0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.320
<v Speaker 2>clever people will draw out his story, and people in

0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.240
<v Speaker 2>that situation often like to tell their story. They don't

0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:11.559
<v Speaker 2>want to help the police, but they also want to

0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.719
<v Speaker 2>tell their story. So let's see what comes out. I

0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.040
<v Speaker 2>think it's really important that he's alive and able to

0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.520
<v Speaker 2>tell that story because we need to understand what's going

0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.400
<v Speaker 2>on inside his head and with his father. How do

0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.920
<v Speaker 2>they get to the situation, Who was influencing them? What

0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.040
<v Speaker 2>were the warning signs in hindsight that we can use

0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:27.480
<v Speaker 2>to stop this happening in future?

0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.120
<v Speaker 1>What do you think we can learn from conversations that

0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.480
<v Speaker 1>authorities will be having with Navid? And what does history

0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.000
<v Speaker 1>tell us about ies actors in particular that have been

0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.880
<v Speaker 1>caught Do they have a history of actually opening up

0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.040
<v Speaker 1>and telling authorities why they have done what they've done.

0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, those that have been caught in Syria that were

0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.200
<v Speaker 2>part of the physical color of fate, you know, tend

0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.280
<v Speaker 2>to have stories about I was just a driver, I

0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.960
<v Speaker 2>wasn't a fighter. So those, you know, obviously in many

0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.840
<v Speaker 2>cases they're not being honest. It's not easy to get

0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.720
<v Speaker 2>them to speak, even if they are persuaded to be honest.

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's always difficult to know how much of

0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.160
<v Speaker 2>what they're saying they believe themselves. So it's a challenge.

0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.200
<v Speaker 2>But you know, on Australian soil, in the situations that

0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:12.120
<v Speaker 2>Navid is in, I think it's going to be easier

0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.040
<v Speaker 2>to over time piece together history in his timeline by

0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.120
<v Speaker 2>him revealing things that he doesn't think are critically important

0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:22.280
<v Speaker 2>that paint the biggest story. I think the information will

0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.200
<v Speaker 2>come out. I think partly because he will want to

0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 2>talk and try and justify what he's doing, but partly

0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.520
<v Speaker 2>because over time he will give information which is going

0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.440
<v Speaker 2>to be very helpful. He's not been arrested overseas, he's

0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.200
<v Speaker 2>not held in a foreign sort of detention center. This

0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.800
<v Speaker 2>is the best possible circumstances for understanding history and it's

0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.360
<v Speaker 2>important that we do understand his story because there'll be

0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.680
<v Speaker 2>other Navid's out there that we want to you know,

0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.160
<v Speaker 2>we want to engage with and try and deter from

0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.840
<v Speaker 2>this path and try and help. That's the best way

0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:54.200
<v Speaker 2>to prevent terrorism.

0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:56.120
<v Speaker 1>Greg, thank you so much for coming on the show

0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 1>and speaking to us.

0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:58.560
<v Speaker 2>It's been a pleasure. Thanks very much.

0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.040
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, the Prime Minister says the federal

0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.720
<v Speaker 1>government intends to throw all the resources necessary to combat

0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.880
<v Speaker 1>anti Semitism following the mass shooting at Bondo Beach. Anthony

0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.360
<v Speaker 1>Alberinezi says the government will undertake any legislative change needed

0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.320
<v Speaker 1>to find anti Semitism as the government works the Titan

0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:34.120
<v Speaker 1>gun laws. Despite resistance from the National Party and gun groups,

0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.440
<v Speaker 1>state and territory governments are considering clamping down on gun

0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.600
<v Speaker 1>licenses and banning non citizens from owning firearms. And response

0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.280
<v Speaker 1>to the massacre, a Victoria has recorded its highest number

0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.720
<v Speaker 1>of new cancer diagnoses since population wide reporting began in

0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:52.240
<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty two, according to figures in Cancer Council Victoria's

0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.400
<v Speaker 1>annual report. For the first time, the report examines the

0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:59.600
<v Speaker 1>link between cancer incidents and survival outcomes, amongst migro communities.

0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.640
<v Speaker 1>It finds several overseas born groups have higher rates of liver, stomach,

0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:08.640
<v Speaker 1>thyroid and pancreatic cancers, while prostate, boal and melanoma rates

0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.880
<v Speaker 1>are generally higher amongst Australian born Victorians. You've been listening

0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:14.800
<v Speaker 1>to seven Am. We'll be back tomorrow