Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM.
Speaker 1: Australian defense officials are currently deciding whether to buy warships
Speaker 1: off Germany or Japan. It's an eleven billion dollar decision
Speaker 1: with consequences that go well beyond that. Given Japan describes
Speaker 1: Australia as its most important security partner after the United States,
Speaker 1: our decision on the warships will send a signal about
Speaker 1: whether the relationship is reciprocated. These considerations have been sharpened
Speaker 1: by the recent appearance of the Chinese navy off our
Speaker 1: shores and by the Trump administration's reshaping of American foreign policy.
Speaker 1: Today special correspondent for the Saturday Paper, Jason Kotsukus on
Speaker 1: the frigate deal that could cement the Japan Australia Alliance
Speaker 1: or sink it. It's Thursday, April three. So, Jason, you
Speaker 1: lived and worked in Japan for several years, didn't you?
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about it?
Speaker 2: Ruby, I did live there for three and a half years.
Speaker 2: In fact, I was working for the Japanese media company Nike,
Speaker 2: which most Australians probably know as having something to do
Speaker 2: with the Nike Index. Nik does still own the index.
Speaker 2: They also own a big newspaper there, and they've been
Speaker 2: trying to expand overseas, so that's why they've been hiring
Speaker 2: people like me to help them with their English language expansion.
Speaker 2: And it was a fascinating experience.
Speaker 1: And so, as an Australian journalist working for a Japanese
Speaker 1: media company, what did you observe about how Japan sees
Speaker 1: its relationship with Australia.
Speaker 2: I think Japan does really still think of Australia the
Speaker 2: way I thought of Australia in the nineteen eighties. Australia
Speaker 2: is still very much just a tourist destination. It's also
Speaker 2: a place where they buy their iron ore and their
Speaker 2: natural gas, and it hasn't really, in the minds of
Speaker 2: most Japanese people on the street, developed much beyond that.
Speaker 2: But I do think since Australia signed a defense agreement
Speaker 2: with Japan a few years ago under then Prime Minister
Speaker 2: Scott Morrison, more Japanese are starting to take Australia more
Speaker 2: seriously as a real kind of security partner.
Speaker 3: Talks are reportedly underway to arrange a four way somewhere
Speaker 3: between the United States, Japan, Australia and India. The so
Speaker 3: called Quad Framework, apparently to counter the influence of China
Speaker 3: in the region.
Speaker 2: Of course, Japan and Australia are both in this four
Speaker 2: nation grouping known as the CORD and I think when
Speaker 2: the Orcas Agreement was announced that also got a lot
Speaker 2: more Japanese people sort of sitting up and taking Australia more.
Speaker 4: Seriously America by the DAYO.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, can you tell me a bit more about that.
Speaker 1: What we've heard from Japan about the way it sees
Speaker 1: Australia and the signs that perhaps the relationship is deepening.
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's no better side of how Australia
Speaker 2: is viewed by Japan than a speech last week given
Speaker 2: by the Japanese Ambassador to Australia, Kazahiro Suzuki. He was
Speaker 2: speaking at the eighth Annual Japan Symposium at the University
Speaker 2: of Western Australia, and Ambassador Szuki did say in his
Speaker 2: speech that the current security relationship between Japan, Australia and
Speaker 2: the US is an Isosceles triangle where you've got two
Speaker 2: equal sides and one shorter side. And I guess for him,
Speaker 2: Japan and the US are two big, strong, influential players
Speaker 2: when it comes to the Indo Pacific. So is Australia
Speaker 2: ready to step up and start contributing as much to
Speaker 2: the triangle as Japan and the.
Speaker 1: And so what is your view on that? Do we
Speaker 1: think about Japan as much as it thinks about us?
Speaker 2: Well? I think Australia has said a lot of good
Speaker 2: things about Japan in the past five to ten years.
Speaker 2: It has aggressively courted Japan as a security partner. We
Speaker 2: have the Quad and Australia signed a defense and security
Speaker 2: partnership with Japan. It's the only partnership of its kind
Speaker 2: that Japan has with any other nation except the United States.
Speaker 2: And now Australian defense officials have established this new frigate
Speaker 2: program called the C three thousand General Purpose Frigate Program,
Speaker 2: and Japan has been shortlisted as one of two possible
Speaker 2: designers for this new frigate. It's a program that will
Speaker 2: eventually see eleven frigates built for the Royal Australian Navy. Frigates,
Speaker 2: of course, are a smaller, more versatile kind of warship
Speaker 2: and under this program, Australia and visitors that the first
Speaker 2: three frigates will be built overseas. At a foreign shipyard
Speaker 2: and then after that the remaining eight ships will be built,
Speaker 2: probably in Western Australia. And the government is at the
Speaker 2: stage where it's down to these two tenders for this
Speaker 2: general purpose frigate. One is from Japan where the prime
Speaker 2: contractor would be Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The other design is
Speaker 2: from Germany and the contractor there is Tissen Krup Marine System.
Speaker 4: Ordering of eleven new warships. They've got a ten billion
Speaker 4: dollar purchase decision to make. It's come down to a
Speaker 4: choice between Japanese or German built frigates for our navy.
Speaker 4: Now the former Japanese ambassador to Australia is pushing the
Speaker 4: PM to let Japan build the warships.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what would you say the main difference is
Speaker 1: than Jason between the two proposals.
Speaker 2: Well, let's start with the German frigate, which is called
Speaker 2: the Miko eight two hundred. It's one of the most
Speaker 2: widely exported frigates in the world in its class. It's
Speaker 2: used in multiple navies across the world, in South Africa, Algeria, Egypt, Poland.
Speaker 2: It's approven design. These frigates are modular, so all the
Speaker 2: important stuff like the weapons, sensors and combat systems are
Speaker 2: in these discrete, self contained units that can be added
Speaker 2: or moved around independently of the ship's structure. The German
Speaker 2: design is also a bit more affordable. They're smaller, they
Speaker 2: have a lighter weapons load. They're basically IKEA ships. On
Speaker 2: the other hand, the Mgami class from Japan.
Speaker 5: I explain about a current status with the Mogama crass
Speaker 5: constructions from twenty eighteenth. We have started contraction over mogam
Speaker 5: class today.
Speaker 2: It's a new design. It's an upgrade on the Mcgami class,
Speaker 2: I should say, and there's a bunch of new improvements
Speaker 2: built into this ship design that will help the Australian
Speaker 2: Navy respond to China's naval capabilities.
Speaker 5: This is a flexible modira design capabilities, so you can
Speaker 5: modify this kind of a mast with a powerful lad
Speaker 5: as a foreign countries or fording manufacturer Ladio systems.
Speaker 2: One defense official told me that in theory, the Magami
Speaker 2: class is a better ship. The problem is it hasn't
Speaker 2: been tested in the water yet. But what can't be
Speaker 2: ignored in this decision is that the Japanese ships do
Speaker 2: carry a lot more strategic weight. You know, Japan is
Speaker 2: a crucial partner for Australia and they've shown that they're
Speaker 2: very strategically invested in the outcome. And if Australia picked
Speaker 2: the Japanese consortium, I think that would send a very
Speaker 2: strong signal to Tokyo that Australia wants to deepen its partnership.
Speaker 2: But we've come close to a deal like this with
Speaker 2: Japan before and it didn't end well.
Speaker 1: Coming up after the break Tony Abbott and the handshake deal,
Speaker 1: he denied.
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Speaker 1: Jason, you said that Australia and Japan have had a
Speaker 1: deal similar to this one fall through in the past,
Speaker 1: so tell me what happened.
Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't just that a potential defense deal between
Speaker 2: our two countries fell through. It was a spectacular failure
Speaker 2: that left a lot of bitterness in Japan.
Speaker 7: We want the best possible subs for the best possible price.
Speaker 7: We want the world's best conventional submarines, and Madam Speaker,
Speaker 7: who builds them and where they're built will depend upon
Speaker 7: a competitive evaluation process. That is as it should be.
Speaker 2: It was back in twenty fourteen when Tony Abbott was
Speaker 2: Prime Minister and he did a handshake deal with his
Speaker 2: Japanese counterparit Shinzo Abe and promised him that Australia would
Speaker 2: select Japan to build eight sorry you class submarines for
Speaker 2: Australia to replace our Collins class submarines.
Speaker 8: Can the Prime Minister please advise the House as to
Speaker 8: whether he or anyone acting on his behalf has entered
Speaker 8: into an agreement with Prime Minister Abe and or the
Speaker 8: Government of Japan concerning the future submarine project, and if so,
Speaker 8: what is the nature of such an agreement.
Speaker 2: I call the Honorable the Prime Minister.
Speaker 5: Now Madeu Spuega.
Speaker 7: Of course, we are exploring the potential for defense cooperation
Speaker 7: with Japan. Is another is this another outbreak of xenophobia ammers?
Speaker 2: As Abbot made the proposal without knowing which submarine would
Speaker 2: actually best suit Australia both technically and strategically. He told
Speaker 2: Chinzo Abe that he would award Japan the fifty billion
Speaker 2: dollar contract without talking to any of his cabinet colleagues,
Speaker 2: and this caused a lot of uproar in Australia and
Speaker 2: serious pressure on his leadership.
Speaker 1: In Adelaide, the defense industry and state government are growing
Speaker 1: increasingly frustrated with the submarine contract situation.
Speaker 2: And in order to survive a leadership challenge, he made
Speaker 2: a promise to South Australian MBS that the new fleet
Speaker 2: OF's submarines would be put on an open tender, and
Speaker 2: he tried to deny that he ever made a secret
Speaker 2: deal with Tokyo.
Speaker 7: So I've had discussions about submarine partnerships with Japan, I've
Speaker 7: had discussions about submarine partnerships with the Germans, and I've
Speaker 7: had discussions about submarine partnerships with the French. Now it's true,
Speaker 7: it's true that those discussions up till now have been
Speaker 7: more detailed with the Japanese because the Javanese and.
Speaker 2: By February twenty fifteen, Abbott had formerly reneged on this
Speaker 2: deal with Shinzo Abe and eventually the contract was awarded
Speaker 2: to France, and then.
Speaker 1: We famously backed out of that deal and signed up
Speaker 1: to buy the US subs Right.
Speaker 2: That's right, So we didn't just dug the Japanese. We,
Speaker 2: of course, perhaps even more notoriously went on to reneg
Speaker 2: on our deal to buy new submarines from France. I
Speaker 2: guess at least reneggie on the promise to Japan didn't
Speaker 2: cost us anything. Backing out of the deal with France
Speaker 2: cost Australian taxpayers are billion dollars.
Speaker 1: So I mean we have some form here, Jason, and
Speaker 1: it seems like Japan they might be right to be
Speaker 1: cautious when it comes to making any kind of security
Speaker 1: or manufacturing deal with US. So what happens now at
Speaker 1: this stage if the Australian government decides not to go
Speaker 1: with Japan this time around.
Speaker 2: Well, As one person who's close to the Japanese bid
Speaker 2: told me, the Japanese are pragmatic and if they lose,
Speaker 2: they will say this is unfortunate and we're disappointed because
Speaker 2: we had high hopes, and everyone in Australia will read
Speaker 2: that as a sign that they are okay about not
Speaker 2: winning the bid, but that will not be the case
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, and I think that's pretty accurate. They
Speaker 2: will definitely be very polite about it, but under the surface,
Speaker 2: I think the Japanese would be very puzzled as to
Speaker 2: the real reasoning behind Australia not investing in the partnership
Speaker 2: with Japan, and it would take quite a bit of
Speaker 2: time for Australia to really recover from that. Mitsubishi heavy
Speaker 2: the company that's going to build these frigates, They've done
Speaker 2: everything possible to make clear to the Australians that they
Speaker 2: can meet every technical specification that they need in this ship,
Speaker 2: and I think if Japan doesn't succeed this time, they'll
Speaker 2: really start to wonder whether Australia does take it seriously
Speaker 2: as a real kind of security and industrial partner.
Speaker 1: Jason, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2: Oh thanks Rby, thanks for having me on seven Am.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, Shadow Treasurer Angus Taylor has
Speaker 1: announced the Coalition will establish a new statutory body in
Speaker 1: the Treasury aimed at fast tracking private sector investment if
Speaker 1: a coalition government were elected. He says the proposed office,
Speaker 1: called Investment Australia, report directly to the Treasurer and Cabinet,
Speaker 1: and will have legislated powers to hold government agencies to
Speaker 1: account for bureaucratic delays on major national projects. And the
Speaker 1: Victorian Parliament has approved new anti vilification laws, which the
Speaker 1: government says will protect more people from hate speech or
Speaker 1: harmful conduct. The new laws extend anti vilification protections to
Speaker 1: cover disability, gender and sexual identity, as well as those
Speaker 1: who have a personal association with someone who has a
Speaker 1: protected attribute. I'm Ruby Jones seven am will be back tomorrow.