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Speaker 1: What is ahead is the hardest, most challenging, seemingly the

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Speaker 1: most awful time that you will have, and it will

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Speaker 1: be the richest, most rewarding, most personally transformative.

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Speaker 2: Time of your life. I'm a different.

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Speaker 1: Person from before I cared for Dad to after in

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Speaker 1: all of the very best ways.

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Speaker 2: And it is.

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Speaker 1: Time that you never get back with this person that

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Speaker 1: you love like of course I would give him two

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Speaker 1: and a half years. He walked me in, I walk

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Speaker 1: him out.

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Speaker 3: Good. Thanks for listening to the show. This is Better

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Speaker 3: Than Yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations to help make

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Speaker 3: your day to day better than yesterday, every week since

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Speaker 3: twenty thirteen. My name's Osha Ginzburg. I'm glad you're here.

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Speaker 3: I have a question. What if right now this podcast

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Speaker 3: was interrupted by a phone call and it's your mum

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Speaker 3: or your dad, maybe your partner, and it's about their

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Speaker 3: health and it's not good news. What if it meant

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Speaker 3: that your immediate future was about to look very different

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Speaker 3: to what you'd planned, and that from now on until

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Speaker 3: an undetermined point in the future, you'll be taking up

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Speaker 3: the role of care. Now, maybe this isn't a what

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Speaker 3: if for you. Maybe you've already had this call. You

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Speaker 3: might be in the midst of that journey now. The

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Speaker 3: uncomfortable truth is that this is a situation that more

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Speaker 3: of us will face than not, and when we do,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot to deal with, There's a lot to know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of support you can need. My guest today

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Speaker 3: is Casey Barros. She's an award winning health journalist, keynote speaker, author.

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Speaker 3: She's done TV with Channel ten, the ABC, She's written

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Speaker 3: for Body and Soul, Women's Health, Muma Miya, and she

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Speaker 3: has been the loving care for her father and experience

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Speaker 3: that she captured in her best selling book Next of Kin,

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Speaker 3: A compassionate guide to the world of care, or certainly

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Speaker 3: what to expect when you're expecting to care for someone

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Speaker 3: you love. It's part memoir, part really grounded practical advice.

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Speaker 3: It's full of empathy, full of warmth. You can expect

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Speaker 3: all those things from our conversation today. There's important tips

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Speaker 3: about navigating the healthcare system, advocating making sure care is

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Speaker 3: also care for themselves, dealing with grief, the importance of

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Speaker 3: finding meaning in loss, and so much more. It's a

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Speaker 3: great conversation. We're going to get to it right after

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Speaker 3: the break Thanks so much for listening to the show

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Speaker 3: Casey Burros is my guest today. Her new book is

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Speaker 3: called Next of Kin. I'll put a link in the

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Speaker 3: show notes. Enjoy the chat. Thank you for coming in,

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much. How is your day today? How's

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Speaker 3: your morning? Good?

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Speaker 2: Really good?

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Speaker 1: I had breakfast in the sunshine, I flew in last

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Speaker 1: night marvelous, and then I had brecky and then I

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Speaker 1: came here.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't ask for more.

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Speaker 3: And where have you flown in from?

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Speaker 2: From Perth?

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Speaker 3: I'm aware of this place far away.

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Speaker 2: It's a whole nother country on the other.

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Speaker 3: Rise, it's not its own country. It's tried a couple times.

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Speaker 3: I don't think Australia really quite grasps how easily they

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Speaker 3: could just go, Okay, we're going to go nearby, Yes,

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Speaker 3: and that'll be it. Yes, what are we going to do?

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Speaker 2: And we'd be fine.

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Speaker 3: It'd be so fine. How is the western side of things?

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Speaker 2: Earth is great?

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Speaker 1: I was in Sydney for fifteen years and when I

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Speaker 1: got the call from my dad saying that he was ill,

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Speaker 1: that was when I moved back, and I was I'd

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Speaker 1: really very much built my life here in Sydney. Been

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Speaker 1: a long time. It had my babies here, I'd met

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Speaker 1: my husband here, I built a career here.

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Speaker 2: I had no intention of going back.

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Speaker 1: And then you get one of those calls that picks

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Speaker 1: you up by ankles and shakes you around a bit.

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Speaker 1: And I have to say, now, being back there, I

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Speaker 1: can see how breakneck the pace of Sydney was.

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Speaker 2: But I couldn't see it because I was so in it.

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Speaker 3: Ye, when you're in it, you don't know, and I was.

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Speaker 1: I think I was quite lonely. Yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I've moved home. Lots of my friends have moved home.

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Speaker 1: We're all raising babies together. We live in houses, not

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Speaker 1: apartments because the cost of living is different. So we

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Speaker 1: can throw our babies in a bath together and have

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Speaker 1: a barbecue, and we've got space to do that.

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Speaker 3: Ah, tell me of this magical time, magical place. Where?

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Speaker 3: How old are your kids now?

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Speaker 2: Five and eight?

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Speaker 3: I asked this because our youngest hasn't We talk about

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Speaker 3: death a bit. We lost a goldfish the other day,

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Speaker 3: for example, Oh, we can just go get another one. Yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 3: he hasn't quite figured out that Mum and dad will

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Speaker 3: die as well. Do you remember how old you were

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Speaker 3: when you first kind of grasped that your parents were mortal.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember how old I was, but I do

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Speaker 1: remember always having a very strong sense of my own

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Speaker 1: mortality and the people around me. And that's one thing

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Speaker 1: that dad always said to me. He said, You've always

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Speaker 1: had a really strong sense, perhaps too strong a sense

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Speaker 1: of that. I don't know where that came from, or

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Speaker 1: I certainly don't remember having lots of sick people or

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Speaker 1: lots of death around me, So I don't know why

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Speaker 1: or where that came from. But I do remember knowing

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Speaker 1: and almost being a bit fearful actually, of the fact

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Speaker 1: that life was going to come to end and end

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Speaker 1: one day, and how weird that was that one day

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Speaker 1: I just would not be here anymore.

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Speaker 3: My parents were both doctors, so we asked him about

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Speaker 3: death quite a bit. I would ask him about have

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Speaker 3: you seen someone die in front of you? And me

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Speaker 3: and my dad to talk about it quite a bit,

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Speaker 3: and it was all very and because doctors, I'd seen

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Speaker 3: a lot of road trauma, I'd see dead bodies and

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Speaker 3: stuff like that, but I never figured out that it

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Speaker 3: could happen to them. When I was eleven, I think

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Speaker 3: about this to you today, when I was eleven, one

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Speaker 3: of my classmates lost her father, and in that moment,

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Speaker 3: I was in the back of dad's car and I

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Speaker 3: was like, Oh, what, my dad's gonna die one day,

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Speaker 3: and I kind of felt I just felt this like

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Speaker 3: really heavy thing. I was eleven, though, when I kind

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Speaker 3: of figured that out. When you become an adult, though,

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Speaker 3: it starts to happen more and more to your friends.

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Speaker 3: When did things start to When did you really start

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Speaker 3: to understand or understand it would how it might affect you,

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Speaker 3: or know how life might look like when your parents

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Speaker 3: aren't around anymore.

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Speaker 1: I remember when I was in year nine, one of

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Speaker 1: my best girlfriends fathers died really suddenly. I think he

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Speaker 1: went for a scuba dive and whatever that thing is

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Speaker 1: that happens when.

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Speaker 2: They don't equalize properly when they.

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Speaker 3: Come up the benz.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that happens.

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Speaker 1: And I remember being at school and somebody coming to

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Speaker 1: tell her and her being taken out of the classroom

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Speaker 1: and into another room, and I think because I was

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Speaker 1: really close with her at the time, somebody came and

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Speaker 1: grabbed me to come and be a support person for her,

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Speaker 1: and I just remember in the for months afterwards, I

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Speaker 1: would go to her house, their dream house that the

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Speaker 1: parents had built, and I would see her mother sitting

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen staring out the window, chain smoking cigarettes,

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Speaker 1: and you know, watching the impact that had on my

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Speaker 1: friend and on her brother's and on the mother, on

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Speaker 1: the wife.

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Speaker 2: I do remember that being a real moment of gosh,

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Speaker 2: this is there's no good news here, this is just

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Speaker 2: the pits.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the impact, the human impact I suppose not as

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Speaker 1: a not as a concept, but the tangible impact that

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Speaker 1: that was having on those people, and that there yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was no silver lining, there was no good news.

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Speaker 1: He was just gone and that was awful for them.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that drilled it in.

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Speaker 3: And you're describing I mean, now it's clue that someone

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Speaker 3: who's depressed, someone who probably didn't even realize the effect

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Speaker 3: that it was having on her own family, that survived.

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Speaker 3: I got a similar phone call that you got. I've

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Speaker 3: got a similar fun call from my mum. I was

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Speaker 3: looking overseas a bit of a shoulder. She was doctor,

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Speaker 3: so she wrote herself as thing went got an next ray,

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I way went for the radiologist. Solvie Sweet

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Speaker 3: walked out of the car park looked up at it went, ah,

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Speaker 3: I've got about six months. Yeah, called me so I

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Speaker 3: know what. I know what the phone call is like,

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Speaker 3: I've had it. Do you remember do you remember seeing

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Speaker 3: that that your phone light up?

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Speaker 1: Do you remember that day in such vivid detail? I

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Speaker 1: we were in woggle Wogga. My husband had graduated from

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Speaker 1: his master's degree and he went to a university, Charles

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Speaker 1: Sturt University, I think it's called down there. And he'd

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Speaker 1: said to me, we're not going to the graduation ceremony.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, we are going to the graduation ceremony.

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Speaker 1: You are going to wear a cap and a gown

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to watch you walk across that stage.

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Speaker 1: It's been three years of our life that you have studied,

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Speaker 1: and I've either edited your assignments or had the kids.

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Speaker 1: We're going got the whole family to come. So it

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Speaker 1: was actually a really happy, joyful and I think because

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Speaker 1: my husband is a teacher, I'm sort of in media

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Speaker 1: and publishing and what have you, and so there's a

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Speaker 1: lot more I suppose you'd call them champagne moments in

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Speaker 1: my life than there are in his. He's kind of

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Speaker 1: the rock steady and I'm this all over the place,

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Speaker 1: and I said to him, I just am going to

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Speaker 1: like stay in this moment with you and like really

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Speaker 1: shower him in everything that he deserved for a huge

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Speaker 1: achievement doing a master's degree. And I remember Dad had

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Speaker 1: text me the night before, I think, saying, hey, have

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Speaker 1: you got time for a quick chat soon? And ordinarily

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Speaker 1: I would have speed dilled him, but I think we

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Speaker 1: were out for dinner celebrating my husband, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to sit in that energy for a bit. So I

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Speaker 1: of course messaged him and said, is everything okay? I'm

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Speaker 1: just doing this with my husband. Can I call you tomorrow?

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Speaker 1: And he, on reflection, I could see that he hadn't

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Speaker 1: really answered my question as to whether or not everything

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Speaker 1: was okay, But he didn't say anything that felt sort

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Speaker 1: of alarming, and so I sort of parked it and

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Speaker 1: let my husband have his moment in the sun. I

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Speaker 1: went to the graduation ceremony the next day, and then

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Speaker 1: afterwards when we got home, I said, I've got to

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Speaker 1: call dat. He messaged me yesterday saying that he needed

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Speaker 1: to have a chat. And I will never forget I

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Speaker 1: was in this completely unfamiliar airbnb in Wogga Wogga had

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Speaker 1: never been there, never been there before, And I will

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Speaker 1: never forget the exact layout of the room, and the

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Speaker 1: colors of the wall and the texture of the carpet,

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Speaker 1: and exactly where I stood and then sat and then

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Speaker 1: slumped on the floor as he delivered this news, and

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Speaker 1: you know, good old older millennial. I immediately put him

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Speaker 1: on speakerphone and started googling what it was that we

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Speaker 1: were talking about. And he had told me that he'd

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Speaker 1: been diagnosed with something called mesa thelioma. So for people

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Speaker 1: listening who don't know what that is, that's councer from

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Speaker 1: exposure to asbestos. And so I immediately googled Mesa thelia prognosis.

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Speaker 1: And now I'm lucky. I wouldn't ordinarily recommend people jumped

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Speaker 1: straight to doctor Google, but I've spent almost twenty years

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Speaker 1: as a health journalist. I know the good quality sources

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Speaker 1: versus the not good quality sources. I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: get a sense of what it was that we were

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Speaker 1: talking about, and my eyes were like jumping from link

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Speaker 1: to link. Six months, twelve months fatal, incurable. I knew

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Speaker 1: it was really bad news and that I was going

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Speaker 1: to lose him sooner. Rather than later. And it's just

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Speaker 1: it's one of those moments that we could have. But

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Speaker 1: you can be on such a high. Yeah, but life

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Speaker 1: doesn't care. Life's like time to mix things up.

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Speaker 3: Anything can happen at any time. That is the deal

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Speaker 3: of life. Yes, And if you really sit in that

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Speaker 3: anything can happen at anytime, it can. Anything means anything,

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Speaker 3: and anytime means anytime. Yes, And being acceptance of that

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Speaker 3: anything and any time could be the best day ever

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Speaker 3: when you didn't expect it. Or I said goodbye to

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Speaker 3: them on the way to school this morning and I

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Speaker 3: never saw them again. It's hard, but that's that's life.

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Speaker 3: And being an acceptance of that. In my experience, it's

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Speaker 3: hard but has made things easier. Yes, I tend to

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Speaker 3: get less surprised when shit goes down because being in

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Speaker 3: a resistance of shit going down, in my experience, has

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Speaker 3: been the great sorts of pain in my life. Trying

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Speaker 3: to push it away, being stuck at that denial space

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Speaker 3: bit of a blessing and a curse. Being literate, health literate,

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Speaker 3: it can make that bargaining phase real. Extend, really extend

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Speaker 3: that bargaining phase when you go what about oh, hang on,

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Speaker 3: let me call this specialist. Oh there's a treatment I

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Speaker 3: found a Mexican. Yes, you know. Did that happen to you?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: And I have to say I call myself the eternal pessimist.

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Speaker 1: And what I mean by that it sounds quite doomy

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Speaker 1: and gloomy. I don't mean it to be. But when

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Speaker 1: I hear six to twelve months, what that says to

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Speaker 1: me what I believe is six months at best. And

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that there's no hope or optimism. I

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Speaker 1: kind of prefer optimism over hope, particularly in that.

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Speaker 2: Like real bad news.

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Speaker 1: But what it did was it lit a fire under

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Speaker 1: me and we didn't dawdle. I jumped on a plane.

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Speaker 1: We went back to Perth. The borders shot behind us,

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Speaker 1: so we had sort of inadvertently moved to Perth because

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Speaker 1: we couldn't leave because we wouldn't have been allowed back

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Speaker 1: in again. So COVID forced our hand a bit. But

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Speaker 1: it meant that we immediately we booked the trips. We

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Speaker 1: went out for second breakfast, just because we went to

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Speaker 1: the beach on a Tuesday morning because we could, And

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Speaker 1: it meant that I soaked up every moment of that

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Speaker 1: experience with him and that we were very lucky. We

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Speaker 1: ended up getting two and a half years, not six

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Speaker 1: to twelve months. We really got more time than they

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Speaker 1: said that we would get, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: have said to me along the way that it was

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Speaker 1: in part because of the care that I was able

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Speaker 1: to deliver right that gave him more time.

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Speaker 3: Tell me about the choice around taking on the role

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Speaker 3: of the care with your dad.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember making a choice, or rather, I don't

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Speaker 1: remember weighing it up. To me, it felt like almost

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Speaker 1: a compulsion, and I'm very lucky. I've got a friend

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Speaker 1: of mine who I used to work for. She's a

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Speaker 1: bit older than me. We've lived weirdly parallel lives. She

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Speaker 1: had lost her father at a very similar age, and

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Speaker 1: she was the first person that I called, and I

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Speaker 1: said to her, I was supposed to be recording an

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Speaker 1: audiobook in Sydney the following like, I had a lot

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Speaker 1: on on my plate, and we had very much built

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Speaker 1: our lives there. And I remember saying to her, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what to do. I'm hearing rumors that the

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Speaker 1: borders are going to close. I'm terrified that I'm going

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Speaker 1: to end up being one of those poor souls on

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Speaker 1: the Today Show pleading to be let in to the

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Speaker 1: state so I can say goodbye to my dying dad.

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Speaker 1: I really didn't want that for him or for me,

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Speaker 1: and I said, what do I do? Am I hitting

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Speaker 1: the panic button by going straight to him. I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to panic him either, And she said, drop everything

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Speaker 1: and go.

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Speaker 2: You will work the rest out. The audiobook will be rescheduled.

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Speaker 1: Nothing matters more than this, And I think I intrinsically

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Speaker 1: knew that, but it's like I needed permission from somebody

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Speaker 1: else that I wasn't being overly dramatic and that this

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Speaker 1: really was all that there is to focus on at

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Speaker 1: this time. I'm so glad that she did, because we

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Speaker 1: landed at midday to the premiere holding a press conference

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Speaker 1: saying that at midnight he would close the borders indefinitely,

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Speaker 1: and you did.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that was a tough time. It was for a

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Speaker 3: lot of people, because in that moment, you think, I've

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Speaker 3: got a house to pack up, I've got you know,

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Speaker 3: there's an entire you know, cadence of life that will

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Speaker 3: go on and bits of it will fall apart because

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Speaker 3: you're not physically there. But then to just go and

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Speaker 3: it'll sort itself. Out what do you kind of wish

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Speaker 3: was also in that phone call about here's what's ahead

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Speaker 3: of you as far as your relationship with yourself, with

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Speaker 3: your kids, with your partner, with your career, because you're

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Speaker 3: going to do that. If you could have had that

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Speaker 3: phone call, if someone called you, if it were appropriate,

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Speaker 3: and they asked, what would you tell them about here's

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Speaker 3: what's ahead?

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Speaker 1: I would say, what is ahead is the hardest, most challenging,

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Speaker 1: seemingly the most awful time that you will have, and

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Speaker 1: it will be the richest, most rewarding, most personally transformative

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Speaker 1: time of your life. I don't know any other experience

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Speaker 1: in life that packs the same emotional punch as the

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Speaker 1: pendulum swinging from you being the child and then being

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Speaker 1: the adult, to you essentially becoming the no matter how

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Speaker 1: old you are, to you essentially becoming the adult, and

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Speaker 1: then reverting to child, which is essentially what happens at

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Speaker 1: the end. And that doesn't feel fair and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel right, and it doesn't always work like that, but

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Speaker 1: that is what it feels like. And when you are

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Speaker 1: managing a young family and a care and some semblance

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Speaker 1: of relationships or a marriage or whatever your setup is,

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Speaker 1: and then trying to care for an aging parent. I

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Speaker 1: don't think anybody can prepare you for what that experience

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Speaker 1: is like, but I think almost being given the permission

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Speaker 1: to know that this is going to be rough, like

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Speaker 1: as rough as it gets physically, mentally, socially, spiritually, financially,

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Speaker 1: emotionally rough, and you are going to gain so much

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Speaker 1: from this experience, which sounds almost selfish, but care is

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Speaker 1: completely selfless, or that's how it feels. And I have

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Speaker 1: to say I am forever changed. I'm a different person

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Speaker 1: from before I cared for Dad to after in all

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Speaker 1: of the very best ways.

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Speaker 2: And it is.

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Speaker 1: Time that you never get back with this person that

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Speaker 1: you love. Like of course I would give him two

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Speaker 1: and a half years of my life, course he gave

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Speaker 1: me so much of his. I took the mentality of

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Speaker 1: walked me in, I walk him out. And I remember

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Speaker 1: I was sitting at a cafe with another older mentor

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Speaker 1: type friend. She had also cared for her father, and

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Speaker 1: Dad was being and I say this with love and compassion,

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Speaker 1: a total pain in the ass at one point, the

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Speaker 1: same perfectly, imperfect, flawed pain in the ass that he'd

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Speaker 1: always been, but now with a terminal prognosis on board

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Speaker 1: his own relationship challenges, life stuff, tough stuff, and he

359
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Speaker 1: was being really difficult. And I said to her, I

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Speaker 1: am this close to getting on a plane taking my

361
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Speaker 1: little family and saying, you can care for yourself if

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Speaker 1: this is how you're going to be, And I was

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Speaker 1: talking a big game.

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Speaker 2: There's no way that I was going to do it.

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Speaker 2: I was just venting.

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Speaker 1: You need somebody to vent to sometimes because it tests

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Speaker 1: even the best relationships. And I will never forget, she

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00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,120
Speaker 1: said to me. But you won't because on the other

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Speaker 1: side of this, you will walk away and pack this

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Speaker 1: experience away in yourself, knowing that you gave it everything

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Speaker 1: that you had and that you may this truly terrible

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Speaker 1: time a tiny bit better for him.

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Speaker 2: And she was bang on.

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Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people when they are grieving,

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Speaker 1: they also have the complexities of shame, regret, disappointment, things

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Speaker 1: left unsaid. And I don't have any of that. I

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Speaker 1: just have pure, unadulterated grief.

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Speaker 3: It's not complex, and grief isn't always staring at the

379
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Speaker 3: window smoking dirries. Grief can also be joyous. It's a strange,

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Speaker 3: sad joy, but it is a thing you talked about

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Speaker 3: the child becoming the parent. There's those little moments you

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Speaker 3: see in your own kids. This morning, Walkank going to

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Speaker 3: school and he's peddling his bike and he took this

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Speaker 3: tricky corner around aheely bin, Like, oh man, it's like

385
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 3: a little bit more independence that, a little bit less

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Speaker 3: dependent on me. Away he goes. You know when g

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Speaker 3: got her license, Like there it is when she went

388
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,240
Speaker 3: overseas for the first time. There she goes. You know,

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Speaker 3: this little part of your breaks, like they're never going

390
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Speaker 3: to be the little girl again or they're never going

391
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Speaker 3: to be that little boy again, but you're also happy

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Speaker 3: about it when you have your own kids. Yes, you're

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Speaker 3: still someone else's child if your parents are still alive,

394
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Speaker 3: but you suddenly you get that, oh, the kind of

395
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,439
Speaker 3: level up. Oh here I am. I wasn't this a

396
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,440
Speaker 3: week ago, but now I'm here right, And then there's

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Speaker 3: almost another kind of feeling of I'm not saying it's traumatic,

398
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 3: but it is. It's a rough kind of launching into

399
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Speaker 3: a different version of adulthood. When a parent dies, or

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Speaker 3: when you take that as you said, it can happen

401
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 3: before it's happened to you. When you take on that

402
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,120
Speaker 3: parent role. Can you talk a little bit about that

403
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,160
Speaker 3: and what it felt like to, Oh, hang on a second.

404
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 3: I'm I can relate to because when I was overseas

405
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 3: or like, even though my parents on the other side

406
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,119
Speaker 3: of the world, somewhere I know in the back of

407
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 3: my head there around they've got it, and there's this

408
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 3: place that I can go if I really really need to.

409
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Speaker 3: There's a couch. Was divorced and all kinds of shit like,

410
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,880
Speaker 3: and that knowledge was like, I can do the rest

411
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Speaker 3: of this. You know, it's like a blave rep if

412
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,200
Speaker 3: you're ap selling whatever. But once you realize that's gone

413
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Speaker 3: as never coming back that even though I was in

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Speaker 3: my forties, it's like, this is really hard.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And I think that we think it will

416
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Speaker 1: happen much later. You know, my parents, my mother lost

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Speaker 1: her parents in her I was sort of twenty or something,

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Speaker 1: so she would have been, you know, like in her

419
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Speaker 1: late fifties.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

421
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Speaker 1: And so I think we think that it will happen later,

422
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Speaker 1: And then when it happens earlier, and all of a sudden,

423
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Speaker 1: you're kind of top of the tree. And that was

424
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Speaker 1: a really interesting part of the process actually, both professionally

425
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Speaker 1: as a health journalist, and personally, I think I think

426
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Speaker 1: I expected that there would be somebody in charge.

427
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Speaker 2: I didn't know who they would be.

428
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Speaker 1: They might be like someone sitting in the sky with

429
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Speaker 1: a clipboard, or at least somebody sitting in an office

430
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 1: at a hospital or something. And even after at that

431
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 1: point fifteen years of navigating the healthcare system, reporting on it,

432
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Speaker 1: asking questions of our brightest minds, thought I knew this

433
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: system really intimately. And then I got there and I

434
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Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, we're in charge. I'm in charge,

435
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 1: and he's in charge the patient and the terror Like

436
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: when we say that the system is patient led, we

437
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: are not mucking around. Patient led, patient driven, patient navigated.

438
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: And if that patient is lucky, they have a carer

439
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: to sit with them in that ride shotgun help them

440
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,159
Speaker 1: navigate the system. But so many don't. And that was

441
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 1: kind of shocking to me professionally. And then I suppose

442
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: on a personal level, those moments where you are having

443
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: to advocate for somebody and they're not really sure what

444
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 1: they want or what they thought they wanted isn't actually

445
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 1: what they want. When they get to the end of

446
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: their lives and you're still trying to advocate for something

447
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 1: that they told you that they wanted when they were

448
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: really clear mind. But now their body language is showing

449
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 1: you that maybe they don't want that, but you're not clear.

450
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 2: It's so difficult, so.

451
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 1: So hard, kind of like when you have little babies,

452
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 1: you know, and you start to learn over time, like, oh,

453
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 1: this crime means they're tired, and this crime means that

454
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: they're hungry.

455
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 3: You can't see crimes. They're going to try Dad get

456
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,360
Speaker 3: a bit more time on that iPad because Mum said.

457
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 2: No, yes, exactly exactly.

458
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like that, and you're kind of

459
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,439
Speaker 1: dealing with somebody. Even once children have language, as you

460
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: know aging parents do, you're kind of dealing with somebody

461
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: who's it's like they don't have a fully formed prefrontal

462
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: cortex anymore, and so you are like trying to speak

463
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 1: three different languages at once, and that is really tough.

464
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 1: And I found myself all the time going to the

465
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: healthcare professionals and being like, I need some guidance. What

466
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 1: are we looking at here? Have I got two weeks

467
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: to prepare my family for this or two months, And

468
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: by the end I had been white knuckling for so

469
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: long and I think that's something that we all do,

470
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: but particularly women.

471
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: They will say it's.

472
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: Fine, I can do anything for two more weeks, but

473
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: then it's two more months, and then it's two more months,

474
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 1: and you've already been white knuckling for six months by

475
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: this point. And we're so bad at waiving the white flag,

476
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,239
Speaker 1: we really are, and we really need to wave it

477
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 1: why before we're on our knees. And so I suppose

478
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: you know, these are just a few of the layers

479
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: of complexity that are piling onto you as you've stepped

480
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: to the top of the tree, and all of a sudden,

481
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: this person that you probably would have gone to for advice,

482
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: your mum, your dad, they'll know they've bought a house,

483
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 1: solder car, bought some shares, navigated a divorce. They're not

484
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: there anymore. And it is so disc bobulating. It's like

485
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 1: you're you feel like a little chick, like out of

486
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 1: the nest.

487
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 2: Again.

488
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 3: For me, it was the trick of like suddenly realizing,

489
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 3: oh shit, so I'm just making this up as I

490
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: go along, and it seems to be working out. But

491
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 3: that means that they've been making it up as they

492
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 3: go along.

493
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: What yes, I thought they were reincharge.

494
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,239
Speaker 3: No, they just confidently chose and went I'm just going

495
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 3: to do this exactly. Like that's kind of how things unlocked.

496
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 3: I do want to get to the white knucklelye on

497
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 3: your knees part, but they would be remiss to not

498
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: talk about this. But so, the system is what it

499
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 3: is in Australia. It's not a perfect system, but holy moly,

500
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 3: it is way better than many, many, many, many other countries.

501
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: It's a superpower that we have, right, But it does

502
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 3: rely on the patient to connect the dots. And if

503
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 3: you don't know that as a patient, you'll be sitting

504
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 3: around for six months wondering why the phone hasn't right

505
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 3: because I'm waiting for a specialist to call. The appointments

506
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 3: go to the person who calls. All right, So what

507
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 3: would you have to say to people about advocating for

508
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: themselves firstly, and then advocating for a child or somebody

509
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 3: they're caring when it comes to the Australian healthcare system?

510
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: I love this question, so I think about it.

511
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: I say that like you've been asked it before, and

512
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 3: here I'm thinking that I'm no, I've come up with

513
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 3: something cool.

514
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: Let me tell you why I love it because I

515
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: totally talk out on healthcare system stuff and it's not

516
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: usually the things that people want to talk to me about.

517
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 2: That's why I love it.

518
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 3: But this is the stuff that people. Yes, your lens

519
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: to this issue is through caring for your own father.

520
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: But people who are listening, you know, they've got a

521
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 3: kid who's like, oh, hang on, there's a you know,

522
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 3: there's a bit of a speech thing going on here,

523
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 3: and I've got to get a friendly them release and

524
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 3: they've got to hang on. That means I've got to

525
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 3: get two of these and one of those and I've

526
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 3: got to go see that person. I can't get in there.

527
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 3: It's seven months. It's just somewhat closer. There's a nithissist

528
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:50,959
Speaker 3: bills that hang on, that's not coming away with the

529
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 3: what yes, you know, it's so trying to get your

530
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 3: kid to say, yeah, yeah, that's right.

531
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

532
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: And I'm still navigating the system now, got a neurodivergent child.

533
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: We've just had all of those diagnoses, so I am

534
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm still navigating the system. And so look, I second you.

535
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: We have one of the best healthcare systems in the

536
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: world and it's complicated and challenging to navigate. So the

537
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: more health literate we are, the better off we are.

538
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: I like an eye healthcare system to lego. So lego

539
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: creates the blocks. They're all designed to fit together. There's

540
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: different colors and shapes and sizes. You are the person

541
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: creating the design based on your diagnosis, your prognosis, your age,

542
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: your stage where you live, the services available to you.

543
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: So it's your job to make them fit together in

544
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: the way that you need to. So you've got primary care,

545
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 1: so people like your GP, people that you see when

546
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: you kind of got a cold or you need a

547
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: referral or.

548
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 2: A script or whatever.

549
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 1: You've got allied health the people that support them, so psychologists, psychiatrists, pharmacists,

550
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 1: all of those sort of health adjacent services. And then

551
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: you've got acute au tertiary care, which includes like specialists

552
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: and what have you. Right underneath that is like the

553
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: determinants of health, so things like education and employment and

554
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: geography and like, there's lots that go into it, right,

555
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: So even just hearing those few things, the way that

556
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: you play with your lego in Wogga Wogga is going

557
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: to be completely different to how somebody in the Eastern

558
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: suburbs of Sydney with a completely different diagnosis, how they're

559
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: going to have to put their lego together.

560
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: So you're absolutely right.

561
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: And I always say to people, your care is your responsibility.

562
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: So you need to make sure that you are on

563
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: top of your appointments, that you are on top of

564
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: your follow ups, that you are grabbing a copy of

565
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: your results. They are your results. They belong to you.

566
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: Never leave an appointment without having either get them to

567
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: print it out, get them to email it to you,

568
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: make sure that it's in your inbox, that all belongs

569
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: to you. And that really surprised me with Dad. I

570
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: would go into these appointments Dad, use the public systems. Obviously,

571
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: we have the public system and the private system. If

572
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: you have private healthcare, you have the choice of both.

573
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: If you don't have private healthcare, then you have the

574
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: public system. I kind of liken that to economy and

575
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: business class, but it's a poor analogy because the care

576
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: that you get in economy the public system is not

577
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: necessarily worse than what you would get in the private system.

578
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: You just might get a nicer.

579
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: Seat and you probably get to board first, so you

580
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: might get services more quickly. So the system is what

581
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: the system is, and it is up to us to

582
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: be able to navigate it and then advocate for our

583
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: people within it. And advocacy is really really interesting to me.

584
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: There are two key parts. I think one is being

585
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: really clear on what it is that you're advocating for,

586
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: so what the goal is, and I kind of think

587
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: about it like this. Imagine that you are at a

588
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: football match and people, the players run onto the field

589
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: and everybody's hooting and hollering, and they start passing the

590
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: ball to each other. Coming down the field, they get

591
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: to the other end and they stop and they start

592
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 1: looking around. They look really confused, and you look down

593
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: at the field and you realize that it's because there's

594
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: no goals. There's no net, there's no hoop. They don't

595
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: know where the goal is, let alone how to win

596
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: the game. So if you don't know what it is

597
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: that you're advocating for four, then you're totally lost. But

598
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: the second part of that is having the skills to

599
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: be able to deliver on that advocacy, and those are

600
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: like high order executive function skills. They're having good communication skills,

601
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: good negotiation skills, building solid relationships. You want your healthcare

602
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: providers to like you, because if they do, they'll be

603
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: more likely to go above and beyond for you when

604
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: the time comes.

605
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: A standby list does pick itself exactly.

606
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: And if you have to call Rosie on reception every morning,

607
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: every single morning and say, hey, just letting you know,

608
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: I'm still waiting for a spot on the wait list.

609
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: I'm free between two and four, exactly what i can

610
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 3: make today just.

611
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: In case anything comes up today.

612
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: Because if you spoke to Rosie six weeks ago and

613
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: she said, yeah, yeah, I'll put you on the wait list,

614
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: chances of her remembering are really slim.

615
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 3: And if you're a bastard to Rosie, not a chance

616
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: Rosie might not call you back.

617
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: Exactly. You want Rosie to adore you. You want to

618
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: go in and say, hey, Rosie, thank you so much

619
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: for squeezing me in today. That really means a lot

620
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: to me, Like know her name, thank her. They don't

621
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: get a lot of thanks. I don't know if anybody

622
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: else has noticed this, but often now you go into

623
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: an emergency department or even just into a general practice

624
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: clinic and it says like, please be kind and respectful

625
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: towards our star.

626
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 3: That's sign on the wall. It's like who comes here

627
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 3: and yells at the person behind the counter.

628
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: And it must happen all the time, right, you know?

629
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: So I would say, for people trying to navigate it,

630
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: you need to try to work with Rosie. So I say,

631
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: Rosie's telling you this just happened to me the other

632
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: day with my daughter. Let's say that she's saying that

633
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: she's got no appointments for nine months. You really need

634
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: your daughter, or your child, or your partner whatever scene

635
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: way before then. So what I would be saying to

636
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: Rosie is, hey, Rosie, let's take the appointment for in

637
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: nine months. That's great, thank you. Please, could we be

638
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: put on a wait list if anything comes up sooner?

639
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: We would love to be considered. I live ten minutes away.

640
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: I will drop anything and come so you can call

641
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: me really last minute. I'll pull my kid out of

642
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: school and we'll be here. Or I work on Wednesdays

643
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: and cannot do Wednesdays any other day. Whatever your parameters are,

644
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: give them to Rosie really nicely. Try to get her

645
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: to work with you, because and then I suppose I

646
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: would also be saying to Rosie, we really need to

647
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: be seen before. Then, Are you aware within this clinic

648
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: or anywhere else of anyone maybe who has trained more recently.

649
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: Their books aren't as full. Is there anybody else that

650
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: you know of? Do you have a list of providers?

651
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you can help me with?

652
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: And if you're lucky and Rosie is kind, she will

653
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: work with you. So let me give you this example.

654
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: Finding a psychiatrist for my daughter.

655
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: I called.

656
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: I found about a dozen online pediatric psychiatrists in Perth,

657
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: where I live. I got to about number six, and

658
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: all the first five were flat out nos, no help,

659
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: no suggestions, nowhere to go, just no books are closed

660
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: the end, goodbye. And the sixth person said to me,

661
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry our books are still closed. However, call

662
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: me back in a week and I will reassess. If

663
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: you keep please feel free to keep calling me and

664
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: give me your email address, and I'm going to email

665
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: you a list of pediatric psychiatrists in Perth so that

666
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: you can start going through them and crossing them and

667
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: not have to like hunt on Google and not sure

668
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: if I've called that one or not called that one.

669
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: That woman I never even ended up seeing somebody in

670
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: her clinic that was so helpful to me, that delivered

671
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: so much value to me. And I think that that's

672
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: the argument for being kind, using good communication skills, building

673
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: good relationships. And I'm so grateful for her because eventually,

674
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: on about the eleventh one, I did find one. I

675
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: still had to wait nine months, it still cost a

676
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: small fortune. She's still getting my daughter's name wrong in

677
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: her but whatever she's been seen, she's been diagnosed, she's

678
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: been prescribed. That's what she needed in the moment. And

679
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: that's what advocacy is. It's knowing what you're advocating for

680
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: and then having the skills to deliver.

681
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: Just a moment away from Casey to say that if

682
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 3: you are in Sydney and want to come to a

683
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 3: live gig gigs with story Club every single month October twelfth,

684
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: November seven, December nine, I'm pretty sure those are the

685
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 3: days on sale right now. Linkers in the show notes,

686
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 3: the October gig is going to be an absolute crack,

687
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 3: a huge lineup, s Truthless will be there. Speaking of which,

688
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 3: he's the man that I worked on my new book with.

689
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 3: You can get that new book right now. So what now?

690
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 3: What the linkers in the show notes for that we're

691
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 3: back with Casey Barross. In just a moment when I

692
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 3: was going through the chronic of business and pain stuff,

693
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 3: I yeah, things were really bad, really really bad, and

694
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 3: just desperate. I called the pain clinic at RPA and

695
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 3: they said, yeah, we've got nobody for like ten weeks.

696
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 3: And it was it was so catastrophic. I was the

697
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: thoughts of self harm were showing up again. I was like, oh, man,

698
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 3: I can't do this again. No no, no, no no. And

699
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 3: I said, okay, ten weeks, like you just said, look,

700
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 3: I'll take it. I'll take ten weeks. But is there

701
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 3: anything you can give me? Is there any psycho education?

702
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: Are there any videos or podcast or books or anything

703
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: you can send my way to get because ten weeks

704
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 3: is a long way when ten minutes is I can't

705
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 3: draw breath. I was doing that when the pain was

706
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 3: hitting me. What can you give me? Bless them. They

707
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 3: sent me like a couple of quick YouTube videos and

708
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 3: a few little things to read and a bit more

709
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 3: nerdy stuff around, you know, the research of which we

710
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 3: can talk about this if you like, about the effect

711
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 3: that careers can have on the pain of the patient.

712
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 3: And that alone was giving the feeler ah, they care

713
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: about me. This gives me just enough to make it

714
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 3: from here to there. What resources? What are they gonna

715
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 3: talk about in the first appointment? What are some things

716
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 3: that you recommend. I don't want to be like listening

717
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 3: to some person who's just talking at a camera on

718
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 3: YouTube for an hour and twenty minutes not tell me anything.

719
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 3: What do you recommend? What are the books that you know,

720
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 3: you recommend that they would otherwise give me on the

721
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 3: day that I can get into now. And these are

722
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 3: sort of things that you can you can do. The

723
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 3: catastrophizing of the care of stuff that blew me away

724
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 3: because that was around kids with chronic pain, and the

725
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 3: research has proven that if the care is catastrophizing about

726
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 3: the pain of the child, it increases the pain of

727
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 3: the child. It was not amazing. It was his lecture

728
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 3: at Harvard and it was apparently reputable place, you know,

729
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 3: but it blew my mind that a care they're doing

730
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 3: everything they can, but in doing everything I can and go,

731
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 3: oh no, Jenny, they're teaching Jenny, this is a terrifying,

732
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: fearful thing, and the care can actually degrade the experience

733
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 3: of the person they're caring for.

734
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: It's true, and there's this amazing research. It was a

735
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: guy called Professor James Cohen, and he's a professor of psychology,

736
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: and he was studying PTSD and he was running MRIs

737
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: on brains to see what happened for people with PTSD.

738
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 3: Postraumatic extreme disorder post traumatic strat residence imaging. Yes, so

739
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 3: that is a thing scan. Yeah, it's it's a very

740
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 3: it's one that sounds like scrill X. You're in the tube.

741
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 2: And he got exactly right.

742
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: And he had a Vietnam vet from the war come

743
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: in and he was so terrified of the noise that

744
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: he couldn't undergo the MRI.

745
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: So you need if you are having some sort of

746
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 3: joint issue. It's better than an X ray. It's you know,

747
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 3: they slice it. They can diagnose a lot of world

748
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 3: of things.

749
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: Yes, And so the researcher, James Cohen, said that his

750
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: wife could come in and hold his hand, sit on

751
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: the outside of the machine and hold his hand so

752
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: that he could undergo the test. And what he saw

753
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: on the MRI was the simple act of her holding

754
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: his hand had the greatest impact on exactly those centers

755
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: of the brain, the fear centers of the brain like,

756
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: it really calmed him down, and that wasn't specifically what

757
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: he was looking for. That was a bit of an

758
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: anomaly that she would come in and hold his hand,

759
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 1: but it made him set up a whole nother study

760
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: where he specifically wanted to see whether care could kind

761
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: of act as medicine. So he got a whole bunch

762
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,919
Speaker 1: of people to come in and have the exact same

763
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 1: thing done.

764
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 3: But this an FMR. The functional magnetivis that's the brain one, correct.

765
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: So within a functional MRI, if you apply stimulus, you'll

766
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: be able to see that light up on the scan.

767
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 1: So he set up another test and he showed people

768
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: one of two slides, one was red and one was blue,

769
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 1: and if they saw the blue slide, they were getting

770
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: no electric shock, little baby electric shock. But if they

771
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: saw the red slide, it was that there was a

772
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: twenty cent chance that they would get a small electric shock.

773
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 3: I'm assuming this is not like a sixties level experiment

774
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 3: where they really fucking did you. It's just like probably

775
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: like a bit of a tens machine tinkle, Yes.

776
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, but I suppose it was about the anticipation of.

777
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 2: Right.

778
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: Then they put them into three groups the participants into

779
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: three groups. One group came in completely on their own,

780
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: one group came in and had a complete stranger hold

781
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: their hand, and the other group came in and had

782
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: their spouse hold their hand. And what was really interesting

783
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: was in the group who didn't didn't get an electric shock,

784
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: they were much calmer, much cooler, no dramas when their

785
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: spouse was holding their hand, a little bit of an

786
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: impact when a stranger was holding their hand, and a

787
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: little bit more anxious and nervous if they were completely

788
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: on their own. But what was most interesting was that

789
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: for the people that did get the electric shock, the

790
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: pain didn't register as much in the brain for the

791
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: people who were holding their spouse's hand. And what James

792
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: Cohen ended up terming it was that it had like

793
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: a mild anesthetic effect on the person whose hand was

794
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,439
Speaker 1: being held. So even if they did get this little

795
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: baby electric shock, they didn't feel it as much as

796
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: the other people because this person that they loved dearly

797
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: was holding their hand. And that's such a beautiful kind

798
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: of analogy for how care really can be medicine.

799
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: And I think I saw that with Dad. That's why

800
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 2: those people said.

801
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: He got longer because you were around and so many

802
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: people don't have that.

803
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 3: So that's guy there. And my third metacarple. I broke

804
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 3: it snowboard in Canada in two thousand and four. I

805
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 3: was there by myself and I needed to get it repaired.

806
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 3: I had to go into surgery on the other side

807
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 3: of the world. The doctor did a nerve block, so

808
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:11,919
Speaker 3: I had my arm out like this. I was lying

809
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 3: down and the nurse was here on my right hand side,

810
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 3: and so I was waking through the whole thing. I said,

811
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 3: could you hold my hand please? And she said, yeah, sure,

812
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 3: and she held my hand. Yeah, And it made such

813
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 3: a difference. It was so lovely. You talked about being

814
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 3: on your knees and white knuckling things. When you are

815
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 3: caring for someone, you do have to care for yourself.

816
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 3: Can't pour for an empty cup, all that business there.

817
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 3: Talk to me about stones and boys, the framework around

818
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 3: your coping strategies.

819
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 1: Well, we all need coping strategies, right. Life has stuff

820
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: that requires coping. And I think that if you imagine,

821
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: whenever we do kind of swimming lessons or any kind

822
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: of water safety at the beach, people will tell you

823
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: that if somebody is drowning, or they're fearful and panicked

824
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: them sadly, what will happen is that they climb onto

825
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: the closest thing to them, which if that happens to

826
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: be another person, then the person who is trying to

827
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: save them perhaps can drown in the process.

828
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 3: Mate, I've voiced over every one of them exactly, so

829
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 3: that Harries pushes them away so he doesn't.

830
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: Get drowned, exactly.

831
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: So that's why you'll see they come up from behind

832
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 1: them and grab around their shoulders and then kind of

833
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 1: pull them backwards. So that that for that exact reason,

834
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: and that is sort of what it can feel like

835
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: when you are caring for somebody, particularly, I think somebody

836
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: who is dying, they can be panicking and trying to

837
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: climb onto whatever is steady.

838
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly.

839
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: And so you know, I think for it is so

840
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: easy for me to now sit on the other side

841
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 1: of this and say I really should have taken better

842
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: care of myself.

843
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: But I think if I had heard.

844
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: What I'm about to share, I would have been like,

845
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna send that chick a sternly worded email.

846
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: She has no idea what the pressure is like for me.

847
00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: I don't have time to take care of myself.

848
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: So I'm just going to put that little disclaimer in there,

849
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: because I know how hard this stuff is to actually implement.

850
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 2: But I started thinking about.

851
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: If you were in water that you couldn't stand in

852
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,919
Speaker 1: and somebody threw you a stone, you would sink.

853
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 2: But if somebody through your.

854
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: Boy a booie, if you're American, you would float. You

855
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 1: would float for long enough to be able to work

856
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: out what to do next. And I think for all

857
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: of us, we have not so great coping mechanisms and

858
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: so much healthier coping mechanisms. And I'd like to think

859
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: that as I get older, I get better and better

860
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: at getting rid of the unhealthy ones and better at

861
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: championing the healthy ones and the unhealthy ones. The stones,

862
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 1: the ones that weigh us down are you know, things

863
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: like drinking too much alcohol, taking illicit drugs, having sex

864
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: with strangers, buying too much stuff online that we don't need,

865
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: all of you know, smoking, vaping, sitting too much, eating

866
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: too much.

867
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 3: Australians lost twenty three billion dollars on poker machines in

868
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 3: the three months to June of this year. Wow three billion.

869
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 3: That is ninety days, a million dollars an hour. Oh

870
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 3: my gosh, I slapping the pain away, right.

871
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: And and you know, for people who aren't gamblers, doom scrolling,

872
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: same thing, exactly the same thing. Like your brain is

873
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: lighting up like the slots when you are, you know,

874
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: constantly feeding it.

875
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 3: Not quite enough.

876
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 2: Yeah that's right, not quite there.

877
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, Scrolls, I'm sure I see you somewhere.

878
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 2: Damn you, infinite scroll whoever came up with that. Honestly, Oh,

879
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: they're regretful.

880
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 3: They're in the documentary.

881
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 2: That's the worst thing.

882
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. That's right, it's true, fair enough.

883
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: So so stones.

884
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: You know, they're they're pretty obvious, they're the thing, but

885
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: they're the things that we think make us feel better

886
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: in the moment I need a little bit of escape.

887
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: And you know, for me, one of my famous stones

888
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,919
Speaker 1: was alcohol. During that time, my dad and I love

889
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 1: to have a Campari soda together. It was like a

890
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: moment of cheers of like you're still here. I'm still here,

891
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: We're still here. Everything's okay.

892
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 2: And in the moment it felt good, like what I deserved.

893
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: I felt like I deserved a parade after getting through

894
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 1: one day with small children and an aging father, So

895
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: you know what was one little campari, So it's gonna hurt.

896
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 2: And then I suppose.

897
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: On the flip side of that is boys the things

898
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 1: that lift you up. And I wish I could sit

899
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: here and say here's the silver bullet, And unfortunately it's

900
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: the same old, unsexy stuff that has always lifted us up.

901
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: Eating well, taking care of our mental health, having some

902
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 1: kind of mindfulness practice or some kind of moment of pause,

903
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: making sure that we're not, you know, doing all of

904
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: those negative things, and not drinking too much, staying really

905
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: connected to our friends and our family. Those really are

906
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 1: the things that, sadly, that do they lift us up.

907
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: You know, there's no pill, there's no potion. There's certainly

908
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: pills and potions that can help, but generally speaking, it's

909
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: the un sexy, boring ways of looking after ourselves. And

910
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: I know for a fact that there's no way that

911
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: I could have, you know, pulled on my sneakers and

912
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 1: gone to the gym and done an hour long workout

913
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: like some days.

914
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: That just wasn't possible. But what is possible is.

915
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: That I could have put on my sneakers and run

916
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: up and down Dad's stairs twice. That I could have done,

917
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: and I wish, I wish, I really do wish that

918
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: I had done a better job of doing those using

919
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: the boys more because you know, I quit alcohol about

920
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: eighteen months after Dad had passed away, and you know

921
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: it took me till I was forty. It's like, hands down,

922
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: the best thing that I have ever done, Like somebody

923
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 1: switched my TV from black and white in living color.

924
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: And all of that said, I understand that when you

925
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: are in the trenches of caring for someone, it might

926
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: not be the right time for you to overhaul something

927
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: or change something. You need to lean on what you

928
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: need to lean on. But the honest truth is that

929
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: if you go down, then there's nobody left to do

930
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: the care. Like we have to have to do a

931
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: better job of care for the care.

932
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 3: You only have so much to look after your own self.

933
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 3: You're immediately halving that because you're looking out another person.

934
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 3: And every one of those things you've just described will

935
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 3: deplete your ability to function properly. For no matter how

936
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 3: good or about it makes you feel, it's going to

937
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 3: every one of those has been dig documented to be

938
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 3: not good as far as trying to get to outcomes

939
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 3: that you want, and so you're already operating on fifty

940
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 3: percent capacity minimum. If there's other kids involved, youve probably

941
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 3: got about ten percent left for you if you're going

942
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 3: to fuck with that ten percent by and you said

943
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 3: Arkampari couple, Yeah exactly, because you don't count. You don't

944
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 3: count the shots that you have in between you and order.

945
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 3: You count the extra tub of ice cream that you

946
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 3: have after you've already eaten Issert because I'm sitting here

947
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 3: watching another episode of CSI, you know, because I'm just

948
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 3: spitading time for myself.

949
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 2: That's right, this is my reward.

950
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 3: It's midnight and now it's one, and someone's going to

951
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 3: be awake in two hours upset with something, especially got

952
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 3: little kids. Yes, yeah, Eventually it's going to run out

953
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 3: on everybody and it's all going to fall to pieces,

954
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 3: particularly if you're the one that's looking after it. It

955
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 3: can happen. It didn't happen to you because you were here,

956
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 3: but it can happen. That people sometimes can define themselves

957
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 3: by this role, and there can be a bit of

958
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 3: I'm not saying Munchausen, but a bit of martyrdom about it,

959
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 3: which can It's seductive because it justifies well, of course

960
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 3: I'm upset because I've got this and you've got that,

961
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 3: and they haven't called me back in six months and

962
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 3: I can't get an a point with a pediatric on

963
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 3: college just or whatever. Yes, and that can lead to

964
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,479
Speaker 3: a justification of poor behavior. But what can often happen

965
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 3: is then that it just makes everything worse. It feels

966
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 3: right because you're upset, you're angry. Somebody loves in trouble.

967
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 3: They might not get out of it. You don't know

968
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 3: what that's going to look like. Talk to me about

969
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 3: the idea of going to part of that care being

970
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 3: perhaps therapy. You're going to talk to someone that isn't

971
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 3: a friend, someone that might be able to see, Oh,

972
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 3: you are staring out the windows, just smoking, Sicki's all day,

973
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 3: not great. Let's just maybe do that for maybe twenty

974
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 3: minutes tops, and then maybe go for a walk in

975
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 3: the yard you're looking at. Let's just start with that.

976
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 3: Tell me about the idea of seeking therapy or trying

977
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 3: to get another perspective on what you're going on when

978
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 3: you are dealing with a situation like this.

979
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: Yes, and I must say that care can become your identity.

980
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: I do think that that happened to me, and I

981
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: did wear my care maybe not as a badge, but

982
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: something a bit more subtle, like a sticker, like a

983
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 1: sticker of honor. And you know, there's often, if you're

984
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: lucky as I was, there's a lot of love and

985
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: care coming your way. People are worried about you, they're

986
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: checking in on you. And one of the things that

987
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: tends to happen to care is when they are on

988
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: the other side of caring, maybe their person is no

989
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: longer with us, maybe their person got better, whatever it

990
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: might be. When they're on the other side, they tend

991
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: to feel quite kind of purposeless and rudderless because they

992
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: were doing this really purposeful, meaningful care.

993
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 3: Look, decisions need to be made all day long.

994
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, and then all of a sudden it's

995
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: free stimulating exactly, all of.

996
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 2: A sudden, they're not. And so, you know, I think.

997
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 1: We need to do a better job of in terms

998
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: of policy and reward and making sure that carers are

999
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: like really really well championed and really really well supported.

1000
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: And I know the exact type of people that you're

1001
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: talking about, and that they do kind of use care

1002
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 1: as a bit of a badge.

1003
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 3: Of honor, but there's also patience. It's also people. And

1004
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 3: when I speak about mental health in the in the

1005
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 3: you know, in public, when I did public speaking and

1006
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 3: stuff like this, I always talk about like, it's your

1007
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 3: job to take responsibility for it. Yes, it's your job

1008
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 3: to go to the doctors, it's your job to take

1009
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 3: the beds, it's your job to do the things they

1010
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 3: tell you to do. You don't get to say, oh,

1011
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm rude because I've got this. You just

1012
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 3: have to deal with it.

1013
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 2: No, Yes, that's right.

1014
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 3: You are a human that lives in a society and

1015
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 3: you need to take responsibility for what you've got going on.

1016
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 3: But people may not realize that's what I'm saying. So

1017
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:08,959
Speaker 3: that's getting help for yourself can be I don't feel

1018
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 3: maybe people maybe say that they're not worth it, or

1019
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 3: they don't have the time it. Certainly finances can be hard. Yes,

1020
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 3: where's the value? Where do you find the value in

1021
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 3: making sure you're getting some sort of check in with

1022
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 3: a therapist or psych along this journey.

1023
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: I think there's huge value in that. And you mentioned

1024
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: a good friend, and good friends actually can play a

1025
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: really powerful role if you choose the right one somebody

1026
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: who is who knows when they're out of their depth

1027
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: and are able to say to you, I don't think

1028
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 1: I'm the right person to support you on this. I

1029
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: think you actually need professional help like I did. You

1030
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: can lean on people that you know specifically have been

1031
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 1: through that thing, so they've actually got some lived experience.

1032
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: And the reason that I say both of those things

1033
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,240
Speaker 1: up front is that we have a real equity problem

1034
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: in this country in that if you or I are

1035
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: struggling with our mental health, we have the knowledge, the

1036
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 1: wherewithal the get up and go that it's our responsibility,

1037
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 1: and we have the resources to facilitate that. And we

1038
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: will call six psychologists until we find one that can

1039
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: fit us in, and we will call again to see

1040
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: if we can get in sooner. And if we get

1041
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: really desperate, we know that Beyond Blue or Lifeline or

1042
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,439
Speaker 1: one of those services is available to us. And I'm

1043
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: super mindful that not everybody across this country has those things.

1044
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: Ye that don't have the literacy, that don't have the knowledge,

1045
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: that don't have the impetus, and they don't have the

1046
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: resources to be able to facilitate that. To spend three

1047
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: hundred bucks seeing a psychologist, and as anybody knows who's

1048
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: seen one, you're going to spend the first two or

1049
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: three sessions just downloading all of your story so that

1050
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: they understand.

1051
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,879
Speaker 3: Figuring out of the right person for you as well,

1052
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 3: do we click here exactly? You got to audition them

1053
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 3: or date them like Digui we audition them definitely.

1054
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,439
Speaker 1: You've got to figure it out, definitely, and it can

1055
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: feel like the need is so immediate by the time

1056
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:53,359
Speaker 1: you're waving the white flag on your knees. I need

1057
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 1: to see someone now, and then you're having to make

1058
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: seventeen phone calls and the next one that you can

1059
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: possibly in four weeks or if you're really lucky, maybe

1060
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. And this is particularly bad for

1061
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: people who live regionally. We're very lucky we live in

1062
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,399
Speaker 1: capital cities. People who live regionally really really struggle with this.

1063
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: And we've got a few issues with telehealth. You know,

1064
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: it should be much much more inclusive, but you have

1065
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: to have seen in person the doctor in the last

1066
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: twelve months before you can then have a tellyhealth like.

1067
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 2: We've got some work to do on that front.

1068
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: So I think first of all is knowing when you

1069
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: are out of your depth and you need especially in

1070
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 1: a parent patient care relationship, you can't be everything to

1071
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: each other and that can be really hard. If you

1072
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 1: were really close to your dad or your mum, or

1073
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: it's your partner, they were the person that you used

1074
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 1: to unpack everything with and then all of a sudden

1075
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: they can't be And this is where a care team

1076
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: becomes really important. Like care truly is a team sport.

1077
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 1: You might be the captain or the coach as the

1078
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: care and your patient is your star player, let's say,

1079
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: and that analogy, but then you've got all of these

1080
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: other people, knowing who those people are, knowing how to

1081
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: access them. You know, even just going and having a

1082
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,879
Speaker 1: really good chat to your GP. If you can't get

1083
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: in to a mental health professional, just go and have

1084
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: a chat to your GP. They're really really well positioned

1085
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: to be able to support you. We have things like

1086
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 1: Griefline in Australia, so for people who are experiencing grief,

1087
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: knowing that those services are available and then having the

1088
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 1: gumption to pick up the phone and say, hey, I

1089
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:27,800
Speaker 1: need help.

1090
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 2: Four of the hardest words for any of us to say.

1091
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 3: I was talking about this yesterday for some reason, when

1092
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 3: it's and because I went through this when it's me,

1093
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 3: I don't want to ask for help to deal with

1094
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 3: this problem. Let's say I'm driving my family to the

1095
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 3: Gold Coast right and we get a flat tire. Oh,

1096
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 3: we'll pull over because it is no longer safe for

1097
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 3: me because I can't I keep leaning to the left.

1098
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 3: This is bad. Hold on, guys, which could pull over? Here?

1099
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 3: Get out what I don't have the tools? Where did

1100
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 3: the wheeljack? Kids have been playing with something? The jackson

1101
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 3: in the car anymore? Fuck mate, you get on the phone.

1102
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 3: We're not going to go anywhere. Let's move away from

1103
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 3: the road, guys, Let's keep ourselves safe until we've sorted

1104
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 3: this out. Yes, that's how you deal with that problem,

1105
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 3: and anyone if not at just let me handle it

1106
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 3: my way. I'm just going to drive all the way

1107
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 3: over the Goal Coast until I'm just flying sparksan fuck.

1108
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,280
Speaker 2: No, no one would do that exactly.

1109
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 3: But for some reason, that's what we do when it

1110
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 3: comes to a mental health. But getting ahead of that,

1111
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 3: as you mentioned, not in six months when you need it.

1112
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 3: Like I would say, if you find yourself in a

1113
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 3: situation like you'd find yourself where I am now in

1114
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 3: a caring role. I am you know. The way that

1115
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 3: my life was going to play out is no longer

1116
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 3: what it is. And I am understanding that there is

1117
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 3: an escalation of intensity in this, particularly if it's something

1118
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 3: that's terminal. I understand that at that point you're not

1119
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 3: only getting their care lined up, get some care for

1120
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 3: yourself and pop it in there, pop it in the

1121
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 3: calendar as well. Get in there, Get in there now,

1122
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 3: not six months seven months from now, when you are,

1123
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 3: you know, on sports bed at six in the morning,

1124
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 3: Jimmy's bringing all day and night.

1125
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

1126
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: It's wild to me how bad we are at anticipating, especially,

1127
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 1: you know. And this is where a good social worker

1128
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: at a hospital or something is worth their weight in

1129
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: gold if they can say to you, I anticipate that

1130
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: there are some stormy seas ahead regardless of how this

1131
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: plays out. Don't worry about the prognosis or like the

1132
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 1: timeline or any of that. Regardless this is going to

1133
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 1: be really tough six months or twelve months or whatever

1134
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: it is. My advice to you is to engage with

1135
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: service X now and get them in play. And that

1136
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: is where you know, and again It comes back to that,

1137
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: like care is a team sport, and social workers can

1138
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: play a really important role in that, particularly in hospitals.

1139
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: They're incredible connectors to services, and there are services available

1140
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: to us.

1141
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 3: But you might not realize it's there if you don't

1142
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 3: ask what else is here? Is there someone I can

1143
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 3: speak to about diet? Is I don't I've only ever

1144
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 3: cooked this person, but now it looks like because their

1145
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 3: bowers are working differently. What are some things I should

1146
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 3: and shouldn't feed them? Is there a dietitian I need

1147
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 3: to speak to, like or not even to know that?

1148
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know what this looks like. I've

1149
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,280
Speaker 3: never looked after someone. I'm moving them to my house.

1150
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 3: Do I need a ramp? I don't know? Is there

1151
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 3: someone I can talk to about this? I don't want

1152
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:21,479
Speaker 3: to be making it up and make the wrong call.

1153
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 3: There are people in those places whose job it is

1154
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 3: to come and help you, But if you don't ask

1155
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 3: for it, everyone's busy. Yes, systems a stretched no matter what.

1156
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,760
Speaker 3: It's a public system. It's not perfect, but it's freaking amazing.

1157
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 3: So it is on you to kind of ask is

1158
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 3: there more that not? As in like gimme, gimme everything.

1159
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 3: It's like, what else can I Years ago when I

1160
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 3: first got taught about how to negotiate, it's like, as

1161
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 3: long as you ask for something that they've already got,

1162
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 3: it's not hard for them to say yes. You know.

1163
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 3: The example was the company that God was working for

1164
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 3: that they spend three million dollars a year on flights,

1165
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 3: and this person was working in Singapore and said, part

1166
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 3: of my deal, can I get you know, two return

1167
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 3: flights twice a year back to Sydney so I can

1168
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 3: see my parents. They're like, what's an extra twelve hundred

1169
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 3: bucks and three million? Of course changes. He is complete

1170
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 3: if he's going to say yes to the job or not,

1171
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 3: because it's no big He can get home twice a

1172
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 3: year at least to see his folks. But it was

1173
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 3: nothing for them to say yes. So what can you

1174
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 3: ask for that's already around yes, that you can get

1175
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 3: access to. It's on you. You're you're the executive producer

1176
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 3: of how this exactly, how this works?

1177
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 2: Exactly?

1178
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 1: It comes back to you're in charge. No, there's nobody

1179
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: else in charge running the show.

1180
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 2: It's you.

1181
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 3: During this conversation we have, you know, we cannot forget that.

1182
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 3: Over the course of your experience your father died, tell

1183
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 3: me about how preemptive grief can start to play a

1184
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 3: role in the way that you are able to show

1185
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 3: up and be present in those moments.

1186
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 2: Oh, preemptive grief.

1187
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 1: I thought that it was a bit of a gift, actually,

1188
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 1: because the opposite is grief, grief as in the phone

1189
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 1: call that says sorry, they're on the golf course and

1190
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: they're gone. So I always thought the preemptive grief would

1191
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: be a bit of a gift. If anything, it was

1192
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: going to be, you know, give me a little bit

1193
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 1: of time to kind of get used to the idea,

1194
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: And in some ways I think it did do that,

1195
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: and nothing could have prepared me for the end, I think.

1196
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 1: You know, Dad always said that people are very drawn

1197
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 1: to the profound birth and death, and I think is right.

1198
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 1: Death watching somebody die is a profound experience, something that

1199
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: you are forever change for having had that experience. And

1200
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: do you know what's really interesting is that my dad

1201
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: signed up for voluntary assisted dying and we.

1202
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 2: Had the pharmacists come to our house.

1203
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: They bring over two kits, two red toolboxes, like they're

1204
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 1: coming to fix the sink, and in one of them

1205
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: is like a dummy kit of the real deal, and

1206
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: in the other is the real deal. And so for

1207
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 1: people who don't know, for voluntary sister die and you

1208
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: can do self administered or practitioner administered, but you have

1209
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: to choose. That's not something that you just get to

1210
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: flip and decide on the day. And so they come

1211
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: over to your house and they make you do a

1212
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: dress rehearsal with the dummy kit where they make the

1213
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: person who is going to consume eventually the liquid, they

1214
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: make the mix the liquid and then drink the liquid

1215
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: in front of all of you as though it's going

1216
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 1: to end their life. It is the strangest experience I

1217
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: think I've ever been through, like a dress rehearsal for

1218
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: ending your life.

1219
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 3: It is really a very clever barrier to entry, because

1220
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 3: if you can't do it yourself, you are not competent

1221
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 3: to make the choice. You have to be able to

1222
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 3: still be swallowing, because there's all sort of cognitive things

1223
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 3: that have to be working for your swallowing reflex to

1224
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 3: work exactly. So it's a very clever point at which

1225
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 3: you can do that. It is and I listened to

1226
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 3: that whole Denti podcast about it, and it was extraordinary, extraordinary. Yeah,

1227
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 3: I'm so happy that it's here in Australia now.

1228
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: Same and I was always a real advocate for it.

1229
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: I was so happy that it was available to Dad.

1230
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 1: It felt like a get out of jail free card

1231
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 1: that was in our pocket, so that anytime he wanted

1232
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 1: to he could.

1233
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 2: Just hit that.

1234
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 3: So they left the Red Kit behind.

1235
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 2: They left the Red Kit behind. Wow, did he have

1236
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 2: that high?

1237
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 3: Did he have that thing of like just knowing it's there?

1238
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that gave him some real comfort. And interestingly,

1239
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: I remember before they'd even left our house, he was like,

1240
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 1: I need to go and have a little lie down.

1241
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 1: He was really sleepy at that point, and I remember

1242
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: looking at them and trying to say with my eyes,

1243
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 1: because he was still in the room, I think we've

1244
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 1: kind of missed the boat on this for a whole

1245
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 1: range of reasons. Like you could see that he was

1246
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: really sort of on his way out. And one of

1247
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 1: the hardest conversations I've ever had to have with him

1248
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 1: was that I'm nervous that the window of opportunity is

1249
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: closing and you are going to have your choice taken

1250
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 1: away from you, and I feel that perhaps we should

1251
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 1: take the time now to switch to practitioner administered, as in,

1252
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 1: have somebody come over and inject him. Because once you,

1253
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: as you said, lose your swallow reflex, if you drink

1254
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: water and cough, no, biggie, if you're drinking the liquid

1255
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 1: that's going to end your life could be a really

1256
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 1: big deal.

1257
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 3: Right.

1258
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 2: You don't want to go halfway on something like that.

1259
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 1: And so they were some of the hardest conversations I've

1260
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 1: ever had to had to have. I remember going to

1261
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,959
Speaker 1: the GP and his GP saying have you said a date?

1262
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 1: And him saying yes, and telling her what the date was,

1263
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 1: and I think it was about two and a half

1264
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: weeks away at that point, and she said, I don't

1265
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,920
Speaker 1: think you're going to make it to that date, and

1266
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 1: seeing that land on him, Like talk about preemptive grief, right,

1267
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 1: like you are. Sometimes you have three mini deaths by lunchtime.

1268
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: In these situations, it's the death of their ability to

1269
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: walk to breakfast, the death of their ability to even

1270
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 1: want breakfast. You know, it's like this series years of

1271
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 1: teeny tiny little deaths. And I will say that he

1272
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: never ended up using the voluntary assisted dying. And as

1273
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 1: much as I am so glad that we have it,

1274
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: and I think it's a wonderful, wonderful gift to so

1275
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 1: many people, the thought of having a day and time

1276
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 1: in my diary that where my dad would die was

1277
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 1: so anxiety inducing for me. But I never said any

1278
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: of that to him. I was like, Okay, here we go.

1279
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: If we're going, vad, we go VAD. And I just

1280
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:31,400
Speaker 1: pushed it all down and would have continued to and

1281
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 1: would have been in the room and made it as

1282
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 1: beautiful as he wanted, because that's what he wanted and

1283
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 1: it's not my rodeo. But I was so glad and

1284
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 1: grateful when the universe just took it out of our

1285
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: hands and he died at home at a time that

1286
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: wasn't in my diary, in a really beautiful way, and

1287
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 1: I was able to be there and hold his hand

1288
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 1: and everything that I wanted, and I was really glad

1289
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: for that. So yes, I'm so glad that we had

1290
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 1: the choice, and I'm also glad that that's not how

1291
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: it played out for us, because thinking about going through that,

1292
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 1: having watched the dress rehearsal, was actually really anxiety inducing.

1293
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,479
Speaker 1: So again, I think preemptive grief can be a real gift.

1294
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 1: Gives you some time to get used to the idea.

1295
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 1: You've got time to say all of the things and

1296
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: do all of the things. That's the gift of a

1297
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: poor prognosis or of a disease. You have time to

1298
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 1: do the things. And nothing could have prepared me for

1299
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: when he left.

1300
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 3: Momum would tell a story about a patient that she had,

1301
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 3: and this is before any of the stuff was available

1302
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 3: in Australia. It was an old Dutch guy. He was

1303
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 3: just like, yeah, I'm done with this. Invited everybody around.

1304
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 3: He was you know, he was competent, but couldn't walk,

1305
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 3: couldn't toilet himself, Like, didn't everything hurt all the time,

1306
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 3: Invited everyone around, all the round kids that had this

1307
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 3: massive lunch, and after that he just stopped eating and drinking.

1308
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 3: And three days later he was gone, Yeah that was it.

1309
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 3: He was like, and he let him all know. He says,

1310
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 3: I just want you to know. I'm just you know,

1311
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 3: I've had a great time. You got he was in

1312
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 3: his eighties. I've had a great time. You've been great,

1313
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 3: but I'm ready. This has been a lot. Wow, thanks

1314
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 3: for coming. You've been awesome and that was it?

1315
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 2: How powerful?

1316
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, because so much of your power is taken away

1317
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 3: at that point. Right to be in that situation where

1318
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 3: I don't know, I get to make a call here yes,

1319
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 3: and I get to be I can choose, you know.

1320
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 3: So I'm grateful that we we do have that. There's

1321
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 3: a part of grieving that you talk about. There's stages

1322
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 3: of grief. We talked about bargaining earlier. Making meaning is

1323
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 3: an important part of grieving. You know. How did that

1324
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 3: play into this for you?

1325
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, lots of us will

1326
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 1: be familiar with the Elizabeth Kopler Ross model, and it's

1327
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 1: that dab DA is the acronym so denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.

1328
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:08,120
Speaker 1: And I think we think that when we are either

1329
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: the person who is going through the thing or the

1330
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 1: person watching and caring for the person going through the thing,

1331
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: that we will move through those sort of sequentially or

1332
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 1: in some kind of linear sessions.

1333
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 3: By the way, did you there you go? Lisa's im said,

1334
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 3: first talk to me about it, Yes, there you go.

1335
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: And I do think it's a really I think it's

1336
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 1: a really powerful model. It's and I think she herself

1337
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 1: would say these were never intended as stages. That was

1338
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 1: never how it was presented. It's just how the media

1339
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 1: picked up on it and reported on it. And David Kesler,

1340
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 1: one of her colleagues, has since added this this kind

1341
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 1: of sixth stage, and I think it's that word stage

1342
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 1: that's probably causing some confusion, but that adding meaning having

1343
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 1: some kind of reason for this experience, for that person's life,

1344
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 1: and finding what that meaning is.

1345
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 2: And I feel very lucky.

1346
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 1: I feel like I've always written about the hard things

1347
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 1: that I was going through.

1348
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 2: I've built a.

1349
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: Career out of that, and I feel so lucky that

1350
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 1: I got to capture this experience for myself, for dad,

1351
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 1: for my family, but also for other people to kind

1352
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: of share in and learn from, and so for me.

1353
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 1: You know, there's this beautiful death walker. Her name is

1354
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 1: Zenith Farrago. She's a really famous death educator in Australia.

1355
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: And I remember her saying to me, we kind of

1356
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 1: try to quantify somebody's life, as in, if somebody died

1357
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 1: at sixty sixty eight, my dad was sixty nine sixty eight.

1358
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 2: Gosh, how weird is that? Like kind of even.

1359
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 1: Wild he was he was sixty eight he was sixty eight,

1360
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 1: and he was almost sixty nine. He really wanted to

1361
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:56,280
Speaker 1: be sixty nine when he died, and he almost almost

1362
01:06:56,280 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: got there. And you know, when when we look at

1363
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 1: like the meaning that he was able to apply to

1364
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 1: his life. What Zenath was talking about about quantifying a

1365
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 1: life is that who's to say that sixty eight is

1366
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: not enough? I say it's not enough because I want

1367
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 1: to dad around for twenty more years. But what she

1368
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 1: says is that when you do that, and whether somebody

1369
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,480
Speaker 1: died at sixty eight, forty eight, twenty eight, eighteen eight,

1370
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 1: it's like those things get progressively sadder, you know, the

1371
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 1: younger somebody is because they should have had more time.

1372
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: And she says that what we do when we do

1373
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 1: that is that we take away the fact that their

1374
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: life was their life. And if you and this is

1375
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 1: much easier to apply when people are older than it

1376
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 1: is to children. And I don't purport to understand what

1377
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:49,320
Speaker 1: that's like. I haven't been through that, what I imagine would

1378
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 1: be the most awful pain of all, even losing a child.

1379
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: But what you do is you take away everything they

1380
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 1: did have and everything that they did achieve, and everything

1381
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 1: that was the meaning of their life and the birthday

1382
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:05,000
Speaker 1: candles that they did get to blow out, and the

1383
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 1: times that they brought joy and made you cry laughing,

1384
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: And so I have tried really hard to hold onto that.

1385
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 3: Now.

1386
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 1: Actually, yes, I feel pissed off that my kids don't

1387
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:18,320
Speaker 1: have their papa and that you know that I didn't

1388
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 1: get Dad for more time, but I got almost forty

1389
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: years with my dad. So I tried really hard to

1390
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 1: hold on to that and to make sure that I

1391
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 1: don't that I don't do human disservice in the you know,

1392
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 1: who's to say that his sixty eight and magical, amazing

1393
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 1: almost sixty nine years weren't full of meaning and purpose

1394
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: and vibrancy and what he brought to the world. And

1395
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 1: so I try really hard to hold on to that.

1396
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: I suppose in terms of and everybody will make their

1397
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 1: own meaning, and you know, this book is my meaning,

1398
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 1: my interpretation of what Dad and I went through, and

1399
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: other people will have that this.

1400
01:08:57,080 --> 01:08:58,680
Speaker 3: Book is the phone call that you made on the

1401
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:02,679
Speaker 3: day for people who don't have that person in their life. Yes, oh,

1402
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 3: here's someone who's been through this experience. Ah, let me

1403
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 3: see what does this book say about should I go?

1404
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 3: Should I stay there. It is. That's the thing that

1405
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 3: you've given. Speaking of things you've given, how has this

1406
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 3: changed the way you think about the people in your

1407
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 3: life that might step in to care for you. Let's say,

1408
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 3: I mean I wrote a motorcycle here. Who knows how

1409
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 3: I'm going to get home? All right? Everyone's expecting me

1410
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:29,840
Speaker 3: to show up at home fine and safe in a

1411
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 3: couple of hours from now. I can't control the roads.

1412
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 3: Who knows what what happens. They might not expect to

1413
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 3: become a carer, but by tonight they might be. I

1414
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 3: hope they're not going to be. But you know, there's

1415
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 3: a possibility that it is true.

1416
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:42,720
Speaker 2: Anything can happen at any time.

1417
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:45,679
Speaker 3: It's true. I am fine with getting on my motorcycle.

1418
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 3: Was I have locked away absolute, crystal clear instructions on

1419
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 3: what happens. You talk to me about the importance of

1420
01:09:56,040 --> 01:10:00,760
Speaker 3: taking the responsibility to do that not tomorrow now.

1421
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:01,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1422
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:04,920
Speaker 1: Yes, And look, this entire segment will be a fool's

1423
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 1: advice because I admittedly have not got everything locked away,

1424
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 1: which makes me the biggest hypocrite on earth. But I

1425
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 1: want to acknowledge it because I know for so many

1426
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 1: people listening to this they'll be thinking, I've got to

1427
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:19,240
Speaker 1: get back onto that, and it's always on you to

1428
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 1: do this, but it gets bumped down for something that's

1429
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 1: more immediate or feels more important, and it is the

1430
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 1: worst decision you'll make. You know. I have spent a

1431
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:32,840
Speaker 1: long time now thinking about and writing about this exact thing,

1432
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:35,879
Speaker 1: and I always say, like, getting your legal and financial

1433
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 1: affairs wrapped up is the greatest gift that you will

1434
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 1: ever give to the people who love you, because what

1435
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 1: it is, it's packing it all away, tying it up

1436
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:45,760
Speaker 1: with a bow, putting it under the bed, and it's

1437
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 1: got a set of instructions inside so that Heaven forbid,

1438
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 1: should anything happen to you in the future, somebody just

1439
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 1: has to pull it out and they know exactly what

1440
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 1: to do. And I can say, hand on heart, Dad

1441
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:59,880
Speaker 1: had a very straightforward a state, didn't own property, very

1442
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,880
Speaker 1: very simple. Five kids just had to pull it all together,

1443
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 1: divvy it up, and that took me the better part

1444
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:09,599
Speaker 1: of a year amidst my grief and what we see,

1445
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,519
Speaker 1: or what certainly what my experience was you're climbing this

1446
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:15,000
Speaker 1: mountain of saying goodbye to them. Then you get to

1447
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:18,880
Speaker 1: the top and you're like, holy shit, there's another bigger mountain.

1448
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 1: I just didn't see it because I was too busy

1449
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:24,720
Speaker 1: climbing the first one. And that one is like, I mean,

1450
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:28,600
Speaker 1: sitting in like the DMV or the Motor Vehicle Registry,

1451
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:33,160
Speaker 1: trying to transfer vehicle licenses so that you can sell them,

1452
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:36,040
Speaker 1: and going to the bank and taking things to the

1453
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: pharmacy to be witnessed and like that stuff whilst you're

1454
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:42,800
Speaker 1: grieving is so rough. It is the last thing that

1455
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 1: you want to be doing, and it often has to

1456
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 1: be done in the time directly after somebody has passed away.

1457
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:52,519
Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, the choices that are in the a Audrey

1458
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 3: and I both have this is that for whatever reason

1459
01:11:55,320 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 3: she or I become noncompetent yet are still alive. Or

1460
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 3: there's a whole lot of instructions there as well. Great,

1461
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:05,599
Speaker 3: which is also superport because I've seen firsthand how that

1462
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 3: can save the relationship of siblings completely. Oh yeah, because say,

1463
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:17,599
Speaker 3: for example, you know there's three kids and the person

1464
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:20,760
Speaker 3: is not competent, and there's an option of surgery, but

1465
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 3: it's very risky, and say two kids say, I know,

1466
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:25,160
Speaker 3: I don't know what the surgery. One kid says, but

1467
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 3: we have to whatever happens happens. You know, twenty years

1468
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 3: later you wanted them to die, like if you just

1469
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 3: get to look at a piece of paper and go. Actually,

1470
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:37,600
Speaker 3: they said, don't give us anything. Saved it completely.

1471
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:38,080
Speaker 2: That's right.

1472
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:42,479
Speaker 1: And care is a breeding ground for resentment within families.

1473
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 1: You're so right, and so like here for people listening.

1474
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 3: Here a lot brothers just like five siblings, like that's

1475
01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:49,879
Speaker 3: a yeah, and wat of mountains.

1476
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:53,759
Speaker 1: My family tree is like an explosion in a pen factory.

1477
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,679
Speaker 1: I've got one ten years older. We've all got different mothers.

1478
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 1: Dad was a bit of a free spirit, shall we say,

1479
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 1: And so one is ten years older, and the others

1480
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 1: are little like they were seventeen nineteen and twenty three

1481
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 1: when Dad died. So they're little like the barely adults,

1482
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:14,679
Speaker 1: just sort of trying to live their lives.

1483
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:19,800
Speaker 2: And you know, I think this stuff. I always say.

1484
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:21,880
Speaker 1: Used to say to Dad, hard hat for hard chat,

1485
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 1: and what that meant was and I would kind of

1486
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:25,720
Speaker 1: mind putting a hat on and it would be like

1487
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:29,360
Speaker 1: Dad time. It was essentially me stepping into like executor talk,

1488
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:31,439
Speaker 1: so like we need to talk about this hard thing.

1489
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 1: And that was powerful for him. Because it was a

1490
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 1: segue like, Okay, we're not gooey anymore. I need to

1491
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 1: think strategically or financially or whatever. And for me, I

1492
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:44,599
Speaker 1: was able to say, I need to talk about this

1493
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:47,040
Speaker 1: really hard thing. There's no cool language around it. I

1494
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 1: just need to be able to lay it out on

1495
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:50,480
Speaker 1: the table. But to come back to the non negotiable.

1496
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:54,200
Speaker 1: So here's like the hit list your will, which includes

1497
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:57,599
Speaker 1: an executor. My advice on an executor would be, don't

1498
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:00,840
Speaker 1: make it somebody who will be grieving you deep. Make

1499
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:02,840
Speaker 1: it somebody that you love, that you trust, that will

1500
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:05,599
Speaker 1: do it as a gift to your family, not the

1501
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:09,360
Speaker 1: person closest to you. That's just that's just my opinion.

1502
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:09,800
Speaker 3: Right.

1503
01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:13,599
Speaker 1: Then your power of attorney, so enduring power of attorney.

1504
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: So for people listening, power of attorney you can act

1505
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 1: on your behalf whilst you're still alive, but say you're

1506
01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 1: on a plane and uncontactable, enduring power of attorney can

1507
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 1: act on your behalf when you aren't no longer converse

1508
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:25,640
Speaker 1: so you can't make decisions for yourself. Then you can

1509
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 1: also have enduring medical power of attorney, so they can

1510
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:31,439
Speaker 1: make medical and care decisions on your behalf. In some

1511
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 1: states that's called an enduring guardian. And then the last

1512
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:37,320
Speaker 1: piece of that is an advanced health care plan or directive,

1513
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 1: which is what you're talking about that spells out for people.

1514
01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:45,520
Speaker 1: Here are the interventions I would be happy with so CPR,

1515
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:52,599
Speaker 1: cardiopulmonary resuscitation yes, artificial breathing and feeding no. So you

1516
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 1: spell out so that, as you say, people don't have

1517
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:59,360
Speaker 1: to make those decisions. And what that does is it

1518
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:03,640
Speaker 1: just a limit dominates any confusion. It gives people absolute clarity.

1519
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:07,519
Speaker 1: And it's really interesting. What lots of the people in

1520
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:10,120
Speaker 1: that sort of intersection of healthcare and law are talking

1521
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:12,559
Speaker 1: about at the moment is like, in the future, will

1522
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:17,720
Speaker 1: you have an AI avatar of osher advocating for yourself

1523
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:20,720
Speaker 1: rather than somebody else having to do it for you,

1524
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 1: And like, it's so fraught and it's so new as

1525
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 1: an idea, But the idea is that you get what

1526
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:30,920
Speaker 1: you want, not what they think you would want. That's

1527
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 1: the whole point of having those things in place.

1528
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:37,720
Speaker 3: My recent experience with AI confabulation of databases would leave

1529
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:39,760
Speaker 3: me to think that that's not a good idea right now.

1530
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:44,240
Speaker 3: I agree, because my experience with llms has been to.

1531
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:46,760
Speaker 3: I just want to please the person that's asking me

1532
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:50,120
Speaker 3: this question. So there's makeup answers that aren't real. You

1533
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 3: hang on a c I can't for me. Oh, you're

1534
01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:54,120
Speaker 3: right to call me out on that. I'm sorry. It's like, yeah,

1535
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 3: you're a supercomputer. There's wasting a billion tons of energy

1536
01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:58,559
Speaker 3: every time I ask you a question. Come on, man,

1537
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,400
Speaker 3: supposedly on the top of it. But yeah, for now,

1538
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 3: I'll say no to that, but I understand how it

1539
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:08,679
Speaker 3: may improve over time. I'm sure you, as you just mentioned,

1540
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 3: you're looking for the you know when we asked, When

1541
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:13,519
Speaker 3: I asked you about the meaning behind this thing, I'm

1542
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:15,439
Speaker 3: sure you understand the meaning that you give to people

1543
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:19,000
Speaker 3: when you speak about this. And I'm very grateful that

1544
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 3: you have chosen to do this, and you've chosen to

1545
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:22,920
Speaker 3: come here today to have this conversation. I hope it's okay.

1546
01:16:23,280 --> 01:16:24,360
Speaker 2: Thank you, you're okay?

1547
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:26,920
Speaker 3: Have you feel all right? Yeah, okay. I'm glad. If

1548
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 3: no one's ever thought about this sort of stuff, what

1549
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 3: you've said to them today is incredibly valuable, and I'm

1550
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:33,559
Speaker 3: really grateful that you've done it. Thank you, Thanks for

1551
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:33,880
Speaker 3: coming in.

1552
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

1553
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 3: That was Casey Beurris. You can get her brand new book.

1554
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:42,640
Speaker 3: It's called Next of Kin, A Compassionate Guide to the

1555
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 3: World of Care. Fantastic conversation. It's important to talk about death,

1556
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:48,599
Speaker 3: you know. I know this. I talk about death quite

1557
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:50,479
Speaker 3: a bit and I hope that meant a lot for

1558
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:52,680
Speaker 3: you and I certainly got a lot out of that.

1559
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 3: The book is fantastic, It's really really good. I thoroughly

1560
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 3: recommend it. Thank you for listening to the show. If

1561
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 3: you know someone that could benefit from this to the show,

1562
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:02,920
Speaker 3: please let them know about it. You can subscribe and

1563
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:06,400
Speaker 3: follow and rate and like and share. That would also

1564
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:09,360
Speaker 3: really help us a lot, and buy a book that

1565
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:12,080
Speaker 3: would also really help me a lot. The linkers in

1566
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:14,080
Speaker 3: the show notes for not only so What Now What,

1567
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:16,840
Speaker 3: but also the storytelling show that I do every month

1568
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:19,040
Speaker 3: in Sydney Story Club. I'd love to see you there.

1569
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to the show.