Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago, the ABC released this reimagining
Speaker 1: of the classic Quantus ad.
Speaker 2: I've presents like Ball from Carbontic Cleveland Sumps like Gunland film.
Speaker 1: It's a confronting reminder that in Australia, children as young
Speaker 1: as ten years old are behind bars. It comes as
Speaker 1: more than one hundred countries have questioned Australia at the
Speaker 1: United Nations on our record of locking up kids, the
Speaker 1: overwhelming majority of whom are Indigenous. For a nation that
Speaker 1: claims moral leadership on human rights, the scrutiny now facing
Speaker 1: Australia is deeply shameful and impossible to ignore. The tough
Speaker 1: on crime agendas. Are several states and territory governments risk
Speaker 1: undermining Australia's reputation when it comes to the way we
Speaker 1: treat our own children. I'm Daniel James and you're listening
Speaker 1: to seven AM today. CEO Changed the Record Jade Lane
Speaker 1: and CEO of Human Rights Law Center, Caitlin Raga on
Speaker 1: Australia standing on the world stage and why so many
Speaker 1: Australian children call prison home. It's Monday, February two. Jade,
Speaker 1: thanks for joining us. I'm sure you weren't surprised that
Speaker 1: forty countries are calling on Australia to raise the age
Speaker 1: of criminal responsibility. So how many kids are locked up
Speaker 1: in Australia and who are they?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, at the moment, our First Nations kids make
Speaker 3: up the majority of kids that are in Australia ages
Speaker 3: ten to seventeen. So we've got alarmingly in Queensland and
Speaker 3: Northern Territory ninety to ninety nine percent of the kids
Speaker 3: that are in lock up our First nation's children. There's
Speaker 3: no sign that these numbers are going to stop because
Speaker 3: as we progress with these harsh on crime and harsh
Speaker 3: on youth crime laws, it's just going to keep increasing.
Speaker 4: Children need to face consequences when they do the wrong thing.
Speaker 4: If you violate the sanctity of someone's home, can you
Speaker 4: break in and rob them?
Speaker 5: Well atult crime atult time.
Speaker 4: I believe very strongly that the police need every tool
Speaker 4: in their toolkit to address youth crime to make sure
Speaker 4: that they can reduce.
Speaker 1: Why are there so many Aboriginal Entaristraatetland to teach in prison?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a great question and one that
Speaker 3: you know, people need to start having a discussion about.
Speaker 3: We know that you know, children aren't inherently bad any
Speaker 3: child in reality, it is because these sort of racist
Speaker 3: and archaic laws are targeting our children. We know our
Speaker 3: children are over surveillanced and over policed and they are
Speaker 3: ultimately being criminalized just for being children and for being
Speaker 3: First Nations children.
Speaker 1: Eighty percent of the kids locked up haven't even been
Speaker 1: So how does that happen?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean the simple answer to that is
Speaker 3: they're being arbitrarily detained and we know that this is
Speaker 3: a violation of their human rights, you know, and the
Speaker 3: UN sent out a delegation, So Australia actually had a
Speaker 3: delegation from the UN visit us very recently on arbitrary
Speaker 3: detention of people in Australia. There's a huge majority of
Speaker 3: children sitting in prison on remand and for an extended
Speaker 3: period of time. The UN delegation actually went to visit
Speaker 3: the Northern Territory and you remember this, our federal government
Speaker 3: invited them here and the Northern Territory actually refused to
Speaker 3: allow them access to the detention centers, which I think
Speaker 3: speaks volumes.
Speaker 6: The United Nations has suspended its anti torture mission to
Speaker 6: Australia after its inspectors were refused entry at several jails.
Speaker 6: Now the inspectors needed to visit detention facilities to monitor
Speaker 6: and prevent brutality.
Speaker 3: It's quite embarrassing and humiliating for Australia being some of
Speaker 3: the only countries that have ever refused to allow a
Speaker 3: UN delegation access to have a look of facilities.
Speaker 1: And this u N review also heard evidence from the
Speaker 1: UN Committee Against Torture. What are you hearing personally from
Speaker 1: children and from families about the conditions of that some
Speaker 1: of these kids are facing in some of these places.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it is horrific you think about children
Speaker 3: as young as ten being placed into these really you know,
Speaker 3: just clinical, awful settings.
Speaker 1: And I've heard.
Speaker 3: Stories from children about being left in darkness for days.
Speaker 3: Anyone that has children, you know, children go to bed
Speaker 3: cuddling a toy, they want a door open, they don't
Speaker 3: like the dark and our children are being left in
Speaker 3: the darkness for days. And that's first hand accounts from
Speaker 3: children and from workers as well.
Speaker 1: So they're the conditions that the kids face. What about
Speaker 1: kids being separated or segregated from society, excluded from community
Speaker 1: and culture, what does that separation do them?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean I think this is a great
Speaker 3: point to touch on in terms of how these laws
Speaker 3: are passing at the moment, which completely ignore any evidence.
Speaker 3: The Royal Australian College of Physicians and so many other
Speaker 3: experts can tell you that this is not going to
Speaker 3: help children, not only separating them from society generally, but
Speaker 3: particularly for First Nations children who are then excluded from
Speaker 3: accessing their culture, their community and being on country. The
Speaker 3: deepening of the harm and the trauma that that extends
Speaker 3: to them is just beyond measurable. It's a cycle that
Speaker 3: then impacts them for the rest of their lives. And
Speaker 3: we know that in the evidence, if the child comes
Speaker 3: into contact with the castural system early in their life,
Speaker 3: they're more than likely going to come back into contact
Speaker 3: with it again.
Speaker 1: So what does an alternative to that look like to
Speaker 1: stop the cycle?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, ultimately, First Nations people and communities have
Speaker 3: had the solutions for many, many years. There's lots of
Speaker 3: different community initiatives and this is kind of what also
Speaker 3: makes the detention of these children arbitrary because where there
Speaker 3: are other alternatives, why would you go to lock them
Speaker 3: up as a first response? We're kind of facing this
Speaker 3: embedded stolen generation's approach to protectionism of our children, which
Speaker 3: is totally unneeded and unnecessary.
Speaker 1: And finally, Jada, questioning two parts, how a shame should
Speaker 1: Australia be to be called out the world stage in
Speaker 1: this way? And do you think Australia is actually capable
Speaker 1: of feeling shame when it comes to this issue.
Speaker 3: I mean, particularly as a country that seems to present
Speaker 3: itself and a lot of its citizens consider Australia to
Speaker 3: be a champion of human rights, to be at the
Speaker 3: forefront of protecting and upholding human rights, incredibly incredibly shameful. Surely,
Speaker 3: the measure of your humanity is how you treat your children,
Speaker 3: and at the moment in our society, our children are
Speaker 3: being treated very poorly. You know, we've mentioned torture, we've
Speaker 3: mentioned detaining children as young as ten and throwing them
Speaker 3: in prison. There is room to act. Our federal government
Speaker 3: can act on these things very easily.
Speaker 4: They have the power.
Speaker 3: It would be as simple as legislating some national minimum
Speaker 3: standards around youth justice and raising the age being obviously
Speaker 3: the number one and easiest thing that they could do nationally.
Speaker 1: Jade, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Coming up how the States youth crime obsession is making
Speaker 1: things worse Caitlin. Last week Australia front of the UN
Speaker 1: in Geneva to defend its human rights obligations in front
Speaker 1: of one hundred and twenty countries and they pointed to
Speaker 1: our record of locking up children and indigenous people. So
Speaker 1: how did it unfold?
Speaker 4: So this is a process that runs every four and
Speaker 4: a half years where every member of the UN goes
Speaker 4: before the Human Rights Council in Geneva and has its
Speaker 4: human rights record examined by its peers. So it's called
Speaker 4: the Universal Periodic Review. This is Australia's fourth time going
Speaker 4: through the process and really it's a look at how
Speaker 4: much we are actually implementing in our domestic law and
Speaker 4: policy at home the obligations that we've signed up up
Speaker 4: to internationally to protect people's rights. Australia has a fairly
Speaker 4: good record of signing up to the international treaties, but
Speaker 4: there's a big gap sometimes between what actually then happens
Speaker 4: in terms of implementing those into our domestic law.
Speaker 7: However, Germany remains concerned that criminal responsibility starts at only
Speaker 7: ten years of age and almost all Australian states and territories. Furthermore,
Speaker 7: Germany is concerned about Australia's continued use of offshore processing
Speaker 7: in order to address a regular immigration.
Speaker 1: So we've got a bit of a dressing down at
Speaker 1: the UN. How did Australia respond to that dressing down?
Speaker 4: Well, it's a very un dressing down. Very constructive dialogue
Speaker 4: is the official term for it. So it's really focused
Speaker 4: on recommendations of what we can do to improve our record.
Speaker 4: But underlying that, of course is the suggestion that we're
Speaker 4: not meeting our responsibilities currently and the things that came
Speaker 4: out that many countries were then asking the probe questions
Speaker 4: about First Nations rights being the top of the list,
Speaker 4: our treatment of asylum seekers and particularly the use of
Speaker 4: offshore processing for people arriving in the country. Gender based
Speaker 4: violence came out. They were the really dominant thing.
Speaker 7: Take further measures to ensure that all cases of gender
Speaker 7: based violence, particularly against Indigenous women and girls, are investigating perpetrators.
Speaker 1: Held the condess the overrepresentation of First Nations people in prisons,
Speaker 1: including by identifying.
Speaker 4: Probably the other piece that has to underpin all of this,
Speaker 4: and that is one of our clearest failings and gaps
Speaker 4: is that we don't have clear legal human rights protections
Speaker 4: in Australia. I don't have a federal human Rights Act
Speaker 4: and that was repeatedly called out by a number of countries.
Speaker 5: Estonia recommends to Australia to one enact a national Human
Speaker 5: Rights Act to raise thee of criminal responsibility to at
Speaker 5: least fourteen years with old exceptions in load with international but.
Speaker 4: Within that also child rights, so particularly the age of
Speaker 4: criminal responsibility and the fact that we still lock up
Speaker 4: ten year olds which disproportionately overlaps then with First Nations communities.
Speaker 1: How do we compare to other countries when it comes
Speaker 1: to incarcerating children.
Speaker 4: We are well behind most other comparative liberal democracies. You know,
Speaker 4: fourteen is really the absolute minimum that children should be
Speaker 4: held criminally responsible under human rights law. And the fact
Speaker 4: that we have most jurisdictions around Australia well below that,
Speaker 4: going down to ten even twelve, and we don't have
Speaker 4: this protected even at the federal level, so we are
Speaker 4: an outlier in this regard. The Australian government will work
Speaker 4: closely with states and territories to consider any recommendations that
Speaker 4: fall within their constitutional responsibility, and.
Speaker 1: Part of Australia's defense when it comes to criminal laws
Speaker 1: and the criminal justice system in particular, was to point
Speaker 1: to the responsibility of states and territories in that role.
Speaker 1: Is that a fair session to make.
Speaker 4: That was definitely part of the government delegations explanation and
Speaker 4: response was the complexity of our federal system under international
Speaker 4: law that is utterly irrelevant. Many countries have federal jurisdictions,
Speaker 4: but your obligation as an entire nation state under your
Speaker 4: human rights law obligations are to make sure that this
Speaker 4: is implemented. So it really does mean that these responsibilities
Speaker 4: to uphold people's rights flow through from the federal government
Speaker 4: who has the power to make the treaties, but they
Speaker 4: go through consultation processes with the states before they do that,
Speaker 4: and the states then also have a responsibility to ensure
Speaker 4: that Australia is complying with its responsibilities, but ultimately to
Speaker 4: making sure that it's protecting everybody's human rights. So it's
Speaker 4: not a defense in any way. It actually shows that
Speaker 4: those obligations flow all the way through to all levels
Speaker 4: of government in the country.
Speaker 1: The UN says Australia should adopt a human rights Act.
Speaker 1: How would that work?
Speaker 4: Well, it's not just the UN Human Rights Council that's
Speaker 4: saying that, it's also the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human
Speaker 4: Rights that did an extensive consultation and review about eighteen
Speaker 4: months ago. The first recommendation was to implement a federal
Speaker 4: Human Rights Act. So far the government has not yet
Speaker 4: responded to that Committee inquiry report. It's the missing piece
Speaker 4: in our foundational legal structure, in our overall framework. We
Speaker 4: don't have anything at national level that binds that all
Speaker 4: together in terms of making sure that all public decision
Speaker 4: makers take into account before they make their decisions, whether
Speaker 4: that's to introduce new laws or policies or service delivery,
Speaker 4: about how will this impact on people's rights and if
Speaker 4: people's rights are going to be restricted, then that needs
Speaker 4: to be balanced and done in a proportionate and appropriate way,
Speaker 4: not done on the fly, not done at hoc. And
Speaker 4: we only have that currently in Victoria the Act and
Speaker 4: Queensland that do have human Rights acts in place. So
Speaker 4: that's really what's missing and it would be the obvious
Speaker 4: next step for the Urban Ezic government to take.
Speaker 1: So the federal government doesn't have a plan to bring
Speaker 1: in a human Rights Act at this particular time on
Speaker 1: a state level, that we have also seen the popularity
Speaker 1: of reforms like tougher bail laws at old time for
Speaker 1: adult crime. So how do we bust out of this
Speaker 1: spiral we get ourselves into when it comes to locking
Speaker 1: children up, reinforcing patterns of detention for young people in particular,
Speaker 1: how do we bust ourselves out of that cycle when
Speaker 1: there is no political will, particularly at the state and
Speaker 1: territory level to do so.
Speaker 4: Look, I mean, law and order politics are definitely something
Speaker 4: that we're seeing take hold in so many places, and
Speaker 4: they're easy, they're easy and lean into where people's conserve
Speaker 4: and fears are. But at the same time, we know
Speaker 4: that they don't actually make communities safer. And the point
Speaker 4: of having these sort of human rights legal frameworks is
Speaker 4: that human rights actually gives us a guidance and a
Speaker 4: roadmap for how to find the right balance and not
Speaker 4: doing knee jerk responses after something terrible has happened, which
Speaker 4: is what led to Victoria's vail laws, for example, being
Speaker 4: drastically tightened up. Contrary to human rights, it's more a
Speaker 4: question of political priority at the moment and the concerns
Speaker 4: people have in the community at the moment, around cost
Speaker 4: of living, around housing crisis, around racism, around not feeling engaged.
Speaker 4: They all connect to human rights principles and so really
Speaker 4: human rights is about everyone has the right to education,
Speaker 4: to a habitable house, to a decent standard of living,
Speaker 4: and really it's about connecting and showing that these are
Speaker 4: the issues that Australians actually care about. They are things
Speaker 4: that have been highlighted in Royal commissions, from robodebt to
Speaker 4: aged care, to disability and human rights actually provides a
Speaker 4: framework for guiding whichever government is in power on how
Speaker 4: to respond to that in a way that takes people's
Speaker 4: concerns seriously.
Speaker 1: Caitlin, thank you so much for your time. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Also in the news, Queensland Senator Matt Canavan says he
Speaker 1: won't be challenging David Little Proud for the Nationals leadership.
Speaker 1: A spill is expected to take place today after Rogue
Speaker 1: Natz and p Column Boyce announced plans to put his
Speaker 1: name forward for the top drop. Boyce accepts he doesn't
Speaker 1: have the numbers to win, but insists both Little Proud
Speaker 1: and Liberal leader Susan Lee need to go in order
Speaker 1: for the parties to rebuild and criminals will no longer
Speaker 1: be able to leverage glowing character references to reduce their sentences.
Speaker 1: Under changes of being introduced in New South Wales this week,
Speaker 1: the state will become the first in the country to
Speaker 1: prevent good character been considered during sentencing hearings for all
Speaker 1: criminal offenses. The move has been heralded by survivors of
Speaker 1: sexual abuse as a monumental shift. I'm Daniel James. You'll
Speaker 1: be listening to seven AM. We'll be back tomorrow.