1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:00,720 Speaker 1: Awarding. 2 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 2: This episode contains descriptions of extreme animal cruelty. 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: From the newsroom a news still come to you. Hi there, 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Bucklow. Listen. We've got a very full on 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: episode for you today. 6 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 2: A disturbing you investigation has uncovered cat tortur rings selling 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: violent videos, not just overseas, but potentially right here in Australia. 8 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: Now, these aren't just acts of cruelty. 9 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: They're being created, sold and watched for sexual gratification, and 10 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: experts say they could be linked to broader patterns of 11 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 2: misogyny and even violent crime. 12 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: Today, I'm going to. 13 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: Speak with a journalist who exposed this horrifying story. He'll 14 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: explain what changes need to be made today to stop 15 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 2: these videos from ever getting made. Nelson Groom is a 16 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 2: freelance writer who's written a piece for news dot com 17 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 2: dot Au that honestly shocked me. 18 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: He joins me now to tell me all about it. 19 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: Good day, Nelson, Good day, Andrews. 20 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 21 00:00:58,040 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: Not a problem. 22 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 2: According to your reporting, people here in Australia are buying 23 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: videos of cats being tortured. I mean this is so disturbing, 24 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: not only that ossies are buying them, but that they're 25 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: being made at all. Firstly, can you just give us 26 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 2: an idea of what is in these videos? 27 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: Describe them for us. 28 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 3: So these videos are part of an online kind of 29 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 3: marketplace for this kind of really extreme content. It means 30 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 3: that people are actually commissioning this animal cruelty and the 31 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 3: torturers are actually profiting off it, so it's pretty shocking stuff. 32 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 3: The videos used to be confined to the dark Web. 33 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 3: We have seen that they started spreading on some encrypted 34 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 3: platforms like Telegram, and now they're actually being shared for 35 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 3: free and spilling onto mainstream social media, so it means 36 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 3: that everyone's being exposed and it's actually inspiring some real 37 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,279 Speaker 3: life violence from the viewers as well, so it's pretty 38 00:01:58,280 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 3: shocking stuff. 39 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: Where are these videos coming from? Do we know where 40 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: they're being made? 41 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 3: We do know that the majority of the content is 42 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 3: being filmed in China, where there are no actual laws 43 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 3: against animal cruelty, so it's a bit of a legal loophole. 44 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 3: But there's some concerning signs that the videos are actually 45 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 3: starting to spread around the world and they're now being 46 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 3: sold and made in Australia. This is pretty concerning because 47 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: it's very easy to access these videos, especially when some 48 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 3: of them are being reshared on mainstream social media. And 49 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 3: there's actually evidence that some of these groups are recruiting 50 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 3: underage viewers on mainstream social media as well. So it's 51 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 3: a pretty big issue. 52 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: I think, bloody hell. All right, A lot to ask 53 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: you about there. 54 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: Firstly, I guess it's hard to fathom to most of 55 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: us why anyone would want to see these videos at all. 56 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 2: Do we know why a small section of the community, 57 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 2: fairly six sections of the community are into them. 58 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 3: Look, it's a good question, Andrew. Experts say that these 59 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 3: people can be drawn to this kind of content by 60 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 3: a sexual fetish. This is known as zoo saddism, and 61 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: what this means is that they're actually paying for the 62 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 3: pleasure of watching animals suffer. The indications are that the 63 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 3: content is typically consumed by young men aged sixteen to 64 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: twenty four, and some of them are actually motivated to 65 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 3: harm cats because that's the favorite animal of women. So 66 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: this means the cruelty is kind of coming from a 67 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 3: place of rejection, and it echoes a bit of the 68 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 3: ideology that you'll find in the in cell community. And 69 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 3: activists say, you know, some of these viewers are actually 70 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 3: drawn to this content because the screens of a cat 71 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 3: can sound like the screams of a woman. 72 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. All right, I just want to go 73 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: back to what you said a second ago. You said 74 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: that the majority of these videos seemed to be filmed 75 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: in China, but that there are concerns some are actually 76 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: being shot right here in Australia. 77 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: What is that based on? 78 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 3: That's right? So there were some pretty alarming signs that 79 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: this underworld has been imported locally. There were a number 80 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: of messages inside these chat groups that we uncovered and 81 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 3: indicated there was a large number of Australian members, and 82 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 3: this was confirmed by the activists that we worked with 83 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 3: on this story. There were also some quite aligned patterns 84 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 3: in some local cases of cruelty. I spoke with a 85 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 3: Sydney animal rescuer who had discovered some recent cases of 86 00:04:54,960 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 3: really unprecedented animal cruelty, and the activists that are with 87 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 3: indicated that these cases involve some very specific methods that 88 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 3: aligned with videos that were distributed around that same time 89 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 3: in the networks. The tortures that are making these videos 90 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 3: are very careful to conceal their identity, so it's not 91 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 3: easy to confirm if these cases were a direct product 92 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 3: of these networks or they were just sort of inspired 93 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 3: by them, but there does seem to be a strong 94 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 3: link between the two. 95 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: Can you tell us more about what was found in 96 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: New South Wales? 97 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 3: There was a number of cats discovered in the sort 98 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 3: of vicinity of this animal rescuer without getting to graphic, 99 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 3: they were in pretty unspeakable states, very kind of advanced 100 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 3: disfigurement and the techniques that were used. This is not 101 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 3: easy to learn that this is very kind of specialized 102 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 3: extreme cases of cruelty. And yeah, the link with these 103 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 3: networks I think is pretty concerning. 104 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: Well, as he said, we're still not entirely sure if 105 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: you know, these examples of torture are for the videos 106 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 2: that are being sold online, but it is disturbing that 107 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 2: obviously cats are being tortured in Australia. Do our animal 108 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 2: cruelty laws have the teeth to kind of deal with 109 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 2: these crimes, especially when there's a digital and perhaps an 110 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 2: international element. 111 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 3: So Australia does have laws against animal cruelty. This also 112 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 3: includes any content that incites it, but as we mentioned, 113 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 3: most of this content is being created in China, and 114 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 3: the sort of legal loophole over there. That doesn't mean 115 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 3: that we can become complacent about it. We do know 116 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 3: that this kind of content can actually inspire real life 117 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 3: violence in the viewers. I spoke with a very experienced 118 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 3: UK based animal crime investigator who is a retired senior detective. 119 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 3: His name's Mark Randall. Mark said that the link with 120 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:06,559 Speaker 3: animal cruelty and other abuse is very strong. These kind 121 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: of acts can be a sort of training ground for 122 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 3: cruelty against humans, and this was backed up with some 123 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 3: evidence surrounding the Rings. There's a real demonstrated history of 124 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 3: ring members committing pretty extreme violence and it's typically against women. 125 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 3: There was a recent case in Turkey where one member 126 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 3: allegedly murdered to young women and another case where a 127 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 3: member in China allegedly murdered eight people. So ultimately, what 128 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 3: Mark was saying is that when police don't take this 129 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 3: kind of animal cruelty seriously, it leads the community vulnerable 130 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 3: to related acts of violence. And yeah, there was some 131 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: signs this could already be happening in Australia. 132 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: Stick around, will we have more with Nelson Groom in 133 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: just a moment, Welcome back. I'm chatting to freelance journalist 134 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: Nelson Groom, who's written a rather shockingpiece for us dot 135 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: com dot about cat torture videos being sold to people 136 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,239 Speaker 2: here in Australia. Nelson, you spoke to activists or working 137 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: undercover to expose these networks, often a great personal risk. 138 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 2: Tell us what kind of work are they doing behind 139 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: the scenes, and what's stood out to you about their efforts. 140 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 3: So I spoke with a number of activists around the 141 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 3: world who are really devoting their lives to this cause. 142 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 3: They're working very hard to track down and expose the torturers, 143 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 3: and they're doing all this while holding down day jobs. 144 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 3: I think it was quite reassuring to hear that there 145 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 3: is this kind of resistance and this work to combat 146 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 3: what's going on. The most prominent activists are a group 147 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 3: known as Feline Guardians, who played a really huge part 148 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 3: in this investigation. They're doing a lot of help to 149 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 3: combat this cause, and by doing so, they are putting 150 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 3: themselves at risk of violence and threats from the members 151 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 3: of these rings. I also spoke with Ossie activists in 152 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 3: Melbourne named Lisa, who's of Chinese descent. Lisa spends a 153 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 3: huge amount of time exposing these rings and she's also 154 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 3: campaigning to change the legislation in China. 155 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: So these activists they kind of watch the videos and 156 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: comb through them for details, and if they can identify 157 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: anything relating to a person who may be filming them, 158 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 2: they send that off to the authorities. 159 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: Is that right, that's right. They essentially looking to unmask 160 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 3: and expose these tortures. They're also really active in the 161 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 3: kind of campaigning to change the legislation, and they're also 162 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 3: getting involved at a political level as well, so they're 163 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: very dedicated to this court. 164 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's speak about that. 165 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: Obviously, these activists aren't going to be able to stop 166 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: these videos on their own. There also needs to be 167 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: action from governments overseas and from tech platforms as well, 168 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: where these videos are being sold and shared. 169 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: What could they do to crack down on these videos? 170 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 3: So I think the most urgent priority is changing their 171 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 3: legislation in China. As I mentioned, there's a it's a 172 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 3: sort of legal loophole that's allowing this to happen. So 173 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 3: I think that's the root of the issue that needs 174 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 3: to be addressed. But beyond that, I think it's important 175 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 3: for social media companies as well to do more to 176 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 3: crack down on this content. Given the links between violence 177 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 3: in the community, it would be logical to take serious 178 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 3: action against anyone consuming or creating these videos. I think, yeah, 179 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 3: they've really got no place in the community. 180 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 2: Well, if you want more details about this very disturbing story, 181 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 2: you can read Nelson's full article on news dot com 182 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: dot au. 183 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: Nelson, thanks so much for your time. 184 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 3: Thank you, Andrew. 185 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry to kick off your week with such 186 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 2: a depressing story, but it's obviously a very important one, 187 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: and hopefully by shining a light on it, we can 188 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: get a step closer to stopping these videos from ever 189 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: getting made. 190 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. Bye for now, follow us, 191 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: subscribe to from the Newsroom wherever you get your podcasts.