1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: It's Thursday, January one, twenty twenty six. Every so often 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: a literally scandal blows up, and this one was especially delicious. 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: Two beloved Australian cookbook authors embroiled in a public dispute 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: about who owns they're very similar recipes for dessert favorites, 6 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: chocolate caramel slice and Bucklovar. Nagi Mayhashi versus Brooke Bellamy 7 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: had everything a generation gap, passionate supporters on either side, 8 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: home cook sleuths rushing to the kitchen for some test 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: baking and a conversation about big ideas like the worth 10 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: of women's work and the concept of courtesy. One of 11 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: the Australian's most esteemed journalists, Fiona Hairari, is also a 12 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: passionate home cook, with a pretty famous recipe for brownies 13 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: and some firm opinions about this big blow up. Fiona, 14 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: only you would come to an interview about food with 15 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: research and highlighted documents. What is all this? 16 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: Food is very serious to me? 17 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 3: I often say to people, and I'm serious about this too, 18 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 3: that I liked food before it was even popular. 19 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 2: I like food like it's my thing. 20 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 3: So this has been I'm really sorry for the people involved, 21 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 3: but for the rest of us, it has been. In 22 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 3: a year of really difficult news, the closest thing we've 23 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 3: come to light relief. 24 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: I have to say I agree. Even while the mushroom 25 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: trial was raging and the entire country was totally captivated 26 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: by that, you stayed true to being captivated by this issue. 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: This is about Nagi Mahashi, Australia's favorite home cook, accusing 28 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: a Brisbane chef who goes by the name Brookie of 29 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: Brookie's Bakehouse of plagiarizing two of her recipes. Now we 30 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: need to be clear from the beginning that Brooke Bellamy 31 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: has denied plagiarizing Naguie Mahashi's work and says that recipes 32 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: like caramel Slice and Bucklova are very common. It's natural 33 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: for there to be similarities between two different kinds of recipes. 34 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: Take us back to when that scandal broke. What did 35 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: you first hear about it and what was your reaction. 36 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 3: I saw a small news item in which Nagi was 37 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 3: reported to have accused brook of copying her recipes. I 38 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 3: think is probably the best way of putting it, and 39 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 3: I thought, oh, that's interesting. You know, I grew up 40 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: where people would swap recipes around a lot, but often 41 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 3: they'd leave out an ingredient, you know, so there was 42 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 3: always that. But I thought, that's really interesting. This is 43 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 3: not something you hear about very often. And so I 44 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 3: then went on to the recipe tim EAT's website, which 45 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 3: I really hadn't looked at very much until then. I'd 46 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 3: heard about it, but I think I've gone beyond the 47 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 3: point of trying to find new recipes. 48 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 4: Watch how easy it is to make these incredible crispy 49 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 4: tie brook bites and sticky, limey sweet chili sauce. You 50 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 4: will never catch me turning salmon bites one by one 51 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 4: on the stove. 52 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: And I don't own an air friar. 53 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 4: I know, controversial, you guys, Look at this. 54 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: This is one of the best cakes I've made all year. 55 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 3: And there was quite a long post there, and I 56 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: noticed that comments have since been turned off, But there 57 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 3: was a really long post in which Nagi took the 58 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 3: two recipes Hers and Brookies, one for caramel slice and 59 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 3: one for black blah blah, and laid them out in 60 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 3: terms of ingredients, and then the instructions it followed, and 61 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 3: there are really when you look at it, even now 62 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 3: as we both are, there are seemed to be some 63 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 3: quite striking similarities. And I thought, well, I was quite interested, 64 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 3: how similar are these recipes because we know that aramal 65 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 3: slice has a lot fewer ingredients than say, abu klava. 66 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 3: So I've just gone through again and pulled out some 67 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:11,119 Speaker 3: recipes for caramel slice, and there are quite a lot 68 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 3: of similarities between the two recipes compared to many others. 69 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I pulled up Donna Hayes' chocolate caramel slice. 70 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 3: For example, she puts in spelt flower Now, even if 71 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 3: you don't use spelt flour, she puts one hundred and 72 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 3: forty grams of spelt flour. These two other recipes both 73 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 3: have one hundred and fifty grams. She puts in forty 74 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: grams of desiccated coconut. They both put in forty five 75 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 3: grams of desiccated coconut. 76 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 2: So there are not that many ingredients. 77 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 3: But there seem to be a lot more similarities between 78 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: these two than any others that I could see in 79 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 3: the little flick through the internet that I did. 80 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: The other similarity that I noticed, and that argument, how 81 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: she was pointing out, was in the formatting and the 82 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: wording of the instruction. So it's not just about the 83 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: quantities and the method, it's about the way the paragraphs 84 00:04:59,400 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: are formed. 85 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 3: Yes, and also in terms of strips, the strips of 86 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 3: Filo pastry for the backlaba, for example. It's really hard 87 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: to know where a recipe began, but I think we 88 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 3: can mostly accept that there is a tradition that we 89 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 3: don't know where any recipe began originally, but you do 90 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 3: acknowledge where you have received it from someone else. 91 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: I guess to publish a cookbook, it's unlike any other 92 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: kind of book, And of course you've written several books yourself, 93 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: you need to have a volume of recipes. I mean, 94 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: I've got five recipes of my own that I love 95 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: that I make all the time, that I know off 96 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: by heart, and that I've adapted. But it's certainly not 97 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: enough to fill a cookbook. Someone like Brook comes along 98 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: into the food world. She's a bit of an outsider. 99 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: She started a bakery and it's become viral on social media. 100 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: I have launched hundreds of new cookie flavors, but when 101 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: I tell you, this cookie is far superior to any 102 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: other cookie. I really mean it. I'm going to start 103 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: by using a white chocolate doughbase and then add a 104 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: generous amount of chopped pistachios. But I think it seems 105 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: to me as though she wants to be in the 106 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: main game of people who are acknowledged as influential Australian cooks. 107 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: She wants her book on people shelves, and it's also 108 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: another source of revenue. She needs a lot of recipes 109 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 1: for that, and so one of the possibilities here was 110 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: that she was familiar with Nagi's recipe, that they'd both 111 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: been influenced, perhaps by the same source, and that it's 112 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: just coincidental. Do you think that's possible. 113 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 4: Oh? 114 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think it's possible. 115 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 3: It's also possible that she forgot to acknowledge something if 116 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 3: indeed she did borrow from someone else. And I don't 117 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,119 Speaker 3: think anyone says there is anything wrong in borrowing someone 118 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 3: else's recipe. In fact, I think many people would think 119 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 3: it's a great compliment to use their recipe. I know, 120 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: if someone makes something that I've passed on to them 121 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 3: that was not my original recipe, but they may call it. 122 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: I think I've said to you before. 123 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 3: There's a five minute brownie recipe that I've been making 124 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 3: for years. People I know that I've given it to 125 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 3: call it Fiona's Brownie's. I don't know anymore where I 126 00:06:57,839 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 3: got that recipe from, but I take it as a 127 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 3: great compliment that they associate that with me, because I 128 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 3: gave them a recipe that I took from somewhere else. 129 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 3: That gives them a lot of joy. Who knows where 130 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 3: anyone gets an idea from. I think a lot of 131 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 3: cooking is about getting inspired, and if you have to 132 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: do cooking every night at home, or if you have 133 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 3: to do enough cooking to fill up a book, you 134 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 3: will find information wherever you can, for whatever reasons you 135 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 3: might have to find it. And it's possible that you 136 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 3: forget sometimes where you found something. I think, though, the 137 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 3: underlying rule for me is that if I was writing 138 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 3: a recipe book, I think if I was passing on 139 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 3: a recipe, I would just acknowledge where I got it 140 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 3: from if I could remember it all. 141 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: I've noticed so many acknowledgments in other cookbooks since this 142 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: scandal blew up, and it did become the biggest thing 143 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: in Australian literary drama. Since Helen Demenden goes in vitry 144 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: for aud Nigella Laws is constantly acknowledging other chefs who've 145 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: given her recipes. Yourte Ottolini does the same thing. They'll 146 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: also acknowledge people who work for them or with them, 147 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: who have contributed valuable parts to a recipe. There's a 148 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: very rich tradition in cooking publishing, isn't there of acknowledgment? 149 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: I agree. 150 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 3: I saw on just a few minutes ago, I saw 151 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 3: online I downloaded, for example, a recipe from a woman 152 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 3: called Bonnie Joe Manion. I have no idea who she is, 153 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 3: but she has a recipe for autumn morning glory muffins. Now, 154 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 3: I was doing this for research purposes. I was not 155 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 3: researching dinner at work. But Bonnie Joe Manions recipe for 156 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 3: autumn morning glory muffins says that she obtained this recipe 157 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: from let me have a look here, I think it 158 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 3: was the Victoria magazine. So she says, this is from 159 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 3: my recently saved from the October twenty eighteen edition of 160 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 3: Victoria Magazine. She also references the American cook Ininer Gartan, 161 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: who almost also makes mourning glory muffins and whose recipe 162 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 3: was in turn inspired by the muffins made at the 163 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 3: Mooring Glory Cafe on Nantucket. So within run recipe there 164 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 3: are basically three levels of acknowledgment. That might be a 165 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: bit of an overkill, but it's clear that this woman 166 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 3: has been inspired by one recipe but also has picked 167 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 3: up inspiration from other people who have in turn picked 168 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: up inspiration from someone else. It can be a bit ridiculous, 169 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 3: but I think the message is acknowledged as often as 170 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 3: you can and really try not to forget. 171 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: Have you ever had the experience of feeling as though 172 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: your work has been stolen or plagiarized, or that someone's 173 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: been influenced by your work without an acknowledgment. 174 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 3: Yes, so there is a publication and I won't name 175 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 3: this publication, but I was so incensed. Look, there was 176 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 3: a long tradition back in the probably late eighties early 177 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 3: nineties where other papers would often riff off your story. 178 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 3: We didn't have the Internet to check up as easily 179 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 3: in those days, but in the last few years had 180 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 3: occasion where a story of mine was basically republished and 181 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 3: the only acknowledgment was oh as reported by the Australian, 182 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 3: and I was so incensed that I tried to ring 183 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 3: the journalists who write this story. And ironically, this media 184 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 3: organization does not have phone numbers for its journalists and 185 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 3: there was no way that I could call this journalist. 186 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 3: But I think I did send an email saying this 187 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 3: is really not the way to behave you know, by 188 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 3: all means rewrite something, but don't republish my story and 189 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 3: think it's okay just to say, as reported by The Australian. 190 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: There's a whole economy of theft in journalism, of course, 191 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: and they call it aggregation. That's one of the nice 192 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: phrases that they use. There are entire mastheads that are 193 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: built on rewriting very lightly journalism that, for example, re published. 194 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: This is what the Daily Mail does quite unashamedly. They 195 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: have some reporters who are working on original journalism for 196 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: their Daily Mail Australia site. But there is also a 197 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: lot of rewriting and they'll do a token acknowledgment, sometimes 198 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: with a hyperlink back to the original story. But it 199 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: is enraging, and it's enraging that it's a business model. 200 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: I agree, But and in fact, if you just tweaked 201 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 3: it a little. You could and should change the whole 202 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 3: tone of it. If someone has written a really great story, 203 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 3: in the same way as someone has written a great recipe, 204 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 3: by all means, reproduce it, rewrite it however you like, 205 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 3: and acknowledge where it's come from, because in that case 206 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 3: you are not stealing or taking something from someone. You 207 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 3: are basically acknowledging the good work they've done and. 208 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: Spreading the word. And I think that's a great thing 209 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 2: to do. 210 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: I think many journalists would agree that was good, and 211 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 3: I think many recipe writers would probably agree that was 212 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 3: good as well. 213 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: One of the great mysteries about plagiarism, and I've worked 214 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: in proximity to a couple of people who have ultimately 215 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: lost their jobs because they were caught plagiarizing other people's work, 216 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: is that it seems like a lot more effort than 217 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: just doing the journalism yourself. You know, journalism is not 218 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: rocket science. It's about going and talking to people and 219 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: writing down what they say, analyzing and interpreting what they say. 220 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: Doing that is grant work, and it's hard, and you 221 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: can apply all sorts of you know, love and care 222 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: to it all not so much at all, but going 223 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: and cribbing other people's work, cutting and pasting, and then 224 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: having to cover your tracks and worry that you might 225 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: get caught seems like a lot more if it than 226 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:19,839 Speaker 1: it's worth. 227 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: Also, it's boring. 228 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 3: I mean, why be a journalist if you just want 229 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 3: to you know, if you're there presumably for the journalism, 230 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 3: not the journalism with ach. You know, most of us 231 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 3: are here because we're generally interested in what's going on 232 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 3: in the world. In the same way as you might 233 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 3: pursue a recipe because you want to have something terrific 234 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 3: for dinner, you want to get the best out of 235 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 3: something or someone. And why you would reproduce someone else's 236 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 3: words when you could have another angle speak to that 237 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 3: person yourself has never been quite clear to me. 238 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: What have been the consequences of this scandal for both 239 00:12:58,480 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: Nagi and Rookie Well. 240 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: Interesting, I considering how much noise there was when this 241 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 3: story came out a few months ago. I hadn't heard 242 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 3: much for a while, and I had a bit of 243 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 3: a look around in the last few days. The latest 244 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 3: news on Nagi's that she's got a lovely new kitchen, 245 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 3: which is congratulations, hope it's great and that's great for her, 246 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 3: And I read that Brooke has just secured something like 247 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 3: twenty five million dollars in funding from someone in Saudi 248 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 3: Arabia and someone else with connections to one of the emirates, 249 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 3: and looks set to open another one hundred stores, So 250 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 3: good luck to her. It sounds like, from what I 251 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: can see, there might have been some emotional costs for 252 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 3: both of them, but at the end of the year, 253 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 3: it sounds like things are pretty okay for both of them. 254 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: They're both vastly successful business women in their own right. 255 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: Nagi is absolutely beloved, as evidenced by the comments on 256 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: that original post. They were one hundred percent in support 257 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: of her, weren't they? 258 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely? 259 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,599 Speaker 3: And my view from the beginning was it's this was 260 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 3: not a question about how much you like someone. 261 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: It's a question about what is right. 262 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 3: And as I have said from the outset, I think 263 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: you just need to acknowledge if you've got a recipe 264 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: from someone and you are publishing it, that you have 265 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: got that recipe from someone else. And I would hope 266 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 3: that I would do the same thing if I was 267 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 3: in that situation. 268 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: Coming up. So who won this bake off? I made 269 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: Brookies two cakes for two recent children's birthdays by Brookie. 270 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: I made her fluffy chocolate cake, which was fantastic, and 271 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: then I made a you know. I think it was 272 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: called the Ultimate Birthday cake, which was a disaster because 273 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: she said that it needed twenty five minutes in the oven. 274 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: I took it out after twenty five minutes and it 275 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: was still liquid. 276 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 2: Twenty five minutes never seems like enough time. 277 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: And it wasn't It needed more like fifty minutes. One 278 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: of the things about this drama is that it was 279 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: dismissed as a little bit of frivolity and a little 280 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: bit of fun. But for a start, this is about 281 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: very serious work by women that's often consumed by women, 282 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: So I think that's part of the reason why it 283 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: was dismissed. But also, when you're making a recipe, you've 284 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: gone out and spent quite a lot of money on 285 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: the ingredients, and it's for a birthday, for example, or 286 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: an important dinner, or you were just cooking for your 287 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: family and everyone's hungry. It does matter. 288 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: None of this is trivial. 289 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: The two women who were involved in this case have 290 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 3: both you know and great accolades to both of them 291 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 3: have both incredibly successful in what they do, so they 292 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 3: both have built big businesses up around them, which is terrific. 293 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 3: It's about courtesy, and I think people can also dismiss 294 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: that too easily in life. If it comes down to 295 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 3: acknowledging someone, we all need to be courteous as much 296 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 3: as possible. It's something that we're losing sight of these days. 297 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 3: There is a bit of fun to this story, but 298 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: I think it's I have to say I was surprised 299 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 3: from my reading of it to learn that there is 300 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 3: no such thing as sort of copyright over recipes. That 301 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 3: there aren't, as I understand, laws to protect you from 302 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: having exclusive use of a recipe. So providence is a 303 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 3: really interesting question. So maybe at the end of the day, 304 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 3: that's what it does come down to, is just basic 305 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 3: old fashioned courtesy. So hopefully, after what has been quite 306 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 3: a difficult year for many people, people could perhaps make 307 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 3: some bucklava, make some caramel slices, add some sweetness to 308 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 3: your life, and hopefully twenty twenty six will be sweet 309 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 3: for all of us. 310 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to be making Fiona's brownie is I. 311 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: Hope five minutes they're worth it. 312 00:16:47,600 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for Janna Pleasure Fiona Hirari is a senior writer 313 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: with The Australian. She's one of our most soulful, smart 314 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: and razor sharp reporters. You can check out her journalism 315 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 1: anytime at the Australian dot com. A happy new year 316 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: from all of us at the Front, and we look 317 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: forward to bringing you another great year of news analysis, 318 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: laughs and tears as we bring you inside our newsrooms 319 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: and out on our reporting assignments. To make sure you 320 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: never miss an episode, Follow the Front wherever you listen