1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: From the newsroom, A news still come to you. Gooday there, 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Bucklow. In today's episode, we are pulling back 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: the curtain on one of the most secretive programs in 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: the world, the Witness Protection Program. 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 2: We've felt hundreds of people in danger. We'll give you 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 2: a new name, a new job, new identities. 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: How does it work, who qualifies and what really happens 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: to those who disappear into witness protection? Well you are 9 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: about to find out. Allow me to introduce you now 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: to doctor Phil Kowalik. He was a serving officer in 11 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: the Australian Federal Police for more than thirty years and 12 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: he's a former director of the National Witness Protection Program. 13 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: Doctor Phil, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. 14 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:43,959 Speaker 2: No problem, thanks for having me. 15 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: I am fascinated by the Witness Protection program. So I 16 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: have so many questions for you. To begin with, if 17 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: you had to have a rough guess a ballpark figure, 18 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: how many people do you think would actually be in 19 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: witness protection here in Australia. 20 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 3: Oh look, that's really difficult to say because to the 21 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 3: state's run their own programs as well. Some use the 22 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 3: National Witness Protection Program, but most of the larger states 23 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 3: run their own and it's very difficult to get any 24 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 3: sort of figures at all, But it might be as 25 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 3: many as thirty or forty a year. And that's just 26 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 3: a guess because, as I said, I can't get access 27 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 3: to accurate data. 28 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: What are the requirements to be considered for witness protection? 29 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 3: Firstly, that you're able to give or that the persons 30 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 3: able to give evidence on behalf of the crown in 31 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 3: generally serious and organized crime matters, That there's a high 32 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 3: prospect or a reasonable prospect of successful prosecution. 33 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 2: That the person is under a real threat. 34 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 3: To their lives if they do give evidence, and that 35 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 3: they've got something of value to say. 36 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: And who are the people traditionally that end up in 37 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: witness protection program? Are we talking about in Romans people 38 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: who want to dib on bikis or stuff like that, 39 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: or victims of serious crimes or are there a lot 40 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: of actual criminals who get put into witness protection? 41 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 3: To answer that, truthfully, it could be anybody from any 42 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 3: part of society who's witnessed to crime and has valuable 43 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 3: evidence to provide to authorities. 44 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: So what is the process once you get accepted into 45 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: the program, what happens next? 46 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 3: Reidentification and relocation are the key limbs of the program, 47 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 3: if you like. So somebody that's been accepted into the 48 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 3: program will be taken away from their existing environment. There's 49 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 3: a lot of processes that have undertaken to separate the 50 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 3: person from their history in their original name. They're reidentified 51 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 3: and moved to another location, whether that be in another 52 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 3: state or offshore where the authority it is in this 53 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 3: case with the National program, where the AFP is confident 54 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 3: that they'll be at least as safe as possible. There's 55 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 3: a lot of additional support that's given to people coming 56 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 3: into the program because you can understand being removed from 57 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 3: family and friends and. 58 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: Work and you have to give up everything. 59 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 3: The social dislocation that happens to somebody coming to a 60 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: witness protection program is massive. So there's a lot of support, 61 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 3: including psychological support, provided to participants in witness protection programs, 62 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 3: whether it's the national program or one of the state programs. 63 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: And how do they explain the fact that they just 64 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: have to disappear from their old life. Is it explained 65 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: or do they just go missing one day or do 66 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: they have to make up a backstory that they got 67 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: killed or something like. 68 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 3: That to family and friends. There's an acknowledgment that for 69 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 3: some people they need to be told that the person's 70 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: assisting police and that they won't be contactable other than 71 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 3: through the police for a period of time. 72 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: In terms of new identities, I imagine everyone gets a new 73 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: backstory that they have to learn that must be incredibly tough. 74 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: How detailed is that backstory? 75 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 3: Well, it's got to stand up to scrutiny, and it 76 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 3: becomes very tough for participants in the program who may 77 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 3: not be one hundred percent committed to the story and 78 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 3: to what they've got to do. It's extremely difficult for 79 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 3: younger people. I'm talking here about children of participants. It's 80 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 3: again extremely difficult for anybody who has a social media 81 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 3: presence who are to adopt a new life, a new legend, 82 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 3: if you like, a new history for themselves and to 83 00:04:59,560 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 3: stick to. 84 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: I didn't even think about that. I mean, say I 85 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: was twenty five years old, I've probably got about ten 86 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: years of photos of me on social media, and then 87 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: anyone in your new life could potentially see those photos 88 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: and realize that you are not who you say you are. 89 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, potentially, And that's one of the problems that witness 90 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 3: protection programs. Face is how do you conceal somebody who 91 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 3: does have significantly linked the history on social media? 92 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: Are people allowed to take a loved one with them 93 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: when they get accepted into the program. So they have 94 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: a spouse, do they get to take them with them 95 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: or do they have to stay behind? 96 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 3: No, it's normally the family unit. So if it's if 97 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 3: it's a person with a spouse and children, it's normally 98 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: the family units that's taken into the program. So that 99 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 3: adds complexity to the reidentification and relocation. 100 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: And what are the rules for the people who get 101 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: accepted into the program. I'm assuming they're obviously not allowed 102 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: to contact anyone from their old life, but what else. 103 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: I look, they signed a memorandum of understanding when they 104 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 3: go into the program, and the MoU sets out all 105 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 3: the obligations, and they can't contact people that they were 106 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 3: previously associated with. They can't go back to their previous locations, 107 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 3: they can't go back to their previous lives. A lot 108 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 3: of arrangements are put into place to enable things like 109 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: conferencing before trial. There's significant security operations that are put 110 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 3: into place for presentation of a participant in a program 111 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 3: as a witness that trial or at committal. As I said, 112 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 3: it's complete social dislocation. So it means they've got to 113 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 3: give up everything they knew in the past and live 114 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 3: everything that they've agreed to in the future, so that 115 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: new legend or that new history. 116 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: When someone's accepted into the program and relocated, do they 117 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: have a protection officer with them in their new area 118 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: or nearby? At all times? 119 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 3: They have contact with what we call their case officer, 120 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 3: and their case officer provides sometimes close and sometimes remote 121 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 3: support for them. 122 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: And this is probably something from the movies. Do they 123 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: get panic buttons or anything like. 124 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 3: That straight out of the movies. There's a number of 125 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 3: mechanisms that are used to enable the participant to contact 126 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 3: their case officer if they need to stick around. 127 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: More fascinating details from doctor Phil in just a moment 128 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: Welcome back. I'm chatting to the former director of Australia's 129 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: National Witness Protection Program now, doctor Phil. When someone gets 130 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: relocated and given a new identity, are they allowed to 131 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: work or do they just get given an allowance? 132 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 3: They're allowed to work and they're encouraged to get back 133 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 3: into the commune unity and into society. In their new 134 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 3: location reasonably quickly, because that then helps them to re 135 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 3: establish themselves. And if they do it right, it's almost like, well, 136 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 3: I used to live in regional South Australia and now 137 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 3: I've moved to regional Queensland because of job opportunities or whatever. 138 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: You know, you look for. 139 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 3: Places that enable a believable story as to why the 140 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 3: person might have moved from somewhere else to there, something 141 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 3: that will be accepted by others in the community. But yes, 142 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 3: they're encouraged to get into employment and start to rebuild 143 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 3: their lives in the new community as quickly as they can. 144 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: How long does someone typically stay in witness protection? Is 145 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: this a lifelong thing or just until a trial is over? 146 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: That's an interesting thing. 147 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 3: It's a voluntary program, so they can leave at any time. 148 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 3: They can also be removed from the program if they 149 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 3: fail to to meet their obligations, but generally in the 150 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 3: mainstream program it's while over there's core commitments and appeals 151 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 3: in place. They are generally signed out of the program 152 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 3: after that, but obviously they retain their new identity and 153 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 3: their new locations, and if they are compromised, then the 154 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 3: officials managing the program will generally swing into action again 155 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 3: and provide a new assistance. 156 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask about that. I mean, from your 157 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 1: time with the National Witness Protection Program, were any people compromised? 158 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: Did they get tracked down by the people looking for them? 159 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 3: Generally it's an accidental compromise, or it's a compromise that 160 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 3: comes about because the person themselves has gone somewhere they 161 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 3: shouldn't have, or contacted somebody they shouldn't have. But it 162 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 3: does happen. 163 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, Doctor phil this has been a fascinating for me. 164 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to put you on spot now. If you 165 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: had to boil down your whole career with the National 166 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: Witness Protection Program and pick one story, one stand out story, 167 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: what would it be. 168 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 3: I can't tell you about the details of the matter, 169 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 3: but I can tell you how the Witness Protection Program 170 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 3: changed the lives of one family that I looked after. 171 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: Please. 172 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 3: I was the case officer for a particular group. They'd 173 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 3: been in the program for a short while before or 174 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 3: I went into the program to work. They'd had a 175 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 3: significant criminal history in the past. Over the years that 176 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 3: I was involved with them, there was no reoffending, and 177 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: after they left the program they rang me a number 178 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 3: of times just to let me know that they were 179 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 3: going well and that they were well settled in their 180 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 3: new names, in their new location. So you know, that's 181 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 3: a real success story. The criminal matters were dealt with 182 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 3: through the courts, the appeal processes would dealt with, but 183 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 3: for these folk not to ever have reoffended again is 184 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: quite a nice story. 185 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: I think that's awesome. But doctor Phil, it is a 186 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: fascinating job that you previously had. Thank you so much 187 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: for taking the time to tell news dot com dot 188 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: are you about it? 189 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: Thanks very much for your time. 190 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: I honestly hope I never end up in witness protection 191 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: because I cannot keep a secret to save myself, which 192 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: is kind of the point of witness protection, So rip me. 193 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: I guess all right. Thank you so much for listening. 194 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: I'll chat to you again tomorrow. Follow or subscribe to 195 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: from the newsroom wherever you get your podcasts.