WEBVTT - #215 Tony Abbott: Australia Has Lost Its Courage & It’s Costing us 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.240 Tony have it. Welcome to straight Talk, Mark. 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:04.120 It's wonderful to be with you. 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:07.400 You are, by the way, my mum's it sounds very 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:10.080 tried and commonplace, but my mum's favorite politician. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:12.880 Well, your mum must have been a wonderful woman. 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.160 Good start mate, Thanks very much for coming in. 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:21.560 So maybe, if possible, I don't know if many people 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:23.680 know much about you other than the fact you were 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.720 Prime Minister of the country for that matter, and there's 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.280 some instances where they remember you with you know, the 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:33.080 Budji smuggler's shirt f and the onion and I want 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:34.800 to talk about those things because they're their fun things. 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:37.760 But if we could just go back a bit, you know, 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:42.000 ideology is an important thing in the way we conduct 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.080 ourselves and our behavior, all of us, and it's also 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.280 what we tend to believe in. And our ideology I 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:51.960 think is formed largely from how we grew up influences 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:52.960 as on ask. 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.040 When we're kids, et cetera. So who's Tony Abbott the kid? 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.680 Well? I had two wonderful powers parents, my late father 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.840 my mum who's still with us at ninety two. I 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:13.679 grew up in a lovely tranquil neighborhood in a house 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:18.600 backing on the bush, Sydney or in Sydney. Mum and 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:24.000 Dad had a good marriage. I had three younger sisters 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:30.080 who claim to worship me, although they don't give that 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:36.960 much evidence these days. Mum reckoned they did. I went 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.160 to school, first of all the Holy Family Convent, Linnfield, 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.240 then at Saint ala Wish's College, Nelson's Point, then at 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:48.760 Ignacious College Review Sydney University Economics law. Was lucky enough 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:50.560 to get a Rhodes scholarship to Oxford. 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.440 Could you just stop then? What is a Rhodes scholarship? Everyone? 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:54.840 He talked to me that no one knows what it. 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:59.720 Is, okay, Well, A Rhodes scholarship is a scholarship funded 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.600 out of the bequest of Cecil Rhodes, who was a 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:09.720 mining magnate in the country which was known as Rhodesia 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.760 after him. He was the first Prime Minister of Rhodesia 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:19.080 back in the eighteen nineties, mining magnate and when he 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:23.919 died in nineteen hundred and two, his fortune, which doesn't 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:27.160 sound like much in these days money, but it was 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:33.919 about three million pounds. It funded the Rhodes scholarships it's 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.760 done that to this day because it's been very well invested. 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.640 The Rhodes Scholarship is essentially a leadership scholarship. Cecil Rhodes 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.720 said that he wanted men for the world's fight, and 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:51.760 so every year each state, each of Australia's sixth states, 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.400 sends a Rhodes Scholar to Oxford. There are three Australia 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:59.280 at large Rhodes Scholarships, so that's nine Rhodes Scholars go 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:04.239 from Australia every year to Oxford. They've got to be bright, 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.680 they're supposed to be potential leaders. In the old days, 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.520 at least, they were usually people who had achieved a 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.440 bit in sport, and so I guess I didn't have 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.240 a stellar academic record by any means, but I've been 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.280 the president of the student's Counselor at Sydney UNI. I'd 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:26.000 played quite a bit of first grade rugby, so I 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.360 guess that's how I got there as a Rhodes Scholar. 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:34.920 Previous Rhodes Scholars in politics included Bob Hawk, Kim Beasley. 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.320 Malcolm Turnbull was also a Rhodes Scholar a couple of 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.280 years before me. So there's been a lot of Rhodes 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.520 Scholars over the years going too public life. And I 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:50.240 guess that's fitting because in his will Cecil Rhoades said 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:54.920 he wanted to produce leaders and the idea was to 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:59.080 bring the leaders of the English speaking world as thirty 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.880 odd Rhodes scholar a year from America. There are some 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:04.800 from Canada. There are quite a few from South Africa 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.320 as well. For a while there were Rhodes Scholars from Germany. 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:16.280 The idea was to bring the potential leaders of the 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:19.360 major countries of the world, particularly the English speaking world, 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:24.400 to Oxford, where it was thought by Cecil Rhodes, these 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.880 young men and subsequently young women would get the best 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:34.320 possible education and would develop the kind of comradeship between 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.040 each other that would lead to a more peaceful and 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:38.080 harmonious world. 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:43.360 That's a probably good introduction to asking you a question, 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:44.880 and I know it's probably bit early because we are 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.760 talking about yourself growing up, and I'll come back to 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:50.280 that in a moment, But what do you think about 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.680 leadership today? I mean, what do you think Cecil rhads 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:54.840 would think about? And of course Rhodesia used to be 0:04:55.400 --> 0:05:00.520 Rhodesia now called Zimbabwe. What would he now think aboutleadership 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.400 outside of the Hodes scholarships. But think about leadership and 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.240 what does it mean? What does leadership mean? I don't 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.080 know what it means to someone like you. 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.920 Yeah, okay, Well, a leader is someone who can make 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:18.280 a decision that involves people other than simply himself or herself, 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:23.800 and can make the decision stick. So a leader's got 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.320 to know his or her own mind, has got to 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:34.600 be capable of turning thoughts into resolutions, communicating successfully those 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:42.240 resolutions to others, and encouraging, inspiring, persuading others to join 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:47.760 in with those resolutions. That's essentially leadership. And whether the lead. 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.839 Whether leadership is exercised in persuading your mates that we 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.360 should go and see film X rather than film why, 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:59.000 Whether the leadership is exercised in getting together a group 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:03.160 of people to go on a holiday, whether it's starting 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:09.760 a business, whether it's leading a country. Leadership is exercised 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:11.840 in all sorts of different ways, by all sorts of 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.080 different people. But without leadership, nothing happens. 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.080 So where does courage fit in in leadership? That virtus? 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.479 Because you know, I just don't think we talk about 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:25.080 virtues enough. But where does the virtue of courage fit 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.960 into leadership. For rate, say running a country. Let's not 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:30.640 decide who's going to go to the movies. Let's just 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.120 say we're running country because that's your area of expertise, 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:38.640 or you're certainly your formal era expertise. And you mentioned 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.160 a number of other former prime ministers in the same 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.719 category or leaders of the opposition, you would have seen 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:46.560 common traits. 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:48.720 Was courage or common trait? 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.880 I think courage is an important part of good leadership. 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:59.159 I think courage is pretty rare. It was Lord Slim 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:02.560 who said moral courage is a far higher and rarer 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:07.720 virtue than physical courage. It was our old friend, father EMMITTT. Costello, 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:12.040 who used to frequently quote an obscure French cardinal that 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:14.880 I'd never heard of, But nevertheless Emmett loved. 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.840 His phrase, being a Jesuit priest for review. 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:24.240 Yes, Emmett kept quoting this cardinal pa from the nineteenth 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:29.280 century who said, prudence is everywhere, courage is nowhere. We 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.080 will all die of prudence. And I must say, I 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:38.040 think that's quite a useful reminder that prudence is a virtue, 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:42.440 but it's not the only virtue. Courage is equally and 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:44.240 no less important. 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.200 Because I mean, I will come back to you history 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:48.920 in a second because I want to know more about it. 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:52.160 But just on that topic, I. 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.760 Think it was Aristotle said that there was the courage 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:57.920 was He talked about the golden mean, which is the 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.560 point between reckless or fearless. 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:06.960 Fearless reckless or I should. 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.400 Say, which is down one end of the scale and 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.320 on the other end of the scale, was you know 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.880 you were coward and courage was the gold means somewhere 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.160 that somewhere in between, not in the middle, but somewhere 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:21.160 and different for everybody. But if you're becoming a leader 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:26.400 of a country, it would seem to me that finding 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.840 that golden mean as a leader of the country, as 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.280 a prime minister leading your party in this case in Australia. 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.640 In america's leading the country a bit different. 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:38.640 But do you think that we've lost that courage a 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:39.040 little bit? 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.880 Well, if you look at our political leadership, Mark, I 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:48.640 think that it peaked in the Hawk Howard Era Hawk 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:54.640 and Howard each in his own way, they were both very, 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:59.600 very effective and quite brave prime ministers. Hawk defied labor 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:04.320 or that I to I guess deregulate the labor market, 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:11.800 to privatize or begin privatization processes, to reduce tariffs, to 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:16.080 keep the unions more or less in their lane. And 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.959 then Howard did things like introduce work for the doll 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:23.840 he brought in tax reform, he reformed the waterfront. Howard 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.080 Hawke did most of his reforms with the support of 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:31.360 the Coalition, so at one level they were easier to 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:35.040 do because they weren't opposed in the Parliament the way 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.839 Howard's reforms were ferociously opposed by the Labor Party. But nevertheless, 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:44.400 I wouldn't underestimate the courage that both Hawk and Keating 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:51.120 showed in the economic sphere, because frankly, it's a very 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:55.800 unusual labor leader who can get out of the old 0:09:55.880 --> 0:10:01.280 Marxist capital versus labor paradigm and appreciate that workers do 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:07.280 best when the boss does well too. So we had 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:12.679 a quarter century of good leadership, really excellent, outstanding leadership 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.319 under Hawk and Howard. I think it's been of lesser 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:23.360 quality since then. And that's not because the individuals are 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:28.679 necessarily of lesser caliber, but I suspect there's certainly been 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:33.079 less courage, And I think in some instances less character. 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:37.319 And how much do you think courage is or courage 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:42.480 derives from what as possible? So it would seem to me, 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.400 particularly these days, with the ability to know what people 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:52.360 think polls, polling, and the ability to try and satisfy 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.200 as many people as you possibly can in order to 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.320 stay in government, because if you're not in government. 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:58.200 You can't make change. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.079 How much do you think courage is being diluted by 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:07.360 more information and not as ideologically based as it would 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:08.680 have maybe in the past. 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:13.400 I think political leadership is more difficult today because social 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.320 media and the twenty four to seven news cycle means 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.120 that you tend to be more distracted. I mean, in 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.760 Howard's time, you basically have to worry about the nightly 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:27.880 news and the morning's papers. But you're constantly being besieged 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:32.080 by the media today. So I think in one sense 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:38.160 leadership is more difficult. But what do you want in 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:42.480 a leader? You want character, You want conviction, you want courage, 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:47.199 you want judgment, and frankly, you also want luck. Some 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:52.880 people have it, some people don't. But I think that 0:11:55.040 --> 0:12:01.040 far too often these days politicians consult the polls, they 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:07.120 consult the focus group, and they allow themselves not to 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:11.280 give the public what the public needs, but they try 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:16.079 to give the public what the public wants. Now, we're 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.959 all human, so we tend to want to have our 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.480 cake and eat it too. And the truth is you 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:27.240 can't mostly do that. You've got to make choices, often 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:31.319 hard choices. And in the Hawk Howard era, there was 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:37.240 a greater tendency on the part of our leadership to say, look, 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:40.480 this is what's right for the country. This is the 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:46.240 argument in favor, and they would prosecute the case. That's 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.080 much less common. I mean, let's take the vexed subject 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:56.560 of climate change for instance. Now the Liberal Party is 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:04.120 having a huge inter discussion at the moment about energy 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:11.480 and climate policy. One of the reasons why we are 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:19.120 so angst written over abandoning the straight jacket of net 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:24.440 zero is because we think the public have been totally 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:30.880 if you're like, they've basically been brainwashed into excepting that 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.800 there is a climate crisis. Now, I don't think there 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:39.640 is a climate crisis. I think reducing emissions is nice 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.720 to do, but I don't think it's something that should 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:48.320 dominate our policy making as it does right now. I 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.400 think what the coalition should be prepared to do is 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:56.760 to say, look, frankly, net zero is leading us down 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.000 a path of economic ruin. We have to abandon it. 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:06.480 My former colleagues are very worried that doing this will 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:11.080 cost them seats and prevent them from winning the so 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:15.640 called Teal seats back. But if it's actually right, I 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.360 think the important thing is to make the case and 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.920 argue it day in day out between now and the 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.400 next election. And if you fail and you still believe 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.600 it's right, keep arguing it. I mean, take the GST 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:33.600 for instance. The GST, or at least a general Goods 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.560 and Services Tax, was first proposed by Keating at the 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:42.360 time of the tax summit in nineteen eighty five. The 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.480 Prime Minister Hawk decided it was a step too far. 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:52.040 That was when I suppose Hawk's caution and judgment trumped 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:59.640 Keeping's innovation and political courage. Then the GST was proposed 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.880 by John Houston, as you'd remember Mark in the fight 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:08.880 Back package, and Keating, having supported it back in eighty five, 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.840 ferociously opposed it in the ninety three election. And then 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.880 eventually the GST was brought in because John Howard had 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.320 the guts to take it to the people in the 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:24.200 nineteen ninety eight election. So the GST was an idea 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:31.320 that even its proponents eventually shied away from. Then it 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:37.120 was an idea that was ferociously fought about, initially in success, unsuccessfully, 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:43.280 finally successfully, and now it's totally accepted. So it is 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:49.560 possible to put forward policy initiatives that you think are 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:54.240 right but which are fiercely resisted, and you just argue 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.960 your way through to success. And it is the mark 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:04.920 of a six successful country that it can make tough 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:09.640 decisions and that it's leaders can successfully persuade people to 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:16.320 change their minds on things. And I think that if 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:20.400 you believe as I do, that reducing emissions is no 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:24.240 more than nice to do. If you think that the 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.640 important thing for the long term well being of our 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:34.280 country is economic growth, more jobs, more successful and more 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:38.000 dynamic industries, all of which requires an abundance of cheap 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:44.320 and reliable power, all of which requires continuing our mineral resources, agricultural, 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:48.320 et cetera. Development. If you think this is necessary, well, 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.480 and if you think that the net zero straight jacket 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.280 is gravely impeding all of this, well, then you should 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:55.440 be prepared to argue the. 0:16:55.320 --> 0:17:00.280 Case and that's leadership. That's leadership, thank you. 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.560 And another example, if I may say so, mark of 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:10.760 successful leadership, initially very much against the odds, was the 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.880 whole Voice debate that we had a couple of years back. 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:19.760 I mean, initially the Voice was pitched as just a lovely, 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:27.320 gracious mark of politeness and courtesy towards our Aboriginal fellow Australians. 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.359 In fact, this was a trojan horse in the heart 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:36.960 of government. And thanks to courageous individuals, particularly just Enterprise 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:42.000 and Warren Mundine, also Peter Darton and others. Thanks to 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:46.000 those courageous individuals, the public were persuaded that something that 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:50.879 they'd initially supported out of an abundance of goodwill was 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:54.240 something that they should oppose out of an abundance of 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:55.960 political judgment. 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:02.000 And in your world when you were the Prime minister, 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.320 what points do you remember where you had to tap 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:10.160 yourself on the shoulder and say, okay, Tony, it's time 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:14.480 to stand up straight and exercise courage in relation to 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:18.000 leading this country. What's some examples that you experienced. 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:20.480 What wars are like to doing do you have to 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:22.720 fight within your own party? Where does it go? 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:26.600 It's a very good question. 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:29.000 Apart from daily. 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:38.639 Yeah, I guess one of the biggest fights in my 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:44.040 time was what to do about illegal boat rifles. And 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.040 you'll remember that it started up at the end of 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.360 the Keeping era. It got worse during the Howard era 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:59.280 after the Tampa business. Effectively the boats were stopped and 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:03.240 then they started up again under Kevin Rudd when Kevin 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:07.399 Rudd closed down offshore processing and abolished temporary protection visas 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.719 and so on. And in I think August of twenty thirteen, 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:15.199 we had five thousand illegal arrivals by boat, so it 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:19.119 was a real crisis. We think that during the course 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.600 of the Rudd Gillard government, as well as fifty thousand 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.880 illegal arrivals in one thousand boats, there were at least 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.720 a thousand people who died at sea doing this very 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.879 unsafe business of jumping in a leaky fishing boat trying 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.159 to cross the three hundred kilometers of open sea between 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:41.359 Java and Christmas Island. Anyway, it was very important to 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.680 stop this. What was happening at the time was that 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.480 as soon as an Australian naval or customers vessel hove 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:54.000 into view, the people smugglers would scuttle their boats. The 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:58.440 passengers would be in the water, our personnel naturally had 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.600 to pick them up to stop the from drowning. Under 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.159 Rutt and Gillard, they were all taken to Christmas Island, 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:10.680 where effectively all of them eventually got to Australia and 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:16.480 many of them are still here to this day. I 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:21.119 determined we would do and obviously this was done in 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.840 consultation with my shadow cabinet colleagues, particularly Scott Morrison, who 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:30.520 was the relevant Shadow Minister. We decided under Operation Sovereign Borders, 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.640 that we would hold the people, the people that would 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:39.160 be illegal migrants. We would hold them on a mother 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:46.480 ship until a calm night when we would put them 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:51.119 in a big orange life raft just outside Indonesian territorial 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.960 waters came from with just enough fuel to get back 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:59.160 to Java. And this was hugely controversial at the time. 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.200 When I said that we would turn boats around when 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.720 it was safe to do so, Kevin Rudtha, prime Minister 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.200 at the time, said that this would this was not 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.760 only illegal, it was not only immoral, but it was 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:19.040 it would cause conflict with Indonesia, and that certainly was 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:23.760 the view of many of the officials. When I became 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:29.720 Prime Minister and I said, look, no self respecting country 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:34.440 can accept what amounts to a peaceful invasion, No self 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:37.919 respecting country can lose control of its borders. We simply 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.840 have to stop this. And frankly, we should not allow 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:49.920 somewhat nebulous concepts like international law which can't be enforced 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:54.080 in any court that has effective control over the actors. 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:59.760 We shouldn't let that stop us. And because it was 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:05.520 so remarkably successful so quickly, a policy that was hugely 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:11.800 contentious at the time is now, however begrudgingly by the left, 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:17.040 is now accepted. And to its credit, the Albanezy government 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:21.639 has largely maintained the border protection practices that began in 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:24.680 my time and that were then continued through the Turmbul 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:26.000 and morrison eras as well. 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:28.760 And when you when you came up with this idea 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:34.919 to do this, what was your objective was it? Was 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:38.880 it a matter of principle or is it a matter 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.159 of principle that people should meag just out to turn 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:42.760 up whenever they feel like it and coming through a 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:47.800 legal processes et cetera. Or was there something else beyond that, 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:51.000 like you know, economically made sense or it didn't make 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.680 sense economically, What was the what was your objective behind it? 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:58.440 Well, Mark, the principle is countries have got to keep 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:00.959 control of their borders. I mean, the mark of a 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:03.880 sovereign country is that it keeps control of its borders. 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:08.600 It controls who comes or doesn't come into the country. 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:13.320 So that was the principle, and the mechanism for realizing 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:17.719 the principle was to stop the illegal boats. And the 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:22.400 best way to stop the illegal boats was to turn 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:27.760 them back. And if the original boats were sunk or 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:32.040 otherwise destroyed, we gave them substitute boats and sent them 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.280 back in the unthinkable orange life raft. So the end 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:40.399 was national sovereignty. The means was turning boats around, and 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:45.040 the mechanism was supplying boats where the people smugler's boats 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:46.200 were no longer available. 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:49.720 And I asked John Howard a couple weeks ago about this, 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:53.520 but is national sovereignty? Is that? 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:59.120 Should that be a value that gets attributed to the nation. 0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:06.480 Well, Marke, ask yourself this, what might people make huge 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:14.159 sacrifices for even their life if necessary, your family, your faith, 0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:21.879 your country. I think that patriotism, love of country is 0:24:21.960 --> 0:24:25.200 one of the most powerful emotions that people have and yes, 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:30.920 I think we certainly should respect it and in appropriate 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:32.880 circumstances appeal to it. 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:37.600 That's very interesting. It's a high order. 0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:43.040 Value, very high order value, and maybe one that some 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:47.399 generations might be not that tuned into today these days. 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:51.000 Well, if you go back to the generations that fought 0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:54.480 the First and the Second World Wars, they obviously had 0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:58.679 a very strong sense of patriotism. Now it's possible, indeed, 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:03.160 it's certain that the patriotism of Australians at the time 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:06.360 of the Two World Wars was, if you like, an 0:25:06.440 --> 0:25:12.640 empire patriotism as well as simply a national patriotism. But 0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:21.400 I think that Australians today still feel strongly patriotic. I 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:27.439 think that official Australia is less inclined to appeal to 0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:30.679 people's patriotism. One of the reasons why I wrote my 0:25:30.800 --> 0:25:34.840 book Mark was because I think we've got a proud history. 0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:38.040 I think there's far more to look back on with 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:40.439 pride and satisfaction than there is to look back on 0:25:40.520 --> 0:25:44.640 with shame and embarrassment. But I think these days official 0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:50.000 Australia has very much imbibed what Jeffrey Blainey once called 0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:54.399 the black armband view of our history. It's interesting that 0:25:55.000 --> 0:25:58.600 many people on the left of politics don't want us 0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:03.080 to be particularly excited about Australia Day because they see 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:07.800 that in terms of sorrow more than they see it 0:26:07.840 --> 0:26:13.000 in terms of pride and achievement. So I think it 0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:20.679 is important if citizens are to feel appropriately proud of 0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:24.680 their country, that they have a good understanding of our history, 0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:29.480 particularly given that our history is on balance such a 0:26:29.520 --> 0:26:35.480 shining success. But yes, patriotism is very important and if 0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:39.960 our country is to flourish, people have a need to 0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:43.359 have a strong sense of commitment to it and a 0:26:43.440 --> 0:26:47.960 strong desire not just to succeed themselves, but have the 0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:49.080 country succeed too. 0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:53.639 Do you think that one of the reasons perhaps that 0:26:53.800 --> 0:27:01.440 patriotism as opposed to nationalism patriots is feeling and feeling 0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:06.640 pride in your country has somewhat diminished over the past 0:27:06.680 --> 0:27:11.200 maybe ten years, because Australia has done so well economically. 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:14.639 Our unemployment is so low and it always has been 0:27:14.680 --> 0:27:17.560 for a long and definitely even during the COVID period, 0:27:17.800 --> 0:27:20.320 you know, the government managed to keep unemployment where no 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:25.199 one else was and post COVID austrai as unemployment was 0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:27.560 at record levels because you know, generally speaking, unemployment up 0:27:27.560 --> 0:27:29.719 in the fives these days are still down before when 0:27:29.720 --> 0:27:32.800 it gets the four point five, it's the headline. Do 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:35.680 you think that there's a generation of people here who 0:27:35.720 --> 0:27:37.320 have had it so good that they just think this 0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:40.719 is a place. Australia is a place and we use 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:43.040 it like a utility, and therefore we don't need to 0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:45.560 have any patriotism because we don't work hard enough for it. 0:27:45.880 --> 0:27:47.879 Do you think that's a point? Because I'm in you 0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:51.440 and I similar generation. You know, important to get your job, 0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:54.480 important to work hard, important to respect the boss, is 0:27:54.520 --> 0:27:55.400 portant to respect the. 0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:56.480 Business that you work for. 0:27:56.840 --> 0:27:59.640 You didn't jump between jobs to job generally speaking state 0:27:59.680 --> 0:28:01.720 for period time because it was really important to have 0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:06.160