1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:02,679 Speaker 1: Good a Team. It's Harps and Melissa. Just a little 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: pre intro intro. I'm not sure what you would call 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: that a printro. I'm not sure. Fuck it. So I 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: did a conversation very recently with the fabulous Sabrina. It 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: turned out to be quite long, so, as we often do, 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: we chopped it into So this is part one of 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: a two part conversation. Honestly, one of my favorite chats 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: of the last year with somebody who is smart and 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: all of that, accomplished, successful, all of that, but for me, 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: one of the most inspirational people that I've spoken to 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: in a long time. Anyway, this is part one of Sabrina. 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,319 Speaker 1: Enjoy the shit out of it. Good a Team, your 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: bloody champions you. It's typ of course, it is the 14 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: You project. It's Lates, it's Late's Melissa and I. It's 15 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: six minutes past nine and I turned into a pumpkin 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: at about nine point thirty Melissa, as you well know, 17 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: because I get up at five o'clock because you know, 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm a high energy unit. And then we stuffed Sabrina 19 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: around and anyway, we'll get to Sabrina in a moment. 20 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: But it's a long day. So I have here. Now 21 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: I shouldn't say this because it'll ruin my already shonky credibility. 22 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: I've diet coke in this one, and I have tea 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: in this one. So I have hot and cold caffeine 24 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: just ready to frontal cortex working like a bloody champion. Melissa, 25 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: how's your day? 26 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: Ben? Very good? Thank you very good. It's hard to 27 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: believe that it's the week of Christmas, but no, very good. 28 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: How about you are good? 29 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: And before anyone sends me an email saying, oh, I 30 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: can't believe you drink die coke, don't fucking bother. 31 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: I don't care. 32 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: I don't have it that often, but every now and then, 33 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: when you got to interview someone super super smart from 34 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: the other side of the world, you need all your 35 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: neurons firing. Now. I normally don't read bios because they're 36 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: kind of boring and it's not great listening, I think, 37 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: But Sabrina's is so bloody amazing. I'm going to read it. 38 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: So batt and down the hatches. Get a cup to everyone, 39 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: Sit in your bean bag, put on your slippers, because 40 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: this is not brief. Doctor Sabrina Cohen Hatton is one 41 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: of the few women who have served at the top 42 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: of the fire service. She combines her role as one 43 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: of the most senior female firefighters in the UK with 44 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: work as a research fellow at Cardiff University, where she 45 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: specializes in behavioral neuroscience, in particular how humans make decisions 46 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: under pressure. She's been appointed as the National Fire Chiefs 47 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: Council International Lead, which will be carried out alongside her 48 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: position of Fire Chief Officer in West Sussex. She also 49 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: is the author of the Heat of the Moment of 50 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: Fighters Stories of life and death Decisions Could I be 51 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: reading this any worse? Showing resilience and determination from a 52 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: young age, Sabrina was homeless on the streets of South 53 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: Wales when she was fifteen. After two years on the 54 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: streets selling the Big issues, she was able to secure 55 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: accommodation and at eighteen joined the Fire Service. While working 56 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: as a firefighter, she also studied at Open University, the 57 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: Open University and then at Cardiff University, completing her PhD 58 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: Because You're straight Up Smarty Pants in psychology. In the 59 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: Fire Service, Sabrina became one of his highest ranking female 60 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: women officers. She climbed the ranks, serving in some of 61 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: the largest fibrigades in the country while maintaining her academic 62 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: work with Cardiff University. Her subsequent research into high pressure 63 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: decision making in the emergency services not only one awards 64 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: but also influenced policy at a global level. So you're 65 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: essentially an underachiever, Sabrina, I've been sitting on your ass 66 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: for twenty years doing not much. 67 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: I know it's prothetic. 68 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: I apologize, Yeah, try a bit harder, were you? 69 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: He was really good to see you guys. Thank you 70 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: for having me on the show. 71 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: Well, thank you for being part of it. We really appreciate, 72 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: you know, all stupidness aside. That's amazing. Congratulations. Do you 73 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: when you hear people talking about you? What's the feeling? 74 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: What's there when when some bloke that you've never met 75 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: on the other side of the world is telling twenty 76 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,839 Speaker 1: thousand people all about you and it's all this incredible shit, 77 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: which is, by the way, only a part of it. 78 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: There's a lot more. Does How do you feel when 79 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: you hear that? 80 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 2: It still feels really surreal. Actually, if I'm honest with you, 81 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: when I look back to where it all started, you know, 82 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: there were some really, really tough times and I think 83 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: everything that I've chosen to do over the course of 84 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: my both personally and professionally, actually none of it has 85 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: been easy at all. It's all come with challenges and 86 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 2: barriers and stuff thrown at you that you didn't expect 87 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: and you didn't want to have. But for me, it's 88 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: just that everyday reminder to keep on going because life 89 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: is tough and you can't choose what happens to you. 90 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: You can't even choose how you feel about it, frankly, 91 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: but you do have agency over is what you choose 92 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: to do about it next. And that's kind of been 93 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 2: my philosophy through everything from homelessness to challenges of working 94 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: in the fire department, to the challenges of doing trying 95 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: to do a PhD while you're still working and then 96 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: combining research. You know, it takes a lot of time 97 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 2: and effort and energy and it's not easy. It's really 98 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 2: not easy, But it's just that everyday reminder to keep going. 99 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: Do you think that, like when I listen to you 100 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: talk about all the stuff that you've done and continue 101 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: to do, and do you think that the drive that 102 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: you have is just innate? Is that just is that 103 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: in your DNA, Or is that that's option one? Option two? 104 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: Is it a byproduct of where you've been and what 105 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: you've seen and what you've been through the stuff that 106 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: you've endured and navigated. Or option three is it a 107 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: bit of everything? 108 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: Option C? I think certainly. I think that everybody has 109 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: as a predisposition towards certain qualities. But whether or not 110 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 2: that ever gets extrapolated into the real world is completely 111 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 2: dependent on the things that you're exposed to and the 112 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: way that you respond to those things as well. So 113 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: I'll give you I'll share with you a story, which 114 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: is why I think some of it is there is 115 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 2: an element to it. My grandparents, my grandmother in particular. Oh, 116 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,239 Speaker 2: I think they're awesome people. My grandparents were Moroccan Jews, 117 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 2: and they were attacked during a pogrom in Gerda in 118 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: Morocco where they lived in nineteen forty eight, and my 119 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: grandmother survived a machetti attack. She was attacked and left 120 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: for dead, and when my grandfather went to collect her body, 121 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 2: he had to pull her out from a pile of 122 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: other corpses unfortunately, and she gasped for air. She was 123 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 2: still alive, and so they fled Morocco as refugees and 124 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 2: they started again. Now, despite this experience, my father was 125 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 2: terminally ill and so my grandmother lived with us for 126 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 2: a while to care for him. And despite those experiences, 127 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 2: what I see from her every day is this kind 128 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: of tenacity to keep up and keep on going, and 129 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: this kind of really realistic optimism that everything will be okay. 130 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: It'll be tough, but it will be okay, and such 131 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 2: compassion and empathy and love that still comes from her 132 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: that I look at her and I think, you know what, 133 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: the world could throw anything at you, and I know 134 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: that you'd turn it into something good. So I think 135 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: there is that kind of that element that comes through 136 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: not just from from genetically potentially, but also I think 137 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: from those experiences that you have. There's things that you 138 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: learn from other people around you which then inform the 139 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 2: way that you respond to the environment around you too. 140 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 2: I lost my father when I was super young. I 141 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: was nine years old, and the thing that that taught 142 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: me is that security isn't guaranteed. Are not safe. It's 143 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 2: that fire under your feet that tells you that you 144 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: know things can happen in life that you don't expect 145 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: that are really difficult, that it's not always going to 146 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 2: be as you might imagine or you might plan, and 147 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: you have to be able to be reactive to that 148 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: and responsive to that. And boy, did that ever happen 149 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: when when I was younger. That was a super super 150 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 2: tough time. But that realization that the future isn't guaranteed, 151 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: that for me is one of the biggest drivers for 152 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: making it what you want. And it's tiring, you know, 153 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: it can get exhausting when you choose to do tough things. 154 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: But you know what, that's the only way we shift 155 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: the dial is by being brave enough to do those 156 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: tough things and being okay with knowing you might fail 157 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: at it, but that's okay because you can get up 158 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 2: and do it again. You know. 159 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: That's a big I think that's I love that amazing story. 160 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: As your grandma is still alive. 161 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 2: She is, she's going to be one hundred in February. 162 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: Oh God, bless her, God bless her she is. That's amazing. 163 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: But it's that, you know, it's that willingness to do 164 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: all the hard things. You know, like from you, we'll 165 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: get a bit more of your background, but from living 166 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: on the street when you're fifteen too. Here you are doing, 167 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: you know, talking to us whatever it is twenty two three, 168 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: four years later on an international podcast. Not that we're 169 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: a big deal, but I mean talking to people on 170 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: the other side of the world about your story and 171 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: about your journey and about your grandma and about your 172 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: history and about that like it. But you are where 173 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,119 Speaker 1: you are as the author, as the academic, as the researcher, 174 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: as the doctor, as the spokesperson, as this you know, 175 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: superachiever within the fire brigade, you know, just because not 176 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: because anyone handed it to you or said here's the key, 177 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: or not because the opportunity knocked at your door, but 178 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 1: because you just, for whatever reason were resilient and ambitious 179 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: and driven and had a big worth work ethic and 180 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: fell down and got up a thousand times. Is that 181 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: Can we develop that as well? 182 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? You can. I really truly believe this. I truly 183 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: believe that you can develop it. Resilience isn't something that 184 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 2: you know you're innately born with and you have your 185 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 2: cup full, and depending how full your cup is will 186 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: depend on how resilient you're ever going to be. I 187 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: think that you can learn resilience by repeatedly failing, and 188 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: repeatedly getting up again, and repeatedly going back and trying 189 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: to fix the thing that didn't work in the first place. 190 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: Because when that happens, when you fail at something, you 191 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 2: also learn to grow, You learn how to get back 192 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 2: up again because you have to do it. And so 193 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: I do think that the more times you put yourself 194 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 2: in an uncomfortable situation by failing, by making a mistake, 195 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: by doing something that's tough that you don't have the 196 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 2: confidence that you're ever going to finish. You know, by 197 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: doing those things, you experience that discomfort, but you put 198 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: through it anyway. And then when you realize that all 199 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: of these things that you can do, all of these 200 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: skills that you have, you can do them when you 201 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, it means that you're better prepared for the 202 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: next time. But there is something really powerful for me 203 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: about failure. I really believe this, because if you don't 204 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: fail at something, then I don't think that you're trying 205 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 2: something that's difficult enough, frankly, and so for me, there 206 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: is something really powerful about how you respond to failure, 207 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: not just for yourself, but for other people around you 208 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: as well. I mean, I'm in the fire Service, I 209 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 2: work in a team environment, and it's really important to 210 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: me that you can create this environment where you know 211 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 2: that if somebody fails at something, or if you fail 212 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 2: at something, people won't respond with blame or with judgment, 213 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 2: but people will respond in the way to say, hey, 214 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 2: that's okay, the world will fall down, Let's see how 215 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: we can pick this up again and put it together. 216 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 2: Because when you do that, you create a sense of 217 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: psychological safety around you. When you have psychological safety, people 218 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 2: are going to be more likely to take a risk, 219 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: they're going to do something differently, and that means they're 220 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 2: going to innovate. So I think that's a powerful and 221 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 2: I feel really strongly that we should own our failures 222 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: with as much conviction as we own every success, because frankly, 223 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: I will learn more about someone from seeing the way 224 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: they respond to one failure than i'd ever get from 225 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: a thousand successes. And I think this is part of 226 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: the problem today, especially with you know, so much social media, 227 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: we see a really kind of curated version of everybody's life. 228 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: And I got to look at leaders in the fire service, 229 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:28,479 Speaker 2: and they would be these great, big, physically imposing, strapping 230 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: guys predominantly, predominantly that never seemed to do anything wrong, 231 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 2: There always knew the answer to everything, that was so 232 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: full of confidence, even if the answer is wrong, they 233 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 2: would say it was such confidence that everyone would kind 234 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: of and believe it right. And so I see these 235 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: people and I'd never see them falter. And I used 236 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: to think, actually, you know, there are things that make 237 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: me feel vulnerable. I know that I've made mistakes, I 238 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 2: know that I've messed things up, So you know, how 239 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: can I possibly compare to those? But that's not real. 240 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: That version isn't real because what you might see is 241 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: the cherry on top of the cake. You haven't seen 242 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 2: everything else that goes into it. You haven't seen all 243 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: the failures. You haven't seen all the all the repeated, 244 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: the repeated attempts before they got to that bit. And 245 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: until we get more comfortable with showing that side of us, 246 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: it's going to be really tricky, I think, to kind 247 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 2: of show other people that actually there is a route through, 248 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: and it's not clean and it's not easy. But if 249 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 2: you're if you're not afraid to roll up your sleeves, 250 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 2: then every problem can present as an opportunity. If you're 251 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 2: not afraid to roll up with Steves and get your 252 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 2: fingernails a bit dirty. 253 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally agree, totally love it. I think I 254 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: think the irony is doctor Sabrina. I'm going to keep 255 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: calling you that because you earned it. I think that 256 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: the irony is that we we try, you know, we have. 257 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: So there's the person and then quite often the persona right, 258 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: and what you see with the big, strong, strapping whoever 259 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: who never has got no fear and never deviates and 260 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: gets everything right and always looks you know, that's a 261 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: persona like, that's a fucking act, right. Nobody's that all 262 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: the time. And of course everybody gets things wrong, and 263 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: of course everybody at some stage in some situation is insecure, 264 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: including me. Everybody's got ego, including me. But I think 265 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: the thing is when you own up to your bullshit 266 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: a little bit or a lot, people connect with you more. 267 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: When you're like a cartoon character of perfection, people can't 268 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: identify and people go, well, clearly, I could never do that, 269 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: be that, achieve that, because that person he or she 270 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:39,359 Speaker 1: is a fucking superhero who's flawless and faultless. 271 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 2: You know. 272 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: But when you can see some of yourself in someone 273 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: who is doing great things, then all of a sudden, 274 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: you go, or maybe I can do great things because 275 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: we ain't that different. Because she's got flaws, he's got flaws. 276 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: I've got flaws. You know, like you like you're living 277 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: on the street for two years, I mean that's deaf. 278 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: Definitely not a privileged upbringing. Well that's definitely not a 279 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: great starting point. But look at what you've done and 280 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: where you've been and what you've seen, you know, And 281 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: it's that that, you know, I really connect with you 282 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: when you're talking about like falling down and getting up 283 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: the failure stuff, because it's it's when we do the 284 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: hard stuff, the uncomfortable, uncertain, unfamiliar, you know, all the 285 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: stuff that we tend to avoid because we're kind of 286 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: hardwired for pleasure and for instant gratification. Or it's kind 287 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: of what controls a lot of us is that we 288 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: love that familiar, easy, comfortable, quick, painless path. But when 289 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: we do lean into the mess, when we do lean 290 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: into the pain, when we do lean into the darkness, 291 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: sometimes that's where we change. That's where we build strength, resilient, insight, understanding, awareness, competence, 292 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: you know. And then and then as you talk about 293 00:15:55,360 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: performing under pressure, well, if the pressure around ten people 294 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: is a constant, but in the middle of that, you're 295 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: the most resilient, the most experienced, the most capable, the 296 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: most willing to do the hard work, you'll have the 297 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: best experience in that, or you'll have at least the 298 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: most control and the most calm. 299 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely right, that's absolutely right. And it's difficult, 300 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: you know, because life is uncertain and people don't like uncertainty. 301 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 2: None of us do. Were hard whined for things to 302 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: be really simple and clear, so you know, doing it 303 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 2: in those kind of environments is tough. But if you're not, 304 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: if you can find the courage to step forward into that, 305 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 2: then I think people would be really surprised at what 306 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 2: they're capable of doing and what they're capable of achieving, 307 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: you know. So it's about starting to feel comfortable with 308 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: that discomfort. For me, I think is one of the 309 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: most powerful things as human beings we can do. But look, 310 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: it's tough, you know, and that point about persona and 311 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: the reality of who you are is a really important 312 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: one because you know, as much as we are we 313 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: want to say we don't care about what people's opinions 314 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: of us are. The fact is we're human beings and 315 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: we're hardwired to absorb people's reactions to us as social information. 316 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 2: It tells us a lot. So if I think back 317 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: to the time when I was experiencing homelessness, it was 318 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 2: super tough, and people would decide my value. They would 319 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,959 Speaker 2: decide I was worthless within seconds at nothing more than 320 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 2: a glance, you know, and to have people judging you 321 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 2: and worse, you know, people were really cruel with the 322 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: things that they would say. And I've been kicked and 323 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: punched and spat out more times than I care to remember. 324 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 2: But when you go through that and you experience that, 325 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 2: I could rationalize, and I could look at that person 326 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: and think, there are seven billion people in the world, 327 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 2: why should I care about your opinion? You know, you 328 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 2: don't matter to me, so rationally your response is irrelevant. 329 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: But then why do I feel so bad? And the 330 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: reality is you're absorbing that and it informs the way 331 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: that you expect the next person to respond to you 332 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 2: as well, and then it becomes part of your inner 333 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 2: narrative and the way that you speak to yourself, and 334 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: eventually you start to absorb that. So you know, the 335 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: way that people respond to us does have an impact 336 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: on us and how we feel about ourselves and how 337 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: we perceive the world and how we subsequently respond to that, 338 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 2: and that can be super tough. So there is something 339 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: from me that I've learned throughout this experience about how 340 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: I can't control how people respond to me. I can't. 341 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: I can respond how I control to other people. And 342 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: being really aware about the impact that you can have 343 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 2: on somebody else, I think is really really powerful and 344 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: it's something that I try to do every day with 345 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: whoever I'm with. And some of the people who showed 346 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 2: me the most compassion when I was experiencing homelessness were 347 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: other people who were also experiencing homelessness, and these are 348 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: the people that others were crossing the road to try 349 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 2: to avoid. But for me, everybody has value. Everybody has potential. 350 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 2: Sometimes circumstances mean really difficult to find the opportunities that 351 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 2: you need to achieve that potential, but it's there. Everybody 352 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: has value, And do you want to help someone find 353 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 2: that value just in the way that you're conducting yourself 354 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: day to day, in the way someone might respond to you, 355 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 2: or do you want to hinder it because it's easy 356 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: and you can just let out whatever you're feeling or 357 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: thinking instantly without putting that filter. That filter in place. First, Hey, 358 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 2: is me responding in a really judgmental way going to 359 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: help this person? Or is it going to make them 360 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: even worse? You know? And the likelihood is actually, if 361 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: you're responding to someone who's already in a really low 362 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 2: place by telling them they're worthless, you're not going to 363 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 2: motivate them to do anything differently, So you know, there 364 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: is something for me about how we contribute to that great, big, 365 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 2: universal soup that we all live in. And are you 366 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 2: going to do something positive with that or are you 367 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 2: going to make it a bit worse for someone that day? Yep? 368 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: So on the money, tell us about tell us if what, 369 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: as much or as little as you want. Tell us 370 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: about being homeless for two living on the street, things 371 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: sped on, kicked, punched, abused, all of that. How did 372 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: you end up there? Oh? 373 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 2: It was so horrible. Honestly, My father was terminally ill 374 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: for some time and he died when I was nine, 375 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: And after that my mom found it really difficult to cope. 376 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 2: And so I have a backstory that's by no means 377 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 2: unique to me. We lived in abject poverty. There were 378 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,719 Speaker 2: huge family rifts there, and my mum struggled with her 379 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: mental health. She broke down, her business failed. And one 380 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 2: thing I've always said is that if somebody goes to 381 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 2: war with their demons, it's everyone around them that gets 382 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 2: hit by the shrapnel. And that was totally the case 383 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 2: in our family. And by the time I was fifteen, 384 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 2: nearly sixteen, it was too much, it was too difficult. 385 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 2: I couldn't cope and I left and that's when I 386 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: started to sleep rough on the streets of Newport, which 387 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 2: is a town in South Wales in the US Okay. 388 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 2: And if I can describe Newport to you, it's it's 389 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 2: a it's a town with it was a town then 390 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 2: it's a city now. But it's a place that has 391 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 2: its challenges. It is Deprivation is high, drug use is high, 392 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 2: crime is high. It's not a lovely place to be. 393 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 2: And I can say that with love because I'm from there, 394 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 2: but it's not. It's not a great place. As a 395 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 2: sleeping rough there, of all places, was even harder. I 396 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 2: think we had a social worker. But when you're when 397 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: you're raised by someone who loves you very much, but 398 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 2: doesn't have either the mental or the physical resources to 399 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: care for you. Then you see any kind of authority 400 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: figure through a lens of mistrust. And so I was 401 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: terrified of going into care, absolutely terrified. So I started 402 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 2: to sleep rough, and i'd sleep in shop doorways. I 403 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 2: slept in the porch of a derelict church, and so 404 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: we got moved on. And then i'd sleep in a 405 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: derelict building sometimes when when I felt safe enough there too, 406 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 2: because lots of other people also slept there. People used 407 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: it for drugs and things. So I would go to 408 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 2: sleep and i'd have to by literally by the light 409 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 2: of a lighter. I'd be looking around to make sure 410 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: that there weren't any dirty needles on the floor before 411 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: i'd bed down for the night. So I didn't always 412 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: feel safe there. Even though it gave some shelter, it 413 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 2: wasn't the safest place to be. But I still went 414 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: to school every day because I didn't want people to 415 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 2: know what I was going through, because I didn't want 416 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: to end up in hare And that was really hard. 417 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 2: And I'll give you I'll give you an example of 418 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: how tough this was. One day I decided I wanted 419 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 2: to go to sleep somewhere light. And that sounds a 420 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: bit daft when I say it out loud now as 421 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 2: a grown woman, but it was just fed up of 422 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 2: not even having the control to turn a light on 423 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 2: or off. So I went to sleep in a subway 424 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 2: because it had the strip lighting there. And I put 425 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 2: my cardboard down, because when you go to sleep on concrete, 426 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 2: it's so cold. It doesn't matter how warm it might 427 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 2: be outside. It's so cold it like literally leeches the 428 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 2: heat from your bones. It's awful. So I'd always sleep 429 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 2: on cardboard. I had a sleeping bag and I bed 430 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 2: it down for the night, and I had a stray dog, 431 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 2: straight dog. I was a stray girl. It seemed to work. 432 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 2: And he used to sleep in the bottom of my 433 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 2: sleeping bag. And we'll touch on dogs a bit later, 434 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: but he would sleep in the bottom of my sleeping bag. 435 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 2: And the one this day, I woke up, it must 436 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 2: have been early hours of the morning. I couldn't tell 437 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 2: you exactly, but I woke up to the sound of 438 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 2: some drunk guy laughing, and I kind of I poked 439 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 2: my head up on my sleeping bag with felt warm 440 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: and wet, and I just thought. My initial reaction was, 441 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 2: oh my god, my dog's gone to the toilet my 442 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: sleeping bag. But as I poked my head out, I 443 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 2: could see this guy leaning back on his heels with 444 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: his kind of belt undone, just laughing. He was urinating 445 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 2: on my sleeping bag. He thought it would be hilarious 446 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: on his way back from the club or the pub 447 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: or whatever to do that to the first homeless person 448 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: he saw, which happened to be me, And it was 449 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: the most dehumanizing and humiliating experience. But look, I don't 450 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 2: think that he thought this through because, as it transpires, 451 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 2: dogs don't particularly like being urinated on in the middle 452 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 2: of the night either, and that's not the kind of 453 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: thing you want to leave around. And I don't think 454 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: you'll be doing it again anytime soon. But you know, 455 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 2: but the hang on, hang. 456 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: On, are you telling me the dog beat him on 457 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: the dick? 458 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: Well, I'm telling you I don't think he'll do it 459 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 2: again soon, because I didn't think that he wanted the 460 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 2: response that he got from the angry dog. 461 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: So I hope, I hope you dog beat him on 462 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: the dick. That's the best, Well, that's the best out 463 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 1: of a bad story ever he was, and there's the 464 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: title for the show. You're welcome, Thanks everyone. That was Sabrina, 465 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: the bloke who got his dick bit. Sorry, keep going 466 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: to the pirna. 467 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 2: No, no, it's fine, it's fine, but look the practicality 468 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: of that. I had nowhere to go, no clean bedding, 469 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 2: I had no clean clothes. So I went and I 470 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: just sat on a bench in the middle of the 471 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 2: town center, and I pulled my knees up to my 472 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: chest and I just sat there, stopping. I was sixteen 473 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: at this time. I sat there sobbing until the sun 474 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 2: came up the next morning, and then the bus station 475 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: toilets would open up at about six o'clock in the morning. 476 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 2: So I went down. I went to the sink. I 477 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: cleaned myself as best as I could. I went into 478 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: the toilet cubicle. I locked the door behind me. I 479 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 2: put my bag on the toilet seat, and I pulled 480 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 2: out a scrumpled up school uniform, and I took off 481 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 2: my urine smelling clothes. I put my uniform and then 482 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 2: I waited for the bus and I went to school. 483 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: No one would have known why I was responding the 484 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 2: way I was that day, or behaving the way that 485 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 2: I was that day, or had no interest in learning 486 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 2: or anything. No one would have what I went through, 487 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 2: but I did, and it was awful. And again it's 488 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: another early lesson in empathy for me, because we meet 489 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 2: people every day, right that we think, I really don't 490 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 2: understand your perspective or no idea why you're responding like that, 491 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 2: you'll bang out of line, But actually we never know 492 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 2: what they've been through that day before we've had that 493 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 2: interaction either. So it was a really timely reminder. But 494 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 2: I had some really difficult times. And I just want 495 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: to touch on that point about a dog, because I 496 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 2: know lots of people have opinions on people experiencing homelessness 497 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: who have dogs. And I say that very deliberately because 498 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 2: homelessness is an experience. You're not a homeless person. That 499 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 2: shouldn't be part of your identity. But lots of people 500 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 2: would pass judgment at me because I had a dog. 501 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: He was my companion, and it was really horrible some 502 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 2: of the stuff that people would say, You know, you 503 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 2: can't even look after yourself. Who the hell do you 504 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: think you are having a dog? You're cruel, You're this, 505 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 2: you're that. But Actually, no one ends up experiencing homelessness 506 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: unless they are completely socially isolated. So that dog, he 507 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 2: was the only source of social comfort and emotional comfort 508 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 2: and stability that I had for me. That relationship was 509 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 2: so meaningful. He was where my world started and where 510 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 2: it ended in a place where everything else was super chaotic. 511 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 2: He was the one stability, piece of stability that I had, 512 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: and he got cared for better than me, by the way. 513 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 2: But dogs are a super important part of my life. 514 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 2: Now I've got three. I'll always keep dogs, and I 515 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 2: just love that point of connection that they can give 516 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 2: and that companionship that they can offer when you can 517 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: otherwise be completely isolated and lonely from everything else. They're amazing, amazing. 518 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: We love dogs at the EU Project, we do, we do. 519 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:03,479 Speaker 1: We're both dog people. Melissa's crazy dogs and there we do. 520 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: We love dogs, so we completely understand. But also the 521 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: thing is dogs love you, you know, unconditionally. There's no hooks, 522 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: catchers and genders and who people think, tony because you 523 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: give them food. Have never had a dog. It's so 524 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: not just about that. Unless it's a Labrador, then it's 525 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: all about food. I'm many kidding. 526 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 2: Don't send just about to start some canine research as well. 527 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: So I've got all the kind of human decision making 528 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 2: stuff going on, but I've got a bit of a 529 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: passion project looking at dogs and in particular extreme behavioral 530 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 2: problems and what we can do to try to extinguish 531 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 2: those behaviors rather than these dogs being put to sleep. 532 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 2: But as a result, I've been looking at loads of 533 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 2: the neuroscience around dogs, and they actually get something very 534 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 2: specific about their interaction with a human in comparison to 535 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 2: their interaction with another dog. And so the amazing thing 536 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: about dogs is they've survived for thousands of years predominantly 537 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: by living by cohabiting within human social groups. So they've 538 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: evolved these exemplary cross species communication skills that are unparalleled 539 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 2: in the rest of the animal kingdom. So I can 540 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 2: guarantee you that when your dog looks at you, when 541 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,239 Speaker 2: your dog is gazing into your eyes, the research has 542 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 2: shown that they're releasing oxytocin, which we know in humans 543 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: it's been associated with trust and social bonding and even love. 544 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 2: It's a really super important neuropeptide. So anyway, dogs are 545 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 2: releasing that when they're looking at you. So they may 546 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 2: well be experiencing some kind of rudimentary form of love, 547 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: but they certainly get something different from their relationship with 548 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: humans than they do with other dogs. And it's not 549 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: just it's not just the dopaminergic pleasure pathways that they 550 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 2: get by going, Oh, you're going to give me food. 551 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: I'm associating you with food. It's a deeper, different kind 552 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: of relationship that is also linked with their social bonding 553 00:29:59,360 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: that they have with you. 554 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you. Yep, yep. Don't have to convince me. 555 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: What made you? It's probably not the right question. How 556 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: did you end up in being a firefighter or a 557 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: fire off? So I don't know what the correct term 558 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: is in Britain, But how did that opportunity present itself? 559 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: Is it something you pursued? Is that a door that opened? 560 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: How did you end up doing that? 561 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 2: Well? Initially, I hadn't thought about anything more than surviving 562 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 2: day today when I was experiencing homelessness. When you're in 563 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 2: that position, you don't necessarily have the headspace to put 564 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 2: a strategy together to live because it is literally a 565 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: surviving day to day. And I started to sell a 566 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,719 Speaker 2: street magazine called The Big Issue. I don't know if 567 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 2: you have an equivalent. We have amazing, amazing. 568 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: It's sold literally on the street that I live. 569 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 2: A fantastic, fantastic well. The big issue for me was 570 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: it was a lifeline and I'd buy this magazine for 571 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 2: cost price and I'd sell it on for a profit, 572 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 2: and eventually I started to sell it in Newport, but 573 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 2: there were quite a few other people that also sold 574 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 2: it in Newport, so you were kind of hand to mouth. 575 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 2: So I found this village. It was an hour away 576 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: on a bus, but no one else was selling it there, 577 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 2: so it was a place called Monmoth. I would get 578 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 2: on a bus, I'd sit there from seven o'clock in 579 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: the morning till seven o'clock at night, till i'd sold 580 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 2: a stack of magazines and eventually I managed to earn 581 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 2: enough to put a deposit down on a very cheap 582 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 2: and very nasty rented flat in the South Wales Valleys. 583 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: There are a few failed attempts at secure accommodation, including 584 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 2: a shared house that I managed to get a room in, 585 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: but I was quite violently attacked one of the guys. 586 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,479 Speaker 2: They put me in hospital, so I was back out 587 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: on the streets. I spent some time living in a van, 588 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 2: but eventually secure accommodation became a reality for me, and 589 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 2: it was at that point I started to think what 590 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: else might become a reality for me. And the reason 591 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 2: I started to think about the fire service is because 592 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: I think it's actually a real privilege to be a 593 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 2: firefighter because people trust you to know what to do 594 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: when they're having the worst day of their lives. They 595 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 2: don't call you unless they don't know what to do next. 596 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 2: It's an extreme situation and so to be the one 597 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 2: that's trusted to know what to do to either stop 598 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 2: that or at least stop it getting any worse, that's 599 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: really incredible. And I felt like I could relate to 600 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: it because I'd had the best part of two years 601 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 2: of feeling like I was the desperate one in need 602 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 2: of help but no one was coming. And although the 603 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 2: context was different, I think the sentiment was the same. 604 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 2: And so I started to look at the fire service 605 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 2: and I must have applied to about thirty different fire 606 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 2: departments before or fire services is there in the UK 607 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 2: before I actually got a position. It was super tough 608 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 2: and super competitive. I started off part time as a 609 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 2: retained firefighters like a volunteer fighter and then eventually got 610 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 2: a whole time position and I was woman number seven 611 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: in a workforce of seventeen hundred men. When I first started, nationally, 612 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 2: only one percent of operational firefighters were women, so they 613 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 2: were very, very few of us, and I naively kind 614 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: of went in thinking, Hey, this is going to be 615 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: amazing and it's going to be like one big, happy family. 616 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: And it was that point that I realized what sexism 617 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: actually felt like. You know, it was super And Whilst 618 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 2: I worked with some incredible people who are still like 619 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 2: big brothers and sisters to me to this very day, 620 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 2: who pushed me to do things that I never thought 621 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 2: I was capable of, I also worked with some people 622 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 2: who took exception to the fact that I was a 623 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 2: woman and if I could do it, then I think 624 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 2: it made them feel less matcho. It was a It 625 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 2: affected their sense of identity and their sense of who 626 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 2: they were, so it doesn't didn't matter who I was. 627 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 2: The fact that I was coming in is something that 628 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 2: was so far removed from how they saw themselves and 629 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: was okay doing it? You know I was, I could 630 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: do it, I could do the job. That then says 631 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 2: to that person Hey, that's completely different to the way 632 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 2: that you see yourself. And so I think some men 633 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 2: have found it slightly emasculinating. Not everybody, but some, and 634 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: the ones that did were really prepared to let me 635 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 2: know about it. In fact, there was this one guy 636 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 2: that I used to come across who worked at a 637 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 2: neighboring station. Every time i'd see him, without fail, he'd say, Yeah, 638 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 2: the thing is, I just don't agree with women in 639 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 2: the fire service. No offense to you, Sabrina, you know, 640 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 2: but I just don't agree with it. It's not a thing. 641 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 2: It shouldn't happen. It's dangerous. You know, you'll get firefighters killed. 642 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: And eventually, bear in mind, I was eighteen at this point, 643 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 2: and I kind of thought, I need to apologize for 644 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 2: my own existence here do I. But then eventually I 645 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 2: kind of got to the point where I'd be like, no, 646 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 2: I'm not having this, and I'd say, yeah, you know, 647 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: I get it. I feel you. I feel exactly the 648 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 2: same way about morons in the fire service. Shouldn't no 649 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 2: offense to you, fella, But here we are, you know, idiot. 650 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: You know what would be the perfect end to that story, 651 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: And now I'm his boss. That would be so good, 652 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: And now he drives me to appointments now, me and 653 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: my dog. 654 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 2: I suspect he's actually re tired now. But look, you know, 655 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 2: I mean, we've all said things in the past that 656 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: we regret, right, And we've all said things that have 657 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 2: hurt someone and maybe we didn't realize it at the time. 658 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 2: And I hope that as time has moved on, he's 659 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 2: had the chance to reflect on that. I don't know how. 660 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,959 Speaker 2: Maybe he's had a daughter in the meantime and he's 661 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 2: kind of seen firsthand some of the challenges and how 662 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 2: it affects someone. But you know, I don't hold it 663 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: against him. Everyone can change. Everyone is entitled to have 664 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 2: an opinion, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. 665 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 2: But it's a harmful one. Hey. It gives us a 666 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 2: chance to call it out and talk about it. And 667 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: here I am now, you know, twenty one years later, 668 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: being able to talk about it and talk about the 669 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 2: damage that it does because people you'll have those conversations today, 670 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,879 Speaker 2: So it's an opportunity. 671 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 1: So you still currently am I right, Sabrenna and saying 672 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,720 Speaker 1: you're the current chief Fire Officer of West Sussex Fire 673 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: and rescue service. So does that mean you how many 674 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: people at that station are you in charge of? 675 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 2: So it's a fire to it's a fire service rather 676 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,760 Speaker 2: rather than just a station. So we have twenty five 677 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: stations in my fire service all in all nearly one 678 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 2: thousand stuff but just under a thousand stuff. 679 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: You're in charge of one thousand staff and twenty five 680 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: centers or stations. Wow, that's bloody amazing. 681 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 2: Good for you. 682 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: That is so incredible, all right, and I'm not surprised. 683 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: I'm just impressed. What's your if there is one? What's 684 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: your leadership style? Because it definitely ain't old mate that 685 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: you just spoke about before. 686 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 2: No, No, definitely not. And I think you know, it 687 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 2: changes depending on the context. There are times when you 688 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 2: need to be quite authoritative to get a job done, 689 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 2: particularly operationally, but I always try to do it with 690 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 2: empathy and with humility. So for me, the most important 691 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 2: thing about your day to day leadership, I think is 692 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 2: to lead without ego and to lead with humility and 693 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 2: to be okay with vulnerability. You know, in my experiences 694 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 2: they've been they were really tough to talk about. You know, 695 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 2: it took me more than twenty years to talk about 696 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 2: my experience of homelessness because it made me feel a 697 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 2: shape it shouldn't, but that's that's the truth. That's how 698 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 2: that was, that kind of aching feeling in my stomach 699 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 2: that I got every time I tried to talk to 700 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 2: anyone about it, and it made me feel like I 701 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 2: couldn't be like those other leaders that I'd see in 702 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,439 Speaker 2: the fire industry, in the fire department that would be 703 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 2: you know, that would always know the answers and they 704 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 2: would always be the ones that you want to say 705 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 2: and you ought to do and made everyone feel safe 706 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 2: and secure, or so I thought. The reality is actually, 707 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 2: when somebody is so imposing on you, it can make 708 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 2: you feel insecure, not secure, because you have those vulnerabilities. Right. 709 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 2: So for me, it is about being self aware always 710 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 2: and leading that humility and putting other people's needs in 711 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 2: front of your own. You know, when anyone goes into 712 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 2: a workplace, right I see it. I choose to see 713 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 2: it like a family, And I know there are lots 714 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 2: of reasons why you may not want to do that, 715 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: because you know family and work boundaries are separation. I 716 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: think for me, in this industry, given its high risk, 717 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 2: given you rely so deeply on those other people around 718 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 2: you to be able to do extraordinary things to save 719 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 2: people's lives. I think it is important that you recognize 720 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 2: that bond and that element of trust within that. So 721 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 2: I do see it as a family. And I look 722 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 2: at my own daughter, and she's twelve now, and you know, 723 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 2: I send her to school. I try to give her 724 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: all the experiences that I can, so she'll grow up 725 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 2: to be a successful human being, right, and she'll be 726 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 2: good for the world generally, and she'll be good to 727 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 2: people in the world. So as a parent, try to 728 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 2: give your child all that, and then they go off 729 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 2: and they go into the world of work, and you 730 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 2: let go of the reins, and then you're trusting that 731 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 2: whatever organization they go into are going to treat them 732 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 2: with the same kind of dignity, the same kind of respect, 733 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 2: give them that opportunity for growth, give them the opportunity 734 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 2: to be part of something that's bigger than themselves. And 735 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 2: so I think, certainly for me, when you talk about 736 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 2: leadership style, I want it to feel like that. I 737 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 2: want it to feel like we're caring for people, like 738 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 2: they're part of our own family, and we might not 739 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 2: always get it right, you know, not everyone is going 740 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 2: to have the perfect experience within that but as part 741 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 2: and parcel of it being real because you respond to 742 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 2: those things and you make it better, so someone else 743 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 2: has a better experience that comes in behind them. But 744 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 2: I'm not afraid to fail, and I'm not afraid to 745 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 2: talk about those failures because I think that that is 746 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 2: a super import part of how other people can then 747 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 2: find what they need to be able to do something difficult, 748 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 2: or to do something innovative or something that comes with 749 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 2: a degree of risk, because they're not afraid that failure 750 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 2: means that that's terminal. So that's the way that I 751 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 2: try to look at it. It's not always it's not 752 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 2: always easy. I try to combine. I do combine my 753 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 2: research work with my day job as well, and we 754 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 2: do a lot of work around firefighter safety, and that's 755 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 2: based on the same principle for me about how we 756 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 2: can genuinely make things better, how we can help you. 757 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 2: And that research actually came from an experience that I 758 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 2: had where my husband and I, before we were married, 759 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 2: were both firefighters on neighboring stations, and one day I 760 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 2: was called to deal with an incident where another firefighter 761 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 2: had been severely burned, and there was a one and 762 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 2: four chance it was him, and so I had awful 763 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 2: sinking feeling where I went down. We were in the 764 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 2: appliance bay, the bells had gone down that a couple 765 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 2: of guys were stood at the teleprinter looking at the 766 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 2: sheet of paper. And it took me a few seconds 767 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 2: to register why everyone was kind of looking so worried 768 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 2: and so nervous. And I said, what is it? And 769 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,760 Speaker 2: I said it's a firefighter injury. It looks really bad. 770 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 2: And I said, well, why aren't we going? And they 771 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 2: said it's it's Mike's truck. It might be Mike. And 772 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 2: I felt what a world collapsed at that point, And 773 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 2: I felt like I was about to become one of 774 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 2: the people that we see every day who wake up 775 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 2: to a bowl of corn flakes and complete normality, only 776 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 2: for something to happen unexpectedly and their entire world gets 777 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,720 Speaker 2: torn apart. And as we were traveling there, I remember 778 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 2: thinking that I was really torn between the role of 779 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 2: a responder and all of the kind of responsibility and 780 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 2: accountability that goes with that, but also the role of 781 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 2: a loved one and all of the kind the kind 782 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 2: of fears and anxieties that go with that as well. Anyway, 783 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 2: we turned up and thankfully for me at least, it 784 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 2: turned out not to be him, but it was our 785 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 2: colleague who was also a friend. And it was after 786 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 2: that that I al really started to think about this 787 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 2: and it played on my mind. And what they've been 788 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 2: called to was an exploding pavement. I don't know what 789 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 2: your experiences of either explosions or pavements, but they don't 790 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,760 Speaker 2: traditionally tend to go together. So they turned up eating 791 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 2: it as a hoax. They thought it was nonsense. What 792 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 2: it actually was was an underground electrical junction box that 793 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 2: had a fault in it, and periodically, as electricity went 794 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 2: through it, it would shoot up flame like a jet engine 795 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 2: at the ground and Mike had been lying on his 796 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 2: belly with his head in the pit, poking around, wondering 797 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,879 Speaker 2: what on earth this so called exploding pavement could be. 798 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 2: And it was as he got up to put the 799 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 2: lid back in that it exploded and caught our colleague 800 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 2: clean in the face. Thankfully, he survived and he's made 801 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,760 Speaker 2: a full recovery now. But if it was seconds earlier, 802 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 2: there's no doubt in my mind that Mike would have 803 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 2: been killed outright. And so after that I started to 804 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 2: feel this intense sense of guilt because I felt like 805 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,359 Speaker 2: by not wanting it to be him so much stick 806 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 2: on someone else. And I found that really difficult to reconcile. 807 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 2: And it was then that I started to look at 808 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 2: what we could do to make it better for other 809 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 2: people in the same kind of circumstance, And naively, I thought, 810 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 2: if we can develop a better burns pack, maybe we'd 811 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 2: be better prepared. So I started off trying to do that, 812 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 2: and as I started to look into it, I discovered 813 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 2: something that astounded me, and that's the majority of injuries 814 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 2: across all industries, not just fire, happened as a result 815 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 2: of human error, not a problem with a piece of 816 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 2: equipment or a flawed policy, but a human mistake. The 817 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 2: wrong choice in the wrong place at the wrong time. 818 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 2: For that meant someone would get hurt. And so that 819 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 2: for me was the driver to go back and look 820 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 2: at what we could do to understand human error to 821 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,240 Speaker 2: reduce it. And so, as you know, I left home 822 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 2: really early at fifteen. I left school at sixteen, so 823 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 2: I didn't have a degree or qualification. So I thought Okay, 824 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 2: I'll put one foot in front of the other and 825 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 2: see where I end up. So I went back to 826 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 2: night school. I did my degree part time while working 827 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 2: all the way up to a PhD, which I did 828 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,919 Speaker 2: around work. So I'd go into the lab at five 829 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, I'd run my experiments. I'd go 830 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 2: and i'd pull a full shift in the fire service. 831 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 2: I'd go home, put my new one baby to bed 832 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 2: because that was amazing timing, wasn't it, And I'd go 833 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 2: back to the lab for the night shift, and I'd 834 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 2: be there until kind of twelve one o'clock in the 835 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,399 Speaker 2: morning sometimes. So I finished a seven year part time 836 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 2: PhD in three years. They had to re register me 837 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 2: as full time so I could submit early. And then 838 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,359 Speaker 2: since then for the last decade, now, well it will 839 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,240 Speaker 2: be more than that was twenty ten that we started, 840 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 2: So more than a decade. We've been looking at how 841 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:41,080 Speaker 2: firefighters and frontline responders make decisions actually in the heat 842 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 2: of the moment, actually at incidents live. We can understand 843 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 2: them better so that we can find techniques that can 844 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 2: help them to make better decisions, and we develop some 845 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 2: techniques in the UK that actually changed our national policy, 846 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 2: for the way that we respond to incidents, for how 847 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 2: we train our firefighters differently now to make decisions in 848 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 2: a different way because of this research and this work 849 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,879 Speaker 2: that we did, and so, you know, coming from such 850 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 2: a kind of small a corner of an idea, you know, 851 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 2: I'm so pleased that we were able to do something practical, 852 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 2: and we've notched the science along as well. We're up 853 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 2: to our I think tenth Global Science Award for the work. 854 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 2: It's been incredible and I never ever would have thought 855 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 2: when I look back to how I felt when we 856 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,359 Speaker 2: were on that truck and I felt like my entire 857 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 2: world was going to collapse in that moment. When I 858 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,880 Speaker 2: look back to that particular point in time and I 859 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 2: think where we are now, what we've been able to do, 860 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 2: I would never have been able to see it at 861 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,839 Speaker 2: the time. Someone would have said, Hey, this awful thing 862 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 2: is going to happen, but you know what, it's going 863 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 2: to be the biggest opportunity that you're going to have. 864 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,919 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have take them. There's no way I could 865 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 2: have seen it. But it's true. It's true. 866 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 1: What a beautiful synergy between your job and your or 867 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: your two jobs really your research job and you know, 868 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: your firefight, your job in the fire service, you know, 869 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: and to be able to you know, use both of them, 870 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 1: and to be able to use your research background and 871 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: your role as a PhD and all of that, but 872 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: to be able to carry out that kind of research. 873 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: And I guess you don't struggle for participants because you 874 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: can just go you're a participant. What do you mean 875 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 1: you don't want to? 876 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 2: Yes, you are, you know, like to. 877 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 1: All our people, our listeners, who are going, what are 878 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 1: we talking about? When you do PhD research? One of 879 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,360 Speaker 1: the struggles and I've been very fortunate also because they 880 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 1: have an audience, Sabrena, But one of the big struggles 881 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,200 Speaker 1: is actually to get people to participate in your studies 882 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,880 Speaker 1: because people like, how what's in it for me? But 883 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,960 Speaker 1: I guess when you're in charge of a thousand people, 884 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: you go right, and you two hundred are doing this, 885 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,879 Speaker 1: You're welcome, and it's all for the greater good. 886 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 2: We always got for volunteers, We always got for volunteers. 887 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,319 Speaker 2: But to be fair, I think, you know, improving the 888 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,320 Speaker 2: safety of firefighters is something that all firefights cared deeply 889 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 2: about because these are people that we're really close to 890 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,800 Speaker 2: you know that it's not it's not just a colleague, 891 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 2: it's it's more than that. So anything that we can 892 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,600 Speaker 2: do to keep people around us safer, I find people 893 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,759 Speaker 2: are really willing to get involved with. So we've been 894 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,880 Speaker 2: really blessed. Actually, we've had no shortage of volunteers for 895 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 2: the for the research that we've been doing over. 896 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: Of course you're their fucking boss, as if they're going 897 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: to say no. Amazingly, Amazingly, we've had no shortage. Well, 898 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: of course you're thess Oh god, just hitting the pause 899 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 1: button momentarily, as we do. Team will be back tomorrow 900 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 1: with part two of this conversation. Stand by, enjoy your 901 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:00,919 Speaker 1: day