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Speaker 1: I want you to meet a professor of law at

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Speaker 1: Adelaide University, doctor Joanna Howe, who for most of this

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Speaker 1: year has been battling the sixth complaint made against her

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Speaker 1: in relation to research on abortion, research that obviously comes

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Speaker 1: with its own issues on that topic. She has been

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Speaker 1: cleared by all investigations all six, but the final one

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Speaker 1: imposed a penalty the University of Adelaide requiring her to

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Speaker 1: do a course in research integrity to eliminate any biased researching.

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Speaker 1: And that is despite all the investigations all six clearing

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Speaker 1: her of any researching, including an investigation into evidence she'd

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Speaker 1: given on abortion which was provided to a South Australian

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Speaker 1: parliamentary committee. Four appeals to the university on this demand

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Speaker 1: that she undertake a course in research integrity failed fell

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Speaker 1: on death ears. So she took the Uni to the

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Speaker 1: Fair Work Commission and one hundred thousand dollars and six

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Speaker 1: months later she's won her case, as should have been

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Speaker 1: the case to begin with. Let's meet at doctor Joanna

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Speaker 1: how Good morning, Good morning. This must have been a

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Speaker 1: tortuous process to go through.

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Speaker 2: It has been. I'm not going to lie. I knew

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Speaker 2: that when I started researching on Australia's abortion laws two

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Speaker 2: years ago and started disseminating that research via Instagram and

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Speaker 2: Facebook so that I could reach a border audience. That

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Speaker 2: it was going to be controversial. I knew it would

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Speaker 2: be likely career suicide because I was going up against

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Speaker 2: the sort of the radical left orthodoxy and even the

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Speaker 2: orthodoxy of the Academy on abortion. So I knew that

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Speaker 2: I was sort of three quarters of the way through

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Speaker 2: a career at that stage of an associate professor in law.

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Speaker 2: I built up my scholarship looking at migration law and

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Speaker 2: the regulation of temporary migrants, and I knew I was

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Speaker 2: sort of, you know, it was like I was throwing

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Speaker 2: a bomb by opening up a new area of research.

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Speaker 2: And it has been the case that there's been an

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Speaker 2: avalanche of so I noticed in your intro you said

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Speaker 2: six complaints, but actually what's really happened is there's been

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Speaker 2: six investigations and an avalanche complaint that I've come through.

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Speaker 2: And what has really disappointed me about the way that

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Speaker 2: it's been handled is that instead of batting away the

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Speaker 2: complaints and telling people, you know, how is at the university,

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Speaker 2: which she's got a right to academic freedom, the idea

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Speaker 2: of a university is built on the contestation of ideas

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Speaker 2: and allowing scholars to robustly debate and disagree. Instead of

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Speaker 2: doing that, the university is chosen to investigate every complaint,

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Speaker 2: you know, and that's just put me under enormous scrutiny

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Speaker 2: and pressure. And while I've been cleared every single time,

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Speaker 2: it was the last investigation that was to store the

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Speaker 2: broke of Camel's backer. I just couldn't believe that I

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Speaker 2: could be found not guilty of any breach of the

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Speaker 2: Australian Code for Responsible Research. And then we still receive

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Speaker 2: a letter from the university saying they we're imposing corrective

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Speaker 2: actions and anti bias course and a performance chart with

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Speaker 2: my line manager. And at that point I just said,

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Speaker 2: enough is enough. I cannot do this. My conscience doesn't

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Speaker 2: allow me to do this, even if it would be

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Speaker 2: the easiest thing to do. To be there's duke, of course,

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Speaker 2: but you know anyway, but I just thought, no, this

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Speaker 2: is actually really important. Academic freedom is really important, not

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Speaker 2: just for scholars, but for students coming through the door.

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Speaker 2: They should feel free to contest the lecturer's opinion and

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Speaker 2: the orthodoxy of the academy on everything from gender to abortion.

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Speaker 2: They should be free to contest controversial ideas in the classroom,

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Speaker 2: and your scholars can't do it. You know, if professors

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Speaker 2: can't do it, then how can a student do it?

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Speaker 1: So contesting opinion that the phrase you just used there,

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Speaker 1: if I mean, it seems to be that opinions offend

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Speaker 1: and if you get offended these days, you seem to

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Speaker 1: have a right to I don't know what to something,

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Speaker 1: to complain about something and then have a course of

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Speaker 1: action follow. It shouldn't be that way, should it.

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Speaker 2: It absolutely shouldn't be that way. I completely agree there's

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Speaker 2: something more horse end than people's feelings, and that's actually

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Speaker 2: just the truth. You know, Like I think, at the moment,

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Speaker 2: we have preference feelings and being nice and above everything else,

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Speaker 2: above any other value. You know, you can see this.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to get off topic, mate, you can

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Speaker 2: see this. In the debate around women's sport in the Olympics,

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Speaker 2: there's been a legitimate debate about whether X Y athletes

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Speaker 2: should be allowed to participate in women's boxing because of

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Speaker 2: their chromosomal advantage that they have a being x Y,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of people are saying well, this is

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Speaker 2: not nice to amm Khalib, who you know ended up

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Speaker 2: taking the gold medal as an x y I think,

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Speaker 2: But the reality is that I've shared on my Instagram

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Speaker 2: and people can check it out if they want. Add

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Speaker 2: doctor Joanna, how we have to prioritize truth over nice

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Speaker 2: because you know, being nice to calif in this instant

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Speaker 2: allowing her to play, you know, and get that gold medal,

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Speaker 2: isn't nice to all the young girls and women out

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Speaker 2: there who have been training in boxing all their lives

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Speaker 2: and still don't get to get to the Olympics get

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Speaker 2: a gold medal because it's been taken by someone with

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Speaker 2: a male biological advantage. And so you know, in the

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Speaker 2: abortion debate, it's the same. We talk about being nice

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Speaker 2: and compassionate to the woman who's obviously gone through an

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Speaker 2: enormous amount in thinking about abortion, but it's still there's

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Speaker 2: still that fundamental truth that abortion kills a distinct, unrepeatable

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Speaker 2: human being. And you know, as a scholar, part of

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Speaker 2: my job is to contest ideas fearlessly and without favor.

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Speaker 2: Academic freedom is there to protect that, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I think for me, when the university said we haven't

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Speaker 2: doubt we haven't found that you've done anything wrong, but

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Speaker 2: we're going to make you do this course. You've been

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Speaker 2: a bad girl. And that was actually the letter that

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Speaker 2: they communicated to this TikTok activist who has put in

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Speaker 2: the complaints about me in the first place. They sent

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Speaker 2: her a letter saying we've imposed corrective actions on Professor Howe.

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Speaker 2: They never even said in a letter to her that

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Speaker 2: I had been cleared of the Australian of any breach

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Speaker 2: of Istrauning Code of Responsible Research. And then I received

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Speaker 2: a whole new online harassment and bullying and taunts from

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Speaker 2: people saying things that were just not true. People accusing

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Speaker 2: me of being found guilty of plagiarism, misrepresentation of facts,

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Speaker 2: people saying the union had ordered me to unpublish my research.

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Speaker 2: None of that was true, and the university had enabled

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Speaker 2: the bullies. And you know, I don't expect not to

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Speaker 2: get complaints, because that's going to happen as part of

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Speaker 2: the course when you're research in the controversial area. But

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Speaker 2: I do expect that the university system would be robust

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Speaker 2: enough to protect scholars from the controversy by not allowing

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Speaker 2: their own systems to be weaponized by the activists.

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Speaker 1: Where do now with all of this? Has the university

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Speaker 1: been ordered by the Fair Work Commission to change some

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Speaker 1: of that, to change its obligations to yes academics moving forward.

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Speaker 2: So what has happened is at conciliation at the Fair

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Speaker 2: Work Commissions we have managed to get the Universe oh sorry.

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Speaker 2: We've managed to get the university to agree to remove

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Speaker 2: the corrective actions and to not take this matter any further.

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Speaker 2: So they've been completely lifted. I've been completely cleared, and

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Speaker 2: we have agreed to a process going forward that I

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Speaker 2: believe will better protect my academic freedom. I am concerned

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Speaker 2: that although this is a victory for me, I want

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Speaker 2: to be a victory for the whole sector and the

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Speaker 2: scholars and students in the sector. So I have ridden

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Speaker 2: to Universities Australia, who is actually led by a save

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Speaker 2: Vice Chancellor, David Lloyd, and I've written to David Lloyd

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Speaker 2: and I've suggested a reform proposal based on my own experiences,

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Speaker 2: that would say that to protect academic freedom, you have

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Speaker 2: to create a roadblock for people who are making bad

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Speaker 2: faith and vex Faces complaints. You know, my sixth investigation

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Speaker 2: was launched off the back of a TikTok activist who

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Speaker 2: literally has a TikTok account producing daily content attacking me.

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Speaker 2: The university should never have taken a complaints from someone

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Speaker 2: with that kind of ideological opposition to what I'm saying. Further,

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Speaker 2: it should have just been battered away. But they didn't

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Speaker 2: do that. And so what I've written to Universities Australia

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Speaker 2: is a letter that says we have to have a

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Speaker 2: better system to manage people who research in areas controversy,

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Speaker 2: and that is to weed out bad faith and vexatious complaints.

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Speaker 2: And I've got criteria around that, and I've also said

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Speaker 2: that these complaints need to be made by peoplewithstanding if

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Speaker 2: we are going to take forward and investigation. So they

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Speaker 2: have to be someone that's credible and reputable. There can't

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Speaker 2: be some unhinged TikTok activist. They have to either have

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Speaker 2: been directly affected or someone with academic credibility.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you think they did that? Why did

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Speaker 1: they take the word of a TikTok activist as you

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Speaker 1: call them, why and not investigate it further? Not say well,

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Speaker 1: this person obviously has an agenda. Does the UNI have

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Speaker 1: an agenda?

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Speaker 2: Look has been wondering someone myself that I can't speak

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Speaker 2: to the people that were involved in this case. All

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Speaker 2: I know is that with this sixth investigation there was

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Speaker 2: a different labor The five that had happened previously had

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Speaker 2: been managed at the local level. I've been able to

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Speaker 2: speak to the decision maker explain why I make the

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Speaker 2: claims that I do on Instagram and Facebook and take jobs,

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Speaker 2: and that had been heard, and all of those five complaints,

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Speaker 2: oh sorry, five investigations were dismissed. The sixth one was

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Speaker 2: managed by a different department at the university. Senior management

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Speaker 2: was involved it. And what I found very difficult was

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Speaker 2: all the way through you mentioned I appealed four times.

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Speaker 2: I did. I wrote four separate letters explaining why this

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Speaker 2: was a breach of their own policies to take this forward.

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Speaker 2: I explained, you know why I made the claims I did,

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Speaker 2: and the rodbust approach I take to everything that I

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Speaker 2: do in my scholarship, and yet it just completely fell

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Speaker 2: on deaf years every single time, and it was gut wrenching, Matthew.

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Speaker 2: I'd writ these letters and then I'd receiver something two

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Speaker 2: weeks back saying no, we're still going to impose the

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Speaker 2: corrective actions, and they wouldn't give any reasons, and that

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Speaker 2: you've got thirty days to do it. At the thirty

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Speaker 2: days past, I knew I wasn't going to do it,

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Speaker 2: and at that point I knew I had to bring

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Speaker 2: the lawyers in. The lawyers wrote a letter on my

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Speaker 2: behalf massive and I felt, surely the university will realize

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Speaker 2: the error of their ways there, but they still shouldn't.

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Speaker 2: So we then had to go to the Fair Work Commission,

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Speaker 2: which finally, I think bringing in the commissioner did help

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Speaker 2: resolve the dispute, but it shouldn't have. It shouldn't have

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Speaker 2: cost one hundred thousand dollars, it shouldn't have taken six months.

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Speaker 2: This is why people are so afraid of speaking out

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Speaker 2: against the dominant orthodoxy, because this is what can happen

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Speaker 2: to them. It's the process that's the punishment.

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Speaker 3: Where does your bravery come from, Joeanne, I don't consider

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Speaker 3: myself was a particularly grave person, but I think I'm

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Speaker 3: now at a point in my life where I am

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Speaker 3: a professor.

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Speaker 2: I'm forty one years old, I live in a state

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Speaker 2: that legalized abortion up to birth in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: and I just as a mother. I just couldn't believe

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Speaker 2: I lived in a state where a child in utero

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Speaker 2: has no right nine months of pregnancy.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: I just thought that that's not something I can stay

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Speaker 2: silent about, and so I have posted daily content to

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Speaker 2: social media sharing my research as a way of just

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Speaker 2: raising community awareness. I don't feel courageous, but I just

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Speaker 2: see a grave in justice and I feel like I

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Speaker 2: have to speak into it.

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Speaker 1: You've got a petition going at the moment to try

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Speaker 1: and reverse late term abortions in essay as well, how's

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Speaker 1: that going?

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Speaker 2: I do? And it's already got over twenty one thousand signatures,

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Speaker 2: so there's a real ground flow of community support for it. Essentially,

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Speaker 2: what that permission, sorry, what that petition says is that

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Speaker 2: it's that if a baby is healthy and they're viable,

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Speaker 2: so they're post twenty three weeks, that we should be

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Speaker 2: birthing these babies alive. We should not be killing them

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Speaker 2: first and delivering them still born. So it's the Justice

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Speaker 2: for the eight petition. If people want to find it,

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Speaker 2: they can go to dr Joanna Hoow dot com forward

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Speaker 2: slash Justice for the eight eighty in a number. You

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Speaker 2: can also go to my Instagram at doctor Joanna Howe

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Speaker 2: or Facebook. Essentially, what I'm fighting for is that we

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Speaker 2: changed this law so that so that you know, if

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Speaker 2: a baby is healthy and they could leave, we do

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Speaker 2: everything we can to make sure that we birth them

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Speaker 2: alive because at the moment those children have no rights.

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Speaker 2: And the previous Attorney General, Vicky Chapman, she stood up

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Speaker 2: for the Parliament and when asked by David Spears, you know,

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Speaker 2: could your law kill a healthy baby if the mother

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Speaker 2: has a mental health issue? Could it kill a healthy

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Speaker 2: baby right up antil birth? And she stood up and

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Speaker 2: said no. But the first six months of data is

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Speaker 2: in an eight healthy Bibles. So post twenty three week

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Speaker 2: old babies have been killed in non emergency situations. They've

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Speaker 2: just been killed in hetero delivered stillborn. This is a

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Speaker 2: grave injustice. It's only it's not only going to increase.

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Speaker 2: I'm just asking people to get behind in that position

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Speaker 2: the justice for the eight petitions so that we can

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Speaker 2: stop this now.

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Speaker 1: And Joanna, I really appreciate your time this morning, thank

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Speaker 1: you for coming on. And you're still with the UNI

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Speaker 1: presumable this is all resolved now moving.

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Speaker 2: Forward, it is resolved and obviously it's nerve wracking to

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Speaker 2: think of, you know, having done this case and to

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Speaker 2: still be with the UNI. But I really I've loved

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Speaker 2: being at the University of Adelaide over the last fourteen

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Speaker 2: years and I love being an academic and all I

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Speaker 2: want is the freedom to be able to teach and

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Speaker 2: research without you know, being under an extra microscope because

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Speaker 2: of the controversial nature what I do. So you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm back at work, back in the classroom and looking

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Speaker 2: forward to another fourteen years of hope.

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Speaker 1: Excellent. Thank you for your trying, best of luck with it.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Matthew.

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Speaker 1: Bye. Doctor Joanna how Professor of Law Uni of Adelaide,

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Speaker 1: who for the last six months, well this year, really

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Speaker 1: has been battling the sixth investigation against her into research

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Speaker 1: on abortion, and as you heard that that is research

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Speaker 1: that comes with its own issues and obviously a lot

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Speaker 1: of opposition to it from different sectors. But you can

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Speaker 1: make your own minds up about that. I'm sure you've

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Speaker 1: got a view. But in terms of academic freedom, I

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Speaker 1: think she's absolutely right. Unis traditionally have been the place

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Speaker 1: where you express an idea of view and it becomes

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Speaker 1: contested and anyway she's taken her point of view to

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Speaker 1: the Fair Work Commission, which found in her favor favor,

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Speaker 1: and that is the end of it.