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Speaker 1: Tony have it. Welcome to straight Talk, Mark.

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Speaker 2: It's wonderful to be with you.

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Speaker 3: You are, by the way, my mum's it sounds very

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Speaker 3: tried and commonplace, but my mum's favorite politician.

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Speaker 2: Well, your mum must have been a wonderful woman.

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Speaker 1: Good start mate, Thanks very much for coming in.

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Speaker 3: So maybe, if possible, I don't know if many people

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Speaker 3: know much about you other than the fact you were

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Speaker 3: Prime Minister of the country for that matter, and there's

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Speaker 3: some instances where they remember you with you know, the

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Speaker 3: Budji smuggler's shirt f and the onion and I want

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Speaker 3: to talk about those things because they're their fun things.

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Speaker 3: But if we could just go back a bit, you know,

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Speaker 3: ideology is an important thing in the way we conduct

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Speaker 3: ourselves and our behavior, all of us, and it's also

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Speaker 3: what we tend to believe in. And our ideology I

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Speaker 3: think is formed largely from how we grew up influences

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Speaker 3: as on ask.

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Speaker 1: When we're kids, et cetera. So who's Tony Abbott the kid?

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Speaker 2: Well? I had two wonderful powers parents, my late father

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Speaker 2: my mum who's still with us at ninety two. I

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Speaker 2: grew up in a lovely tranquil neighborhood in a house

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Speaker 2: backing on the bush, Sydney or in Sydney. Mum and

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Speaker 2: Dad had a good marriage. I had three younger sisters

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Speaker 2: who claim to worship me, although they don't give that

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Speaker 2: much evidence these days. Mum reckoned they did. I went

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Speaker 2: to school, first of all the Holy Family Convent, Linnfield,

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Speaker 2: then at Saint ala Wish's College, Nelson's Point, then at

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Speaker 2: Ignacious College Review Sydney University Economics law. Was lucky enough

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Speaker 2: to get a Rhodes scholarship to Oxford.

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Speaker 1: Could you just stop then? What is a Rhodes scholarship? Everyone?

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Speaker 1: He talked to me that no one knows what it.

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Speaker 2: Is, okay, Well, A Rhodes scholarship is a scholarship funded

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Speaker 2: out of the bequest of Cecil Rhodes, who was a

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Speaker 2: mining magnate in the country which was known as Rhodesia

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Speaker 2: after him. He was the first Prime Minister of Rhodesia

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Speaker 2: back in the eighteen nineties, mining magnate and when he

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Speaker 2: died in nineteen hundred and two, his fortune, which doesn't

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Speaker 2: sound like much in these days money, but it was

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Speaker 2: about three million pounds. It funded the Rhodes scholarships it's

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Speaker 2: done that to this day because it's been very well invested.

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Speaker 2: The Rhodes Scholarship is essentially a leadership scholarship. Cecil Rhodes

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Speaker 2: said that he wanted men for the world's fight, and

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Speaker 2: so every year each state, each of Australia's sixth states,

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Speaker 2: sends a Rhodes Scholar to Oxford. There are three Australia

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Speaker 2: at large Rhodes Scholarships, so that's nine Rhodes Scholars go

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Speaker 2: from Australia every year to Oxford. They've got to be bright,

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Speaker 2: they're supposed to be potential leaders. In the old days,

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Speaker 2: at least, they were usually people who had achieved a

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Speaker 2: bit in sport, and so I guess I didn't have

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Speaker 2: a stellar academic record by any means, but I've been

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Speaker 2: the president of the student's Counselor at Sydney UNI. I'd

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Speaker 2: played quite a bit of first grade rugby, so I

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Speaker 2: guess that's how I got there as a Rhodes Scholar.

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Speaker 2: Previous Rhodes Scholars in politics included Bob Hawk, Kim Beasley.

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Speaker 2: Malcolm Turnbull was also a Rhodes Scholar a couple of

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Speaker 2: years before me. So there's been a lot of Rhodes

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Speaker 2: Scholars over the years going too public life. And I

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Speaker 2: guess that's fitting because in his will Cecil Rhoades said

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Speaker 2: he wanted to produce leaders and the idea was to

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Speaker 2: bring the leaders of the English speaking world as thirty

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Speaker 2: odd Rhodes scholar a year from America. There are some

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Speaker 2: from Canada. There are quite a few from South Africa

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Speaker 2: as well. For a while there were Rhodes Scholars from Germany.

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Speaker 2: The idea was to bring the potential leaders of the

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Speaker 2: major countries of the world, particularly the English speaking world,

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Speaker 2: to Oxford, where it was thought by Cecil Rhodes, these

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Speaker 2: young men and subsequently young women would get the best

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Speaker 2: possible education and would develop the kind of comradeship between

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Speaker 2: each other that would lead to a more peaceful and

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Speaker 2: harmonious world.

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Speaker 3: That's a probably good introduction to asking you a question,

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Speaker 3: and I know it's probably bit early because we are

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Speaker 3: talking about yourself growing up, and I'll come back to

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Speaker 3: that in a moment, But what do you think about

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Speaker 3: leadership today? I mean, what do you think Cecil rhads

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Speaker 3: would think about? And of course Rhodesia used to be

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Speaker 3: Rhodesia now called Zimbabwe. What would he now think aboutleadership

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Speaker 3: outside of the Hodes scholarships. But think about leadership and

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Speaker 3: what does it mean? What does leadership mean? I don't

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Speaker 3: know what it means to someone like you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Well, a leader is someone who can make

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Speaker 2: a decision that involves people other than simply himself or herself,

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Speaker 2: and can make the decision stick. So a leader's got

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Speaker 2: to know his or her own mind, has got to

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Speaker 2: be capable of turning thoughts into resolutions, communicating successfully those

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Speaker 2: resolutions to others, and encouraging, inspiring, persuading others to join

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Speaker 2: in with those resolutions. That's essentially leadership. And whether the lead.

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Speaker 2: Whether leadership is exercised in persuading your mates that we

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Speaker 2: should go and see film X rather than film why,

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Speaker 2: Whether the leadership is exercised in getting together a group

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Speaker 2: of people to go on a holiday, whether it's starting

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Speaker 2: a business, whether it's leading a country. Leadership is exercised

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Speaker 2: in all sorts of different ways, by all sorts of

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Speaker 2: different people. But without leadership, nothing happens.

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Speaker 1: So where does courage fit in in leadership? That virtus?

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Speaker 3: Because you know, I just don't think we talk about

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Speaker 3: virtues enough. But where does the virtue of courage fit

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Speaker 3: into leadership. For rate, say running a country. Let's not

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Speaker 3: decide who's going to go to the movies. Let's just

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Speaker 3: say we're running country because that's your area of expertise,

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Speaker 3: or you're certainly your formal era expertise. And you mentioned

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Speaker 3: a number of other former prime ministers in the same

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Speaker 3: category or leaders of the opposition, you would have seen

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Speaker 3: common traits.

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Speaker 1: Was courage or common trait?

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Speaker 2: I think courage is an important part of good leadership.

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Speaker 2: I think courage is pretty rare. It was Lord Slim

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Speaker 2: who said moral courage is a far higher and rarer

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Speaker 2: virtue than physical courage. It was our old friend, father EMMITTT. Costello,

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Speaker 2: who used to frequently quote an obscure French cardinal that

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Speaker 2: I'd never heard of, But nevertheless Emmett loved.

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Speaker 1: His phrase, being a Jesuit priest for review.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Emmett kept quoting this cardinal pa from the nineteenth

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Speaker 2: century who said, prudence is everywhere, courage is nowhere. We

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Speaker 2: will all die of prudence. And I must say, I

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Speaker 2: think that's quite a useful reminder that prudence is a virtue,

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Speaker 2: but it's not the only virtue. Courage is equally and

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Speaker 2: no less important.

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Speaker 3: Because I mean, I will come back to you history

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Speaker 3: in a second because I want to know more about it.

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Speaker 1: But just on that topic, I.

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Speaker 3: Think it was Aristotle said that there was the courage

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Speaker 3: was He talked about the golden mean, which is the

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Speaker 3: point between reckless or fearless.

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Speaker 1: Fearless reckless or I should.

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Speaker 3: Say, which is down one end of the scale and

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Speaker 3: on the other end of the scale, was you know

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Speaker 3: you were coward and courage was the gold means somewhere

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Speaker 3: that somewhere in between, not in the middle, but somewhere

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Speaker 3: and different for everybody. But if you're becoming a leader

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Speaker 3: of a country, it would seem to me that finding

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Speaker 3: that golden mean as a leader of the country, as

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Speaker 3: a prime minister leading your party in this case in Australia.

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Speaker 1: In america's leading the country a bit different.

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Speaker 3: But do you think that we've lost that courage a

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Speaker 3: little bit?

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Speaker 2: Well, if you look at our political leadership, Mark, I

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Speaker 2: think that it peaked in the Hawk Howard Era Hawk

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Speaker 2: and Howard each in his own way, they were both very,

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Speaker 2: very effective and quite brave prime ministers. Hawk defied labor

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Speaker 2: or that I to I guess deregulate the labor market,

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Speaker 2: to privatize or begin privatization processes, to reduce tariffs, to

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Speaker 2: keep the unions more or less in their lane. And

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Speaker 2: then Howard did things like introduce work for the doll

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Speaker 2: he brought in tax reform, he reformed the waterfront. Howard

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Speaker 2: Hawke did most of his reforms with the support of

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Speaker 2: the Coalition, so at one level they were easier to

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Speaker 2: do because they weren't opposed in the Parliament the way

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Speaker 2: Howard's reforms were ferociously opposed by the Labor Party. But nevertheless,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't underestimate the courage that both Hawk and Keating

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Speaker 2: showed in the economic sphere, because frankly, it's a very

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Speaker 2: unusual labor leader who can get out of the old

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Speaker 2: Marxist capital versus labor paradigm and appreciate that workers do

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Speaker 2: best when the boss does well too. So we had

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Speaker 2: a quarter century of good leadership, really excellent, outstanding leadership

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Speaker 2: under Hawk and Howard. I think it's been of lesser

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Speaker 2: quality since then. And that's not because the individuals are

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Speaker 2: necessarily of lesser caliber, but I suspect there's certainly been

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Speaker 2: less courage, And I think in some instances less character.

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Speaker 3: And how much do you think courage is or courage

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Speaker 3: derives from what as possible? So it would seem to me,

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Speaker 3: particularly these days, with the ability to know what people

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Speaker 3: think polls, polling, and the ability to try and satisfy

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Speaker 3: as many people as you possibly can in order to

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Speaker 3: stay in government, because if you're not in government.

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Speaker 1: You can't make change.

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Speaker 3: How much do you think courage is being diluted by

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Speaker 3: more information and not as ideologically based as it would

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Speaker 3: have maybe in the past.

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Speaker 2: I think political leadership is more difficult today because social

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Speaker 2: media and the twenty four to seven news cycle means

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Speaker 2: that you tend to be more distracted. I mean, in

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Speaker 2: Howard's time, you basically have to worry about the nightly

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Speaker 2: news and the morning's papers. But you're constantly being besieged

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Speaker 2: by the media today. So I think in one sense

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Speaker 2: leadership is more difficult. But what do you want in

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Speaker 2: a leader? You want character, You want conviction, you want courage,

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Speaker 2: you want judgment, and frankly, you also want luck. Some

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Speaker 2: people have it, some people don't. But I think that

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Speaker 2: far too often these days politicians consult the polls, they

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Speaker 2: consult the focus group, and they allow themselves not to

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Speaker 2: give the public what the public needs, but they try

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Speaker 2: to give the public what the public wants. Now, we're

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Speaker 2: all human, so we tend to want to have our

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Speaker 2: cake and eat it too. And the truth is you

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Speaker 2: can't mostly do that. You've got to make choices, often

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Speaker 2: hard choices. And in the Hawk Howard era, there was

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Speaker 2: a greater tendency on the part of our leadership to say, look,

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Speaker 2: this is what's right for the country. This is the

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Speaker 2: argument in favor, and they would prosecute the case. That's

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Speaker 2: much less common. I mean, let's take the vexed subject

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Speaker 2: of climate change for instance. Now the Liberal Party is

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Speaker 2: having a huge inter discussion at the moment about energy

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Speaker 2: and climate policy. One of the reasons why we are

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Speaker 2: so angst written over abandoning the straight jacket of net

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Speaker 2: zero is because we think the public have been totally

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Speaker 2: if you're like, they've basically been brainwashed into excepting that

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Speaker 2: there is a climate crisis. Now, I don't think there

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Speaker 2: is a climate crisis. I think reducing emissions is nice

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Speaker 2: to do, but I don't think it's something that should

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Speaker 2: dominate our policy making as it does right now. I

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Speaker 2: think what the coalition should be prepared to do is

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Speaker 2: to say, look, frankly, net zero is leading us down

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Speaker 2: a path of economic ruin. We have to abandon it.

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Speaker 2: My former colleagues are very worried that doing this will

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Speaker 2: cost them seats and prevent them from winning the so

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Speaker 2: called Teal seats back. But if it's actually right, I

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Speaker 2: think the important thing is to make the case and

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Speaker 2: argue it day in day out between now and the

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Speaker 2: next election. And if you fail and you still believe

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Speaker 2: it's right, keep arguing it. I mean, take the GST

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Speaker 2: for instance. The GST, or at least a general Goods

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Speaker 2: and Services Tax, was first proposed by Keating at the

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Speaker 2: time of the tax summit in nineteen eighty five. The

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister Hawk decided it was a step too far.

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Speaker 2: That was when I suppose Hawk's caution and judgment trumped

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Speaker 2: Keeping's innovation and political courage. Then the GST was proposed

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Speaker 2: by John Houston, as you'd remember Mark in the fight

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Speaker 2: Back package, and Keating, having supported it back in eighty five,

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Speaker 2: ferociously opposed it in the ninety three election. And then

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Speaker 2: eventually the GST was brought in because John Howard had

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Speaker 2: the guts to take it to the people in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight election. So the GST was an idea

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Speaker 2: that even its proponents eventually shied away from. Then it

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Speaker 2: was an idea that was ferociously fought about, initially in success, unsuccessfully,

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Speaker 2: finally successfully, and now it's totally accepted. So it is

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Speaker 2: possible to put forward policy initiatives that you think are

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Speaker 2: right but which are fiercely resisted, and you just argue

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Speaker 2: your way through to success. And it is the mark

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Speaker 2: of a six successful country that it can make tough

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Speaker 2: decisions and that it's leaders can successfully persuade people to

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Speaker 2: change their minds on things. And I think that if

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Speaker 2: you believe as I do, that reducing emissions is no

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Speaker 2: more than nice to do. If you think that the

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Speaker 2: important thing for the long term well being of our

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Speaker 2: country is economic growth, more jobs, more successful and more

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Speaker 2: dynamic industries, all of which requires an abundance of cheap

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Speaker 2: and reliable power, all of which requires continuing our mineral resources, agricultural,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. Development. If you think this is necessary, well,

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Speaker 2: and if you think that the net zero straight jacket

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Speaker 2: is gravely impeding all of this, well, then you should

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Speaker 2: be prepared to argue the.

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Speaker 1: Case and that's leadership. That's leadership, thank you.

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Speaker 2: And another example, if I may say so, mark of

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Speaker 2: successful leadership, initially very much against the odds, was the

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Speaker 2: whole Voice debate that we had a couple of years back.

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Speaker 2: I mean, initially the Voice was pitched as just a lovely,

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Speaker 2: gracious mark of politeness and courtesy towards our Aboriginal fellow Australians.

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Speaker 2: In fact, this was a trojan horse in the heart

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Speaker 2: of government. And thanks to courageous individuals, particularly just Enterprise

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Speaker 2: and Warren Mundine, also Peter Darton and others. Thanks to

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Speaker 2: those courageous individuals, the public were persuaded that something that

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Speaker 2: they'd initially supported out of an abundance of goodwill was

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Speaker 2: something that they should oppose out of an abundance of

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Speaker 2: political judgment.

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Speaker 3: And in your world when you were the Prime minister,

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Speaker 3: what points do you remember where you had to tap

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Speaker 3: yourself on the shoulder and say, okay, Tony, it's time

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Speaker 3: to stand up straight and exercise courage in relation to

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Speaker 3: leading this country. What's some examples that you experienced.

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Speaker 1: What wars are like to doing do you have to

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Speaker 1: fight within your own party? Where does it go?

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Speaker 2: It's a very good question.

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Speaker 1: Apart from daily.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess one of the biggest fights in my

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Speaker 2: time was what to do about illegal boat rifles. And

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Speaker 2: you'll remember that it started up at the end of

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Speaker 2: the Keeping era. It got worse during the Howard era

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Speaker 2: after the Tampa business. Effectively the boats were stopped and

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Speaker 2: then they started up again under Kevin Rudd when Kevin

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Speaker 2: Rudd closed down offshore processing and abolished temporary protection visas

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Speaker 2: and so on. And in I think August of twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 2: we had five thousand illegal arrivals by boat, so it

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Speaker 2: was a real crisis. We think that during the course

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Speaker 2: of the Rudd Gillard government, as well as fifty thousand

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Speaker 2: illegal arrivals in one thousand boats, there were at least

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Speaker 2: a thousand people who died at sea doing this very

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Speaker 2: unsafe business of jumping in a leaky fishing boat trying

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Speaker 2: to cross the three hundred kilometers of open sea between

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Speaker 2: Java and Christmas Island. Anyway, it was very important to

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Speaker 2: stop this. What was happening at the time was that

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Speaker 2: as soon as an Australian naval or customers vessel hove

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Speaker 2: into view, the people smugglers would scuttle their boats. The

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Speaker 2: passengers would be in the water, our personnel naturally had

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Speaker 2: to pick them up to stop the from drowning. Under

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Speaker 2: Rutt and Gillard, they were all taken to Christmas Island,

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Speaker 2: where effectively all of them eventually got to Australia and

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Speaker 2: many of them are still here to this day. I

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Speaker 2: determined we would do and obviously this was done in

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Speaker 2: consultation with my shadow cabinet colleagues, particularly Scott Morrison, who

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Speaker 2: was the relevant Shadow Minister. We decided under Operation Sovereign Borders,

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Speaker 2: that we would hold the people, the people that would

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Speaker 2: be illegal migrants. We would hold them on a mother

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Speaker 2: ship until a calm night when we would put them

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Speaker 2: in a big orange life raft just outside Indonesian territorial

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Speaker 2: waters came from with just enough fuel to get back

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Speaker 2: to Java. And this was hugely controversial at the time.

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Speaker 2: When I said that we would turn boats around when

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Speaker 2: it was safe to do so, Kevin Rudtha, prime Minister

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Speaker 2: at the time, said that this would this was not

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Speaker 2: only illegal, it was not only immoral, but it was

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Speaker 2: it would cause conflict with Indonesia, and that certainly was

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Speaker 2: the view of many of the officials. When I became

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister and I said, look, no self respecting country

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Speaker 2: can accept what amounts to a peaceful invasion, No self

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Speaker 2: respecting country can lose control of its borders. We simply

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Speaker 2: have to stop this. And frankly, we should not allow

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Speaker 2: somewhat nebulous concepts like international law which can't be enforced

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Speaker 2: in any court that has effective control over the actors.

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Speaker 2: We shouldn't let that stop us. And because it was

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Speaker 2: so remarkably successful so quickly, a policy that was hugely

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Speaker 2: contentious at the time is now, however begrudgingly by the left,

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Speaker 2: is now accepted. And to its credit, the Albanezy government

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Speaker 2: has largely maintained the border protection practices that began in

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Speaker 2: my time and that were then continued through the Turmbul

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Speaker 2: and morrison eras as well.

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Speaker 3: And when you when you came up with this idea

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Speaker 3: to do this, what was your objective was it? Was

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Speaker 3: it a matter of principle or is it a matter

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Speaker 3: of principle that people should meag just out to turn

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Speaker 3: up whenever they feel like it and coming through a

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Speaker 3: legal processes et cetera. Or was there something else beyond that,

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Speaker 3: like you know, economically made sense or it didn't make

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Speaker 3: sense economically, What was the what was your objective behind it?

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Speaker 2: Well, Mark, the principle is countries have got to keep

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Speaker 2: control of their borders. I mean, the mark of a

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Speaker 2: sovereign country is that it keeps control of its borders.

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Speaker 2: It controls who comes or doesn't come into the country.

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Speaker 2: So that was the principle, and the mechanism for realizing

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Speaker 2: the principle was to stop the illegal boats. And the

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Speaker 2: best way to stop the illegal boats was to turn

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Speaker 2: them back. And if the original boats were sunk or

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Speaker 2: otherwise destroyed, we gave them substitute boats and sent them

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Speaker 2: back in the unthinkable orange life raft. So the end

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Speaker 2: was national sovereignty. The means was turning boats around, and

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Speaker 2: the mechanism was supplying boats where the people smugler's boats

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Speaker 2: were no longer available.

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Speaker 3: And I asked John Howard a couple weeks ago about this,

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Speaker 3: but is national sovereignty? Is that?

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Speaker 1: Should that be a value that gets attributed to the nation.

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Speaker 2: Well, Marke, ask yourself this, what might people make huge

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Speaker 2: sacrifices for even their life if necessary, your family, your faith,

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Speaker 2: your country. I think that patriotism, love of country is

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Speaker 2: one of the most powerful emotions that people have and yes,

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Speaker 2: I think we certainly should respect it and in appropriate

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Speaker 2: circumstances appeal to it.

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Speaker 1: That's very interesting. It's a high order.

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Speaker 3: Value, very high order value, and maybe one that some

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Speaker 3: generations might be not that tuned into today these days.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you go back to the generations that fought

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Speaker 2: the First and the Second World Wars, they obviously had

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Speaker 2: a very strong sense of patriotism. Now it's possible, indeed,

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Speaker 2: it's certain that the patriotism of Australians at the time

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Speaker 2: of the Two World Wars was, if you like, an

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Speaker 2: empire patriotism as well as simply a national patriotism. But

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Speaker 2: I think that Australians today still feel strongly patriotic. I

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Speaker 2: think that official Australia is less inclined to appeal to

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Speaker 2: people's patriotism. One of the reasons why I wrote my

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Speaker 2: book Mark was because I think we've got a proud history.

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Speaker 2: I think there's far more to look back on with

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Speaker 2: pride and satisfaction than there is to look back on

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Speaker 2: with shame and embarrassment. But I think these days official

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Speaker 2: Australia has very much imbibed what Jeffrey Blainey once called

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Speaker 2: the black armband view of our history. It's interesting that

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Speaker 2: many people on the left of politics don't want us

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Speaker 2: to be particularly excited about Australia Day because they see

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Speaker 2: that in terms of sorrow more than they see it

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Speaker 2: in terms of pride and achievement. So I think it

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Speaker 2: is important if citizens are to feel appropriately proud of

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Speaker 2: their country, that they have a good understanding of our history,

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Speaker 2: particularly given that our history is on balance such a

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Speaker 2: shining success. But yes, patriotism is very important and if

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Speaker 2: our country is to flourish, people have a need to

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Speaker 2: have a strong sense of commitment to it and a

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Speaker 2: strong desire not just to succeed themselves, but have the

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Speaker 2: country succeed too.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that one of the reasons perhaps that

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Speaker 3: patriotism as opposed to nationalism patriots is feeling and feeling

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Speaker 3: pride in your country has somewhat diminished over the past

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Speaker 3: maybe ten years, because Australia has done so well economically.

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Speaker 3: Our unemployment is so low and it always has been

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Speaker 3: for a long and definitely even during the COVID period,

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Speaker 3: you know, the government managed to keep unemployment where no

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Speaker 3: one else was and post COVID austrai as unemployment was

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Speaker 3: at record levels because you know, generally speaking, unemployment up

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Speaker 3: in the fives these days are still down before when

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Speaker 3: it gets the four point five, it's the headline. Do

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Speaker 3: you think that there's a generation of people here who

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Speaker 3: have had it so good that they just think this

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Speaker 3: is a place. Australia is a place and we use

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Speaker 3: it like a utility, and therefore we don't need to

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Speaker 3: have any patriotism because we don't work hard enough for it.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that's a point? Because I'm in you

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Speaker 3: and I similar generation. You know, important to get your job,

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Speaker 3: important to work hard, important to respect the boss, is

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Speaker 3: portant to respect the.

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Speaker 1: Business that you work for.

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Speaker 3: You didn't jump between jobs to job generally speaking state

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Speaker 3: for period time because it was really important to have

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Speaker 3: a job. It was jammed into us respect as well

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Speaker 3: for your boss. But these days people can leave a

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Speaker 3: job six months and they get another one because there's

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Speaker 3: unemployment so low. Do you think that there is a

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Speaker 3: correlation between unemployment and maybe the diminution in patriotism towards

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Speaker 3: the country that you know that is looking after you.

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Speaker 2: Mark, I certainly do think that we've had it very

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Speaker 2: good for a very long time in this country, and

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Speaker 2: I do think that these and luxury can breed indulgence

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Speaker 2: and entitlement, and I think their vices, if you like,

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Speaker 2: I suspect that we might suffer from those vices a

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Speaker 2: little more than we did, and I personally wish it

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Speaker 2: were otherwise. I mean, earlier generations of Australians did have

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Speaker 2: a tougher life physically financially, and I think they were

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Speaker 2: more alive to the need for sacrifice, to do one's duty,

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Speaker 2: to be prepared to live a life of service. I

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Speaker 2: think people were more in tune with that. And again,

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons why I've written this history is

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Speaker 2: to remind people today of the strengths of applebears, both

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Speaker 2: individually and collectively. Because you never know what's around the corner.

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Speaker 2: We think that the world will continue more or less

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Speaker 2: as it is, that our country will always be rich,

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Speaker 2: that our country will always be safe, that our country

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Speaker 2: will always be free. But look at other countries where

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Speaker 2: people aren't safe, they aren't free, they aren't rich, or

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Speaker 2: they might be rich enough, but they're certainly not free.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the world over the last two hundred years

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Speaker 2: has basically been shaped by the long Anglo American ascendancy.

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Speaker 2: We are a product of the long Anglo American ascendancy.

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Speaker 2: Our institutions, our attitudes, our way of life, all fundamentally

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Speaker 2: shaped by the Anglo American ascendancy. If the world of

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Speaker 2: the future is dominated by China, for instance, it'll be

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Speaker 2: a very different world, much less free, certainly, I would say,

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Speaker 2: much less fair, and fundamentally in the long run, I

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Speaker 2: suspect much less rich, because I don't believe that a

436
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: basically totalitarian society can be as creative as a free

437
00:30:55,040 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: society such as ours can be. And it's quite possible,

438
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: maybe even likely, that tensions between the democracies and the dictatorships,

439
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: which are operating in a kind of informal alliance of

440
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: the Chinese, the Russians, the Iranians, the North Koreans, it's

441
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: quite likely that tensions at some point could boil over

442
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: into conflict. I mean, we've got conflict in Ukraine, We've

443
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 2: got conflict in the Middle East, We've got enormous tensions

444
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: in East Asia. And as a country, we have to

445
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: be prepared economically, militarily, and above all else psychically for

446
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: whatever might come. And I just hope that if we

447
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: do face much fiercer challenges than we have in recent

448
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: times that we will be ready for it, it up

449
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: for it.

450
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 3: Do you think it's often ponder on this particular question,

451
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: and in terms of attitude and mindset, do you think

452
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 3: it's often? I think to myself, you and I just

453
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 3: a couple of old blokes who have gone through a

454
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 3: different but I competed to the younger generation relatively speaking,

455
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: who have just gone through a different type of upbringing.

456
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 3: We have different set of values, or probably a different

457
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 3: set of values, a different set of things that are

458
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 3: more available to us relative to the younger generation.

459
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: We don't we don't buy and buy. We live on

460
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: an island.

461
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: We're nice and safe here and everything's going to be great.

462
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 3: No one's going to come near us, whereas the other generation,

463
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: younger generations tend.

464
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: To think that.

465
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: Do you think that there's that possibility that there is?

466
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: We are over over egging it and we are over

467
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: worrying about these things. And because as we get older,

468
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 3: we play more defensive. Do you think that's a possibility

469
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 3: of from wondered myself, will test myself all the time about.

470
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: Well Mark, I go back to the twenty nine in

471
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: election campaign in Warringa, which I lost. I had young people,

472
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: often kids still at school who no doubt had been

473
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: put up to this by their teachers, but literally quite

474
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: a quivering with fear and anxiety, telling me that they

475
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: would probably be dead in a few years time because

476
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: of climate change that my government was not or the

477
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: party that I was part of, was not doing enough

478
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: to fix. So young people today, I think are being

479
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 2: scared to death over climate anxiety in a way that

480
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: maybe earlier generations were worried about nuclear war for instance.

481
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: Now I've got to say, I think major conflict between

482
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: great powers is vastly more scary to me than the

483
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: possibility of a couple of degrees of warming several decades,

484
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 2: hence which we can easily adapt to. I mean, there

485
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 2: have always been storms, there have always been floods, There've

486
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: always been fires, There've always been droughts. And the richer

487
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: and stronger we are, the better we will be able

488
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: to cope with these things. And if some areas of

489
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 2: agriculture shrink and others grow, well, so be it. Again.

490
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 2: We can deal with it in the future as we've

491
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 2: always done in the past. But a major war, particularly

492
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 2: one involving nuclear weapons, would be a complete catastrophe, an

493
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 2: unimaginable disaster. I mean, imagine Sydney being like Marier Poll.

494
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: Imagine Sydney being like Gaza. That's what war does. And

495
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter whether your cause is just. If your

496
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 2: country is subject to bombardment, it's ghastly beyond belief. So

497
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 2: that's the sort of thing that I think we should

498
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 2: be worried about. And the best way to ensure that

499
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: it doesn't come is not to be weak, because weakness

500
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: is provocative. It's to be strong, not aggressive, but strong

501
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: and certain and clear, because the only way we will

502
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 2: deter aggresses is by being strong and certain and clear

503
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: in response. I mean, if Ukraine had been in NATO,

504
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 2: Pudin would never have invaded. Pudin only invaded Ukraine because

505
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: he thought it would all be over in a week.

506
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 2: And it's immensely to the credit of the incredibly gallant

507
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: and heroic Ukrainian. So I think of fighting for everyone's

508
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 2: freedom that they have been able to resist so successfully

509
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 2: for so long. But this is an object lesson in

510
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: what to do or not to do. If your country

511
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 2: is to survive and flourish, it is to be strong,

512
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: economically strong, militarily, strong, psychologically and if possible to have

513
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 2: strong alliances as well.

514
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 3: So someone like you, when you see Dan Andrews standing

515
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 3: there in China alongside Putin presidency and the North Korean president,

516
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 3: it must make your blood boil, because isn't that the opposite?

517
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 3: Isn't that to what you just said, that's the opposite?

518
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 2: Like Well, there was a phrase mark that I think

519
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 2: Lenin used of the capitalists who were going to sell

520
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: the communists the rope by which the capitalists were hanged.

521
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: The phrase was useful idiots, useful idiots. And I think

522
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 2: there are lots of useful idiots in Australia at the moment.

523
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 3: So when we come when you look at let's call

524
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 3: it left of politics, it seems to me that there's

525
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 3: a lot of ideology pushed into the left and obviously

526
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 3: ideologies pushed into the right.

527
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 2: Term.

528
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 3: We were talking about the things that form your ideologies,

529
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,479
Speaker 3: and you talked about your schooling, and you talked about

530
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 3: your education, and I might just ask you quickly, because

531
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: we know you became the Prime minister, but how did

532
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 3: you get into politics?

533
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 1: What were you doing before politics?

534
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: Well, my mother, my father, people like father Amer Costello

535
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: had well and truly engendered a great interest in history,

536
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 2: in you, in me, In me, I was fascinated by history.

537
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: And Australian history, and history.

538
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 2: History generally, but not certainly, not excluding Australian history, but

539
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: history generally. And I am by the great Man theory

540
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 2: of history that the world is shaped by strong individuals

541
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 2: who make a difference. I think the world gets better

542
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: or worse person by person, and if more people make

543
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: good choices, things improve. If more people make bad choices,

544
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 2: things get worse. And obviously, the further up the leadership

545
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: ladder you are, the more significant your choices become. So

546
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 2: I was interested in history. When I got to university,

547
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 2: which even in those days the mid seventies, was dominated

548
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 2: by the Green Left, I thought, well, this is ridiculous.

549
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: Let's do what I can to change that. So I

550
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: ran for student politics, eventually became the SRC president. Worked

551
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 2: out along the way that Canes was right to this

552
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: extent at leastomists, that Knes the economist was right, at

553
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 2: least to this extent, that practical men are slaves to

554
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 2: the ideas of long dead economists. So I thought, let's

555
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 2: try to enter the battlefield of ideas. I started writing

556
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 2: stuff for the Sydney University paper Honi Swar. Eventually the

557
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: Honi Swire editors wouldn't.

558
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: Publish me because.

559
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 2: Left, so I started getting stuff published in the Herald,

560
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 2: the Australian, the Bulletin. Eventually became a journalist and then

561
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 2: I became a political staffer press seguri to John Hewson

562
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: when he was leader of the Opposition. Then after the

563
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three election, for a year or so I

564
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 2: was the initial executive director of Australians for Constitutional Monarchy.

565
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 2: And then in nineteen ninety four, when a fellow called

566
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 2: Michael mckeller retired as Member for Ringer, I was on

567
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: holidays at the time. A bit bored. I called my

568
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,439
Speaker 2: office to see what was happening and I was told

569
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 2: that John I would have wanted to talk to me.

570
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 2: So I rang John and he said, look, Toney, Michael

571
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: McKell is just retiring as a member for Ringer. I

572
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: think you should throw your hat into the ring for

573
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,919
Speaker 2: the Liberal preselection, which I did. The two favored candidates

574
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 2: were Kevin McCann, at that stage a senior partner in

575
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: Sydney's biggest law firm, and Peter King, at that stage

576
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 2: a leading barrister now Kevin McCann went on to become

577
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 2: chairman of mcquarie bank. Peter King became for a time

578
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: member for Wentworth. But they were the two leading candidates

579
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: and I sort of came up the middle and snagged

580
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 2: the pre selection. And I guess then followed twenty five

581
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: tumultuous and largely successful use in the parliament.

582
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 1: Would you say you loved being in poond?

583
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 2: I loved making a difference, and being in Parliament is

584
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: probably the pre eminent way of making a difference in

585
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 2: this country.

586
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: And what about the joust that happens every day? Like

587
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: you're down there in the mother sheep in camera.

588
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 3: I guess you're walking down the aisles and you're brushing

589
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 3: past various oppositions.

590
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: What about the jousts? Did you love that part?

591
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: Yes?

592
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 3: And no?

593
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 2: I mean I was regarded as a pretty ferocious parliamentary

594
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: warrior because you had to be, you had to be.

595
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 2: These days, I listened to Parliament and I think, geez,

596
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 2: there's far too much mindless abuse, far too much the

597
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: other marble all wrong and our marble all right. When

598
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: the truth is, no one has a monopoly on wisdom,

599
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: no one's judgments are perfect. All governments get something's wrong,

600
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 2: and the truth is best advanced by a civil debate

601
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: which at least respects the good will of most of

602
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: the participants. And I think that there's not enough of

603
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: that in our national conversation these days, and there's certainly

604
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 2: not enough of that in the Parliament now. Some people

605
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: will say, oh, but Abbott you were when you were

606
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 2: the Leader of the House. You're always getting up and

607
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: having a go at the other side, And that's true.

608
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 2: But I'd like to think that I was playing the ball,

609
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: not the man, and I'd like to think that I

610
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: was attacking the other side's positions rather than attacking the

611
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: other side personally. Although I did once say of Kim

612
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 2: Beasley that he was a sanctimonious wind bag.

613
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: Well all jawbone and no backbone, had that go.

614
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: I think I got kicked out of the Parliament for that.

615
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: And look, i'vectually got a lot of time for Kim Beasley.

616
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 2: I mean, Kim Beasley is probably that by far the

617
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 2: most substantial figure on the labor side of politics, at

618
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: least in recent decades, not to become Prime Minister. And

619
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 2: for what it's worth, I think Kim Beasley would have

620
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: been a pretty good prime minister, arguably better than the

621
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 2: people who did succeed him and go on to be

622
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: prime minister.

623
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 3: You'll never be accused of being a shrinking violent in

624
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 3: politics and probably in life for that matter. Once you

625
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 3: famously shirt fronted them and it was over, you know,

626
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 3: the plane going down, and I actually I loved it,

627
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 3: to be frankly, I thought it was fantastic. But not

628
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 3: everybody likes that sort of stuff. And I just want

629
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 3: to ask you about the Australian mindset, the psyche of Australians.

630
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 3: Why wouldn't someone like for example, do well in Australia.

631
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 3: Have we inherited some Anglo Irish thing about people being

632
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 3: too tough or is it a tall poppy syndrome thing? Well,

633
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 3: what is it that you know Trump will sent up

634
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 3: to everybody used it up? I'm not sure whether people

635
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 3: actually in Australia really like that. What do you think

636
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 3: about that?

637
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: Look, our system is different from the American system, and

638
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: to become a national leader in Australia, you've got to

639
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: be able to secure a parliamentary majority, which means that

640
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 2: you've got to have a degree of respect and perhaps

641
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 2: some level of affection from your peers, yours, your political peers,

642
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: your fellow members of parliament in your particular party. The

643
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: American system is quite different because the party structures a

644
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: much looser. Party discipline is not nearly as tight. The

645
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 2: primary system means that charismatic individuals can emerge from nowhere.

646
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 2: I mean, Donald Trump had never held elective office when

647
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: he ran for the Republican nomination. He'd actually been a

648
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 2: Democrat as well as a Republican, as well as neither.

649
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: Over the years, he'd created I suppose some kind of

650
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,919
Speaker 2: a profile via reality TV, and I guess the fact

651
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: that he was a billionaire who was often in the media,

652
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 2: at least in New York, gave him a certain cachet.

653
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: But I don't think someone like Donald Trump could emerge

654
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 2: in Australia. I think the most that someone like Donald

655
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: Trump could do in Australia would be who perhaps elbow

656
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: his way into the Senate, where if you can get

657
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: a quota, which is about I think twelve percent of

658
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 2: the vote or fourteen percent of the vote, you're there

659
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: as a senator. But I don't think a Trump like

660
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 2: figure could readily emerge in Australia.

661
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 3: Do you think Australians because I mean, I'm not sure,

662
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 3: but I think I feel as though Trump did not

663
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 3: help Peter Dutton in the last election.

664
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting that Anthony Albanesi is now best mates

665
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: with Donald Trump.

666
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: That might worked against.

667
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: Because during the election the Labor Party tried to smear

668
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 2: Dutton via association with Donald Trump.

669
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: Now you probably didn't even know him.

670
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 2: Well, Look, I'd be very confident that Peter Dutton didn't

671
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 2: know Trump certainly. And our country is different. I mean, yes,

672
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: there are a lot of commonalities between Australia and the

673
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: United States. I do think that the English speaking countries

674
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 2: are in a sense family. But your brother and your

675
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 2: sister can be quite different from you, even if there

676
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 2: are some things you've got in common. So look, America

677
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 2: is a great country. Americans are great people. Their political

678
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 2: system is quite different from ours. Their political psyche, I think,

679
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 2: is quite different from ours. And Trump plays better in

680
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: the United States than he does anywhere else. But this

681
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 2: is not uncommon. I mean, I can remember George W.

682
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 2: Bush didn't play very well in Australia, whereas Tony Blair,

683
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: and they were both I suppose very frequently in our

684
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 2: media at the time of the Iraq War. Personally, I

685
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 2: thought Tony Blair was a vastly better advocate for the

686
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 2: policies that Britain, Australia and America were pursuing at that

687
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 2: time than George W. Bush was. And that's not because

688
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 2: George W. Bush was a lesser man. I just think

689
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: that American style sometimes doesn't translate very well to other countries.

690
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 3: So it would not be advisable for any Australians who

691
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 3: are ambitious and aspiring to be perhaps the leader the

692
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 3: leader party in this country to run that type of politics.

693
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 2: Well, I think if you're in Australia would be Australian leader.

694
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 2: On the left, Bob Hawk should be your exemplar, and

695
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 2: on the right, John Howard should be your exemplar.

696
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 3: It's very interesting. So I want to talk about your book.

697
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm dying to know why you wrote a book.

698
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's.

699
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 3: You're not doing it for the money, because I know

700
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 3: there won't be any money in it. I've written books.

701
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 3: There's any money in.

702
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: Books and there, and they take a long time to

703
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: do that. It's a mission, it's a massive mission. How

704
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: long it take you write for a start?

705
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 2: Look, I think I was from start to finish. It

706
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 2: would have been probably three and a half, maybe even

707
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 2: four years. I mean it all started when John Roscombe,

708
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: the then head of the Institute of Public Affairs, with

709
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 2: whom I was doing an occasional podcast, We were talking

710
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 2: about I guess what ailed our country, and we mutually

711
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,720
Speaker 2: decided that not enough people were sufficiently familiar with our history,

712
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: and those that were tended to see it all in

713
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 2: black armband terms of dispossession, even genocide against original people,

714
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,399
Speaker 2: and I guess. I then decided that I could put

715
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 2: together a general history of the country, a more upbeat

716
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 2: general history of the country, and John very kindly offered

717
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 2: to give me some research assistance. So work started three

718
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: and a half four years ago. Eventually I had what

719
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 2: I thought was a good draft. I suggested to Paul

720
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 2: Whittaker that maybe HarperCollins might like to publish. HarperCollins eventually agreed,

721
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: and they had various queries suggestions, which involved a lot

722
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 2: of rewriting. If you like, revising, adding, subtracting, and so on.

723
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 2: So I know, if I'm writing a speech, for instance,

724
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 2: sometimes it'll flow very easily, and the first draft is

725
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: pretty much the final draft but sometimes I'll write it

726
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: and I'll rewrite it, and I'll rewrite it again, and

727
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: it might go through three or four major iterations. This one,

728
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 2: this book, I have read it so many times, and

729
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 2: every time I read it, I would change something because

730
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself, do I really need that fact?

731
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 2: Should I include this fact? Is that the right way

732
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 2: to look at this? Maybe I need to be more

733
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 2: generous about that. So yeah, in the end, these things,

734
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 2: the facts are sacred, and you've got to try to

735
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: ensure that all the important facts are there and are

736
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: accurately presented. Then of course there's I suppose your interpretations,

737
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 2: and I guess it is in a sense part of

738
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 2: the subjective process deciding which facts are relevant and which

739
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 2: ones aren't. But facts are so important. And this was

740
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: the first book I've done which was if you like

741
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 2: a study as opposed to a piece of advocacy, I mean,

742
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 2: if if what you are doing is putting forward an argument,

743
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 2: you can often write it out of your own head,

744
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 2: particularly if it's an argument that you've been making for

745
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 2: a long time. But if it's if it's going to

746
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 2: be a credible study, you've got to do a lot

747
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 2: of research or get a lot of research done.

748
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 3: So you see, you're you're I think what you're saying, though,

749
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 3: correct me if I'm wrong.

750
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: It wasn't you prosecuting any case.

751
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:39,479
Speaker 2: It was well except for the fact that I think

752
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 2: the Australian story, on balance is a very good one.

753
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: So did you discover that during the research or you

754
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 1: already thought that?

755
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 2: I have always I have always been that instinctively and

756
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 2: based on my general knowledge of Australian history, I have

757
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 2: always thought that our story was a good one, and

758
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 2: I've always tended to arc up when people have suggested otherwise.

759
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 2: And I thought, well, let's given the degree of ignorance,

760
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 2: given the degree of what might be described as prejudice,

761
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 2: I thought, let's tell the story. Let's tell the story again,

762
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 2: more or less from the beginning right up to the

763
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 2: present time. Let's try to be as objective as possible.

764
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 2: Let's try to respect all the important facts, and let's

765
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 2: see what they amount to to me. When you think

766
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: that modern Australia began when fifteen hundred draggled souls were

767
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 2: dumped not far from here, half a world away from

768
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 2: their home, in a completely strange, unfamiliar, alien landscape within

769
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 2: one hundred years, they had created colonies with the world's

770
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: highest standard of living at the time. They had become

771
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: democratic pioneers. Almost the first places where every man and

772
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 2: then every woman and indeed people of all races had

773
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:23,479
Speaker 2: the vote was in Australia, Australian women absolutely in South

774
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 2: Australia by the eighteen nineties, men, women and Aboriginal people

775
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 2: they could all vote, they could all run for office.

776
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: And there's almost nowhere in the world at the time

777
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 2: where that was true.

778
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: What do you put that down to in your research?

779
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 2: There was a liberal humanity to modern Australia from the

780
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 2: very start. I mean the British government instructed Governor Phillip

781
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,760
Speaker 2: to live in amity with the natives. And when Governor

782
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 2: Phillip was speared at Manly Cove quite badly hurt at

783
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 2: Manly Cove on the search for Benelong, instead of mounting

784
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 2: a punitive rate and slaughtering all the Aboriginal people he

785
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 2: could find, Philip put it down to a misunderstanding and

786
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 2: Benelong eventually came back and continued to live with Philip

787
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,760
Speaker 2: at Government House and eventually went to England with Philip.

788
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,359
Speaker 2: When Philip went back in seventeen ninety two. So there

789
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: was a liberal humanity about Australia from the very beginning.

790
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 2: We should never forget that white men were hanged for

791
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 2: the murder of black people after the Mile Creek Massacre

792
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 2: as early as eighteen thirty eight. By the time the

793
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 2: free settler started to come in very large numbers the

794
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 2: eighteen twenties the eighteen thirties, Chartism was very much alive

795
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:54,320
Speaker 2: and well in England, and a lot of the free

796
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 2: settlers were highly influenced by that. Henry Parks in particular,

797
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: who became great statesman of nineteenth century New South Wales,

798
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 2: he was a Chartist originally. So there was a strong

799
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 2: instinct in colonial Australia for free institutions. Where Jack was

800
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 2: as good as his master. We were a fundamentally, we

801
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:25,280
Speaker 2: were fundamentally liberal societies.

802
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 3: Liberal you mean, you don't mean as a liberal party now,

803
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 3: you mean liberal thinking.

804
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 2: Liberal thinking, liberality if you like hu humanitarianism. Now, political

805
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 2: liberalism developed slightly differently in Victoria and in New South Wales. Liberalism.

806
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 2: Deacon liberalism in Victoria was statist liberalism. In order to

807
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 2: better secure human flourishing, we need a big state, Parks

808
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:06,439
Speaker 2: Bart Parks read, liberalism in New South Wales was more

809
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 2: small government liberalism. In order to secure human flourishing, we

810
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 2: need government to stay in its lane and allow individuals

811
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 2: the greatest possible freedom. So there were two strains, two

812
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 2: strands of liberalism in colonial Australia, but nevertheless it was

813
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 2: a fundamentally liberal project.

814
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 3: So in terms of we're talking on modern history, obviously,

815
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 3: how do you treat Indigenous Australia within the book?

816
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 2: Well, I say constantly in the book that modern Australia

817
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 2: rests on three pillars, an Indigenous heritage, a British foundation,

818
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 2: and an immigrant character. And I think that's unarguable. I

819
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 2: think these are simple facts that all must accept, how

820
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 2: much emphasis they wish to place on them as of

821
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 2: a question for people's individual judgments. But I think modern

822
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 2: Australia's I guess mindset owes something to the fatalism, the

823
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 2: laconic endurance of Aboriginal people. These days, it tends to

824
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 2: be very much portrayed as the horrible colonists, oppressing, exploiting,

825
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 2: and often enough killing the innocent Aboriginal people. That's a

826
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 2: total caricature of what happened. Let's take very early modern

827
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 2: Australia and its relationship with Aboriginal people. There was ben

828
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 2: Along who exemplified the cooperation between the settlers and Aboriginal people,

829
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 2: and then there was Pemlowi, who exemplified, if you like,

830
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 2: the conflict between settlers and Aboriginal people. The interesting thing

831
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 2: is that both Benelong and Pemelwe were respected and admired

832
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 2: by the best of the settlers. Pemeilwe was a warrior,

833
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 2: as was Benelong, but Pemilwe was a warrior who often

834
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 2: engaged in acts of violence against the settlers, for which

835
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 2: ultimately he was killed, but he was well respected. I

836
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 2: mean Governor King, who was the governor at the time

837
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 2: Pelwey was killed, said he was a stout fellow who

838
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 2: fought for his people. And as we as our history

839
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 2: develops and the great partial expansion takes place beyond the

840
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 2: Blue Mountains. Obviously on the frontiers there was tremendous conflict,

841
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 2: the mild Creek massacre simply being the best known instance

842
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 2: of a terrible conflict. But at the same time there

843
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 2: was also great cooperation. I mean, none of the explorers

844
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 2: would have got to where they got without Aboriginal guides.

845
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 2: None of the pastoralists would have been able to flourish

846
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 2: without Aboriginal stockmen and shepherds and so on. So this

847
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 2: idea that the history of Australia is of bloody conflict

848
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 2: between white and black, it's simply not true. There was

849
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 2: at least as much cooperation as there was conflict, and

850
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 2: at all times official Australia was determined to do the

851
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 2: right thing towards the Aboriginal people that every stressed were

852
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 2: as much British subjects as the white settlers were.

853
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 3: Do you think Australians, once I read your book should

854
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 3: be or maybe I'll put it another way, do you

855
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 3: think you're much proud of being Australia, being an Australian

856
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 3: as a result of writing a book.

857
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 2: Well, I think I had a strong sense of the

858
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 2: history already. In the course of writing the book, that

859
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 2: I was reminded of things that I'd forgotten, and I

860
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 2: discovered things that I didn't know. But I believe that

861
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 2: I had a strong sense of a history anyway, and

862
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 2: I certainly had a great pride in our country anyway.

863
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 4: Anything surprising, Well, figures who you hardly heard of suddenly

864
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 4: leap out of the page when you go into their

865
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 4: lives more deeply.

866
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 2: I mean, one person who I think should be better

867
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 2: known to contemporary Australians is John Plankett, who was the

868
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 2: first Attorney General of New South Wales. It was Plunkett

869
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 2: who insisted that the Mile Creek massacre perpetrators be put

870
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 2: on trial, and when the first jury refused to convict,

871
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 2: it was Plunkett who brought fresh charges against a slightly

872
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 2: lesser number of perpetrators and persuaded a couple of the

873
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 2: perpetrators to turn queen's evidence, and with another judge who

874
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 2: said it the second trial's close that this was an atrocity,

875
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 2: crying out to Heaven for justice. The second jury did

876
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 2: convict and seven of the perpetrators were subsequently hanged, which

877
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 2: was justice according to law in those days. Now, Plunkett

878
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 2: was an Irish Catholic with a strong sense of justice,

879
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 2: a strong sense of the universality of rights, and he

880
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 2: did a lot to try to ensure that the law

881
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 2: was and just fair, but was fairly applied in the colony.

882
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 2: And I think that he's a fragrant individual who deserves

883
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 2: to be much better remembered than he is.

884
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 3: You just talked about some pretty important words there, fairness, justice,

885
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 3: just to pick two. And you mentioned Irish Catholic, and

886
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 3: you know you're it's well known that you're a man

887
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 3: of faith and that you are and faith is really

888
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 3: important to you.

889
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 2: Don't put me on any pedestal of virtue, please.

890
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 3: But I'm not going to put you on a virtuous

891
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 3: And by the way, you know a lot of people

892
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 3: of people of faith, that's the last place I should

893
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 3: be put because sometimes they struggle, you know, with humanity

894
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 3: and faith and everything else. And one of the things

895
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 3: I've always wanted to ask someone like you, if you

896
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 3: don't mind me asking you, is how does somebody who

897
01:03:54,640 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 3: has a strong belief in their faith and probably turns

898
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 3: to their faith often and has been brought up in

899
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 3: that environment, how does something like you reconcile belief with

900
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 3: You're also many history with facts? How do you reconcile

901
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 3: those things?

902
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 1: You know? Do I believe in God?

903
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 3: But at the same time, I'm quite practical. I'm now

904
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 3: a person of history and I'm watching the facts and

905
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 3: I'm writing about the facts about the way things happened.

906
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: You know, how do you reconcile those two things?

907
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:40,320
Speaker 2: Well? Maybe I haven't thought deeply enough about it, Mark,

908
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 2: But I've got to say that I've never had a

909
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 2: particular problem. I think I guess the thing that most

910
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 2: perplexes people are most frequently perplexes people is the problem

911
01:04:55,720 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 2: of evil. How does a good God allow evil things

912
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 2: to have?

913
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: For example?

914
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 2: And I've always accepted that God gave human beings agency,

915
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 2: and often enough flawed agency values. Yeah, flawed infallible human

916
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:23,959
Speaker 2: beings will make bad choices, sometimes downright evil choices. And look,

917
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 2: he created a natural world where I suppose nature does

918
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:36,960
Speaker 2: things which hurt people, storms, floods, et cetera. But again,

919
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 2: this is the natural world that God created, and we

920
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 2: are in this natural world to make the best of things,

921
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 2: to make the most of things. And it's how we

922
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 2: handle the challenges that we face in our lives, which

923
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: I guess is the measure of us. And hopefully we'll

924
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 2: measure up and one day Saint Peter will welcome us

925
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 2: through the pearly gates.

926
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 3: Is well, because I often think about someone like Albert Einstein,

927
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:13,680
Speaker 3: who was a Jewish by faith and obviously lived by

928
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 3: that faith, but at the same time, you know, he

929
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 3: was pining on relativity and all sorts of formulas like

930
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 3: equals M three squared working out you know he didn't

931
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 3: quite get to this point, But did you know his

932
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 3: stuff led to sub atomic particles, and all of us

933
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 3: are made up of these little bits and pieces that

934
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 3: we can't even see or even contemplate.

935
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 2: But knowing do you think knowing more? Knowing more? I

936
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 2: think just adds to the sense.

937
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: Of war and wonder where did it start?

938
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 2: At, how at how it's all come about? And I

939
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:52,640
Speaker 2: guess I don't think something as incredible and as wonderful

940
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 2: as the natural world, and indeed the human world in

941
01:06:56,640 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 2: the units, happened by accident. I accept that at some

942
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 2: point in time a good God created all of this

943
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 2: and our challenges people who are in some way, and

944
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 2: the image of likeness of God is to be our

945
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 2: best selves, to come closer to being our best selves

946
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 2: every day?

947
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:23,000
Speaker 1: Does Tony Abbott ever struggle with these things?

948
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 3: Do you ever look at what's going on and say,

949
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 3: place where people are in terrible conditions and dying, do

950
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 3: you ever struggle with that?

951
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 2: Well? I lament it, But the struggle is to make

952
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 2: things better, not to despair. So I think the problem

953
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 2: with the problem with atheism, as I understand it, is

954
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 2: that it often leads people to despair, and despair can

955
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 2: lead people to suicide. It can lead lead people to

956
01:07:56,600 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 2: neglect of their fundamental responsibilities. And I mean, for instance,

957
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 2: how many atheist hospitals are there, how many atheist schools

958
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 2: are there. So much of the things that we value

959
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 2: and take for granted the product of religious endeavor, or

960
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 2: more broadly, the inspiration of religious faith. And I just

961
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 2: think that's almost self.

962
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:27,679
Speaker 1: Evident making things better.

963
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 3: Do you think that's one of the things that drove

964
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 3: Tony Abbott to one day become or want to become

965
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 3: the leader of this country.

966
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 2: Look, the Jesuits back in my day had this, if

967
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 2: you're like injunction to be a man for others. And

968
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 2: while there are all sorts of different and valid ways

969
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:52,439
Speaker 2: of being a man for others, I always thought that

970
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,400
Speaker 2: for me, being a man for others was making a

971
01:08:55,439 --> 01:09:00,640
Speaker 2: difference in as widespread a way as possible. And I

972
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 2: guess that's what led me into journalism and politics.

973
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:09,639
Speaker 1: In your book it's called Australia.

974
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 2: Australia a history can ask you about.

975
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: A history, not the history.

976
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 3: Was there some thought about which in definite article or

977
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:19,360
Speaker 3: definite article is going to put in front of the history,

978
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:21,679
Speaker 3: did you decide it should be a history? In other words,

979
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 3: it's an objective and not subjective.

980
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 2: Well, plainly, it is possible to put a different interpretation

981
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 2: on the same facts. I mean, for instance, let's take

982
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 2: fraguments sake the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The

983
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 2: American interpretation is that this was necessary to end the

984
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 2: most destructive war in history. I suspect the Japanese interpretation

985
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 2: is slightly different. Yes, although to the great credit of

986
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:51,520
Speaker 2: modern Japan.

987
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 1: They have accepted or reconciled that, And I.

988
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:03,440
Speaker 2: Reconciled very much to the Americans, and have greatly embraced

989
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 2: democracy and the rule of law and concepts of justice

990
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 2: and freedom and so on. So it was, in the end,

991
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 2: you're right, I thought a history was a better title

992
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 2: than the history.

993
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:19,920
Speaker 1: I know.

994
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 2: I accept that others might see things differently, but I

995
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 2: have tried to tell the story of Australia as objectively

996
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 2: as I can. And the subtitle how an ancient Land

997
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:37,840
Speaker 2: Became a Great Democracy, I think is an indication of

998
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 2: the fact that I, at at the very least want

999
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 2: to see our story as a glass half full rather

1000
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 2: than a glass half empty.

1001
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:53,799
Speaker 3: And do you think Tony Abbott today more mature past

1002
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 3: those periods in your life where you were a PM

1003
01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 3: and an active politician is a much more humble person.

1004
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:06,799
Speaker 3: It displays much more humility. Do you feel that about yourself?

1005
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 2: Well, Mark, I am a little reluctant to put tags

1006
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:13,720
Speaker 2: on myself because.

1007
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:15,160
Speaker 1: Well, how important is humility to you?

1008
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 2: Then? Well, humility is very important human quality, a very

1009
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 2: important human quality. And none of us like individuals who

1010
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 2: are full of themselves and who are self obsessed. And

1011
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 2: I would not want to claim to be free of

1012
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 2: the vice of self importance, but I certainly I dislike

1013
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:48,960
Speaker 2: it in others, and if it's present in myself, I

1014
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 2: should try to get rid of it.

1015
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 3: Well, my sense is that it's not present in yourself

1016
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,679
Speaker 3: in just in terms of this conversation. And I think

1017
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 3: as we get older, maybe only one of the few

1018
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,040
Speaker 3: bet of us getting on is a wisdom sort of

1019
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:05,720
Speaker 3: bestows a few of these things upon us, and we

1020
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:07,519
Speaker 3: start to be able to reflect on ourselves a bit

1021
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 3: better than we ever did when we were younger.

1022
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:13,240
Speaker 2: But I think I think some of us improve with

1023
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:19,719
Speaker 2: age because we become wiser and perhaps more compassionate, perhaps

1024
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 2: more sensitive, others become more impatient, more difficult. Perhaps in

1025
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 2: some ways we can be both deeper and less patient

1026
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 2: at the same time. I know I'm less patient now

1027
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,599
Speaker 2: that I was. I was probably never very patient.

1028
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 1: I'm the same. Are you still a member of the

1029
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 1: surf Club?

1030
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,759
Speaker 2: I am still. I'm a life member of our surf club.

1031
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 2: I haven't done patrols for a couple of years. The

1032
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:59,680
Speaker 2: pandemic and the fact that there were no patrols for

1033
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:07,280
Speaker 2: ridiculous reasons in twenty twenty two kind of that was

1034
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 2: the end of my patrolling. But I'm still a very

1035
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 2: active member of the rural Fire Service. I'm now a

1036
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,920
Speaker 2: member of two brigades, the Davidson Brigade, which I've been

1037
01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 2: in for twenty five years or more, and in more

1038
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 2: recent times I've become a member of the North arm

1039
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:24,960
Speaker 2: Cave Brigade up at Port Stevens.

1040
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 3: And famously you were, you know, the budget smugglers. Yeah,

1041
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 3: do you still get in your.

1042
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 1: Good man?

1043
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:35,800
Speaker 3: And do you ever I said to you earlier about

1044
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 3: the shirt fronting of Putin. I think that was for

1045
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 3: me one of the great moments in Austry politics.

1046
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 1: Do you think we don't get enough of that today.

1047
01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 2: Well, I wish I'd been able to do more than

1048
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:54,040
Speaker 2: just shirt front Putin, because Putin he's done monstrous things,

1049
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 2: absolutely monstrous things. I mean, the initial invasion of Ukraine

1050
01:13:57,520 --> 01:14:02,560
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen was was a horrible, horrible, active aggression,

1051
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 2: and what he's now embarked upon is effectively a campaign

1052
01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:10,639
Speaker 2: of extermination against the Ukrainian nation. And I just think

1053
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:15,599
Speaker 2: that's evil, absolutely evil, and it must be resisted. And

1054
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 2: I wish we were doing more to help the Ukrainians.

1055
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:22,479
Speaker 3: As an Australian. Yeah, me too, Well, Tony, it's been

1056
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:24,840
Speaker 3: a great pleasure. I'm good luck with the book mate.

1057
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:26,400
Speaker 3: I guess people can buy it on book Toby in

1058
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:29,000
Speaker 3: all the usual places, all usual places.

1059
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:31,519
Speaker 2: And there's a doco as well that they can get

1060
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 2: on the Sky website. They've got the foxtail app they

1061
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:36,760
Speaker 2: can get it through that.

1062
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:40,120
Speaker 1: The doco three part series, three part.

1063
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 2: Documentary is outstanding, wonderful.

1064
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:45,160
Speaker 1: I've actually listened on the radio.

1065
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 3: You can listen on the radios because what happens, the

1066
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 3: Sky plays it and you can actually listen to it

1067
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 3: as well on radio.

1068
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:52,599
Speaker 1: So I've been listening to it at night.

1069
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 2: But the pictures are worth watching too. I mean it's

1070
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 2: been it's beautifully done. Now the book, I take one

1071
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:04,680
Speaker 2: hundred percent responsibility for the doco I presented, and the

1072
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 2: doco was inspired by the book and it is faithful

1073
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:11,519
Speaker 2: to the book. But in the end the credit belongs

1074
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:14,559
Speaker 2: to Sky and the producer Alex Garipoli, who did just

1075
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:15,719
Speaker 2: the most wonderful job.

1076
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:17,920
Speaker 1: Is there many illustrations in the book.

1077
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 2: The book's got I think sixteen pages or something of

1078
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 2: photographs and if you want to get a rough idea

1079
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:28,640
Speaker 2: of where I'm going, flick through the photos because the

1080
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:32,760
Speaker 2: captions and the little narrations the bottom of the photos

1081
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 2: helps to tell the story.

1082
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:35,719
Speaker 1: Thanks for signing, Tony.

1083
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:38,639
Speaker 3: So this is the book How an Ancient Land Became

1084
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:41,240
Speaker 3: a Great Democracy Australia A history.

1085
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:43,400
Speaker 1: I really love the cover actually, and.

1086
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:45,360
Speaker 2: It's beautifully beautifully presented.

1087
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is something you should be proud of.

1088
01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:50,879
Speaker 3: Digital and audio book mate, I did in your voice.

1089
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 2: My voice. It was about twelve hours of Narrasian.

1090
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1091
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:56,240
Speaker 3: And it's quite hard, isn't it, Because you're sitting in

1092
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:59,639
Speaker 3: there as a dude in a box with a soundprov box.

1093
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 2: Stating telling you no, you didn't get that right. You're mumbled,

1094
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:06,080
Speaker 2: or I think you've mispronounced that word or something like that.

1095
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:06,799
Speaker 1: The word you wrote.

1096
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 3: And what's interesting too, when I have found I did

1097
01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:10,880
Speaker 3: it like again? I wonder what you found is that

1098
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 3: when you were reading aloud what you had written for

1099
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 3: someone to read, did you think to yourself at any stage, Wow,

1100
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:21,599
Speaker 3: maybe I could have changed it a little bit.

1101
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 2: Well, obviously, if you are writing for something to be read,

1102
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 2: that is often a bit different to writing for something

1103
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:39,879
Speaker 2: to be spoken. Ye, And occasionally I thought this sentence

1104
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 2: is a bit too long. It should have been broken

1105
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:48,040
Speaker 2: up for the purposes of the audio book. But I've

1106
01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 2: got to say there were fewer moments than I thought

1107
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:57,120
Speaker 2: there would be. When reading it out aloud, I felt

1108
01:16:57,360 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 2: that there was infelicity of one sort or other. I

1109
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 2: did come across one error, one a grageous error, which

1110
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 2: I like to think must have been the fault of

1111
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:12,120
Speaker 2: the publisher as opposed to the author. But nevertheless, I've

1112
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:14,840
Speaker 2: got to say that I think that it's come up

1113
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:18,840
Speaker 2: wonderfully well. The publishers have done a great job. The

1114
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:25,839
Speaker 2: cover is I think beautiful. Interestingly, Graham Edwards Peacock, the

1115
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:31,040
Speaker 2: artist whose painting forms the cover exemplifies if you like

1116
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:36,200
Speaker 2: the early Australian story. He was a lawyer in London

1117
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 2: who was sentenced to death for forgery. It was commuted

1118
01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:46,839
Speaker 2: to transportation for life. He gets to Port mcquarie because

1119
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:51,719
Speaker 2: of his education. He's immediately given a ticket of leave

1120
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:57,080
Speaker 2: and works in the administration of the penal settlement at

1121
01:17:57,120 --> 01:18:00,000
Speaker 2: Port mcquarie. He brings his family out to join him.

1122
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:06,479
Speaker 2: He then gets a job as effectively a meteorologist at

1123
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:11,080
Speaker 2: the south Head Weather Station and while there develops his

1124
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 2: skills as an artist, becomes one of our more notable

1125
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:18,960
Speaker 2: early colonial artists. And his work, as I said, a

1126
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:24,599
Speaker 2: dawns the cover. But he is typical of how people

1127
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:28,599
Speaker 2: made the most of their second chants, made the most

1128
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 2: of the opportunities that life in Australia gave them.

1129
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:33,600
Speaker 1: Thank God, because my mother's.

1130
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 3: One of my mother's family or mother's side, was on

1131
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:40,960
Speaker 3: the series and they first as you know that, they

1132
01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:45,080
Speaker 3: first arrived in south Head and stopped at place called

1133
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:45,759
Speaker 3: Camp Cove.

1134
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 2: And there's a plaque there marking the spot.

1135
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 3: And I live in the very first house ever building

1136
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:54,760
Speaker 3: Camp Cove in ninety six and it was given to

1137
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:59,880
Speaker 3: a Russian scientist because it was the first marine by

1138
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:04,280
Speaker 3: logical station in the Southern Hemisphere. And I feel as

1139
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:06,360
Speaker 3: though and the reason why I've always wanted to live

1140
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:09,000
Speaker 3: there is because of my mother's side of the family

1141
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:11,640
Speaker 3: first coming in on one of the ships.

1142
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,080
Speaker 2: Well, it's a wonderful place to live. I occasionally have

1143
01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:17,759
Speaker 2: a cup of coffee at Camp Cave when I'm cycling

1144
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:21,040
Speaker 2: around the Eastern Suburbs and it's a gorgeous spot.

1145
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 1: You're one of those guys.

1146
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:23,840
Speaker 3: I can hear get in there early in the morning

1147
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:26,840
Speaker 3: up the top there up the first place called green Point,

1148
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:29,479
Speaker 3: and I can hear voices. I'm going to be looking

1149
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:31,680
Speaker 3: out for we next so I'm going to come and say, hey, mate.

1150
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:33,719
Speaker 2: Could possibly be there on Saturday morning.

1151
01:19:34,040 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 1: I might see turning of it. A great pleasure, mate

1152
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:37,559
Speaker 2: Thank you make