WEBVTT - The national shame of locking up 10 year olds 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:03.640 A couple of weeks ago, the ABC released this reimagining 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:05.080 of the classic Quantus ad. 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:19.239 I've presents like Ball from Carbontic Cleveland Sumps like Gunland film. 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.360 It's a confronting reminder that in Australia, children as young 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.680 as ten years old are behind bars. It comes as 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.240 more than one hundred countries have questioned Australia at the 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.840 United Nations on our record of locking up kids, the 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:42.360 overwhelming majority of whom are Indigenous. For a nation that 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.960 claims moral leadership on human rights, the scrutiny now facing 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:50.480 Australia is deeply shameful and impossible to ignore. The tough 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.760 on crime agendas. Are several states and territory governments risk 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.880 undermining Australia's reputation when it comes to the way we 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:01.960 treat our own children. I'm Daniel James and you're listening 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:06.520 to seven AM today. CEO Changed the Record Jade Lane 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:09.880 and CEO of Human Rights Law Center, Caitlin Raga on 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.800 Australia standing on the world stage and why so many 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:25.480 Australian children call prison home. It's Monday, February two. Jade, 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.399 thanks for joining us. I'm sure you weren't surprised that 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.399 forty countries are calling on Australia to raise the age 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:35.040 of criminal responsibility. So how many kids are locked up 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:36.560 in Australia and who are they? 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.959 Yeah, so, at the moment, our First Nations kids make 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:43.920 up the majority of kids that are in Australia ages 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:49.120 ten to seventeen. So we've got alarmingly in Queensland and 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.400 Northern Territory ninety to ninety nine percent of the kids 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.480 that are in lock up our First nation's children. There's 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:57.720 no sign that these numbers are going to stop because 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:00.960 as we progress with these harsh on crime and harsh 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.440 on youth crime laws, it's just going to keep increasing. 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:09.919 Children need to face consequences when they do the wrong thing. 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.640 If you violate the sanctity of someone's home, can you 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:14.799 break in and rob them? 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.320 Well atult crime atult time. 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:20.000 I believe very strongly that the police need every tool 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:23.880 in their toolkit to address youth crime to make sure 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:25.160 that they can reduce. 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:29.120 Why are there so many Aboriginal Entaristraatetland to teach in prison? 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:31.280 Yeah, I think it's a great question and one that 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:33.959 you know, people need to start having a discussion about. 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.880 We know that you know, children aren't inherently bad any 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.880 child in reality, it is because these sort of racist 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.720 and archaic laws are targeting our children. We know our 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.560 children are over surveillanced and over policed and they are 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.720 ultimately being criminalized just for being children and for being 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:53.760 First Nations children. 0:02:57.480 --> 0:02:59.799 Eighty percent of the kids locked up haven't even been 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.040 So how does that happen? 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.640 Yeah, well, I mean the simple answer to that is 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.080 they're being arbitrarily detained and we know that this is 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.400 a violation of their human rights, you know, and the 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:15.600 UN sent out a delegation, So Australia actually had a 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.960 delegation from the UN visit us very recently on arbitrary 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:23.040 detention of people in Australia. There's a huge majority of 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.920 children sitting in prison on remand and for an extended 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:32.120 period of time. The UN delegation actually went to visit 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.360 the Northern Territory and you remember this, our federal government 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.280 invited them here and the Northern Territory actually refused to 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.680 allow them access to the detention centers, which I think 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:43.440 speaks volumes. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.680 The United Nations has suspended its anti torture mission to 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.400 Australia after its inspectors were refused entry at several jails. 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.920 Now the inspectors needed to visit detention facilities to monitor 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:54.960 and prevent brutality. 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:59.920 It's quite embarrassing and humiliating for Australia being some of 0:03:59.920 --> 0:04:03.440 the only countries that have ever refused to allow a 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:05.920 UN delegation access to have a look of facilities. 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.520 And this u N review also heard evidence from the 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:13.880 UN Committee Against Torture. What are you hearing personally from 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.680 children and from families about the conditions of that some 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:18.840 of these kids are facing in some of these places. 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:24.200 Yeah, I mean it is horrific you think about children 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:28.560 as young as ten being placed into these really you know, 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.359 just clinical, awful settings. 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:32.360 And I've heard. 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.680 Stories from children about being left in darkness for days. 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.280 Anyone that has children, you know, children go to bed 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.479 cuddling a toy, they want a door open, they don't 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.560 like the dark and our children are being left in 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.200 the darkness for days. And that's first hand accounts from 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.320 children and from workers as well. 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.240 So they're the conditions that the kids face. What about 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:57.560 kids being separated or segregated from society, excluded from community 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.520 and culture, what does that separation do them? 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:02.320 Yeah, and I mean I think this is a great 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.880 point to touch on in terms of how these laws 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.240 are passing at the moment, which completely ignore any evidence. 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:11.599 The Royal Australian College of Physicians and so many other 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.839 experts can tell you that this is not going to 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:19.360 help children, not only separating them from society generally, but 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.520 particularly for First Nations children who are then excluded from 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.919 accessing their culture, their community and being on country. The 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.240 deepening of the harm and the trauma that that extends 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:34.280 to them is just beyond measurable. It's a cycle that 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.920 then impacts them for the rest of their lives. And 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.279 we know that in the evidence, if the child comes 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:41.560 into contact with the castural system early in their life, 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:43.720 they're more than likely going to come back into contact 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:44.279 with it again. 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.320 So what does an alternative to that look like to 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:48.239 stop the cycle? 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.960 Yeah, I mean, ultimately, First Nations people and communities have 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.560 had the solutions for many, many years. There's lots of 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.919 different community initiatives and this is kind of what also 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.640 makes the detention of these children arbitrary because where there 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:06.280 are other alternatives, why would you go to lock them 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:10.320 up as a first response? We're kind of facing this 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:16.839 embedded stolen generation's approach to protectionism of our children, which 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:18.920 is totally unneeded and unnecessary. 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.520 And finally, Jada, questioning two parts, how a shame should 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.080 Australia be to be called out the world stage in 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.240 this way? And do you think Australia is actually capable 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.840 of feeling shame when it comes to this issue. 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.839 I mean, particularly as a country that seems to present 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.800 itself and a lot of its citizens consider Australia to 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.000 be a champion of human rights, to be at the 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:52.480 forefront of protecting and upholding human rights, incredibly incredibly shameful. Surely, 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:57.080 the measure of your humanity is how you treat your children, 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.440 and at the moment in our society, our children are 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.920 being treated very poorly. You know, we've mentioned torture, we've 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.599 mentioned detaining children as young as ten and throwing them 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:10.679 in prison. There is room to act. Our federal government 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.000 can act on these things very easily. 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:14.040 They have the power. 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.680 It would be as simple as legislating some national minimum 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:21.240 standards around youth justice and raising the age being obviously 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.600 the number one and easiest thing that they could do nationally. 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:27.280 Jade, thank you so much for your time. 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:28.440 Thank you so much. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.880 Coming up how the States youth crime obsession is making 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:43.360 things worse Caitlin. Last week Australia front of the UN 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.520 in Geneva to defend its human rights obligations in front 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.200 of one hundred and twenty countries and they pointed to 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.000 our record of locking up children and indigenous people. So 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:54.360 how did it unfold? 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.280 So this is a process that runs every four and 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:01.559 a half years where every member of the UN goes 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.680 before the Human Rights Council in Geneva and has its 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:08.040 human rights record examined by its peers. So it's called 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:12.080 the Universal Periodic Review. This is Australia's fourth time going 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:16.440 through the process and really it's a look at how 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.000 much we are actually implementing in our domestic law and 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.600 policy at home the obligations that we've signed up up 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.720 to internationally to protect people's rights. Australia has a fairly 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.800 good record of signing up to the international treaties, but 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.480 there's a big gap sometimes between what actually then happens 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.559 in terms of implementing those into our domestic law. 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:40.520 However, Germany remains concerned that criminal responsibility starts at only 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.559 ten years of age and almost all Australian states and territories. Furthermore, 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:48.199 Germany is concerned about Australia's continued use of offshore processing 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.679 in order to address a regular immigration. 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:53.040 So we've got a bit of a dressing down at 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.600 the UN. How did Australia respond to that dressing down? 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:01.920 Well, it's a very un dressing down. Very constructive dialogue 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:05.199 is the official term for it. So it's really focused 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.760 on recommendations of what we can do to improve our record. 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.480 But underlying that, of course is the suggestion that we're 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.240 not meeting our responsibilities currently and the things that came 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.640 out that many countries were then asking the probe questions 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.720 about First Nations rights being the top of the list, 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.240 our treatment of asylum seekers and particularly the use of 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:30.120 offshore processing for people arriving in the country. Gender based 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.880 violence came out. They were the really dominant thing. 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.920 Take further measures to ensure that all cases of gender 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:43.120 based violence, particularly against Indigenous women and girls, are investigating perpetrators. 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:47.360 Held the condess the overrepresentation of First Nations people in prisons, 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.079 including by identifying. 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.559 Probably the other piece that has to underpin all of this, 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:56.120 and that is one of our clearest failings and gaps 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.240 is that we don't have clear legal human rights protections 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.440 in Australia. I don't have a federal human Rights Act 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.240 and that was repeatedly called out by a number of countries. 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:08.640 Estonia recommends to Australia to one enact a national Human 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.760 Rights Act to raise thee of criminal responsibility to at 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.360 least fourteen years with old exceptions in load with international but. 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:20.520 Within that also child rights, so particularly the age of 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.720 criminal responsibility and the fact that we still lock up 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:27.400 ten year olds which disproportionately overlaps then with First Nations communities. 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.240 How do we compare to other countries when it comes 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:31.559 to incarcerating children. 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:38.320 We are well behind most other comparative liberal democracies. You know, 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.480 fourteen is really the absolute minimum that children should be 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.400 held criminally responsible under human rights law. And the fact 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.280 that we have most jurisdictions around Australia well below that, 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.760 going down to ten even twelve, and we don't have 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.760 this protected even at the federal level, so we are 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.840 an outlier in this regard. The Australian government will work 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.640 closely with states and territories to consider any recommendations that 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:07.719 fall within their constitutional responsibility, and. 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.079 Part of Australia's defense when it comes to criminal laws 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.640 and the criminal justice system in particular, was to point 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.600 to the responsibility of states and territories in that role. 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:17.559 Is that a fair session to make. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.600 That was definitely part of the government delegations explanation and 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:26.160 response was the complexity of our federal system under international 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.400 law that is utterly irrelevant. Many countries have federal jurisdictions, 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:34.200 but your obligation as an entire nation state under your 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.720 human rights law obligations are to make sure that this 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:41.120 is implemented. So it really does mean that these responsibilities 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.560 to uphold people's rights flow through from the federal government 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:46.520 who has the power to make the treaties, but they 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.360 go through consultation processes with the states before they do that, 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.120 and the states then also have a responsibility to ensure 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.439 that Australia is complying with its responsibilities, but ultimately to 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.320 making sure that it's protecting everybody's human rights. So it's 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.600 not a defense in any way. It actually shows that 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.680 those obligations flow all the way through to all levels 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:07.720 of government in the country. 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.240 The UN says Australia should adopt a human rights Act. 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:12.760 How would that work? 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.199 Well, it's not just the UN Human Rights Council that's 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.600 saying that, it's also the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.720 Rights that did an extensive consultation and review about eighteen 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.040 months ago. The first recommendation was to implement a federal 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.959 Human Rights Act. So far the government has not yet 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:31.880 responded to that Committee inquiry report. It's the missing piece 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:36.040 in our foundational legal structure, in our overall framework. We 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:40.280 don't have anything at national level that binds that all 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.320 together in terms of making sure that all public decision 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:47.080 makers take into account before they make their decisions, whether 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.800 that's to introduce new laws or policies or service delivery, 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.720 about how will this impact on people's rights and if 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.319 people's rights are going to be restricted, then that needs 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.160 to be balanced and done in a proportionate and appropriate way, 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.400 not done on the fly, not done at hoc. And 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.160 we only have that currently in Victoria the Act and 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:09.679 Queensland that do have human Rights acts in place. So 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.840 that's really what's missing and it would be the obvious 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.240 next step for the Urban Ezic government to take. 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.040 So the federal government doesn't have a plan to bring 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.440 in a human Rights Act at this particular time on 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.640 a state level, that we have also seen the popularity 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.440 of reforms like tougher bail laws at old time for 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:31.760 adult crime. So how do we bust out of this 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.480 spiral we get ourselves into when it comes to locking 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:42.480 children up, reinforcing patterns of detention for young people in particular, 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.280 how do we bust ourselves out of that cycle when 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.920 there is no political will, particularly at the state and 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:50.080 territory level to do so. 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:52.720 Look, I mean, law and order politics are definitely something 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.360 that we're seeing take hold in so many places, and 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.959 they're easy, they're easy and lean into where people's conserve 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.600 and fears are. But at the same time, we know 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.120 that they don't actually make communities safer. And the point 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:08.720 of having these sort of human rights legal frameworks is 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.720 that human rights actually gives us a guidance and a 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:15.200 roadmap for how to find the right balance and not 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:19.200 doing knee jerk responses after something terrible has happened, which 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.560 is what led to Victoria's vail laws, for example, being 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:27.080 drastically tightened up. Contrary to human rights, it's more a 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:31.400 question of political priority at the moment and the concerns 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:33.600 people have in the community at the moment, around cost 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:39.080 of living, around housing crisis, around racism, around not feeling engaged. 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.680 They all connect to human rights principles and so really 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.640 human rights is about everyone has the right to education, 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.000 to a habitable house, to a decent standard of living, 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.480 and really it's about connecting and showing that these are 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.320 the issues that Australians actually care about. They are things 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.920 that have been highlighted in Royal commissions, from robodebt to 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:02.280 aged care, to disability and human rights actually provides a 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:06.640 framework for guiding whichever government is in power on how 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:08.960 to respond to that in a way that takes people's 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:09.840 concerns seriously. 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.600 Caitlin, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:27.080 Also in the news, Queensland Senator Matt Canavan says he 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.120 won't be challenging David Little Proud for the Nationals leadership. 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:32.960 A spill is expected to take place today after Rogue 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:35.640 Natz and p Column Boyce announced plans to put his 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.920 name forward for the top drop. Boyce accepts he doesn't 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.760 have the numbers to win, but insists both Little Proud 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.480 and Liberal leader Susan Lee need to go in order 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:49.200 for the parties to rebuild and criminals will no longer 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.920 be able to leverage glowing character references to reduce their sentences. 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.200 Under changes of being introduced in New South Wales this week, 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:58.560 the state will become the first in the country to 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.200 prevent good character been considered during sentencing hearings for all 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.760 criminal offenses. The move has been heralded by survivors of 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.880 sexual abuse as a monumental shift. I'm Daniel James. You'll 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.040 be listening to seven AM. We'll be back tomorrow.