1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Approche production. 2 00:00:16,161 --> 00:00:17,841 Speaker 2: Do you think there was a lot of corruption in 3 00:00:17,881 --> 00:00:19,921 Speaker 2: the police force back when you were like on the beat, 4 00:00:20,001 --> 00:00:23,001 Speaker 2: not only were detective, but when you first started, did 5 00:00:23,081 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 2: you see any kind of the corruption? Did you see 6 00:00:24,881 --> 00:00:27,401 Speaker 2: like you weren't like by other detectives, like when the 7 00:00:28,001 --> 00:00:31,161 Speaker 2: plane closes or whatever, or the superior ones in the 8 00:00:31,201 --> 00:00:32,721 Speaker 2: force wouldn't talk to you. 9 00:00:32,961 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: Did you see that a lot in it? 10 00:00:34,681 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 3: I come at the tail end of it, so I enjoined. 11 00:00:37,081 --> 00:00:39,521 Speaker 3: So the way that you used to become a detective 12 00:00:39,521 --> 00:00:41,721 Speaker 3: when I did it is you had to prove yourself. 13 00:00:41,441 --> 00:00:43,321 Speaker 1: On the street. You just call yourself. 14 00:00:43,561 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 3: People used to call you a thief taker, and if 15 00:00:46,001 --> 00:00:48,001 Speaker 3: you were a thief taker, you got invited to be 16 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 3: on the crime squad. So I joined the crime squad 17 00:00:51,241 --> 00:00:55,801 Speaker 3: in around ninety seven, I think it was. And there 18 00:00:55,801 --> 00:00:59,161 Speaker 3: were some older detectives on there who so they would 19 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,081 Speaker 3: have joined in the probably not this what was that seventies, 20 00:01:03,161 --> 00:01:05,121 Speaker 3: late seventies, early eighties, And I've been in for a 21 00:01:05,161 --> 00:01:09,801 Speaker 3: long time, and they were on some units that were dodgy, 22 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 3: shall we say, And the police commissioner at the time 23 00:01:14,721 --> 00:01:18,001 Speaker 3: came in and they were going to sort out corruption. 24 00:01:18,161 --> 00:01:22,201 Speaker 3: That was that was their main task, like that's what 25 00:01:22,241 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 3: they got brought in to sort out corruption. And it 26 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 3: was funny because the detectives that are on my crime squad, 27 00:01:28,721 --> 00:01:31,081 Speaker 3: it felt like it probably wasn't. It felt like every 28 00:01:31,161 --> 00:01:34,001 Speaker 3: day the net was closing in and they'd be talking 29 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 3: about someone else who's been nicked or and we would 30 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:38,961 Speaker 3: go to court and there would be police officers there 31 00:01:38,961 --> 00:01:41,961 Speaker 3: that they knew, and it was like the net was 32 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 3: really closing in on all those people that were left 33 00:01:44,441 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 3: over from that. They're not saying all detectives back then 34 00:01:47,081 --> 00:01:49,761 Speaker 3: were corrupt, but it tended to be certain units and 35 00:01:49,881 --> 00:01:50,641 Speaker 3: we had a we had a. 36 00:01:50,641 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: Unit in southeast London. 37 00:01:53,161 --> 00:01:57,041 Speaker 3: It's Beckham, it was it was right next to Peckham, 38 00:01:57,401 --> 00:02:00,841 Speaker 3: and so this was the area Crime Squad and they 39 00:02:01,201 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 3: essentially they dealt with drugs. They dealt with larger street 40 00:02:05,881 --> 00:02:08,881 Speaker 3: level would be uniform type people would deal with it 41 00:02:08,921 --> 00:02:10,961 Speaker 3: on the crime squad and as you go up they 42 00:02:10,961 --> 00:02:13,921 Speaker 3: would be in a more middle tier of drug dealers. 43 00:02:14,441 --> 00:02:18,641 Speaker 3: But these coppers nl these were criminals themselves. So what 44 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,201 Speaker 3: they would do is they would go to drug dealers 45 00:02:23,001 --> 00:02:26,841 Speaker 3: and pretend to be executing a warrant, take the drugs 46 00:02:26,841 --> 00:02:28,801 Speaker 3: off of them and then they would give them to 47 00:02:28,841 --> 00:02:30,881 Speaker 3: their friendly drug dealers, would knock them out for them, 48 00:02:31,201 --> 00:02:33,921 Speaker 3: sell them for them, but they come unstuck. So they 49 00:02:33,921 --> 00:02:36,401 Speaker 3: did a warrant on a couple of hippie types in 50 00:02:36,441 --> 00:02:40,481 Speaker 3: a caravan and they went in there and they did. 51 00:02:40,281 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: The usual thing. 52 00:02:41,401 --> 00:02:43,521 Speaker 3: And what drug dealer is really going to go to 53 00:02:43,561 --> 00:02:46,601 Speaker 3: the police and say I've just had my drugs stolen 54 00:02:46,601 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 3: by a police officer. Doesn't happen, But these hippie types did. 55 00:02:50,481 --> 00:02:52,201 Speaker 3: They went to the police and say, look, okay, look 56 00:02:52,201 --> 00:02:54,601 Speaker 3: we admit it. We were selling, we were selling cannabis 57 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,081 Speaker 3: or whatever it was. But these police officers come in 58 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,441 Speaker 3: they stole their drugs and we think it's wrong. And 59 00:02:59,441 --> 00:03:02,601 Speaker 3: that's set a ball roll in where those anti corruption 60 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,201 Speaker 3: police started to look at them and they all got 61 00:03:04,321 --> 00:03:07,641 Speaker 3: nicked and turning on each other and like. 62 00:03:07,761 --> 00:03:07,841 Speaker 1: So. 63 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: For instance, there was one job they had and they 64 00:03:09,841 --> 00:03:12,481 Speaker 3: were near Biggin Hill in South London and there's an 65 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,921 Speaker 3: airport there and some drug dealers came in and they 66 00:03:17,041 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 3: dropped bales of cannabis, like big bales of them, about 67 00:03:20,601 --> 00:03:22,881 Speaker 3: four or five, and about two of them made it 68 00:03:22,921 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 3: back to the police station and the rest just got 69 00:03:25,161 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 3: siphoned off. And I've got no time for these people 70 00:03:29,721 --> 00:03:32,201 Speaker 3: at all. I say, I grew up around criminals, but 71 00:03:32,641 --> 00:03:34,681 Speaker 3: I don't respect them. But they're in their lane and 72 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,041 Speaker 3: their criminals and they do it. 73 00:03:36,041 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: Any kind of thing. Yeah. 74 00:03:36,921 --> 00:03:39,401 Speaker 3: Fine, But but those that are in the police got 75 00:03:39,401 --> 00:03:40,961 Speaker 3: no sympathy at all. So if they end up in 76 00:03:40,961 --> 00:03:43,881 Speaker 3: prison at which they did, they shouldn't be doing that job, 77 00:03:43,921 --> 00:03:44,921 Speaker 3: should they the police officers. 78 00:03:45,121 --> 00:03:47,121 Speaker 1: The police officer should be plasing the criminals, not be 79 00:03:47,201 --> 00:03:48,081 Speaker 1: criminals themselves. 80 00:03:48,121 --> 00:03:50,401 Speaker 2: You've had murderers and all like that. What you think 81 00:03:50,561 --> 00:03:55,441 Speaker 2: in all your career, what is the worst pedophiles, terrorists, murderers, 82 00:03:55,521 --> 00:03:58,561 Speaker 2: what drug dealers? What's the worst one you've come across. 83 00:04:00,281 --> 00:04:01,361 Speaker 1: That's a really good question. 84 00:04:02,241 --> 00:04:06,801 Speaker 3: I think the worst has to be terrorists in terms 85 00:04:06,841 --> 00:04:11,841 Speaker 3: of what it is. So as an example, so we 86 00:04:12,041 --> 00:04:17,081 Speaker 3: dealt with this particular job and we were working with 87 00:04:17,641 --> 00:04:20,721 Speaker 3: m I five and Special Branch, and we're following these 88 00:04:20,721 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 3: people and we arrest them and it's not add so 89 00:04:24,601 --> 00:04:26,721 Speaker 3: the way that we worked when I was on the 90 00:04:26,801 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 3: Terrist branch, you had two sides of it. You had 91 00:04:29,041 --> 00:04:33,241 Speaker 3: the secretive types who would be doing the surveillance and 92 00:04:34,041 --> 00:04:36,321 Speaker 3: listen to people's phone calls, that kind of thing, and 93 00:04:36,361 --> 00:04:38,921 Speaker 3: you had us and we were what's known as Anti 94 00:04:38,961 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 3: Terrorist Branch, and we would do arrests, searches, interview them, 95 00:04:42,801 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 3: all the stuff where they would see us, all the 96 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:49,641 Speaker 3: overt stuff, so covert and overt, and so we were 97 00:04:49,681 --> 00:04:51,681 Speaker 3: on the surveillance with them, but we wouldn't be doing 98 00:04:51,761 --> 00:04:54,881 Speaker 3: the following. We would be sort of behind, tailing behind 99 00:04:55,001 --> 00:04:56,801 Speaker 3: slightly so that we can get. 100 00:04:56,601 --> 00:04:58,241 Speaker 1: Called forward to do the arrest. 101 00:04:58,601 --> 00:05:01,121 Speaker 3: And so it's never had decision really, and so when 102 00:05:01,161 --> 00:05:03,881 Speaker 3: the arrest would happen, and we arrested this group, this 103 00:05:04,001 --> 00:05:07,561 Speaker 3: al Qaeda cell, and god be honest, there wasn't a 104 00:05:07,561 --> 00:05:10,361 Speaker 3: lot of evidence, but they decided that it was too 105 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,161 Speaker 3: dangerous to let them run because they felt that they 106 00:05:13,161 --> 00:05:17,041 Speaker 3: were close enough to executing their plan that they couldn't 107 00:05:17,121 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 3: let it run just in case they did. So we 108 00:05:19,561 --> 00:05:22,121 Speaker 3: got them in and we still an interview at a 109 00:05:22,161 --> 00:05:25,041 Speaker 3: place called Paddington Green Police station. It was like a 110 00:05:25,081 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 3: police station within a police station. It's really really secure, 111 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,001 Speaker 3: high walls and all security doors to get into it. 112 00:05:31,401 --> 00:05:34,481 Speaker 3: So I had two of these terrorists there and there 113 00:05:34,481 --> 00:05:36,681 Speaker 3: were six, so we're three interview teams are two each 114 00:05:37,041 --> 00:05:39,241 Speaker 3: I was lead on two and we didn't have a 115 00:05:39,281 --> 00:05:41,681 Speaker 3: lot of evidence really at the beginning, and you kind 116 00:05:41,721 --> 00:05:43,721 Speaker 3: of fill in time when you've got some of the 117 00:05:43,801 --> 00:05:46,001 Speaker 3: fourteen days and never got a lot of evidence, so 118 00:05:46,001 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 3: you're kind of talking about all sorts of rubbish. And 119 00:05:48,241 --> 00:05:52,281 Speaker 3: then slowly stuff started to come through. And in one 120 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,121 Speaker 3: of their carriages they found a hard drive and on 121 00:05:55,161 --> 00:05:57,721 Speaker 3: this hard drive were the plans that they were putting 122 00:05:57,721 --> 00:06:01,561 Speaker 3: together for their terror sacs and they were chilling, honestly. 123 00:06:02,001 --> 00:06:03,761 Speaker 1: So just an example of some of the things that 124 00:06:03,761 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: they were planning. 125 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,801 Speaker 3: I say, I grew up and police in Greenwich and 126 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,961 Speaker 3: we've got an underground station near North Greenwich, and their 127 00:06:11,961 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 3: plan was to put a bomb in North Greenwich because 128 00:06:14,641 --> 00:06:18,121 Speaker 3: it's under the Thames, that would bring the river down 129 00:06:18,361 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 3: and flood the London underground system. 130 00:06:20,281 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: So it was one of the plans. 131 00:06:22,401 --> 00:06:28,401 Speaker 3: In light bulbs, no sorry, smoke alarms, there's something called 132 00:06:28,401 --> 00:06:35,801 Speaker 3: a meriseum. It's an element in all the smoke detectors 133 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,201 Speaker 3: and it's radioactive if it sets on fire. And there 134 00:06:39,241 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 3: was a fire accidental fire in a lorry in France, 135 00:06:42,401 --> 00:06:45,561 Speaker 3: carrying like a couple of thousand of these smoke detectors 136 00:06:45,561 --> 00:06:49,001 Speaker 3: and it became radioactive. So their plan was to buy 137 00:06:49,121 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 3: up thousands of smoke alarms, and even planned it to 138 00:06:53,281 --> 00:06:56,561 Speaker 3: so they didn't raise people's suspicions that suddenly all these 139 00:06:56,561 --> 00:06:59,321 Speaker 3: smoke alarms being born. They where they would buy them, 140 00:06:59,361 --> 00:07:02,001 Speaker 3: how many days it would buy them over, put them 141 00:07:02,001 --> 00:07:04,561 Speaker 3: in a lorry, drive the lorry into central London, set 142 00:07:04,601 --> 00:07:09,121 Speaker 3: it on fire, and they had calculated how many people 143 00:07:09,121 --> 00:07:13,241 Speaker 3: would die. They calculated how many people would be given cancer. 144 00:07:14,321 --> 00:07:17,961 Speaker 3: They calculated defects in berths. So they've worked out how 145 00:07:17,961 --> 00:07:19,961 Speaker 3: many people would have defective births. 146 00:07:20,001 --> 00:07:21,161 Speaker 1: Because because I. 147 00:07:21,081 --> 00:07:25,761 Speaker 3: Mean, these plans were just like crazy another one, and 148 00:07:25,841 --> 00:07:28,721 Speaker 3: they'd also started to do this thing in America as well, 149 00:07:28,801 --> 00:07:31,041 Speaker 3: and this whole it was this document. 150 00:07:31,801 --> 00:07:33,401 Speaker 1: When you read it, it read. 151 00:07:33,321 --> 00:07:36,521 Speaker 3: Like something you would see in a film or in 152 00:07:36,601 --> 00:07:39,641 Speaker 3: a book. It was called the gas Limos project. And 153 00:07:39,641 --> 00:07:41,761 Speaker 3: the reason that was another one of their plans was 154 00:07:41,761 --> 00:07:46,881 Speaker 3: that they were going to get a hearse, fill it 155 00:07:46,921 --> 00:07:50,281 Speaker 3: with the gas canisters that you would have for like 156 00:07:50,481 --> 00:07:55,281 Speaker 3: in your barb your barbies over there, and stack them 157 00:07:55,281 --> 00:07:59,121 Speaker 3: in the car, drive it under a building and explode. 158 00:07:58,681 --> 00:08:01,121 Speaker 1: It in order to bring the building down. 159 00:08:01,521 --> 00:08:05,201 Speaker 3: And they'd also been doing some reconnaissance in America up 160 00:08:05,561 --> 00:08:07,881 Speaker 3: and they'd looked at four different buildings in America, the 161 00:08:07,961 --> 00:08:12,441 Speaker 3: New Stock Exchange, a couple a couple of other high 162 00:08:12,441 --> 00:08:15,841 Speaker 3: profile buildings and they'd done hostile reconnaissance on them. So 163 00:08:16,121 --> 00:08:20,121 Speaker 3: they looked at where the cameras were, where security guards were, 164 00:08:20,481 --> 00:08:22,681 Speaker 3: and we fed this back to the Americans. And at 165 00:08:22,681 --> 00:08:25,321 Speaker 3: that time, it would have been two thousand and four, 166 00:08:25,401 --> 00:08:27,361 Speaker 3: I think two thousand and three, two hundred and four. 167 00:08:28,241 --> 00:08:29,921 Speaker 3: The army were on the streets in New York and 168 00:08:29,961 --> 00:08:32,441 Speaker 3: it all came back from us feeding them back the 169 00:08:32,521 --> 00:08:35,761 Speaker 3: plans that they had. And one of the terrorists that 170 00:08:35,801 --> 00:08:37,961 Speaker 3: I was interviewing, so, as I said, we didn't have 171 00:08:38,001 --> 00:08:39,961 Speaker 3: a lot of evidence, so they started to feed stuff 172 00:08:40,001 --> 00:08:42,921 Speaker 3: back to us, and some of it they were asking 173 00:08:43,001 --> 00:08:43,601 Speaker 3: us to look at. 174 00:08:43,641 --> 00:08:46,121 Speaker 1: So we found this, I don't know, this hard drive 175 00:08:46,241 --> 00:08:46,521 Speaker 1: or something. 176 00:08:46,801 --> 00:08:48,321 Speaker 3: Can you ever look at it because we haven't got 177 00:08:48,361 --> 00:08:50,041 Speaker 3: a lot of people and see if you can find 178 00:08:50,041 --> 00:08:52,841 Speaker 3: them the evidence on it. And so one of the 179 00:08:52,841 --> 00:08:56,321 Speaker 3: ones I was interviewing, we had some videos that have 180 00:08:56,361 --> 00:09:00,081 Speaker 3: been downloaded from his phone, and he was in New 181 00:09:00,161 --> 00:09:03,041 Speaker 3: York and this was it would have been about year 182 00:09:03,041 --> 00:09:07,081 Speaker 3: two thousand, so it was before the ninety eleven y 183 00:09:07,361 --> 00:09:10,481 Speaker 3: and he was filming across Hudson Bay and you see 184 00:09:10,561 --> 00:09:13,921 Speaker 3: him the camera going across Hudson Bay until they get 185 00:09:13,961 --> 00:09:17,001 Speaker 3: to the Twin Towers, which is still there. The camera 186 00:09:17,121 --> 00:09:22,881 Speaker 3: stops and you hear and carry on. And it was 187 00:09:22,921 --> 00:09:24,641 Speaker 3: one of those moments where the hair stood up on 188 00:09:24,681 --> 00:09:26,201 Speaker 3: the back of my back of my neck and I 189 00:09:26,241 --> 00:09:27,441 Speaker 3: was like, can you rewind that? 190 00:09:27,601 --> 00:09:29,441 Speaker 1: Can you rewind that? And we did it again. 191 00:09:29,521 --> 00:09:34,881 Speaker 3: It's like and it just it highlighted how high up 192 00:09:34,921 --> 00:09:38,841 Speaker 3: these people were, because they clearly knew about nine to 193 00:09:38,841 --> 00:09:42,441 Speaker 3: eleven before it happened, and it was just chilling to 194 00:09:42,481 --> 00:09:44,001 Speaker 3: think that these are the kind of people that you 195 00:09:44,041 --> 00:09:46,961 Speaker 3: spend two weeks in an interview room talking to, and 196 00:09:47,041 --> 00:09:51,081 Speaker 3: when you're talking to these people, I always I had 197 00:09:51,081 --> 00:09:54,321 Speaker 3: a technique when I interviewed terrorists, anybody, really, and it 198 00:09:54,481 --> 00:09:56,121 Speaker 3: fall back to what I was talking about earlier about 199 00:09:56,201 --> 00:09:59,201 Speaker 3: having that rapport with people and being able to get 200 00:09:59,201 --> 00:10:01,841 Speaker 3: on with someone. And I always felt that it was 201 00:10:01,921 --> 00:10:04,641 Speaker 3: much easier to try and break someone down or get 202 00:10:04,641 --> 00:10:06,761 Speaker 3: them to talk talk to you if they liked you. 203 00:10:06,801 --> 00:10:10,281 Speaker 1: So in between a terrorists won't even talk to you. 204 00:10:10,321 --> 00:10:10,681 Speaker 1: They won't. 205 00:10:11,201 --> 00:10:13,281 Speaker 3: They won't say no comment, they won't answer their name, 206 00:10:13,361 --> 00:10:15,361 Speaker 3: They just they will just leave a look at the floor, look. 207 00:10:15,201 --> 00:10:16,081 Speaker 1: At the wall, or whatever. 208 00:10:16,921 --> 00:10:18,961 Speaker 3: But in between you can talk to them and you 209 00:10:19,081 --> 00:10:20,921 Speaker 3: kind of get a rapport going with them. 210 00:10:20,921 --> 00:10:22,801 Speaker 1: Do you like, what football team? Do you like? What 211 00:10:22,961 --> 00:10:24,481 Speaker 1: do I mean? Where'd you get? What do you do? 212 00:10:24,881 --> 00:10:26,281 Speaker 1: Trying to where did you go to school? Where do 213 00:10:26,281 --> 00:10:27,401 Speaker 1: you grow up? All that kind of thing. So you're 214 00:10:27,401 --> 00:10:28,081 Speaker 1: trying to build up. 215 00:10:28,001 --> 00:10:31,401 Speaker 3: A rapport with them, and you have to do that 216 00:10:31,641 --> 00:10:36,321 Speaker 3: despite in that these people are so evil. But even 217 00:10:36,361 --> 00:10:40,561 Speaker 3: to go down to that detail of how many defects 218 00:10:40,601 --> 00:10:43,001 Speaker 3: in birth are going to cause, I mean, that is evil, 219 00:10:43,041 --> 00:10:45,361 Speaker 3: isn't it. I can't I can't think of anything worse 220 00:10:45,401 --> 00:10:45,801 Speaker 3: than that.