WEBVTT - The $11 billion warship decision testing Australia’s alliances

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>Australian defense officials are currently deciding whether to buy warships

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<v Speaker 1>off Germany or Japan. It's an eleven billion dollar decision

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<v Speaker 1>with consequences that go well beyond that. Given Japan describes

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<v Speaker 1>Australia as its most important security partner after the United States,

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<v Speaker 1>our decision on the warships will send a signal about

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<v Speaker 1>whether the relationship is reciprocated. These considerations have been sharpened

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<v Speaker 1>by the recent appearance of the Chinese navy off our

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<v Speaker 1>shores and by the Trump administration's reshaping of American foreign policy.

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<v Speaker 1>Today special correspondent for the Saturday Paper, Jason Kotsukus on

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<v Speaker 1>the frigate deal that could cement the Japan Australia Alliance

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<v Speaker 1>or sink it. It's Thursday, April three. So, Jason, you

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<v Speaker 1>lived and worked in Japan for several years, didn't you?

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me about it?

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<v Speaker 2>Ruby, I did live there for three and a half years.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, I was working for the Japanese media company Nike,

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<v Speaker 2>which most Australians probably know as having something to do

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<v Speaker 2>with the Nike Index. Nik does still own the index.

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<v Speaker 2>They also own a big newspaper there, and they've been

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<v Speaker 2>trying to expand overseas, so that's why they've been hiring

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<v Speaker 2>people like me to help them with their English language expansion.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was a fascinating experience.

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<v Speaker 1>And so, as an Australian journalist working for a Japanese

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<v Speaker 1>media company, what did you observe about how Japan sees

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<v Speaker 1>its relationship with Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>I think Japan does really still think of Australia the

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<v Speaker 2>way I thought of Australia in the nineteen eighties. Australia

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<v Speaker 2>is still very much just a tourist destination. It's also

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<v Speaker 2>a place where they buy their iron ore and their

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<v Speaker 2>natural gas, and it hasn't really, in the minds of

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<v Speaker 2>most Japanese people on the street, developed much beyond that.

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<v Speaker 2>But I do think since Australia signed a defense agreement

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<v Speaker 2>with Japan a few years ago under then Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 2>Scott Morrison, more Japanese are starting to take Australia more

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<v Speaker 2>seriously as a real kind of security partner.

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<v Speaker 3>Talks are reportedly underway to arrange a four way somewhere

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<v Speaker 3>between the United States, Japan, Australia and India. The so

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<v Speaker 3>called Quad Framework, apparently to counter the influence of China

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<v Speaker 3>in the region.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, Japan and Australia are both in this four

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<v Speaker 2>nation grouping known as the CORD and I think when

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<v Speaker 2>the Orcas Agreement was announced that also got a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more Japanese people sort of sitting up and taking Australia more.

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<v Speaker 4>Seriously America by the DAYO.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, can you tell me a bit more about that.

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<v Speaker 1>What we've heard from Japan about the way it sees

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<v Speaker 1>Australia and the signs that perhaps the relationship is deepening.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think there's no better side of how Australia

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<v Speaker 2>is viewed by Japan than a speech last week given

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<v Speaker 2>by the Japanese Ambassador to Australia, Kazahiro Suzuki. He was

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<v Speaker 2>speaking at the eighth Annual Japan Symposium at the University

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<v Speaker 2>of Western Australia, and Ambassador Szuki did say in his

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<v Speaker 2>speech that the current security relationship between Japan, Australia and

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<v Speaker 2>the US is an Isosceles triangle where you've got two

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<v Speaker 2>equal sides and one shorter side. And I guess for him,

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<v Speaker 2>Japan and the US are two big, strong, influential players

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<v Speaker 2>when it comes to the Indo Pacific. So is Australia

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<v Speaker 2>ready to step up and start contributing as much to

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<v Speaker 2>the triangle as Japan and the.

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<v Speaker 1>And so what is your view on that? Do we

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<v Speaker 1>think about Japan as much as it thinks about us?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? I think Australia has said a lot of good

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<v Speaker 2>things about Japan in the past five to ten years.

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<v Speaker 2>It has aggressively courted Japan as a security partner. We

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<v Speaker 2>have the Quad and Australia signed a defense and security

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<v Speaker 2>partnership with Japan. It's the only partnership of its kind

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<v Speaker 2>that Japan has with any other nation except the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>And now Australian defense officials have established this new frigate

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<v Speaker 2>program called the C three thousand General Purpose Frigate Program,

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<v Speaker 2>and Japan has been shortlisted as one of two possible

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<v Speaker 2>designers for this new frigate. It's a program that will

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<v Speaker 2>eventually see eleven frigates built for the Royal Australian Navy. Frigates,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, are a smaller, more versatile kind of warship

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<v Speaker 2>and under this program, Australia and visitors that the first

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<v Speaker 2>three frigates will be built overseas. At a foreign shipyard

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<v Speaker 2>and then after that the remaining eight ships will be built,

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<v Speaker 2>probably in Western Australia. And the government is at the

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<v Speaker 2>stage where it's down to these two tenders for this

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<v Speaker 2>general purpose frigate. One is from Japan where the prime

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<v Speaker 2>contractor would be Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The other design is

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<v Speaker 2>from Germany and the contractor there is Tissen Krup Marine System.

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<v Speaker 4>Ordering of eleven new warships. They've got a ten billion

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<v Speaker 4>dollar purchase decision to make. It's come down to a

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<v Speaker 4>choice between Japanese or German built frigates for our navy.

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<v Speaker 4>Now the former Japanese ambassador to Australia is pushing the

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<v Speaker 4>PM to let Japan build the warships.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so what would you say the main difference is

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<v Speaker 1>than Jason between the two proposals.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, let's start with the German frigate, which is called

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<v Speaker 2>the Miko eight two hundred. It's one of the most

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<v Speaker 2>widely exported frigates in the world in its class. It's

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<v Speaker 2>used in multiple navies across the world, in South Africa, Algeria, Egypt, Poland.

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<v Speaker 2>It's approven design. These frigates are modular, so all the

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<v Speaker 2>important stuff like the weapons, sensors and combat systems are

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<v Speaker 2>in these discrete, self contained units that can be added

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<v Speaker 2>or moved around independently of the ship's structure. The German

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<v Speaker 2>design is also a bit more affordable. They're smaller, they

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<v Speaker 2>have a lighter weapons load. They're basically IKEA ships. On

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<v Speaker 2>the other hand, the Mgami class from Japan.

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<v Speaker 5>I explain about a current status with the Mogama crass

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<v Speaker 5>constructions from twenty eighteenth. We have started contraction over mogam

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<v Speaker 5>class today.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a new design. It's an upgrade on the Mcgami class,

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<v Speaker 2>I should say, and there's a bunch of new improvements

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<v Speaker 2>built into this ship design that will help the Australian

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<v Speaker 2>Navy respond to China's naval capabilities.

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<v Speaker 5>This is a flexible modira design capabilities, so you can

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<v Speaker 5>modify this kind of a mast with a powerful lad

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<v Speaker 5>as a foreign countries or fording manufacturer Ladio systems.

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<v Speaker 2>One defense official told me that in theory, the Magami

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<v Speaker 2>class is a better ship. The problem is it hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>been tested in the water yet. But what can't be

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<v Speaker 2>ignored in this decision is that the Japanese ships do

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<v Speaker 2>carry a lot more strategic weight. You know, Japan is

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<v Speaker 2>a crucial partner for Australia and they've shown that they're

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<v Speaker 2>very strategically invested in the outcome. And if Australia picked

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<v Speaker 2>the Japanese consortium, I think that would send a very

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<v Speaker 2>strong signal to Tokyo that Australia wants to deepen its partnership.

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<v Speaker 2>But we've come close to a deal like this with

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<v Speaker 2>Japan before and it didn't end well.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up after the break Tony Abbott and the handshake deal,

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<v Speaker 1>he denied.

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<v Speaker 1>Jason, you said that Australia and Japan have had a

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<v Speaker 1>deal similar to this one fall through in the past,

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<v Speaker 1>so tell me what happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it wasn't just that a potential defense deal between

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<v Speaker 2>our two countries fell through. It was a spectacular failure

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<v Speaker 2>that left a lot of bitterness in Japan.

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<v Speaker 7>We want the best possible subs for the best possible price.

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<v Speaker 7>We want the world's best conventional submarines, and Madam Speaker,

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<v Speaker 7>who builds them and where they're built will depend upon

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<v Speaker 7>a competitive evaluation process. That is as it should be.

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<v Speaker 2>It was back in twenty fourteen when Tony Abbott was

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<v Speaker 2>Prime Minister and he did a handshake deal with his

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<v Speaker 2>Japanese counterparit Shinzo Abe and promised him that Australia would

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<v Speaker 2>select Japan to build eight sorry you class submarines for

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<v Speaker 2>Australia to replace our Collins class submarines.

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<v Speaker 8>Can the Prime Minister please advise the House as to

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<v Speaker 8>whether he or anyone acting on his behalf has entered

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<v Speaker 8>into an agreement with Prime Minister Abe and or the

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<v Speaker 8>Government of Japan concerning the future submarine project, and if so,

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<v Speaker 8>what is the nature of such an agreement.

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<v Speaker 2>I call the Honorable the Prime Minister.

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<v Speaker 5>Now Madeu Spuega.

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<v Speaker 7>Of course, we are exploring the potential for defense cooperation

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<v Speaker 7>with Japan. Is another is this another outbreak of xenophobia ammers?

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<v Speaker 2>As Abbot made the proposal without knowing which submarine would

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<v Speaker 2>actually best suit Australia both technically and strategically. He told

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<v Speaker 2>Chinzo Abe that he would award Japan the fifty billion

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<v Speaker 2>dollar contract without talking to any of his cabinet colleagues,

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<v Speaker 2>and this caused a lot of uproar in Australia and

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<v Speaker 2>serious pressure on his leadership.

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<v Speaker 1>In Adelaide, the defense industry and state government are growing

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<v Speaker 1>increasingly frustrated with the submarine contract situation.

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<v Speaker 2>And in order to survive a leadership challenge, he made

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<v Speaker 2>a promise to South Australian MBS that the new fleet

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<v Speaker 2>OF's submarines would be put on an open tender, and

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<v Speaker 2>he tried to deny that he ever made a secret

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<v Speaker 2>deal with Tokyo.

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<v Speaker 7>So I've had discussions about submarine partnerships with Japan, I've

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<v Speaker 7>had discussions about submarine partnerships with the Germans, and I've

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<v Speaker 7>had discussions about submarine partnerships with the French. Now it's true,

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<v Speaker 7>it's true that those discussions up till now have been

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<v Speaker 7>more detailed with the Japanese because the Javanese and.

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<v Speaker 2>By February twenty fifteen, Abbott had formerly reneged on this

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<v Speaker 2>deal with Shinzo Abe and eventually the contract was awarded

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<v Speaker 2>to France, and then.

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<v Speaker 1>We famously backed out of that deal and signed up

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<v Speaker 1>to buy the US subs Right.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, So we didn't just dug the Japanese. We,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, perhaps even more notoriously went on to reneg

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<v Speaker 2>on our deal to buy new submarines from France. I

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<v Speaker 2>guess at least reneggie on the promise to Japan didn't

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<v Speaker 2>cost us anything. Backing out of the deal with France

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<v Speaker 2>cost Australian taxpayers are billion dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>So I mean we have some form here, Jason, and

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<v Speaker 1>it seems like Japan they might be right to be

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<v Speaker 1>cautious when it comes to making any kind of security

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<v Speaker 1>or manufacturing deal with US. So what happens now at

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<v Speaker 1>this stage if the Australian government decides not to go

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<v Speaker 1>with Japan this time around.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, As one person who's close to the Japanese bid

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<v Speaker 2>told me, the Japanese are pragmatic and if they lose,

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<v Speaker 2>they will say this is unfortunate and we're disappointed because

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<v Speaker 2>we had high hopes, and everyone in Australia will read

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<v Speaker 2>that as a sign that they are okay about not

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<v Speaker 2>winning the bid, but that will not be the case

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<v Speaker 2>behind the scenes, and I think that's pretty accurate. They

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<v Speaker 2>will definitely be very polite about it, but under the surface,

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<v Speaker 2>I think the Japanese would be very puzzled as to

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<v Speaker 2>the real reasoning behind Australia not investing in the partnership

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<v Speaker 2>with Japan, and it would take quite a bit of

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<v Speaker 2>time for Australia to really recover from that. Mitsubishi heavy

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<v Speaker 2>the company that's going to build these frigates, They've done

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<v Speaker 2>everything possible to make clear to the Australians that they

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<v Speaker 2>can meet every technical specification that they need in this ship,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think if Japan doesn't succeed this time, they'll

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<v Speaker 2>really start to wonder whether Australia does take it seriously

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<v Speaker 2>as a real kind of security and industrial partner.

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<v Speaker 1>Jason, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh thanks Rby, thanks for having me on seven Am.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Shadow Treasurer Angus Taylor has

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<v Speaker 1>announced the Coalition will establish a new statutory body in

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<v Speaker 1>the Treasury aimed at fast tracking private sector investment if

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<v Speaker 1>a coalition government were elected. He says the proposed office,

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<v Speaker 1>called Investment Australia, report directly to the Treasurer and Cabinet,

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<v Speaker 1>and will have legislated powers to hold government agencies to

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<v Speaker 1>account for bureaucratic delays on major national projects. And the

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<v Speaker 1>Victorian Parliament has approved new anti vilification laws, which the

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<v Speaker 1>government says will protect more people from hate speech or

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<v Speaker 1>harmful conduct. The new laws extend anti vilification protections to

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<v Speaker 1>cover disability, gender and sexual identity, as well as those

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<v Speaker 1>who have a personal association with someone who has a

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<v Speaker 1>protected attribute. I'm Ruby Jones seven am will be back tomorrow.