1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: From the newsroom. 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 2: I used to come to. 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Gooday there, I'm Andrew Bucklow. Well, right now, we're in 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: the midst of a new space race. The US is 5 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: planning to send astronauts to the Moon in just a 6 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: few years time, but China has bigger plans. China is 7 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: planning to not just visit the Moon. They are planning 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: to stay. They're building a permanent station on the lunar 9 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: surface as well as get this, a nuclear power plant. 10 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: Now. 11 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: China claims it'll be used for research and exploration, but 12 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: some think there may be a darker motive behind the scenes. 13 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: We'll investigate in this episode. Professor Allan Duffy is a 14 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: friend of the show. Here's an astronomer from swin. Bernie 15 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: joins me. Now, gooday, Allen, thanks trying me. China has 16 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: pretty big plans for the Moon. They're hoping to land 17 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: astronauts on the lunar surface by twenty thirty and then 18 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,959 Speaker 1: they're aiming to build a space station on the Moon 19 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: by twenty thirty five. What can you tell me about 20 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: this space station? 21 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: So this is the culination of decades of work. China 22 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: first had its astronauts in space in two thousand and 23 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,199 Speaker 2: three they achieved historic first landing on the far side 24 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: of the Moon with a robot just a few years 25 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: ago and have had this plan all while to have 26 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 2: an operational base in the south pole of the Moon. 27 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 2: This is where all the world's focused is, which we'll 28 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: maybe get into wine a bit, But they have, at 29 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: least with partnerships with Russia and many other countries, created 30 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 2: a vision for what they see as a permanent presence 31 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 2: on the Moon, potentially even powered by nuclear power. It 32 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: is fairly ambitious, to say the least, but with their 33 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: successes in recent years, you really wouldn't count against them 34 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 2: that they might achieve it. 35 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: So this space station is meant to be called the 36 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: International lunut Research Station. What will it be used for? 37 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 2: So there's an opportunity to learn more about the Moon, 38 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: bringing new kinds of scientific equipment. There are recognized opportunities, 39 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 2: particularly by private companies, to mine the Moon. There are 40 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: water ice reserves on the south Pole. That water, of 41 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: course can be used for the astronauts, but it can 42 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: also be split into hydrogen oxygen, and that is rocket fuel, 43 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 2: and I think that's the key. It certainly is for 44 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: the US and NASA, who are the competitors in this race. 45 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 2: The idea of using the Moon's resources can refuel satellites, 46 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 2: but it can also refuel rockets on their way to Mars. 47 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: And just like NASA, the Chinese mission really sees the 48 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 2: Red Planet as the ultimate goal. But the first key 49 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: stepping stone, if you will, is the Moon. That is 50 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 2: the launch pad for both of these superpowers. 51 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: So this space station that they're hoping to build by 52 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: twenty thirty five, will humans be based there initially or 53 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: is that coming later? 54 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: So it's going to be built at least they've outlined 55 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: by robots initially, so they don't envisage people doing that 56 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 2: initial construction. I'm sure there will be a few astronauts 57 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 2: or two visiting, and certainly by at twenty twenty eight, 58 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 2: they want to achieve an astronaut walking on the Moon, 59 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: just one year after NASA's return. So this idea of 60 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 2: having maybe astronauts plant the flag and then robots get 61 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 2: on with the heavy, dirty, dangerous business. I'm actually building 62 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: the base in the five to seven years thereafter, but 63 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: roughly speaking from out twenty thirty five, their plans are 64 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: that people should be able to live there. The habitats 65 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: will be built. The power is available, the oxygen, the water, 66 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: it's all ready to go for the people. 67 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: Let's speak about power, because recently it's been revealed that 68 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: China has partnered with Russia to build a nuclear power 69 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: plant on the Moon to help power this ILRS space station. 70 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: Why is nuclear power a good option for the Moon. 71 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: So it allows you to get a lot of power 72 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: from a very small source, if you will. So, NASA 73 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: has been using what are called radioisotope thermoelectric generators or artgs. 74 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: Is perhaps you going to appreciate why we abbreviate so 75 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: these RTGs give you a lot of power power your electronics, 76 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: your robots, you're a heating and lighting if it's a 77 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: crude presence, all of those kinds of uses draw a 78 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: lot of power. And if you want to do that 79 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: purely by solar panels, you certainly can, but it will 80 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: take an enormous amount of these panels. Even where there 81 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: are certain locations on the Moon that are almost completely illuminated. 82 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 2: The sun effectively never sets as far as they're concerned. 83 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 2: So that's an option. But I think they've got this 84 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: idea in mind to give really the start for the 85 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: base building that way, you only need to bring up 86 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 2: via one rocket an RTG and that provides all the 87 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 2: power that you need for the robots that are operating. 88 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 2: It's a good idea, and it's in fact also NASA's idea, 89 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: so they are absolutely pursuing this as well. And it's 90 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 2: just when it comes to packing the power punch, you 91 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 2: cannot beat a nuclear battery. I think it's a better 92 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: descriptor than a nuclear power plant, at least certainly the 93 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: way I am reading their plans, which are a little hazy, 94 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: it's just a very early days for their announcements. It 95 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: looks like they'll go down the RTG route, which NASA 96 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: has been using successfully for many years already. 97 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: So putting a nuclear battery on the Moon is that risky? Like, 98 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: what if something goes wrong with this thing? Could that 99 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: have serious consequences? 100 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 2: The Moon is highly radioactive already. It is constantly bathed 101 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: in radiation from the Sun from cosmic rays into cellar space, 102 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: so the Moon will not be particularly perturbed if anything 103 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: went wrong. However, launching such a nuclear thistle material from 104 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: the Earth to the Moon, that's the risk. If anything 105 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: goes wrong with the rocket, you have an enormous amount 106 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 2: of fallout spread potentially over vast areas. This is one 107 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 2: of the reasons why NASA, or at least a period, 108 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: stopped using these kinds of nuclear batteries as often for 109 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 2: the simple reason that other nations, as well as across 110 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: the US, were concerned about what would happen if the 111 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: rocket exploded as it was launching and just scattered this 112 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: nuclear material over vast areas. Unfortunately, with the success rates 113 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: of Russian rockets in recent years, I would be very 114 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 2: concerned if they had a nuclear cargo going up. They 115 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: have had a terrible success rate in recent years. China, however, 116 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: is much more sophisticated, much more advanced rocketry. So if 117 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 2: they send up a nuclear battery, I've got a hope 118 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 2: it's the Chinese rocket that's taking up. 119 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: Look and Russian they sound like very ambitious plans, Alan, 120 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: I mean, how do they plan to achieve all of these? 121 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: Would they build the power plants and space station here 122 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: on Earth and try and fly it up or are 123 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: they planning to just build it up there? 124 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. No, they're actually doing it 125 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: in stages, so they're anticipating five heavy lift rockets, so 126 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: somethink of the scale of the Satin five that took 127 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 2: Nassa to the Moon in the first place for the 128 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 2: more recent Spaceic starship. So I think that kind of 129 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: gigantic rocket would be required to take large prefabricated components 130 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: to the Moon. That's going to be all of the electronics, 131 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: the communications gear, and yes, of course the potential nuclear battery, 132 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: as I suspect it will be in practice that is 133 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: not It's not impossible, but yes, it's a big Stretch's 134 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: a long way to putting permanent infrastructure on the Moon 135 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: versus just setting up a lander or rover or indeed 136 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: a person to take a walk. So this has never 137 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: been done before. NASA is attempting it as well in 138 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: the South Pole for the same reasons as China is 139 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: interested there with the water ice. But we've never seen 140 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: this demonstrated. And I think you certainly wouldn't bet against 141 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: China that the Chinese speciency is an incredibly sophisticated and 142 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 2: accomplished organization already, But this is a different level building infrastructure, 143 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: all of what is required to make an operational base. 144 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 2: I would imagine even if you build prefabricated pieces that 145 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: you can bolt together when you're there. It's still going 146 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: to be an impressive side if they do it, and 147 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: the fact they want to do it entirely via robots 148 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: with no humans on the Moon's surface for that stage, 149 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: that is ambitious. There are many first in this plan. 150 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: Certainly the world's attention will be on them to see 151 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: how they fare, and it's going to be very hard 152 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,679 Speaker 2: to hide any mistakes because I very much strongly suspect 153 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: that that NASA will be watching very keyly. 154 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: If you had to have a guess right now, China 155 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: and Russia say they can have this space station and 156 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: the nuclear power plant built by twenty thirty five, yes 157 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: or no, Yes. 158 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: I think China. I think China has the budget for it. 159 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: I think they've got the skills for it. I think 160 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: at the same time, NASA has actually been pulling back 161 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: its plans, most recently with the Trump administration, at least 162 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 2: what has been articulated for NASA's budget. It could be 163 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 2: that they end up beating NASA in building this actual 164 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: operational base, which will be a surprise. That NASA's had 165 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: a headstart for a long time on this. But China 166 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: has a plan and it does tend to stick to it. 167 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: There could be a dark side to China and Russia's 168 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: plans for the moon. Professor Alan Duffy will tell us 169 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: more about that in just a moment. Welcome back, I 170 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: am chatting to Professor Alan Duffy. Now, Alan, The US 171 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: has claimed that China and Russia's plans for the Moon 172 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: may have a sinister side. They think they could be 173 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: weaponizing space. Here's what a general from America's Space Force 174 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: said in an interview last year. 175 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,239 Speaker 3: How big of a challenge does China pose in space? Substantial? 176 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 3: I think that's the best way to describe it. Two 177 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 3: things worrying me most about it. One is the quality 178 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 3: of the capabilities that they're putting on orbit and the 179 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,599 Speaker 3: pace with which they're putting them on orbit. There's just 180 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 3: a number of weapons systems that actually can cause those 181 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 3: problems that we're going to have to contend with in 182 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 3: that contested space, and they are developing them very rapidly. 183 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: What about Russia? 184 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: Does Russia continue to be a space power or a 185 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: space threat? 186 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely? 187 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 3: We monitor and assess that they are still investing in 188 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 3: their space capabilities. They still have the intentions to build 189 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 3: weapons for space, and we are monitoring, assessing and responding 190 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 3: to them. 191 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: Alan, what do you reckon Is there a concern that 192 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: this space station on the Moon could be used for 193 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: military purposes? 194 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: Yes, I think there is. We see space as what 195 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 2: it's called dual use technologies. So the same kind of 196 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: technology that allows you to send a satellite of space, 197 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: the same kind of technology that was first developed to 198 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: send a nuclear bomb right into continent ubilistic missile. So 199 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 2: we have always had this challenge where advances in space 200 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 2: for civilian purposes and scientific purposes always have a military potential. 201 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: The Moon acts as the ultimate high ground in the 202 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: military parlance, so I think there is a challenge. We 203 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: really hope that we don't have a weaponization of the Moon. 204 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: It is one of those areas that has always been 205 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: seen as a preserve of great power, competition in the 206 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: sense of prestige, how good you are as a nation. 207 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: But we haven't had battles around it, and I really 208 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,239 Speaker 2: hope that we don't. There will, however, be the opportunity 209 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: to use the resources of the Moon to refuel those 210 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: rockets to Mars, the satellites around the Earth, and I 211 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 2: strongly suspect some of those satellites will be military satellites, 212 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 2: So the Moon ends up becoming a piece of the 213 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 2: supply chain, if you will, for the military assets in orbit. 214 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 2: That's where this slow encroaching militarization of the Moon can begin, 215 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: not necessarily with weapons on the Moon, but seeing it 216 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 2: as part of the defense sector's key requirement if you 217 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 2: will to be able to continue to have the high 218 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: ground in space, and for advanced militaries like China and 219 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 2: like the US, it all starts with space. 220 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 1: You've touched on this a little bit, and we might 221 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: end on this. So China and Russia obviously have these 222 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: lofty plans to have all these goals achieved by twenty 223 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: thirty five. What is the US planning today? What do 224 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: they want to achieve on the moon? 225 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: So NASA said, Project artimis underway for many years. Australia 226 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 2: is a signed up member. In fact, we will be 227 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 2: sending in the coming years a lunar rover to the 228 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: Moon known as rub So we're right there with NASA 229 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: on this exploration of the moon. Project Artemis is intending 230 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: to see humans walk on the Moon in twenty twenty seven. 231 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: This is going to be beating the Chinese by just 232 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 2: one year. That at least is the plan, and it 233 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 2: will see the first woman and also a person of 234 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: color walk on the Moon. So it will be a 235 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: very exciting moment where it's for all humanity, not just mankind. 236 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 2: In that return. After that, however, it's all influx. It 237 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 2: was planned that we would have an operational space station 238 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 2: around the Moon known as Gateway, that there would be 239 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: installations on the Moon as part of the permanent presence 240 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 2: for humanity on the Moon. All of that is now 241 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 2: up in the air with the Trump administration's budget cuts. 242 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: It now seems that Elon Musk wants us just to 243 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: skip the Moon and go straight to Mars. It's really unclear. 244 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 2: I think I speak for a number of scientists when 245 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: I say we hoped, however, that we retain this focus 246 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: on the Moon. There's so much more we need to 247 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 2: learn about the Moon because it tells us about the Earth, 248 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: and I really hope we keep that focus in these 249 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 2: twenty twenties with Project Arnymus and get our base if 250 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: you will, at the South Pole working for scientific discovery, 251 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 2: and Australia has a key role to play in that. 252 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: It is such an exciting time and who knows what's 253 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: going to happen over the next ten years. Professor Alan Duffy, 254 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to tell 255 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: us all about it. 256 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. 257 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: Whatever happens, you can guarantee you it's going to cost 258 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: a lot of money. Actually, do you know the main 259 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: reason it's so expensive to build on the Moon Because 260 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: the costs are out of this world. I'll see myself out. 261 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. I'll chat you again tomorrow. 262 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: Follow 's Subscribe to from the Newsroom 263 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: Wherever you get your podcasts.